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Obama On 'Entitlement' Programs

According to the NYTimes:

The president ... called on Congressional Democrats to be open to a deal that would makes changes to entitlement programs like Social Security and Medicare, which some parts of the caucus have strictly opposed. .... He added that .... "I’m prepared to take on significant heat from my party to get something done.”

.... Democrats, meanwhile, have expressed opposition to any deal negotiated by Mr. Obama that would cut benefits to Medicare or Social Security recipients.

I'm pretty sure the President is not referring to raising the FICA cap here.

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    Let them eat peas! (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by TJBuff on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:35:39 AM EST


    No peas (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:44:12 AM EST
    We have been told that if people saved properly for retirement (as he does), we wouldn't need SS. Now you might think this self-righteous comment was made by a pull yourself up by your bootstraps Republican. But, no just a "New Democrat" party member in support of Obama's policies to take away benefits so that the rich can become even richer.

    Parent
    No, Obama should have said (none / 0) (#3)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:41:41 AM EST
    "let them eat imported sugar snap peas with oyster sauce and garlic----because times are tough"

    Parent
    Nope, it's "let them eat arugula" (none / 0) (#7)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:50:37 AM EST
    as well we remember, those of us who were paying attention in the primaries.

    None of this is a surprise, sadly.  Still, I had hoped that the man would smarten up by now.

    Parent

    Well, he's had a rough time with (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:52:56 AM EST
    people like you hurting his feelings. Give the guy a break. Second term will be GREAT!

    Parent
    Arugula is just about a weed down here (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:54:12 AM EST
    One little seed and it will take over your yard, even in November.  He will be excited for me, and my easy ability to win the future :)

    Parent
    You owe me (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:55:07 AM EST
    a clean computer screen now.

    Classic!

    Parent

    What was Dukakis's vegetable? (none / 0) (#19)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:57:01 AM EST
    Soybeans and..?

    Parent
    Belgian endive.. how could I forget!!! (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:58:46 AM EST
    Makes arugula seem common!

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:11:23 PM EST
    it's more like $100 a lb. ham for me and spam for thee!

    Parent
    sheesh, only an idiot would pay (none / 0) (#45)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:14:56 PM EST
    100/lb for ham.... but if we're talking Jamon Iberica, that's a different story!

    Parent
    Well, the idiot who did just that (none / 0) (#56)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:30:40 PM EST
    got elected president.

    Parent
    I actually found that a defining moment. (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:34:48 PM EST
    Everything a candidate does has to be considered for effect. Buying $100/lb. imported ham on a campaign stop showed incredible insensitivity, in my opinion. Other's  may find my complaint picayunish, but look how Obama identifies with fat cats---you could see it clearly in that moment. He probably had a Rockefeller like belief that ordinary people "only buy this  kind of stuff a couple times a week, on their average, 200K salaries".

    Parent
    Kinda like the $700 bottles of wine (none / 0) (#81)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:54:53 PM EST
    that the champion of auterity, Wisconsin's Rep. Ryan, enjoyed while being photographed with his lobbiest companions at a restaurant last week? Those fancy public outings come back to haunt you.

    Parent
    Not sure how the comparison (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:12:07 PM EST
    helps Obama. Anyway, I was talking about the image candidate Obama projected. Even Sarah Palin knows better than to flaunt wealth.
    Perhaps Obama and Gingrich would be a good comparison.

    Parent
    I was agreeing that it never looks good (none / 0) (#111)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:16:59 PM EST
    to dine out with expensive wine (& lobbyists) when one is the chief Republican author of austerity. That also holds true for Democrats...whether Obama's reported arugula taste or previous tastes some earlier candidates had for expensive haircuts.

    Parent
    I hate it when someone refers to (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:19:49 PM EST
    a Drudge type fabrication as evidence of a point.


    Parent
    Huh? I don't read Drudge. Do you? (none / 0) (#125)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:28:03 PM EST
    Exactly like Paul Ryan, yes (none / 0) (#109)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:16:18 PM EST
    -- although those bottles were $350 apiece, and he paid for one when that was pointed out, and he said that paying so much for wine was stupid.  (Oh, the ad that can be made from that admission that he is stupid!).

    I cannot imagine how you take comfort from pointing out that Obama and Ryan are so much alike.

    Parent

    I didn't say anything about "comfort" (none / 0) (#116)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:20:28 PM EST
    Just sayin' that we all have to be careful about showing big spending habits--no matter who we are--during hardtimes.  (And, wink-wink, since Ryan is the undisputed champion of austerity positions....)

    Parent
    Make stuff up again, (none / 0) (#160)
    by me only on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:09:34 PM EST
    are we?

    Next the wine will be $5,000/bottle.

    Parent

    The $700 wasn't "made up" (none / 0) (#186)
    by Yman on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:14:14 PM EST
    It wasn't $700 per bottle.  They ordered two bottles @ $350  per bottle.

    Parent
    He didn't drink two bottles (none / 0) (#188)
    by me only on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:18:24 PM EST
    and he paid for his one drink.

    Oh right, using you're own money to buy things, heaven forbid.

    Parent

    May we assume this President dislikes (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:40:48 PM EST
    eating peas as opposed to former President detesting broccoli?  If so, what is the significance of this disparity for the future of our nation?

    Parent
    Yes, but the President is forcing you (none / 0) (#110)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:16:54 PM EST
    to eat peas whether you want to or not. He, members of Congress and his fat cat friends will still dine on "Maine lobster salad with roasted beets, duos of Black Angus beef, braised short ribs with young spinach, and roasted tenderloin with stuffed potato and hen of the woods at the Daniel, where the six-course tasting menu runs to $195 a person."

    We, the taxpayers, will also be footing the bill for his and past and future president and members of Congress' entitlement programs which I am willing to bet will not be eliminate or cut as part of "eating peas."

    Parent

    Perhaps Jamie Oliver can (none / 0) (#126)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:31:19 PM EST
    come up with Peas ala Obama.
    Actually one of his from scratch dishes is pasta with pancetta and peas in a cream sauce.


    Parent
    Pea growers react swiftly: (none / 0) (#147)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:52:39 PM EST
    on that note (none / 0) (#161)
    by CST on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:10:18 PM EST
    on behalf of the lobster industry in Maine: link

    Parent
    If he wanted to help demand (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:41:35 AM EST
    He would enrich existing entitlements.  This would also aid in the economic disparity that numerous economists say is killing us and our economy.  Cutting entitlements will exacerbate disparity and exacerbate our huge problems at this juncture. The people on the end of such entitlements spend their money because they have to.  We don't have to wait around hoping that they will invest in winning the future hopefully, erm somehow, perhaps if they have no regulations or taxes to pay, oh feck it let's make a bank...  The entitlement people need things now, and will spend everything we give them and backstop more job loss, even stand a chance of creating jobs.  I think our President is utterly insane!

    He's going full austerity man, that's for sure (none / 0) (#12)
    by TJBuff on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:54:01 AM EST
    The puzzlement is how he expects to get any votes from the lower 90% with that.

    Parent
    with upper 1% voting machines. (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:59:20 AM EST
    Oh My (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:00:35 PM EST
    I don't have it in me to go back to that outrage :)

    Parent
    He (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:48:06 PM EST
    like everyone else in his circle don't get that there's a lower 90% or even lower 95%.

    It's really quite simple:  We don't count.

    Remember he's telling us that we don't have the necessary skills and that's the reason so many are unemployed.  Structural you know.  So it's all our fault and we're really very annoying little people.

    Parent

    I think he thinks that if our (none / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:59:18 AM EST
    fiscal house is in order, magic will happen.  Wall Street believes this.  Wall Street investors don't like how much debt we are packing on.  But the whole world is, and we are still the currency of choice because of that.  People who have investors minds (savvy businessmen) who can't fathom actually creating anything tangible or a durable good, think that creating a better investor climate will fix everything.

    Parent
    He's maybe (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:05:43 PM EST
    the reincarnation of Herbert Hoover.  The thinking's the same and then only difference between Andrew Mellon and Timothy Geithner is that Geithner wants his people on the Street to suffer not one iota.

    Parent
    Wall Street the Honey Badger (5.00 / 2) (#152)
    by Addison on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:02:23 PM EST
    I sort of don't think Wall Street cares one way or the other. We've had one of the most incoherent and flat-lining economic policies over the last 2 years. More stimulus is needed but none is passed. People complain about debt and then renew huge tax cuts. The health care bill is passed but medical stocks don't do anything substantial. Etc. And yet the stock market is up 5,000 points! I don't think that's because we're "tackling debt" or whatever it's called. I think it's because stock was really cheap 2 years ago because it plunged well below its actual value for psychological reasons.

    I think that Wall Street would be happy whichever way the administration had decided to go -- gov't anti-stimulus or stimulus. They know how to make a profit no matter what. When we talk about who this current course of action makes happy, I think we're talking about a small subset of academic-oriented I-bankers and beltway policy wonks. Wall Street itself appears apathetic about the actual policies enacted, despite the fact that we're told so often that it must not be spooked lest the Earth swallow middle-class America whole.

    Parent

    You need the honey badger (none / 0) (#158)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:05:28 PM EST
    video to go with this.

    Parent
    I guess we will see if the Dems (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:48:59 AM EST
    opposition to cuts to benefits to Medicare or Social Security recipients has any real meaning or if they will try to con people by legislating cuts and just call them something else.

    i love (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Turkana on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:49:06 AM EST
    how he cedes ground and cedes ground and the gop just doesn't. and he responds by saying he's willing to cede more ground.

    andrew leonard:

    The realpolitik of the situation is that in this game of debt ceiling poker, the Republican bluff has yet to be called. Time is getting tight, but we're still a ways from a crisis. And not only is the bond market not yet freaking out, but GOP hardliners also have no reason to believe that Obama will play his hand to the limit. So why should they compromise? Obama is very likely to decide that it would be the height of folly to risk "the full faith and credit" of the United States in a showdown over the debt ceiling. He has huge economic incentives to make a deal. Meanwhile, the longer House Republicans can successfully pretend that they are willing to go over the debt limit precipice, the better the ransom they can extort.

    That may change if enough political heat is generated. And if we want to be optimistic, maybe it's possible that the events of the past few days could start focusing the nation's attention on exactly who it is in Washington that is behaving most irresponsibly. Much as it made progressives nervous, Obama's offer to put big cuts in Social Security and Medicare on the table did expose how shallow House Republican allegiance is to making a meaningful difference in the budget deficit.

    But it's going to take more than rhetorical gestures and "grand bargain" offers to get House Republicans to crack. Ultimately, the only way I can see for Obama to win this battle is to go over the precipice himself.



    Umm (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:53:20 AM EST
    Duh?

    Parent
    The realpolitik of the situation (5.00 / 6) (#11)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:53:40 AM EST
    is that Obama wants to cut SS, Medicare and Medicaid and is using this faux crisis to justify his actions.

    Any cuts made to the entitlement programs are because Obama, not Republicans, forced them to be made.

     

    Parent

    Citations? (none / 0) (#85)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:56:46 PM EST
    I take it you missed his press conf? (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:07:30 PM EST
    I did not hear it all...only some (none / 0) (#124)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:27:02 PM EST
    That is why I asked for a cite.

    Parent
    Might want to go and try and (none / 0) (#127)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:33:15 PM EST
    find it. Might help you understand what folks who did see it are talking about . . .

    Parent
    I understand (none / 0) (#200)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:50:47 PM EST
    Looked further. Saw no usage of the word "cut" when speaking of Social Security.  Saw other words...and for those who have followed the issue for years, as have I, there are systemic changes that do not call for stated benefit "cuts."

    Again: Nowhere is the word "cut" (or a word meaning the same) used by the President even in the context of a larger resolution deal.

    Should I clarify my question further? (Strike that.)

    Parent

    By all means, please use this one (5.00 / 3) (#203)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:59:45 PM EST
    press conference and the absence of the word "cut" with regard to Social Security to bolster your opinion that Obama's not talking in the wider discussion about cuts to benefits, and then go do a little looking around at "chained CPI" which is reported - from multiple sources, and no, I'm not going to do the work for you - to be the new way in which SS benefits - among other things - get calculated.

    I know your pattern is to be prone to reaching, but this time you've outdone yourself.

    Parent

    Deficit deal (none / 0) (#128)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:33:49 PM EST
    transcript of today's press conference at Chicago Sun Times.

    Parent
    Thanks for the transcript. (2.00 / 1) (#205)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 04:05:01 PM EST
    As for Social Security statements: The key words for me center on his stated intent to preserve the "integrity" of Social Security for now & down the road.

    (Note: The reason I've been playing a kind of gadfly as to the virtual cascade of fears about what would happen to Social Security in any debt resolution matter is to push back on fears stated without factual evidence. While you are not engaging in that sky-is-falling stuff, some others are. It is not for me to judge what is prompting the rush of heavy fear...but, I can call for and find and read the only direct statements that we have to date.)

    Parent

    Let's just say that the GOP (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:55:40 AM EST
    decides not to raise the debt ceiling - just for their own kicks and grins...

    What do you think is really going to happen?

    Does anyone really believe that the Executive Branch would stop paying the bills?

    I really do not believe that would happen.

    This is a manufactured "crisis" and the Democratic Leadership is just as complicit in creating a fake threat as the Republicans are.

    Parent

    The new IMF head, Christine LaGarde (none / 0) (#93)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:01:21 PM EST
    spoke yesterday with Christiana Amanpour about the highly negative almost immediate consequences worldwide of US being perceived as being unable or unwilling to pay its debt.

    Also: It was widely reported yesterday that in 1979, a chicken game was played for awhile as to the debt ceiling and the matter was resolved only a few hours before the cut-off. The fear that it sparked led to a day of not being able to pay Treasuries, redemptions, etc. Immediate downturn in the financial world with rising interest rates.

    Parent

    Social Security and Medicare (5.00 / 8) (#52)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:21:31 PM EST
    are not entitlements. I PAY FOR THOSE! Raise the cap. Why should pay FICA on 100% of my income and the CEO of the company I work for pays a fraction of that?

    You pay for them and therefore (none / 0) (#54)
    by masslib on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:24:12 PM EST
    are entitled to them.  It's sad that Americans no longer feel they are entitling to anything, even the things they pay for.

    Parent
    Of course. Insurance payments (none / 0) (#55)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:30:03 PM EST
    are NOT called entitlements, because we have paid in for coverage at a later date.

    ABG and his ilk apparently missed the chapter in their history textbooks about FDR and the creation of what was called old-age insurance for decades, during discussion of doing it, until the term Social Security was coined for it in the end.

    I think that as long as we're changing Social Security, we ought to change the title of the program back to what it was: old-age insurance.  

    Then ABG and his ilk would have to try to call that an entitlement, and maybe more people would get what is really going on in this debate.

    Parent

    Um, LBJ called them entitlements. (none / 0) (#58)
    by masslib on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:32:36 PM EST
    Again, Americans didn't always feel they were entitled to absolutely nothing from the government they pay for.

    Parent
    Someone should point Americans (none / 0) (#89)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:59:43 PM EST
    to their payroll stubs so as to see the words FICA (Federal Insurance Contributions Act).

    Parent
    Because the CEO who pays the maximum in (none / 0) (#68)
    by itscookin on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:40:51 PM EST
    but makes more money than is subject to tax gets the same benefits as the person who makes the maximum. Benefits are capped, too. That's what keeps the program from being a "welfare" program. While I don't disagree that those of us who earn more can afford to kick more in, it would change the basis of the program to do that. Unless of course, you also want to increase the payout to people making more than the maximum amount now subject to the FICA payroll taxes. One of things that has made SS a sacred cow is that the general public does not see it as a welfare program.

    Parent
    The CEO pays the exact same number (none / 0) (#71)
    by BTAL on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:44:03 PM EST
    of dollars you do up to the cap.  If you both pay the same amount over the course of your life you both receive the same return.

    Why should the CEO pay more into this "non-entitlement" program yet receive effectively less than you?

    Parent

    Because otherwise it adds (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by my opinion on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:34:55 PM EST
    to the growing gap between the wealthy and the rest of the good citizens of our great country. It prevents unnecessary pain suffering and death of the people.

    Parent
    Morality (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:33:58 PM EST
    That is why.  What our parent taught us about sharing and being greedy.  Let me put it another way.  Why should this CEO making millions act more generous than he has to?  Because if he doesn't he is a worthless motherphucking piece if sh*t, who cares about nothing more about his fat wallet and tiny d*ck, and who deserves to have a spear shoved through his head.

    Parent
    There is no guarantee (none / 0) (#84)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:56:40 PM EST
    particularly in this economy, that anyone who is a CEO today isn't going to be lying face down in the ditch next week and never able to work or pay in again.  He still deserves coverage and care though.

    The problem with people like you...and I really mean to say people like you....is that you assume that once someone passes a certain point of "success", that they will maintain that for the rest of their days because they work harder and they are smarter, more capable people.  You come from the position that if everyone paid on all their income, that you are penalizing success.  Success is a fickle witch though, and one days success is tomorrow enormous failure and sometimes even bankruptcy and/or being bailed out on the poor man's grandchildren's income.  I've seen some real incompetent people get some big salary rewards and some very deserving people get shafted.  There is nothing "fairer" about how we are currently paying taxes on these existing programs than if we all paid on all of our income.

    Parent

    I made no such comment or position (none / 0) (#137)
    by BTAL on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:45:10 PM EST
    that you are talking about.  Nor does your comment address the point that I was responding to.

    The "people like you" comment is comical.  Point to where I "assumed" anything much less projected the future of either the CEO or the non-CEO payee of SS contributions relative to their ultimate personal financial retirement situations.

    Regarding "fairer" then you must agree that if someone pays in more then then should receive more in return.  Yes?  

    Parent

    No, they don't deserve more (none / 0) (#179)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:41:37 PM EST
    they simply deserve to be treated like everyone else and preserve our civil society, the same society that allows them and makes it possible for them to live safely in such comfort and wealth.  Things are on the brink of getting very very uncivil and pretty soon nobody will have safety and security.  This isn't rocket science, and we really are all in this together on many levels that some people don't want to acknowledge.

    Parent
    As mentioned above by others (none / 0) (#183)
    by BTAL on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:58:01 PM EST
    Continue with that approach and SS will become a welfare program and will certainly be eliminated.

    To expect SS to collect 2,3,4,5 times the amount from some yet return to them from this "social insurance" policy the same amount as those that paid 1x is not "fair" nor will the majority of people see it as such.

    That is a doomsday policy model for SS.

    Parent

    Other industrialized demcracies (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:16:16 PM EST
    Don't have such problems and have such programs. It is only American rhetoric that hurts our own people, damages them, their ability to even live, and kills them.  Threats such as yours are comical to me.

    Parent
    Not my threat, see other's opinions here (none / 0) (#195)
    by BTAL on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:24:24 PM EST
    and elsewhere.

    The same logic holds true for means-testing SS payments/benefits.  Never going to happen.

    When a program is created and expectations of equity and security (protected by the govt) to then have the govt take effectively an Orwellian (some are more equal than others) enforcement based on facts outside the agreed upon rules of the program ensures the program will fail.

    The everybody plays and everyone gets a trophy philosophy doesn't apply.

    Parent

    Did you know that that doomsday (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:19:28 PM EST
    policy model called Canada created more jobs that we did last month?  What is their population again?  And they "created" more jobs than the U.S.  We are worse than pathetic at this point.  We are the model of everything to NOT DO and rhetorical principles to NOT UPHOLD.

    Parent
    Canada took a different approach (none / 0) (#196)
    by BTAL on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:29:03 PM EST
    to the 2008 crisis regarding govt stimulus.  They did have one but much smaller and better focused.  The same can be said for Germany with its emphasis on manufacturing and exports to dig out of their hole.  (A point I was poo-poo'd on here in the past).

    But, that is an entirely different subject from SS contribution caps.  The Canadian retirement system has nothing to do with their job creation numbers.

    The discussion point is SS contribution equity.

    Parent

    Lentinel, did you hear anything in (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:30:44 PM EST
    the President's speech and/or responses to indicate he acknowledges how much fricking money the U.S. is spending for "defense" abroad?

    But that money is okay to spend (none / 0) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:07:15 PM EST
    oculus because nobody (Republicans) argues with anybody (Democrats) about that.  Nobody (Republicans) makes serious threats in the beltway about it and it is the only jobs program this President (Democrat) has.....because he doesn't have to educate the unwashed, gain large support from peons, or fight for it in any way.  It happens like magic, just like if America looks a little cuter to investors that that will magically fix our economy.

    Parent
    FICA Cap (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    But that, horrors, would be a tax increase, vapors coming on.  Let's just withhold benefits from working people, from the fund created with their own money.

    Could have raised FICA withholding cap in the last session.  Could have preserved some middle and lower income tax cuts in the last session to be effective after the Bush tax cuts expired.   Could have let the Bush tax cuts expire.  Could have raised the debt ceiling in the last session.

    Whatever his motives his performance has been incompetent.

    Sam Stein says, Obama wants SS cuts (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by TJBuff on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:19:39 PM EST
    Obama Offers to raise Medicare age from 65 to 67 (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by Dan the Man on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:37:38 PM EST
    Looks like Obama's trying to out-Ryan Paul Ryan's Ryancare.

    Huffington Post

    "According to five separate sources with knowledge of negotiations -- including both Republicans and Democrats -- the president offered an increase in the eligibility age for Medicare, from 65 to 67, in exchange for Republican movement on increasing tax revenues. "

    When's he going to start offering up (5.00 / 2) (#180)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:48:39 PM EST
    our first born?

    Parent
    He'll let you know. Thanks for your (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:52:17 PM EST
    sacrifice.

    Parent
    Well, isn't that just swell.. (5.00 / 3) (#192)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:22:01 PM EST
    making people pay private insurance premiums for an additional two years is just unconscionable; clearly he has absolutely not even the thinnest wisp of a clue how hard that is going to hurt some people - it really is just gob-smackingly offensive.

    I can speak only for myself, but I am getting damn sick and tired of having benefits I've earned and paid for - along with my uterus when it's convenient - being offered up as a sacrifice to get Republicans to compromise on other elements - which they won't do, but will end up in the legislation anyway, because - what the heck? - Obama wants them in there, too, so why not?

    I really am mad enough to spit.


    Parent

    Why Krugman Cant Complain About Lowering Medicare (none / 0) (#182)
    by Dan the Man on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:56:05 PM EST
    Age.  Why Not?  Because even though seniors aged 65 and 66 would no longer be able to get Medicare, they could get something (almost???) just as good - Obamacare.  As Krugman has been telling us over and over again, Obamacare and its exchanges are awesome.

    So all raising the Medicare age does is move some seniors from Medicare to Obama's exchanges, and since (as Krugman tell us), Obama's exchanges are awesome, how can he complain about that?  Heck, I think we're seeing Obama's plan to replace Medicare with Obamacare right before our eyes.

    Parent

    The amount that was allocated for (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:55:09 PM EST
    insurance premium subsidies only covered at best 32 million people. According to Pew 100,000 people are turning 65 each day.

    I want people to explain to me how we are going to spread the allocated funds to cover this additional, more expensive segment of the population. Also, I would like to know how the government can afford to higher rates to private insurance companies while not being able to afford the lower cost Medicare.  

    Parent

    Entitlement (5.00 / 5) (#202)
    by Powkat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:56:16 PM EST
    I DID save for my retirement - in 2008 Wall Street stole about 40% of my 401K, this year my company stopped contributing to our pension, costing me about $1,000/year in benefits, and now they want to slice and dice my Social Security and Medicare.  I did exactly what one was supposed to do - and it's all being stolen from me.  I should have spent it on what I wanted or paid for 100% of my kids college or just made a big bonfire on Halloween

    Twaddle (1.33 / 3) (#62)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:35:09 PM EST
    .

    Democrats, meanwhile, have expressed opposition to any deal negotiated by Mr. Obama that would cut benefits to Medicare or Social Security recipients.

    What twaddle.  The Donks already took $500 billion out of Medicare in the Obamacare bill and established a payment board (aka death panel) to decide which treatments will not be paid for.

    so what you're saying is (none / 0) (#94)
    by CST on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:03:47 PM EST
    everyone without insurance today is effectively dead?

    Or do you think that all possible healthcare should be paid for, by the government, for all people?  Because that's something I could get behind.  You'll probably need to raise taxes for that though.

    Otherwise, what are you whining about?  That someone is going to make a decision?  What is the alternative?  A computer?  A crystal ball?  Someone at an insurance company who's stock will go up if you don't get treatment?

    Parent

    What I am saying is (none / 0) (#151)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:01:32 PM EST

    "Medicare as we know it is already dead and gone.  Obamacare killed it."  

    The addition of the payment board (death panel) makes the program fundamentally different.  What treatment can be provided will no longer be decided by you and your doctor from choices the FDA determines to be safe and effective.   Safe and effective does not mean jack squat if you are poor and the payment board says no dice.

    Parent

    putting (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by CST on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:28:51 PM EST
    death panel in parenthesis doesn't make you any less of a hack.

    And you didn't answer my question.  I guess only poor seniors need treatment paid for.  If you are young, poor, and sick you are ok to die.

    Btw, medicare doesn't pay for everything today.  They only pay for things they deem medically necessary.  I bet a board or person determines those things.  The FDA also makes decisions that could affect your ability to get lifesaving drugs.  Sometimes they withold drugs from the market that could potentially save lives, for various reasons.  Are they a death panel?

    The payment board will be politically accountable.  Who is your insurance agency accountable to today?

    Parent

    Bottom Line (none / 0) (#10)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:53:33 AM EST
    All of these comments about what Obama should be doing and is willing to do and how conservative he is and what not don't ever address the fundamental issue:

    Do you believe that a US default will be catastrophic to the economy?

    If your answer is no, then fine.  Please continue demanding that Obama concede on nothing. Godspeed to you.

    If your answer is yes, then how on earth do you square that with the idea that you want priority No.1 to be jobs.  If we default, the folks hurt the most rapidly will be the lower and middle class folks already struggling.  Credit card rates will go up within a month.  Adjustable mortgages will go up.  People will instantly see a bottom line hit to their monthly expenditures and that says nothing about the impact to jobs.

    You can't demand that Obama focus on jobs and then tell him to do so by allowing a default to happen that would easily drive unemployment up another percent in the next 6 months or so.

    A clean bill (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:54:54 AM EST
    Raise the debt ceiling.  That's all.  What is your objection to that?

    Parent
    He does not object to that (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:03:23 PM EST
    He accepts that the GOP will not go for that and does not have to because Obama will blink.

    And really, he has to blink.

    The "negotiation" was lost in December when Obama gave the GOP the only thing they wanted, the Bush tax cuts.

    Parent

    None (none / 0) (#28)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:03:33 PM EST
    I believe that Obama's speech just raised the odds of that happening.

    The problem is that people here confuse the purpose of that speech.  That speech wasn't about advocating for entitlement cuts.  Despite everyone's freak out over cuts, we have no idea what changes look like, how they could be structured, etc.  It's all just words.

    What that speech was about was laying out, as clearly as possible, the fact that the republicans were the ones guiding us towards disaster. As we near the deadline, this speech and the others prior to and after will all become crucial as the markets begin to flip out and Wall Street realizes that things are really going to go bananas.

    When that happens we will either get a clean bill because Boehner will break away from the Tea Party to do it or we will get a compromise that has a real revenue piece.

    My bet is that the GOP takes the Biden deal at the last minute, which isn't great but is supposed to contain enough tricks and spins to keep entitlements largely intact, grab a bunch of revenue and be viewed as a victory for dems.

    If Obama can get the deal that the GOP walked away from the table over just a month ago, it is a win.

    You have to keep in mind that we're dealing with crazy people and with those crazy people, the Biden deal is a victory.

    Parent

    Raised the odds? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:04:51 PM EST
    How in Gawd's name did it do that?

    Parent
    That you say "entitlements," too (5.00 / 7) (#34)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:06:57 PM EST
    says it all.

    You are a Republican.

    Parent

    Bingo (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:16:46 PM EST
    Oh sweet geezus (none / 0) (#59)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:33:01 PM EST
    I use the word because typing medicare, social security and medicaid is a pain in the ass.

    Give me a short one word term for all of that and I'll use that instead.

    I use it because of laziness, not ideology.

    Parent

    B.S. (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:37:21 PM EST
    You could just as easily type "safety net." Is that too difficult for your fingers?

    Parent
    my lazy fingers like ss/mc2 :) (none / 0) (#69)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:42:46 PM EST
    Somebody as verbose on the keyboard as ABG is (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:45:20 PM EST
    needs to soak his fingers every once in a while. Apparently.

    Parent
    BTD demonstrated for you (none / 0) (#61)
    by Towanda on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:34:56 PM EST
    in the header to this post that all you have to do is use quotation marks.

    I ought to have done so, too.

    I admit my mistake.

    Do you?

    Parent

    Let me surprise you (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:01:49 PM EST
    I think the President has no choice but to cave on the debt ceiling.

    I thought that in December when he did The Deal.

    This is all kabuki.

    This negotiation was lost last December.

    I will say this though -I see no upside for the President politically in engaging in this dance. The better approach would have been to wait for the GOP proposal a la the Ryan Budget and then blast it and of course cut the best deal possible but at least you make hay and "save SS and Medicare" and all that.

    This was dumb politically.


    Parent

    You would have (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:10:57 PM EST
    raised taxes on every american in December and you believe that Obama would be in a better position now.

    I continue to think that this is unsupportable for anyone who believes that entitlements should be protected.

    They'd have come after entitlements even harder and the changes would be immediate.

    Parent

    I would have not accepted (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:13:21 PM EST
    the GOP deal. Period.

    Taxes could have been cut in January, February, March . . .

    Once he gave that up, he was finished negotiating and was instead just being dictated too.

    Parent

    on EVERY american?? (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:13:51 PM EST
    Oh BTW (5.00 / 5) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:14:25 PM EST
    The President has a veto pen. He could have been the defender of SS and Medicare, not the guy leading the charge to cut them.

    My gawd, did you miss the whole Ryan Budget passage?

    Parent

    Now you are a Wall Street guy (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:16:24 PM EST
    So you must have done a deal or 2 in your time.

    Do you do deals by first giving the other side precisely what they want and then go begging for agreement on the things you want?

    You do not of course and you know that is PRECISELY what Obama did in December.

    How can you possibly defend that course of negotiation?

    Parent

    "They?" Please..."they" (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:18:59 PM EST
    don't have to go after entitlements because President Eat-Your-Peas is "leading" the way on that one.

    Sheesh.

    Parent

    You don't seem to get that there (5.00 / 5) (#31)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:05:45 PM EST
    is no requirement whatsoever that legislation to increase the debt ceiling be accompanied by a commitment to economic suicide; it's simply a matter of passing a clean bill that only raises the ceiling - the answer administrations and Congresses of both parties have supplied time and again over the last hundred or so years.

    That's how you avoid default, so the question is, why are both parties politicizing the debt ceiling now?  And why in the name of your deity of choice would we want to set the precedent for hostage-taking in the future?  With us - the people - being the ones who will suffer?

    I actually can demand that Obama focus on jobs, and he has one of the most effective tools at his disposal: harnessing the power of government to spend when the private sector's hands are tied by lack of demand.

    I guess we need look no further than your hysteria-laden comment to know just how effective the con job has been; some of us haven't fallen for it, and aren't going to give anyone a break for its manufacure or distribution, which, in my opinion anyway, has been exponentially more harmful than living with the debt.

    Parent

    I don't believe there is a chance in (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by masslib on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:22:01 PM EST
    hell the US will default on its debt as Mitch McConell has already told us, and frankly I don't appreciate the President playing chicken little with my social security.

    Parent
    Unfortunately for this argument (none / 0) (#17)
    by TJBuff on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:55:44 AM EST
    All the principals, including Boehner and McConnell, have already let slip the debt limit will be raised in time.

    Parent
    Giving in to Republicans on (none / 0) (#18)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:56:04 AM EST
    EVERYTHING is catastrophic. If Obama had shown some spine previously, Republicans wouldn't be trying this trick now.
    And don't think this is the last time the Republicans will hold the welfare of the country hostage.

    Parent
    Regardless of what Congress does, (none / 0) (#21)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 11:58:58 AM EST
    I do not believe that there would ever be a default scenario.

    Parent
    I believe that is correct (none / 0) (#32)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:06:13 PM EST
    Default would be a disaster to everyone from Wall Street to Main Street.

    There is no constituency who wants it and it won't happen as long as Boehner, Obama and Reid are the are around.

    If I am wrong it is because even I underestimated the insanity of the GOP.

    Does anyone here believe that we should go into default if the GOP does not concede the revenue position.  I want to hear the argument.

    Parent

    There will be no default (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:08:41 PM EST
    because Dems will agree to massive spending cuts. Hopefully most of them will be fake.

    Parent
    I never said that I though that (none / 0) (#97)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:06:01 PM EST
    the GOP wasn't crazy enough to opt for not raising the debt limit.

    What I said was that I don't really believe that the Executive Branch would be crazy enough to abide by their order and allow for an actual default.

    Parent

    Obama is the one threatening to veto (none / 0) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:02:51 PM EST
    raising the debt ceiling if the cuts are not deep enough.

    There is no way Wall St. would support letting the U.S. default on its debt and the Republican leadership have acknowledged this on more than one occasion.

    BTW, your whole rhetoric about Obama focusing on job creation is pure BS. He is already on record saying a job creation program would cost money that he is unwilling to spend.    

    Parent

    Nobody believes that veto threat (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:03:54 PM EST
    Maybe not but Obama is on record (5.00 / 5) (#39)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:11:02 PM EST
    threatening a veto not to defend SS, Medicare and Medicaid but threatening a veto if cuts are not made to these program.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:12:11 PM EST
    That's a different point.

    But yeah.

    Parent

    That was my point (none / 0) (#46)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:15:46 PM EST
    It's a good point (none / 0) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:16:52 PM EST
    What was the precise quote... (none / 0) (#102)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:10:01 PM EST
    since you say that it is on the record. Insofar as I know, he is legitimately saying that he would veto a short term (@3 mos.) deal because that is not how the US conducts itself in matters this serious. But, nowhere do I recall that Obama has directed that Social Security be cut or he would veto. Do you have a specific textual cite?

    Parent
    Agree. (none / 0) (#33)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:06:31 PM EST
    How to do a clean bill (none / 0) (#35)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:08:13 PM EST
    If I understand this correctly, no clean bill can be voted on until Boehner allows it to come to the floor and he would be massacred for it if he did it now.  It could only happen at the last minute when the fate of the economy is at stake and he swallows his pride to do what is best.

    This hinges on him, but can someone confirm.

    iirc (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:36:52 PM EST

    IIRC, it was brought to the floor in the House about a month ago and it failed.

    Parent
    There will be no clean debt ceiling bill (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:09:29 PM EST
    TL Masses (none / 0) (#51)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:19:42 PM EST
    What is wrong with the following deal (which I think is more or less the Biden deal):

    "a more modest package for roughly $1.7 trillion to $2.3 trillion in cuts with upwards of $500 billion in revenue increases, including $40 billion to $60 billion from ending tax breaks for corporate jets, yachts and race horses (and, possibly, a proposal to stop taxing hedge fund managers' income as capital gains, thus subjecting it to a higher rate); plus $150 billion to $200 billion in increased revenues from requiring more pension contributions from federal employees, broadcast frequency auctions and getting rid of farm subsidies; and another several hundred billion dollars from pegging inflation to the Consumer Price Index. All of the new revenues would be offset by a permanent or long-term Alternative Minimum Tax fix, a popular bipartisan move, thus satisfying the Grover Norquists of the world. This deal would include modest Medicare cuts, but to providers only, and could also include some short term stimulus such as an employer payroll tax holiday."

    No one's SS is yanked from them.  No ones' medicare is removed.

    If that is offered to avoid disaster and everything playing out gets us to that deal, is that not a perfectly acceptable on from a liberal perspective?

    If not, why not given the circumstances (and not the pie in the sky world of no cuts to anything whatsoever).

    Two things (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:37:13 PM EST
    First, this is not time to be talking about cutting spending.

    Second, there will be no tax increases.

    Parent

    Boehner is on T.V. right this minute (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:38:54 PM EST
    making it super clear he never agreed to any kind of tax increases and that WILL NOT BE HAPPENING.

    Parent
    Honestly, (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:43:16 PM EST
    he's a Republican whose standing up for his Republican party values. It's just our tough luck we don't have a Democratic president to stand up for Democratic values.

    Parent
    This is a good point (none / 0) (#79)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:50:40 PM EST
    that completely ignores what the man just said.

    "I do not see a path to a deal if they do not budge, period," he said. "They are going to have to compromise just like Democrats are willing to compromise, like I have shown myself willing to compromise."

    Parent

    You understand nothing about the way (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:07:33 PM EST
    the game is really played. Boehner will come out of this smelling something like a rose with his party. Obama? Not so much.

    Parent
    The problem is that the GOP sees (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:34:37 PM EST
    a path to a deal, and it runs right over Obama, who is a hard-core compromise junkie who needs intervention on that score, and therapy to address his pathological need to be accepted by his so-called political opponents; why I or anyone else should have to pay - and pay and pay - for Obama to indulge those psychological needs is a questions more people should be asking.

    Parent
    Response (none / 0) (#74)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:46:15 PM EST
    1. your tax spending point is correct but completely irrelevant and not worth mentioning in a world in which the Tea Party have this much power.

    2. Well that wouldn't be the deal just outlined, which includes tax increases.

    I was asking for thoughts on that deal, which I now think will be about what we get.

    Parent
    " there will be no tax increases" (none / 0) (#139)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:45:35 PM EST
    in the bargain.  True, but the Democratic spin is out.  Just you wait until the Bush tax cuts are scheduled to expire (again) and Obama (this time) will let them die.   Presto: $4 trillion,  that special chess game prevails and Obama gets the last laugh.

    Parent
    "TL masses"? Are you sure you are (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:45:58 PM EST
    the site you intended?  Also, talk about generalizing.  

    Parent
    Hey, we're the great unwashed because (4.67 / 3) (#82)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:55:05 PM EST
    we don't swoon over the tactics and strategy of 'Teh One.'

    Parent
    I hate it when you somehow secretly (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:58:00 PM EST
    know I haven't washed yet today :)

    Parent
    "TL Masses" (none / 0) (#75)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:47:34 PM EST
    Now you're just looking for something to fight about.  I include myself in that cateogiry.

    TL Commenters, Men and Women of TL Nation, whatever your preferred term is to mean the people reading regularly, I'd be happy to use.

    Parent

    I didn't take you seriously with (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:56:49 PM EST
    that one, ABG. Come the revolution, I'll buy you a new hat ;-)

    Parent
    more cuts (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by suzieg on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:14:00 PM EST
    to the providers? My husband is on Medicare - got a kidney infection just before Christmas and was hospitalized for 3 days before they could find a urologist who would accept Medicare.

    He could not find a decent GP, after his doctor of 23 years stopped taking Medicare unless it was a Medicare Advantage plan, and was lucky to find a clinic which accepted Medicare but he's restricted to seeing interns only. We found out last month that they no longer take new Medicare patients and this is a clinic which serves mainly people on Medicaid.

    What's ahead for Medicare patients are minimal/rationed care, limited choices to inferiors doctors and state hospitals.

    Parent

    It's anti-stimulative (none / 0) (#77)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:48:07 PM EST
    Spending cuts and tax increases are both anti-stimulative and will harm the economy.

    The comment that all new revenues will be 'offset' by an alternative minimum tax is misleading. A revenue increase cannot be offset by another revenue increase, i.e. a tax, it can only be offset by a revenue decrease, i.e. a tax cut or spending increase.

    The Democratic negotiating position is 'we will give you what you want to do to harm the economy, (a spending cut) if you give us what we want to do to harm the economy (a revenue increase)'. Politico makes it clear how the concept of offset is being misused:

    But Biden and Obama disagreed with the Republicans that the Biden talks had produced any kind of ready-made agreement. They told Republicans that they wouldn't be able to take all the spending cuts without balancing them out with revenue increases, sources said.

    Spending cuts and revenue increases go on the same side of the balance sheet. They may balance each other out in a political sense, but not in an accounting sense. They are both a net decrease of money in the economy and will cause further contraction. No one who understands economics should support this.


    Parent

    You are right (none / 0) (#80)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:54:05 PM EST
    But we are beyond that point and have been for 2-3 years. The population wants both cuts and tax increases on the rich.  We can't take advantage of public opinion where beneficial while ignoring the fact that, although incorrect, tax cut as stimulus is a part of the psyche that was around way before Obama took office.

    This is the reality we have.  What do you do in that reality.  

    I still haven't heard a criticism of the proposal I outlined that phrases criticism in the realities of the situation.

    Parent

    You asked me (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:58:29 PM EST
    what's wrong with it, and I told you what's wrong with it. It's not my fault that Obama is a weak president and can't actually do the right thing for the economy.

    Parent
    House of Representatives (none / 0) (#106)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:13:14 PM EST
    and the way that laws are passed aside of course.

    Parent
    Well why don't you just ask (none / 0) (#113)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:17:40 PM EST
    'what's wrong with this deal given that no other deal is humanly possible'? What is the point of your original question then?

    Consider what a lousy negotiator Obama is - the GOP won't agree with him because Obama wants something, a tax increase, that is BAD for the economy. The Obama presidency is rapidly turning into a trainwreck.

    Parent

    You what is humanly possible? (none / 0) (#121)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:23:07 PM EST
    Usually what people are compelled to do.  Some people compel, and some people whine about those damned compellers out there pushing and pushing and pushing against the injustice and the dysfunction.

    Parent
    My point was that (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:26:30 PM EST
    ABG always shifts the goal posts in order to get the answer he wants to his questions.

    Parent
    I missed your point (none / 0) (#131)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:35:43 PM EST
    Sorry about that.  I agree

    Parent
    There are other deals possible (none / 0) (#134)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:43:04 PM EST
    Just none that involve zero cuts.  There are still people here who think we can avoid economic disaster by not raising the debt ceiling without a deal involving cuts. We'll either get a clean bill (which means we are at August 1 11:59 with no deal) or we get something with cuts that are fairly broad.

    It is difficult to discuss the actual deals that may be possible because people are still talking about a fantasy world in which no cuts is possible.

    Parent

    No cuts (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:50:09 PM EST
    would have been necessary if Obama had made the deficit ceiling part of 'the deal' back in December.

    Parent
    Yes, and he even could have framed it (none / 0) (#150)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:01:09 PM EST
    the way he did today on why, even though it doesn't affect the debt, he's putting Social Security on the table and into the mix: "The reason to include that in this package is, if you're going to take a bunch of tough votes, you might as well do it now."

    Funny that he didn't take that approach last December, huh?  I'm finding it easier and easier to believe that he was saving it for his own ideological reasons, one of which seems to be outmaneuvering his own party in an effort to be a better Republican than anyone on that side of the aisle.

    Sticking it to people who might have been irresponsible with their finances is just a delicious little bonus, I guess.

    Parent

    There's been a whole lot of alternate (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:24:35 PM EST
    reality being created over - at least - the last couple years when it comes to the economy, and some of what you claim "the population" wants has been driven by a campaign of misinformation and fear.  Kind of like what happened with the Iraq war - there's a reason so many of the population thought Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks, you know.

    That being said, what polling shows without question is that across political and demographic lines, "the population" does not want changes to the social safety net programs that will affect their present or future benefits.  

    As Warren pointed out, raising revenue takes money out of the economy, and so do spending cuts; what needs to be happening now is spending targeted to programs and initiatives that will create jobs - infrastructure projects create jobs up and down the employment spectrum, from engineers and programmers and supervisors to the person who holds up the reversible sign that directs traffic flow around a construction site.  Those people, now employed, (1) pay taxes (revenue increase), (2) pay into SS/MEdicare (build up the trust fund), (3) spend their money in the community - they pay rent, they buy groceries and gas, clothes, etc. and maybe they can occasionally eat out, or take a day trip somewhere fun (demand increases).  More money going into the local economy means maybe those businesses need to do some hiring, too.  

    See how that works?  When things have spiraled up and stabilized, the government can reduce its spending on these kinds of programs. Upward spiral, not down, which is where we're headed if this debt ceiling lunacy actually comes to fruition.

    If people had any real idea of what it meant for them, specifically, for the government to slash spending, I'm almost certain that public opinion - that thing that you apparently live for - would not be in favor of what Obama is doing.

    Parent

    The beltway reality (5.00 / 4) (#142)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:47:57 PM EST
    is what you say, but outside of Washington, that dog don't hunt.

     Oh, except where the Koch Brothers buy people.

    Folks want decent jobs, lower unemployment, and more security. They also want to see the folks blamed for the problem get punished.

    Instead of being made treasury secretary, for example.

    The news networks dictate what is important or not. That's why white woman in Florida kills baby (or not) is such a big story, but corporate criminals getting rich from deficit spending to fight wars that benefit nobody, or to prop up yet another failed puppet state-- Iraq or Afghanistan, take your pick, or Yemen or Libya. The people who own these 'news' outlets want their stock dividends every quarter, and the bubble headed bleach blondes earn large salaries for having nice teeth and asking inane  to absolutely stupid questions about non-issues, so the fat cats can keep doing what they do, run everything and hire private security to keep away the riff-raff.

    Real people want rich folks to pay their share, and pay back for having gotten more than their fair share for at least the past 11 years.
         Rich means more than 125k per person in the family. If they haven't yet figured out how to incorporate, use tax lawyers or whatever if they are self- employed, tell them to call oculus, jbindc, or any of the host of lawyers here who can write articles of incorporation. Lots of lawyers need work right now, too.

    I'm mad as hell, ABG, because after 8 years of Bush/Cheney, with their profligate spending and all-war-all-the-time, and fear, Fear, FEAR... well, with Obama's victory here's how I evaluate the changes...profligate spending and all-war-all-the-time, and fear, Fear, FEAR... combined with tax cuts and unemployment.

    I don't care about the argument whether the government needs to cut or not cut, whether the Tea Partiers (who are simply a vocal minority of Koch dupes who can afford television programs and heck, channels) the soulless Wall Streeters whose capitalistic accumulation ideology is the same as the ideology of cancer... to big banksters who are "too big to go to jail..." to delayed decisions, late actions, and a general lack of empathy or even understanding that most of us don't have a few million bucks from writing two pathetic books that were purchased in the same way that Regenery does for Anne Coulter.

    I care about people, jobs, and infrastructure, including social infrastructure, such as schools,
    Head Start, programs for the elderly, summer jobs programs for teens.

    I care about other folks like me, the 'hidden homeless,' who are living with relatives because of 'structural unemployment.' I care about the folks who have so much stress trying to make ends meet their families are coming apart.

    Does this administration? Does the president?

    Actions speak louder than words, yet his words chill most 'regular' americans.

    So things now are worse than under Bush. Obama inherited problems, and then he has made them worse. Hope and change. I sincerely hope for change. I pray for the president every day to change how he thinks, to become a person with real empathy.

    Change? Yes I want change. I want a job. want security in my declining years. I want to get health care for the numerous problems I have that are simply getting worse over time.

    I fought and bled for the rapacious banksters and war profiteers on Wall Street, for Big Oil and for Big Defense. I then spent nine years teaching our youth about what a wonderful country this is.

    And I got RIF'ed in the peace dividend, and RIF'ed in budget issues because big bankers screwed everything up, and wall streeters, speculators, and other parasites did the same.

    So. You think YOU'RE angry? Don't make me laugh.

    I don't want fame, I never expected to be rich, and I don't mind doing the tough things that have to be done.

    But I DO NOT APPRECIATE condescending presidents or plouffy speakers or television heads that make millions of dollars.

    I was happy making 50 k. I'm not greedy, unlike many folks.

    Now I'm told that the government isn't really hiring at any level, that us older workers may be unemployed for 10 YEARS due to hidden discrimination, and now you and others want change how SS gets calculated, especially in cost of living adjustments, and how Medicare needs to be changed, and how I was too fu@cking stupid to plan my life, so it sucks to be me, but AUSTERITY NOW means more than my life and the lives of 150 million Americans who make less than 60k annually.

    We don't count any more. We're not smart enough. We need to gt new skills since we were too frikkin' stupid to go into fields that create nothing and add nothing to the world, like managing hedge funds or trading stocks.

    Meh. I feel like what Forrest Gump said when Jenny was throwing rocks at the shack filled with terrible memories. "Sometimes, there's just not enough rocks."

    Parent

    I second every word (none / 0) (#194)
    by suzieg on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:24:00 PM EST
    you've written - you've echoed every sentiment that I'm feeling!

    Parent
    That wasn't really (none / 0) (#78)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:49:59 PM EST
    the Biden deal.  This was the Biden deal:

    Both sides, as they often said, were shooting for about $2.4 trillion in deficit reduction over 10 years. They'd already agreed on around $1 trillion in spending cuts and were making good progress on the rest of it. But Democrats insisted that $400 billion -- so, 17 percent -- of the package be tax increases. And that's when Republicans walked.

    Considering that in reality Democrats only pressed for about $400 billion in revenue, I doubt there's suddenly going to be appetite for about a trillion in revenue, AMT regardless.

    Parent

    But if the deal (none / 0) (#83)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:55:09 PM EST
    I proposed was offered, would it be acceptable.  This is a had question to get answered here.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 3) (#198)
    by suzieg on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:34:15 PM EST
    Most seniors who were lucky enough to put away a  nest egg are now eating their capital because of the next to nothing interest rates on their safe investments.

    Any cuts to their SS or added costs to their Medicare such as higher deductibles will further erode their measly balance sheets.

    Seniors are hurting during this bad economy, why is it acceptable for them to have to carry the burden so that the top 1% can still continue to enjoy their tax cuts? Why is it unacceptable for the top 1% to pay their fair share?

    Parent

    Would a clean debt-ceiling bill (none / 0) (#90)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 12:59:50 PM EST
    Be acceptable?  Yes.  That is the liberal option.  Hope for failure.

    I don't know why you think Jay Newton-Small's proposal has any chance of happening.  It doesn't appear to be sourced to anyone involved in negotiations at all.  My option is at least on the table.

    Parent

    What table? (none / 0) (#107)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:14:02 PM EST
    No one is talking about it that has any pull.

    Parent
    But it could actually happen (none / 0) (#114)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:19:02 PM EST
    as a result of negotiations failing.  

    Whereas the "Jay Newton Small" plan that you are using to test the integrity of commenters here is nowhere near the table.  

    Talk about pie in the sky.

    Parent

    Trump Card (none / 0) (#91)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:00:08 PM EST
    I know everyone thinks he's a wimp and all but the fact that no one discusses the expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts that will happen if no one does anything in connection with these negotiations says a lot.

    If Obama agreed to a deal with no revenue increase, he can still win the war in 2012.

    In fact, as Klein points out, it may be advantageous to the GOP to agree to revenue increases now as opposed to automatic bigger increases in 2012.

    2012 . . . . (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:04:13 PM EST
    you mean the year when extended UI benefits run out?

    Parent
    The Bush tax cuts already expired. (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:09:33 PM EST
    Where was Waldo then?

    Parent
    In the meantime... (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:11:01 PM EST
    The Obama tax cuts for the rich are costing us $60-70 billion dollars a year in needed revenues.

    Parent
    The federal government (none / 0) (#105)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:13:07 PM EST
    doesn't need more revenue. More revenue would be contractionary. The economy needs more spending.

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:14:47 PM EST
    How does that go down?  

    Parent
    Revenue (none / 0) (#117)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:21:27 PM EST
    extracts money from the economy. Spending adds money to the economy. Revenue and spending are opposites. The economy needs more money in order to stimulate growth, whereas more revenue just takes money out of peoples' pockets. As a monopoly issuer of the currency the federal government does not need any revenue in order to spend its currency.

    Parent
    But "they" say that we must (none / 0) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:34:26 PM EST
    cut programs because we don't have revenue to pay for them.  Programs that put money quickly spent on mainstreet into the economy.  So no....government revenue does not always lead to money extracted from the economy.  Sometimes the best economic multiplier, like right now, is government spent money.  And all the money being spent on Medicare and Soc Security literally goes right back into the economy and starts to immediately be rolled over and over.  Knee jerk economic rhetoric is stupid and even dangerous at times like this.

    What is broken in our country right now is economic disparity.  The disparity has now destroyed demand, which will eventually destroy all of the rich that brought about this disparity because they refuse to understand that it isn't all about them, and if it is all about them it will destroy them.

    Parent

    Yes all federal government revenue (none / 0) (#132)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:39:34 PM EST
    extracts money from the economy. Sometimes that revenue is offset by spending, of course. But it's the net spending that matters. Revenue lowers net spending.

    Parent
    Don't you covet Germany's economy (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:44:43 PM EST
    right now?  Look at all that fricken government spending.

    Parent
    And all that regulation and government (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:45:21 PM EST
    intervention, the bastards

    Parent
    Revenue does not lower (none / 0) (#133)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:42:06 PM EST
    net spending in a way that affects the economy in a detrimental way unless you are a King and the treasury is yours :)  The sort of problem you hearken to hasn't been seen in an industrialized country since when?  When was the last time it happened?

    Parent
    Revenue lowers net (none / 0) (#135)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:44:02 PM EST
    spending dollar for dollar. It's the opposite of spending.

    Parent
    Absurd (none / 0) (#143)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:48:11 PM EST
    The only person who needs to win in your grasp of economics is the investor....wildly absurd and utterly unsustainable

    Parent
    Explain to me (none / 0) (#146)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:52:22 PM EST
    how it is absurd and how it is unsustainable please.

    It is simple mathematics that net spending is the difference between total spending and revenue. When that number is positive we call it 'the deficit'. When it is negative we call it 'the surplus'. This is very basic accounting.

    Parent

    We have a whole economic (none / 0) (#148)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:57:33 PM EST
    team that has abandoned erm needed time with their families who come from your school of thought.  That school of thought is not working, no matter how many times they hunt that same old dog over and over and over again.  I understand that this must be how you make your living, that's fine, that's your choice.  Other people need to make a living too though and this is a democracy so weighting the system to favor you will never be something that happens forever.  And weighting the system towards finance and investing and investors is what got us into all this mess and now is really really really hurting flesh and blood people.

    Parent
    People who are just as worthy (none / 0) (#149)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:57:54 PM EST
    and hard working as you are.

    Parent
    So you are a (none / 0) (#156)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:04:12 PM EST
    deficit hawk? Ok.

    Parent
    No, I'm a Keynesian (none / 0) (#162)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:11:06 PM EST
    Well (none / 0) (#165)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:17:45 PM EST
    even Keynesians know that revenue increases are the opposite of spending and hence anti-stimulative. I have not seen Paul Krugman advocating for any tax increases. If I am wrong about that, however, please let me know where he does so.

    Parent
    Uhmmm I think you are talking (none / 0) (#172)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:25:18 PM EST
    about Neo Keynesians.  And Paul Krugman has said that the Bush tax cuts needed to expire, that they were going to hurt us in the end in exactly the way that they now are.

    Parent
    Ok then (none / 0) (#184)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:13:16 PM EST
    I disagree with Paul Krugman on this. It is simply contradictory to advocate for stimulus, as Krugman has done, while advocating for tax increases at the same time, since they are opposites of one another. This is incoherent.

    I have seen no evidence that the Bush tax cuts 'hurt us'. Could you elaborate? The problem with the Bush tax cuts is they were primarily directed at the wealthiest members of society, while leaving the rest of us with little. Personally I think congress should immediately cut the income tax rate for anyone earning less than about $65k a year to ZERO.

    Parent

    I disagree with you (none / 0) (#191)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:20:07 PM EST
    You are wrong

    Parent
    asdf (none / 0) (#141)
    by Addison on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:47:54 PM EST
    Revenue lowers net spending.

    Unless it's taxing money that wouldn't otherwise be spent and then spending it in sectors targeted to increase demand-side pressure and overall societal health. Not all taxed money would have been spent, and not all tax money spent is even spent on items/things that recharge the economy. And even if we take your assertion at face value and concede that it lowers "net spending", not all spending is equal in terms of (a) growing the economy, (b) growing it now and not 20 years from now when some bond matures, and (c) preventing mass suffering among the poor and soon-to-be poor.

    Parent

    I am talking about (none / 0) (#153)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:02:30 PM EST
    net government spending, not net spending by everyone, just to make that clear.

    It doesn't matter whether you tax one sector of the economy or another. Wherever the government taxes it is taking money out of the economy, even if that money isn't doing anything. Furthermore, the federal government does not need that money in order to spend. It is the monopoly issuer of the currency and can spend even without revenue.

    Am I saying the federal government should forgo all revenue? No. I'm saying in a time of major recession the government should not be seeking more revenue, it should be seeking more spending.

    Increasing revenue now is anti-stimulative and simply deficit hawkery. I thought it was more or less accepted here that reducing the deficit is not the way to go. Perhaps I am wrong about that and people here think that the liberal position is that the deficit needs to be reduced. I disagree with that position and consider it to be poor economics.

    Parent

    Ok... (none / 0) (#155)
    by Addison on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:03:58 PM EST
    ...so if I understand correctly you're advocating more deficit spending instead of increasing revenues? I was confused on that point, thanks for clearing it up.

    Parent
    Yes n/t (none / 0) (#157)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:04:27 PM EST
    He believes that MMT holds the answer. (none / 0) (#171)
    by me only on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:23:57 PM EST
    MMT is an interesting theory and "works" (none / 0) (#177)
    by BTAL on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:36:43 PM EST
    in a simplistic and isolated environment.  In a world economic environment with other currencies and suppliers it is a recipe for disaster.  If we (the U.S.) produced and consumed only within our shores then apply MMT and issue everyone their own printing press, ink and paper.

    Parent
    I see nothing in your comment (none / 0) (#189)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:18:48 PM EST
    that refutes MMT.

    Parent
    Do you support (none / 0) (#193)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:22:19 PM EST
    tax increases right now?

    Parent
    No way, dude (none / 0) (#199)
    by me only on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 03:37:01 PM EST
    tax cuts pay for tehmsleves.  Ibenna whitching (Megan) Fox (news) porn.  Or sumptin' like that.

    You know that we cannot have a serious discussion about this topic.

    Parent

    This appears to be (none / 0) (#118)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:22:36 PM EST
    the latest talking point.  As mentioned in another post, the conservative Ross Douthat makes that point.  Neither Douthat or Klein have ever been accused of having an original idea.

    Parent
    I recall during one of the (none / 0) (#112)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:17:27 PM EST
    presidential debates, then Senator Obama answered a question about strengthening social security financing by raising the earnings cap.  Now, whatever happened to that idea?  

    In my view, if there really is an urgent problem, that would be a solution--and one that could be rolled out over time given that the president acknowledges that the program does not contribute to the deficit and we have about 25 years to work on it. Scrap the cap and count earnings above the cap toward benefits with a modified formula.  This would be preferable to scraping the cap but not counting earnings above the cap, since it would keep the program away from the likely fate of a welfare program.

    Tim Geithner (none / 0) (#119)
    by Warren Terrer on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:22:50 PM EST
    is what happened to that idea.

    Parent
    Hmmm. (none / 0) (#120)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:22:52 PM EST
    I wonder in what negotiations currently ongoing that the raising-the-cap issue might have a bit of a role? A bargaining point, perhaps?

    Parent
    Doubtful (none / 0) (#140)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:47:46 PM EST
    Listen to what the Dems are saying and I think it's pretty clear that's not on the table . . .

    Parent
    Or better yet, Obama saying repeatedly (none / 0) (#144)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 01:49:43 PM EST
    he's going to p*ss off his party.

    Parent
    I think that speaks to the fact that (none / 0) (#154)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:03:16 PM EST
    his party is always pissed at him. No matter what he does it is not enough.  

    I can't think of one issue on which he didn't have some portion of the party angry at him.  DADT, ACA, DOMA, Taxes, etc.

    Clinton took the same road he's taken but received a fraction of the internal criticism from dems. It's really unprecedented at this point.

    Parent

    Are you serious (5.00 / 2) (#164)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:14:34 PM EST
    half the reason Obama won is that there is a loud contingent in the Democratic Party that hated Clinton's DLC/Third Way shtick.

    Parent
    I was speaking of his elected party. (none / 0) (#163)
    by nycstray on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:12:58 PM EST
    ya know, the ones expected to follow their party's "leader" . . .

    Parent
    I keep reading the transcript of O (none / 0) (#159)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:07:25 PM EST
    today and I am struck by the disconnect here.  This is a guy holding the beliefs many of us have about stimulus explaining clearly why he is doing what he is doing:

    "We are now in a situation where because the economy has moved slower than we wanted, because of the deficits and debt that result from the recession and the crisis, that taking a approach that costs trillions of dollars is not an option. We don't have that kind of money right now.
    What we can do is to solve this underlying debt and deficit problem for a long period of time so that then we can get back to having a conversation about, all right, since we now have solved this problem, that's not -- no longer what's hampering economic growth, that's not feeding business and uncertainty, everybody feels that the ground is stable under our feet, are there some strategies that we could pursue that would really focus on some targeted job growth -- infrastructure being a primary example.

    I mean, the infrastructure bank that we've proposed is relatively small. But could we imagine a project where we're rebuilding roads and bridges and ports and schools and broadband lines and smart grids, and taking all those construction workers and putting them to work right now? I can imagine a very aggressive program like that that I think the American people would rally around and would be good for the economy not just next year or the year after, but for the next 20 or 30 years.

    But we can't even have that conversation if people feel as if we don't have our fiscal house in order. So the idea here is let's act now. Let's get this problem off the table. And then with some firm footing, with a solid fiscal situation, we will then be in a position to make the kind of investments that I think are going to be necessary . . ."

    But that makes him a republican?

    That Obama quote? (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by Anne on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:20:19 PM EST
    Gigantic load of crap.  Maybe bigger than gigantic - ginormous.

    And I particularly just love the lack of agency: "the economy has moved slower?"  What, all by itself?  

    And the debt and the deficit were not then and are not now the problem, or even "a" problem; if they were, interest rates would be way higher, for one, but they're not.  

    Getting rid of the government's debt isn't going to magically grow jobs if there is no demand in the marketplace for goods and services; when my debt is high, I don't spend, but that's because I have finite places from which the money I do have comes - but the government?  It.  does.  not.  have.  that.  problem.

    It kills me that Obama is up at that podium just daydreaming about his imaginary infrastructure plans, and then has the audacity to lecture us about having to eat our peas.  Seriously?

    The only people who care about having our fiscal house in order are the people who have manufactured a crisis in order to accomplish things they have failed to do through actual leadership.

    It's not big, it's not bold: it's chickensh!t.

    Parent

    Your second to last paragraph is (none / 0) (#168)
    by observed on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:21:28 PM EST
    just nonsense. Why can't we have the conversation  about infrastructure now?
    That kind of spending would be great for the economy, and would get improve our finances.

    Parent
    that paragraph cuts to the (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by jeffinalabama on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:36:15 PM EST
    bait-and-switch... let's start a physical infrastructure bank, because, well, it's good, and gee, we need to do something.

    For 11 years, social infrastructure has gone down the toilet, and with federal and state cuts, will go further down the drain. a $50 Billion program to hire people to puck up trash on roadways, temporary workers, paid by the feds, with fed medical, would go a lot further to ending the issues we have than 'investing' in a nebulous 'bank.'

    When Obama mentions banks, I put my hand on my wallet, because his track record there leaves little to the imagination.

    Parent

    I don't understand (none / 0) (#169)
    by lilburro on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:21:50 PM EST
    what you heard today that is making you rally behind this attempt at a Grand Bargain.  

    An infrastructure bank is a good idea.  A liberal idea.  But how much is he going to spend on it?  Oh, $50 billion?  

    $2-3 trillion in cuts in order to get that is not a good idea.

    Parent

    Nope (none / 0) (#170)
    by TJBuff on Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 02:23:33 PM EST
    Makes him a loser.  Mostly because he's still depending on the conference fairy.

    Haven't you ever heard you have to spend money to make money?

    Parent