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Wednesday Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Wed May 04, 2011 at 09:57:42 PM EST
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Survivor, American Idol, and Justified tonight. A welcome break from the continuing contradictions in the retelling of the death of Osama bin Laden.

I'm sure there's also other news. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

< MSNBC: Only One Person Armed at Osama bin Laden Compound | Torture Does Not Work: Part 3 >

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    Wednesday Night Open Thread | 104 comments (104 topical)

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    I glad to see a shift in focus (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by thereyougo on Wed May 04, 2011 at 10:43:05 PM EST
    Am I the only one? I don't see this as a win(OBL death), I am cringing at what is to come of this country now.

    I do not rejoice.

    If the event that is being celebrated meant the US will leave the MIddle East, I'll be happy, but it doesn't mean that. It means the opposite IMO.

    That means we'll continue to have huge debt caused by the military that will sink the value of our currency further.

    Forecast: cloudy

    The pro-torture talking point.... (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:00:36 AM EST
    I heard this morning...."ya can't waterboard but you can shoot in the head?"

    The scary part is its a valid point...an official assasination policy is just as shameful as a torture policy.

    God forbid if it's true he was unarmed...if ya got to be cold-blooded killers to catch a cold-blooded killer what the hell is the point.

    You come to kill my innocent civilians (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:49:12 AM EST
    and declare terroist war against me, I will do everything in my power to kill you before you can hurt anyone else. And I am good with this.

    Parent
    And the next assasination target? (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:56:24 AM EST
    If we keep doing it, it is inevitable we will assasinate an innocent goat herder at some point...plus all the collateral damage that will pile up.  In this case there is a 12 year old girl injured and insanely traumatized...everybody is cool with that?  Isn't that what the likes of Osama does?

    How far we gonna go with this?  Remember this is a perpetual never-ending "war".  Should we have a pool to pick the day we lose the last of our collective soul?

    Parent

    I will not let crazy fears (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:00:21 AM EST
    give me anxiety attacks that prevent me from protecting the innocent in the jungle that the real world often really is.  I spent a great deal of my life trying to work a lot of this stuff out, because I am a peace loving person.  Becoming a mother straightened it all out for me :)  I'm dangerous if you come for my innocent.  And I think it is okay if the world knows this.

    Parent
    You've just summarized the argument (none / 0) (#37)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:09:16 AM EST
    against the Predator drone strikes, MT, whether you know it or not:

    LAHORE: Afghanistan-based US predators carried out a record number of 12 deadly missile strikes in the tribal areas of Pakistan in January 2010, of which 10 went wrong and failed to hit their targets, killing 123 innocent Pakistanis. The remaining two successful drone strikes killed three al-Qaeda leaders, wanted by the Americans.

    Click or Global Research Me.

    Parent

    I don't like drone strikes either (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:12:00 AM EST
    I like intel and I like being able to go get them, but Pakistan is reluctant to allow it.  The Biden plan that is a small footprint in Afghanistan is nothing but drone strikes to contain elements of terrorism and I think it is a horrible inhumane plan and I've never argued for it.  I always argue against it.

    Parent
    I will say this... (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:37:57 AM EST
    if you're gonna do it, the Osama hit is a much preferable tactic than a drone or guided missile strike...less chance of a mistake, less collateral damage.

    Credit where its due...this was better than firing up the drones, no doubt about that.  A drone woulda killed that little girl indisciminately.

    Parent

    Trying not to be or become the bad guy.... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:12:03 AM EST
    is a crazy fear?  I'd call it a legitimate concern.

    It's gotta remain a place worth fighting for and protecting Tracy, or again what is the point?

    Parent

    I'm Buddhist (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:14:53 AM EST
    And sometimes doing the right thing means that someone will call you a bad guy doing it.  I'm good with that.  Call me what you will.  The next earthquake that destroys everything and only military troops can get in to feed the innocent, as Tony Montana says, "You gonna love me again".

    Parent
    Please don't take it personal... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:34:47 AM EST
    I'm not talking about the average military family...I'm talking about those that give them shady orders, and those that make millions off their backs when they're sent in harm's way occupying foreign lands, making future enemies.

    Parent
    This is not the same military that served Bush (none / 0) (#68)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:13:54 AM EST
    though kdog.  At the start of the Iraq War I feel that corruption of funds and reasons and everything heinous and evil about our bloated military industrial complex was just rampant.  I wanted so far away from all those people too.  They are disgusting.  And it literally destroyed our military too.  Some leaders rose out of all that horror though, realized that we had to restore integrity and worked so hard to do so, and these people are who work for this President.  We still have a job, there are still big problems out there and the piggy bank is broken now too.  We are getting down to what we are all really made of and what the truths and needs are because we can afford precious little else now.

    Parent
    A look at our past assassination targets (none / 0) (#47)
    by Towanda on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:22:30 AM EST
    ought to be a sufficient lesson to know that there will be payback.  There always has been before, and we still are having to deal with the detritus.

    Parent
    Come on Kdog (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:36:43 AM EST
    you have never been in a situation like the Seals were. So you don't know the stress. And since you weren't there you don't know what happened.

    And calling them cold-blooded killers is beneath you. I really thought better of you.

    Parent

    I wasn't talking about the Seals... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:50:33 AM EST
    I was talking about the president who gave the order to assasinate.

    No doubt I have no clue what happened...nobody but the Seals and the people in the house really know...plus what the admin. saw on the video feed.  

    The Seal Team should get to split the 25 million reward as far as I'm concerned...they did their job and followed orders.

    Parent

    I am so thankful that my President (5.00 / 4) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:55:39 AM EST
    gave the orders that he did.  This man was a mass murderer who had a network of people that he incited and believe what he believes, and they have murdered so many innocent people all over the world.  He knew what it would take to be taken alive and he made a different choice.  He always said he would never be taken alive too.  I thank God my President gave orders that didn't allow him to take even one more life.  He had taken enough.

    Parent
    I agree (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:09:28 AM EST
    Except I haven't the slightest as to what he has "taken."

    Parent
    I woulda closed the bases... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:17:25 AM EST
    and pulled our troops back to our shores first...see if that worked.  Then get to mixing it up in the muck with the dirty souls, if the dirty souls did not relent.

    I mean who drew first blood?  Are you 100% sure it was Osama's henchmen?  I'm not...we've been f*ckin' with that part of the world for over 50 years.  

    And if there is any chance for this blood-feud to end, one guy has gotta step up and say no mas.  I'd like that stand up guy to be us.

    Parent

    Ignoring things hadn't worked so far (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:23:40 AM EST
    9/11 isn't the first job these guys pulled either, it tipped the scales though...as things in the universe are inclined to do.  If you think that removing your troops from every other country in the world and bringing them home would have quieted these terrorists, I think you are crazy as hell kdog.  They love power, they thrive on it, they are crazy for it.  All they have ever done is find new reasons to justify it and they would have just dreamed up more newer reasons to hate and kill.  You would only be feeding egos and they would have gotten even worse.

    Parent
    I don't know... (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:31:21 AM EST
    I've read America had fine relations with the Arab world up until post-WWII, when we decided to build an empire, prop up dictators, bankroll a country created out of thin air in the ME that should have been created in Germany.  We've brewed a lot of bad blood, and our adversaries have brewed here too in kind.

    Dismantling the empire is worth a shot...as it doesn't require a shot to be fired that might hit a 12 year old girl.  I'm not saying throw the aircraft carriers and nukes away just yet...we can always roll 'em back out if giving peace a chance backfires.

    Parent

    So many blanket generalizations kdog (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:45:11 AM EST
    The Arab world is as varied as this American life is. And certain players get along with certain players and certain players don't.  If only a blanket generalization could contain the truth of any large group of human beings.

    Parent
    Of course... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:03:09 AM EST
    Seems our greedy money/power hungry's and their's are making life harder for all of us:)

    We have more angry players than ever over there though...could our actions have something to do with that?  Part of it their crooks playing them, saying we're the problem...just like our crooks do.  But part of it, a big part, is our foreign policy and empire building.

    Assasinating every doucheb*g with a turban is one way to go...or we can try and get our doucheb*gs in line first.  Get thy own house in order, or something like that.

    Parent

    He wasn't just some doucheb*g with a turbin (none / 0) (#81)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:45:19 AM EST
    though.  I don't even think he wore turbins very often did he?  I've only seen him in one a couple of times.

    And I'm not saying his evil ever negated the other things we need to stand up to and take care of either.  I am taking some time to absorb this though because I need to.  This doucheb*g had a deeper life altering meaning for me than any other doucheb*g ever has in my life:)

    Parent

    I think it is time to revisit what OBL (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:46:12 AM EST
    said to CNN's Peter Arnett in this March 1997.

    REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ?

    BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

    So you are going to have to decide what is meant by "aggressive intervention."

    Based on the riots, etc., every time someone draws a cartoon of Mohammed or threatens to burn a Koran or some other "insult" I would say it means doing anything that they don't want done.


    Parent

    Aggressive intervention was anything (none / 0) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:52:01 AM EST
    he didn't like that ANYONE did.  And he was so racist, intolerant, and abusive he does not get to set any of the parameters that I live by because I'm a sane human being and will be staying that way.

    Parent
    Last time I checked (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:33:55 AM EST
    we had no colonies in the ME.

    And OBL admitted to 9/11.

    The issue remains. Shall we be Wilsonian Democrats or shall we be isolationistic Republicans?

    Of course that was 1940. Has the wheel turned 180 degrees?  

    Parent

    He said he wanted us to leave Saudi Arabia (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:48:12 AM EST
    and we do have some American troops there.  If it would have worked Jim I really don't give one chit about doing it.  Let us do it then.  But he would not agree that if we did that he would be done with us either.  He was going to see how he felt then :)  He was a classic lying egomaniac abuser.

    Parent
    We did pull a lot of troops out of (none / 0) (#63)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:56:41 AM EST
    KSA after 9/11, but I'm sure that was just a coincidence.

    Parent
    I don't think we did it to please him (none / 0) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:04:37 AM EST
    I think we did it because we did not feel like we could keep them safe, and if they were attacked the Bush Administration did not even want to have to go there and explain any of that or deal with any of that.  The Saudi royal family is almost their family :)  Americans would have flipped out if our troops were attacked in Saudi Arabia, and then what would the Bush Administration have done?  What would the Saudi royal family have done?  Better to avoid anything like that happening.  And now rich Arabs hire Blackwater to be their body guards.

    Parent
    It doesn't matter why we did it (none / 0) (#74)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:25:22 AM EST
    that it happened at all looks like OBL got what he wanted.


    Parent
    Yes, there has been blood-lust throughout (none / 0) (#96)
    by christinep on Thu May 05, 2011 at 05:02:35 PM EST
    the world throughout time. But, kdog, you go to far in appearing to assign all that is bad, all that is wrong, etc. etc. to this country. I'm sure you know that a country-by-country comparison as to humane treatment over the centuries could be drawn to condemn everyone...or to show progress, real growth in peace movements over the centuries. Some days may seem bleaker than others when one holds the perspective that emanates from your comments today. Pray tell, tho, what sentiments do you have about the thousands of victims (and their children, who must grow up without their father or mother) of bin Laden...that same bin Laden who proudly proclaimed the deaths he planned here and in other countries? Yes, anytime a 12 year old is injured, it is sad...anywhere. Now, think of the magnitude of the suffering, pain, disaster that bin Laden admitted more than once. Talk to us about those sentiments.

    Most of the time, your charming & witty personality seen through the prism of this blog serves you well. The lop-sided righteous indignation you seem to be expressing for a proclaimed international terrorist & murderer does not seem to reflect the persona displayed now.

    Parent

    I live in NY.... (none / 0) (#102)
    by kdog on Fri May 06, 2011 at 08:01:14 AM EST
    was close enough to see the smoke from the rubble across the East River...I have no illusions about these sick motherf*ckers christine.  But 9/11 did not occur in a vacuum, I would say the majority of Americans think that 9/11 was the first shot...and nothing could be further from the truth.  We've got our own sickness, I insist this must be acknowledged.

    Of course we're not the only bad actor...its been a vicous circle of bad actors.  I'm just saying we could be the ones to make the noble attempt to step up, accept some more risk, and possibly maybe by some miracle break this vicious circle.

    iow, Osama is dead, but at what cost?  The vicious cycle will surely continue...and thats no reason for a parade.

    Granted, as far as empires go we've been one of the kindest, gentlest in history...but its still an empire, and it still breeds contempt, anger, hatred, etc.

    Parent

    Your clarification is very thoughtful (none / 0) (#104)
    by christinep on Fri May 06, 2011 at 03:41:08 PM EST
    I would wish that we, as a nation, would act nobly. Your sentiment to aim high, to seek the good is not lost on me.

    One thing, tho: It has been said, in different ways, that we can appeal to our hopes, not our fears and to our "better angels" (see FDR and Lincoln.) That is what must aspire to, I believe. But, the nation is comprised of all of us, and--during some periods--fear, anger, resentment get the better of all of us. As you write so well at times, there are all kinds...like our real-life personal encounters with the sacred & the profane.

    So much of the dilemma is that I may feel frustrated by waiting for others to "catch up" with me at times, and you may feel frustrated (or more) waiting for my catching-up/being enlightened in the way you believe at other times. We're human. More patience with each other, maybe? Less cynicism, maybe? Hoping again even in the face of disappointment, maybe? Or...we could all go our "individual" ways and all of us ride our "we know better" horses...and, end up in the same place again.

    There has been a great cost to all of us since 9/11. "Wars" degrade, turn the landscape ugly with blood & bodies...but, there can also be a deep learning and ennobling. In many ways, I believe that we can turn to that aspirational side as this phase moves behind us.

    Parent

    I have to admit (none / 0) (#91)
    by sj on Thu May 05, 2011 at 03:17:03 PM EST
    I'm a little uncomfortable with this comment.  More than a little.

    Not because of what you said exactly, but how you said it.  That whole "my President" thing sounds a little too close to "my Lord".  I notice it.  Frankly, even if I was referring to George Washington (my particular favorite) I would call him "the" President.

    Parent

    If they didn't kill in the heat of emotion (none / 0) (#23)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:40:06 AM EST
    which one would expect from the training we're told that they undertake that has a 75% wash-out rate, then they were cold-blooded killers.

    Unless you think they took the time to shout "America First!  F*ck yeah!" before they shot bin Laden.

    ;-)

    Parent

    You don't think the mission was to (none / 0) (#27)
    by ruffian on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:51:22 AM EST
    go in there and kill him? I sure do. The reasoning that they could not be sure that he was not a threat to them (IEDs strapped to his body) may be valid, or may be an excuse. Seems highly unlikely to me, but maybe it is enough to justify it to some.

    But I sure do not think it was a spur of the moment, stress based decision to kill the guy.

    Parent

    Everyone I know who has worked around (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:07:39 AM EST
    any of these missions still today shakes their head when people insist they only meant to kill him.  You have no idea how badly they wanted to capture him and interrogate him. They had a plan for his capture too, but they weren't putting anyone at any greater risk than they were already taking on doing it.  He had to surrender completely.

    Parent
    We may never know (none / 0) (#69)
    by ruffian on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:15:22 AM EST
    what attempt was made to have him surrender. Knowing him, they had to know he would never walk out naked alone with his hands in the air, which seems to be the only way a surrender would have been accepted, so I don't know how sincere any wish to capture him alive could be unless people are amazingly naive.

    Parent
    They have also had whole houses (none / 0) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:19:17 AM EST
    booby trapped too and one switch blows everything and everyone and usually the neighbors too, so who knows how much effort they really made to capture him.  But if they had felt like there was a hope of doing it safely, I firmly believe they would have.

    Parent
    I think the narrative will have to, once again, (none / 0) (#83)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:52:29 AM EST
    change to support something other than this being a kill mission.  Helicopters landing outside your frosted windows (even stealth helios ), shots ringing out, the blasting of an unexpected concrete wall for entry,  an ability to wound, (not kill), a charging wife in the ankle, all this and the pajamaed Osama still did not have the AK 47 or other weapon in hand.  Whether the assassination mission was right is another question, but this part of the story is a fig leaf for those few Americans who would llke one, and for Arab and international consumption--in my view.

    Parent
    How many innocent Arabs has he killed as (none / 0) (#84)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 11:02:28 AM EST
    well?  I don't think the majority of Arabs or people in the Middle East are overly upset about what happened to Bin Laden.  There have been some small protests, but to me, considering who he was and what he stood for and what he did to so many innocent....I view them the same way that I view the KKK forgetting to put their sheets on before they go outside, or the secret clubs around here in lower Alabama that teach hate and teach a certain kind of skin superiority to their children at the dinner table.

    Parent
    This is kind (none / 0) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 05, 2011 at 11:11:22 AM EST
    of OT but your post brought up an interesting question in my mind: Since there are so many minorities in the military, how do the locals deal with this? I mean considering the attitude of some of them towards minorities.

    It seems that "support the troops" many of who are minorities and their own racial beliefs would make their heads explode.

    Parent

    I'll be blunt (none / 0) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 11:37:09 AM EST
    It is hard for families that are AA and in the military, because we all treat each other very differently and it has become the norm.  You move here and it's like moving to a foreign land for all of us. Latinos seem to be a little more accepted.  It seems like not many AA families decide to retire here or buy a house off post.  Some do but not many.  One of my husband's really good friends is in what the locals call a mixed marriage and they built a beautiful home here too.  She fascinates me because she just does not give a rip what anybody thinks.  She's made of teflon.  She was also who my husband used to send to tell someone off too if he was busy though and they were being slackers and needed some telling.  They are two of a kind.  They needed another unit "straightened out" so they moved her before they made something too straightened out together.

    They do have a lot to do on post though if you choose to hang out in our own little world here.  I think more people are challenging the status quo than when we moved here and I wonder if that doesn't have something to do with electing a black President?  More people are comfortable lately doing that.  I wonder if everyone will still self segregate when Josh gets to high school here.  They did when my daughter was there.  Sometimes I would pick her up though and she would be sitting on a bench with a kid that was AA, but he was a military brat like she was and they just didn't care what the local unspoken rules were.  Sadly, he was one of the kids killed in the tornado.

    At first I didn't know what to think about moving here, and the people that we bought our house from stayed close to us for awhile and they always freaked out if you colored outside the lines.  I remember she used to tell me...you just don't do that here.  The best thing that ever happened was getting rid of them!  I do do that here.

    Parent

    True, I do not have any good (none / 0) (#86)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 05, 2011 at 11:18:03 AM EST
    idea of how many Arabs he killed directly, but certainly, indirectly, through us (Iraq, for example) too many to bear.  Moreover, your observation may undermine a  reason for not releasing the photos (those Panetta said would be imminent)

    Parent
    I agree... (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:03:24 AM EST
    there was no way Osama was leaving that house in handcuffs...this was an assasination mission.

    Some people are saying because Obama doesn't wanna bring anybody to Gitmo, and everybody and their mother seemed to be afraid of trying the motherf*cker in Downtown Manhattan, as it ideally should have been...that left assasination or leave it to Osama's buddies in the Pakistani govt.

    Parent

    Depends on the actual orders (none / 0) (#51)
    by Yman on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:26:15 AM EST
    If the orders were actually to assassinate OBL, I might be inclined to agree.  If the orders were to attempt to capture him but to kill him if he resisted or was escaping, I have no problem with those orders.  This is not a typical, law enforcement situation where they should be required to only use deadly force when they're certain they're being confronted with deadly force.  I agree with MT - these guys (the Seals) should be given every benefit of the doubt, and should not have been required to put themselves at any greater risk in an effort to capture OBL rather than kill him.

    That being said, I disagree entirely with the winger radio talking points - i.e. that it's inconsistent to support the shooting of OBL and the torture of KSL (or others).  KSL's waterboarding occurred when he was in custody and presented no immediate risk to his captors.  While we know now that OBL was unarmed when he was shot, there is nothing to suggest the Seal team members knew this at the time of the shooting.  Again - might be a different story if he was killed after submitting, or if the orders were to kill him under any circumstances, but it's not likely something we're ever going to know ... at least not for a very long time.

    Parent

    Don't miss Justified season finale! (none / 0) (#1)
    by ruffian on Wed May 04, 2011 at 10:05:30 PM EST
    Unless you have had your fill of hails of bullets for the week.

    Other news? How about . . . (none / 0) (#2)
    by nycstray on Wed May 04, 2011 at 10:14:33 PM EST
    Dump The Donald? :)

    Longwood Gardens: (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Wed May 04, 2011 at 10:24:22 PM EST
    a don't miss. (Not on TV.). But on TV tonight:  vote now. Should our gov't release photos log Bin Laden!!!!!

    Longwood Gardens! (none / 0) (#7)
    by lilburro on Thu May 05, 2011 at 12:55:05 AM EST
    WIWIC?  (Where in the World is Oculus).  Outside Philadelphia?

    If so, perhaps you have visited our beautiful if occasionally surreal Lancaster County?

    Parent

    Whoops (none / 0) (#8)
    by lilburro on Thu May 05, 2011 at 12:55:54 AM EST
    that "C" is missing an "O."

    Parent
    Getting some more bad guys (none / 0) (#4)
    by ruffian on Wed May 04, 2011 at 10:26:51 PM EST
    U.S. suing Deutsche bank for $1 billion for their role in the mortgage crisis,

    lying their way into a government mortgage scheme and "recklessly" endorsing risky loans for federal insurance.

    Hints that this could be the start of many more such actions.

    More here.

    This is good stuff. Even the million most reckless of borrowers could not have caused the housing crisis without the willful collusion of the banks.

    LA City Attorney is also filing a civil complaint against Deutsche for the way they are handling foreclosures.

    I'm sure Deustche... (none / 0) (#22)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:37:38 AM EST
    is laughing at 1 billion like the faux-U.N. in "Austin Powers Goldmember" laughed at Dr. Evil's "1 million dollars" ransom request.

    They net profit that in a fiscal quarter...chump change.

    But at least we're annoying them, like a fly annoys an elephant...I guess thats something.

    But what we really need to do is just stop volunteering banksters our money...if we do that there is no need to sue.

    Parent

    My favorite new TV distraction (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Wed May 04, 2011 at 11:55:41 PM EST
    downscale superchristians buy out supermarkets with coupons.

    My daughter loves this show too (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 03:28:50 AM EST


    Parent
    TIME Ragazine wastes no time! (none / 0) (#10)
    by weltec2 on Thu May 05, 2011 at 03:29:27 AM EST
    HEADLINE: Five Mistakes the Obama Administration Has Made in the Aftermath of Bin Laden Killing

    1. Not getting its story straight: Was bin Laden armed or not?

    2. Not giving George W. Bush enough credit for helping bring bin Laden to justice.

    3. Letting the [bin Laden] photo debate get out of control.

    4. Letting the debate about the war in Afghanistan get out of control.

    5. Letting the debate about Pakistan get out of control.

    This whole thing... from the Time's point of view... has been an Obama fiasco from beginning to end. How will Obama ever recover?

    For me...only number 1 is valid (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 03:38:53 AM EST
    Number 2 is wildly offensive to this soldiers wife.  The rest is silly crap.  TIME must be having a hard time selling magazines lately and looking for a slice of that rightwing fruitcake market.

    Parent
    It's not "Time" the institution (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:20:51 AM EST
    it's Mark Halperin's opinion/analysis blog.  Major difference.

    Parent
    I always laugh at news media (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by ruffian on Thu May 05, 2011 at 06:35:23 AM EST
    critiquing someone for letting a story 'get out of control'. If they didn't propagate nonsense most of the worst distortions would not 'get out of control'.

    Parent
    Obama's (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 05, 2011 at 05:52:17 AM EST
    message team has been flatfooted on this but then they have been flat footed on most issues.

    And I'm tired of hearing why we should give Bush more credit. I mean the guy is out of office and has been for over two years.

    Parent

    Everyone is tired of the Osama (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 03:36:37 AM EST
    story.  I do understand that, but when Jeralyn put up the photo link yesterday and I saw the photos of what was left of the helicopter it was really strange.  I'm not any kind of mechanical expert, I just see military helicopters all day everyday.  There is a corridor over my house that students pilots fly in constantly, they are all over this area too.  It was only a piece of the aircraft too so maybe I'm just seeing things but I have never seen anything like that tail boom on any of our existing helicopters but when I was trying to figure out what it looked like, it looks like a Commanche.  A Commanche was originally a two man stealth helicopter that they said they decided to scrap the program on.  It looks to me like some part of that program survived, but if its true they really screwed up in not getting all of that helicopter torched.

    Looks like I'm not just seeing things (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 03:48:04 AM EST
    the google says someone much more mechanical than I am sees things too.  So this is why they didn't show up on Pakistan's radar.  Well, you guys really screwed up not getting that thing well torched.  We know you have them now.

    Parent
    Interesting - thanks (none / 0) (#15)
    by ruffian on Thu May 05, 2011 at 06:32:53 AM EST
    Also strange to me that the tail section landed outside the wall. Was that in the initial 'crash', or whatever the latest description is, or did it get blown over the wall when the Seals exploded it to destroy it? I was not under the impression that the initial crash was bad enough to scatter pieces of the chopper.

    Parent
    Officiall described only (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:22:59 AM EST
    as "hard landing." I wouldn't think that would detach the tail and bounce it over a wall.

    Parent
    I have even more stuff now (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 07:23:42 AM EST
    Because there are lots and lots of helicopter mechanics around here and apparently when the photo made it out yesterday they were all looking at it scratching their heads.  The cap over the rotor is supposed to sheild the movement from radar.  There are no exposed rivets, which also is also used to hopefully destroy your radar signature.  And it appears to be covered with UAV paint that costs about $10,000 a gallon but it absorbs radar.  And the stabilizer support almost appears to be backwards in how it is tilted.  The news is reporting that the rotorblades are modified, they are not though.  They only have that cap to sheild from radar on them.

    They have so much UAV stuff out there though they are losing control of the technology, everyone knows what that radar absorbing paint looks like now.  I hope this is a deterrent to using UAVs in the U.S.  I'm certainly going to play it up all I can :)

    The mechanic I talked to though said that someone is really pissed that they didn't destroy that tail boom and whenever you have to destroy a helicopter that is the section that is hardest to destroy and you have to pay extra attention to.

    Parent

    I was going to respond similarly (none / 0) (#31)
    by ruffian on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:57:46 AM EST
    yesterday when someone suggested it was impossible to get by the Pakistan radar without them knowing it. Please. With those techniques you talk about plus our signal jamming abilities we can evade anyone's radar (except maybe our own) for half an hour or whatever it took here.

    I feel bad for the Seal team - they get OBL and are going to get chewed out about the tail rotor!

    Parent

    They are probably going to get what (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:08:39 AM EST
    soldiers always get....a mixture of gratitude and chewing.  They'll be fine, but they are going to be chewed out.  Gotta tell you, this was a great secret.  It took everyone I know by surprise :)  People here yesterday were talking about how since this was Seal Team Six, they probably didn't run any part of this op through Afghanistan either.  They probably ran it off of a ship in the Arabian Sea, and it made a lot of sense too since they admitted that they had placed his body in the Arabian Sea too.  But then nobody could figure out who flew this mission for them.  Was it the 160th?  Did they call them out of Afghanistan or did they have them onboard a ship.  You could tell everyone had sort of hit a stop gap that they couldn't get any fluid thought to flow through.  Turns out nobody knows who flew this mission because they don't exist!  It was a great secret, they did a great job keeping it right up to the point that they didn't.

    Parent
    My next door cube mate (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by ruffian on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:23:23 AM EST
    has been obsessed with figuring out where they left from. We figured there had to be a ship involved, but I too was wondering who did the flying. They all really did do a very professional job of keeping the secret, and in the overall mission.

    I think my overall takeaway is that it had to be done. In a perfect world things should have gone another way and we would have had an international trial, but I don't think that was ever in the cards. I reserve my right to change my mind (again).

    Parent

    Interesting cube mate! n/t (none / 0) (#80)
    by lilburro on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:44:04 AM EST


    Parent
    Having been somewhat disappointed (none / 0) (#17)
    by Nemi on Thu May 05, 2011 at 07:16:59 AM EST
    over Glenn Greenwalds post (discussed in an earlier thread) I'm happy to see this in his update:

    ... it is more important than ever to make clear that torture is never justifiable no matter what it produces.
    Beth Holloway... (none / 0) (#20)
    by ScottW714 on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:27:18 AM EST
    ... is in some kind of reality show about missing kids.  Also it looks like there is a movie coming out about Natalee's disappearance, staring Tracy Pollan as BH.

    I wanna say Lifetime picked up both.

    I guess we haven't seen the last of her, which is unfortunate IMO.

    Her and John Walsh... (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:41:12 AM EST
    should get together.

    Everybody grieves in their own way I guess...becoming a TV personality is a weird one to me though.

    Parent

    The Commercial... (none / 0) (#50)
    by ScottW714 on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:24:28 AM EST
    .. for the reality show has her saying something to the effect that she knows a thing or two about missing children.

    And the preview for the movie has the actress playing BH pleading "It matter, her death matter..." but it the cheesiest way possible.  Over acting, and over glorifying BH.  Once you see it you are gonna laugh.

    kdog, I can't imagine two totally different end of the spectrum that Walsh and BH.  One is out there self promoting herself and using her dead daughter to it, the other is actually making the world safer without an spec of self-promotion.

    Maybe it's wrong, but I think BH has a hand in the fiasco that went down in South America.  Not directly, but indirectly.  I believe without BH that girl would still be alive.  Seeing her out there making money off this turns my stomach.

    I get and understand Walsh, Holloway I don't, grieving or not, she's got real problems and the media is happy to stoke them for a couple bucks.

    Parent

    How so? (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Yman on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:38:57 AM EST
    I can't imagine two totally different end of the spectrum that Walsh and BH.  One is out there self promoting herself and using her dead daughter to it, the other is actually making the world safer without an spec of self-promotion.

    How is Walsh different from Beth Holloway?  What makes you attribute altruistic motives to him, but selfish motives to her?

    Maybe it's wrong, but I think BH has a hand in the fiasco that went down in South America.  Not directly, but indirectly.  I believe without BH that girl would still be alive.

    In what way did she "have a hand in the fiasco that went down in South America"?  Placing responsibility for Stephany Ramirez's death at her feet is a very serious allegation, one for which you offer zero evidence.  Even the accusation of "indirectly responsible" is vague - for a reason.

    I don't know BH and have no opinion re: her or her motives, but I just don't get the visceral hatred and conspiracy theories directed at her by some people - usually the same people who are all too willing to jump to the defense of JVDS.

    Parent

    Come On (none / 0) (#92)
    by ScottW714 on Thu May 05, 2011 at 03:49:16 PM EST
    She was working with the FBI and private investigators who were following VDS, who went to SA with the funds be got from Holloway.  A woman who bribed the guy she thinks killed her daughter in my book is seriously disturbed.  My memory is a bit cloudy, but I think the money was for the location of the NH body, which is essentially a confession.  

    She got screwed, VDS fled, and her private dicks followed him, is really that hard to imagine she tossed someone another bribe to get VDS off the street ?  Not that I believe that, but quite acting like she's a saint, she's a psycho.

    VDS used that money to go to South America, take away Holloway's money and VDS doesn't end-up in South America, at a casino and Ramirez is still alive.

    So I stand by my original post that she was indirectly involved.  I know it's serious, but so were her actions, and now some idiots think putting her on TV is a good idea.

    I'm not going to regurgitate this entire mess, see the loads of previous posts on the case.

    And I'm not defending VDS, which you are implying, just pointing how how over the top BH has been and the stank she left on the entire mess.

    Parent

    Ohhhhh ... the "it's POSSIBLE game" (none / 0) (#101)
    by Yman on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:06:48 PM EST
    ... or, in this case, the "is it really hard to imagine" game - a true favorite among conspiracy theorists.  The best part of this game is that, after saying "it's possible/is it really hard to imagine", you can say pretty much anything because, in fact, it's possible to imagine almost anything.  It's like the Birthers claiming it's possible that Obama is not an American citizen.  It's possible he was born in Kenya.  It's possible the birth certificate is a forgery.  Followed (sometimes) by the obligatory, "I'm not saying he was born in Kenya, I'm just saying it's possible ...".  They, like you, have zero evidence to support their wild speculation, but anything's possible, right?

    Classic.

    But back to the issue at hand.  First of all, the payment that BH made to JVDS was not a bribe.  Holloway was contacted by JVDS, who attempted to extort money from her in exchange for the location of her daughter's body.  The payment, made with the full knowledge and cooperation of the FBI, was entirely legal.  Secondly, I have no idea if the money JVDS used to travel to the poker tournament was from the Holloway payment, but even assuming it was, that does not make her responsible for the death of Stephany Ramirez.  Absent some tye of knowledge that JVDS was going to kill Ramirez, that's just a silly claim.  What if JVDS had received the money as wages from his employer?  Is the employer responsible for her death?  Is the sporting goods store that sold him the tennis raquet responsible for her death?  Hey, .... if they hadn't sold it to him, he couldn't have used it to kill her, right?

    Ridiculous.

    But back to the broader issue.  I'm not treating Holloway "like a saint".  I don't even know the woman - just like you.  To claim that she's crazy for trying to either: 1) find the location opf her daughter's body and/or 2) have the man she believes is responsible for the death of her daughter held responsible is ... well, ... crazy.  What parent wouldn't try to find their child's body, even if it meant paying the man they thought was responsible for her death?  OTOH, even if she believed JVDS's offer was a fraud, what parent wouldn't cooperate with the police/FBI to have him held responsible?

    Then there's the always popular amateur psychoanalysis of BH's motives, this time with the added psychoanalysis of Walsh and attempt to draw a sharp distinction between them.  Both Holloway and Walsh lost their children.  Both became active participants in seeking justice for their children.  Both wrote books and had movies made about their stories.  Both became advocates for victims of crime.  Both promoted their stories and the stories of their children.  Both have made money in doing so.  Yet you claim that Holloway is a shameless, self-promoter who uses her dead daughter to make money, while Walsh is doing the very same things "without an ounce of self-promotion" to "make the world safer".

    If it weren't so ridiculous, it would be funny.

    Parent

    I'm too young... (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:51:15 AM EST
    to remember Walsh when he tragically lost his son...I only really know him as a TV star.  Seems to like to promote himself too, but maybe I got the wrong impression.  Law & Order types give me the general creeps.

    Can't say I'm too keen on pinning any bodies on the poor lady bro...thats a bit much.  But its unsavory and certainly not how I would grieve such a tragic loss...but whatever.  I won't be tuning in.


    Parent

    The NFL lockout continues (none / 0) (#30)
    by Makarov on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:56:32 AM EST
    with a panel of the 8th Circuit expected to rule at any moment on a stay pending appeal of the injunction to lift it and force the league to resume normal operations. The following site has an excellent time line of the case and links to filings:

    http://www.antitrusthall.com/?p=210

    A HuffPo blog notes that secure the stay pending appeal the NFL must demonstrate:

    (1) A strong showing of likely success on the merits
    (2) Irreparable harm without a stay
    (3) Players are not substantially harmed by a stay
    (4) Public interest favors the stay

    Since the bar to staying an injunction is so high, the result of this decision could easily mirror the final result of the appeal. The 8th Circuit released a schedule for expedited appeal of the injunction with oral arguments scheduled for June 3.

    Former solicitor general Paul Clement will argue for the NFL owners (defendant), while his predecessor Ted Olson will argue for the players (plaintiff).

    The league's approach to the case has really not changed from the beginning. As Huffpo notes, the defense's legal strategy has amounted to asserting:

    (A) the District Court of Minnesota does not have jurisdiction to issue an injunction due to the Norris-LaGuardia Act; (B) the District Court should not have decided the case before the NLRB issued its views on the NFL's unfair labor practice charge; and (C) the District Court should not have ruled as to whether the nonstatutory labor exemption continues to apply after decertification.

    I find the NFL's arguments weak, and especially so with their own claims to irreparable harm. The league contends that permitting player trades and free agency prior to a final appeal is heard would amount to "irreversibly scrambling the eggs of player-club transactions". I'll note that in a normal business year, the NFL permits such actions beginning in early March, nearly 2 months before the NFL draft. Apparently, the league was not concerned about its potential antitrust liability by conducting the draft, but is somehow concerned about conducting trades and free agency.

    An additional note: (none / 0) (#35)
    by Makarov on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:06:21 AM EST
    The NFL has made it clear from the beginning of the case that it fully intends to have a complete season of football, and has released schedules for both  regular and pre-season games.

    With oral arguments in the expedited appeal to come June 3rd, a quick decision from the panel will need to follow in order to not disrupt regular team pre-season training camps. Camps typically begin in mid-July, with the 1st pre-season games scheduled for August 8.

    An extension of the stay of the injunction lifting the lockout will wipe out any pre-camp training activities. The players argue this will further harm the many hundreds of current and potential players who are not currently under contract. Further, the players note (and the district court agreed) that calculating the amount of monetary damages in these cases is extremely difficult (who can say who would or would not have obtained a contract during a normal business year), making normal antitrust treble damages an insufficient  remedy.

    Parent

    Of Course the Owners... (none / 0) (#56)
    by ScottW714 on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:42:43 AM EST
    ... "intends to have a complete season of football"

    This isn't about principle or what's right, it's about the money.  I love football and I wish every team was like my beloved Packers and owned by the people, not money grubbing A-holes would could care less about the fans, so long as they pony up for uber inflated tickets, beverages, and gear.  While getting cities to finance the very stadiums and workout facilities they are using as negotiation tools to enrich themselves.

    But cities, like Houston, are so scared the owners will pull up and leave (Oilers), they bow to their every whim, including building near billion dollar facilities and letting the NFL hold some lame jurisdiction over it.

    I am so tired of these mega rich clowns whining they are somehow the victims.  We could all be so luck to be victimized into millions and millions of dollars from facilities other people have paid for.

    Parent

    Obamanomics news (none / 0) (#32)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:59:42 AM EST
    .

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The number of Americans filing for jobless benefits rose to an eight-month high last week and productivity growth slowed in the first quarter, clouding the outlook for an economy that is struggling to gain speed.

    .
    Thanks (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:12:37 AM EST
    for reminding us what a failure supply side economics is. Maybe no one will want to touch supply side econ in a few years.

    Parent
    And you were calling (none / 0) (#39)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:09:59 AM EST
    it "Bushonomics" in 2008, amiright?

    Parent
    The economy can't afford to buy gas (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:17:33 AM EST
    to keep its engine running.

    Parent
    Yes, it's a pity that the 20$/barrel (none / 0) (#72)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:23:11 AM EST
    price that Rupert Murdoch said would come out of the invasion of Iraq never panned out.

    Parent
    Osama doesn't mean sh*t (none / 0) (#60)
    by Dadler on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:49:33 AM EST
    We're still a nation laughing while we chew our legs off.

    New Keiser Report is priceless (LINK)

    Wolf Blitzer just (none / 0) (#67)
    by observed on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:09:16 AM EST
    asked if anyone wondered if it was inappropriate for Obama to speak at Ground Zero after Bin Laden's death.
    The answer (I'm listening now) by the reporter was a very clear NO. Good for her, disgraceful for Wolf.
    Par for the course for Wolf. (none / 0) (#70)
    by Anne on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:18:11 AM EST
    Really, when it comes to most of these talking heads, it's just a matter of time before the stupid emerges; it's almost a reflex.

    I long for the day when the reporter would have responded with, "Anyone, Wolf?  Or are we talking about you?  Because no one else I've spoken to has raised this concern."

    I know they pay him to talk, but Wolf with his mouth snapped shut would be a wonder to behold.

    Parent

    I heard he wasn't speaking (none / 0) (#76)
    by nycstray on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:35:43 AM EST
    just laying a wreath at the pear tree and talking to 911 families

    Parent
    They'll say thta's smug and (none / 0) (#88)
    by observed on Thu May 05, 2011 at 12:10:33 PM EST
    condescending.
    I think it's a great touch.
    I don't like Obama for many of his policies, but bravo on getting Bin Laden; also, I'd say he has vindicated his Af-Pak strategy.

    Parent
    Laying a Wreath (none / 0) (#90)
    by vicndabx on Thu May 05, 2011 at 01:14:00 PM EST
    Meeting with some of the families after privately.

    Parent
    Someone on NPR was critiquing how he (none / 0) (#93)
    by ruffian on Thu May 05, 2011 at 04:12:19 PM EST
    picked the 911 families to talk to. He just cannot win.

    Parent
    That (none / 0) (#95)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 05, 2011 at 04:28:53 PM EST
    is why he needs a "war room" and I think the fact that the press treated him with kid gloves back in 2008 has kind of come back on him with a belief that the "press has his back".

    Too many liberals and progressives buy into this too. The press is NOT our friend.

    Parent

    Republicans demonstrate their (none / 0) (#75)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:33:36 AM EST
    love of the military:

    House Republicans say they have no plans to follow the Senate in passing a resolution honoring the military mission that killed Osama bin Laden.

    The decision by GOP leaders follows new rules they enacted in January scrapping the tradition of congratulatory measures, which they complained clogged up the House floor.

    The Senate on Tuesday passed a resolution, 97-0, commending "the men and women of the United States Armed Forces and the United States intelligence community for the tremendous commitment, perseverance, professionalism and sacrifice they displayed in bringing Osama bin Laden to justice." The measure commended President Obama and reaffirmed the Senate's commitment "to disrupting, dismantling and defeating al Qaeda." It also recognized former President George W. Bush's efforts after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

    Link to Digby Hullaballo

    What a bunch of ricks with a "p" (none / 0) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:40:04 AM EST
    I'm tired of their venom and their hatred and most of all their jealousy.  I have spent ten years of my family's life and limb tending to this.  Friends have died and some things came unraveled that had to be survived just to get here.  And I want to see my President at Ground Zero!  I can't wait!  I need this and I don't care if I'm a small person weak of mind and spirit for needing it.  I need it!

    Parent
    Meawhile, Lloyd Blankfeing, Hank Paulson... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Dadler on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:37:22 AM EST
    ...and all the rest, terrorists in their own wretched right, are free as birds to do whatever they please.

    It Osama got a bullet in the head, what of the people who LITERALLY are stealing and destroying the nation?

    I don't want them killed, I'm just trying to figure out why, when it comes down to it, we still allow ourselves to be so deluded as to who our most formidable and dangerous enemies are.  Hint: they ain't overseas.

    the Calvinst-Protestant ethic (none / 0) (#94)
    by jondee on Thu May 05, 2011 at 04:26:14 PM EST
    and the ethic-mythos of John D Rockefeller's "American Beauty Rose" STILL dictates to many in this country that the Blankfein's et al, are being rewarded for being God's good stewards. This belief survives in the minds of many as a primative, unconscious superstition.

    Who are we to question how divine providence doles out rewards and punishments? Our calling is to prove ourselves worthy.  

    Parent

    Hillary may have been stifling a cough (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:49:37 AM EST
    in that situation room photo she sheepishly admits.

    She does not know when during the 38 minutes it was taken.

    One (none / 0) (#89)
    by lentinel on Thu May 05, 2011 at 12:49:18 PM EST
    might be tempted to ask why there are so many contradictions.
    The whole thing was probably taped. I think there is a photo of the whole gang, gathered around the family fireplace as it was going down.

    Nevertheless, whatever Obama finally decides will be the truth for us all will be OK with me.

    The timing of the release of the birth certificate document paper product which proves beyond any doubt the unquestionable veracity of anything from the WH has quashed any doubts I might have about anything he has to say in the future even about a quickly disposed of body that was not armed but was protected by a human shield wife who was killed but actually may have survived.

    Justice has prevailed and so has the purity of our bodily fluids.

    Republicans fold on Medicare (none / 0) (#97)
    by Politalkix on Thu May 05, 2011 at 05:53:44 PM EST
    All the paranoia in this blog regarding Medicare seems misplaced.
    link

    They've (none / 0) (#99)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 05, 2011 at 06:10:26 PM EST
    backed off the Ryan plan for sure but we don't know what kind of cuts Obama is going to agree to yet.

    Parent
    The audacity of O (none / 0) (#98)
    by Politalkix on Thu May 05, 2011 at 05:58:43 PM EST
    EJ Dionne has penned a nice column. link

    God save us (none / 0) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 07:44:39 PM EST
    John Yoo is on the tube, they are quoting from his OpEd where he calls President Obama Mr Obama instead of President.  My husband just lost his mind.  It's just a thing with him, that you call our current President President.

    It's like when PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri May 06, 2011 at 08:42:31 AM EST
    uses the word "Obamie" when referring to the President on his blog, they can't resist a chance to demonstrate how classless they are at every turn.

    Parent
    Wednesday Night Open Thread | 104 comments (104 topical)

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