Friday Open Thread

Here's a new open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Congrats to Dadler Jr. and his band (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Dadler on Fri May 22, 2015 at 11:07:03 AM EST
    My man Eli... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by kdog on Fri May 22, 2015 at 11:52:59 AM EST
    It's awesome that he's sticking with the music D...I expect to see him one day in the horn section on the circuit!

    And good to see you off hiatus.  Hope all is well.


    I guess the Christian right will (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Anne on Fri May 22, 2015 at 11:28:22 AM EST
    have to find a different family to be the poster children for purity and perfection, now that it has been revealed that Josh Duggar, one of the "19 Kids and Counting" Duggar family, sexually molested underage girls (who, from the reading of the police reports, appear to have been his own sisters), and his family covered it up.

    It's giving me a serious case of the creeps.

    Well, I'm sure his parents (none / 0) (#3)
    by Zorba on Fri May 22, 2015 at 11:43:39 AM EST
    Forgave him.  And, most importantly, I'm sure they all sincerely believe that God and Jesus have forgiven him.  (Don't know about the victims, though.)
    Ugh.  And he has kids of his own, doesn't he?  I'd be more than a little nervous about that, if I were his wife.    
    I'm creeped out, too.

    Well, it's practically beyond question ... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:43:36 PM EST
    ... that God has forgiven Josh Duggar, because Josh himself attested to that yesterday in his announcement that he's resigning his position as lobbyist for the Family Research Council. Maybe he and the Rev. Matt Maleka, the gay-bashing gay pastor who was outed the other day, can get together and form a new organization.

    (Sigh!) So many right-wing Christians, but so few lions.


    What do (none / 0) (#30)
    by FlJoe on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:53:00 PM EST
    have against lions? Those meat puppets are rotten to the core, suitable only for rat poison at best.

    "Get that for me... (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 22, 2015 at 11:47:25 AM EST
    .....would ya Deidre?"

    Never seen the show.  No idea what their affiliation is, doubt it's Catholic.  But every time I see a reference to that show I think of the above.

    Personally anyone who wants 19 kids is a red flag.


    They are some kind of Protestant Evangelicals (none / 0) (#6)
    by jbindc on Fri May 22, 2015 at 11:53:45 AM EST
    Who are part of the Quiverfull movement.

    And while his behavior cannot be excused, the media reporting on this makes it was even creepier and suggest these things occurred while he was an adult, while in fact, he, too was underage (he was 14-15).


    The worst (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:05:39 PM EST
    part is the dad withheld the information though I guess it would be hard to accept that your child did this kind of thing.

    There is so much, it is hard to (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Anne on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:34:06 PM EST
    rank which is the worst, but notably absent from much of what I've read is any indication that these young girls got any help dealing with being molested by their brother.

    One detail that just makes my stomach hurt is this:

    Jim Bob told police in 2006 that when Josh returned home in 2003, Jim Bob, accompanied by some of his church elders, took Josh to Arkansas State Trooper, Jim Hutchens. Jim Bob knew Hutchens personally. Hutchens did not take any official action and instead gave Josh a "very stern talk." As In Touch magazine reports exclusively in this week's issue, Hutchens is now serving 56-years in prison for child pornography. He took no action on the Duggar case.

    Makes me fear for Joh Duggar's children, too.


    Wow (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 22, 2015 at 01:09:29 PM EST
    that's even worse that what I have read granted I did not read deeply on this subject. I thought he had withheld the info for a year before turning in his son. According to that it was almost a decade.  I seriously doubt the girls will get any help unfortunately.

    Hard to accept (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:07:50 PM EST
    or ........

    Just sayin.


    Yeah (none / 0) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:12:31 PM EST
    I know. Evangelicals need to start cleaning up their ranks for sure. I have to wonder if they ever check anybody out. They seem really gullible to me.

    BTW liked your comment on the focus group. Beltway sure is out of touch for sure.


    Quiverfull (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 22, 2015 at 11:59:01 AM EST
    Learned a new word

    Quiverfull is a movement among some conservative evangelical Protestant couples, chiefly in the United States, but with some adherents in Canada,[1] Australia, New Zealand, Britain and elsewhere.[2] It promotes procreation, and sees children as a blessing from God,[2][3][4] eschewing all forms of birth control, including natural family planning and sterilization.[5][6] Adherents are known as "quiver full", "full quiver", "quiverfull-minded", or simply "QF" Christians. Some refer to the Quiverfull position as Providentialism,[7] while other sources have referred to it as a manifestation of natalism.[8][9] Currently, several thousand Christians worldwide identify with this movement,[5] although entire Christian sects hold many beliefs correlative to those who self-identify as Quiverfull adherents.


    That explains a lot


    The article Anne linked to (none / 0) (#14)
    by sj on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:08:34 PM EST
    makes his age clear.

    But that actually brings up another issue: very often abusers (especially young abusers) have been abused themselves. Where does this particular chain start, I wonder, and how far back does it go?

    Actually, I don't really wonder. It's more of an idle thought, and a reflection that this is all just so sad. And probably so much bigger for that family than it seems to be now.


    Perhaps the delay in this (none / 0) (#17)
    by nycstray on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:16:59 PM EST
    Being reported isn't helping with the media. Also, the family was less than truthful in admitting this, so several reports I've read need adjusting. I believe it was officially reported in 2006 by Harpo Productions, so that could add some age confusion. Still, at 14 you do not touch your sisters, especially the 4 yo  and not reach total creepy factor.

    Children who molest other children (none / 0) (#21)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:32:43 PM EST
    Often have been molested themselves.  There is no evidence yet one way or the other in this particular case, but it is worth noting,

    While he was underage, as well, (none / 0) (#25)
    by Zorba on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:40:01 PM EST
    Does anyone know the age of the victims?
    And most fourteen-year-olds, while still very immature themselves, would know enough not to fondle girls younger than they are, or even their age, if the girls were unwilling.
    The thing that makes it even creepier is how the family "handled" it.

    jbindc: "And while his behavior cannot be excused, the media reporting on this makes it was even creepier and suggest these things occurred while he was an adult, while in fact, he, too was underage (he was 14-15)."

    FWIW, the story I read in the Los Angeles Times said right up front that Josh Duggar was not yet an adult at the time.

    From what else I've read, apparently Daddy Duggar failed to report sonny boy's actions to the authorities for over a year, and the statute of limitations thus expired before they could finish their investigation and consider possible charges.

    Onward, Christian soldiers.


    Of course I do (none / 0) (#35)
    by jbindc on Fri May 22, 2015 at 01:13:46 PM EST
    The irony being, that around here among some commenters and authors at least, if we were talking about a 14 or 15 year old being put in jail or prison for their crimes - not the child of evangelical Christians - there would be more hooting and hollering about how the adolescent brain isn't fully developed, how we should try therapy not prison to save these youngsters instead if ruining their lives forever, yadda yadda yadda. (See Michael Brown, Joran van den Sloot, Trayvon Martin, Dzokhar Tsarnaev, etc.) I mean, there's even a whole section of this blog that is devoted to it.

    I have always maintained, that barring an extremely low IQ, or some sort of brain damage, that yes, 14 and 15 year olds know the difference between right and wrong, especially in clear cut instances such as this. I've been mocked for it and received scathing commentary, but now because it's a Duggar it's shocking that nothing was done.

    Delicious irony (or hypocrisy - your choice).


    I'm less concerned about 14 year old (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by CST on Fri May 22, 2015 at 01:25:26 PM EST
    Josh getting his come-uppance as I am about the fact that his parents covered it up for him, that it happened repeatedly, that he didn't receive therapy, that as far as we know nothing was done for the girls (regarding therapy), that the man they reported it to was involved in child pornography, and that he now uses his position to argue that gays must be kept away from people because they are child-molesters.

    There's a whole lot of reasons to be disgusted by this case, that have nothing to do with Josh's lack of a jail sentence.

    For that matter, I haven't seen anyone say that he should've been sentenced to prison or tried as an adult (which is what the majority of the people here are against in these types of cases).  And excuse me, but not a single person here suggested Tsarnaev didn't deserve prison.  And as far as Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin are concerned, I believe the issue is that they were killed.  So just stop it with the freaking straw person.  


    No straw man - just calling people out (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Fri May 22, 2015 at 01:50:09 PM EST
    1) It's perfectly fine to call the Duggars out on their hypocrisy and level of involvement.  But what about the other girls?  What about their parents?  Did they get any help (if they needed it?)

    2)I know you're smart can use your  brain and extrapolate things like using their age and defining their behaviors and what should be done about them. In many cases, folks around here want to make excuses - except when it deals with people they don't like.

    If you don't like the examples I provided, just comb through the hundreds of comments you and others have made here in relation to any juvenile who is in trouble with the law.  I provided a link to one post here, and there's a whole section here.


    and it's all about how juvenile's (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by CST on Fri May 22, 2015 at 01:59:06 PM EST
    shouldn't be tried as adults.

    Which no one is arguing against in this case.  Not a single person is suggesting that 14 year old Josh had the mental capacity of an adult.  So continue your crusade if you want, but I'm not buying it.

    And feel free to comb through all of my comments, but you won't find what you're looking for.


    Indeed, jbindc, you make a good point here (none / 0) (#41)
    by christinep on Fri May 22, 2015 at 02:11:24 PM EST
    Certainly, this 14 year old was well past the age of reason.  I don't excuse the wrong; and, I'm guessing that you do not condone the alleged actions either. The other obvious thing about this situation, tho, has to be the real and (possibly) presumed role of the father ... a role that could go toward mitigation.

    We all have a bit of the inconsistency--and, maybe, hypocrisy--in our human selves, don't we? So, that people might almost relish when those who preach intolerance are shown to have a dark, ashen double-life is a fact of life and fiction.  That is why Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter" is durable in our society.  It is natural, after all, to vent and say "ah ha" when the tables turn.  That urge is heightened in the case of those who preach the loudest and most vehemently against what they consider immoral behavior being caught in behaviors universally held to be wrong.


    They are (none / 0) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:02:33 PM EST
    independent fundamentalist Baptists which many people myself included consider a cult. Their 19 kids and counting family reminds me of some kind of Warren Jeffs freak show.

    Apparently the attraction (none / 0) (#15)
    by Repack Rider on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:10:49 PM EST
    ...of a show featuring morons is that practically anyone can look at them and feel better about themselves.  There are a plethora of such shows,
    Swamp People, Phil Richardson, the Duggars, the stupid wives of whatever, etc

    Of course, if I were to look at them at all, I would feel bad about myself for doing so.


    Ha (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:17:28 PM EST
    ive been saying this for years about reality shows.  I have found that people can be surprisingly unaware of their own movivations and unappreciative of having it pointed out.

    Well (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:30:26 PM EST
    speaking for myself only as someone who used to watch the Real Housewives I found it to be a replacement for soap operas. Then one day I realized that the whole thing was a farce and soap operas had actual story lines and character development and all these jokers did was encourage the cat fight culture in the media.

    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Repack Rider on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:31:41 PM EST
    I reached all your same conclusions just by HEARING about the show!

    You apparently (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 22, 2015 at 01:11:41 PM EST
    were not as bored as I was at one time. LOL

    It get's way creepier (none / 0) (#22)
    by CST on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:32:48 PM EST
    "When Jim Bob finally did turn Josh in, he took him to Arkansas state trooper Jim Hutchens who failed to report the case. Hutchens is now serving a 56-year sentence in prison for child pornography"



    Josh, (none / 0) (#29)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:52:46 PM EST
    Hypocrisy.... (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:04:38 PM EST
    NYC is abuzz over the rip-off artist selling 30 dollar dirty water dogs to gullible tourists near Ground Zero.

    Dude's a piece of sh*t, but just inside the 9/11 Memorial they're selling polo shirts for 175 dollars.

    Pot meet kettle.  And they both ain't got nuthin' on the Wall St. hustle!

    So much for sacred ground, eh?  Like Chris Rock said, there ain't nuthin' this country won't commercialize.  We're a few years away from 9/11 sales at Macy's.

    ... which has long been considered hallowed ground by many Americans. (In fact, the USS Arizona Memorial is the single most visited site in Hawaii.) But then, you want to see hucksters, hustlers and overpriced kitsch and chachkies, all you have to do is go seven miles east to Waikiki. There, "tacky and garish" is an art form.

    re speech suppression and "Tinker" (none / 0) (#10)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:04:44 PM EST
     I mentioned in previous open thread the situation with the suppression of the hot-or-not contest via facebook page re girls at Mount Si Hs near Seattle Washington. . . .

    the asst principal called me back and said that she regarded and/or the school regarded the H-r-Not contest as disruptive and therefore suppressible per Tinker.

    Agree or doubt?   If you agree or doubt, do you wish to indicate if you are a lawyer, law student or have legal training?

    I have no strong view . . . it is simply less obviously suppressible than the usual things . . .

    I wonder if they should simply have some legal bikini competitions instead . . .

    Speaking only for (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:06:51 PM EST
    my non legal self,  more information please.


    You can use tiny url


    Part of the issue is (none / 0) (#23)
    by jbindc on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:33:15 PM EST
    All or most of the girls (it isn't clear from what I found) didn't consent to this and are trying to stop it.  Seems that alone would be enough for the school to claim a "material disruption" under Tinker.

    If there were a similar site (none / 0) (#26)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:40:03 PM EST
    where the female students divided the boys into "Hunks or Skunks", there would've been lawyers calling up the school district faster than you could say Jack Robinson as soon as they appeared on Facebook.

    But some parents believe (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by jbindc on Fri May 22, 2015 at 12:44:37 PM EST
    "Boys will be boys".

    And to expound on that, ... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 22, 2015 at 01:52:39 PM EST
    ... the activity in question is exclusive to the Mt. Si HS student body, and further its clearly stated and intended target is Mt. Si female students. Those facts should give school administrators the requisite authority to put a stop to it, in the face of student and parental complaints.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that the First Amendment does not exist simply for its own sake. Rather, it is part of a larger whole that is our Constitution, a document which preserves for us always our right to exercise sound judgment in accordance to not only the law itself, but also our own common sense.

    I believe that "Hot or Not" is a form of bullying and as such, it should not be considered as protected speech -- especially since we're talking about the victimization of underage kids.



    For what it's worth, (none / 0) (#40)
    by Zorba on Fri May 22, 2015 at 02:11:16 PM EST
    TMZ is reporting that TLC has pulled the Duggar's  show from their line-up, but:

    Sources familiar with the situation tell TMZ, the fate of the show is uncertain, but there's now so much heat in the wake of Josh Duggar's molestation confession ... the network had to make the decision.
    We're told they absolutely have not made a long-term decision, but it's clearly a bad sign for the show.
    And there's this ... a rep for General Mills tells TMZ, they have already blacklisted the show and removed it from their company's current advertising schedule.

    Take it in what sense thou wilt.  This is TMZ, after all.