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Tuesday Morning Open Thread

Open Thread.

My early predictions for who will be on the Super Catfood Commission:

Republicans - House - Cantor, Ryan, Camp (Chairman of Ways and Means), ; Senate - Kyl, Alexander, Barasso.

Democrats = House - Clyburn, Van Hollen, Hoyer; Senate - Baucus, Conrad, Durbin.

< House Passes Debt Reduction Bill | Senate Passes Debt Bill, Obama Speaks at 12:15 >
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    Deep thought- Obama is a fine negotiator (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by ruffian on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:42:35 AM EST
    Progressives are lousy at negotiating with him.

    very smart comment (none / 0) (#192)
    by klassicheart on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 06:59:25 PM EST
    about the negotiating skills of obama vs. progressives

    Parent
    Once again...not a single female (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by oldpro on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:06:39 PM EST
    being cconsidered?

    I'm getting damn sick of this.  Starting to remind me of Biden's hearings re Clarence Thomas.  Thanks, guys.

    Maybe the women are too (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:52:24 PM EST
    damn smart to want to have anything to do with it; maybe they talked to Jan Schakowsky and she filled them in on the ugly truth of Simpson/Bowles.

    But, hey - Dianne Feinstein would be good - she was one of those calling for such a committee back in 2009; best to cut - I mean, "reform" - entitlements to help keep the peasants where they belong - and who better to do that than some of the wealthiest members of Congress? I mean, they "understand" what it's like to try to stretch a SS check from month to month, to search high and low for a doctor who accepts Medicare, to be physically breaking down after years of manual labor and wonder if they can make it to retirement age - don't they?

    Maybe the recommendation of the committee can be a one-page kind of thing that just says, "Let them eat cake!"

    And maybe then the revolution can begin.

    Parent

    Made me smile -- love your writing. n/t (none / 0) (#157)
    by jawbone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:12:02 PM EST
    says who? (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 02:02:48 PM EST
    this is a list Jeralyn generated of who she thinks will be considered.  It is in no way indicative of who will actually be considered.

    Parent
    Well, the liberal college educated (none / 0) (#194)
    by klassicheart on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 07:03:16 PM EST
    women were for Obama in the primary and against their own interests...It was the working class women who were for Hillary...Seems like some college educated women lack common sense...Very few of the blogs headed by women were for Hillary...save for TaylorMarsh.com   It is very strange...And of course Nancy Pelosi was a big Obama supporter...and progressive women don't seem particularly good at negotiating either...since they don't get very much from Obama...

    Parent
    Shameless Diary Promotion... (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 06:14:15 PM EST
    The third installment of the continuing drama available over in the diary section, "Mama Told Me Not to Come."

    I'm (none / 0) (#1)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 08:11:04 AM EST
    glad to see that Kucinich et al voted against the House bill.

    But I wonder, based on his cave during the health insurance bill debate - when the spotlight was on him and he came under intense pressure and he wound up voting against his own conscience - how he would have voted if his vote really would have made a difference one way or the other.

    On the economic front (none / 0) (#2)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 08:24:34 AM EST
    WASHINGTON (AP) -- Americans cut back on their spending in June for the first time in nearly two years and their incomes grew by the smallest amount in nine months, a troubling sign for an economy that is barely growing.

    Consumer spending dropped 0.2 percent in June, the Commerce Department said Tuesday. Excluding falling prices for such items as energy and food, consumer spending would have been unchanged in June.

    Incomes rose 0.1 percent. It was the weakest growth in income since September, reflecting anemic hiring this spring.

    Stock futures were trading lower after the report was released.
    ...
    Declining growth and rising unemployment have raised concerns that the country could fall back into a recession. link



    So, has anyone heard any discussion (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:16:11 AM EST
    about what happens if the deficit/debt deal doesn't lure the confidence fairy out of her hiding place to sprinkle magic fairy dust on the economy?  Has anyone heard any discussion about the wisdom of possible cuts to the safety net if the stock market continues to decline and makes a big dent in the retirement funds a lot of people count on to supplement their Social Security?  

    There's a part of me that resists buying into the stocks-are-up-so-all's-right-with-the-world meme, but I also have a dog in that fight: I have a 401(k) and a modest inherited IRA.  Now, since I am still working, and contributing to the 401(k), my contributions are buying more with the same dollars than they do when the market is up, so when the market does go up, I will make up lost ground - but the inherited IRA is one I cannot contribute to, and must take distributions from that are tied to the value of the IRA on 12/31 of each year, so even though it's not a lot of money every year, I'm looking at a lower distribution if the end-of-year value is down.

    My mother has an IRA that will be affected by a down market - reduce her SS too, and things may get a little tight.  I'm guessing there are millions like her, and millions who don't even have the benefit of any retirement savings.  What do they do?  In an economy where people can't get jobs, I don't imagine there will be any for the over-65 crowd, do you?  And millions like me, who actually would like to retire in the next 10 years, and who are wondering if we will be able to.

    Yeah, so what happens when a smaller deficit doesn't create any jobs?  When unemployment rises?  When consumer confidence keeps dropping?  When housing continues to stagnate?

    Who will the politicians blame then?

    Parent

    Anne (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by lilburro on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:35:20 AM EST
    about what happens if the deficit/debt deal doesn't lure the confidence fairy out of her hiding place to sprinkle magic fairy dust on the economy?

    You can't discuss the confidence fairy or you'll scare it away.  God!

    Actually I think a lot of the confidence talk has died down.  No one seems to have any expectations that this bill will help the economy.

    We are apparently set to "pivot to jobs."  

    Parent

    Krugman made that point about this bill (none / 0) (#109)
    by ruffian on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:15:39 PM EST
    not doing anything to help the economy on the This Week panel the other day and no one even attempted to contradict him. You could hear the crickets chirping when Christiane went to the break.

    This is going to be really bad. I think the 2nd dip might be worse than the 1st since all the reserves have been used up.  

    Parent

    Revenues (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by cal1942 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:58:01 AM EST
    will decline increasing the deficit.

    In today's mentality; more cuts.

    One safe bet.  Bet against any common sense federal policy.

    Parent

    You should be able to change (none / 0) (#23)
    by waldenpond on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:03:20 AM EST
    those accounts.  Through work, we had an annual option to change our mix.  If these are independent, contact them and find out how to lock them down... get out of the stocks and have it sit on cds and bonds if your goal is to stop the bleeding.

    Parent
    In fact, both of these accounts are (none / 0) (#31)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:09:15 AM EST
    in target-date funds, now more conservatively invested because I am getting closer to those target dates, and "safe" is over-taking "risky" in strategy - but even within the mix, the funds are re-balancing.

    Parent
    conservative stocks/investments (none / 0) (#47)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:39:56 AM EST
    would be better than CDS which are paying nothing.  It is possible to make more with stocks.  Bonds seems safe, the problem is, if I understand it, that when lots of people switch to bonds they become devalued.
    If someone is close to retirement, annuities are the way to go.  Annuities, depending on the type, are both safe and pay better than CDs.  If there is a disaster and you need those funds for health reasons/nursing home care etc... you can access 75 percent with no penalty.

    Parent
    On bonds, it's the opposite (none / 0) (#159)
    by Romberry on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:16:42 PM EST
    When people rush into bonds, the value (price) of bonds goes up and the yield (rate of return) falls.

    As far as making more money in stocks, yes, it is possible. But the bull market bubble of the last few decades has skewed that perception well past reality.

    A sobering exercise: Check total returns of stocks versus bonds for the last thirty, forty or fifty years. Heck, check total returns for the last decade. Stocks lag bonds in every period.

    Parent

    to stop the bleeding (none / 0) (#59)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:57:15 AM EST
    yes to stop the bleeding, you are right, CDs are safe.  

    Parent
    I love (4.50 / 2) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 08:39:13 AM EST
    that "fall back into a recession" statement NOT.

    Here in GA we have NEVER gotten out of a recession.

    Parent

    As long (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by cal1942 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:49:44 AM EST
    as the unemployment rate is higher than before the fall we're still in a recession as far as I'm concerned.

    Employment level should be the real measure for declaring the "end" of a recession.  But, that would refocus government and we know it won't happen.

    Parent

    I found it amusing (none / 0) (#5)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 08:44:56 AM EST
    that my Costco ad yesterday tauted the benefits of not waiting until Cyber Monday (the Monday after Black Friday).  Hello?  Talking about Cyber Monday in August?

    I sense that retailers are trying to get the last of the "confident" dollars before the recession really hits the fan....

    Parent

    There is a reason (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:20:18 AM EST
    High gas prices and unemployment have squeezed household budgets this spring. Many Americans are cutting back on purchases of cars, furniture, appliances and electronics. Consumer spending is closely watched because it accounts for 70 percent of economic activity.

    Sky high gasoline is flat out killing the economy yet the Democrats, and too many Republicans, are trying to ignore the fact that we need a loud public policy of drill more, drill now and drill here.

    Parent

    we need a policy of (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:51:45 AM EST
    regulating oil companies so that they are forced to be a benefit to Americans not a liability.
     I think most people do not realize that in early America, corporate charters were NOT awarded to companies who could not show they were interested in the public good.
    Now we seem to have come to the opposite view, that sodomizing the American public is a virtue.  Do we need to drill more and drill here?  I don't know that is true or if it changes anything.  I do know we need to be able to tell the oil companies to stick it.  The only way to do that is to become less dependent on their product.

    Parent
    The policy we have embraced, (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:35:03 AM EST
    driven by the man made global warming hoax, is that we must reduce consumption. And the way to do that is run up the prices. Consider that we allow speculators to run wild in oil futures and resist all efforts to regulate them.

    That should tell us what the policy is.

    Parent

    hmmmm (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:26:09 PM EST
    I don't believe that man made global warming is a hoax. I do believe that cutting consumption will eventually cut prices and kill two birds with one stone.  And since I am in favor of regulation to make oil corps deal fairly with the public, one point I agree with is.....regulation.

    Parent
    Climate change is the new buzz word (none / 0) (#122)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:03:38 PM EST
    because the earth is now cooling. Can't get the bureaucrats away from the trough.

    Cutting consumption might work in a free market but the oil market is not free.

    Parent

    Re speculators (none / 0) (#131)
    by BTAL on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:13:45 PM EST
    IMHO, future trading in consumables like oil, gas and grains should be restricted to the producers and consumers (airlines, farmers, etc.) to manage their costs and product deliveries.  

    Parent
    We already (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:07:08 AM EST
    have that policy. Salazar has been handing out drilling permits left and right so that's obviously not a solution because it's being tried and it's not working.

    Maybe we are just running out of fossil fuels and no one wants to tell us. Maybe the gas companies don't give a crap and are charging as much as they can and will charge more. After all their profits don't seem to be suffering at all.

    Parent

    And maybe you haven't been paying attention (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:20:14 AM EST
    to what is actually happening:

    Facing gas prices near $4 a gallon and a pivotal national election, congressional Democrats allowed a ban on offshore drilling to lapse in September

    But times change, and on Tuesday, the Obama administration - with gas prices roughly half what they were and many Democrats' having been swept into office - blocked offshore drilling plans put in place at the last minute by the Bush administration, including plans to open the national outer continental shelf for drilling.

    Interior Department Secretary Ken Salazar also announced last week that his agency would block drilling on public lands in Utah, criticizing the Bush administration for releasing its offshore drilling plan just days before leaving office.

    Link

    When the above was done, 2/11/09, gasoline was $1.81. After peaking around $4.00 it is now $3.72 and trending upwards.

    And maybe, just maybe, Obama wants high gasoline prices to please his environmentalist base. Said base must think cars run on Unicorn gaseous emissions.

    Parent

    Maybe she HAS been ... (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:45:32 AM EST
    ... paying attention:

    President Obama opens new areas to offshore drilling:

    In what could represent the biggest expansion of offshore energy exploration in half a century, Obama announced that he will open the door to drilling off Virginia's coast, in other parts of the mid- and south Atlantic, in the eastern Gulf of Mexico, and in waters off Alaska.

    April, 2010.

    Oops.

    Parent

    speaking of "gaseous emissions" (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by NYShooter on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:07:34 PM EST
    you still debate this guy as if he had an independent, cogent thought in his head?

    Parent
    I try my best to educate you and him (none / 0) (#125)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:08:06 PM EST
    but it is a difficult task.

    Parent
    Yes, as your demented hero, GWB, said, (none / 0) (#200)
    by NYShooter on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:20:00 PM EST
    "thinking is hard, really hard, so very, very hard."

    Parent
    Not much of a "debate" (none / 0) (#153)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:05:06 PM EST
    Just a mission to help out the "factually challenged".

    Parent
    That article was pre Deep Water Horizon (none / 0) (#128)
    by BTAL on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:11:21 PM EST
    Which resulted in those policies being replaced and/or a moratorium placed on both new and existing drilling.   The jobs hit on the new policies runs deep from both Gulf Coast drillers to all the ancillary industries and spending by those workers.

    Parent
    "And/or"? (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:02:46 PM EST
    Of course there were new regulations and a brief moratorium on deep-water drilling after the BP spill, but that moratorium was lifted back in October, less than 6 months after the spill and less than a month after the well was sealed.  My point was that Jim's article was outdated, as are any claims of a new moratorium, which also no longer exists.

    Since the new rules and information requirements have gone into effect, 67 new shallow-water permits have been issued (almost the same average as in 2009).  In addition, since February of this year -- following the lifting of the moratorium and confirmation of the industry's ability to meet subsea containment requirements - the government has approved 67 deep-water permits requiring subsea containment. Another 45 permits not requiring subsea containment have also been approved since October.

    BTW - Any studies to quantify the "jobs hits" to Gulf Coast drillers and ancillary industries due to new regulations?  It sounds bad, but I'd be curious how those losses compare to the cleanup costs, the $4.3 billion in lost property value, the loss of tourism-related jobs, the loss of fishing industry jobs, etc.

    Parent

    Have you ever been in an actual (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:16:19 PM EST
    commercial business and engaged in business planning?

    You can't run a business based on "now you can and now you can't... oops... maybe you can oops but only this much...."

    And with the DOW around 11866 I think the markets are seeing the utter failure of the Obama administration in energy, manufacturing and health care.

    Parent

    Yes, I have, Jim (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:34:01 PM EST
    Not sure what your definition of a "commercial" business is, but government regulations change all the time, and they should in response to a mult-billion dollar disaster like the BP spill.

    That being said, none of what you're now saying diverts attention from your original, false claims.  There is no moratorium on offshore drilling.  There was a brief moratorium before the spill which was the one you were referencing in an effort to "correct" Ga6thdem.  That was lifted long ago.  There was also a brief moratorium after the spill to allow time for developing new regulations to try to prevent such spills in the future.  The government has not, as you claimed "panicked and shut everything down".

    Both of your claims are false.

    Parent

    Shall we believe you or our eyes? (none / 0) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 04:45:30 PM EST
    Here is the comment:

    Facing gas prices near $4 a gallon and a pivotal national election, congressional Democrats allowed a ban on offshore drilling to lapse in September

    But times change, and on Tuesday, the Obama administration - with gas prices roughly half what they were and many Democrats' having been swept into office - blocked offshore drilling plans put in place at the last minute by the Bush administration, including plans to open the national outer continental shelf for drilling.

    Interior Department Secretary Ken Salazar also announced last week that his agency would block drilling on public lands in Utah, criticizing the Bush administration for releasing its offshore drilling plan just days before leaving office.

    And gasoline prices have climbed to near $4.00.

    Those are facts.

    No need to apologize for your gross personal attack, I have grown to expect them.

    Parent

    That's an easy one (none / 0) (#181)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 05:16:23 PM EST
    Me (the guy with the facts and evidence, as opposed to winger fairytales supported by, ... well, ...

    ... nothing).

    BTW - You're suddenly concerned about "personal attacks"?!?

    wow.

    Do you always reverse positions so quickly?

    Parent

    Why doesn't he revert to what was done in 2008?? (none / 0) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:14:32 PM EST
    That worked.

    What he has done has not worked.

    And what happened after 4/2010? And what did Obama do??? He panicked and shut everything down.

     

    Parent

    No, he didn't (none / 0) (#151)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 02:33:22 PM EST
    And what happened after 4/2010? And what did Obama do??? He panicked and shut everything down.

    Now you're just making more lies to back up your original, false claim.

    It's silly.

    Parent

    Please quit parsing (none / 0) (#161)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:22:32 PM EST
    The original claim was correct. I posted the article.

    Calling something "false" is the same as saying "lie."

    I realize you know that you have lost the argument and are now moving into personal attacks but please try to restrain yourself.

    Parent

    If that's what you "realize" ... (none / 0) (#170)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:38:36 PM EST
    ... after reading all of the actual facts I've provided for you, I rescind my offer to pick up your drinking tab.

    Can't imagine what that would run ...

    Parent

    Uh, weren't some of those put on hold after the BP (none / 0) (#165)
    by jawbone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:30:37 PM EST
    blow-up?

    Parent
    Yes, they were (none / 0) (#168)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:35:43 PM EST
    For a few months.  But the moratorium was lifted less than 6 months after the BP spill began, and less than a month after the well was sealed.

    Parent
    Obama has an environmentalist base? eom (none / 0) (#117)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:35:13 PM EST
    An old (none / 0) (#126)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:10:03 PM EST
    outdated and inaccurate link. I'm not surprised. See Yman below.

    Parent
    Very accurate and my reply (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:18:25 PM EST
    shows what he did.

    Parent
    No the (none / 0) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 02:24:14 PM EST
    link you put up was old and outdated because there is more current information. Now if you want to cling to your old and outdated information go ahead but Obama has been playing "drill baby drill" and it has done nothing.

    The gas companies are charging what they are because they can. It has nothing to do with drilling or any other thing you might like to think.

    I've read where the price would have to go to $6.00 a gallon before people started to conserve. We've paid this much before. I remember it being $4.00 a gallon or more here in GA before.

    The fact of the matter is that the gasoline prices aren't having AS much of an effect as you think. When I was driving 1 hour to work everyday, the gas price was around $3.25. It's now $3.65. The cost of my commute would not be significantly effected as much as it would by a family member losing their job. The problem is unemployment. It seems conservatives weren't complaining when gas prices were skyrocketing under Bush.

    Parent

    Oh please (none / 0) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:27:44 PM EST
    Look at the link. And what happened after 4/2010.

    Unemployment is the effect.

    High gasoline prices are the cause.

    And when gasoline prices shot up in 2008 Bush finally acted and canceled the stupid EO Clinton had issued and GHWB had extended and GWB let remain in place too long.

    But he finally acted, and the Demos acted and gasoline prices dropped.... Until Salazar/Obama did what they did.

    Parent

    If the EO (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 06:50:37 PM EST
    Clinton did was so stupid then why did they never go above $1.50 when Clinton was president IIRC and why did we continue to shed jobs even when gas was $1.81? If your "theory" held up, then we would have been gaining tons of jobs at the beginning of 2009 with the cheap gas but it didn't happen.

    You don't understand the concept of supply and demand apparently.

    Parent

    and yet (none / 0) (#166)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:32:39 PM EST
    the while gas prices were dropping, unemployment was going up.

    Parent
    Gas prices lead by several months. (none / 0) (#176)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 04:39:08 PM EST
    And in 2008 they weren't the only problem.

    Parent
    unemployment continued going up (none / 0) (#179)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 05:01:51 PM EST
    in the months that followed.

    "in 2008 they weren't the only problem"

    Now that I can agree with.  Guess what - same thing is true for 2011.

    Parent

    Uhhhhhmmmmm... GHWB issued the EO ... (none / 0) (#180)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 05:10:47 PM EST
    It was extended by Clinton, then GW Bush.

    And when gasoline prices shot up in 2008 Bush finally acted and canceled the stupid EO Clinton had issued and GHWB had extended and GWB let remain in place too long.

    But he finally acted, and the Demos acted and gasoline prices dropped....

    The lifting of the EO didn't cause the price of oil to drop.

    Energy Economist Michael Canes Senior Research Fellow at the Logistics Management Institute and former Chief Economist of the American Petroleum Institute (a proponent of lifting the moratorium): " ... attributing much of if not the entire fall in the price of oil to President Bush's lifting of the offshore drilling moratorium is not correct in my view."  ... Coincidence is not causation, and in this instance I'd say that the two events - the lifting of the moratoria and the ensuing reduction in oil prices - are much more in the coincidence realm than one of causation.  I say that for several reasons.

        1. There was a Congressional moratorium on offshore drilling in place at the time, and this moratorium was not lifted with the President's action.

        2. Even had that not been the case, the time from lifting of a moratorium to offshore leasing to drilling to discovery to production is measured in years, not weeks or months.   At best, the possibility of future production from the lifting of a moratorium might have had some very slight impact on the present price of oil, but even that is questionable because of the uncertainties and timing involved.

        3. Any such impact would be slight at best because worldwide production and consumption of oil at the time was about 85 million barrels per day, whereas new offshore U.S. discoveries from lifting of the moratorium likely would have yielded production of several hundred thousand barrels per day to maybe a million barrels per day, not many millions.  While every bit helps, such incremental amounts could not have reduced world prices by over one hundred dollars per barrel.

        4. Most oil market experts believe that the rapid and sustained reduction in oil prices that began in 2008 and extended beyond occurred because the world economy began to slow down and ultimately to experience a deep recession.   This is one way to reduce oil prices, but not a very attractive one.

        5. Finally, it is useful to put the President's lifting of the moratorium into context.  It occurred during the election campaign of 2008, at a time when gasoline prices had skyrocketed in the U.S., and it was accompanied by a request to Congress to remove the Congressional moratorium, putting pressure on Democrats to respond.  Just a normal part of politics, both sides push for such advantage during election season, the point only is that it's useful to understand the context of an action to better understand its rationale.

    Energy Analyst Joseph M. Dukert: "Nonsense! Panic drove oil to that peak in 2008, but it was primarily the recession that drove it back down so far. Furthermore, U.S. domestic supply and demand are factors in world price, but usually not as significant as a variety of others.

        Most energy economists applauded President Bush's action in regard to offshore drilling, but suggesting that this "caused" the precipitous drop in global oil prices is akin to the rooster's boast that his crowing brought the sun up."

    There are many more, but the post is getting long, and it'd be fun to hear from some experts that claim that lifting the EO caused the price of oil to drop so quickly, sooooooo ....

    ... (cue sound of crickets chirping)

    Parent

    I'll grant gas prices don't help (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by ruffian on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:20:40 PM EST
    but I don't hear anyone complaining about that here in FL. What I do hear is that everyone is underwater on their mortgages, even the people like me who can afford the  mortgage.

    Until the housing market comes back, no one is going to spend any discretionary funds. If I have to move, I will owe the bank 100k, IF I can sell my house. I don't think it is a good idea to spend money on furniture right now, and neither do my neighbors.  

    Parent

    Here it is (none / 0) (#129)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:12:49 PM EST
    housing too. People have been paying high prices for gas for years now. This is nothing new.

    Parent
    Gasoline was (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:26:32 PM EST
    $1.81 when Obama assumed control in 1/08.

    You think that was high?

     I guess $4.00 must be a Moon Shot!

    ;-)

    Face facts. Every time we have had high gasoline prices people quit spending for other items and the economy tanks.

    But instead of having a spoken policy of cheap energy, Obama told MSNBC on 8/2008 that he was okay with slow price rises.

    Well, guess what?? He got his wish and the recession has become The Great Recession!

    Link


    Parent

    Gas (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:42:09 PM EST
    will never be $1.81 / gallon again.

    Parent
    very briefly (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 02:17:24 PM EST
    once the entire global economy tanked.  Before that it was over $4 a gallon.  And before that it was between $2 and $4 a gallon since about 2004.

    So yes, when the entire market tanked there was a brief respite in oil prices.  But for the most part we've been living with $3-$4 a gallong for a while now.  Including back in '05 when Republicans had both houses of congress.

    When we had $1.81 oil the economy was in the tank.  Cheap oil didn't solve that problem.

    Parent

    Obama did (none / 0) (#149)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 02:25:42 PM EST
    not assume control in 1/08.

    Parent
    he got the year wrong (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 02:31:11 PM EST
    it was 1/09.  But I'm pretty sure the price is more or less right.

    Gas prices plummetted along with the rest of the market.  Funny, it didn't seem to cause a recovery though.

    Parent

    Thanks (none / 0) (#169)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:36:23 PM EST
    Yes 1/09... And $1.81 was a low. It just kept rising and the economy stayed flat to worse.

    Parent
    In the real world ... (none / 0) (#64)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:03:59 AM EST
    ... every study has shown that we can't drill our way out of it.  Increased worldwide demand has caused the rise in gas prices, and increased drilling in the US would be like adding a few more drops to the bucket - 10-30 years from now.

    Parent
    A journey of a 1000 miles (none / 0) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:30:48 AM EST
    begins with the first step.

    The world wide economy is in as bad a shape as we are and China by itself can't account for what you claim.

    And this Senator doesn't think so:

    .... most misleading is his claim -- also made by others -- that the United States has "about 2, maybe 3 percent of the world's proven oil reserves; we use 25 percent of the world's oil."

    Wrong.

    In truth, "reserves" is just one of several categories used to quantify oil... To classify a barrel as a reserve, you have to drill, prove the oil is there, and meet strict criteria established by the Securities and Exchange Commission......

    ....America has an estimated 22.3 billion barrels of oil reserves.... A recent Congressional Research Service report ....found that the United States' recoverable oil resources are estimated at 157 billion barrels. That is seven times as much as our reserves and doesn't even include the roughly 900 billion barrels of unconventional oil resources nearing commercialization.

    Consider this: While our nation's oil "reserves" have never reached 40 billion barrels, we've managed to produce nearly 200 billion barrels since 1900. Between 2008 and 2009, America's oil reserves rose more than 8 percent, even as roughly 2 billion barrels were produced. That was made possible by our substantial resource base. Reserves alone have never provided the full picture.

    WaPost

    Claiming that we can't do anything is like pigs wandering in the slaughter house lot waiting for their turn under the gate. They know that things are wrong but they take comfort in the presence of other pigs and never try to escape.

    Parent

    No one's claiming ... (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:55:28 AM EST
    ... "we can't do anything".  What I'm pointing out is your flawed premise - that we can "Drill, Baby, Drill!" our way to cheaper gas, particularly anytime in the next decade.  Lisa Murkowski's (R-Alaska) fairytale op-ed notwithstanding, no one who isn't pandering for the gullible, TP vote thinks we can.  Even with all the billions to be made drilling for oil, there isn't a single study (even by the industry) that supports the claim that we can drill our way to cheaper gas.

    It's not like this issue hasn't been studied by the experts extensively, Jim.  Tell ya what ... I can post a whole bunch of those studies showing the negligible effect domestic drilling will have on gas prices (in 10-30 years).  If you can find just one to the contrary, I'll pay for the drinks at your next TP meeting, and as we all know ...

    ... that's gotta be one heck'uva tab.

    Parent

    Actually I wouldn't drink a (1.50 / 2) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:07:06 PM EST
    beverage you paid for.

    Because a man is known by who he drinks with.

    And yes, you are a "do nothinger."

    The price of oil is, to a large degree, based on expectations. See what happened in 2008 when Bush finally acted and was then reluctantly followed by the Democratic Congress.

    Parent

    Not a SINGLE study? (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 02:12:45 PM EST
    Not even one?!?

    Heh, heh, heh ...

    We all know why that is, Jim.

    BTW - You misread my offer.  I was offering to pay for your TP tab, Jim .... not drink with a bunch of TP wingers.  Jeeeeezus ... rather go hang out in the local psych hospital ... they'd be a lot more fun and less angry.  Plus, ...

    ... they'd be more logical.

    Parent

    Was there something you didn't understand? (1.00 / 1) (#156)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:12:02 PM EST
    I would not drunk a beverage you paid for.

    Because a man is known by who he drinks with.

    And yes, you are a "do nothinger."

    The price of oil is, to a large degree, based on expectations. See what happened in 2008 when Bush finally acted and was then reluctantly followed by the Democratic Congress.

    Parent

    Yes - two things, actually (none / 0) (#162)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:24:51 PM EST
    1.  Why you are cutting and pasting copies of your own post, and

    2.  How you could misinterpret an offer to pay for your drinks as an offer to drink with a bunch of TP wingers.

    BTW - To be fair, it wasn't much of an "offer", since I knew you couldn't find a single study to support your debunked-so-many-times-it's-not-even-funny-anymore "Drill, Baby, Drill!" theory.

    Parent
    I wanted to make sure you understood (none / 0) (#164)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:30:14 PM EST
    my feelings regarding you.

    Are you still confused?

    No.

    Good.

    Parent

    That explains number 1, ... (none / 0) (#173)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:47:42 PM EST
    ... but not number two.  Unless, you're saying you deliberately misinterpreted my words so as to try to distract from your inability to provide any facts or evidence to back up your silly claims.

    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, ...

    ... got it.

    Parent

    An opinion piece? (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Romberry on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:19:48 PM EST
    You wanna set the record straight with an op-ed by a Republican senator from Alaska in the WaPo? Funny stuff.

    Parent
    What is up... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 08:42:53 AM EST
    with insect and/or spider bites around here lately?  MO Blue, vml, and now me:( Something got me good yesterday or last night, 3 fat red welts on my leg tender as all hell, and a little swelling.  In a line up my calf, probably means a spider.

    Hoping the black salve I applied does the trick sucking out the poison and gunk, not keen on racking up a just increased co-pay and meeting my prescription deductible.  

    May have to rethink my don't kill spiders in the house rule...this sucks.

    Sorry about the bite (none / 0) (#6)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 08:48:28 AM EST
    The "line up your calf" is not good.  You should go rack up that Dr. bill.  You probably need antibiotics.

    Don't kill them inside....just put them outside! if you have a yard that is. Or don't worry about killing them inside.  They aren't really beneficial indoors unless you have apids on your plants....

    Parent

    I like spiders... (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:08:12 AM EST
    cuz they eat the bugs...err I liked them, then they gone and ate me!

    I hear ya, if I see no improvement when I change my dressings after work I'm gonna make the call...I'll give my immunes a little time to do their magic, hopefully.

    Parent

    Me too (none / 0) (#20)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:54:18 AM EST
    Which is why I suggest kicking them outside...unless the inside of your home is bug-infested! ;-).

    I do that....see one in my shower?  It goes inside of whatever tool I have to get it, then goes outside.

    Parent

    Not infested... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:22:33 AM EST
    but we get our flies and mosquitos in the summer.

    Especially this summer, all this rain has made it especially buggy.  I remember reading somewhere climate change is a boon for insects in the Northeast too.


    Parent

    If it gets worse, please (none / 0) (#8)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:10:15 AM EST
    go see a doctor. The antibiotics that I was prescribed were generics and probably cost $13.00 or $14.00 if I had paid full price.

    I definitely did this: May have to rethink my don't kill spiders in the house rule...this sucks

    New spider rule: Stay out of the house or you die.

    BTW, We use to use black salve for everything when I was young. Haven't seen it around for a long time. What is the name of the product that you use?

    Parent

    They call it (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:20:44 AM EST
    Ichthammol Ointment now...I've used it for bad splinters.  Amazing sh*t.

    Parent
    MO... (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:13:29 AM EST
    can I ask how big your welt got? 2 of my 3 are approaching golf ball status now...could be the salve, or could be time to abort self-treatment.

    Parent
    Dude... (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:20:51 AM EST
    Get thee to a doctor right away!

    Parent
    Done... (none / 0) (#75)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:27:19 AM EST
    called the ins co to find out who my doctor is, squeezing me in at 3:30...getting very discomfortable.

    I think I need non-recreational prescription drugs, for a change:)

    I shall stop whining now, people have real problems.

    Parent

    Good decision. (none / 0) (#77)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:31:03 AM EST
    If nothing else... (none / 0) (#88)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:47:46 AM EST
    its about time Oxford shelled out some cash on my account, they've been makin' a killin off me and my boss:)

    Parent
    Call an exterminator (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:37:24 AM EST
    Where there is one there are more.

    Parent
    Good -- and at that rate of swelling (none / 0) (#80)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:39:15 AM EST
    go sooner if need be and let the doc's nurse see why you're there sooner (vs. a costly ER visit).

    I'm going to stop my self-pity party for the spider bites that I got a couple of days ago, that started itching again, madly, yesterday and kept me up through the night.  They're not swollen, so I'm okay -- but I know that d*mn spider venom means that I'll get a recurrence of the itching every day or two for a while.

    And yeh, as I got more and more vulnerable to that venom as I got older, I adopted the spiders-must-die in my house, too.  But these darn bites occurred when I was at an outdoor event in 100-degree heat, so I sought shade.  So did spiders.  They really are bad this year . . . and now the skeeters are starting to seriously swarm.  

    So every salve in the house is at the ready, as are my "itch sticks" that go with me everywhere.  Do you have those?  Pen size, at your drugstore.

    Parent

    Not itchy... (none / 0) (#98)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:59:13 AM EST
    or not itchy yet...too tender to even touch.

    Assorted pests are ridiculous this year...first the pooch brought fleas a month or so ago, bombed those suckers to kingdom come.  Then a bout with chiggers after my extensive landscaping, that was an itchy week, beat that.  Now this.

    Maybe Mother Nature has begun her offensive to rid the planet of the real pests...us.  Insects and arachnids as a first wave. Lets hope not!

    Parent

    Get 26% Deet (none / 0) (#171)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:43:18 PM EST
     Then a bout with chiggers

    Parent
    Sorry it took me so long to reply (none / 0) (#104)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:09:21 PM EST
    to you. Tuesday morning I go to my water aerobics class. Going to become a lean and healthy granny. I got the granny part down pat. It is the lean and healthy part that I'm working on.

    The welt was about golf ball size or a slightly bigger. There was a smaller irregular brown spot at the site of the sting and a very large irregular rash area that was slightly smaller than a volleyball. Nasty.

    Anyway, glad to read that you are going to have a doctor check it out. Better safe than sorry and even non toxic bites can get infected.  

    Parent

    Thanks... (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:16:03 PM EST
    MO...appreciate it.  Nowhere else I wanted to turn, spider bite pics on the web will scare the sh*t out of you! lol

    Parent
    The pictures for the cure for a (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:10:38 PM EST
    brown recluse spider bite threw me into panic mode until it was eliminated. Had enough chucks taken out this old body in the last couple of years, thank you very much.

    Good news even though my bite looked and felt truly horrible, it evidently wasn't one of the really bad insects. After the round of antibiotics, some prescription strength antibiotic ointment and a month's time it is doing fine. Still small spot but will soon be gone entirely.

    Good luck at the doctors office. Kept us informed.  

    Parent

    Maybe you and kdog should write a (none / 0) (#137)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:35:57 PM EST
    joint diary.  

    Parent
    Is that a pun? (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:37:59 PM EST
    "Joint diary"?

    :)

    Parent

    Rim shot for jbindc (none / 0) (#141)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:51:56 PM EST
    Need all the laughs I can get and that was a great one.

    kdog is on his own for a "joint" diary. Not a favorite of mine since it just make me more introverted and no fun at all.

    Parent

    You ain't kidding... (none / 0) (#139)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:38:27 PM EST
    I like to think I still got a decade of playing good ball in me, I need my wheels!  For a second I thought I stumbled on a gangrene site....that brown recluse bastard is no joke.  

    No headaches or nausea, thank goodness.  Appreciate the company in misery, I'll let y'all know how I make out.

    Parent

    Hey, kdog, let us know what the doc says, please. (none / 0) (#183)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 05:44:56 PM EST
    The pirate crew is in serious need of some medical R&R. Jeff has his biopsy today.

    Hang in there, guys. The pirate crew will survive. In the meantime, your captain is a bit concerned about you both.

    Parent

    I feel like an arse... (none / 0) (#185)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 06:09:39 PM EST
    compared to what some of the crew are dealing with, and have dealt with, my sh*t ain't sh*t.    

    No answers today, the primary care doc is unsure of wtf is going on and doesn't want to start antibiotics without knowing what we're treating here..bacteria, fungus, allergic reaction, etc.  Gotta see the dermotologist in the morning and do a culture.

    Thanks all for listening and caring...I'm sure I'll be right as rain and ready to swab the deck again in no time:)

    Parent

    You need to find out the cause (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 06:16:27 PM EST
    of the reaction so it is a good thing that you went to get it checked out. So no need to feel like an arse. Instead pat yourself on the back for being a smart dude who is eliminating the chance of this turning into something really serious. Keep us posted.

    Parent
    I second MO Blue here. (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 06:24:08 PM EST
    Getting your leg checked out was the smart thing to do. It's always better to catch a problem at the beginning, before it becomes huge, and deal with it.

    Yes, a peg leg is a pirate fashion statement of long standing, but it better serves the crew to have all hands, as much as possible, in one piece.  Don't forget, you volunteered to be the one who runs on our power generating treadmill, kdog.

    Keep us posted, please. You know how your captain worries. :-)

    Parent

    O Captain, my Captain, that is a great (none / 0) (#197)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 07:33:54 PM EST
    line about the peg leg and treadmill.  Perhaps this whole adventure could lead to a movie script?

    Parent
    Did the doc think (none / 0) (#199)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:19:30 PM EST
    about blood poisoning with the red lines? What is it with TL and doctor visits today?

    Parent
    Kdog, seriously, that could be (none / 0) (#201)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:20:30 PM EST
    very VERY bad... immediately bad, not 6-8 weeks bad.

    Parent
    Me too! I did not mention my fire ant bites (none / 0) (#198)
    by ruffian on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 08:11:07 PM EST
    on my ankle. Just FL living.

    Parent
    Reality Check (none / 0) (#12)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:33:13 AM EST
    Gallup:

    "A number of reporters and columnists have speculated on how Obama's role in the agreement will affect his support within his liberal base. A New York Times online story over the weekend declared, "Outcry From the Left Precedes Debt Deal," while Times columnist Paul Krugman, in a Monday morning column headlined, "The President Surrenders," accused Obama of "folding" in the face of Republican threats. The website Politico carried a story on Monday morning headlined: "Debt deal complicates liberals' support."

    Yet the data show that Obama's support from his liberal base remains as high relative to his overall average as it has throughout his term. Specifically, liberals' approval of Obama last week was 72%, 30 points higher than his overall approval rating of 42%. By comparison, liberals' approval has averaged about 28 points higher than his overall average so far in the Obama administration."

    Link

    AngryPollMan strikes again... (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:51:34 AM EST
    apparently not having absorbed the only reality that matters - our own: that we know how we feel and don't really give a hoot what "the polls" say.  So, if you're looking for an "oh, okay - well that changes things; if so many liberals support Obama, then make room on the bandwagon, `cause here I come, baby!!!" response, you're going to be waiting for a long - long - time.

    Do you remember the polls that showed the large percentage of people who believed Saddam Hussein was involved with the 9/11 attacks?  Do you know why they believed that?  Because the people who wanted to go to war needed the public to believe that.  It's garbage in/garbage out, and on any number of issues, the public has been fed a steady diet of garbage, and the polls - at all points on the political spectrum - reflect that.

    What other people think is not enough to make me stop thinking for myself; clearly, it's more than enough for you.


    Parent

    What interests me (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by lilburro on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:05:34 AM EST
    about the polls from this week is that Obama's "reasonableness" doesn't seem to have improved them.  I realize the "reasonableness" impression was being made to protect Obama and the Dems in case of default, but what is its usefulness now, that default has been avoided?  

    People seem fed up with DC and the debt ceiling process generally.

    Parent

    So we (none / 0) (#25)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:04:44 AM EST
    don't care about the polls today? OK.

    Just don't change the rules on me when a poll comes out on Thursday with numbers that make your point.

    Parent

    72 percent is abysmal. (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by observed on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:11:58 AM EST
    You should hide that number.


    Parent
    You care about polls, (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:21:47 AM EST
    which is fine - care about them all you like.  I don't care about them, because I don't think there's much to be learned from them, other than how well a particular message is being disseminated, and since the message is usually based on crap, I tend to think the results are, too.

    And here's a news flash - I don't cite polls, so go peddle that line somewhere else.

    Parent

    We have no (none / 0) (#52)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:50:26 AM EST
    other indication of Obama's reelection chances.

    Polls are relevant for that reason. But I understand your position and understand that you will not be referencing any polls in the coming months.

    Parent

    You (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:56:10 AM EST
    are interested in Obama being reelected.

    We get it.

    Parent

    Yes, we do (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:41:28 AM EST
    because I looked at the rest of the report, the data, from that poll.

    Look at the loss of moderates and independents, the crucial swing group.  Oops.

    Parent

    well thank God (4.00 / 4) (#65)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:04:45 AM EST
    since the only thing that matters is if Obama is good to go with guilty white liberals for another election.

    Parent
    So what? Remember the Bush (none / 0) (#14)
    by tigercourse on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:39:10 AM EST
    floor of 30 odd %? That's the same thing here.

    Parent
    His overall approval (none / 0) (#15)
    by lilburro on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:39:41 AM EST
    is at a new low, and his liberal approval has dropped by 7 points since the beginning of June.

    Of course liberals are going to like a Democratic President more than the average population.  Are we supposed to be shocked by that?

    Parent

    Memo to the Professional Left: (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:49:53 AM EST
    "the flogging will continue until the morale improves." B. Obama

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#24)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:03:38 AM EST
    And in fact the ratings for every one are down because people are upset at everyone (the various GOP candidates aren't doing well either).

    But if the liberal outrage over Obama's handling of this was as pointed as hinted here, what you would start to see is a greater drop among liberals than the other groups.  That is not happening. The next set of poll numbers will likely reflect a slight dip there, but it doesn't look like it will be much.

    Parent

    Why (2.00 / 2) (#66)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:06:32 AM EST
    do you identify yourself by race?

    Parent
    Because his anger is directed towards (4.00 / 5) (#86)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:46:19 AM EST
    white women who supported HRC. He admitted this, in a weak moment, a couple months ago.

    Parent
    that's a bit disengenuous (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:02:13 PM EST
    it was in response to an acronym we aren't supposed to use here.

    Which, while people may not like to talk about it, was a real "thing" during '08 beyond simply being white, female, Hillary Clinton supporters.

    Parent

    He said that's where his moniker comes from (none / 0) (#105)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:10:10 PM EST
    And the question posed today was why he identifies himself by race.

    Parent
    Ooof (3.33 / 3) (#90)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:48:40 AM EST
    A racist misogynist in Obamabot clothing?

    Parent
    I know (4.00 / 5) (#94)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:52:35 AM EST
    ...it's such a rarity! ;-).

    Parent
    ABG (3.00 / 2) (#106)
    by lilburro on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:10:56 PM EST
    can defend himself if he so chooses in this dumb minithread but he has commented on his handle before and you are mischaracterizing it.  Greatly.  He is pissed at people who undermine the President for "stealing" the election, for supposedly not being born here, etc.  

    To characterize his handle as an attack on white female supporters of HRC is absurd to the point of race-baiting.

    Parent

    except (5.00 / 5) (#118)
    by dandelion on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:36:37 PM EST
    I've followed his comments on Tennesee Guerilla Women, Shakesville, and the Confluence, all places he visited before finding TL, and in every instance his comments were designed to throw hand grenades at women, and those comments pre-date Obama's winning the primaries or the general.

    Parent
    dandelion is right on that one. (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:27:03 PM EST
    I knew him way before recent TL postings, from quite a few other blogs, and the stuff directed towards women was pretty fugly I must say.

    Parent
    Any info re DK commenting? (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:56:52 PM EST
    Phooey (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    There is nobody here - nobody - who goes around saying that Obama stole the election or that he wasn't born here. Nobody. So why lay that upon us?

    So much for the "angry" part.

    But I still ask, why identify himself or herself by race?
    You don't. Nobody on here does. Its maryfromqueens or harryr.

    As for whatever he or she might feel toward white women who supported Hillary Clinton, Shoephone indicated that he expressed that that also angered him. But I did not see that "admission" so perhaps I should not have accepted it at face value. But I have seen him disparage people who criticize Obama as Hillary supporters. Even now. Something's amiss.

    Parent

    Oh, cry me a phuckin river (none / 0) (#108)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:14:25 PM EST
    Shoephone (none / 0) (#119)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:56:25 PM EST
    Can you possibly locate that admission?

    I would like to see it.

    Parent

    Not Shoephone (none / 0) (#175)
    by Nemi on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 04:28:43 PM EST
    but maybe you'll find it in this thread?

    (Don't have the stomach/patience to revisit it myself, heh.)

    Parent

    There (none / 0) (#195)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 07:05:49 PM EST
    are plenty of references to Hillary Clinton - and the people who supported her.

    But he is also all over the place.

    He likes being a provocateur and mentions the, from my point of view, distasteful things he dropped on other websites.

    But people take the bait, so he rolls on.

    Parent

    Who cares? (none / 0) (#30)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:08:02 AM EST
    "Liberals" alone will not re-elect Obama, and that's what you want, right?

    Of COURSE "liberals" are going to support Obama - they have bought into the "you have nowhere else to go" mem.

    Parent

    Sorry, jb - but there is no "OF COURSE" (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:49:19 AM EST
    about liberal support, and from my conversations with others, "you have nowhere else to go" is losing traction - I think that's clearly in evidence here.  Write-ins, third-party, staying home - these are all options that are probably more viable and more appealing now than they were in 2008.

    Parent
    That's why I said (none / 0) (#111)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:20:10 PM EST
    "liberals". Those people who self-identify for polling purposes.  

    But I think it would send a clear message if there weren't so many people willing to pull the lever for him because of the "the other guy/gal sucks worse".  Otherwise, we end up with the same crap and it's definitely not what the rest of us deserve.

    Parent

    Bought into? (none / 0) (#50)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:48:43 AM EST
    We have two parties.  No democratic candidate can win the general running as liberals in the traditional sense.

    So I think they have bought into the truth. Obama is the best chance to avoid a republican president in the next election.  Full stop.  Primarying him only weakens his chances in the general while stroking liberal egos.

    Liberals should focus on congress in 2012 if they are upset.

    Parent

    You just (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:57:15 AM EST
    gave yourself away.

    You referred to liberals as "they".

    Fake.
    Fake.
    Fake.

    Parent

    no, lentinel (none / 0) (#130)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:13:33 PM EST
    not fake, fake, fake

    this really is one angry guy

    Parent

    Obama is the republican (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:13:47 AM EST
    in the next election, just like he was in the last election.  He's to the right of the great god of all things republican, Ronald Reagan.

    Parent
    Which is why (none / 0) (#55)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:55:10 AM EST
    a poll showing liberals' feelings about Obama are useless, unless it showed only 5% of liberals supported him - THAT would be news.

    But again, who cares that 77% of liberals support him?  What does that mean?  Nothing - it's to be expected.  

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 06:55:54 PM EST
    those are really bad numbers. If you're not getting 90% of your base, you're pretty much in trouble.

    Parent
    Everyone is mad for their own reasons. (none / 0) (#36)
    by lilburro on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:15:24 AM EST
    You'll note Obama's reasonableness got him nowhere with anyone.

    Also among those that disapprove on the liberal side:

    13 percent say they disapprove of Obama because he has not been liberal enough - nearly double what it was in May, when the question was last asked, and the first time that number has hit double digits in Obama's presidency.


    Parent
    You're assuming... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:25:25 AM EST
    ...that what a FOR-PROFIT polling company defines as liberal (for the purposes of any particular paid-for-by-a-nonobjective-party survey) is what liberals actually define as liberal. Since liberal, the word, means "Of or pertaining to a free person," you're likely to get twenty different answers from twenty different "liberals."  Hell, East Germany used to call itself the Deutsche Democratic Republic.  That I have as little faith in our own media right now as I did in that DDR moniker, well, not a very good comment on the state of things.  

    Lots of people are unhappy and angry.  Exactly WHY they are, and the actual political and social CAUSES of that distress, these are up for grabs just like any other commodity.  Such is the sad and mercantile arc of American politics.  Money talks, and makes bullsh*t talk louder instead of walk.

    Parent

    You don't (none / 0) (#60)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:58:31 AM EST
    give a sh*t about the results of Obama's dismal handling of this crisis.

    You really would have a happy home on Huffpo.

    Parent

    Why (none / 0) (#19)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 09:52:43 AM EST
    in Gawd's name does Obama have a "liberal base".  He is NOT a liberal.  Yes, I think his "liberal base" is just the 29%-ers...or we should change it to the ABG-ers.  These are people who call themselves liber-al, but are really "Obama-al".

    Actually, I find that people who support Obama implicitly come from backgrounds that I would classify as more likely to dictate Republican viewpoints even when they call themselves liberal.... rich or upper middle class....you know, the ones who classify people as "the <amorphous> poor".;-).

    Parent

    Gee (none / 0) (#54)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:54:42 AM EST
    You must be a happy man, angryblackguy. The data show that liberals approve of Obama. Hooray for the data. I love data. Don't you?

    Everything is coming up roses.

    So put a smile on your face, pack up your troubles and let's all sing.

    Parent

    Strawman (none / 0) (#61)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:59:26 AM EST
    I have said nothing of the sort.  I am neither happy nor smiling.  I don't like the deal at all.  I am not happy with the economy.

    But I think the amount of venom spit at Obama and the dems instead of the people really responsible is unfair and unjustified.

    I think that what is keeping Obama's approval where it is (despite the fact that Bush and Clinton dipped into the 30s at various points) is that people, in their gut, understand that Obama and the dems are dealing with crazy people. They still do not blame Obama for the economy and they may not like various outcomes, but they generally aren't killing Obama for it.

    Now my problem is that the narrative is dictated by the discussion, so if every liberal blog spend the next 3 months bashing Obama instead of bashing republicans, that could all change.

    It's why I would like my beloved liberal blogs to focus on bashing republicans instead of bashing Obama and the dems now please.

    Parent

    Let (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:03:40 AM EST
    Obama do the bashing of the republicans if he but had the cojones to do so.

    The only people he and his coterie condemn are progressives.

    Parent

    So (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by jbindc on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:09:25 AM EST
    You would like your "beloved liberal blogs" to bash Republicans - why?  We know they're crazy and we don't agree with them.  That would make us like Limbaugh listeners:

    "Republicans are crazy!"

    "Ditto".

    Not much discussion there.

    The problem with your position is that it is the Democrats who hold the WH and the Senate and you want them to be given credit for things you agree with, and then when the stuff hits the fan, you want us to say things like, "It's not Obama's fault.  He's helpless in all this and it's the Republicans who are bad."

    You can't have it both ways.

    Parent

    One more time (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:41:48 AM EST
    The Republicans, Speaker Boehner or Majority Leader Cantor DID NOT call for Social Security cuts in the budget deal.  THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CALLED FOR THAT,"  declared US Representative John Conyers in a press conference held by members of the House "Out of Poverty' Caucus on 07/27/11." link


    Parent
    I guess you missed the genesis of (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:43:30 AM EST
    the debt-ceiling-as-hostage thing, so I will re-post the relevant portion of a comment I posted last night:

    David Dayen (emphasis mine):

    Tim Geithner asked for an increase in the debt limit around August of 2009. This is a vote members of Congress don't like to take, but up until that time it had been fairly routine. But the above mentioned Democrats [Evan Bayh, Kent Conrad, Dianne Feinstein, Mark Warner and Joe Lieberman] threatened to hold the debt limit hostage:

    Senators from both parties on Tuesday put new pressure on Speaker Nancy Pelosi to turn the power to trim entitlement benefits over to an independent commission.

    Seven members of the Senate Budget Committee threatened during a Tuesday hearing to withhold their support for critical legislation to raise the debt ceiling if the bill calling for the creation of a bipartisan fiscal reform commission were not attached. (...)

    (...) Congress is under pressure to raise the cap on what the federal government can borrow by mid-December. If the debt ceiling is not raised above its current $12.1 trillion mark by then, the government will exceed its borrowing limits and will be forced to default on the debt. Economists have warned that the inevitable result would be a lowering of the U.S. credit rating, triggering substantial increases in the interest rates the government is already paying.

    But before Tuesday's hearing was over, Sens. Conrad, Gregg, Evan Bayh (D-Ind.), Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), Mark Warner (D-Va.), Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.), George Voinovich (R-Ohio) and Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) publicly vowed to vote against raising the debt ceiling if a budget reform commission bill doesn't come along with it.

    Kent Conrad went so far as to say, "You rarely do have the leverage to make a fundamental change."

    For the first time, perhaps in history, members of Congress tied spending cuts to raising the debt limit. This was the blueprint off of which John Boehner and the Republicans worked. The panel that Conrad wanted, along with Judd Gregg, would have had a mandate to reduce the deficit through spending caps, tax reform and entitlements, and would have submitted recommendations for an up-or-down vote without amendments or the possibility of the filibuster. That's EXACTLY what's in the bill being voted on today.

    The Democrats pushing this ultimately backed down. Eventually, President Obama signed a clean $1.8 trillion debt limit increase in February 2010. But that obscures the issue. First, something did get attached to the debt limit bill - statutory paygo, requiring that all new spending be paid for with taxes or cuts. Second, because of the pressure that Conrad and the Democrats put on leadership, they got a guaranteed vote prior to the debt limit increase on their deficit commission. It would have passed if Republicans who previously supported the idea didn't bail at the last minute. At this point, President Obama, who had pivoted onto deficit reduction at the end of 2009, said he would by executive order put together the deficit commission. And so the original Catfood Commission was born. They've been talking about deficits in Washington, in the middle of a jobs crisis, ever since.

    And this - from my response to Donald:

    It's important to know and understand what the opposition is doing, where it wants to go and what the endgame is, and I think that's true whether you're talking about the GOP or about those within the party; I had hoped to never have to be able to say that representatives of my own party, including the Democratic president, put the safety net on the table, but there it is.  

    Undeniably, painfully there.  From now on, the Democratic argument to protect beneficiaries of these programs will be..."but it was Democrats who wanted to cut them..."

    And there's no comeback to that.  It's the kind of statement that makes mouths slap shut because there's no argument against it.

    No question Republicans are crazy, but you don't fight the crazy by trying to be more like the crazy, or enabling it from your side, or trying to go them one better; in my unprofessional opinion, that's crazy.

    And also in my unprofessional opinion, after all this totally unnecessary hulabaloo, after scaring the crap out of seniors, after hammering the this-is-what-we-have-to-do-to-grow-the-economy - I do not believe Obama will be able to keep deflecting the blame for the continued decline of the economy.


    Parent

    Still flogging the same horse as yesterday (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:48:23 AM EST
    What a crashing bore.

    Parent
    shoephone (none / 0) (#147)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 02:21:10 PM EST
    Almost as boring as the one note song that would be playing her otherwise?

    Parent
    Keeping It Real (none / 0) (#62)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:03:15 AM EST
    "The public is mostly in favor of raising taxes on the rich -- though I suspect its support is pretty soft -- but on the bigger issues they mostly aren't on our side. They think deficits are bad, they don't trust Keynesian economics, they don't want a higher IRS bill (who does, after all?), and they believe the federal government is spending too much on stuff they don't really understand. Conservatives have just flat out won this debate in recent decades, and until that changes we're not going to be able to make much progress," - Kevin Drum.

    Parent
    "Keeping It Real" ... (none / 0) (#178)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 04:47:18 PM EST
    ... by citing Drum.

    Good one.

    Parent

    Marcy Wheeler's prediction of (none / 0) (#22)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:00:02 AM EST
    who will be named to the CF II Commission:

    Assuming for the sake of argument that the members who are still in Congress would be part of SuperCongress, that would make for a stalemate-though Republican opposition focused on Obama's healthcare reform, not on the package of entitlement cuts and tax breaks for the rich that the commission recommended.

    Both Judd Gregg and John Spratt are gone. Rather than replace Judd Gregg, the former Ranking Member of the Budget Committee with his functional equivalent, Jeff Sessions, Mitch McConnell will likely put Saxby Chambliss on SuperCongress, as Chambliss has been involved in the Gang of Six discussing a deficit reduction plan. John Spratt's functional equivalent would be Chris Van Hollen, a not horrible addition for liberals. (Update: Or maybe he's just like Durbin, a so-called liberal who will support this crap.)

    But it's not safe to assume Harry Reid will just pick the Senators who served on the Catfood Commission for SuperCongress. After Max Baucus voted no on the Catfood Commission, saying, "we cannot cut the deficit at the expense of veterans, seniors, ranchers, farmers and hard-working families," he was replaced on the Gang of Six. Joe Biden and Harry Reid replaced him with Mark Warner, a man worth more than $200 million who has spent much of the tenure of the Gang of Six insisting that working Americans with whom he shares little in common won't mind so much if they have to work another two years before they can retire.

    In other words, one change we've already seen happen between the Catfood Commission and the Gang of Six is the replacement of Max Baucus, who proved unwilling to push through the $4 trillion deficit plan Obama has been chasing, with Mark Warner, who is all too willing to champion entitlement cuts for poor people.

    I think, having failed to get an "in-house" commission back in 2009, and having failed to get a majority vote out of Obama's commission, I don't think anyone should think for a minute that there will be any significant ideological tension on this new commission that would prevent it from being "successful" in voting out cuts for Congress to vote on.  

    The fix is in.


    Two Cat Food Ones (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:23:49 AM EST
    that are unlikely to be on Cat Food Two, in keeping with the dumping of Max Baucus, would be Democratic House members Jan Schakowsky and Xavier Becerra.  Both registered as "no' and , worse, Jan Schakowsky presented her own budget plan that included raising the cap on social security.

    Parent
    On Senate side (none / 0) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:55:47 AM EST
    The Senate side is IMO the easiest to predict. The Gang of Six.

    For the Senate Dems: Durbin, Conrad and Warner
    For the Senate Republicans: Saxby Chambliss and  Tom  Coburn.

    Van Hollen IIRC was pushing passing the debt ceiling POS legislation hard so he is possible.  

    For the House: Hoyer and Jim Cooper. Maybe Van Hollen or Clyburn.

    I agree.

    The fix is in.


    Parent
    All it takes is one Dem to vote with the Repubs -- (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by jawbone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:07:31 PM EST
    Yesterday Obama was reported to have asked Reid to name Deficit Hawks to the Committee of the Twelve Caesars, aka Politburo.

    Takes only one Dem to get the recommendations passed.

    We are in a world of hurt.

    Parent

    Do you have a link that describes (none / 0) (#184)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 05:59:01 PM EST
    how this works - the only one Dem part and link to report Obama asked Reid to name deficit hawks?

    Tried to google but had no success. Thanks.

    Parent

    I will be in Pittsburgh (none / 0) (#26)
    by observed on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:05:32 AM EST
    tomorrow, with the evening free. Any suggestions for things to do? Restaurants? I am not sure where my hotel is, but probably near CMU. Interview noon Thursday.


    If I had one night in Pitt (none / 0) (#46)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:36:52 AM EST
    I would head up the Duquesne Incline and have dinner on Mt. Washington.  There are a number of restaurants there, I can't remember them all and I only ever ate at one, but the food and view were both phenomenal, and I'm pretty sure all those restaurants are nice.  You can take the bus to station square and ride up the incline, or take a cab to the top.  There may be buses that go up there but not directly from CMU.  I'm pretty sure you can take one straight to station square though.

    You won't regret it.

    Parent

    theater (none / 0) (#83)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:43:23 AM EST
    Carnegie Mellon is sure to have a summer theater program going.  As one of the best theater schools in the nation, they will probably have an affordable ticket for one of their summer shows.

    Parent
    Do the Incline (none / 0) (#101)
    by Madeline on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:05:24 PM EST
    There are restaurants up that overlook the city.  It's very pleasant and beautiful view of a beautiful city.  Go Steelers!

    Parent
    A town I greatly enjoyed (none / 0) (#87)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:46:55 AM EST
    if unexpectedly, not that many years ago, on a visit of only a few days.

    Yes, do the Duquesne Incline -- but also enjoy viewing that bluff from across the river, and then walk the area around and among rivers or perhaps tributaries?  Pittsburgh's resurgence was recent when I was there, and it was great to see a great river city bringing its community center back where it belongs (with the siting of the stadium and other excellent efforts in good urban planning).

    Parent

    one other piece of advice (none / 0) (#107)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:13:15 PM EST
    that you probably won't need.

    If you don't have a car, be careful staying out too late.  Buses only run so long, and cabs can be unreliable, especially in the later hours.  I have taken more than a few drunken stumbles home late, and it's far better to do with company than traveling alone :)

    Also, if you're looking for somewhere to hang out during the day, in the back of CMU's campus is a pretty great park, Schenley.  With Phipps conservatory, which is a stunning building, and pretty nice inside too.

    Parent

    Wow, sounds exactly (none / 0) (#174)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 04:11:32 PM EST
    like Boston!

    Parent
    worse actually (none / 0) (#182)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 05:21:13 PM EST
    in Boston - South Station is fairly reliable if you're in the area.  And a lot of places to go out are "in the area".

    Downtown Pittsburgh near the transit hubs is a ghost town at night and on weekends.  Or at least it was 5-10 years ago.

    Parent

    thanks for the tips. (none / 0) (#116)
    by observed on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:27:45 PM EST
    I will probably do the Incline.


    Parent
    Oh, if you have time (none / 0) (#145)
    by Madeline on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 02:16:21 PM EST
    go to Primanti's restaurant in the Strip District, and have the famous Primanti Almost Famous Sandwich....in fact just go to the Strip District and party.

    Parent
    Wow, 6 hardcore TeaParty republicans (none / 0) (#28)
    by Buckeye on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:07:21 AM EST
    and the dems will have several blue dogs.  If the above is correct, then we know the results the commission will come up with.

    Hopefully (none / 0) (#33)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:10:14 AM EST
    their "recommendation" won't pass.  The trigger is better.

    Parent
    This will be interesting (none / 0) (#40)
    by Buckeye on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:22:33 AM EST
    A panel with Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor, John Kyl, etc. with a Gang of 6 dem (Durbin), quintessential blue dog (Conrad), and Baucus (guy who f'ed up the healthcare bill) will come out with recommendations way to the right.  Then, it has to pass the Tea Party house (which will think it is not conservative enough), then pass a democratic senate with filibuster powers, then not be vetoed by Obama (who only cares about his reelection).  God help us.

    Parent
    No one has been selected, that I am (none / 0) (#44)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:27:09 AM EST
    aware of - the names BTD cited in his post are his predictions.

    I don't think Baucus makes it - he rejected the original Commission's recommendations, and can't be relied on to accept whatever ones this new one comes up with.

    Parent

    I know, I am just saying that if BTD is right (none / 0) (#48)
    by Buckeye on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:40:07 AM EST
    we know what the commission's recommendations will be.

    Parent
    If Warner the DINO is there instead of Baucus (none / 0) (#93)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:51:47 AM EST
    we will still get the same cr*ppy recommendations. Isn't it just peachy that a total of 7  corporate hacks will be deciding how to ruin our spiraling economy even further?

    Parent
    IMO Baucus will be replaced with Warner (none / 0) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:59:05 AM EST
    Durbin, Conrad and Warner guarantees that all Dem Senate members will vote for draconian cuts to the safety net programs which aligns perfectly with Obama's agenda.

    Parent
    While it's not a classic conflict of interest (none / 0) (#102)
    by shoephone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:07:04 PM EST
    There's a really smelly unseemliness to the fact that those already in the Senate and House leadership are going to be on this super-commitee. Durbin and Hoyer, in particular.

    Parent
    Politburos usually follow the leader's desires --- (none / 0) (#155)
    by jawbone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:09:04 PM EST
    Stacked Deck (none / 0) (#29)
    by cal1942 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:07:59 AM EST
    Democrats = House - Clyburn, Van Hollen, Hoyer; Senate - Baucus, Conrad, Durbin.

    Cover for incumbents in both parties.  Kinda defeats the idea of Democracy.

    Remember (none / 0) (#32)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:09:28 AM EST
    today is ignore ABG day...

    who? (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by observed on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:17:03 AM EST
    That is now everyday for me. (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Buckeye on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:23:29 AM EST
    I have come to the opinion he is just here to champion Obama and get a rise out of people.  That is it.

    Parent
    Also, as Gilbert and (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by observed on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:32:06 AM EST
    Sullivan said, things are seldom what they seem. That sn is like a Henry Clay mackerel, if you know what I mean.


    Parent
    did it really (none / 0) (#91)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:49:13 AM EST
    take you two years to figure that out?

    Parent
    I have not realized he posted that long (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Buckeye on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:23:23 PM EST
    (just a month or two).  I post on TL sporadically.

    Parent
    I'm pretty sure (none / 0) (#114)
    by CST on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:25:19 PM EST
    he's new here.

    Parent
    Why Bush was better than Obama (none / 0) (#35)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:13:33 AM EST
    and Obama Stabs the Back of the Hospital Lobby

    Although people have been complaining about Obama stabbing the back of his "base", what I find really strange is his habit of stabbing the back of his real base ie his corporate backers.  The new debt deal includes triggered Medicare cuts to providers which the hospital lobby would hate.  But the hospital lobby was what Obama was trying to appease with his rejection of the "public option".

    Also there were mentions of him willing to dump the health insurance mandate which the health insurance lobby would've hated.

    Compare this with the Congress under Bush who never cut Medicare and expanded Medicare with his corporate friendly drug prescription plan.  Bush is looking better and better by the day.

    Bush is (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:49:33 AM EST
    a war criminal.

    I don't think I should have to remind you of that.

    He is directly responsible for the needless deaths of over 100,000 Iraqi civilians. That is a conservative estimate.

    And how many Americans killed.
    How many American families destroyed.

    So Bush looks better to you - than what?

    While it is true that Obama has continued many if not most of Bush's more obnoxious policies - and in some cases made them even worse - Bush was one demented fellow and his legacy has been the utter destruction of the American way of life as we once knew it. Bush may not have gotten around to cutting Medicare, but he only had two terms. Obama represents his third.

    If you want to say that Obama is even worse than Bush, I could consider that. But Bush is an out and out horror and deserves nothing but our contempt.

    Parent

    "Obama is worse than Bush"="Bush is (none / 0) (#69)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:10:18 AM EST
    better than Obama".

    For some reason, you would consider "Obama is even worse than Bush" but you aren't willing to consider "Bush is even better than Obama" even though they mean the same thing.

    As for wars, yes wars may be bad.  But pols are pols (someone mentioned that to me once) and do what they do.  Considering Obama's current support for his wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and his support for the his new war in Libya, why would anyone think Obama, if he'd been president, would've acted differently?  Pols are pols after all.

    In any case, one could make an argument (for the sake of the US economy) we need more wars right now and need to double the war budget.  As Krugman pointed out, the Depression only started ending when WWII started.  Since no one in power is willing to support more domestic spending starting some more wars could help the US economy due to the increase in government spending.  Maybe someone should call up Al-Qaeda and have them launch a few terrorist attacks in the US so that we can pump some more money into fighting the terrorists and starting a few new wars. You might find such an argument horrible, but, as Paul Krugman has said, economics is not a morality play.

    Parent

    What (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by lentinel on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 12:04:29 PM EST
    you said was something like "Bush is looking better and better".

    He isn't.

    He will always look like the twisted freak that he is.

    Obama, having taken over the wheel since Bush could not run again, may drive us further down the path to perdition. Our situation as citizens may get worse as this debacle continues.

    But Bush will never look better.

    Under no circumstances do we need more wars.
    Our war spending (c. 5 -6 billion a week) is in large measure what has rendered us bankrupt.

    Obviously, if Obama feels his reelection threatened, he will fabricate a real or imagined attack upon us by someone or other.
    But that could boomerang and we'll wind up with a McCain or some ex-General.

    But I will also admit that I could say that Obama is even worse than Bush, but I never could say that Bush was better than anything. If you find that puzzling, that's OK. But that's the way I feel.


    Parent

    Prurient Satirical Fiction from Dadler (none / 0) (#57)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 10:56:27 AM EST
    Enjoyed it... (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 11:22:30 AM EST
    caught your first link to the new fiction.

    Is there such a thing as pen*s literacy envy?  My little buddy never learned to read:)

    Parent

    TY, my man (none / 0) (#193)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 06:59:55 PM EST
    BTW, about my sister's beau doing the Clarence Clemons tribute on the BET Awards a few weeks back.  It turns out they took his bit off the website because, simply, as he told me last week, "I'm not famous."  

    F the BET Producers.  You don't who the Big Man's tribute because the anonymous sax player who played it, whose face you never even tried to show, isn't famous.

    A-holes.  

    And so it goes.

    Peace, my man.

    Parent

    That should read (none / 0) (#196)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 07:08:48 PM EST
    "You don't SHOW the Big Man's tribute because..."

    Blah.

    Parent

    aha (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 01:20:55 PM EST
    my question about the provenance of this previously posted link now apparently answered

    Parent
    you got me, my TL friend (none / 0) (#189)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 06:50:36 PM EST
    what can I say, you had to most disgusted reaction so far.  but i actually tweaked it a little after your read, which was the first.  

    Sometimes you swing and miss, which I, um, think I did with you on this one.  There's always next time.

    But thanks for the read and reaction, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time, even if you were utterly revolted. LOL.  

    Peace out.

    Parent

    Stock markets are down - crashing, one word used (none / 0) (#172)
    by jawbone on Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:44:52 PM EST
    Maybe those who understand the economy realize the Obama abomination bill will probably end up causing an additional loss of 1,822,000 jobs in 2012. Yes, 1.8 Million, give or take a few ten's of thousands new unemployed.

    EPI econ projections are based on cuts listed in the bill plus no extension of the payroll tax holiday and no unemployment insurance extension. So big bucks come out of the economy, jobs go bye-bye. (Tabel at bottom of screen page.)

    JP Morgan analysts have the same loss to GDP as EPI of minus 1.5% lower that previous projections for 2012. The larger cuts come in 2013, even more from 2014 onward.

    And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard
    It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall.