Tuesday Night Open Thread

President Obama's Chicago campaign headquarters were the site of a protest today over deportations and Secure Communities:

Latino activists held a protest outside President Barack Obama's 2012 campaign headquarters on Tuesday to ask him to end a criminal deportation program they say is snaring large number of illegal immigrants who have not committed crimes. The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, or ICE, established the Secure Communities program in partnership with local law enforcement agencies as well as the FBI to deport unauthorized immigrants with criminal convictions.

Denver police have agreed to a $200,000. settlement of a class action lawsuit brought by arrested protestors and others at the 2008 Democratic National Convention and the ACLU. A federal judge ruled a few months ago that the mass arrests were unconstitutional:

“This case identified serious flaws in Denver’s training and policies on crowd control and policing demonstrations,” said Mark Silverstein, ACLU Legal Director. “The settlement, and the resulting improvements to Denver’s crowd-control manual, underscores an important lesson for Denver police: They must have individualized facts showing that each separate person they arrest was violating the law. Police violate the Constitution when they simply arrest everyone who happens to be in the area.”

The agreement must be approved by the Judge and the Denver City Council.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Can We Afford Continuing The Iraq Debacle? | Wednesday Morning Open Thread >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    Professor Borat's contract is (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by observed on Tue Aug 16, 2011 at 09:41:10 PM EST
    at the provost's office at the moment. I expect I'll see what the offer is tomorrow or Thursday at the latest, and probably be flying out next Wednesday or Thursday.

    Really exciting! Looking forward to your stories (5.00 / 0) (#11)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 08:20:35 AM EST
    of life in K-stan. Best of luck in your travels and getting settled.

    what would you be teaching? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 16, 2011 at 11:03:37 PM EST
    forgive me if you've answered this previously.

    Josh has another surgery behind him now (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 16, 2011 at 10:45:03 PM EST

    How's he doing? (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 12:07:31 AM EST
    And you?

    Sending positive healing thoughts to you both.


    He's doing well today, walking around a (none / 0) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:00:28 AM EST
    little. He is changing in dealing with this, he has the anxiety issue now but he is also challenging himself too in more mature ways.  Usually when they put his I.V. in place that he will rely, they wait until they have him under for surgery.  The older kids get it done before they go in and he asked them to do it beforehand this time.

    What a big boy! (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by smott on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:22:48 AM EST
    Sending best wishes for fast healing.....

    Glad to hear that he is doing well (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:49:12 AM EST
    and that he has this one behind him. Hope that he heals quickly.

    Ohhhh (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:53:07 AM EST
    He should not have to be a "big boy" already. It makes me so sad to hear of kids who have to "grow up early" for any reason. But I'm glad he's doing it for his sake.

    He is an inspiration.  As are you....

    I'm sure you both would trade "inspirational" for "normal" in a heart beat.  Wish you the best of care and the best of wellness.


    We keep an open dialogue (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:55:56 AM EST
    about dealing with the different experiences.  We acknowledge that what happens is not considered normal, and is even traumatic in ways.  There is also a growing that goes along with experiences, and we talk about that too whenever anyone needs to.  It is hard sometimes because our lives are so different than most others out there, it can feel lonely...but the whole family is on this road in a way and we are on it together.  Because of Joshua, I have to say that I am able to better embrace what is really important for all people.  He is vulnerable.  Someone I love more than anything else in the world is vulnerable in this society that some wish was governed by pure capitalism...dog eat dog guiding all priorities and decisions.  I would have spent my life very blind without the gift of Joshua.  I am a much better human being because of him.

    Good to see that he is asserting (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Towanda on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 10:58:55 AM EST
    control in this.  I watched (read: taught, modeled, etc.:-) my daughter do so at that age, and the things that she did didn't really matter -- where to do this, when to do that, etc.

    What mattered was that she asserted herself and started taking charge of her own health and especially her treatments.  A long time later, a lot of learning later -- and a lot of getting her to get past the medical profession's tendency to inculcate passivity -- she is far healthier today than ever I thought that we would see.  Off meds, on a nutritional regimen, exercising, etc.!


    Also: In dealing with her dad's cancer (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Towanda on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:04:03 AM EST
    and as his caregiver now, that assertiveness that she learned for herself sure is paying off, too.  

    As I'll be next, I'm heartened to see that she will raise h*ll if I have to cope with some of the screwups that are happening to her dad these days from health care, health insurance companies, etc.

    I know that you have dealt with all of the above, too, MT.  When we already need every moment to be with our family members who are suffering and need us, it's so aggravating that the people who are supposed to help actually take time away from us to fix their screwups -- and we pay them for their time to fix their messes AND to make their messes.


    Amazing... (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:17:27 AM EST
    how the tikes bounce back like rubber bands, ain't it?

    My niece had her rods extended on the 5th, walking around the 6th, on the swing set on the 7th...amazing.  She is more bothered by taking the bandage off than the surgery it seems.

    Spoil Lil' Man Josh rotten, not that I need to tell you:)


    It is stunning how after awhile (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:48:38 AM EST
    They take many things they have become accustomed to in stride.  I think the bandages are more of bother to Josh too after about 48 hours than anything else is.  They use those foam bandages now that have a silver film on them to discourage infection and they are supposed to release from the skin on their own in their own time.  I assume the skin cells turning over has something to do with it too.  When they start to loosen and parts are flapping a little, I think that causes him more consternation than anything else he is experiencing :)

    Healing wishes to all. I hope this is it (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 08:23:50 AM EST
    for a while anyway.

    Thank you ruffian (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:00:44 AM EST
    Hoping all is going well (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 02:59:57 AM EST
    Josh and his support team

    It is pretty hard (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:01:26 AM EST
    to be in poor spirits in San Antonio.

    We will need to halo him soon though (none / 0) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:11:33 AM EST
    Even though his growth plates are still a little too far apart for the doctors taste.  They are beginning to worry a lot about his neck.  Due to irregularity in growing his neck partially fused in a compensatory curve to offset his ribcage curve.  We knew they would have to unfuse it a little when he went through halo traction, then it would be fused straight.  Until he goes through the halo process though we have sort of allowed it to do what it will do but it is becoming very much a concern now.  So the next time we go to San Antonio it will be for the full halo process and procedures.  It will be a long process,probably four months, but a relief too.  It feels like hurry up and worry right now.

    My dear tracy, (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Zorba on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:27:13 AM EST
    Despite all the difficulties, you will be able to handle all this, and so will Josh, because you are a strong woman, and he's a strong boy.  May all the positive forces in the Universe be with you all, to give you strength, to give Josh healing, and all good things.

    Josh Is very Lucky to have parents (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by samsguy18 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:42:48 AM EST
    Who care so much. It takes a lot of love and courage to watch your child go through so much.
    The example you set gives them courage and helps them feel safe and secure. Hang in there !

    Obama on his negotiation skills (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:07:31 AM EST
    Now I usually don't read Maureen Dowd because her column is usually full of fluff, but I linked to this one and caught this little gem:

    In Cannon Falls, Minn., the president compared negotiating with House Republicans to negotiating with his wife.

    "In my house," Obama noted, "if I said, `You know, Michelle, honey, we got to cut back, so we're going to have you stop shopping completely. You can't buy shoes; you can't buy dresses; but I'm keeping my golf clubs.' You know, that wouldn't go over so well."

    In Decorah, he said: "Everybody cannot get 100 percent of what they want. Now, for those of you who are married, there is an analogy here. I basically let Michelle have 90 percent of what she wants. But, at a certain point, I have to draw the line and say, `Give me my little 10 percent.' "

    Maybe Michelle should be the one negotiating with the Republicans.

    Oh dear.

    If he really (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:16:11 AM EST
    said that about Michelle, she should be angry. That's is a condescending statement if ever I saw one. Hey guys, got a money problem? Tell the "little woman" to stop shopping so much.

    I guess all he thinks Michelle does is shop????


    That's what I thought (none / 0) (#51)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:35:58 AM EST
    I also thought that if Michelle was negotiating with the Republicans, she would have eaten them for lunch.

    I know everyone's thrilled to know that (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:15:11 AM EST
    Obama's going to give a speech on jobs next month...

    The AP gives us a preview:

    The president's plan is likely to contain tax cuts, jobs-boosting infrastructure ideas and steps that would specifically help the long-term unemployed. The official emphasized that all of Obama's proposals would be fresh ones, not a rehash of plans he has pitched for many weeks and still supports, including his "infrastructure bank" idea to finance construction jobs.

    On a significant and related front, Obama will also present a specific plan to cut the suffocating long-term national debt and to pay for the cost of his new short-term economic ideas.

    His debt proposal will be bigger than the $1.5 trillion package that a new "supercommittee" of Congress must come up with by late November.

    The president will then spend his fall publicly pressing Congress to take action as the economic debate roars into its next phase. Both the economic ideas and the plan to pay for them will be part of Obama's speech, although the address will focus mainly on the jobs components.

    And lest you're getting that deja vu/Groundhog Day feeling, take note that we're going to get "fresh" ideas! A bigger debt proposal!  Yay!

    Why do I get the feeling that we're about to go full-kabuki here?  Listening and reading some of what he's been saying on his not-a-campaign-tour, I could get hammered if I took a drink every time he said "Congress," which leads me to believe that "publicly pressing Congress" is Obama-speak for "I'm not actually going to DO anything, but IT'S NOT MY FAULT!"  He's even been laying the groundwork for casting some of the blame on us: WE have to tell Congress what to do - as if the letters and faxes and e-mails and phone calls that have been pouring into these congressional offices were just "thinking of you" missives, right?  

    Seriously, I don't know if I have the stomach for the next 15 months of this.

    Come one. Come all (none / 0) (#50)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:34:39 AM EST
    Join the "Speech of the Month Club" where Obama will sell his "take away from the poor and middle class to give to the uber-rich program." Oh and btw, jobs will magically appear after Congress completes cutting domestic and safety net programs to the bone and reduces taxes for corporations and the top 1 - 2%.  

    Morning smile... (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by desertswine on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:57:09 AM EST
    Recently someone, I forgot who, sorry, posted a picture about the birth of a rare sand cat. Here's something in a similar veighn (I just invented that word).

    3 rare Asian Fishing Cats born in Ohio Zoo.

    The cat attracts fish by lightly tapping the water's surface with its paw, mimicking insect movements. Then, it dives into the water to catch the fish. It can also use its partially webbed paws to scoop fish, frogs, and other prey out of the water or swim underwater to prey on ducks and other aquatic birds. It is powerful enough to take large prey, such as calves and dogs."

    Webbed feet! amazing.

    I posted the pictures of the sand cat (none / 0) (#72)
    by MO Blue on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 06:34:21 PM EST
    Those kittens are adorable. Love their coloring and markings. Who would have ever thought there were "Fishing Cats." Definitely not me. Thank you for sharing them.

    Very cool (none / 0) (#73)
    by Zorba on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 06:45:11 PM EST
    I have sent the link along to my cat-loving friends.

    $200K, 3 Years After the Fact (none / 0) (#2)
    by The Maven on Tue Aug 16, 2011 at 10:04:37 PM EST
    amounts to even less of a slap on the wrist than the settlements paid by the TBTF banks and financial institutions for the frauds they committed in contributing to the economic meltdown.  And, in a similar manner, I doubt that such a triflingly small payment will have even a minimal effect on the department's behavior in the future.  The sum is certainly but a small fraction of what the department paid in overtime just to deal with these arrests.  This basically says to the police, "Go ahead and engage in mass 'preventive' arrests; it won't really cost you."

    Perhaps the judge will reject the settlement on the grounds that it's grossly inadequate, but instances like that are very rare, indeed.  A minor moral victory here, but hardly a deterrent against future abuses.

    this seems to be a common problem (none / 0) (#3)
    by cpinva on Tue Aug 16, 2011 at 10:30:36 PM EST
    with police forces throughout the country. what are these people doing with guns, badges and licenses?

    Doing the job... (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 08:10:22 AM EST
    they were hired to do?  Bust heads and bust b*lls.

    They ain't peace officers man, everywhere is war.  


    Protesting deportations (none / 0) (#8)
    by LatinDem on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 06:51:07 AM EST
    Latino activists held a protest outside President Barack Obama's 2012 campaign headquarters on Tuesday to ask him to end a criminal deportation program they say is snaring large number of illegal immigrants who have not committed crimes.

    This kind of action makes liberals look ridiculous and empowers right wing politicians. Asking the government to not deport those who have come here or stay here illegally is unfair to immigrants who followed the rules and waited their turn to enter the country legally, as well as those still waiting. The more we demand exceptions to the rules, the more mileage we give Republicans who paint us as naïve bleeding heart liberals.

    By being compassionate to people who come here illegally, while not demanding socioeconomic change in their countries of origin, we function as tools to the very rich and help prop up the obscene income disparities that benefit the rich over those living in abject poverty. Worse, we undermine our own working class by flooding the market with millions of people who are willing to work for a pittance and not complain about employer workplace violations.

    It's a huge mistake by progressives when we support people who enter and stay in this country illegally just because we're compassionate people. A better strategy would be to prevent employment of undocumented workers here, while preventing the wealthy elite from benefiting from the huge income disparities in other countries.

    Puck Folitics... (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 08:23:29 AM EST
    I couldn't care less if doing the right thing, the humane thing, hurts Democrats...ya don't slap chains on and cage people for crossing man-made imaginary lines.

    To me, it is inherently unfair and cruel to allow money capitol to fly around the world freely, while actual flesh and blood people, human capitol, are chained and caged for doing same. Classic rigged markets.


    Puck Folitics (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:02:30 AM EST
    I need that T-shirt!

    Yes you do (none / 0) (#15)
    by nyjets on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 08:35:14 AM EST
    It is not humane for American citizens to allow foreigner to come to this country, steal jobs, depress wages, and destroy the economy. THe government has to protect its own citizens and that means deporting 'undocumented' immigrants.

    Please... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:16:07 AM EST
    if the government wanted to protect its citizens and improve the economy it would send the SWAT team to the banks and the exchanges, not some undocumented slob's house.

    Employers set wages much more so than employees.  

    Jobs can't be stolen like a gold watch, they are offered and accepted, ending in firing or resignation...no stealing no where unless you're talking about scabs crossing picket lines, that ya could consider job theft.


    That is not true (none / 0) (#25)
    by nyjets on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 09:30:29 AM EST
    The number of employees set wages. If there are to many people looking for jobs, wages go down. Simple supply and demand.
    Furthermore, jobs can be stolen. 'Undocumented' immigrants come to this country, take a job that belongs to an American citizen resulting in one less jobs for an American citizen.

    And a 'scab' that refuses to bow down to an edict of the labor union is not stealing jobs.


    What jobs are they stealing? (none / 0) (#62)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 12:07:38 PM EST
    Which wages are they depressing?

    Hmmm, I always thought it was Wall St and the big banks that destroyed the economy . . .


    Not to Mention... (none / 0) (#29)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 10:02:12 AM EST
    ... that pesky Constitution that is suppose to give everyone in the US basic rights.

    But from a political view, we should catering to the largest growing segment of the population, not mimicking our rivals hatred, and certainly not spewing their lame brain talking points as fact.

    Funny how we survived two hundred of years of open boarders, yet the past 20 years that same policy is now going to be our death we are told.

    Don't believe the republican campaign hype.


    Sadly... (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 10:31:37 AM EST
    "don't tread on me, tread on them!" seems to be a campaign winner 'round here...basic human decency just doesn't sell as well kicking the dog, why I can't tell ya, pretty sick stuff if ya ask me.

    It Wouldn't Be so Bad... (none / 0) (#32)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 10:51:31 AM EST
    ... if it was evenly distributed.  But it's always followed by an almost fetish like defense of the people who have all the influence and power.

    In the office we have a saying... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 10:57:31 AM EST
    "kiss up, step down"...maybe thats whats going on.  The house slave mentality, kissing the slavemaster's arse while spitting on the field slaves.

    Things have changed (none / 0) (#38)
    by nyjets on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:06:04 AM EST
    Simple put, the United States used to be a growing country with an economy to match. That is no longer true. We have hit carry capicity for the country and can take no additional people. Hence why we do need to seal the border.

    Also, I have always felt that the consitution only applies to American citizens only, not 'undocumented' immigrants.


    you have always "felt" wrong then (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by CST on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:20:17 AM EST
    since it has routinely been used for that purpose.

    Also, one question I would really like to ask, is how on earth does anyone think it's possible to "seal" the border.  I mean really.  Logistically it's impossible, but even if it were possible, then what?  Round up every mexican and south american in sight and check their papers?  The fact of the matter is we have millions of people here who are unaccounted for.  Closing your eyes and wishing them away, or coming after them with the full force of the law will essentially amount to the same result - no change.

    It's a logistical nightmare.  And until someone on the right steps up and acknowledges that, I'm going to continue to laugh at anyone who insists the solution to this problem is to "seal the border".  Yea, let me get out my giant ball of ductape and I'll fix that right up.  Where is the money for all of that going to come from?  Talk about wastefull spending.  And at the end of the day, for what?  There are still going to be undocumented immigrants here.

    At least other infrastructure spending actually improves something.


    That I know (none / 0) (#55)
    by nyjets on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:51:20 AM EST
    I know that people feel that the consitution applies to 'undocumented' immigrants. I should have been clearer in the fact that I have always disagreed with the opinion.

    You are correct, actually sealing the border is immpossible. People will always slip true. However, you can make it so that it is very hard for people to do so. Right now border crossing is decreasing in part because of enforcement (and also the economy as well).

    As far as the 'undocumented' who live here, we located them at work. If they are undocumented they get deported. You then punish employers who hire undocumented workers. If undocumented can not get jobs, they will eventually leave.


    Yawn... (none / 0) (#56)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:53:58 AM EST
    Tired arguments.  

    I assume you are the one to determine this 'carry capacity'.  Is there a formula or some other metric so I figure out exactly when immigration went from a building block to the GD devil.

    How exactly do you determine if someone qualifies for you definition of Constitutional rights w/o actually breaking those rights ?  Profiling, magic, or are those rights not important enough to worry about when you break them in order to determine if I deserve them ?

    Do you really believe rights in the country are not equally applied to every person ?  Where have I heard this arguement before ?


    Question (none / 0) (#60)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 12:04:55 PM EST
    So do you believe that if people are here without going through the proper channels, we should just shrug our shoulders and say "Oh, well" ?  Realizing that we can't and shouldn't necessarily deport 12 million people, should we then adopt a policy where we look the other way when people come here without the proper documentation and through the proper channels?  Should we not go after the employers?

    No Problem What-so-Ever (none / 0) (#65)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 12:57:06 PM EST
    And my option isn't to shrug my shoulders and say something stupid, I would and do welcome them, just another piece of the America's puzzle.

    I can't realize something that I don't think exists.  You assume for me in that there is some problem.  No problem exists, or rather it's a made up problem by the right wing hack machine to scare up votes.

    I don't know a single person that is/would be competing with a third world migrant worker for a job.  To me, living in the land of opportunity almost guarantees a level of sophistication that should guarantee many pay grades above migrant labor.

    If I get call saying they gave the job I interviewed for to another person, my gut reaction isn't to blame them, it's to wonder why I wasn't good enough.  And whether they are Irish, Italian, or Mexican is of no consequence to me, I need to improve, not run some pseudo-Hearst campaign to get the other person deported.


    So (none / 0) (#67)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 01:07:45 PM EST
    It's your contention that no problem exists anywhere in our system - social services, economy, environment, schools, etc. -  because of 12 million people who are here without going through the proper channels?

    That seems like an extremely naive answer.


    Never Said That (none / 0) (#68)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 02:13:32 PM EST
    What I am saying is why not have the same open door policy we used to take pride in, then the 12 M would be just be.  No one says those Germans are draining our economy or that Italians are stealing our jobs, they are just part of it.

    Plus they are already here, the only way to identify is paperwork, but they are working and living here.  We can spending resources trying to filter them out, but like most of these ventures, it's more for show, no meaningful differences.  My day, your day, almost everyone's day is the same whether ICE exists or doesn't.

    The arguement is that they are taking our jobs, even if I agree, why not make them citizens, then wouldn't all the 'draining on the economy' shtick be in vain if they are contributing, something they can't do now.

    Of course there are problems, but my contention was that particular group in not the problem, no more so than any other segment.


    Maybe because (none / 0) (#70)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 03:05:54 PM EST
    We had an "open door policy" in 1940 when the population of the US was 132 million.  In 1960, it was 179 million.  In 1980, it was 226 million.  In 2000, it was 281 millon.  In 2010, it was 308 million.  The size and area of the country has not changed.  Do you see an issue with just having an "open door policy" continue like we used to?

    So You are Saying Density... (none / 0) (#71)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 04:03:55 PM EST
    ... is the driver to denying citizenship ?

        * North America - 32 people per square mile
        * South America - 73 people per square mile
        * Europe - 134 people per square mile
        * Asia - 203 people per square mile
        * Africa - 65 people per square mile
        * Australia - 6.4 people per square mile

    Density doesn't seem to have any correlation with economic prosperity.

    Here is density by country in 2005, we are 173 of 232.  We have plenty of room, we could increase our population by a factor of 8 (~2 Billion people) and be right where Brittan is at.  So 12 million, in my mind isn't going to do much.  It would add millions of taxpayers who currently own zero to the IRS.

    But this goes back to my original post, it's a made up problem.


    Well, I'm glad you explained it. (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:10:27 PM EST
    I don't know a single person that is/would be competing with a third world migrant worker for a job.

    And I don't know a single bank robber so I guess we can just get rid of the police.


    Carrying capacity (none / 0) (#64)
    by waldenpond on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 12:15:33 PM EST
    I don't think I have ever seen a Dem who didn't think carrying capacity was a relevant issue.

    I always thought climate change was a relevant issue for liberals because of the impact on weather and pest cycles in growing food.

    Estimates are that is takes .7 to .25 of a hectare to feed one person but that would only be if climate change existed and the carrying capacity of food was more than magical thinking.


    Good One (none / 0) (#66)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 01:07:03 PM EST
    Not sure how that acre of food makes it to the market w/o migrant workers.  Not the point, but somewhat, crops that can't be mechanically harvested need cheap labor, ditto with organics.  Why not embrace that, instead of hating it while depending on it.

    But that wasn't my question, I was just curious when we hit that point, but now that you brought it up, how does crossing a border change the ratio ?


    Sad One (none / 0) (#69)
    by waldenpond on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 02:53:17 PM EST
    Really?  You can't figure out how to feed yourself without exploiting people?  Here's a thought... grow your own and buy from responsible local producers.... you know: consider the carrying capacity of your region.

    We hit 'that' point long ago.  The US is not capable of maintaining itself without the severe exploitation of other peoples and their resources.  It's even higher now... 2005 we imported 15% of just our food.

    The math on this couldn't be simpler... if one person crosses a border one way at the same time another person crosses in the opposite direction, the ratio remains constant.  The issue is that the US is already over capacity.

    Running over capacity and exploiting others is no different than the conservative value of concentrating wealth with the 1% at the expense of the 99%.


    Not Sure What You Mean (none / 0) (#77)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Aug 18, 2011 at 10:32:38 AM EST
    Really?  You can't figure out how to feed yourself without exploiting people?

    I get your point I think, but allowing people citizenship is hardly exploiting them.

    I disagree and ask you to site your source in regards to capacity.  
    We export a lot of grains, something like 15% of corn is actually used for human consumption.  And around 25% of all grains are used in the production of ethanol.  Not sure of the percentage, but the USDA estimates we will export $126B crops in 2011.

    I don't see how numbers like that can equate to being at capacity, importing crops surely isn't an indicator of capacity when we export ~33% more than we import.  See here for the USDA's 2011 estimations.  

    And I do thank you for letting me know I, "can't figure out how to feed yourself without exploiting people".  Although totally unrelated, I spent 18 years on a farm in Wisconsin, and we actually fed ourselves, not from non-existent farmers markets, but by actually planting and harvesting our food.  Which when I think back was maybe 1% of total production, had we planted subsistence crops instead of cash crops we could have fed a lot of people.

    Not sure what any of this has to do with my original immigration post, oh yeah, deny people rights because we can't feed them with the very crops they harvest ?


    Cheap labor use to be (none / 0) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:17:32 PM EST
    men, women and children chopping and picking cotton.

    Most of'em black and all of them poor.

    Then they mostly left the farm for Chicago and Detroit City and guess what happened.....

    Necessity became real and technology invented chemicals so chopping isn't needed and mechanical cotton pickers were developed so we no longer need people picking.

    Pay enough to attract US citizens and you will be amazed at what can be done.

    Utilizing illegal immigrants for stoop labor is just a way for us to use the rest of the world to do what we don't want to do.


    We've seen we have limited ability to (none / 0) (#14)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 08:34:41 AM EST
    affect other governments, no matter what our trade policies. Even accepting for the moment that we can substantially improve conditions in other countries eventually, in the meantime I believe it is humane to, if not help, at least not hinder people doing the best they can to escape their conditions in those countries.

    We protect our workers here, no matter their countries of origin, by demanding no exceptions to minimum wage and other workers rights, and being willing to shop at places that charge higher prices for US-made products. Very few people are scrupulous about that, including myself.


    The Bus (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 07:12:05 AM EST
    made in Canada.

    Now, tell me more about creating jobs in America!

    We'd have even less auto manufacturing (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 08:40:46 AM EST
    in America right now if conservatives had had their way about the auto company bailouts.

    Is there an American -made bus alternative? Just curious.


    In NM... (none / 0) (#63)
    by desertswine on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 12:09:59 PM EST
    our railrunner was made in Canada.

    No that's not it. That was a joke. Here it is.

    Hell, even our license plates are made in Canada.


    Please submit some actual proof that (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:02:29 PM EST
    GM and Chrysler could not have declared bankruptcy, reorganized, and continued in business.

    In fact, looking at the Volt I would say it would have been better.

    The bail out was about paying off the unions for support in '08 and in coming years.


    $360M in Afghanistan... (none / 0) (#30)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 10:07:32 AM EST
    ... ended up in the Taliban or other criminals pockets.


    Nice even number, looks like each and everyone of us has donated a dollar to the people Uncle Sam is protecting us from.

    I guess the good news is it's not a semi full of cash missing in Iraq.

    Austerity Now !!!! (none / 0) (#33)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 10:52:59 AM EST
    Study: 1 in 5 American children lives in poverty

    And the beat goes on, "Give people with everything more and the people with nothing less."

    Rate for Texas is 1 in 4 (none / 0) (#36)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:01:48 AM EST
    Bah, they all have big-screen TVs and ipods (none / 0) (#39)
    by Dadler on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:07:05 AM EST
    Haven't you heard, the poor here are just too well off, gotta get 'em more equal with their third-world job competition.  Ricky Perry's on it, baby.



    yea but (none / 0) (#41)
    by CST on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:13:21 AM EST
    Texas is creating jobs!!!!

    Ask the right wing and they are the only state that's doing things right apparently.  Even if they are all minimum wage jobs, in a state with one of the lowest high school gradation rates, and you are still going to be living in poverty with no healthcare.

    Every state should try to be just like Texas.  Although it sure helps to be sitting on a bunch of liquid gold.


    Texas (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:17:43 AM EST
    is now Mississippi of the Rio Grande!

    FYI, that same study (none / 0) (#49)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:31:04 AM EST
    puts Massachusetts number one in a broad measure of child wellbeing and VT number 3 or 4.  In between are NH and Minnesota.

    I knew I could get things fired up this morning (none / 0) (#47)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:23:40 AM EST
    with this one simple post.

    Thanks, ScottW for hanging one (none / 0) (#48)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:26:13 AM EST
    right over the plate.

    Required to present passport (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:41:01 AM EST
    @ airport security in Copenhagen. No shoe removal required. @ gate boarding pass scanned and name compared w/passport. Arrival @ Munich airport:  keine. Just walk out.

    kdog: very impressive you. (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 11:50:48 AM EST
    "a life-long bachelor" are industriously making your abode for your very special lady.

    at 30 something (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by CST on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 12:07:15 PM EST
    "life-long" can still change :)

    Had to be done anyway... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 12:01:18 PM EST
    we've skipped quite a few spring cleanings...a very special houseguest is the perfect excuse/motivation to get it done.

    Between all the outdoor work, and now the indoor, the place is tip top.