Tuesday Open Thread

Long day in Court today, which means an open thread for you. All topics welcome.

< Hostage John Cantlie Messages: Episode 2 Released
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    Maldives -- the other side of paradise (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:20:50 AM EST
    In case you think you are (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 09:27:16 AM EST
    havong a bad day.  Try tuning into to the House "hearing" on the Secret Service and imagine being that poor woman.

    Not making excuses.  It was a major clusterf&ck.  actually more than one.  Still, how much fun can it be to be the whipping person of a bunch of ridiculous canting windbags who only care to the extent of the airtime it gives them.

    I will try (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:10:45 AM EST
    to remember this as the last couple of weeks have been pretty rough around my house

    Hope (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:19:51 AM EST
    the next couple are better

    Thanks (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:38:26 AM EST
    Me too

    Hope you're coming out the other side (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:42:14 AM EST
    and beginning to get back to normal.

    Whether it's a work thing or a family thing, I am not a big fan of crisis - never been much of an adrenaline junkie! - or even of waiting for the other shoe to drop.  

    I laugh about how boring my life is, but in reality, it's not so much boring I go for, but calm.  Some people think they are the same, but they're definitely not.  


    Not yet (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:38:54 AM EST
    But dealing with 21 year old boys is not for the faint of heart.

    Will keep you and your family in (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:54:07 AM EST
    my thoughts...

    Remember how we thought it was so hard when our kids were little?  How we thought it was just so stressful to be the mother of a 2-year old or a 5-year old?  I mean, it was hard, and it was stressful, for that time, but God, little did we know that one day, those baby/toddler years would seem so easy.  

    Years later, when my girls were teenagers, I realized that as trying as those younger phases of life were, at least we knew where they were and what they were doing...there's more terror in being a parent of a young adult than I ever dreamed.


    Thanks (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:11:34 PM EST
    Yeah, the toddler years were quite a challenge but in a different way. :)

    ... and was both invincible and omnipotent. What could possibly go wrong? Well, lots of things, actually. I simply had yet to attain the life's experience that was necessary to realize it.

    Looking back at my life between ages 18 to 25 with some sense of perspective, I was remarkably headstrong but emotionally immature. I had so much (over-)confidence in my own abilities and charm that I had a very hard time accepting "No!" as an answer, which eventually led to a major meltdown on my part when personal rejection actually had the last laugh. (That's how I ended up in Hawaii. At age 25, I literally ran away from home.)

    I often wonder how my own mother ever put up with me during my insufferable years, but she did. So please hang in there, and have faith in your own incomparable abilities as a parent. Your boy's presently navigating uncharted waters as a young man, and I can definitely assure you that for some of us, it takes a while to gain our sea legs. Just because the law says that at 21 years of age, you're legally an adult, doesn't necessarily mean that you really ARE an adult.

    But just like in his early adolescence, I'm sure he'll eventually find himself and this phase too shall pass. And before you know it, he'll no doubt become someone of which you can be proud.

    I'm thinking good thoughts for you today. Aloha.


    Thanks Donald (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:18:59 PM EST
    Your post really lifted my spirits.

    I hope you are feeling okay these days.


    Thanks as well. I'm hanging in there. (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:01:25 PM EST
    Some days are good, others not so much. And speaking of mothers, mine arrived yesterday afternoon from L.A. for a 10-day visit. Seems as though she didn't like the way I sounded over the phone, so she decided to come out and buck up my spirits.

    Only now, I think that I'm bucking up hers instead, because yesterday was the very first time she saw me without hair (probably since I was an infant!) and 35 lbs. lighter, so the seriousness of the situation really hit home with her.

    I have every confidence that I'll get through this and be back to my old self. But I have to admit, it's been a hell of a lot tougher than I initially thought it would be. Chemo and radiation are not for sissies.



    Try to keep (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by Zorba on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:09:41 PM EST
    your spirits up as much as you can, Donald.  I have never experienced radiation and chemo, but I have people very close to me who have.  It is a difficult road that you are traveling, my brother.

    Hang in there (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:38:42 PM EST
    Just wrapped up 6 months of Chemo following proton beam treament and had my first scans post treatment (MRI & PET/CT).

    The tumor is stable to slightly reduced.

    Because it is a Germ Cell Sarcoma it may never shrink but as long as it doesn't grow anymore and I get no new disease I'm happy.

    Hoping similar results for you.


    You hang in there, too (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Zorba on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:06:39 PM EST

    Best wishes (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:08:09 PM EST
    and positive vibes to you both.

    Glad to (none / 0) (#108)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:10:59 PM EST
    hear you wrapped up your treatment.

    I learned during my bout with cancer that there is such a thing as living with cancer. I always thought it was a death sentence prior.


    Great news (none / 0) (#136)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:59:21 PM EST
    Happy to read that the tumor is stable. Here's hoping you continue on this course.

    I definiately agree (none / 0) (#135)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:55:36 PM EST
    Chemo and radiation are not for sissies.

    Being confident is part of the battle but having the ability to to admit that on this particular day I don't feel like being strong and this really sucks is important too. It gets very tiring projecting strength and confidence each and every day. Some time you need to be able to take a break from that too and have an understanding ear around when you vent.

    Hope you feel better soon.


    Thinking positive thoughts for you and yours. (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:42:16 PM EST
    I agree w/Donald.

    Here is hoping that things change for (none / 0) (#131)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:45:48 PM EST
    the better for you.

    Hang in there.


    Thanks (none / 0) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:11:17 PM EST
    MO Blue!

    Interesting article on Sunni-Shia Schism (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:33:33 AM EST
    Council on Foreign Relations.

    Interesting notes:

    Didn't know Sunni was such a majority
    Didn't' really know why they split
    Didn't know it goes all the way back to the beginning of the faith

    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:36:15 AM EST
    But for centuries Sunni and Shia have lived together, intermarried etc...  it takes a power-hungry leader to exploit the story in order to bring shia and sunni to war.

    Interesting that Saladin (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:54:27 AM EST
    who was in some ways the jihadist's jihadist and scourge of the Crusaders during the middle ages, had the still-reverenced-by-Orthodox-Jews Moses Maimonides as his personal physician..

    The meme that aside from historical influences there's something inherently vicious and fanatical about Islam is probably no more true about Islam than it is about Hinduism.


    I recently read (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by CST on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:14:35 PM EST
    The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.  One of the things that struck me about that book, was how convinced the author seemed to be that there could never be a unified, peaceful Germany.  That there was something inherent in German culture that made them predisposed to fascism and violence.  The author also found any suggestion of a politically or economically unified western European block laughable.

    Needless to say, that part of the book did not age well.  Hopefully the same will be true of those  statements about Islam.


    Jung and Nietzche (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:26:16 PM EST
    talked about a pagan, blond-beast under that thin veneer of Christianity and Enlightenment..

    I think Jung was referring more to Europeans in general though..

    It's obvious that there are unhinged people - sometimes in high places - with a perverse love of death and destruction. Hitler and his sycophants and people like General Curtis Lemay and the rest of the Bircher wing of the Joint Chiefs who literally wanted to start WWIII over Cuba "going communist".



    Jung wrote about a Wotan complex (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 02:27:39 PM EST
    Coming into play after Germany was defeated in WWI.

    The author frequently refers to the (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:18:49 PM EST
    philosophers read by the various Nazi party hierarchy. I am still  pondering the affinity for Richard Wagner, who was exiled during the 1848 revolution.

    It's somewhat complicated (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:14:57 PM EST
    but Wagner was a great influence on Hitler, and the 1848 period was forgotten when Wagner was rescued financially by mad King Ludwig of Bavaria and with the creation of Bayreuth as Wagners' temple to survive past his death.

    Wagner ended up as a virulent anti-Semite(which didn't keep him from choosing Jewish conductors to play his music), a Geman nationalist who was quite in line with the thinking of Goebbles and the rest of the Nazi hierarchy, although they didn't enjoy his art with the enthusiasm of their leader, to put it mildly.

    Throw into that mix Nietzche, who knew the Wagners' as a young disciple and wrote about him at the beginning of his career, broke with Wagner over his opera Parsifal, add to at the deliberate distortions of Nietszches' philosophy and thought by his sister, who lived long enough to meet and approve of Hitler, and you have one heck of a Germanic  intellectual mess.


    To be fair to author William Shirer, ... (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:50:45 PM EST
    ... he was based in Berlin as a U.S. foreign correspondent from 1934 to 1941, first for Universal News Service (owned by William Randolph Hearst) and then for Edward R. Murrow and CBS News, so he literally lived and breathed the Third Reich on a daily basis for seven years. Perhaps in that regard, he became too close to his subject matter to provide a wholly objective analysis.

    Further, we know from his early writings and manuscripts that Shirer had been predisposed to actually regard Adolf Hitler in a rather favorable light, though to his credit those initial impressions were very quickly dispelled as the harsh reality of Der Fuhrer's dictatorship soon enveloped Germany in a particularly virulent nationalism and racist ideology.

    Following the U.S. entry into the Second World War, Shirer became an enthusiastic advocate for the Morgenthau Plan, which had it ever been implemented would have stripped Germany of its industrial capacity in its entirety and reduced the country to the status of a Third World agrarian state.

    As the Third Reich quickly disintegrated in the winter and spring of 1945, Shirer became one of the founders and directors for The Society for the Prevention of World War III, which advocated for the imposition of a very harsh peace upon Germany, including the abolition of the State of Prussia and the country's wholesale breakup and reconstitution as an independent nation, both of which were accomplished during the subsequent Allied occupation.

    So in that regard, Shirer's views were not unlike the contemporary expressions of many of his fellow Americans, who similarly held a very dim view regarding the likelihood of any future European union, given the two successive and disastrous world wars which that continent had engendered in only a quarter-century.

    If you're interested in further exploring this subject, I highly recommend that you also read William Shirer's "Berlin Diary," which is a fascinating and contemporaneous first-hand account of his years as a correspondent and journalist in Nazi Germany, prior to the U.S. entry into the Second World War. Of note, Shirer was one of the pioneering correspondents who originally co-produced (with Murrow) the "CBS World News Roundup," which remains the oldest radio broadcast show still on the air anywhere in the world today.



    Great Book About Saladin (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:59:00 AM EST
    Evan Connell writes beautifully (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by jondee on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:04:43 PM EST
    about the Crusades and those two in particular in a couple of his books.

    btw, Scott and SUO, (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by fishcamp on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:02:59 PM EST
    when fish are in schools they sometimes take debate.


    There Are Some Who Dispute Reston's Scholarship (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:18:35 PM EST
    From Amazon reviews (1)
    Reston's book is absurdly slanted, and he never misses an opportunity to criticize the Crusaders or praise the Muslim forces. His bias is not even consistent, as an act by the Crusaders is bad, but the same act by the Muslims good. Every bad act by the Crusaders is wicked. Every bad act by the Muslim forces is justified.

    A historian is entitled to an opinion, and while there may have been good and bad on both sides, I do not believe that means an author has to write with a kind of "everybody was equally good and bad" equivalency. But, a historian should at least recognize the complexities involved with a topic like the Crusades, recognize that there was good and bad on both sides, and at least attempt a fair characterization of those complexities rather than a cartoonish caricature.

    Regarding historical accuracy, I don't claim to be an expert on this period ....

    Oh and Richard the Lionheart is most definitely gay.

    Great read!!


    Well.... (none / 0) (#70)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:55:53 PM EST
    Mohammed was a warrior and spread his faith (which he created) through force.

    One of the important things the above link points out and other people mention is that Islam is not just a religion but also a form of political governance.

    Islam is not just a religion but "a way of Life".


    I agree (none / 0) (#61)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:04:24 PM EST
    For whatever reason it seems that the governments of some Islamic countries are using Islam to restrict rights, inflame violence etc.. etc...

    There are lot so reasons why, interference by the west, reactions to colonialism etc.. etc...

    Iran and Saudi Arabia according to this article seem to be the drivers of the most recent sectarian hostilities.   It doesn't really have much to do with the religion but their interpretations of it and their more selfish needs to hold on to power.


    And.... (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by ZtoA on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:26:17 PM EST
    Advances by Islamic State (IS) forces have threatened one of the last safe regions of Mesopotamia still open to archaeologists by driving up the risks of working in Iraqi Kurdistan, it is feared. This month, a team of Italian archaeologists left their excavation site in Irbil, heading overland to Turkey.


    "The general political situation in the Near East is so tricky and so difficult it will shape quite profoundly the future development of archaeology," Bonacossi said. "The classical centres of the Near East are now out of the game. You can't work in Lebanon, Syria--the Iraqi part of Mesopotamia is getting more difficult. You can't work in Yemen. The options are not so many



    Very interesting (none / 0) (#67)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:44:15 PM EST
    thanks for linking to that

    Israel? (none / 0) (#76)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:20:51 PM EST
    And all the Hasidic and Ultra Orthodox communities in the US  (and elsewhere) that self govern.

    And I am sure that there are christian and other religious groups who have sects who self govern.


    Presbyterians. (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:35:01 PM EST
    Weak comparison (none / 0) (#89)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:49:25 PM EST
    Please name me a country in the world ruled by Christian law and only Christian law.

    Jesus said the following..."Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."   Essentially establishing the separation of Church and State.

    Yes, Israel is a state for Jews but it is a nation of 8 million people (of wich 75% are Jewish) and has laws protecting freedom of religion.

    Much of the Islamic world has no such distinction nor laws.  The law of Islam is the law of the land.

    Do you really not see a difference?  

    The link I provided is written by a Muslim and states exactly what I'm saying.  That Islam is different exactly because it is "A way of life".

    I really don't understand your need to rationalize away the realities of Islam.  


    Gross Generalization, IMO (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:01:26 PM EST
    I really don't understand your need to rationalize away the realities of Islam.

    Islam is a religion, religions do not kill, people do.

    To generalize that Islam is a problem is to stigmatize a billion people as being a problem.

    They tried that with the jews.


    You seem completely (none / 0) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:04:47 PM EST
    unaware of the irony of adopting the motto of the NRA.

    Funny (none / 0) (#105)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:09:30 PM EST
    ...."From my cold dead hands"

    NRA? (none / 0) (#107)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:10:30 PM EST
    TL has the same position on guns, and I believe it is an apt metaphor.

    People can take the exact same religious texts and spread enlightenment or spread hate. It is not the texts or religions it is the leaders who interpret the text who do the good or damage.


    I agree with you there (none / 0) (#113)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:13:11 PM EST
    And your point is well made that before the recent decades Muslims and Christian lived together peacefully much longer then they haven't.

    So what's changed?

    That is what I can't put my finger on.

    Maybe it's that all previous ideologies, and western meddling failed them so a simple pure form, or more conservative form of Islam seemed to be a good idea?

    What do you think?


    The Problems Are With Specific Leaders (none / 0) (#115)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:15:48 PM EST
    And specific countries. They do not represent Islam despite how loudly they scream that the do.

    How can you possibly say (none / 0) (#117)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:21:38 PM EST
    that a hydra headed beast like ISIL or the group du jour is the result of a specific leader.  

    Which leader would that be?


    Who is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (none / 0) (#124)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:33:50 PM EST
    So (none / 0) (#129)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:42:21 PM EST
    so your point is we kill this guy and our problems are over?



    It isn't a tasteful subject (none / 0) (#160)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:42:05 PM EST
    But when a leader dies or is replaced, it does change the shape and momentum of an organization.

    This is from that link (none / 0) (#162)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:51:34 PM EST
    Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi does not have the ability to sway opinion. This is where he is facing some difficulty. Some of his commanders have gone astray for unknown reasons. They may go and organize themselves if Baghdadi doesn't shape up.

    Which is pretty interesting.  And doesn't really support the idea that they are not a threat.

    Baghdadi declared a caliphate, and anyone who knows theology and the background would realize that this declaration, according to traditional fiqh, puts an obligation of anyone who is religiously observant to declare allegiance. There hasn't been a caliph for 100 years, the last one was during the Ottoman Empire. Even Saudi Arabia doesn't declare themselves a caliph. No one does.

    Baghdadi has delivered, changing the name from the Islamic State in Syria and the Levant to the Islamic State. Declaring himself a caliph and asking people to pledge allegiance. We are not only looking at a person, which is very important, but more important, the message and what he delivers in a very short period of time is beginning to concern people.

    I think some of his commanders (none / 0) (#164)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 09:15:01 PM EST
    Might be "negotiated" with.  I can't believe they are all are so damaged all they yearn for is bloodlust.  In fact some of them may be involved on a subconscious level in order to avoid becoming the next corpse.

    There will be no easy way through it.


    Sqeaky (none / 0) (#159)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:41:21 PM EST
    the problem is RADICAL FUNDAMENTALISM. Fundamentalism is the problem and fundamentalism is spawned by people who think the past is the answer to the future. They believe in an authoritarian society because they believe freedom leads to societal collapse. They believe that people are inherently evil and will all do evil unless "controlled".

    You have a lot of desperate people and you get some leader who uses religious texts to gain power stir it all together with zealots who are convinced they are doing the work of God and you have one huge toxic mix.

    So many people don't seem to understand fundamentalism and how it's become extremely toxic.


    What's changed? (none / 0) (#168)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 09:56:55 PM EST
    The price of oil.

    I have no issues with Islam itself (none / 0) (#104)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:08:41 PM EST
    Catholicism and Christianity have plenty of ancient flaws and I have no problem with acknowledging them.

    However for whatever reason Christianity has been mainstreamed into Western culture and does not dominate our lives like Islam does much of the Islamic world.

    Can you at least acknowledge a difference there?

    Also here is a great link explaining Sharia Law.

    I don't know why it is the case and would love to hear why you think so but something makes is more likely that if you live in an Islamic country you will be governed by your religion rather then secular laws.


    Fortunately (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:27:18 PM EST
    what you are saying has not happened with Christianity but there are Christians who exactly want to mirror what has happened in the middle east here in the US. I have one as my representative in the house Barry Loudermilk. He's a Christian re-constructionist.

    His exact point is that there are (none / 0) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:30:57 PM EST
    over riding civil laws in a free society that keep him from doing that.  
    I have argued many time that there is little difference in the dark hearts.   So thank god for the constitution.

    But (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:13:53 PM EST
    you know what? I wonder if that enough to stop them? They are so convinced that we really are or need to be a christian nation.

    I'm hoping for defeat at the ballot box. Enough defeat at the ballot box will perhaps chastise them.


    Let me put it this way (none / 0) (#144)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:19:37 PM EST
    if they try, the resistance I join will make the ruthlessness and brutality of ISIS pale by comparison.  

    I frankly (none / 0) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 07:08:36 PM EST
    would worry more about some of the rural areas some of this stuff happening. Especially the rural south and other areas where they believe they don't have to obey the federal laws. Where they can corrupt the sheriff's department etc.

    The Islamic World (none / 0) (#112)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:13:01 PM EST
    As of 2010, over 1.6 billion or about 23.4% of the world population are Muslims.[4] Of these, around 62% live in Asia-Oceania,[5] 20% in the Middle East-North Africa,[6] 15% in Sub-Saharan Africa,[7] around 3% in Europe,[8] and 0.3% in the Americas.[9][10][11][12]

    Which Islamic world are you referring to?


    This Islamic World (none / 0) (#114)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:15:00 PM EST
    The one living under Sharia Law

    Most of North Africa, the Middle East and parts of Asia live under either total Sharia law or Personal Sharia law.

    That's too much for me.


    For the better part of 20 years ... (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:35:46 PM EST
    ... during the first half of the 19th century, residents of the Kingdom of Hawaii were subjected to a very harsh regimen of laws based wholly upon Calvinist Christian doctrine, thanks to the not-so-benign influence of hundreds of recently arrived U.S. Protestant missionaries from New England, who had been welcomed warmly and sponsored by the Kuhina Nui (regent), Queen Kaahumanu.

    Kaahumanu, who had been the favorite wife of the late King Kamehameha I, had seized power upon her husband's death in 1819. She ruled the islands with an iron grip in the name of her two young stepsons, Liholiho (Kamehameha II) and Kauikeaouli (Kamehemeha III). With the assistance of the American missionaries, she imposed these draconian laws as a means to further consolidate her own political control over the islands. These laws included:

    • The requirement that all citizens and residents (including non-Hawaiian foreigners) attend church services every Sunday and religious holiday;
    • The prohibition against multiple marriages with an accompanying vigorous enforcement of monogamy;
    • The prohibition against nudity and "any wanton and lascivious display of human flesh";
    • The prohibition of the sale and use of all liquor and other intoxicating spirits and beverages (including kava root); and
    • The wholesale prohibition of the practice of Roman Catholicism and other "questionable faiths and idolatries" (such as the native Hawaiian religion, including the hula), under penalty of long-term imprisonment and even death for any transgression.

    It was only after the timely arrival of several French warships in Honolulu in 1839 to secure the release of several Catholic priests then being held in captivity by Hawaiian authorities, that Kamehameha III -- Kaahumanu had died in 1832, leaving him in charge -- finally rescinded the laws of religious exclusivity which had favored the resident Congregational Church formally established by American missionaries in 1820, and henceforth decreed that all religions and faiths would be respected in the islands.



    I was watching (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:17:05 PM EST
    a documentary on prohibition the other night. It was interesting how religion got that passed. Even though it was inherently authoritarian it spawned some movements for more liberty like women having the right to vote.

    Ken Burns ? (none / 0) (#147)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:24:50 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 07:05:18 PM EST
    it's on Netflix and it's fascinating. Some of the stuff you could actually put right into what is happening today. Part of what fueled prohibition was anti-immigrant bigotry against Germans and the society for preservation of German culture that people like Augustus Busch led were hated as much back then as some of the organizations for Hispanics are today.

    Interesting (none / 0) (#128)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:40:46 PM EST
    but I think he was referring to the present day.

    From the link (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:53:59 PM EST
    Iran's Islamic Revolution in 1979 gave Shia cleric Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini the opportunity to implement his vision for an Islamic government ruled by the "guardianship of the jurist" (velayat-e faqih), a controversial concept among Shia scholars that is opposed by Sunnis, who have historically differentiated between political leadership and religious scholarship. Shia ayatollahs have always been the guardians of the faith. Khomeini argued that clerics had to rule to properly perform their function: implementing Islam as God intended, through the mandate of the Shia Imams.

    Exactly (none / 0) (#110)
    by Slado on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:11:12 PM EST
    A whole form of government was established to enforce the rules of a religion.

    Really is no comparison in the other religions to that.


    CDC seems to be replacing doctors (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by ragebot on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:09:46 PM EST
    with spin doctors.

    I am watching their news conference live now and it is clear there are many questions they do not want to answer.

    From the little information the press is getting out of the spin doctor it seems the ebola patient in the Texas hospital is not a US citizen and traveled to the US to visit relatives.  He arrived in the US on the 20th, sought treatment on the 26th, was sent home from the hospital, and returned on the 28th and was admitted.

    Gotta say this scares me.

    I hAve to agree (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:18:00 PM EST
    i understand the desire to resist saying anything that might cause "panic".
    We are conditioned to think our government agencies "got this".  Whatever this is.  On a day when the head of the freakin secret service can't explain why a moron got to streak through the whitehouse and a maid discovered that bullets had hit the windows when the agents were clueless, well, it scares me too.

    Ebola patient (none / 0) (#122)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:29:21 PM EST
    And just who is surprised by this??? I'm not.

    We have open borders allowing anyone in and too many people who are unconscious to the predictable consequences thereof.


    Open Borders? (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by squeaky on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 07:03:35 PM EST
    And maybe someone will cross the border, sneak into a US school, graduate, go to Med School and discover a cure for Ebola or contribute some other wonderful things to US and the world.

    Sadly for your "point" (none / 0) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:36:11 PM EST
    the case on TX has nothing whatever to do with illegal border crossings.  He is Liberian and came in the old fashioned way.  With a passport to visit relatives.

    Capt your point is well taken (none / 0) (#133)
    by ragebot on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:48:37 PM EST
    about this guy being in the country legally.

    But Uncle Chip also has a different point.  What happens if someone does cross the border illegally and winds up suffering from ebola.

    The CDC made great efforts to say they would be contacting every one they suspect might have been subject to exposure (while pointing out that was a limited number of known people) from the Liberian guy.  The CDC knows who was on the plane and to some extent who the guy contacted.

    If someone crossed the boarder illegally suffering from ebola no one knows who they have been in contact with or where the virus may have possibly spread.


    Well (none / 0) (#137)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:00:17 PM EST
    the incubation time is supposed to be 2-21 days.   IMO there are plenty of reasons to be worried about this but more hysteria about someone walking across the TX border With Ebola is pretty low on the list.

    Not impossible but neither is being hit by a meteor.


    I just heard someone (none / 0) (#141)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:14:47 PM EST
    suggesting that he may have known he was infected and concealed it to come here for treatment.
    THAT is scary.

    IS There Really a Difference ? (none / 0) (#146)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:23:20 PM EST
    I mean seriously, the outbreak is West Africa, that is one hell of a trip to make without an airplane yet remain physically strong enough to cross the border.

    The real concern is planes and airports, and the millions of people in close quarters spreading all over the planet in under a day.

    If the outbreak works it's way to the south of us, people border crossing won't be the fear, it will be the illegal drug chain that goes into every nook and cranny of America.



    Scott (none / 0) (#148)
    by ragebot on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 07:01:13 PM EST
    I am not convinced it would be impossible for a person to get on a plane in Africa, fly to Mexico, get on a train for a couple of days, and walk or be smuggled over the border before symptoms develop.

    But I would be more worried about someone flying from Africa to Canada and more quickly getting across the border to a large city.


    American adults face a much greater ... (none / 0) (#169)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:07:53 PM EST
    ragebot: "If someone crossed the boarder illegally suffering from ebola no one knows who they have been in contact with or where the virus may have possibly spread."

    ... health threat from within our own borders than from without, specifically from U.S. parents who for some unfathomable reason have either declined to have their children vaccinated in a timely manner against formerly common childhood diseases such as chicken pox, measles and whooping cough, or have refused to do so outright.

    As a result, we've experienced significant outbreaks of illnesses that were otherwise considered all but eradicated in the United States, once upon a time. And in my considered estimation, that's both stupid and unconscionable.

    I've suffered from chicken pox as an adult; it was a highly unpleasant experience that left me hospitalized, and one which I wouldn't wish on anyone. But for older adults and those persons who suffer from compromised immune systems, the varicella virus that causes chicken pox and shingles can be very deadly.

    So, rather than work ourselves into an incoherent frenzy over the highly unlikely prospect of an African-borne virus like Ebola ever taking root here, I'd consider it a far better use of our time and efforts to instead consider seriously those matters about which we can actually do something to either solve or mitigate.



    We lost power for a bit this afternoon (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:45:18 PM EST
    they were going around cutting trees around the line to protect them from the winter storms.

    And the knocked the line down.  Oh well.  At least they had a nice day to fix it.

    Article in Salon... (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by desertswine on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:33:21 PM EST
    Reza Aslan takes down Bill Maher over Islam.
    "Islam doesn't promote violence or peace. Islam is just a religion, and like every religion in the world, it depends on what you bring to it. If you're a violent person, your Islam, your Judaism, your Christianity, your Hinduism, is going to be violent."

    More (none / 0) (#173)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 01, 2014 at 08:30:18 AM EST
    That shows Maher (and CNN) should get educated before they speak:

    CNN hosts Don Lemon and Alisyn Camerota took up the matter last night with Aslan. They noted that Maher continued his anti-Islam monologue by referencing the "circumcision for women, not respecting the rights of women, not respecting the rights of gay people." Then they placed Maher's allegations in front of Aslan, who ripped them apart: "When it comes to topic of religion, [Maher is] not very sophisticated the way he thinks." The scholar noted that the problem of female circumcision is a "central African problem," and not a Muslim problem.

    When Lemon asked Aslan to "be honest" and admit that "it's not a free and open society for women" in Muslim-majority countries. Aslan: "Well, it's not in Iran, it's not in Saudi Arabia. It certainly is in Indonesia and Malaysia, it certainly is in Bangladesh, it certainly is in Turkey. I mean, again, this is the problem is that you're talking about a religion of 1.5 billion people and  certainly it becomes very easy to just simply paint them all with a single brush by saying, well, in Saudi Arabia, they can't drive and therefore that's somehow representative of Islam. It's representative of Saudi Arabia."

    On a roll, Aslan later said, "These kinds of conversations that we're having aren't really being had in any kind of legitimate way. We're not talking about women in the Muslim world. We're using two or three examples to justify a generalization -- that's actually the definition of bigotry."

    Ok (none / 0) (#177)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 01, 2014 at 09:14:38 AM EST
    I went back and listened to Mahers rant again just to make sure I know what I'm talking about since I was really only half paying attention the first time.  I suggest we all do that.  I liked it even more the second time.   He is absolutely right that liberals, some right here, have been twisting themselves into pretzels trying to rationalize and justify enforced dress codes and more.   The whole point was to call this out.  And he did mercilessly.    I am not surprised some people are upset.

    It's funny that people are grasping the circumcision comment as "wrong" since there was not one other fact they could pull out of that that was not easily verifiable.  Every word was true.
    Sorry.   It was.  As for the other, he did not actually say female circumcision was a Muslim problem.   In fact he quoted statistics from two countries, 91% of Egyptian women and 98% of Somalian women have had this done to them.  And he did it to make the point that a Somali woman who suffered this was stopped from speaking at Yale because they did not like what she might have to say.

    Now, I'm done with this subject.  You are free to flame or ignore or troll rate or whatever does it for you.  As for me Maher is still my hero.  And instead of the statement he made I will end with the question.  ARE you really a liberal if you don't stand up for for liberal principals like freedom of speech and freedom of or FROM religion?  Everywhere.


    Bahdges??? Bahdges??? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:01:56 AM EST
    We don't got to show you no steeenking bahdges....

    Ferguson police still refusing to wear ID and ...

    The practice violates FPD rules.

    I can't really blame them when individuals (1.00 / 2) (#55)
    by leftwig on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 02:33:09 PM EST
    are encouragaging violence against or threatening to kill police officers in the FPD.  Some cheered the recent reports of shootings of officers, so yeah, I can see why wearing around a name tag might not be in the best interest of me and my familiy.  As long as a badge number is displayed, that should be sufficient until things calm down.  Are badge numbers being displayed at all times in the FPD?  I don't know.

    Oh, boo hoo... (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 02:47:55 PM EST
    if you can't blame them, I will: they brought this on themselves, so pardon me if I can't shed any tears for them now that the shoe's on the other foot.  How do they like being afraid to just go about their business?  

    If they're now afraid of retaliation, perhaps they should quit and find something else to do.

    Don't get me wrong: I am not advocating violence by anyone against anyone, and I'm reasonably certain there probably are some good, decent cops who shouldn't have to be paying the price for the actions of their fellow officers.  But don't ask me to feel sorry for them now that the chickens are coming home to roost.


    That Makes No Sense... (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:25:54 PM EST
    ...they have a right to hid one piece of identification so long as another is displayed that requires the very people hiding their names to connect the name to a number.

    Not that FPD is a smart group, but I highly doubt they overlooked the other way of identification.

    My advise, and certainly there are good cops in Ferguson, that if you fear identification, get out of a career that requires it.  No exceptions.  Without identification, all you have is a person a uniform, and it Texas, that means you are not required by law to do anything they say.

    I get the feeling that most cops became cops for the benefits of authority, and feel like they don't have deal with all the reasons most people don't become cops, the bad guys and the inherent danger.  There is this belief that more force is safer, which may be true for the cops, but not the public, which is who they are suppose to protect.  So we have cops who shoot and ask questions later, taze old people and kids so they don't have deal with insolence, and treat everyone like criminals, because that is so much easier and safer than actual police work.


    Going into law enforcement is (none / 0) (#82)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:39:51 PM EST
    a viable career path for a person who has finished a military stint as an enlistee non-com.  Or an ambitious high school grad interested in criminal justice.  Training provided and required. Retire at 55 w/health benefits and defined-benefit pension. Get a different job for 10 or 12 years. House. Two cars. Put kids through college.

    So (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:43:12 PM EST
    Why do they all seem so pi$$ed off?

    They have a very strict command structure. (none / 0) (#93)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:57:00 PM EST
    And being on patrol is mostly quite boring.

    Oh well (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:58:40 PM EST
    that certainly explains it

    t's a thankless sucky job? (none / 0) (#97)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:00:47 PM EST
    So my answer (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:02:22 PM EST
    would be get a different job.  Not shoot some one.

    Of course. Are you expecting an argument? (none / 0) (#109)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:11:10 PM EST
    No (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:22:58 PM EST
    but you never know around here.

    So is the Post Office... (none / 0) (#127)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:37:59 PM EST
    ...and a 1001 other civil service jobs in which service counts towards your pay grade.  Better benefits as well.

    That might be the problem, people deciding to be a cop because it's viable.  I don't even know what that means, is there a job former members of the service are not viable for ?

    I would hope people decide to join the police force because they want to protect people, make the world a safer place, or get into criminal justice system.


    Are you old enough to remember (none / 0) (#132)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:47:57 PM EST
    "going Postal".  link

    leftwig: "Some cheered the recent reports of shootings of officers, so yeah, I can see why wearing around a name tag might not be in the best interest of me and my familiy."

    ... the way "some cheered" at the killing of unarmed teenager Michael Brown, and then further bent themselves into contortionist's pretzels trying to find some way -- hell, ANY way -- to justify his shooting by Officer Darren Wilson. Speaking for myself only, I often find it amazing how karma sometimes seeks to restore the equilibrium of the universe.

    We don't worry about such matters in Honolulu, because the names of all HPD officers are embroidered with bright yellow thread into each and every navy blue uniform they wear, and those names are prominently displayed just above the left breast pocket. For those officers who are on the street as plainclothes personnel, they are required to carry business cards that clearly identify themselves as active duty HPD officers, and they are further required to hand them out to civilians upon request. Because here in the islands, we feel that in all matters of law enforcement, the people always have the right to know with whom they're interacting.

    Further, rather than be content to establish the presence of law enforcement within a given community, those persons who oversee the governance and regulation of police departments should instead ensure that law enforcement personnel become a fully integrated part of that community in which they serve. In other words, if you're going to work for a municipal police agency as an officer, you should be required to reside in that same municipality from which you draw your bi-monthly paycheck.

    Personally, I believe that such a residency mandate would go a long way toward mitigating and alleviating the mercenary instincts which are presently displayed with impunity by so many police officers throughout the U.S. mainland, such as those who work for Ferguson, MO. If officers are vested in their communities as residents, they are less likely to behave as an occupying force.



    I'm surprised you made this comment (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:52:40 PM EST
    without knowing whether or not the badge numbers were being displayed at all times.

    The answer to your question is no they were not.


    NO, there is no ID (none / 0) (#154)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:12:12 PM EST
    except uniforms with cloth insignias that represent which identifies which municipality employs the officer.  Remember cops are coming from other St Louis County towns.

    Also at least one of the damn I am Darren Wilson rubber bracelets was observed on an officer last night.
    Another detail from last night: one minister was separated from the other clergy and dragged away while he was leading the group in prayer. He was later released but after hesat in a prison van for a couple of hours starring at blood stained walls inside the vehicle.  He took photos.


    NO, there is no ID displayed (none / 0) (#155)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:16:58 PM EST
    except uniforms with cloth insignias which identifies which municipality employs the officer.  Remember cops are coming from other St Louis County towns.

    Also at least one of the damn I am Darren Wilson rubber bracelets was observed on an officer last night.
    Another detail from last night: one minister was separated from the other clergy and dragged away while he was leading the group in prayer. He was later released but after hesat in a prison van for a couple of hours starring at blood stained walls inside the vehicle.  He took photos.


    Rules??? Rules??? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 09:05:27 AM EST
    We don't follow no stinkin' rules///

    They have been (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 09:30:47 AM EST
    officially warned, in writing, by the AG of the U.S to not do that.  If there is more trouble and that is a factor there is gonna be some 'splainin to do.   And not to the feckless MO government.

    Twice warned in writing...and counting (none / 0) (#14)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:28:33 AM EST
    I'll admit when I'm wrong. I was sure Ernst (none / 0) (#8)
    by Farmboy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:40:17 AM EST
    would only find support with the bigoted fearful farmers of Steve King's district. I was wrong.

    DSM Register Poll: Ernst 44% Braley 38%

    Evidently the majority of statewide poll takers support her despite (or maybe because of):

    • her claims of personal secret knowledge about where Iraq hid their vast stores of WMD;
    • her claims that hordes of brown terrorists are pouring over our borders;
    • her claims that Obama is going to take our guns Any Day Now;
    • her claims that Obamacare is ruining the farm economy - in 2008;
    • her claims that the UN is taking away Iowa farmland and moving farmers into FEMA camps; etc.

    When I saw that it was a DSM poll, (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:50:27 AM EST
    all I could think was, well, of course - why wouldn't a poll sponsored by The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) produce these kinds of results?

    But maybe you meant the DMR (Des Moines Register) poll, not the DSM poll...

    Although it may be a distinction without a difference.


    When I saw "Steve King's district" (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:56:38 AM EST
    all I could think of was the author of "Carrie." Couldn't figure out how he would be included in a political discussion...

    Ditto :) (none / 0) (#33)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:35:19 PM EST
    It's not just the Des Moines Register (none / 0) (#12)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:09:37 AM EST
    It's several large models (and others who aren't mentioned in the article)...

    The models are also now in agreement -- unlike last week -- that Iowa's open seat tilts in state Sen. Joni Ernst's (R) favor albeit narrowly.  Election Lab shows Ernst with an 83 percent probability of winning but that looks like the outlier as Leo has it at 61 percent and FiveThirtyEight at 56 percent. (The Real Clear Politics poll of polls has Ernst up by two points over Democratic Rep. Bruce Braley.)

    Don't like this as DSM are my very initials... (none / 0) (#18)
    by fishcamp on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:35:14 AM EST
    but thankfully that is not my name.

    Hey, you're right, my mistake. (none / 0) (#46)
    by Farmboy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:42:42 PM EST
    This abbreviation for Des Moines must not be DSM, if you say so.

    Thanks for correcting my mistake.


    Wasn't trying to make a big deal of it, (none / 0) (#47)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:53:43 PM EST
    it's just that the "DSM" caught my eye, and I thought it was kind of darkly amusing to suppose that a "DSM" poll would produce results showing that a candidate who seems entirely cuckoo is leading that poll.

    Maybe nothing should surprise me anymore, but I seriously have no fking clue what would make someone - anyone - think this Ernst character is fit for public office - I just don't get it.


    Maybe because (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 02:03:06 PM EST
    Braley has acted like a doofus on the campaign trail.

    Braley's gaffes have been widely chronicled: complaining about the lack of towel service in the House gym during the 2013 government shutdown, a tussle with his vacation property neighbors over wandering chickens, and his disastrous Texas trial lawyer speech where he famously stated, "If you help me win this race, you may have someone with your background, your experience, your voice. Someone who's been literally fighting tort reform for 30 years, in a visible and public way, on the Senate Judiciary Committee. Or you might have a farmer from Iowa, who never went to law school, never practiced law, serving as the next chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee."

    The liquor cart speech, which insulted farmers, non-lawyers and Grassley supporters, was a true "47 percent moment," which may ultimately spell the political death of Braley. Emily Schul Theis of The National Journal recently wrote, "The ambitious lawyer-turned-congressman has become the Democratic version of Mitt Romney, and with the election approaching, he's working overtime to combat the image before it's the only thing that defines him." Jennifer Duffy, of Cook's Political Report, said, "The problem hasn't been the campaign or even the message, but rather the candidate."

    He also hasn't exactly had it easy in previous elections, even though he ended up winning.

    However, Braley had difficulty beating unknown candidate Ben Lange in 2010. Lange nearly upset the sitting Congressman, who only won by a scant 4,000 votes out of more than 200,000 cast. Braley's district, which is more heavily Democratic, seems to have had a hard time fully embracing him.

    Guess ya gotta be from IA. How do you (none / 0) (#87)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:44:38 PM EST
    pronounce "Des Moines" again?  So hard. Wait til the caucuses.

    Things like Ernst leading in the polls certainly (none / 0) (#139)
    by Farmboy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:13:41 PM EST
    do nothing to dispel east-coast attitudes that everyone in flyover land is an illiterate hick.

    As for the caucuses, the GOP one is a joke and the Dem version has less accuracy over the years in picking the eventual nominee than a coin flip.

    But the national media will show up, and find a corn field to stand in, and read from their scripts so the folks back in places what really matter can reassure themselves on what Ioway is really like.


    If she wins (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:57:10 AM EST
    it sure will embolden the tea party that's for sure.

    Lately, there has been (none / 0) (#37)
    by christinep on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:58:24 PM EST
    some suggestion that a kind of fear setting in that earlier dominated the 2002 and 2004 cycle.  In general--and as particularly noted on TPM--the thinking is that sudden, apparent "polling" shifts in states such as Iowa may reflect a fear-terror mentality provoked by ISIL. It may take a few weeks to fully surface and/or resolve itself.  

    In the meantime, consider that the foreign policy/fear theme seems to have been adapted in a few key states by Repub Senate contenders -- e.g., Tillis is supposed to be up with an ad in North Caroline relating to Syria and the Colorado Senate race has recently been marred by Repub claims harking back to 9/11 conspiracy theories with a claim that Senator Udall adhered to such disproven theories. (As for Colorado:  (1) The Rovian type claim against Udall has been quickly disproven and, last night, the RNC and others distanced themselves from it.  (2) Polling shifted in the past 10 days against Udall ... given the history of under-polling Dems in this state, tho, many believe that the extensive Democratic ground-game will prove to be squeakingly effective.)  Again, what is striking is the entry of "terrorist fear" into new advertising by some Repubs.  The terror-fear encore in advertising is also coupled with the portrayal of the President as the "reluctant warrior" and as the <fill in the blank> Democratic Senatorial candidate supporting weak defense, etc.

    We'll see, of course, whether the Repubs new-found ad line will grow or not in the coming weeks ....      


    ALL of officer Darren Wilson (none / 0) (#13)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:27:24 AM EST
    pending cases are on hold. Here did not show up for a hearing in the case of Christopher Brooks (2013 arrest) whose lawyer contends was beaten by Wilson.  No "Use of Force" report appears to exist for that arrest either. (Incident Report not referenced.) Lawyer is seeking the case to be dismissed.
    One FOIA request I am aware of for Wilson's arrest records has not been fulfilled; but I bet DoJ is on it-although Wilson apparently doesn't like paperwork.

    Well, it appears (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:58:03 PM EST
    can write when he wants to.  Again though it is several minutes before other POs arrive.

    I wish I could get paid for not doing paperwork my job requires.


    correction should read He [Wilson] did not show (none / 0) (#15)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:30:13 AM EST
    Of COURSE he didn't show (none / 0) (#17)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:35:04 AM EST
    He's currently in hiding.

    So are his "Use of Force" reports (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:43:41 AM EST
    More interesting would be whether (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:46:41 PM EST
    Brooks filed a citizen's complaint with Ferguson PD, did the agency investigate, what was the result?

    Might be a problem (none / 0) (#23)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:51:46 AM EST
    Or not, since Brooks has only just recently (after the Michael Brown shooting) claimed (through his attorney) force was used. If no force was actually used, would a report have to be filed? Does seem to be a pattern in Ferguson, though, of not having these reports (although, is one incident [Brown], maybe two [Brooks] a "pattern"?)

    And here's the incident report in the case.


    And (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:12:15 PM EST
    Brooks' attorney is doing his job - trying to zealously defend his client, and it looks like he just got a gift thrown in his hands with Officer Wilson's alleged actions in the last month.  He should be exploiting that and looking into what his client claims.

    On the other hand, it's kind of shocking to read well educated people on this blog (a criminal defense site), who don't seem to understand that there is no way Wilson's attorney is going to let him get under oath for a similar allegation while an ongoing investigation is still proceeding.  It would be ineffective assistance of counsel at best (and Wilson's Sixth Amendment rights would likely be violated), and malpractice at worst.


    I am not a lawyer (none / 0) (#42)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:16:42 PM EST
    I am not surprised that Wilson, under legal counsel presumably, did not attend.  But I am dismayed that these considerations are for his individual & personal legal protection while he is still on Ferguson government payroll.
    Although he was an invited as a witness to the closed grand jury, his initial failure to account for his police actions as the officer at the scene on August 9 was never in the best interests of his employer and the Ferguson residents. The exceptional privilege of cops to alternate between the judicial protections for individual persons and the customary responsibilities of their job is convenient.

    Key sentence in your comment (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:43:36 PM EST
    Does seem to be a pattern in Ferguson,

    Hard to determine what reports are missing when their reporting is so shoddy and they use every means in their power (like excessive fees) to kept from releasing pertinent information.


    I agree (none / 0) (#35)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 12:46:00 PM EST
    But in the case of Brooks, the assumption is now being made that there should have been one in the first place.

    This from USA today (none / 0) (#38)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:01:50 PM EST
    It wasn't clear whether Brooks made the allegation against Wilson before or after Brown was killed.

    From the Boston Globe:

    It wasn't clear whether Brooks made the allegation against Wilson before or after Brown was killed, and the prosecutor's office provided no immediate comment.

    Similar statements have appeared in all news reports that I have read.

    Prosecutor's office could clarify. But lack of transparency is seems to be the choice made by those in power.


    You mean the prosecutor's office that (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:05:37 PM EST
    is led by the District Attorney who wouldn't recuse himself from the Brown case, even though he had personal family history that might render him biased in favor of Wilson?  That prosecutor's office?

    Golly, I can't imagine what could be keeping him from being forthcoming about the timing of Brooks' charges.  


    CNN: New details emerging on the circumstances (none / 0) (#152)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 07:32:03 PM EST
    surrounding the shooting of a Ferguson police officer at a community center on Saturday.

    The suspect was pointing a gun at the officer's chest when the officer pushed it away, a law enforcement official said.

    That's when the gun went off, the official said, striking the officer in his left arm.

    With his right arm, the officer pulled out another weapon that he used to shoot at the suspect, the official said.

    The officer's wound was not life-threatening, and he was released from a local hospital after being treated. CNN

    Initial reports have suspect running away and turning to fire shots at the officer and now we have the unarmed officer standing toe to toe with a suspect with a gun that went off after being pushed away firing one shot which hit the officer. The only one firing multiple shots evidently was the officer.

    Initial report:

    Schellman said the officer saw a man in the back of the Ferguson Community Center. As the officer got out of his car, the man ran away, so the officer began to chase him. The man turned and fire shots at the officer, hitting him once in the arm, Schellman said. The officer also fired at the suspect, but police do not think he hit the man.

    Can't understand why anyone would doubt reports coming from the police in North County. <snark alert>


    It's par for the course (none / 0) (#163)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 09:05:35 PM EST
    Everything happening to the Ferguson Police Department since the Brown shooting falls into the category of Self-Inflicted Wounds.

    Your own hometown paper (none / 0) (#45)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:37:00 PM EST
    The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported it this way yesterday:

    Brooks declined to comment after Monday's hearing, but he has been anticipating a dismissal since last month, when he predicted in a Facebook post that the charges would be dropped. He also claimed Wilson "beat my ass in my front yard while I was handcuffed then gave me 6 felonies."

    Brooks also said that he had been "at war" with Ferguson and Dellwood police "since I moved to the county." The post was later deleted but not before being shared on social media.

    Do not think that Facebook has been established (none / 0) (#51)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 02:04:44 PM EST
    as the only vehicle used to lodge complainants against the police.

    His comment on Facebook does not address whether or not he made the allegation against Wilson before or after Brown was killed, or does it change the fact that the prosecutor's office has provided no immediate comment on the subject.

    The St. Louis Post-Dispatch states that he made a comment. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch does not state that this was the first time Brooks made the allegation. Only that he made an allegation on Facebook.

    Here are other things that they said in the article.

    The Post-Dispatch has requested records from Ferguson of criminal investigations conducted by Wilson or involving him but has not yet received them.

    Wilson has not been seen publicly since Brown's death and is currently on paid administrative leave. He testified Sept. 16 in front of a different St. Louis County grand jury, the one investigating the shooting of Brown.

    Asked why Wilson would testify in front of one grand jury and not another, Zotos suggested, "Well, it served his purpose. Today, it doesn't serve his purpose."


    And yet (none / 0) (#52)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 02:08:08 PM EST
    There is no evidence that has come forth so far that says he DID complain about it at the time - the only thing we DO know for sure is that he posted it on Facebook AFTER the Michael Brown shooting. Even his own attorney has not said so- and you can bet that if he complained at the time, his attorney would be all over the news with this.

    Everything else at this point is pure conjecture.


    Your statement of lack of evidence is not (none / 0) (#56)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 02:38:04 PM EST
    convincing since there is no evidence has been presented either way.

    We do know that the prosecutor's office was offered the opportunity to respond to the question of whether or not Brooks made this allegation prior to Brown's death

    We do know that the prosecutor's office has chosen not to clarify the issue at this time.

    While we are talking about pure conjecture, the following statement in your comment is a prime example of "pure conjecture:"

    ... you can bet that if he complained at the time, his attorney would be all over the news with this.

    It is every bit as probable that the prosecutor's office would be "all over the news" claiming that this allegation was not made until after Brown's death.


    Sure it is (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jbindc on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 02:50:09 PM EST
    But the only thing we have is Brooks' Facebook posting and now his attorney saying they have "other reports".  I know this is defense site, but defense attorneys aren't exactly bound by the truth when talking to the press, so his words should be taken with a huge grain of salt.  If he has other reports that show what Mr. Brooks alleges, then I'm sure we will see those presented at a hearing or trial (and please note, the other man with Mr. Brooks - Erik Johnson - has also been charged but has not been arrested, and is certainly not chiming it at this time to corroborate Mr. Brooks' claim).

    Which brings me back to my original point - this is all conjecture and spin at this point.  Until we actually see some, you know, proof of use of force, (since it is Mr. Brooks who will need to present it if he wants to make that claim), then speculating about it based on other events, alleged and real, and what facts we think we already know, is not a useful exercise.


    As we have seen neither the police or the (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:20:38 PM EST
    prosecutor's office has been bound by the truth when making statements in this case. How many revisions are we up to now? Any thing that they say should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

    Please note that Erik Johnson who also was charged but has not been arrested, is certainly not chiming in at this time disputing Mr. Brooks' claim. Again you offer no proof one way or the other.

    Your ongoing speculation that favors the police in the face of all the contradicting statements, arrests of reporters so that they cannot do their job, their ongoing attempt to keep police documents hidden, their actions to instill more anger in the community and their absolute determination to ignore their own regulations and the law whenever it is convenient is not a particularly useful exercise either. Yet, you continue to speculate and put forth "pure conjecture" as if it is fact all the while you lecture others not to engage in the very same action.

    Until you actually provide something that is proof you are in fact providing nothing other conjecture and spin.

    We could continue to argue whether or not your conjecture and spin is somehow superior but since I disagree, I would prefer not to do that.


    Actually (none / 0) (#156)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:26:40 PM EST
    The attorney may not have thought it wise to try "to be all over the news" at the time. Besides, regional reports of police questionable behavior didn't get much coverage before Michael Brown's death.

    From the PD article: (none / 0) (#68)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:51:10 PM EST
    Brooks' lawyer, Nick Zotos, said he has been told by Wilson's lawyers that Wilson would not appear at the preliminary hearing or in front of a grand jury.

    Imagine that --

    And not more than two weeks ago we were told by the same Post Dispatch how Wilson voluntarily appeared before the Grand Jury and they just had a love fest for 4 hours together.

    What a load --


    What, exactly, are you calling "a load?" (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:26:55 PM EST
    He testified to the GJ in his own case, but would not in the Brooks case.

    You do get that, right?


    Where (none / 0) (#84)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:42:14 PM EST
    Where are you reading that in the article???

    Huh? Please explain what "that" is, (none / 0) (#92)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:54:29 PM EST
    what are you not seeing?

    I will ask again (none / 0) (#96)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:00:03 PM EST
    Where does it say in this article that he testified before the Grand Jury???

    Please provide the words from the article.


    unclear. I still would like to know what you are calling "a load?"

    That's an actual question. iow, what does your comment mean?

    Again that's an actual question.

    "A load" is usually meant to mean bullsh1t, as in "a load of bullsh1t."

    What are you calling a load of bullsh1t?


    Load (none / 0) (#111)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:12:13 PM EST
    I still would like to know what you are calling "a load?"

    You're a big boy --

    You figure it out.


    I'll read your first comment as it is written; that (embarrassingly for you) you had no clue that the "Wilson no appear before a GJ" comment was actually about the Brooks case, and not the Wilson case.

    and in fact (none / 0) (#172)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 11:54:04 PM EST
    the same Grand Jury would be hearing the Brooks case, if it isn't thrown out because Wilson won't testify.

    lack of transparency (none / 0) (#49)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:57:45 PM EST
    driven by self-serving institutional malice

    Brooks Incident Report (none / 0) (#41)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:14:25 PM EST
    An interesting statement by Wilson in the Brooks Incident Report:

    "I requested them to walk towards me, both subjects complied"

    So Wilson's standard MO is to tell any subjects he is going to arrest to "walk towards him". It is something that he is no doubt used to and expects of his arrestees.

    And yet when MB "walked towards him" he filled him with lead and for a "crime" far less than dealing dope.

    Attorneys will no doubt take note while the rabble on the internet will ignore it.


    Uh, neither subject had attacked (1.50 / 2) (#165)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 09:16:13 PM EST

    Brown had.

    Trust you can see the difference in how they are treated.


    Oh stop blovigating (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 09:30:03 PM EST
    You offer no real evidence about an altercation
    There is no Incident Report
    Where is the Officer from the scene

    interesting (none / 0) (#48)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 01:54:48 PM EST
    So much of bad policing is about humiliation.
    Demanding the compliant actions of the targeted persons can be done in many ways. A police officer is actually asking a person to act against their own nature instincts, especially under recognizably unjust, discriminatory or erratic law enforcement.

    A terrorizing police force, as it seems FPD is for a majority of the residents, should have been recognized by honest Missourians long ago.

    Working against powerful odds, lawyers working for Arch City Defenders documented unjust activities that have continued to be ignored and discounted for years. http://www.archcitydefenders.org/whitepaper.pdf


    Police out of control (none / 0) (#53)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 02:22:20 PM EST
    They continue to refuse to follow their own regulations and ignore two separate orders by the DOJ to comply with name tag regulations.

    Reported Sunday by NYT:

    A gaggle of journalists standing near the protest spotted a police officer who was not wearing a name tag. When a cameraman asked his name, the officer refused to give it and left the area. The Department of Justice last week ordered all officers patrolling Ferguson to display their names.

    MO (none / 0) (#72)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:59:17 PM EST
    A gaggle of journalists standing near the protest spotted a police officer who was not wearing a name tag. When a cameraman asked his name, the officer refused to give it and left the area.

    I hope they got his photo and present it to the FPD Chief and the County Chief and the FBI.

    Rather than reach into his pocket and put his badge on or just give them his name, he abandons his post.

    Is that the kind of officers on the streets of Ferguson???


    More Importanly... (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:31:49 PM EST
    ...how do they know it was a cop ?

    Anyone can buy a cop uniform on eBay, so how is the public to know which people are dressed early for Halloween and which ones are police officers ?

    They are playing a dangerous game and may not end well when someone decides not to listen a guy in a cop uniform.


    I'm sure there are very stiff penalties (none / 0) (#83)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:41:26 PM EST
    for impersonating an officer.  Even as actual officers are doing their best to not impersonate one.

    Nice responce (none / 0) (#157)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:29:01 PM EST
    response (none / 0) (#158)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:29:34 PM EST
    You may be right -- (none / 0) (#94)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:57:06 PM EST
    All the more reason for the police to police their own.

    Are they bringing in rent-a-cops from other surrounding departments???

    That might be the case but that's been going on since day one and that's no big deal as long as they wear their badges. Cops from the city of St Louis have been manning the streets up there from early on with no difficulty -- and they like the overtime pay.

    With only a 53 man police force every cop on the streets for Ferguson should know every other cop and make sure their badges with names are visible.

    The only reason not to have identification badges is if they are bringing in ringers to cause problems and stir up trouble and their anonymity will allow them to discretely slip away afterwards and the department deniability.

    For 4 weeks they have had an ex-con of the politically-correct race as a consultant and I can guarantee that he is not advising them to abide by the rules.


    It Not About the Cops... (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:49:35 PM EST
    ...knowing who is a cop, it's about the public knowing who is a cop and who isn't.

    About once a year there is a cop impersonator in Houston, either knocking on doors or pulling people over.  Their motives are criminal, usually theft and/or rape.

    The public needs to be able to identify a police officer beyond a uniform and a flashing light.


    It is also important to Identify (none / 0) (#161)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:45:14 PM EST
    a particular officer if an inappropriate, illegal or unprofessional action is made against a demonstrator or in a case of an officer actually doing his job well. This is necessary legally when regress is taken.

    Without IDs no individual officer can be distinguished except by body characteristics and we all know eye witness accounts can be refutted.  When and if Ferguson government decides or forced to fire or discipline any cops this would be important.  There is clear history in rhis police department of very selective (read discriminatory) discipline.


    Ferguson Use of Force Regulations (none / 0) (#121)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 05:27:32 PM EST
    G. Supervisor s Use of Force Report F-080

    The following examples are intended to clarify the circumstances when a supervisor is required to complete a Use of Force Report

    1.A police officer places a suspect under arrest. The officer directs the suspect to place his hands behind his back. The suspect refuses to follow direction, stating he does not want to be handcuffed. The officer grabs the suspect s hand and applies a wristlock to control the individual. The suspect, experiencing pain as a result of the wristlock, complies with the officer s request and is handcuffed. A Use of Force Report (F-080) is required because pain compliance physical force was used. Notification must be made to the watch commander as required by the Order.

    2.A police officer places a suspect under arrest. As the officer is applying the handcuffs, the suspect pulls his arm free and attempts to run from the officer. The officer chases the suspect, tackles the suspect and applies the handcuffs. Due to the fact that there were extraordinary circumstances, a Use of Force Report must be completed.

    After reading Wilson's narrative in the Incident Report for Brook, it appears that similar circumstances existed in the arrest of Brooks and a Use of Force report was warranted.

    Due to the format of the Incident Report I am unable to copy the pertinent data.


    Ferguson police documents (none / 0) (#167)
    by Palli on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 09:50:21 PM EST
    a devastating article by Jason Leopold & Alice Speri about FOIA document compliance at the FPD fiefdom

    Really good article (none / 0) (#171)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 10:40:44 PM EST
    Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

    "Transparent" (none / 0) (#71)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 03:58:53 PM EST
    this series looks really interesting .  I really like Jeffery Tambor.  Not sure I am curious enough to get Amazon Prime.  Which is clearly the point.  But maybe almost.
    If you are interested in an excellent exploration of this subject And not ready for A Prime it has been done before.  There is an excellent movie called "Normal" which I was surprised to find sports a 100% on Rotten Tomatoes

    Actually (none / 0) (#74)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 04:06:25 PM EST
    after reading about the series Normal sounds more interesting.  In Normal there is a wife, Jessica Lang, who is brilliant as usual as well as adult kids.   It's a true story.  They were kicked out of their church.  It's great.  And best of all it has a more or less happy ending.

    That didn't take long. (none / 0) (#143)
    by lentinel on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:19:03 PM EST
    The war on ISIS - our bombing - closing in on a billion dollars and counting - the most "serious threat" we have ever faced - has disappeared from the front pages.

    A triumph. (none / 0) (#145)
    by lentinel on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 06:23:04 PM EST
    We have just signed an agreement with Afghanistan which will "allow" us to remain there after 2014.

    Isn't that great?

    The 1% flys (none / 0) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 30, 2014 at 08:01:32 PM EST
    check out these amazing accommodations in Singapore Airlines Suite class

    Few among us ever get to turn left when we get onto an airplane (although there's always the honeymoon upgrade - they all do that, right?).

    But these pics give a small glimpse into how the other half travels. And it's pretty epic.

    Okay, we knew you got a bed and some had actual bars in the middle of the plane, but when did private suites and shower rooms become a thing? The next time we go long-haul, we're totally wearing our power suit (note to self, buy power suit).

    And here's just some of the luxury temporary accommodation on offer should you get that elusive upgrade.

    So here's an angle you don't hear much about (none / 0) (#174)
    by jbindc on Wed Oct 01, 2014 at 08:34:55 AM EST
    Coming soon to the House GOP? More Moderates?

    House Republicans may be near their saturation point in their conquest of ruby-red-state congressional districts. That leaves them one remaining frontier for growth: swing states.

    A number of Republicans this year are running competitively in blue- or purple-state seats now held by Democrats. So while recent election cycles have swept a host of conservative and tea-party-backed GOP candidates into Congress, the next freshman class could well include more moderates and lawmakers who owe their allegiance to current party leadership.

    That influx could dampen the impact of the still-powerful tea-party wing of the GOP Conference, while handing Speaker John Boehner an easier path--though still not a sure one--to holding onto his job.


    Much of the public focus and media emphasis this cycle have dwelled on the fact that in as many as a dozen seats already safely held by Republicans, retiring or defeated GOP moderates are about to be replaced by more-conservative members.

    That includes, for example, a district in Wisconsin where it appears the retiring Tom Petri will be succeeded by Glenn Grothman, a conservative state senator, and one in Texas, where Ralph Hall was defeated in a primary by John Ratcliffe.

    Much of this speculation has centered on what that might mean personally for Boehner, and whether he'll have to contend with more rebels come January.

    But several House members interviewed Monday said that what they view as potentially far more significant--at least to the long-term sustainability of a House Republican majority--are the impending pickups of several swing-state seats.

    Our ally in action: (none / 0) (#175)
    by lentinel on Wed Oct 01, 2014 at 08:43:04 AM EST
    WASHINGTON -- Iraqi pilots mistakenly delivered food, water and ammunition to Islamic State militants on a recent mission that was meant to supply their own service members with the supplies, NBC News reported.

    "Some pilots, instead of dropping these supplies over the area of the Iraqi army, threw it over the area that is controlled by ISIS fighters," Hakim Al-Zamili, a member of the Iraqi parliament and a senior security official, told NBC. "Those soldiers were in deadly need of these supplies, but because of the wrong plans of the commanders in the Iraqi army and lack of experience of the pilots, we in a way or another helped ISIS fighters to kill our soldiers."

    The pentagon is not commenting, and neither will I.

    The article (none / 0) (#176)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Oct 01, 2014 at 09:01:44 AM EST
    Iraqi pilots mistakenly ...

    mistakenly???? or deliberately???