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Torture Does Not Work: Part 2

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Other Politics
Posted on Wed May 04, 2011 at 10:50:20 AM EST
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Glenn L. Carle, a retired C.I.A. officer who oversaw the interrogation of a high-level detainee in 2002:

[C]oercive techniques “didn’t provide useful, meaningful, trustworthy information.” He said that while some of his colleagues defended the measures, “everyone was deeply concerned and most felt it was un-American and did not work.”

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    Torture Does Not Work: Part 2 | 51 comments (51 topical)

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    more evidence: (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Mike Pridmore on Wed May 04, 2011 at 11:24:44 AM EST
    some samples from the Think Progress link:

    General David Petraeus

    "Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. That would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone `talk;' however, what the individual says may be of questionable value."

    FBI memo

    The continued use of these techniques has the potential of negatively impacting future interviews by FBI agents as they attempt to gather intelligence and prepare cases for prosecution.

    Former JAG officer Major General Thomas Romig

    "If you torture somebody, they'll tell you anything. I don't know anybody that is good at interrogation, has done it a lot, that will say that that's an effective means of getting information. ... So I don't think it's effective."

    Former special ops interrogator Michael Alexander (The Daily Show):

    "When I was in Iraq, the few times that I saw people use harsh methods, it was always counterproductive. Because the person hunkered down, they were expecting us to do that, and they just shut up. And then I'd have to send somebody in and build back up rapport, reverse that process, and it'd take us longer to get that information."

    FBI Special Agent Jack Cloonan:

    "It is my belief, based on a 27 year career as a Special Agent and interviews with hundreds of subjects in custodial settings, including members of al Qaeda, that the use of coercive interrogation techniques is not effective. The alternative approach, sometimes referred to as `rapport building' is more effective, efficient and reliable. Scientists, psychiatrists, psychologists, law enforcement and intelligence agents, all of whom have studied both approaches, have came to the same conclusion. The CIA's own training manual advises its agents that heavy-handed techniques can impair a subject's ability to accurately recall information and, at worst, produce apathy and complete withdrawal."
    All we are doing is refighting the fight (1.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Slado on Wed May 04, 2011 at 12:43:39 PM EST
    Who cares?

    The same people that said what they said two years ago or more are saying the same thing now.

    Meaningless.

    We'll never know if it really worked.

    Does it matter?  We don't do it anymore and we still do all sorts of things which in my mind would be worse to someone not obsessed with "torture".

    The right is just as wrong as the left in reliving something that is already closed.

    Move on.

    Parent

    Yes, it does matter (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Yman on Wed May 04, 2011 at 12:50:10 PM EST
    As Santayana pointed out, "Those that fail to learn from the past ..."

    Parent
    Meaningless is your pointless apathy (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Dadler on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:11:04 PM EST
    Yes, it is certainly a savvy mind indeed that figures, yawn, the people who've been right all along, pfft, screw them.

    Jaysus, do a modicum of homework on this issue.  Freedom does exist in this respect. Here's where to start.  

    "How to Break a Terrorist: The US Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq."  

    Parent

    Re: (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by lilburro on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:20:29 PM EST
    Move on.

    Torture is a war crime, you know.  

    Parent

    And a regular crime... (none / 0) (#12)
    by kdog on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:32:02 PM EST
    in all of the USA and most of the world.

    Though the cheeky bastards have carved out some loopholes for when the state has a hankering for torturing, to make it "legal".

    Parent

    hmmmm (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Mike Pridmore on Wed May 04, 2011 at 02:06:54 PM EST
    Well, I'm sure the people being tortured care.  And I'm willing to bet that many of the families of soldiers who die as a result of our enemies' response to the torture.  Those who actually want to further peace care. How's that for a start?

    Parent
    I don't think "move on"... (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:08:12 PM EST
    is an option with this CIA Slado.

    I suspect they tortured human beings to various degrees since the agency was founded, and continue to do so to this day.

    Now maybe "torture doesn't work" was the wrong argument to make, we should simply say "torture is wrong" period, regardless of how effective it is or isn't...and get to work dismantling and reorganizing an intelligence agency that has torture in its DNA.

    Parent

    You know, torture is wrong (1.50 / 4) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:12:05 PM EST
    is a good point. The question then becomes, what is torture?

    Parent
    Hmmm (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:24:08 PM EST
    How about if we use you as the guinea pig Jim?  Let's all get together and begin to investigate this as a group.  You let us know when we have crossed the line into torture okay, and we'll take a vote as to whether or not it is torture or you are lying?  Buwhahahahaha, I crack myself up.

    Parent
    Force him to read Dark Avenger's (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by observed on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:56:16 PM EST
    comments without being allowed to respond.

    Parent
    Now, PPJ has been through what (none / 0) (#26)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed May 04, 2011 at 03:41:10 PM EST
    must have been torture to him in the last few days:

    1.  Obama following through on a campaign promise.

    2.  The majority of the American people agreeing with him this time.

    So, let's be nice to him for today at least.  

    ;-)


    Parent

    DA is gone but we do have (none / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 04, 2011 at 07:57:40 PM EST
    Harry...

    ;-)

    Parent

    Your endurance during such a trying time (none / 0) (#35)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed May 04, 2011 at 08:10:19 PM EST
    is noteworthy, PPJ, you bear your sufferings well these days.

    :-)

    Parent

    You're sure you don't have Yman too? (none / 0) (#47)
    by observed on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:09:51 AM EST


    Parent
    Actually Tracy (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 04, 2011 at 08:00:01 PM EST
    reading some of your rants is painful but I have managed to tough it out.

    ;-)

    Parent

    What is the point of your question? (none / 0) (#8)
    by observed on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:20:27 PM EST
    Are  you going to suggest that waterboarding isn't torture?
    I could be wrong, but I believe that there was a case of a German or Japanese who was executed for waterboarding.


    Parent
    Somewhere between... (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:22:50 PM EST
    my definition and yours, I'd bet:)

    A couple examples...ripping out fingernails, waterboarding, unknowingly dosing with LSD, sensory depravation...many more examples in classified files, but the folks who pay the bills don't have the clearance.

    Parent

    My favorite way of defining it (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by republicratitarian on Wed May 04, 2011 at 02:04:11 PM EST
    If we (America) would consider an act committed against a  U.S. service member (or civilian) to be an act of torture, then it's torture. If someone captured a soldier and waterboarded him or her, we would certainly consider that torture. Let someone who would authorize any of these acts go through it one time and then tell us it isn't torture.

    All of your examples in my opinion would be torture, although, you might get some volunteers for the LSD dosing. Just a hunch.

    Parent

    Voluntary... (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Wed May 04, 2011 at 02:53:01 PM EST
    would be allright...but thats not how they did it back in the 50's-60's...they even dosed their own people without consent, and one killed himself after being dosed.  Using prisoners without their consent, deputizing hookers to dose gangsters and observe...if you know the history nothing can be put passed this bunch.

    I almost can't wait the 40-50 years to find out what kind of heinous sh*t they're up to today that we have no clue of...some waterboard action is probably the least of it.  

    Parent

    The winners write the history (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 04, 2011 at 08:01:13 PM EST


    Parent
    And "might makes right" ... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Yman on Thu May 05, 2011 at 07:56:39 AM EST
    Funny, how the guys who say that wouldn't feel the same way if they didn't have the biggest kid on the playground to do their fighting for them ...

    Parent
    Might makes a winner (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:44:11 AM EST
    It just so happens America as a winner helps the world.

    Parent
    "Go, team, go!" (none / 0) (#46)
    by Yman on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:10:23 AM EST
    Why am I reminded of the cheerleaders who love to trash-talk from the sidelines ...

    Parent
    Which is why we have so many bases (none / 0) (#48)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:13:37 AM EST
    around the world, because everybody wants us there.

    This is a bit dated, but seems to be appropriate to the discussion:

    What with President Johnson practicing escalatio on the Vietnamese and then the Dominican crisis on top of that it has been a nervous year and people have begun to feel like a Christian Scientist  with appendicitis.

    Fortunately in times of crisis just like this America always has this number one instrument of diplomacy to fall back on. here's a song about it.

    When someone makes a move
    Of which we don't approve,
    Who is it that always intervenes?
    U.N. and O.A.S.,
    They have their place, I guess,
    But first send the marines!

    We'll send them all we've got,
    John Wayne and Randolph Scott,
    Remember those exciting fighting scenes?
    To the shores of Tripoli,
    But not to Mississippoli,

    What do we do? we send the marines!

    For might makes right
    And till they've seen the light,
    They've got to be protected,
    All their rights respected,
    'till somebody we like can be elected.

    Send the Marines!

    Parent

    Thanks you, Polonius. (2.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed May 04, 2011 at 08:15:16 PM EST


    Parent
    For over 100 years ... (none / 0) (#27)
    by Yman on Wed May 04, 2011 at 03:47:26 PM EST
    ... the US had deemed waterboarding to be torture, and prosecuted people who did it, ...

    ... until GWB came along.

    "You know torture is wrong"

    I was surprised to hear you agree with what appears to be a simple truism, until I read your statement about locking OBL in a tall building and setting it on fire.  I guess if you raise the bar high enough for the definition of torture, almost nothing would be considered torture.

    Somehow, I think the bar would be lowered drastically if it was being done to you.

    Parent

    Turn about is fair play (1.25 / 4) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 04, 2011 at 07:58:23 PM EST


    Parent
    Really? So by that logic, ... (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Yman on Thu May 05, 2011 at 07:53:57 AM EST
    ... our government should engage in torture, beheadings, murder, rape, mutilations, etc., etc. - all without due process but with our approval and sanction?  From the same guy who just said that "torture is wrong"?

    Are you familiar with any of the basic precept of logic?

    Parent

    I am familiar with logic (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:41:17 AM EST
    Us techie type use it a whole bunch.

    ;-)

    I am also familiar with the expression:

    Time and circumstance judges everything.

    Think about it.

    Parent

    If torture "works" (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu May 05, 2011 at 08:44:16 AM EST
    why don't we use it in criminal investigations as well?

    Parent
    You must be rusty (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Yman on Thu May 05, 2011 at 09:08:33 AM EST
    Maybe you should've stuck with the tech side, rather than going in to sales.  Your dodging and spinning skills may have improved, but your logic skills have atrophied.

    Parent
    So you think (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 05, 2011 at 12:05:14 PM EST
    that Bill Clinton did the wrong thing by not waterboarding Gulf War vets or members of the Michigan Militia?

    Seems to me if you're for torture in this case, you would think it should be done every time.

    Parent

    Shakespear said it better (none / 0) (#36)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed May 04, 2011 at 08:12:51 PM EST

    Use every man after his desert, and who would 'scape whipping?



    Parent
    You managed to fit pretty much (none / 0) (#49)
    by sj on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:14:52 AM EST
    every talking point into your comment.  The comment is too foolish to even call it sophistry.

    Parent
    It just burns my arse (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 04, 2011 at 11:27:27 AM EST
    If the Bush administration's torture gained any actionable intelligence, why did they close down the unit in the CIA that was looking for Bin Laden?

    Well, President Bush (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by KeysDan on Wed May 04, 2011 at 02:19:25 PM EST
    had Osama re-organized out of existence, whereas, President Obama had him taken out of existence.

    Parent
    Let the courts decide (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by mmc9431 on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:41:32 PM EST
    Right wingers can rebrand torture by calling it "enhanced interogation". It's still torture and it is illegal. We executed people for doing the exact same thing that some are now advocating.

    The DOJ needs to bring charges against those responsible and let the courts decide. By leaving this as a gray area, we're going to have future administrations continuing to lower the bar to suit their own agenda.

    It's impossible to be the beacon of human rights around the world when we don't practice what we preach

    There is of course the Sadism that never gets (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by pluege2 on Wed May 04, 2011 at 07:22:16 PM EST
    discussed.

    Since it is well known that torture does not work, the question then becomes why do some insist on using it and supporting its use. There can be one and only one answer: Sadism.

    The true topic is not whether or not to use torture, that has been settled in the negative - always. But still remaining unresolved, and not even discussed is what can and should be done about the Sadists insisting on torturing.

    And most of the people in favor of torture (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed May 04, 2011 at 08:14:20 PM EST
    couldn't say "Boo!" to a goose, but their enthusiasm for it is there nevertheless.

    Parent
    They remind of some of the people (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 05, 2011 at 04:41:28 AM EST
    who couldn't wait to get the Iraq War underway and argued with everyone about the need of it.  When they got to Iraq and found out the bullets are real they couldn't hightail it out of military service fast enough.

    Parent
    Jose Rodriguez, who ran the CIA's Counterterrorism (none / 0) (#14)
    by Green26 on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:45:42 PM EST
    Center from 2002 to 2005, is saying different things in an upcoming Time interview/article. He says the helpful information starting coming from one of the two main detainees (al-Libbi) one week after the enhanced techniques (but not waterboarding) were used on him. The article cites a former senior intelligence official who say that once KSM "realized that resistance was unwise", he started providing considerable information. These guys don't see the enhanced techniques as tortue either. Rodriguez was investigated regarding the destruction of the videos of the interrogations.

    Since he was not involved (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:47:09 PM EST
    in the operation, how does he know what was used?

    Parent
    Don't know what Rodriguez (none / 0) (#22)
    by Green26 on Wed May 04, 2011 at 02:53:44 PM EST
    would or wouldn't have been involved with, but would think he, as head of this unit which oversaw the enhanced techniques, would have been briefed on what was going on and would have read summaries of what occurred. His quote in the article seems to indicate that he was given key information promptly. He also says the US should revive enhanced interrogation. He must think it helped.

    Parent
    As head of the the unit (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by sj on Thu May 05, 2011 at 10:25:47 AM EST
    which oversaw the "enhanced techniques" (TORTURE!!), I would say that he has a vested interest in validating the very existence of such an a unit.  His opinion in this matter is worth nothing.  Do you really think he'd say his unit was worthless?

    And I can't help but think that those who defend it are just regular old sadists.  Just garden variety sadists of the sort that have always cursed society.

    Parent

    Rodriguez (none / 0) (#24)
    by lilburro on Wed May 04, 2011 at 03:19:15 PM EST
    is not someone I would consider particularly reliable or politically unmotivated.  In terms of his opinion on whether torture "helped" or not.

    Parent
    For a 2011 operation? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed May 04, 2011 at 04:18:28 PM EST
    That makes no sense at all.

    Parent
    It is undisputed (2.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Green26 on Wed May 04, 2011 at 07:46:27 PM EST
    that information about couriers, and one in particular, came from these two detainees. The courier information caused investigators to start trying to identify and eventually locate the courier. The only question is whether the courier information came during enhanced interrogation, a week after the enhanced interrogation (as Rodriguez says), or much later. Thus, while some of you have asked how Rodriguez would know what eventually led to locating Bin Laden, it seems pretty clear to me that he recalled the courier information. While we can't know if he's correct in saying it came a week later, I don't think any of us has information to dispute what he said. Also, I bet there are interrogation logs and summaries that would verify the timing of the courier disclosure.

    Parent
    These people (none / 0) (#23)
    by lilburro on Wed May 04, 2011 at 03:15:39 PM EST
    have some long memories to recall one pseudonym so very clearly.

    Al-Libbi told interrogators that the courier would carry messages from bin Laden to the outside world only every two months or so. "I realized that bin Laden was not really running his organization. You can't run an organization and have a courier who makes the rounds every two months," Rodriguez says. "So I became convinced then that this was a person who was just a figurehead and was not calling the shots, the tactical shots, of the organization. So that was significant."

    (Time)

    That sounds valuable, but that's a different piece of information than the ones most people are talking about anyway.


    Parent

    And Marcy (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by lilburro on Wed May 04, 2011 at 03:21:35 PM EST
    makes the point that I was trying to but was unable to spit out in "Jose Rodriguez Brags That He Got Terrorists To Deny Things Using Torture":

    All of which suggests that that great piece of intelligence al-Libi gave us-that OBL's couriers would only check in every two months which meant he was just a figurehead-led directly to the CIA's decision to stop focusing on bin Laden.

    And if that's the case, then al-Libi's torture didn't lead us to OBL; rather, it led us to stop searching in concerted manner for OBL.

    No wonder Jose Rodriguez has taken this moment to start spinning wildly.

    I was going to say that knowing the Bush Administration, that tip probably just led them to stop hunting for bin Laden, but that seemed malicious.  Oh well, apparently it may actually be true.

    Parent

    From the mouths of criminals (none / 0) (#17)
    by blogtopus on Wed May 04, 2011 at 01:57:34 PM EST
    This is why torture doesn't work! http://twitpic.com/4tc0jy

    Torture Does Not Work: Part 2 | 51 comments (51 topical)

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