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Saturday Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 09:03:50 PM EST
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There must be readers with something besides the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case to talk about. If so, here's a place.

If you want to continue the Zimmerman discussion, you can do that here too. It's an open thread, all topics welcome

I'm going to watch Key Largo on PBS, and check for new developments in the John Edwards and Kim DotCom/ MegaUpload cases.

< Reaction to the George Zimmerman Bail Hearing | Witness Interview Supporting Zimmerman Was Day After Shooting >

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    Saturday Night Open Thread | 60 comments (60 topical)

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    It's Sunday (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by lentinel on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:14:29 AM EST
    in France.

    They are having a presidential election.

    They hold their election on a Sunday, when people are able to vote.

    I don't know why the US insists on Tuesdays, when people must juggle whatever their desire is to vote with the fact that they have to put in a long day at work and then face interminable lines and abuse in order to vote for someone in whom they are not that interested in anyway.

    Another thing, in France, they do not appear to have exit polls - something I consider an invasion of privacy and a flagrant attempt to influence the outcome of an election.

    Our democracy is in deep trouble.
    I'm not at all convinced that it still exists in any form whatsoever.

    And even in states (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:16:11 AM EST
    that have early voting, conservatives are enacting laws to stop or curtail it. There seems to be a concerted effort by the GOTP to making voting in the US as inconvenient as possible. Go figure.

    Parent
    constitution (none / 0) (#20)
    by bocajeff on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:53:23 AM EST
    there is that silly requirement in the constitution. And as a (some view archaic) notion that Sundays are for church. I personally think it should be in person on Saturday and Sunday.

    I've voted in 8 presidential elections, coming up on #9, and have never waited for more than an hour...An hour every 4 years to cast a vote. No problem. It's much less burdensome than jury duty. Not to mention absentee ballots.

    Not really much of a problem.

    Parent

    You've probably never (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:13:47 AM EST
    voted in a large metropolitan area. Where waiting can be quite lengthy. Saturday, Sunday, all freaking week. I don't care. (Sunday is for church?? Whose church? That should be irrelevant to government.) But limiting voting to a work day is stupid. Legislators should looking for ways to making voting easier and more convenient, not more difficult. This country has a horrible record of turnout. Granted, apathy and general American malaise is probably the biggest reason. Unfortunately Americans are not the most brilliant bulbs in world.

    Parent
    I was looking (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by lentinel on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:21:23 AM EST
    at the French version of Huffington Post.

    As of 5PM their time, they had a turnout of 80%.

    I think that the easy access for the voter has something to do with it.

    And - as far a Sunday being for Church...
    Church is a big deal there. At least at much as for the US. But I don't get the impression that the Church dictates policy the way it wound up happening in the US.

    But, even for a Church-goer, it is not like having to have had to face an eight hour work day and then think about waiting for an hour (at least!) to vote for someone in order to prevent someone else from getting elected.

    Parent

    Not true (none / 0) (#30)
    by fish on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:37:54 PM EST
    Church is NOT important in France.  In fact, France is the most "nominally" Catholic country in Europe.  Americans are much more religious than Europeans in general, and more so than the French in particular.

    Parent
    You (none / 0) (#32)
    by lentinel on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:45:42 PM EST
    are entitled to your opinion.

    But I disagree with it.

    The Church is very important in France.
    They celebrate many saint's days during the year as holidays.
    Much more than the US.

    But - as I said, the Church does not dictate national policy - or have politicians bending over forwards and backwards to accommodate their doctrines.

    In any case, people get out and vote in France - 80% by current estimation - one reason being that they can without breaking their backs to do so.

    Parent

    I have to (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by lentinel on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:25:52 AM EST
    disagree with you.

    Sunday voting would enable many more people to vote.

    Even you say that you vote once every four years, but elections are held more frequently than that -- every two years - not to mention special elections.

    In any case, it is my opinion and my impression that the US wants to make it as difficult as possible for people to cast their ballots.

    As I mention below, as of 5PM, they are prediction a turnout of 80%. Eighty percent. Compare that with the dismal turnout for our elections.

    Parent

    Turnout was 80% (none / 0) (#46)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:44:23 PM EST
    We ought to be ashamed.

    Parent
    Down from 84% in last election. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Angel on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:52:49 PM EST


    Parent
    More on the French election. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by lentinel on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:49:18 PM EST
    The polls are about to close nationwide.

    AND

    NO EXIT POLLS.

    Results will be announced after all the polls are closed.

    I think that we should ban exit polls.
    They are manipulative.
    They are invasive;
    In the land of the secret ballot, they should be outlawed.

    I encourage anyone who is asked by a pollster to divulge the person they voted for to tell the pollster to go fk themselves.

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Zorba on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 04:52:03 PM EST
    I hate "exit polls."

    Parent
    Reliable exit polls (none / 0) (#41)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 07:15:34 PM EST
    are one of the few checks we have on irregularities in reported voting results.  I'm all for exit polls.  If you think they should not be reported early so as to affect the vote in later voting states, I would agree.  

    Parent
    the exit pols in '04 (5.00 / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 07:44:28 PM EST
    didn't serve as much of a check..

    America either praises Jesus at the sudden, miraculous turn of events, or just goes back to sleep..

    Parent

    It's all about (none / 0) (#44)
    by Zorba on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 07:48:15 PM EST
    "reliable."  You make an excellent point about checking irregularities.  However, I do believe that early reporting can and does definitely affect voting results in Western states, as you suggested.
    And you also have to know who is responsible for the polls.  There are polls, and then there are polls.  It totally depends upon who is paying for and running the polls.  

    Parent
    Are we talking about a bandwagon (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:10:35 PM EST
    effect? If so, it shouldn't even have been close (for Kerry) in Ohio in '04.

    Parent
    We can still (none / 0) (#50)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 12:05:09 AM EST
    have exit polling while regulating their release to require the results be held back until all polls throughout the country have closed.  

    Parent
    Hmm... (none / 0) (#39)
    by jbindc on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 04:31:52 PM EST
    CNN is reporting that, based on exit polls, the challenger is claiming victory.

    And why just Sunday voting?  When I lived in Texas 15 years ago, we had early voting for simething like 2 weeks.

    (And Sunday might be hard because a lot of polling places ate actially in church facilities.)

    Parent

    CNN (none / 0) (#43)
    by lentinel on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 07:47:47 PM EST
    was wrong.

    There were "preliminary results" released, but only after the polls closed at 8PM in France.

    CNN was also wrong in predicting that the French would abstain from voting. In fact, 80% did so.

    Parent

    Sure they do (none / 0) (#52)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 07:24:59 AM EST
    They just weren't allowed to release the results until the polls closed.


    Parent
    Distinction without a difference. (none / 0) (#54)
    by lentinel on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 09:19:03 AM EST
    The point is, they were not allowed to influence voters.

    Whereas, in the USA, they'll even call an election before the polls have closed.

    That was my point: the media influencing election results. The media manipulating the electorate.

    You either don't get what I'm saying, or it doesn't matter to you.

    Parent

    I get whay you're saying (none / 0) (#56)
    by jbindc on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 10:21:28 AM EST
    But there is a huge difference.  Exit polling is done fresh after someone has voted - to get their thoughts and impressions without interference from election results and news helping them shape their opinion.  Polling done days after the results of an election are known skews the data - especially on questions like "Why did you vote / not vote for Candidate Smith?"

    Saying that there are no exit polls is false, when what you mean to say is that, under French law, the results of exit polls are embargoed until after the polls closed, except to those few groups that pay for the data and are granted early private results.

    Parent

    Watergate crook... (none / 0) (#1)
    by desertswine on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 09:29:13 PM EST
    Chuck Colson has died. If anyone remembers Watergate.

    I surely do. Lots more (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by oculus on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 09:45:24 PM EST
    interesting than Martin/Zimmerman.  

    Parent
    Oh yes, I remember. (none / 0) (#3)
    by Angel on Sat Apr 21, 2012 at 10:10:04 PM EST


    Parent
    Oh yes, I remember (none / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 08:57:35 PM EST
    At least Colson did his time and did something different with his life,

    Parent
    Yes, something else to talk about (none / 0) (#4)
    by observed on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:10:06 AM EST
    Sayonara. I've had enough of TL.
    Adios (3.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Rojas on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:14:42 AM EST
    and don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on your way out.

    Jeralyn's advocacy in this case and in other cases she has covered here at TalkLeft should be applauded not derided. She is a rock.

    Parent

    The weather in KZ? (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:22:34 AM EST


    Parent
    I'm going to spend my time on (none / 0) (#6)
    by observed on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:23:37 AM EST
    blogs which are devoted to fact-based advocacy, even on peripheral issues.

    Parent
    Ha. Good luck. (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:24:34 AM EST


    Parent
    I may have better luck than here. (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by observed on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:27:27 AM EST
    Specifically, I felt that TL crossed a line in the discussion of Zimmerman, Neighbordhood Watch, "vigilantism", and gun laws.
    Jeralyn repeatedly deleted comments which gave the correct relation between Zimmerman and the national Neighborhood Watch organization (I can't state the fact, because the comment will be deleted).
    She is welcome to advocate for gun rights, no matter how misguided she is, but twisting facts to support her social theories is something up with which I have put too many times.

    Parent
    Did you ever stop to think how busy (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:29:39 AM EST
    criminal defense attorneys would be if everyone had a firearm?  

    Parent
    Probably not nearly as (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Rojas on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:44:46 AM EST
    busy as the state prosecutors offices have been since we decided the answer to our social ills lay in the mass incarceration of the children of those who are economically disadvantaged.

    Parent
    really, (none / 0) (#21)
    by bocajeff on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:56:24 AM EST
    the idea is to incarcerate the children of the economically disadvantaged? Childish rubbish: The vast majority of the economically disadvantaged don't get in trouble. Don't diminish their lives to make a stupid point. The bigger issue is drug laws, access to competent attorneys, and family dysfunction.

    Parent
    That has been the result (none / 0) (#27)
    by Rojas on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:46:25 AM EST
    the vast majority of those incarcerated are the economically disadvantaged.

    Wholeheartedly agree with this statement:

    The bigger issue is drug laws, access to competent attorneys

    Not so sure about:

    and family dysfunction.

    the pilled out suburban housewife with the self dealing real estate developer husband who built his stake on kickbacks and skimming are as have about as much chance getting caught up in the criminal justice system as getting struck by lightning.

    The young mother who passes a couple hot checks in a period of desperation is going to find her self down in county lockup, perhaps doing trustee duty until here case gets to trial.


    Parent

    They seem to be rather un busy in (none / 0) (#11)
    by redwolf on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 02:47:30 AM EST
    Switzerland where everyone has a gun.

    Parent
    Everyone in the militia has an assault weapon. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:19:38 AM EST
    Your statement is slightly misleading. Handguns are almost non existent. The Swiss army is a militia so all members of the militia keep they weapon at home.

    Parent
    Of all the places I have lived or visited, (none / 0) (#16)
    by Angel on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:34:43 AM EST
    I have never felt more safe than in Switzerland.  There are a lot of guns there but they are carried by TRAINED militia, and ammunition purchase and use is regulated.  Don't be fooled by NRA propaganda.  

    Parent
    Is that the same Switzerland ... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Yman on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 10:30:47 AM EST
    ... where gun carry permits are tightly regulated, usually issued only to private citizens who are in security?  Where not every home has a gun, but many do as part of their military service - mostly long guns rather than concealable handguns?  The same one that issues guns to their regulated, trained, government militia?  Where you have to show a need for carrying a weapon and pass an exam after training?  The same Switzerland that only allows special rapid deployment units and the military police to keep ammunition at home?

    You might be on to something ...

    Parent

    Even TL (none / 0) (#17)
    by CoralGables on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:35:42 AM EST
    has their Fair and Balanced moments :)

    Parent
    But were not such comments (none / 0) (#51)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 12:10:00 AM EST
    deleted only because they were not the topic of the particular thread?

    Parent
    It's just a very (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Rojas on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 08:35:36 AM EST
    distorted view. One really has to be blinded by an agenda to come to such a conclusion.

    Jeralyn is advocating for due process not gun rights. She's been consistent on this. Her advocacy spans administrations democrat and republican. She has been a fervent critic of both when they have sought to diminish the protections in the BORs.

    I just don't get how people don't get it.


    Parent

    Interestingly, TL seems to have (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Towanda on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 12:06:56 PM EST
    deleted TL's own comment in a recent thread that told commenters to stick to the topic, when they actually were addressing a statement in the diary by TL (another sideslap at neighborhood groups).

    It has been very difficult to determine what is off-topic when watching others address a statement by TL and being told that it then became off-topic.

    Parent

    No. Factual statements were deleted, (none / 0) (#60)
    by observed on Tue Apr 24, 2012 at 08:55:49 AM EST
    while insinuations and guilt by association comments by TL (on the same subject) were left.
    Integrity  was absent.


    Parent
    Has Zimmerman/Martin (none / 0) (#7)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:24:11 AM EST
    "news" reached Astana?  

    Parent
    It's been a good week for movies on TV here. (none / 0) (#12)
    by EL seattle on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 03:01:09 AM EST
    Tonight the local PBS station showed the classic 1938 screwball comedy Bringing Up Baby with Cary Grant and Katherine Hepburn. And earlier in the week AntennaTV showed Holiday, another 1938 Hepburn/Grant movie that I personally think is almost perfect.

    It's been a long time since I've seen Key Largo, but some scenes from that movie are burned into my brain (accurately, I hope). Like a scene where one character desperately asks Bogart if knew a weapon was empty because of its weight.

    Why I dislike Atrios (none / 0) (#26)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:42:49 AM EST
    In one post.

    Link

    You dislike Atrios (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 11:59:02 AM EST
    for some reason that is still unclear to me even with a link, and you  like Sullivan for some reason that is unclear to me.......sigh

    Parent
    No segue: how is your son doing? (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:30:26 PM EST


    Parent
    He has some pressure sores on his (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 12:45:39 PM EST
    back from the vest, that scared me.  I thought they would want to take it off and place him on a traction weight again but we are treating them first, and see if we can get in another 4 weeks. My husband and an ortho tech made a special pad together to try to redistribute the pressure on his back, and he seems to be doing better this weekend.

    We were at the hospital on Friday doing all this stuff in their wound treatment clinic area.  And one of the techs is showing me how to put on a special wound ointment and Josh causes me to "FAIL" in the Bible Belt again.

    He says out loud, "It puts the lotion on its skin.  It puts the lotion on its skin and it puts the lotion in the bucket."  It's from the movie 'Silence of the Lambs', but Josh got it from the movie 'Joe Dirt'.  He hasn't seen 'Silence of the Lambs' but try telling that to the hospital staff :)

    Parent

    Probably the most interesting (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by oculus on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 01:15:10 PM EST
    commentary they've heard in months.  

    Parent
    Most likely (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 01:23:01 PM EST
    We are all very proper down here, except my family.

    Parent
    Simple (none / 0) (#36)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 02:04:21 PM EST
    The liberal moderate isn't evil.  I don't like the assumption that just because the far right is insane, the far left doesn't have it's own issues.  Is it so hard to accept that reasonable people more towards the center (wanting a safety net but also wanting fiscal restraint for example) can fairly hold their positions.

    The Atrios post basically assumes that such people are ignorant sheep following the musings of middle of the road writers who know nothing.

    I think that is extremely unfair. I don't like when the right does it so I can't consistently like when the people closer to me in ideology do it.

    Sullivan is middle left. So are most of the writers and pundits Atrios rants against.  I think those voices are valid even though I disagree with much of what they say.  

    Parent

    Sullivan (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 02:34:31 PM EST
    is NOT middle left. He is on the right.

    And the "middle" is largely undefined. What defines the "middle" is different almost every election. Do you think the "tea party" is the middle now?

    Parent

    The point is that the liberal moderate does (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by ruffian on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 09:00:23 PM EST
    not need a third, more centrist party. They already have the Democrats. Friedman, et al pretend that the Democratic party is in the grip of the far left. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Parent
    Disagree (none / 0) (#59)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 03:26:17 PM EST


    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Yman on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 09:38:42 AM EST
    Sullivan is middle left.

    That speaks volumes right there.

    Not what intended, ..

    ... but volumes...

    Parent

    Disagree. (none / 0) (#38)
    by Addison on Sun Apr 22, 2012 at 02:34:56 PM EST
    This argument quickly becomes a quagmire of competing subjective definitions of the "center", but I want to point out that I disagree entirely that Andrew Sullivan (or, for that matter, most of the "writers and pundits Atrios rants against") are "center left".

    Now, it's true that since 2008 Andrew Sullivan (unlike most of the aforementioned writers and pundits) has been getting observably closer to "center left". But Sullivan still supports and/or has residual sympathy for a flat tax, for goodness sake! Read the first chapter of "The Conservative Soul" for much, much more evidence of his center right status. He's not center left, not yet.

    Parent

    Middle Left (none / 0) (#58)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Apr 23, 2012 at 03:25:57 PM EST
    I disagree. Not important enough to argue over.  If you want to call Sullivan conservative, that's fine.  He rejects the liberal label.

    I use the labels only as conversation shortcuts.

    Parent

    Saturday Night Open Thread | 60 comments (60 topical)

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