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Tuesday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 08:26:34 AM EST
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We'll post something interesting today.

Open thread.

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    Tuesday Morning Open Thread | 94 comments (94 topical)

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    Another great (hits head on desk} idea (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 09:37:30 AM EST
    from Ezra Klein. Let's make Obama's health insurance legislation work and move Medicare and Medicaid into the private insurance market.

    If Republicans can make their peace with the Affordable Care Act and help figure out how to make the Affordable Care Act's exchanges work to control costs and improve quality, it'd be natural to eventually migrate Medicaid and Medicare into the system. Liberals would like that because it'd mean better care for Medicaid beneficiaries and less fragmentation in the health-care system. Conservatives would like it because it'd break the two largest single-payer health-care systems in America and turn their beneficiaries into consumers. link

    No Ezra, this would definitely make the Masters of the Universe happy, but I join with digby to say that this is not the direction that would this liberal happy.

    BTW, could someone please come out in the media and forcefully say that Mr. Klein speaks for the Masters of the Universe and not for most liberals.

    I guess this lays to rest (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:15:51 AM EST
    once and for all the idea that Ezra Klein is any kind of liberal, because I don't know any liberals who would be made happy by privatizing Medicare/Medicaid.  And why does he care whether conservatives would be happy about it?  Oh, right - we're trying to find the sweet spot where the Big Money loves it so much more than everyone else hates it, regardless of whether it's actually good policy for the majority of the people affected by it.  Darn, I keep forgetting that that's what leadership looks like now.

    Ezra may be a nice young man, but it's becoming clear to me that what he doesn't know or understand far outweighs what he does, and it's working out quite well for the MOTU who need people like Ezra to drive the conventional wisdom to where it benefits them the most.

    Heckuva job, Ezra!

    Parent

    Leadership? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:22:55 PM EST
    It's been decades since we've produced leaders.

    We only produce managers.  These people are managing the status quo.

    This, IMO, is one of the many factors that keep us on the same path, plodding the same treadmill.

    Parent

    Bravo... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:48:02 PM EST
    We only produce managers.  These people are managing the status quo.

    I never heard or noticed our plight be put so succintly before...well done cal, nail on the head.

    Parent

    This harebrained scheme (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:44:56 AM EST
    could readily be dismissed but for the observation that Ezra Klein has rarely been accused of having an original idea.  The worrisome part is that Ezra is Charlie McCarthy to the administration's Edgar Bergen.  P.S. to Ezra: please use "some", or "a couple of" as a preface to your use of liberals (probably conservatives could say the same, but they have FOX to speak for them, liberals--well, I keep looking).

    Parent
    Geezuz. */%%rr&@*#// (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:36:24 PM EST
    So we're told, with massive evidence, that the nation's total health care costs are spinning out of control and Ezra thinks that putting Medicare (3% overhead) and Medicaid into the private insurance industry, consisting of big profit making organizations, with little interest in controlling costs (except denial of care) will solve that problem.  There was a time when I considered Ezra to be a very bright young man.  I was wrong.

    Inasmuch as securing treatment of Medicare patients is concerned there's no good reason why granting a license to practice medicine can't require the treatment of Medicaid and Medicare patients.  If lawyers can do pro bono the least that doctors can do is treat some patients at reduced fees. In this country, for years, we've bent over backwards to protect doctors' incomes. It's time we demand they be a part of the community, the WHOLE community.

    Parent

    Sure, if the exchanges work for (none / 0) (#14)
    by observed on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:49:05 AM EST
     ACA, bring them on over!!
    Don't worry about regulatory capture either.

    Parent
    Are you focused on his condition? (none / 0) (#20)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 11:42:11 AM EST
    "and help figure out how to make the Affordable Care Act's exchanges work to control costs and improve quality"

    That's what liberals want, right? If private exchanges can do that, why shouldn't we be OK with it?

    The point is not to hate the private markets just because they are private.  Liberals distrust private markets because they don't think they control costs or improve quality.

    We are concerned with the results, not the methods.  At least I thought we were.

    Parent

    Sure (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 11:53:28 AM EST
    But since we disagree with Ezra's view of the exchanges, then that is sort of beside the point.

    I actually would like to twist Ezra's words and say he is calling for Medicare to be an option in the exchanges.

    I'm pretty sure he does not mean that though.

    Parent

    Your objective and mine are not (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:00:35 PM EST
    the same.

    Many liberals would like to have a health care system that provides guaranteed universal health care in the most cost effective method available.

    If by some miracle Obama's health insurance legislation reduces insurance costs by 5%, we would still be paying at least twice as much for less coverage than other countries with better outcomes and 30% - 45% more for prescription drugs.

    Parent

    His definition of a liberal (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by sj on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:21:29 PM EST
    and mine (and likely yours, although I shouldn't presume) is a bit different.

    He's more like a Lanny Davis liberal.

    Parent

    Don't talk around me if you disagree (none / 0) (#27)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:27:11 PM EST
    just explain what your goals are.  My point is that if I can accomplish those goals in a private system, what's not liberal about that.

    Your counter could be that the goals could never be accomplished through a private system, and that's a fine answer.

    But that demonizes the result not the method.  I disagree with the focus on the method instead of the result.  Especially when the reality is that a private solution is plausible while a 100% government solution isn't politically.

    Parent

    You weren't the intended (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by sj on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:58:42 PM EST
    recipient of my point.  Why would I address it to you?  

    But since you ask, I was saying that simply declaring one is a liberal doesn't make it so.  One must see what is advocated.  

    It's actually a point I've made to you directly before.  

    You're entitled to your position.  I think it is ... misguided.  That's my position.  They don't have to be the same.  But privatizing the Common Good is not a liberal position and throwing the word in there won't make it so.

    Parent

    Let me state again (none / 0) (#76)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 07:57:11 PM EST
    Guaranteed good healthcare for all is the liberal position.

    Not how that goal is achieved.

    Parent

    I can agree (none / 0) (#83)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:52:56 PM EST
    with this goal.  I think the debate at this point is how we get there.  Realistically, the ACA isn't going anywhere either.  Introducing a Medicare buy-in within the exchange system is how I see it getting done.  Obviously at this point in time (which will surely pass, and then return...it's a battle) we have people like Ezra PIGGYBACKING ON REPUBLICAN TALKING POINTS!!! (which is why Ezra is annoying) and blithely suggesting that adding a private element to everything could work.  People on the left and right are both striving for simplicity to some degree (all private!  all public!) and that tendency is probably not going away.  Our apparent inability to successfully regulate any industry due to the flow of lobbyist cash isn't going anywhere either.  So...yeah.

    Parent
    I guess I just have to add (none / 0) (#84)
    by Amiss on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 12:33:11 AM EST
    that I do not want another "private system" run by another "Rick Scott" who somehow made it into the Florida Governor's chair. Thanks for the offer, but No Thanks.

    Parent
    Question (none / 0) (#26)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:25:04 PM EST
    If a system of private exchanges could be created which guarantee healthcare for all for a price that is limited to a percentage of income (or free for the poor), what would your issue be.

    Now obviously that's a big if, but if it were possible, why isn't that completely consistent with liberal principles. That's the swedish example we discuss often.

    Parent

    The reality is (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Towanda on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:42:00 PM EST
    as you say, that such a plan is not 100% politically possible.  And by your reasoning, then, discussion of this plan would not be worthwile.  Next idea?


    Parent
    Well, (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:45:19 PM EST
     simply because we've had enough of unspecific, pie-in-the sky candy from the last candyman we elected into the White House.

    The only way your utopian system would work is:

    A. The exchanges don't increase their prices

    AND

    B. The government guarantees that if they do, the subsidies would be increased, dollar for dollar, with the exchange increases.

    You wanna go back and work on it a little more?

    Parent

    The Swedish system has the second most (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:54:21 PM EST
    costly health care system with the second highest out of pocket expenses for actual health care.

    I, as a tax payer, do not want the government to shore up the overprice insurance, medical and pharmaceutical industries. The idea that the coverage would be "free" is ludicrous. It will not even be "free" to the poor as they will be required to sacrifice even more through cuts to domestic services to pay for ever increasing premiums and more out of pocket expenses.

    Having the government pay 2 to 3 times more for insurance (not care) than other countries pay for care, and 35% - 50% more for prescription drugs is not only stupid but will provide less health care.  

    Supporting a system that provides the less amount of care for the most amount of money so that everyone has little actual coverage goes way beyond stupid and I doubt it will find favor with the majority of people. Moving from a Medicare system that pays 80% of care to a higher cost system that only pay 60% of actual health care is beyond stupid unless you are one of the savvy businessmen who are going to profit in the millions each year from the overpriced private system. Supporting a system that provides the less amount of care for the most amount of money

    Parent

    I don't know about you, MOBlue, but (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:35:12 PM EST
    it seems to me that someone who wants to hold up a particular country's health system as a model for this country to follow ought to actually know something about that system, instead of just throwing it into the conversation to make others think there's some actual knowledge behind it; I have to think that the numbers you've cited aren't locked away in a password-protected, super-secret website and are available to anyone with internet search engines.

    As I look at comment after comment with links and information and all manner of analysis, I truly do not understand why so many here have to serve as the refernce desk for those who can't be bothered with the details.

    [And yes, ABG, I am looking at you]

    On the plus side, I guess it helps keep us all sharp and up-to-date with the latest information, but some days, I just get tired of feeling like we're being played.


    Parent

    Anne (none / 0) (#77)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 08:03:14 PM EST
    I understand the costs embedded in the Swedish system. I have read a great deal about the Swedish system and there is disagreement (among liberal economists) about its relative value.  I tend to ide with those who believe it works fairly well for two reasons

    The point that I think you are missing are two fold

    1. Regardless of costs, even the poorest are afforded good care. There are caps and subsidies which guaranty that everyone can afford coverage.  The cost concerns you reference are not relevant for the individual because he is required to pay what he can afford to pay.

    2. The cost increases in Sweden are smaller than ours and other systems.

    Please tell me Anne which of the two concepts above is an unsupportable.

    Parent
    Insurance (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Amiss on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 12:38:04 AM EST
    does NOT equal CARE. Plain and simple.

    Parent
    You're still really just talking about (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 01:12:30 PM EST
    guaranteed insurance, at some set price, not the actual care that the insurance is supposed to cover.

    And we all ought to know by now that insurance doesn't equal care.

    In order to guarantee some set level of actual care, there would have to be significant and stringent regulation - that insurance companies would fight tooth-and-nail against, while contriving more and more creative ways to justify saying "no."  And that regulation would have to be such that how much or what kind of care one could get did not become a function of what state one lives in.  

    I don't care whether you call a collection of insurance companies an "exchange," or you call it "Fred" or "Betty," you are still relying on an industry that has been more of a barrier to care than it has an aid, and there is no reason to believe that will change.

    Parent

    I understand the difference between insurance and (none / 0) (#78)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 08:05:39 PM EST
    healthcare coverage.

    A single payer system can have horrible healthcare coverage.  Do you diagree?

    Parent

    Well, let's just say that when someone (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Anne on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 07:20:32 AM EST
    tells me they know the difference between insurance and healthcare "coverage," and then proceeds to ask me if it's possible for a single payer system to have horrible healthcare "coverage," I would have to say that no, I don't believe you really do understand the difference.

    "Coverage" is an insurance-related word, denoting what an insurance company determines it will pay for in accordance with the premiums paid to it by or on behalf of the person who is receiving the care, and has nothing to do with the actual care being delivered.

    Did you mean to say that a single-payer system can limit the amount of care one is entitled to?  Well, no kidding, but for the love of God, look around you - look at where the other developed nations that have some form of single-payer rank in any number of areas that are related to health care - infant mortality, life expectancy, overall health.  Look at the bang the people of these countries are getting for their buck - paying less, getting more and healthier in the bargain.

    It can be done, it has been done and if the country that claims to be so exceptional can't figure this out, I guess it is exceptional - exceptionally stupid, that is.

    Parent

    yeah, you know (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 08:37:19 PM EST
    that's what's so damn frustrating about this whole so called debate. It's not like we're discussing Bernoulli's theory of aerodynamics, or the physics of string theory, for god's sake.

    We're bouncing around like lunatics blubbering Mensa-like comments such as, "Dis is really complicated stuff," or "it took a looong time to get here, it'll take a looong time to fix it."

    BULL!!

    While we're giving the finger to the sky, deluding ourselves about this idiotic nonsense about the oxymoron, "American exceptionalism," the rest of the world is politely averting their eyes from us and whispering quietly to each other, "What's happened to America? Sure is a pity."

    The answers are all around us; just blindfold the President and let him throw a dart against a wall listing all the civilized countries' health plans. No matter which he hits it'll be head and shoulders better than anything we have, or will have.

    Idiots! there's just no other word for us.

    Parent

    Got a point there. (none / 0) (#86)
    by Amiss on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 12:41:46 AM EST
    n/t

    Parent
    There is so much misinformation .... (none / 0) (#58)
    by samsguy18 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:27:40 PM EST
    Medicare is a cost centered program....This type of program could be implemented. The insurance companies...pharma....for profit private medicine and hospitals..... even the AMA whose CPT codes bring the association a huge amt of money all have a vested interest and don't want the system to change. To your point Anne these exchanges will just be a substitute for medicaid ! Any expansion of Medicaid/Exchanges means less quality healthcare for those sentenced to these plans.

    Parent
    Seems like Ezra (none / 0) (#40)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 01:51:03 PM EST
    is floating a proffer, on behalf of an unnamed sponsor:  Republicans, call off the dogs on the administration's grand health insurance legacy, and, in turn, you can have your way with Medicaid and Medicare.

    Parent
    Took mom to another (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 09:58:01 AM EST
    doctor's appointment yesterday. Then indulged myself in a tasty but ABSOLUTELY unhealthy treat... a little local store, Mrs. Story's Dairy Bar, an independent that's been around since before I was, had two foot long chili dogs for $5.79.

    And before you ask, yes, I did eat both!Mmmmmmmmmmm.

    You go Dude... (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:24:47 AM EST
    When I heard the Japanese were making food out of sh*t, my first thought was someone invented the hot dog already:)

    Rocked a footlong myself at beautiful Belmont Park on Sunday...only winner I had all day!

    Parent

    You deserve (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:37:55 AM EST
    it! You've been through a lot lately and you should indulge every now and then. It's good for the soul.

    Parent
    Recipes: Can someone point (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:51:40 AM EST
    me toward a good pork schnitzel recipe? No veal available, but schweinfleich is just as good to me. Thinking Mom needs a schnitzel today (or maybe fattyboy Jeff just wants one).

    Simple..... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:55:34 PM EST
    (Yeah, "Mom," right)

    Get any pork loin, the cheaper the better. Cut slices, kind of the size of a large t-bone steak. Put a slice into one of those one gallon freezer bags, take it into your shop and smack it a few times with a mallet until its really thin, but not so it breaks through. Then, just like any fried, chicken, chop, etc, soak in egg wash, dip in flour, soak again, dip again in seasoned bread crumbs. Slap it on a hot, oiled  grille; a few seconds on each side, and stuff your face with both hands, baby!


    Parent

    You're a good man Shooter... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 01:58:31 PM EST
    but thats a breaded pork loin recipe...if it ain't veal, it ain't wiener schnitzel....my boy Jeff is talkin' schnitzel blasphemy.

    Why no veal Jeff?  Moral objection to baby calf eats or availability or price or simple taste?  Inquiring veal enthusiasts wanna know!  

    Parent

    I hear you, Kman (none / 0) (#47)
    by NYShooter on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 02:17:59 PM EST
    I grew up on wiener schnitzel! From Stalingrad, to salzburg, to Lintz, and to Hamburg

    Then to the Bronx.

    But the Man said Pork, and so's I give the Man Pork.

    And you know what? A six-pak, couple ears of butter drenched corns, and fried schnizel on some Bronx Bread.....Man! May not be heaven, but sittin on its doorstep ain't too shabby neither.

    Parent

    No good veal in town. (none / 0) (#48)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 02:23:00 PM EST
    But there are various schnitzels... veal, pork, even chicken or turkey (ducks head).

    It's the mushroom gravy that sets it off. jaegerschnitzel is made with pork or veal.

    Parent

    I hear ya... (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:08:25 PM EST
    good veal is harder to find than good hash...I will not order it or buy it just anywhere, ya need a veal track record before I lay my money down.

    Parent
    I can't get (none / 0) (#57)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:21:34 PM EST
    good veal around here, either.  I miss San Francisco and New York- we could get all kinds of nice cuts of veal, in both places.  All different cuts of lamb, as well.  Hey, what can I say?  We eat baby animals.   ;-)

    Parent
    The hood of my 'birth... (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 02:31:55 PM EST
    College Point Queens was a German immigrant enclave...Flessel's (est. 1870's) was the best German joint in town, and I always rocked the Schnitzel without fail.

    It was a sad day in the Point when Flessel's closed in '98...all things must pass.

     

    Parent

    It may be blasphemy in Austria, (none / 0) (#51)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 02:51:57 PM EST
    But we ate a lot of pork schnitzel when we were in Bavaria.   ;-)

    Parent
    Mom and Arnold both (none / 0) (#65)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 04:36:43 PM EST
    Arnold Schwarzenegger misses Austria -- and schnitzel
    In Vienna for an environment conference, the former governor of California began his speech Tuesday in German instead of English. And he focused not on green themes but on the familiar things he misses in California -- "the music of Mozart," or "a juicy wiener schnitzel."


    Parent
    There are a couple Mozart festivals in CA. (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 04:47:04 PM EST
    San Diego and San Luis Obispo, off the top of my head.

    Parent
    To be fair (none / 0) (#68)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 05:12:10 PM EST
    he was talking about positive memories awakened by being back in Wien:
    "Vor allem heute früh sind in mir so viele positive Erinnerungen erwacht. Der herrliche Kaffee, die Musik von Mozart, der Kaiserschmarrn, Wiener Schnitzel - da läuft mir das Wasser im Mund zusammen."
    The wonderful coffee, Mozart's music, Kaiserschmarrn, and Wiener Schnitzel. It all makes his mouth water. :)

    Parent
    Mine too. (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 06:01:53 PM EST


    Parent
    how about (none / 0) (#73)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 06:22:54 PM EST
    schnitzel festivals?

    Parent
    Ha. See Central Coast Renaissance (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:14:31 PM EST
    Festival and beer festival in Claremont.

    Parent
    Politifact claims Jon Stewart told a falsehood (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Farmboy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:39:31 PM EST
    when he said Fox viewers are consistently the most misinformed regarding their news. Who would have though that Ailes' folks have been accurately informing their viewers all this time.

    So Saddam was behind 9/11? There were WMDs in Iraq? Katrina was God's punishment for gays? Obama was born in Kenya? Income taxes are the highest in US history? There are secret death panels for old people? Bin Laden is still alive? Paul Revere did warn the British not to take our guns?

    I'm glad that's been cleared up. Thanks, Politiifact, for showing us who is really fair and balanced.

    Stewart responds to Politifact ... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 10:36:09 AM EST
    ... and rips Fox News in the process.

    It's a good segment.

    Parent

    Help me God (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 02:52:52 PM EST
    Someone I know is on the board of directors of the homeowners assoc that functions in our subdivision now.  During a local economic downturn and due to infighting, before we bought the house it became legally optional for homeowners who bought in the subdivision to belong to the HOA.  When we first moved into the neighborhood we payed our dues for two years, and I went to the meetings, and came away understanding that some people only live to inflict a$$holism on others, they feed on it and it keeps them warm at night or something.  So I told my husband I was done.  I don't want to be under the rule of these people.  It was only a matter of time before I ticked off someone and they started gunning for us and as long as I pay my dues I'm under their rule.  So I stopped paying dues, but now that we had a friend working on the board I started feeling guilty about not participating and was sort of thinking about adding some funds to the kitty and becoming a member again.  I decided to google the HOA today when I was thinking about this and I found their facebook page.

    Not much there, there was a very tiny discussion about snakes.....hardly any particpation at all so I'm thinking they are all mostly A-holes still. It takes forever for some well healed A-hole to cough up the ghost and sell his house to someone nice.

    I click on the only other discussion going on and on the clean up day they found a water bong made out of a plastic powerade bottle in one of the ditches.  Under the photos is the description about how shocking this was for the clean up crews.  They took several photos of it and there is also instructions that if you come across something that looks like this don't touch it and call the police and the homeowners assoc immediately.

    These "shocked" people are the same people who made it illegal for the city police to patrol our neighborhood.  I'm neutral about that, I'm good with it, we have our dogs that discourage break ins and it is sort of nice not having a bunch of cops all over my neighborhood.  But my daughter went to high school here, so I knew long ago that the teenagers drive around this place and get high sometimes.  The speed limit is 25 and it is pretty hard to drive faster because of the design of the streets.  I don't care if the kids get stoned here.  I really don't.  These freaky insane crazy moneyed Christians around here are losing their minds though because someone found a homemade bong in one of the miles of ditches in here though?  I won't be joining them.  They will receive no dues from me.  Get a phucking real life people.

    I'll try and top it (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:17:48 PM EST
    My HOA sent out notices that fences needed to be painted. My fence  is completely hidden by 8 foot wide and 10 foot high cocoplum bushes. I contacted them and said my fence isn't visible but they said it still needed to be done for aesthetic purposes. My argument that there is no aesthetic need to paint something that no one can see obviously fell on deaf ears because one day they came out and cut a three foot wide path the length of the fence to be able to get to it and paint the fence, and sent me a bill for $135.

    Although they finally admitted mine perhaps was never on the list to be painted, the battle has now lasted two years with their final ruling being that since they painted it I had to pay, even if they may have painted the wrong fence to start with. Threatened with a lien, I've finally conceded defeat which irks me no end that I wasn't willing to battle it out in court too.

    In the meantime, the bushes have completely grown back, once again blocking everyone's view so no one can tell if it's ever been painted or not.

    When I retire I think I'll just make it my goal in life to be a thorn in their side for my daily cheap thrill.

    Parent

    working in the development arena (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by CST on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 10:32:48 AM EST
    I often have to go to these lovely things called public hearings.  For anyone who is involved in the public process, or who has ever seen parks and recreation - it's the thing where a developer or whomever has to go in front of a local planning board and defend their project to a bunch of angry locals, but locals also go to bring up their own issues with the town.  The public hearings are technically open to everyone, but in my experience, it's only the people who hate you that ever show up.  If someone likes what you're doing, you're never gonna hear from them.

    Anyway, my point to all this is that in going to these meetings around the state, you really start to get a feel for the character of different cities and towns, based on the agenda items, and the interactions with town members and local planning board members.  For example, in one town meeting, the first angry resident got up there to complain about all the murders and why aren't the cops doing anything about the drug problems in town, and how can the city fix this so kids stop dying.  In another town, the first item on the agenda was a proposal to replace all the flags on all the public buildings because the existing ones were looking kind of dingy and that's such a disgrace.

    Your homeowners association sounds a lot like the second kind of town.  I'm not gonna lie, I have a hard time keeping a straight face in some of those meetings.  Get a life people.

    Parent

    Good for You! (none / 0) (#87)
    by Amiss on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 12:49:30 AM EST


    Parent
    Hey EVERYONE!!!!!!!! (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 07:34:19 PM EST
    My husband got his implementation training for the lifting of DADT today!  It is beginning to happen now.

    That is awesome. n/t (none / 0) (#80)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 09:38:48 PM EST


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    Finding out things that don't sound so good though (none / 0) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:31:34 PM EST
    They are saying that sexual preferences aren't equal opportunity issues or something like that, anyhow you can't claim that someone discriminated against you because you are gay in the military or something like that.  I'm not sure I really understand what that is about.  I will try to find out more information.  Chaplains can refuse to counsel you if it would violate their faith in some way but they are obliged to find you one that will?  Is this subject to availability or something.  That's sort of jacked up too.  But the Muslim worship center is functional now on Fort Rucker and it is near the O-club I'm told.

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    The chaplain stuff (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by lilburro on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 08:05:44 AM EST
    I heard about before...but not the suggestion that there won't be equal opportunity.  Keep us updated!  How long do you or your husband think it's going to be before people start coming out, etc...what do you think that process will be like?

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    They are safe to come out now (none / 0) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 09:05:21 AM EST
    here.  I don't know if implementation has moved to the war zone yet.  It must have because we will have people deploying who have been living in areas where implementation has begun.  You can't spin backwards.  The military is an extremely competitive environment if you are an officer....or even in some enlisted MOSs like special forces, the thing about being discriminated against and having no recourse will slow down people coming out I think.  I was disappointed in hearing how some people took to the training.  I guess one religious person was telling everyone that this is the only time that the military has gone "against" biblical teachings.  I know some people will have to soothe themselves or whatever, but I don't know what magic Bible they are talking about because one of the 10 commandments is "Thou shalt not kill".  It doesn't even say "Thou shalt not kill except in instances of self defense".  I'm sure that during the early implementation I will feel like I've had to bite my tongue so hard I should have bitten it off.

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    Interesting (none / 0) (#93)
    by lilburro on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 09:11:15 AM EST
    I didn't actually know people were safe to come out yet, anywhere.  But yeah, I agree, unless its equal opportunity there are going to be problems.  Why would you come out if you thought it would hurt your career?  Esp. in the military.  If I think being gay hurts my job prospects at a company here, I am at lesat free to go!

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    When they do policy trainups like this (none / 0) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 12:31:09 PM EST
    When you leave the training...the policy is now in affect.  So...on Fort Rucker, you are no longer under DADT.

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    Gunwalker summary (none / 0) (#1)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 08:30:51 AM EST

    This link has a summary of the gunwalker scandal and the 90% lie.

    Paranoid Much ? (none / 0) (#2)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 09:03:49 AM EST
    What a hack piece by a hack website.

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    His conclusions are questionable (none / 0) (#4)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 09:42:29 AM EST

    The fact of the 90% lie is not.  Perhaps you have a better explanation as to why the 90% lie was used, or why the feds allowed straw purchased guns to cross the border.

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    No problem (none / 0) (#16)
    by Yman on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:51:31 AM EST
    To be accurate, anyone quoting the 90% figure should qualify the statement based on the fact this figure is based on guns submitted to the ATF for tracing.  This sample may or may not be an accurate sample of all guns "recovered in Mexico".  To be 100% accurate, a pol should say (as William Newell, ATF special agent testified):

    "In fact, 90 percent of the firearms recovered in Mexico, and which are then successfully traced, were determined to have originated from various sources within the continental U.S."

    All better?

    The link to "Pajamas Media" is funny, though.

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    Not all better. (none / 0) (#38)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 01:09:28 PM EST

    If you included the fact that only about 3% of the guns seized were sent for tracing, and that the Mexicans had no reason to send any of the 97% that were known not to have a US origin, then it would be OK.  

    Implying the set sent for tracing was a random sample appears to have no factual support.  For example, there would be no point is sending a Chinese hand grenade, or a Belgian rifle purchased by the Mexican government and later stolen from an armory.

    What matters from a public policy perspective not the percentage sent for tracing, but rather the single digit percent used in crime.  

    A statement that is technically true is still a lie if its purpose is to deceive.  Hiding the fact that the statistic was in relation to a non-random tiny subset makes the lie.

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    BS (none / 0) (#91)
    by Yman on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 08:07:53 AM EST
    If you included the fact that only about 3% of the guns seized were sent for tracing, and that the Mexicans had no reason to send any of the 97% that were known not to have a US origin, then it would be OK.

    97% of the guns "were known not to have a US origin"?  Based on what?  That's just a ridiculous claim, with absolutely zero evidence.  Beyond that, you're suggesting that the Mexicans only sent guns for tracing that they had reason to believe came from the US in the first place. This is, of course, not true:

    ATF officials challenge the suggestion that Mexico only sends them guns they suspect are from the United States. In fact, the ATF found about a quarter of the 90 percent were made in other countries and then taken illegally from the United States into Mexico....

    Alberto Islas, a security consultant with Risk Evaluation in Mexico City, said the 90 percent figure is based on an incomplete sample. Mexican officials only require ATF traces of guns used in "high-impact crimes," he said. That certainly includes crimes involving violent drug cartels. That's the sample from which the ATF derives its 90 percent statistic. Driving up that percentage, Islas said, is the fact that nearly all of the handguns traced by ATF come from the United States, Islas said, while assault weapons are more of a mixed bag -- some come from the United States, but others come through drug routes in Eastern Europe, Africa and elsewhere.

    Implying the set sent for tracing was a random sample appears to have no factual support.  For example, there would be no point is sending a Chinese hand grenade, or a Belgian rifle purchased by the Mexican government and later stolen from an armory.

    Good thing no one implied it, then.

    What matters from a public policy perspective not the percentage sent for tracing, but rather the single digit percent used in crime.

    Good to hear that's your opinion.  Others disagree.

    A statement that is technically true is still a lie if its purpose is to deceive.

    You mean like suggesting that "Mexicans had no reason to send any of the 97% that were known not to have a US origin"?

    I absolutely agree.  Of course, that statement isn't even "technically true", since it's just made up.

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    But it was (none / 0) (#97)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 11:17:25 PM EST
     
     
    Implying the set sent for tracing was a random sample appears to have no factual support.  For example, there would be no point is sending a Chinese hand grenade, or a Belgian rifle purchased by the Mexican government and later stolen from an armory.

    Good thing no one implied it, then.

    The administrations statements implied the 90% had some relevance to the total rather that a selected subset.  Indeed, there is no apparent reason that the administration would comment on the Mexicans subset selection criteria.  Did you actually think the administration was commenting on how the Mexicans chose to select the subset?

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    Should have been clearer (none / 0) (#98)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 23, 2011 at 08:35:17 AM EST
    I thought you were suggesting that I was implying that the guns sent for tracing were a "random sample".  As I said, if the administration wants to be entirely accurate, they should qualify their statement to reflect that it's only 90% of the guns traced by the ATF.

    Then again, someone who claims that the "the Mexicans had no reason to send any of the 97% that were known not to have a US origin" probably shouldn't be complaining about the accuracy or quality of evidence to support the administration's statements, let alone what they think the administration is "implying".

    Glass houses, and what not ...

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    Ohhhhh, I see, Only the Conculsions... (none / 0) (#33)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 12:50:57 PM EST
    ... are questionable, not the entire load of stank.

    I got through about five paragraphs before I had to stop.  No offense, but this 'massive' drive for tougher gun laws falls short because.... not one significant change has been made in a decade concerning restricting gun ownership.

    Which tells me the writer of the article is a gun loving lunatic who sees every action involving guns as some grand conspiracy to get his gunz.  

    So again I will restate my original thought, 'Paranoid Much ?'

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    The adversary of our adversary... (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 09:50:18 AM EST
    is our friend...Gov. Rick Perry pushes the Texas TSA Anti-Groping Bill forward, in defiance of the DOJ/DHS/TSA and other acronyms for indignity.

    Should help his presidential chances in the Brand R race...people across the political spectrum really hate this TSA bullsh*t.  Give 'em hell Texas.

    Kdog, (none / 0) (#6)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 09:54:42 AM EST
    you ought to read some of the quotes from Alabama GOP'ers in a trial going on here... for example, the folks in Greene County (95 percent african american) called 'aborigines' in a recording by an elected Gooper...

    Perry's move THIS time might be good, but he's an idiot of the first rank. He's scary idiotic. I think this goes in the file of "a broken clock is right twice a day" file ;-)

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    No doubt... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:08:46 AM EST
    Perry is bad news, but who ain't in this game?  I'll take a little kinship for personal liberty and human dignity where I can get it...it is so hard to find.

    Pardon me if I don't look into your local yokel Goopers...I've heard enough tyvm:(

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    It's a federal case, (none / 0) (#11)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:31:23 AM EST
    Kdog, and I think it's part of the old Rove Hit Team, Leura Canary is STILL Alabama's US Attorney.

    Just check this story.

    Kind of surprised this one hasn't made national news...

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    You'd think the racist Jim Crow... (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 10:50:00 AM EST
    angle would be in the news at the very least...wow, it is 2011 right?  

    Vote buying...not so much.  S.O.P. in the best democracy money can buy...in cash or in favors.

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    He's Born Again Republican... (none / 0) (#43)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 02:00:09 PM EST
    ... who used to be a democrat.

    He was fine until the entire party took a hard right over Iraq.

    I have a feeling I will get groped regardless of what Texas does, not sure how they intend to enforce a law upon federal employees on federal land doing federally mandated processes.

    I just don't see Troopers, the Sheriff's dept, or HPD going to the airport and arresting the people groping me or anyone else.

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    Probably right.... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 02:16:02 PM EST
    see Jeralyn's posts on Aspen v. DEA...feds win everytime when they wish to infringe on personal liberty and a state/locality balks.

    I'm just glad somebody in power is making a mini-stink about the TSA and their shenanigans that do everything but keep us "safe".

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    Jeff (none / 0) (#54)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 02:54:56 PM EST
    The "bingo trial" is amazing to follow. It's beginning to read like a mini version of The Pelican Briefs with how deep the corruption goes...just no murders yet (I don't think)

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    And former Governor Bob (none / 0) (#69)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 05:12:34 PM EST
    Riley is on a motorcycle trip and can't be 'inconvenienced' to testify...

    It just gets better and better.

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    And (none / 0) (#70)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 05:33:32 PM EST
    it even manages to extend all the way to family court, leading to a judicial resignation, where half of a judge's campaign contributions trace back to the grandfather in a custody case (where she refused to recuse herself)....the same man that is the main fixture in the bingo trial.

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    Summer Concert Series... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 11:27:36 AM EST
    continues...the eclectic latin/rock/hip-hop stylings of Ozomatli gratis in Crooklyn manana...and June 29th a real monster, living legends Garth Hudson, Al Kooper and others bring us Organ-asm at BB's...especially stoked to hear virtuoso Garth live, ya couldn't call it an organ-asm without Garth Hudson:)

    You snooze you lose NYC area!

    mmm (none / 0) (#19)
    by sj on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 11:41:17 AM EST
    love Ozomatli.  They put on a great show, too.

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    The hits keep on comin' sj... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 11:59:53 AM EST
    I love the summertime...I haven't seen Ozomatli in over a decade, looking forward to reacquainting myself and getting my gringo hips movin':)


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    The Reapers are coming! (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 01:05:33 PM EST
    Reaper Drones take flight over upstate NY this summer...major bummer.

    Talk about unreasonable search...and local John Law will get the surveillance data if the drones see anything illegal from high altitude.  

    Thanks a lot Chuckie Schumer for working to open up our airspace for the tyranny machines...send a naughty picture to somebody and resign, will ya?  Pretty please?

    It is also legal to own a 50 cal sniper rifle (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 02:54:37 PM EST
    kdog, with some good cover I call this target practice :)

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    Only love can conquer hate... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:28:16 PM EST
    but very tempting:)

    If I see one camping this summer I'll just give the Reaper a one-finger salute, maybe a half moon...same for Schumer if I see him:)

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    There are many kinds of love kdog :) (none / 0) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:34:35 PM EST


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    True... (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:38:21 PM EST
    but you know me by now...a big softie fond of unconditional surrender, undercover freedom on the sly...all bark no bite.  Moms raised a lover, not a fighter.

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    I thought you were a rebel? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 03:54:36 PM EST
    I have an inner rebel that sits on my other shoulder :)  I allow her to speak during my inner debates :)

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    Rebellious thoughts a plenty.... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 04:01:16 PM EST
    Rebellious acts?  Strictly on the down low...handcuffs hurt.

    I got my old man's worldview, and my moms temperament...its a good fit, keeps my outta trouble.

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    Kdog, you're a true (none / 0) (#66)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 04:37:39 PM EST
    reinvention of a 60's hippie.  ;-)

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    My whole downstairs (none / 0) (#72)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 06:03:44 PM EST
    smells like Greek oregano (not that I'm complaining).  It reseeded itself from last year and is just about taking over the garden, so I cut a huge bunch, that I am going to dry.  I think I'm going to wind up with a whole lot of oregano, much of which (that we don't eat fresh), I will dry and make up packets to give away for Christmas.

    Sounds delicious (none / 0) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 21, 2011 at 07:34:37 PM EST


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    Thanks (none / 0) (#88)
    by Amiss on Wed Jun 22, 2011 at 01:01:07 AM EST
    for the laugh.

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    Tuesday Morning Open Thread | 94 comments (94 topical)

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