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Monday Open Thread

I'll be busy the rest of the day, here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    What a surprise :-( (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by MO Blue on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 03:10:00 PM EST
    So, Obama is the least liberal Democratic president since World War II, and presumably the least liberal since Woodrow Wilson. link

    Based on Keith Poole's Voteview which has produced estimates of presidential positions on a left-right scale since 1945.

    Funny how it's now accepted (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Yman on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 03:36:32 PM EST
    If you had said something like this back in 2008 at the Orange, TPM, HuffPo, etc., you would have been met with howls of derision and a litany of insults.

    Now his supporters practically yawn when you state the obvious.

    Parent

    Incorrect (3.00 / 1) (#8)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 03:40:59 PM EST
    Only fools thought he was going to be a liberal crusader.  Most of us thought he was serious about compromise.

    The problem is not that he was moderate.  The problem is that people believe that he should have given up on that campaign promise way earlier than he did.

    But a moderate platform was what he ran on.  Any other notion is revisionist history.

    Parent

    Of COURSE he was a moderate (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Yman on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 04:04:19 PM EST
    But what we kept hearing from progressive Obama supporters in 2008 was that he was just "talking-the-talk" and riding the PPUS in order to attract moderate Republicans and Independents.  He's really "one of us".  A pretty easy sell when you have almost no voting record and your campaign consists mostly of vague slogans - "Hope" "Change", and "Yes we can!", etc.

    "Don't worry about it.  What Obama really means is ..."

    Then there were the few specific promises he made that showed his progressive bona fides:

    He will veto FISA compromise.  He will repeal the Bush tax cuts (or at least let them expire).  He'll renegotiate that horrible NAFTA that Hillary claimed was a "boon to our economy".  Import drugs to make them affordable!  Any bill I sign must have a public option!  HCR negotiations will be in public, televised on CSPAN, with no more "backroom" talks (ala HC) - or throw a public plan under the bus and make backroom deals with the drug companies.  Windfall oil profits tax to fund alternative energy programs ... or not.  He'll restore Superfund money to clean up our contaminated sites ... or not.  Reel in Bush's expansion of executive authority ... or expand them further.  Close Guantanamo within one year.  Comprehensive immigration reform my first year ...

    ... etc., etc., etc.

    "Revisionist history" indeed ...

    Parent

    That's not what I heard or said (none / 0) (#18)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 04:55:25 PM EST
    There is the myth of all of the Obama supporters who were secretly fooled.

    The reality is that the only people who promote this version of the history are folks who weren't Obama fans in the first place.

    There are thousands of Obama doubters who say that all of their Obama supporting fans believed he'd be Super Liberal but they can never point to anyone online or otherwise who was making that exact point.

    My working theory is that all of these people were talking to one delusional Obama supporter screwing it up for the rest of us.

    Parent

    what is an "Obama doubter"? (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 05:13:25 PM EST
    the term makes no sense apart from the term "Obama believer"

    you've already said that "only fools" thought Obama was going to be a liberal crusader, but clearly those fools were not among the "Obama doubters"

    so you concede it's not a "myth" that there were Obama supporters who were "secretly" (whatever that means) fooled?

    Parent

    I don't (none / 0) (#47)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:07:24 PM EST
    Concede anything other than the fact that I knew know one who believed Obama would performing the miracles people now spend every day blasting him for not pulling off.

    Parent
    well, you know (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:38:29 PM EST
    it's one thing for Obama to be a "liberal crusader" & quite another for Obama to govern more like a liberal Democrat than like a moderate Republican

    better negotiating skills would be helpful, too

    Parent

    Straw "miracles" - heh (none / 0) (#54)
    by Yman on Tue Feb 07, 2012 at 01:33:19 PM EST
    Funny how campaign promises and slogans of "Yes we can!" suddenly changed into unrealistic expectations of "miracles" after the election.

    Parent
    Congratulations, ... except ... (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Yman on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 07:25:16 PM EST
    ... I wasn't talking about you specifically, and no one said anything about "all" Obama supporters.

    But those "myths" sure are easier to knock down when you build 'em yourself out of straw, huh?  As for your "working theories", ...

    ... it's always nice to end the day with a good laugh ...

    Parent

    These "myths" are of your own making, (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 08:09:17 PM EST
    and are designed to allow you to "win" whatever argument you're making; it's something we are quite used to getting from you.

    There is no question there were, and are, Obama supporters who, when Obama kept playing to the center-right, talked themselves into believing that Obama was a master chessman, playing a multi-dimensional game where "checkmate" would be the revelation of a truly progressive agenda.  

    They are still waiting, and still, somewhat desperately, reading implied progressive motives where it really is clear no such motives exist.

    Now, you keep insisting that Obama never explicitly declared himself to be any kind of liberal, but is closing Guantanamo a progressive goal or a conservative one?  Is rolling back the Bush executive power grab a progressive goal or a conservative one?  Is declaring himself to be a proponent of single-payer, and later, a public option, a progressive goal or a conservative one?  Is promising transparency a progressive goal or a conservative one?

    Do you see how easy it is to draw people into believing something, without ever labeling one's self as one thing or another?

    Your "working theory" is, really, to laugh; you must be having an off day.

    Parent

    It's easy to see (none / 0) (#48)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:10:17 PM EST
    I think you have bought into a certain narrative as deeply as anyone.

    There is nothing Obama could ever do to gain your support and it has been that way for some time.

    The question is why you think that is so much different than the most stubborn Obama fan?

    You and they are two sides of the same coin.

    Parent

    Poor choice of words perhaps (none / 0) (#49)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 11:14:53 PM EST
    But I think the people who believed Obama was going to usher in some liberal utopia (or even wanted that) were far smaller than Anne portrays.  The profile  of the average Obama voter was so diverse that focusing your every consideration of an Obama supporter in one small subset is just wrong.

    When you have numbers that big you are getting people voting for hundreds of different  reasons and with hundreds of different expectations.

    I am reminding Anne that just like liberals, libertarians and conservatives can oppose Obama for completely unrelated reasons, those that approve can do so for just as many reasons themselves.

    it would be as if I called her a conservative just because she and Rush think Obama is a failure.

    Parent

    Or, he's the most conservative Democratic (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 03:43:22 PM EST
    president of the modern era...

    Is there a difference between "least liberal" and "most conservative?"  For me, yes - I haven't found a whole lot in Obama that I would be comfortable calling "liberal" at all, much less "least liberal!"

    The point is that Obama's done nothing to move us left - and he'd have had to move quite a bit to the left to counter the greater move to the right that the GOP has made, just to keep us where we were three years ago.

    Two parties, same destination, different speed.

    Parent

    The semantics (none / 0) (#10)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 03:59:58 PM EST
    1. Don't matter, which is the beauty of the chart in the original story.  It draws a line and on one side of the line are conservative policies and on the other side are liberal policies, and no matter how you cut it, Obama is on the liberal side of that line.  

    2. Have you noted how little distance there is between Obama and our most liberal presidents?  This is a chart which really is key to the battles we've been having over the past 12 months about whether Obama is some kind of a closeted conservative.  The chart clearly shows that he is not.  He's liberal. Just slightly less liberal than Clinton for example when you look at all of the policies and the big picture.

    This study takes the argument we've been having and tries to answer the question and the answer is not what you believe it to be.

    3. I don't think Obama vowed to move the country left and I never expected him to.  

    Parent

    Perspective (5.00 / 0) (#13)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Feb 06, 2012 at 04:06:32 PM EST
    This really is a very helpful chart the more I look at it.  Good example of something the chart visually highlights:

    The distance between Obama and Clinton is roughly the same as the gap between Reagan and Bush I.

    Given that gap, do we view Bush I as a liberal?

    Of course not because the gap is, when you take