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Sunday Open Thread:

Mick Jagger extolling the virtues of work, in 1987, on his solo album Primative Cool. Added touch: The World Trade Center Towers are behind the priest, firefighters and joggers as they go under a freeway overpass.

Enjoy your Sunday, this is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Jagger is jogging, in that video, down (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Peter G on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 12:45:32 PM EST
    the East Side of New York, along the FDR Drive.  Here's another Labor Day tune, Bruce Springsteen doing "John Henry," live on BBC performing the Seeger Sessions.  And another, the Grateful Dead, live in 1987, doing Dylan's "Maggie's Farm."

    Maggie's Farm (none / 0) (#4)
    by Dadler on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 12:58:48 PM EST
    A happy song by Mary Margaret O'Hara (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Dadler on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 12:51:27 PM EST
    And one more ethereal gem (5.00 / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 12:53:31 PM EST
    a new day (none / 0) (#5)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:02:33 PM EST
    now in my favorites! Thanks, Dadler!

    Parent
    75 and still alive! Happy Birthday (5.00 / 8) (#6)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:13:55 PM EST
    to me!  Surprised and pleased to have made the goal I set 15 months ago but not throwing a big party as I intended.  Dinner with friends, instead.  Perfect on a perfect sunny Indian Summer day here on Port Townsend Bay.

    Have a happy, and you are amazing (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Towanda on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:20:41 PM EST
    as you don't look a day over 30.  But then, I just had the Big Birthday that made me eligible for Social Security (not that it will be there when I finally do want to start it), so my aging eyes can't see you well on my screen.  No, wait, blame these newfangled internet toobz thingies.

    Truly, although you have noted that you are advanced in years, I never would have guessed your age from your comments!  In the spirit of this thread of favorite music, you are "Forever Young."

    Parent

    Still can't tell a book by its cover! (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:35:08 PM EST
    Musically, today I'm in an Ella and Simon & Garfunkle mood...moving on to Sinatra, The Beatles, Mel Torme, Benny Goodman and a full plate of jazz after dinner this evening, beginning with Brubeck from the 50s/60s.  Nostalgia!

    Ring any bells with you kids?

    They say that the music you love all your life and stop to listen to when it plays unexpectedly is the music you went through puberty with, danced your first dance to, fell in love the first time to...

    Works for me!

    Parent

    "Thanks for the memories...." (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by the capstan on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 08:24:50 PM EST
    Bob's on YouTube with it.  I'll let you find it for yourself, as my eyes don't work too well tonight.

    (As my aunt used to say, "I'm older than dirt")--and older than you as well.  Happy birthday, youngster!

    Parent

    Love, love, love (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 08:51:06 PM EST
    the Brubeck stuff.  I know it's considered outre by people who are more sophisticated than I, but I love it anyway.

    Parent
    Wishing a Fulfilling, Beautiful Birthday for you! (none / 0) (#30)
    by christinep on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:52:08 PM EST
    'Love the musical memories you suggest. And, I repeat Towanda's Dylan tribute...May you stay Forever Young.

    Since the Bells Are Ringing a bit for me, oldpro, I guess that makes me a woman of a certain age in many ways.  But then, good music from all the decades is good at any age & gets better all along.

    Parent

    Judy Holiday! "The Bells are (none / 0) (#37)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 07:41:01 PM EST
    Ringing" is one of my favorite musical comedies and brings back a lot of memories.  I remember seeing it in an open theatre in Seattle 40-50 years ago.  Love the movie too.

    Thank you!

    Parent

    Happpy Birthday Kid... (none / 0) (#44)
    by desertswine on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 10:14:07 PM EST
    I never saw Goodman (except on tv), but I do remember when Krupa used to play in the window of the Metropole. People used to gather outside on the sidewalk to watch him.

    I did see Ella perform in a club called the Copa (which doesn't exist anymore)back in the sixties. She was magic.

    Parent

    Happy Birthday, oldpro! (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Anne on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:29:05 PM EST
    Dinner with friends sounds lovely - I have to think they are as happy to be celebrating that you have reached another milestone as you are to have such good friends to share it with.

    I know I'm glad for the time - and wisdom - you share here, and wish you only good things for the coming year.

    Enjoy!

    Parent

    Thanks, Anne. Backatcha! (none / 0) (#15)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:45:59 PM EST
    Happy Birthday! (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:06:22 PM EST
    And I hope you have many more!

    Parent
    For you, my friend! (none / 0) (#13)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:39:56 PM EST
    The Way You Look Tonight

    Sinatra and Basie

    Happy Birthday and many happy returns, oldpro!

    Parent

    One of my favorites!! Thanks, kiddo! (none / 0) (#14)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:43:50 PM EST
    Heh! :-) From you, (none / 0) (#17)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:49:27 PM EST
    I'll gladly take 'kiddo!'

    for that, let me give you this one: Ella and Louis.

    Parent

    Just the best. Gershwin...sigh... (none / 0) (#20)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:01:19 PM EST
    So, how are you doin' Jeff?  Not sure I'm catching all of your updates...

    Parent
    haven't made any lately, so I ought to (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:13:55 PM EST
    begin writing one. Finally finished with the antibiotics. They lasted a month, and for a month my brain didn't work, I was sick and dizzy, and felt terrible. But I also had my son, so I couldn't succumb to it.

    Spent a week in Colombia when I took him back. Better than a quick turnaround with a urinary tract infection. Spoke to his headmaster, and I may be teaching at my boy's school next year.

    Surgery on Oct. 21. Still pushing at the gym, and I've lost 21 pounds so far. I'm also beginning to get a waist again, believe it or not.

    And best of all, or worst of all, don't know yet, I met a beautiful young lady, only 35, on the flight back to Atlanta, and she seems to have a crush on me!

    Yes, it's reciprocated... but we live an hour and a half apart. Last week I was getting over the Cipro, but we did see each other yesterday.

    So I'm walking around again with a silly grin. Funny what romance can do!  I don't think it will last, but it surely makes me feel good for now!

    Dogs are fine, and I'm applying for all sorts of jobs, including bus driver. With the UT infection gone, I'd be able to sit for a few hours. Before it was diagnosed, it was no more than 15 minutes between trips to the men's room. Ugh!

    So... I'm calling the doc tomorrow to get some more info. I want to talk to the oncologist also, because there may be other routes, as many have posted. I'll check on radiation and chemo, as opposed to surgery. Who knows?

    Still gonna work out, lift weights, get core strength and walk and run... exercise started to feel good again. Still on the 3 day on, 4 day off diet. It works for me.

    Otherwise, same-same.

    Parent

    Wow. Great update...thanks! (none / 0) (#26)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:27:50 PM EST
    Quite a range...from antibiotics to romance to jobs and oncology.  Whew.   Succinct, too!

    Do check out all the possibilities for treatment.  It's all changed so much since my husband went through the surgery, then radiation and chemo in the 80s.  The diagnosis and surgery came too late for him but we still had almost six years after that 'til the inevitable in 1988.  Now it's my turn. Hard to believe I've been a widow for 23 years, though married for nearly 30.  Where did it all go...?  Into the memory bank, I guess!

    Parent

    If I do have surgery, (none / 0) (#27)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:32:27 PM EST
    it will be laporoscopic. I should be walking around within three days.

    I find that so hard to believe, because I saw colleagues who underwent surgery 10-20 years ago, and they suffered greatly. Some missed work for 60 or more days following the surgery.

    Ahhh, romance. Does my old heart good! Of course, I should question her sanity, lol! But after all, she's a U of Florida grad... what more can I say? ;-)

    Parent

    Wow! 21lbs! That's terrific. (none / 0) (#45)
    by desertswine on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 10:17:37 PM EST
    Great news, (none / 0) (#50)
    by observed on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 05:11:36 AM EST
    Good to hear!

    Parent
    Hey Jeff (none / 0) (#86)
    by loveed on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 05:43:26 PM EST
     I think you know how I feel about love.
     It gives you the feeling, that anything is possible.
     I work in the health care field. Maybe that why I hate doctors and hospitals. My husband has to drag me kicking and screaming.
     But over the 36yrs, the field still amaze me. The progress from day to day keeps growing.
    Keep thinking positive (love will do that).Keep the faith. You never know what's just around the corner.
     Most of all, keep yourself informed. Ask question. Don't be afraid to seek a 2nd,3rd or4th
    opinion. Personally I like younger doctors.

    Parent
    One more Ella for ya, oldpro... (none / 0) (#28)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:34:55 PM EST
    Live Mac The Knife.

    Enjoy, my dear. Wish I was there to dance with you today!

    Parent

    Happy Birthday and Congratulations! (none / 0) (#19)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:58:26 PM EST
    Hope you have a fabulous dinner tonight.

    BTW, I visited Port Townsend and fell in love with it - could definitely live there.

    Parent

    Thanks, Molly. (none / 0) (#23)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:06:39 PM EST
    Almost everyone has that same "I could live there!" reaction, memorialized by Seattle/Tacoma newsman/writer Rob Carson in 1984 in his cover story "City of Dreams" for the now-defunct Seattle Magazine.  Like so many, he left Port Townsend after two years, unable to make those dreams come true.  It's harder than it looks...

    Parent
    happy birthday! (none / 0) (#29)
    by observed on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:46:37 PM EST
    I'm going to turn "39"  with a 0 at the end of the number in a few days.


    Parent
    Heavens to Jack (none / 0) (#38)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 07:43:06 PM EST
    Benny!  39....

    Parent
    Happy Birthday oldpro (none / 0) (#43)
    by MO Blue on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 09:57:35 PM EST
    A lovely day tailored especially for your birthday. Can't beat being having friends around to help you celebrate your special day.

    Parent
    Happy birthday (none / 0) (#47)
    by loveed on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 10:50:04 PM EST
    And many more.

    Parent
    God has a sense of humor (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Politalkix on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:56:07 PM EST
    Rick Perry prayed for rain in Texas and God sent rain to Lousiana. linkI feel that any more prayers from Perry may make God speak to the exorcist Jindal and have him build a giant ark to prepare for the great deluge.
    If Perry becomes President, he may pray to God to rain jobs in America. God, with a great sense of humor may rain jobs in Canada and Mexico but cause a great drought of jobs in the United states. The left will then say that Perry's policies have created an exodus of jobs from the country. But I will know that God listens to Perry! :-)
    Have a great weekend!

    Is this a plague on Perry house? (none / 0) (#48)
    by loveed on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 10:55:00 PM EST
    Happy Birthday Oldpro (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by samsguy18 on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 05:35:25 PM EST
    Hope you're having a wonderful day.

    Some hard-core Labor Day music (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Peter G on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 11:09:59 AM EST
    Joan Baez and Mimi Farina sing "Bread and Roses," from the Lawrence, MA, millworkers.  The kind of beautiful a capella harmony that seems most magical from sisters' voices. Billy Bragg sings "Power in the Union," by Joe Hill, from the IWW's Little Red Songbook.  Florence Reese singing her own lengendary "Which Side on You On?".  "Solidarity Forever," as performed by the Weavers, with Pete Seeger in the lead.  A nice performance of Hedy West's "Cotton Mill Girls" (couldn't find one with Hedy herself).  And one more, Phil Ochs sings his "Ballad of Joe Hill" (to the tune of the folk ballad, John Hardy, which Woody Guthrie also used for his songs, "Jesus Christ" and "Tom Joad.")

    Nice song picks, Peter. (none / 0) (#75)
    by caseyOR on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 01:00:10 PM EST
    Hearing Baez and Farina blending their beautiful voices really took me back.

    The labor movement has an incredible soundtrack. And you've linked to some greats.

    Parent

    Wonderful songs, Peter (none / 0) (#87)
    by Zorba on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 05:47:39 PM EST
    And for those who have lost their jobs, worry about losing their jobs, are underemployed, or face losing (or have lost) their homes, I offer this-  Pete Seeger and many friends singing Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land (all the verses, which don't often get performed).  It is our land, dammit.  We need to take it back.

    Parent
    I sometimes (none / 0) (#8)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:27:40 PM EST
    watch the "Grand Slam" events in Tennis.

    I have seen the French Open, Wimbledon and the Australian Open.

    Now I am watching the US Open.

    The US Open is the only one that seems to deem it necessary to blast rock music during every pause between games.

    If I were one of the players, I would find it very annoying and distracting.

    But for me, I wonder if we, as Americans, are considered to have a zero attention span, and need to be bombarded with external stimuli 24/7 without a moment to reflect on anything.

    I caught the most of the Serena's last (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Anne on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:37:45 PM EST
    set yesterday against Azarenka - and all I can say is that, separate from the good contest it was, if I had to play against someone making that ear-grating trilling noise every time she hit the ball, I'd take loud rock music during the match to help drown it out.

    Parent
    Azarenka is the worst with the screaming. (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by tigercourse on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:02:54 PM EST
    I can't believe someone at the WTA hasn't done something about that, because it is really hurting the sport.

    Parent
    Oh. (none / 0) (#34)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 05:32:32 PM EST
    During the match. Sure.

    It's during the pauses that I find it objectionable.... :)


    Parent

    I have (none / 0) (#36)
    by lentinel on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 05:44:27 PM EST
    become quite used to, and even fond of, the vocalizations of Maria Sharapova.

    I'd rather hear that than the ahhweee sound that Nadal makes.

    Incidentally, I found a broadcast of the Open - I guess it is a satellite feed - in which there are NO COMMENTATORS!

    Just the sounds of the game, the crowd, and the officials.

    Revolutionary.

    For me, it is a welcome relief to not have to hear the yakking of two guys schmoozing each other while I am trying to watch the game.

    To expand from there - it's as if the commercial media is ever-present to spin everything into some kind of recitative.

    And of course they do it with every political event. There's the pre-game show with the pundits pretending to enjoy each other's insights, then the "moderator" asking things that are spinworthy, and finally the postgame show when they refine their spinning and tell us how we are supposed to feel about what we just saw.

    I'm really tired of it.

    Parent

    I'm with you! LOVE to watch (none / 0) (#12)
    by oldpro on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:39:40 PM EST
    tennis, although I have never played.  Something about individuals of skill and talent - the best, doing what they do best!  Same appeal in many Olympics events (not so much teams...more drawn to individuals).

    But the loud music?!?  Jeez.  We oldtimers call that noise...sometimes defined as "sound we could do without!"

    Parent

    30 years for tweeting. (none / 0) (#16)
    by observed on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 01:48:36 PM EST
    I believe Texas got some of the (none / 0) (#25)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 02:17:27 PM EST
    rains... the Houston-Beaumont area...

    Sigh, I guess having grown up in the Southeast, hearing calls to pray for rain by politicos doesn't bother me as much as people making light of the folks who did pray for rain.  After all, even if one is an atheist, then one can't say the prayers caused any damage.

    Just my $0.02.  YMMV.

    Jeff, glad to hear you are (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 03:50:04 PM EST
    making progress.. Games are still good and you're still invited when you can come. My right hand middle and ring finger remain in a hook shaped splint. Perfect for dragging chips and holding drinks!

    And I agree... I don't know why people get their jockey's in a wad because some one prays for something.... like the joke says,"Can't hurt!"

    I think it is that the Left, as does the Right, have a fair number of people who demand that you do as they do. Thus any demonstration of faith automatically qualifies for attacks.

    Secular Humanism as a religion anyone?

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 08:30:39 PM EST
    I don't think anyone has a problem with an individual praying. The thing that riles people up is someone like Rick Perry who promotes the fundamentalist agenda and wants to impose that radical agenda on the entire country.

    Parent
    And your proof that Perry wants to (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 10:32:43 PM EST
    impose an fundamentalist agenda on the country is??

    As I said:

    Secular humanism as a religion anyone?

    We already have a state religion. Is there no room for a second one?

    Parent

    What (5.00 / 0) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 06:39:45 AM EST
    he is saying. He wants to end the direct election of senators and go back to having them appointed. He wants to base the laws of the country on the bible. For all you people screaming about Sharia Law i find it odd that Perry is promoting a very similar agenda and you guys seem to have no problem with it. He wants to ban abortion like they do in Sharia. He wants to override states like NY and ban gay marriage like they do in the middle east. This guy is beyond creepy. He's Michele Bachmann in pants and for some reason she gets ridiculed for her beliefs but he holds the same belief system as she does. They both want radical fundamentalist law for the country.

    Parent
    I don't find (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 09:03:25 AM EST
    your comment factual. Here is a link you probably won't read.

    Link

    As for Sharia law, yes, I have a problem with it. Link

    In too many places where Sharia exists women are treated horribly.

    Call me back when Christians issue laws that tell you how to live 24/7.

    Parent

    You are (none / 0) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:01:21 AM EST
    linking to blogs? LOL.

    Here's an actual article about how Perry wants to change the constitution:
    link

    The irony is that if we did what Perry said Bush would have had to have instituted a huge tax on the populace for the War in Iraq and would have had to repeal the Bush tax plan. LOL.

    Rick Perry wants the same treatment for women. I simply don't understand why conservatives think Sharia is so bad when they are advocating the same thing for women? Capital punishment for having a miscarriage? Conservatives have been declaring war on women with their legislation all over the country. It's something that would make the Sharia followers proud.


    Parent

    Uh, yes (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 11:00:23 AM EST
    especially when the blogs have links supporting their comments..

    But on the subject of your problem with blogs... do you also think Palin was demonized by lies from the Left on blogs???

    Do you read any blogs outside of TalkLeft? And what are they??

    Parent

    Are you saying with a straight face (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 11:04:42 AM EST
    that Perry wants women to be executed for infidelity? That they not be allowed to testify in a trial of their rapist(s)?? That they not be allowed to be alone with non-family members? That they not be allowed to go to school? That is okay for male family members to kill them if the males think they have brought dishonor on the family?

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 11:46:00 AM EST
    you didn't realize that the GOP actually introduced a bill decriminalizing rape did you? Legally mandating ultra sounds like Rick Perry did? The GOP is flipping crazy.

    No, they just want to take away any rights women have but not kill them. Put them in a cage so to speak so I guess they'll want to commit suicide or something. It's just a kindler gentler "Sharia" I guess you could say.

    Parent

    Why don't you provide some links (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 12:06:03 PM EST
    I mean your comments are becoming unbelievable.

    Parent
    Why don't you provide some links (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 12:06:03 PM EST
    I mean your comments are becoming unbelievable.

    Parent
    Here (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 12:56:14 PM EST
    you go:

    HR 3

    Would decriminalize rape. The bill redefined rape to "forcible rape" so I guess you can change the meaning of rape to whatever you want it to mean. I guess is the woman is raped but is too scared to fight back 'cause the guy has a knife at her head, she wouldn't be able to prosecute.

    You really don't pay attention to what the GOP has been doing do you?

    Here you go on the Rick Perry ultra sound law
    link


    Parent

    "Risible" (none / 0) (#54)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 08:47:44 AM EST
    We already have a state religion. Is there no room for a second one?

    That's a ridiculous claim.  Hey, Jim - if our state religion is "Secular Humanism", where are all of the churches/temples?  A state religion without meeting places or house of worship?  Where are all of the tax subsidies that are given to other religions?  Why are the words "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance?  Why is our government allowing (even subsidizing) people who ascribe to other religions?

    Your claim is just silly.

    Parent

    The (none / 0) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 09:04:55 AM EST
    whole "secular humanism" thing is a bugaboo put forth by conservatives to advance radical fundamentalism. Their theory is that the government already has a religion and it's "secular humanism" so therefore replacing it with a radical form of Christianity wouldn't be doing anything but replacing one form of religion with another.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#61)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 09:54:29 AM EST
    It's one of O'Reilly's favorites, too, along with how Christians are being persecuted here in the US.

    Funny stuff.

    Parent

    Silly? (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 09:13:24 AM EST
    Obviously the comment is meant to make the reader "think."

    Try it sometimes instead of just making personal attacks.

    But let's play.... Meeting places?

    Sport stadiums?

    I don't know of any tax subsidies given to "religion" but some are exempted from some taxes as along as they are not involved in politics.

    How many sport stadiums have been built using tax dollars? How many NGO's receive government money?

    BTW - We are sending tax payer money overseas to rebuild Mosques. Why is that not a separation issue?


    Parent

    Special tax breaks ... (none / 0) (#60)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 09:53:16 AM EST
    ... are subsidies, Jim, and religious groups receive plenty of them.  

    By "meeting places", I was referring to meeting places for (according to you) our state religion - secular humanism.  Stadiums are not "places of worship" for secular humanists.  Tax breaks for stadiums are a form of subsidy for private businesses - one I disagree with, but they're a whole, separate issue.

    You would think that if secular humanism was our "state religion", we'd at least have some places of worship paid for by the government somewhere out there.  Of course, we don't, because the idea is "risible".  (Hey - you would think they would change the Pledge to "One nation under no God", wouldn't they?)

    BTW - As far as the mosques go, it's not an issue I've ever looked into.  If you're suddenly concerned about separation issues, maybe you should contact Americans United For Separation of Church and State.  Turns out they agree with you, because they're intellectually consistent.

    Parent

    So letting people keep (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:55:53 AM EST
    their money is a form of subsidy?

    That's consistent with a far Left belief.

    Tell me. Do you think religious organizations should be taxed? Private charities?

    Media Matters?

    My examples were just pointing out the similarities. We can call the commissioners of baseball, football and basketball Tri-Popes and the owners Cardinals. The broadcasters, players and managers can be priests.

    And thanks for the AUF info. They are 100% correct.

    Parent

    The problem (none / 0) (#68)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 11:50:43 AM EST
    that has come about has been churches that have been involved in political activity and it's blurred a lot of these issues.

    If you are using your church for a political campaign like one did here in my area should it be considered tax exempt?

    Parent

    No, it should not (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 12:08:13 PM EST
    Now, how about Media Matters?

    AARP????

    Parent

    I don't (none / 0) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 12:59:12 PM EST
    know. Is the DNC or the RNC using their facilities? I mean if you think that organizations that advocate for certain policies should be tax exempt then you would have to take it away from all the churches that even mention issues like abortion in the sermons in those churches.

    Parent
    You actually don't know (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 01:44:26 PM EST
    that Media Matters is totally far Left?

    Come on.  Be serious.

    Parent

    I didn't say (none / 0) (#79)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 01:50:34 PM EST
    they were far left or far right did I? I just said that they were advocating for certain policies right? And if anyone advocating for policies should lose their tax free status then churches where the ministers make policy pronouncements shouldn't have tax free status either now should they?

    Parent
    I have already specified (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 02:16:57 PM EST
    churches that become in politics should be taxed.

    Now.

    Media Matters.  Tax them?  Yes?  No?

    Parent

    Sure (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 02:27:37 PM EST
    tax them if they meet the qualifications just like tax the churches where their ministers are talking about abortion and gay marriage or whatever. JUST HAVE THE SAME STANDARD FOR EVERYBODY.

    Parent
    Works for me (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 03:06:38 PM EST
    Actually, I do ... (none / 0) (#76)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 01:32:04 PM EST
    ... think all charities should be taxed, but particularly religious organizations, given the First Amendment's requirement of separation of church and state.  You remember that one, right Jim?  That's the one that you support when it's applied to the government using tax money to build mosques overseas, but the one you don't support when it comes to giving special tax breaks when it comes to churches you like.

    Funny how that works ...

    Hey - you dodged the real questions, though.  If secular humanism is our state religion, where all all the house of worship?  Why does the Pledge include the words "one nation under God", rather than "one nation without God"?  Why the special tax breaks for all the non-state religious organizations?

    Maybe because your theory is just nonsense?

    Heh.

    BTW - It's not a matter of "letting people keep their money" - it's a matter of giving them special treatment that isn't afforded to other private businesses and groups.  Churches in many jurisdictions pay no property taxes, yet receive all the benefits of property tax payers (fire, police, etc.).  They open gyms/fitness centers, child care facilities, coffee shops, ice cream parlors, etc., yet they pay no taxes, unlike their private business counterparts.  But you're good with that, as long as it's not a (gasp) mosque.

    Parent

    BTW - It's far from just (none / 0) (#78)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 01:44:53 PM EST
    ... real estate tax exemptions.  Churches have also been permitted tax-free construction loans for purely religious projects, tax exemptions for employees' personal-income and payroll taxes, and a bunch of other special tax treatments not afforded to other groups.

    Strange, huh? ... particularly given your claim that our state religion is "secular humanism".

    Parent

    Oh please (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 02:13:13 PM EST
    quit flogging a dead horse. I readily admitted that the Secular Humanism comment was meant to try and get people thinking and tossed out some examples of secular organizations that are organized much like some religious organizations.

    The Internet might be Evangelical.

    And yes, building or rebuilding Mosques overseas using money borrowed from China strikes me as a violation of many things. Common sense is at the top of the list.

    And you can't resist the insult, can you? Can't have a discussion without insulting? Well, I have long known that you are a member of that peculiar group who cry for free speech... for themselves only...

    ;-)

    And I have no problem with churches being required to pay taxes on non-religious activities. And I would never let AARP own United Healthcare.

    And yes, calling failing to collect taxes a "subsidy" does display a certain philosophy of the far Left that the government owns everything and allows certain people to keep part of what they have.

    So your claim that I am good with favors to Christian churches but not Muslim Mosques is hollow as a drum. It is just that I am not concerned with our ability to keep the Christian faith separated from government.

    We have had years of practice at doing that.

    But viewing the results of Muslim immigration into Europe and the resulting spread of Sharia law I am not convinced that we can do the same with Islam.

    As Reagan said. Trust but verify.

    Parent

    Ohhhhhhh, so the secular humanism ... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 03:11:35 PM EST
    ... comment was just to "get people thinking".

    Heh.

    Of course you're not concerned with keeping the influence of Christian churches separate from government while promoting a fear-mongering fantasy of Shariah law.  It has nothing to do with "years of practice", however.  It has to do with the fact that you wingers are aligned with Christian fundamentalists - you like the same political candidates and hang in the same circles.  Hey - just out of curiousity - can you name a single Shariah law in the US?  I can name a whole lot of "Christian" laws enacted in the US (in violation of the First Amendment), but not a single Shariah law.

    Weird, huh?

    BTW - I'm not sure what you're interpreting as an "insult", but since when do you have a problem with insults?  Your own site says insults are prohibited, yet you do it all the time.  Maybe if I use an "LOL" or ;-) to act like I'm just kidding?  Nahhhh, ... that just seems so, ... I don't know ...

    ... cowardly?

    Parent

    "you wingers..." heh (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 06:08:13 PM EST
    Golly gee Sgt Shadow, we'un Social Liberals are for minority rights including gay marriage... Can I hang out with you?

    Desperation becomes you.

    I can name you a court case over an attempt to insure Sharia law does not become part of the US law.

    Funny thing, Muslims are resisting these attempts.

    A federal judge in Oklahoma has issued an order putting on hold the certification of a ballot measure that forbids state courts from considering or using international laws, as well as Sharia, or Islamic law. That permanent injunction will allow the judge more time to consider the constitutional issues raised by State Question 755, which was approved by voters earlier this month.

    Judge Vicki Miles-LaGrange had earlier issued a temporary restraining order in favor of the Council of American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), which had sued to nullify the law completely.

    Link

    If CAIR doesn't want Sharia law in the US, why did it file suit??

    BTW - Did you find some of us middle class and working poor folks today, that would be Labor Day,   and explain that you oppose trying everything to reduce gasoline prices because it's good for us to have no jobs and high food prices?

    No?? Well, I wouldn't expect a Limousine Liberal to actually know any working folks.

    Parent

    wow (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by NYShooter on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 06:29:11 PM EST
    "Well, I wouldn't expect a Limousine Liberal to actually know any working folks."

    Not an insult, of course, just to get us thinking."

    Wait for it..........LoL.


    Parent

    Or maybe the old (none / 0) (#93)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 06:40:02 PM EST
    ;-)

    ... just to mix things up a bit.

    Parent

    You took that as an insult? (none / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 07:33:03 PM EST
    ;-)

    Parent
    Hahahahahahah (none / 0) (#92)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 06:38:40 PM EST
    I can name you a court case over an attempt to insure Sharia law does not become part of the US law.

    Not even close, Jim.  Pahtetic, really.

    If CAIR doesn't want Sharia law in the US, why did it file suit??

    Uhhhmmmm ... because the law is blatantly discriminatory?  Because it feeds the very anti-Muslim bigotry you exemplify so well.  Because it's unconstitutional.  Because (as the judge noted): ...

    it does not have a secular purpose, that its primary purpose inhibits religion, and that it fosters an excessive government entanglement with religion.
    .  Because Shariah law
    "lacks a legal character" and "is not `law' but is religious traditions that differ among Muslims." As a result, she said, the amendment "conveys a message of disapproval of plaintiff's faith and, consequently, has the effect of inhibiting plaintiff's religion.

    Try reading the injunction ruling.

    Because, as Republican Chris Christie said of the wingers stirring anti-Shariah bull$hit:

    This Sharia law business is crap. It's just crazy. And I'm tired of dealing with the crazies.

    Now, back to the question.  Shall we compare laws declared unconstitutional laws (based on religion) in the US?  You list the Christianity-based laws, I'll do the Shariah laws.

    ...

    I'm done.

    Your turn.

    Parent

    Are you telling me that because you and (none / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 07:44:16 PM EST
    Christie agree I am supposed to?

    Really? I had no idea I was supposed to agree with him. I mean, the things I learn.

    And quit trying to change the subject. If you want to rant about unconstitutional Christian laws, rant away. Heck, I might even join you in some.

    That has nothing to do with this fact based question.

    If CAIR opposes Sharia law being used in the US, why did it file suit?

    None of your responses answers the question.

    BTW - Doesn't the separation clause say church and state must be separate? So what's wrong with a law that says church law can't be used by a government  court?

    Parent

    Wrong on all counts - as usual (none / 0) (#96)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 08:40:49 PM EST
    Are you telling me that because you and Christie agree I am supposed to?  Really? I had no idea I was supposed to agree with him. I mean, the things I learn.

    Uh, ... no Jim, but keep throwing that straw.

    And quit trying to change the subject. If you want to rant about unconstitutional Christian laws, rant away. Heck, I might even join you in some.

    Really?  Not changing the subject at all - just interested in your double standard.  You frequently rant on your blog about Shariah Law, and you've never ranted about "Christian law".  I'll keep an eye out for that one, ...

    ... but I won't be holding my breath.


    If CAIR opposes Sharia law being used in the US, why did it file suit?

    None of your responses answers the question.

    They all answer your question.  You just don't like the answer.  The reasons are all spelled out in the injunction order.  It's a very simple order.  Just try reading it.

    Doesn't the separation clause say church and state must be separate?

    Very good, Jim, but as you know (or should know) the courts have held that the wall of separation between Church and State is not absolute, and the Court has not always interpreted the constitutional principle as meaning absolute separation of government from all things religious.  Hence the very reason we're permitted to have the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance - not that you're upset by that one, right?

    So what's wrong with a law that says church law can't be used by a government court?

    From my perspective, nothing at all.  Of course, that's not what Oklahoma was doing with State Question 755.  It specifically targeted Muslims and Shariah law, not a general prohibition against "Church law" or "religious laws".  That was the reason the injunction was issued.

    OTOH, religious "laws" or principles are frequently applied in civil courts, as long as there's some basis for applying them and they don't violate the Constitution.  People sign medical directives or wills with provisions based on their own religious "laws", and a civil court will generally enforce these wishes, provided they otherwise comport with the laws of that jurisdiction.  Family courts also often apply religious laws, such as when an Orthodox Jewish couple wished to obtain a "Get", or when a couple signs a Jewish Prenuptual Agreement requiring the parties to submit to arbitration before a rabinical court.

    If the decisions to enter these agreements are made knowingly and voluntarily, and they otherwise comply with the laws of that jurisdiction, a strong case could be made that the failure to apply those laws is a violation of the First Amendment.

    If you want any more lessons, pick up a book on Constitutional Law.

    Parent

    Gee, you brought the subject up (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 09:02:27 PM EST
    of unconstitutional Christian laws... So I kinda think you should be giving us some examples.

    I await them with much excitement.

    OTOH - You have not answered the base question.

    If CAIR is opposed to Sharia law in the US, why did they sue?

    Of course CAIR was not all that concerned over US law when they acted in such a manner that DOJ named them an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation affair re providing funds to HAMAS, a terrorist organization according to the US government.

    Parent

    Already answered, Jim (none / 0) (#98)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 10:40:08 PM EST
    The fact that you can't comprehend a very simple answer (and a very simple judicial order) is not my problem.

    Maybe get your assistant to read it for you.

    LOL!

    BTW - I took the Shariah laws example because it's the easy one ... since it's never happened.  

    Heh.

    As far as the Christian laws, I've spent enough time giving you lessons in basic Con Law.  If you want more, they're easy to find ... Google is your friend.

    Parent

    Avoidance is your name (none / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 06, 2011 at 02:26:50 PM EST
    and reframing is your game.

    No, you have not answered why CAIR, if they do not want Sharia law in the US, has sued to prevent a law taking effect that would do exactly that.

    Prevent Sharia law from taking effect.

    People and organizations do not willing do things that are counter to what they want. CAIR did what they did because they want Sharia law to come into effect. See Europe. See England.

    Parent

    No "avoidance" or "reframing" (none / 0) (#102)
    by Yman on Tue Sep 06, 2011 at 02:46:44 PM EST
    Read my words and/or the the order.

    If you can't (or won't) understand simple English, it's not my problem.

    Parent

    First you bring up (none / 0) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 06, 2011 at 04:23:14 PM EST
    unconstitutional Christian laws and then won't provide some examples.

    And then when I point out that CAIR's lawsuit obviously was filed because they want Sharia law in the US and you respond with a bunch of what is frankly, gibberish spoken to disguise that you and the persons involved either do not, or do not want to, recognize the facts.

    Avoid all you wish. The facts speak.

    Parent

    They do indeed, Jim (none / 0) (#104)
    by Yman on Tue Sep 06, 2011 at 04:36:20 PM EST
    It's not my problem you can't understand them.

    BTW Jim - As I said, it's easy to find laws held to violate the First Amendment's Establishment clause.  But if you're completely helpless without an assistant, this should get you started.

    Parent

    Uh, why don't you (none / 0) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 06, 2011 at 09:37:21 PM EST
    show me some actual laws instead of playing games?

    I mean laws that have been challenged and proven unconstitutional... I am sure there are some. After all, I wrote that our government had years of experience keeping church and state separate...

    But it seems reluctant to step up and say that Sharia Law shall not be used in our legal system.. In fact, a misguided judge has placed an injunction against one.. sad and shameful.

    But it made CAIR happy.

    Parent

    Sorry, Jim (none / 0) (#106)
    by Yman on Wed Sep 07, 2011 at 08:57:25 AM EST
    Don't be so lazy ... you admit they're out there, yet expect me to hand them to you.  He//, just click on the link I gave you.

    Yes, our government has "years of experience" separating church, but as you'll find the wall is not absolute.  The courts apply a standard called the "Lemon test" to determine if a law violates the First Amendment.  The judge in the Oklahoma case was not "misguided", as State Question 755 clearly violated the law as spelled out in Lemon by targeting a specific religion.  As a "Shariah is coming!"-fear-mongering winger, you just aren't happy about it.

    That's a shame.

    That's a shame.

    Parent

    Logic is not your strong suit (none / 0) (#107)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Sep 08, 2011 at 09:21:04 AM EST
    If CAIR didn't want Sharia law in the US, why did they file suit to stop a law that blocked Sharia law?

    Parent
    Heheheheheheh .... (none / 0) (#108)
    by Yman on Thu Sep 08, 2011 at 10:45:41 AM EST
    Coming from you, ...

    ... that's seriously funny.

    BTW - If you can't comprehend my plain-English comments or a simple, judicial order, logic may not be your biggest issue.

    Parent

    Thanks, Jim, (none / 0) (#32)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 04:26:53 PM EST
    Glad to hear you're pulling in some chips! I have been avoiding playing since the med issues.  In Colombia, though, they thought I was a poker player for the WPT or something when I arrived... I was just there, didn't play a hand or even go to a casino!

    Parent
    Lighten up Jim (none / 0) (#39)
    by Politalkix on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 08:15:31 PM EST
    Someone who prays can also have a sense of humor.
    Some of the best "religious jokes" I have heard were often narrated by people who prayed.
    The crack was also not on "praying" but the "politics of praying".

    Parent
    Arizona (none / 0) (#49)
    by Politalkix on Sun Sep 04, 2011 at 11:33:53 PM EST
    Trouble For The TEAs (none / 0) (#51)
    by MSimon on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 05:44:54 AM EST
    Let's Alinsky the TEA Party:

    This will actually hit them where it will hurt. Make them live up to their ideals. If they can.

    I never noticed a Prohibition Amendment. Except for Alcohol.

    Think of all the Conservative Constitutionalists heads exploding over that one.

    ==

    Hi Jeralyn,

    Long time. Nice to be visiting again.

    1/2 (none / 0) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 07:48:26 AM EST
    of the State of Texas is danger of burning up
    link

    If I were a fundamentalist like Perry I would say that God was punishing Texas for their evil ways. I wonder how he reconciles his state burning up and his radical fundamentalist beliefs?

    a fundamentalist like Perry...... (none / 0) (#59)
    by Rojas on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 09:15:04 AM EST
    and when the DLC came with their new testament it became a religion. They had a new messiah. Slash regulation so the corporations could go forth and multiply. Rick Perry won't let you down in that regard.

    Parent
    Matt Stoller (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 09:03:13 AM EST
    in Salon
    thinks Obama should get a primary challenge

    IIRC, wasn't he one of Obama's biggest boosters back in '08?


    Anatomy of a Class Economy (none / 0) (#72)
    by Politalkix on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 12:27:01 PM EST
    link

    It provides a view of what has changed.

    Jobs plan will call for infrastructure spending (none / 0) (#83)
    by Politalkix on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 03:01:55 PM EST
    link

    From the article
    "Karen Porter, 52, of Detroit, who also attended the rally, said she has been unemployed for three years but doesn't blame Obama. "I support him more than 100 percent," she said."

    I think the President has good support. I am sure Towanda and some others in TL will be disappointed that Trumka attended the rally!


    That's great for Karen ... (5.00 / 0) (#88)
    by Yman on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 06:03:22 PM EST
    ... but I don't think she qualifies as "good support".

    Personally, I'm glas Trumka attended - liked his quote:

    "American workers, whether they're union or not union, are looking for leadership," he said. "They don't want excuses. They don't want bipartisan crap."


    Parent
    ". . . bipartisan crap." (5.00 / 0) (#90)
    by caseyOR on Mon Sep 05, 2011 at 06:22:55 PM EST
    Trumka took the words right out of my mouth.

    Parent
    Karen is part of the 34% who approve (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 06, 2011 at 08:43:51 AM EST
    of how Obama has handled the economy. Unfortunately per your linked article, 65% of Americans do not agree with Karen and disapprove of the way Obama is handling the economy.

    A poll conducted Aug. 24-25 for CNN found 65 percent of Americans disapprove of the way Obama is handling the economy, the highest level since he took office. Thirty-four percent said they approved. The margin of error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.


    Parent
    Apparently, by some 'thinking' (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Edger on Tue Sep 06, 2011 at 09:10:41 AM EST
    that only proves that 65% of Americans are Obama haters, and it'll be their fault if a republican of whose handling of the economy only 34% will approve wins the presidency next year.

    Parent