home

The Cost of the Somali Pirate Cases

The Government unsealed an Indictment today against 14 young Somalis. All 14 are charged with piracy and other major crimes in federal court in Norfolk, VA (Eastern District of Virginia.) If convicted on the first piracy count, the sentence is mandatory life in prison. There is no parole. They leave prison when they die. The FBI press release is here.

All 14 men were charged with piracy, which carries a mandatory penalty of life in prison. In addition, the indictment also charges them with conspiracy to commit kidnapping, which carries a maximum penalty of life in prison, and the use of a destructive device during a crime of violence. The latter charge carries a mandatory minimum of 30 years in prison and a maximum of life in prison, which would run consecutive to all other charges.

[More..]

The victims were two American couples, who were kidnapped while on their sailing vessel in the Indian Ocean. After being hijacked and kidnapped, the U.S. sent out some boats to talk to the kidnappers. Things did not go well, and the two couples were killed. The U.S. says they were killed by the hijackers, young Somali pirates. The U.S.boarded the ship and arrested and interrogated 15 of them. One was a juvenile who the U.S. says didn't play a role in the killings. They sent him home to his parents in Somalia. The rest were brought to Norfolk, Virginia, which is not where either couple lived or a place with any other connection to the offense.

The couple that owned the boat left the U.S. in 2004 and had been sailing around the world on their boat ever since.

The 2010 budget for 2010 includes $6.1 billion for the Bureau of Prisons and $1.4 billion for the Office of the Federal Detention Trustee (OFDT). Salaries for BOP correctional officers and staff are $3.6 billion, up $70 million from 2009 due to the increase in our prison population.

According to an April 27, 2010 memo from the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts, the monthly cost of imprisoning a federal inmate is $2,271. For a year, that's $27,000 plus change.

For a 25 year old with a life sentence, assuming they live to 65 (life expectancy can be shorter in maximum security prisons), that's 40 years times $27,000, which equals $1,080,000 -- a million dollars.

If there are 14 such defendants in a single case, and all are convicted and sentenced to life in prison, that's $14 million just to house them. It doesn't include other costs, such as their lifetime medical care while in prison.

It doesn't include the cost of prosecuting them, or the cost of providing defense attorneys and expert services to those who are indigent.

Somalia and the Indian Ocean are on the other side of the world from us.

Why bring them to the U.S.? Why pay for the prosecution, defense and lifetime incarceration? Does anyone even remotely think this will have a deterrent effect on others in lawless Somalia, where kids grow up knowing nothing besides poverty and decades of warfare?

And why the Norfolk, Virginia? The feds have a history of bringing these cases there. In a recent case in 2010, in which all 5 defendants were convicted at trial and are awaiting sentencing, facing mandatory life sentences, (including one who claimed to be a juvenile), all unsuccessfully challenged the federal court's jurisdiction. Two unsuccessfully challenged the venue decision. One of their lawyers wrote in his brief, available on PACER, that prosecutors, in opposing the venue change, did not dispute the essential facts alleged by the defense, including:

(1) the charged offenses were not committed in the Eastern District of Virginia;

(2) the defendants who are Somali nationals cannot be tried by a jury of their peers in the Eastern District of Virginia because there is no sizeable population of Somalis; and

(3) the venire to be drawn from the Eastern District of Virginia will be biased and prejudiced against the defendants as a result of the extremely large proportion of active duty and retired members of the United States Navy which reside here and the heavy press coverage this case has received from the local news media.

So, there is no nexus between the Eastern District of Virginia and the charged crimes, the offense didn't occur there, none of the defendants had ever been there. There is no Somali population residing in Norfolk, (as there is in say Minneapolis and Columbus, Ohio).

The Government unilaterally chose Norfolk because it believed it offered the most favorable forum to their case. Given the "pro military" views of its residents, it's probably right. But is it fair?

The Sixth Amendment requires that a criminal defendant be tried by “an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have committed.” Article III, section 2, clause 3 of the Constitution similarly provides that the trial of all crimes “shall be by jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed.”

The brief continues:

However, it must be readily apparent to this Court that this District has historically been comprised of an extremely large percentage of its populace which is directly or indirectly affiliated with or has a relationship with the Navy. Various demographic statistics document this fact as well as the overwhelming public realization and perception of Norfolk as a pronounced and enthusiastic “Navy town”. Public pronouncements and statements readily acknowledge this fact and the Navy’s interests are regularly accommodated and encouraged by public officials. In fact, the local area can be said to be obsessed with pleasing the Navy’s interest and political and public decisions are regularly made in light of those interests and seeking to please the Navy. Because of this overwhelming support and bias expressed by the public at large on behalf of the Navy, elected public officials will essentially do anything to keep the Navy happy and to maintain its preeminent place in the local economy and area.

This overwhelming public identification and shared interests with the Navy is what makes the Eastern District of Virginia unique and different from any other district. No other district is so indisputably tied or linked to one government entity. ....

Because of its very demographics, perceptions and shared loyalties with the Navy, the government knew that this district would be the most favorable venue for them and give them the best chance to secure a conviction. That is why the defendants are being tried here – because the government feels that this district is biased in their favor and unlikely to be impartial.... Noticeably, the government’s response to the Motion did not dispute or even mention this point.

There is no other reason for this district to have been selected for this case. The charged offenses did not occur within this district. Jurisdiction lies in this district only because the government forcibly brought the defendants to this district for trial. They could have selected any district in the country, but they selected this district solely because of the widely recognized view that did this would be the district most favorable to the government.

The defense argued:

The Eastern District of Virginia has no specific relationship or nexus to these alleged offenses or acts other than this was the district to which the Government brought the defendants against their will and filed charges against them. However, the fact that the Government elected this district as their venue of choice does not definitively decide the issue of where the defendants should be tried. The government’s self-interest must be weighed and balanced against the countervailing fundamental right of the defendants to be tried by an impartial jury of their peers. It is submitted that any fair balancing must result in the conclusion that the defendant’s constitutional right to a fair and impartial jury of their peers substantially outweighs the government’s blatant self-interest in picking a forum which they deem to be tactically favorable to them.

And what about a jury of one's peers? The defense argued:

The Constitution requires that all defendants are entitled to an impartial jury of their peers. It is submitted that this inherently includes the right to have members of one’s nationality on the jury venire. It has been held that the first element of impartiality is that jury selection must be so structured as to present the possibility that the jury itself will represent a cross-selection of the community... While there may not be an absolute right to have proportional representation of one’s nationality on a jury, The Sixth Amendment does require that a defendant have a jury pool which is comprised of a “fair cross-section of the community.”

...The defendants are all natives of Somalia and lived their entire lives there. They have been raised and lived in a culture and country totally different from that which is enjoyed by people living in the United States. Their culture, country, upbringing, values, morals, religion and life experiences are all profoundly different from those experienced in this country. Thus, it must be deemed necessary as a matter of fundamental fairness for at least the possibility or opportunity that someone on the jury venire the jury to have had similar experiences. Only in that way can the defendants have the true “jury of their peers” upon which the Sixth Amendment is premised.

On pre-trial publicity and the media's constant referral to the defendants as pirates:

This trial will be perceived by many as an “us versus them” clash of cultures with the United States and the U.S. Navy being perceived as the victims of the evils of Somalia and the defendants who are from that country. That is exactly how the local media are portraying this case. The media has reported that the defendants were “bobbing in the high seas, seeking their fortune by pirating merchant ships traversing the dangerous waters off the Horn of Africa”, were “defiant” in entering their pleas, that the judge determined that they are dangerous and there “are no conditions the court could impose that would ensure the safety of the community” , that the defendants had “confessed” and had strong cases against them and that President Obama has declared that piracy off the coast of Somalia is a “national emergency.”

Such statements are not designed to report facts, but rather to distort and present a biased view of this case. The government claims that these stories have not contained information which has been recognized as prejudicial. ...However, portraying the defendants as “pirates”, as being so dangerous that no conditions “could ensure the safety of the community” from them, that the government has a “strong case” against them and that they had all “confessed” must be deemed to be prejudicial.

More on Norfolk as the Government's choice:

The government’s opposition to this Motion is based on their self-interest in having a jury venire which is prejudiced in their favor. That is why they unilaterally selected this district when the offense did not occur here and why they are opposing the requested change of venue.

Justice is supposed to be blind and impartial. “Shopping” for the most favorable forum is not supposed to be permitted although that is exactly what is occurring here. The government has selected this district simply because the venire is unique and is less likely to afford these defendants a fair trial. The nature of the community within the Eastern District of Virginia, and particularly the Norfolk division, is enthusiastically and unabashedly pro-Navy.

In this last case, the Court couldn't even find a Somali interpreter in Virginia. It flew one in from Minnesota. Was the discovery even translated for these defendants, who cannot read or write? How much time did they get to spend with their lawyers and the interpreter?

As to how the judge ruled and the outcome of this 2010 case: Motions for change of venue were denied. Motions to dismiss for lack of jurisdiction were denied. All went to trial, represented by court-appointed counsel. All were convicted and are now awaiting life sentences. Requests to retain the services of an expert on Somali culture to assist with sentencing mitigation were denied.

What are the conditions in Somalia? From a defense sentencing memorandum in the case:

Somalia has been in a state of near constant civil war since before 1991. Human Rights Watch, Harsh War, Harsh Peace: Abuses by al-Shabaab, the Transitional Federal Government, and AMISOM in Somalia, No. 1-56432-621-7 (Apr. 2010); Human Rights Watch, Shell-Shocked: Civilians Under Siege in Mogadishu, Vol. 19, No. 12(a) (Aug. 2007) (both available here).

There is no effective government, warlords reign, and the rule of law is non-existent. Hundreds of thousands of Somalis have perished from starvation and violence. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees estimated that, in 2009, there were 1.4 million internally displaced persons in Somalia and another 584,000 Somali refugees in other countries. Human Rights League of the Horn of Africa website, available here.

One attorney describes his client's upbringing:

[H]e has lived in a state of constant warfare for all of his life. This area saw particularly heavy fighting during the Ethiopian invasion in 2006. See Human Rights Watch, Shell-Shocked: Civilians Under Siege in Mogadishu, Vol. 19, No. 12(a) (Aug. 2007).

He has never been to school and cannot read nor write. ...His mother and surviving siblings live in a refugee camp in Mogadishu ... His father left the family some time ago and lives in the north. He worked as a shark fisherman, serving as a foreman for the boat’s owner.

....The nature of unlawful acts of aggression at sea off of Somalia is another circumstance that the Court should consider. First, fishermen are forced into supporting piracy. ...Second, aggression against vessels began as a defensive response to “resource pirates,” i.e., unlicensed, foreign fishing vessels that took advantage of the demise of the Somali coast guard and ability to enforce its territorial waters. See generally Adbi Ismail Samatar et al., The Dialectics of Piracy in Somalia: the rich versus the poor, Third World Quarterly, 31: 8, 1377 (2011).... “

For most Somalis defensive piracy symbolises the population’s feeble effort to protect the moral economy of their livelihoods. From their perspective it is not possible to separate defensive and ransom piracy from the depredation of resources piracy.” Samatar et al., supra, p. 1387. Somalis see resource piracy as a threat to their subsistence. Id. at 1288-89. “The action of ransom pirates offers a partial and temporary response to the plight of Somali fishing communities which have been ignored by the international community.”

Of course the conditions in Somalia don't excuse murder. The defense does not argue otherwise. It argues these are factors to consider in determining the length of the sentence. But the piracy offense carries a mandatory life sentence. In the event the conviction on that count is thrown out, the defense submits 210 months (17.5 years) is the appropriate sentence.

Five defendants, all in their young 20's, all with life sentences. $27,000 per year for 40 years for 5 defendants equals - $5,400,000.00. And that's just the cost of housing them. It doesn't include the cost of prosecution or defense or their medical care while in prison.

Now we have a new Norfolk case with 14 young Somali defendants, captured in the Indian Ocean, and flown to the U.S. for criminal prosecution. With the jurisdictional and venue issues already decided against them in earlier cases, with no local interpreters and no local Somali population to sit on their jury, their fate will probably be the same. $27,000 per year for 40 years for 14 defendants equals $15,120,000.00.

$20 million just to warehouse the defendants in two cases.

America. Prison nation. Your tax dollars at work. No money for health care, but we have billions to spend on incarceration, including tens of millions on young Somali men who never stepped foot in the U.S. until dragged here after their arrest across the world.

< Judge Complains About Media Leaks in Lindsay Lohan Case | Colorado to Double-Down on Dumb Crime Policies >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    So, it turns out one of the murdered women (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 11:01:03 AM EST
    is closely related to to one of my neighbors, closely enough that the Navy was in contact with my neighbor during the time of the negotiations with the pirates.

    The woman had a large and extended family and they are all devastated, as you can imagine.

    I find it laughable, in a very sad way, that trying and imprisoning these pirates/murderers is being held up as some sort of proof that the US is a "prison nation."

    If all you have is a hammer (none / 0) (#40)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 11:13:38 AM EST
    every problem looks like a nail.

    Parent
    And if they don't have a hammer, (none / 0) (#43)
    by getoffamycloud10 on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 12:52:40 PM EST
    they can always gut funding for Head Start, Planned Parenthood, PBS/NPR, NOAA and Tsunami warning, shift the savings to the Pentagon and make a down payment on one.

    Parent
    Re: H. L. Mencken (none / 0) (#50)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 10:59:00 PM EST

    Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem -- neat, plausible, and wrong.



    Parent
    You ask great questions (none / 0) (#1)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 08:43:40 AM EST
    I don't understand mandatory life sentences for piracy alone. When a murder is committed that is a separate offense. and it should be charged and tried where it is committed. If americans are murdered in a foreign countries, do all the suspects get brought back here for trial?

    I suspect it has something to do with the possible escalation of violence when the US boats were sent out to talk to the pirates.

    The whole thing just has 'trying to hide something' written all over it.

    The problem is (none / 0) (#3)
    by nyjets on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 09:15:58 AM EST
    If the country where the Americans were murdered has some kind of functional government and court system, the answer would be no.
    However, the place where the crime took place has no such infrastructure.
    (Also, historically, it was not unusally I think for one country to punish pirates from another country. Of course said pirates were usually on the payroll from another country but that is another story. )
    Therefore, it does make sense that the US should try the accused pirates (and IMO,jailed for life if found guilty).

    Parent
    Historically priates (none / 0) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 12:32:59 PM EST
    were often tried and hung on the high seas where they were caught. Some were taken back to the capturing nation for trial and hanging.

    Parent
    On violence and poverty (none / 0) (#6)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 12:46:31 PM EST

    Undershaft, the hero of Major Barbara, is simply a man who, having grasped the fact that poverty is a crime, knows that when society offered him the alternative of poverty or a lucrative trade in death and destruction, it offered him, not a choice between opulent villainy and humble virtue, but between energetic enterprise and cowardly infamy. His conduct stands the Kantian test, which Peter Shirley's does not. Peter Shirley is what we call the honest poor man. Undershaft is what we call the wicked rich one: Shirley is Lazarus, Undershaft Dives. Well, the misery of the world is due to the fact that the great mass of men act and believe as Peter Shirley acts and believes. If they acted and believed as Undershaft acts and believes, the immediate result would be a revolution of incalculable beneficence. To be wealthy, says Undershaft, is with me a point of honor for which I am prepared to kill at the risk of my own life. This preparedness is, as he says, the final test of sincerity. Like Froissart's medieval hero, who saw that "to rob and pill was a good life," he is not the dupe of that public sentiment against killing which is propagated and endowed by people who would otherwise be killed themselves, or of the mouth-honor paid to poverty and obedience by rich and insubordinate do-nothings who want to rob the poor without courage and command them without superiority. Froissart's knight, in placing the achievement of a good life before all the other duties--which indeed are not duties at all when they conflict with it, but plain wickednesses--behaved bravely, admirably, and, in the final analysis, public-spiritedly. Medieval society, on the other hand, behaved very badly indeed in organizing itself so stupidly that a good life could be achieved by robbing and pilling. If the knight's contemporaries had been all as resolute as he, robbing and pilling would have been the shortest way to the gallows, just as, if we were all as resolute and clearsighted as Undershaft, an attempt to live by means of what is called "an independent income" would be the shortest way to the lethal chamber. But as, thanks to our political imbecility and personal cowardice (fruits of poverty both), the best imitation of a good life now procurable is life on an independent income, all sensible people aim at securing such an income, and are, of course, careful to legalize and moralize both it and all the actions and sentiments which lead to it and support it as an institution. What else can they do? They know, of course, that they are rich because others are poor. But they cannot help that: it is for the poor to repudiate poverty when they have had enough of it. The thing can be done easily enough: the demonstrations to the contrary made by the economists, jurists, moralists and sentimentalists hired by the rich to defend them, or even doing the work gratuitously out of sheer folly and abjectness, impose only on the hirers.

    Preface to Major Barbara, by G.B. Shaw.

    Parent

    Shaw aside (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 01:59:53 PM EST
    At first glance, this seems logical: Crime rates should drop during good economic times and rise during bad ones.

    But there's little evidence to suggest that good economic times have much effect on crime. Crime rates rose every year between 1955 and 1972, even as the U.S. economy surged, with only a brief, mild recession in the early 1960s. By the time criminals took a breather in the early 1970s, crime rates had increased over 140 percent. Murder rates had risen about 70 percent, rapes more than doubled, and auto theft nearly tripled.

    By the same token, a bad economy doesn't always bring more crime. Crime rates fell about one third between 1934 and 1938 while the nation was struggling to emerge from the Great Depression and weathering another severe economic downturn in 1937 and 1938. Surely, if the economic theory held, crime should have been soaring.

    Link

    But I will give you that the pirates have an easier time recruiting because Somali as a society is dysfunctional and no one is demonstrating to them that being a pirate can lead to very bad things happening to you.

    What we have here is a failure to communicate.

    Parent

    I'm sure that the Heritage Foundation (none / 0) (#12)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 02:18:42 PM EST
    can be relied upon for a fair and impartial analysis of crime and poverty.

    Parent
    To be explicit (none / 0) (#13)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 02:32:42 PM EST
    the Heritage Foundation represents what Shaw was against:

    the best imitation of a good life now procurable is life on an independent income, all sensible people aim at securing such an income, and are, of course, careful to legalize and moralize
    both it and all the actions and sentiments which lead to it and support it as an institution.

    What else can they do? They know, of course, that
    they are rich because others are poor. But they cannot help that: it is for the poor to repudiate poverty when they have had enough of
    it. The thing can be done easily enough: the demonstrations to the
    contrary made by the economists, jurists, moralists and
    sentimentalists hired by the rich to defend them, or even doing the work gratuitously out of sheer folly and abjectness, impose only on the hirers.

    What we have here is a failure to communicate.

    Au contraire, you've actually helped to make my point better than any other commentator here outside of Andreas or kdog.


    Parent

    You missed the point (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 04:00:56 PM EST
    and no one is demonstrating to them that being a pirate can lead to very bad things happening to you.

    What we have here is a failure to communicate.



    Parent
    Thanks as always for the feedback :-) (none / 0) (#24)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 07:41:33 PM EST
    Hanging people from the yardarm didn't work in the good old days, so thinking it would work now is,,,,,,,,,,,,,?

    Parent
    Actually I have (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 08:20:46 PM EST
    not suggested we hang anyone.

    I have noted that no one is demonstrating that becoming a pirate can lead to bad things happening to you.

    My plan would involve having the USN patrol the area to find and sink the mother ships.

    Parent

    Actually, (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by getoffamycloud10 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 10:58:21 PM EST
    in having Navy snipers kill 3 pirates and arrest a  4th while safely securing the unharmed rescue of a hostage, President Obama demonstrated quite clearly and effectively that piracy may not be the wisest career choice or surest way for Somali youth to be all they can be.

    Then again, in all fairness, after eight years of unprecedented bush league incompetence, I can see how the safely, securely and effectively thing would throw ya.

    Understanding one's adversary is not excusing them, it's just being smart.

    Of course, in view of the facts, "being smart" is not a term or practice one would associate with the bush leaguers.

    Parent

    No charge for the information? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 11:46:14 PM EST
    Well, that demonstration, (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 01:11:54 PM EST
    which Obama had zip to do with, didn't work.

    Which isn't all that unusual.

    Parent

    So, your saying something (none / 0) (#49)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 01:39:35 PM EST
    Obama didn't have anything to do with, failed?

    Wow, PPJ, have you given up blaming Obama for every ill under the Sun for Lent?

    Parent

    I'm sorry if I mistook scholarship for advocacy. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 09:07:22 PM EST
    I have noted that no one is demonstrating that becoming a pirate can lead to bad things happening to you.

    Yes, PPJ, bring down the hammer, don't look at the bigger picture:

    Once Somalia's fish populations were depleted, the international ships moved on. But local fishermen obviously could not. As economies along the coast collapsed, whole communities of Somalis became jobless, hungry and willing to exploit the only assets they had: boats with a strategic launching point into one of the world's most important commercial sea lanes. And what would have seemed unthinkable to many Somali villagers just a short time before -- transforming small fishing boats into pirate vessels -- has since become a way of life.

    Click or LAT Me

    160 words, so that the point would be complete.

    My plan would involve having the USN patrol the area to find and sink the mother ships.

    And when they start killing their hostages and scuttling the ships they already have, you then do what?

    According to Ecoterra, as of mid-November 2010, more than 500 crew members and at least 31 foreign vessels remain in the hands of Somali pirates.[19] As of December 11, 2010, Somali pirates are holding at least 35 ships with more than 650 hostages.[20]

    Click or Wiki Me

    Parent

    On the other hand (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 09:28:33 AM EST
    Somali has had a very nasty civil war on going for quite some time based mostly on religious beliefs. Neither side has exhibited any desire to help the "fishermen" you are so concerned over.

    What happens to the present people/ships being held for ransom when no new ships are allowed to be captured?

    I would say that when the ransom is paid they will be released. Half a loaf usually being considered as better than none.

    Of course if you want to opine that we should just let terrorists do as they want that is your option.

    Parent

    Re: Concern (none / 0) (#29)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 09:46:07 AM EST
    Somali has had a very nasty civil war on going for quite some time based mostly on religious beliefs. Neither side has exhibited any desire to help the "fishermen" you are so concerned over.

    That doesn't excuse the overfishing of their waters, PPJ, by the Western and Asian companies taking advantage of the fact that there is no organized government because of the civil war you mention.

    If anyone bothers to click the link, they'd find that the overfishing isn't the only factor said to be behind the piracy.

    What happens to the present people/ships being held for ransom when no new ships are allowed to be captured?

    It's easy to give out glib scenarios, PPJ, but the US Navy would have to patrol an area equivalent to that of the Mediterranean Sea.

    Don't you think it would better if it were an International, cooperative effort, or should Uncle Sam  be Uncle Sucker and go it alone?

    I would say that when the ransom is paid they will be released. Half a loaf usually being considered as better than none.

    Yes, that's how it usually works.

    Of course if you want to opine that we should just let terrorists do as they want that is your option.

    Of course, I didn't opine what I think the options are or even give giving into the terrorists as my opinion, but thanks for taking me seriously this time.

    Parent

    I am not forgiving anyone (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 10:13:59 AM EST
    but the over fishing, which may or may not now be recovered, is in the past. And you are using it as an excuse for the bad actions of the pirates.

    The uncivil war has largely prevented aid of any kind.

    So the world has to deal with the acts of the terrorists who are attacking shipping and holding people for ransom.

    Should we do it alone? No. But if you want something done sometimes you have to do it yourself.

    Parent

    Re: Excuse (none / 0) (#31)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 10:37:33 AM EST
    Sorry that you confuse an explanation with excusing the pirates, PPJ.  

    Have you stopped beating your wife yet?  Please limit your response to a simple yes or no.

    The uncivil war has largely prevented aid of any kind.

    Now, who is excusing who?

    So the world has to deal with the acts of the terrorists who are attacking shipping and holding people for ransom.

    Yes, which is why an international efforts involving a task force composed of the major and/or minor naval powers would be better than American naval power going it alone.

    Should we do it alone? No. But if you want something done sometimes you have to do it yourself.

    At least you've dropped the pretense that my approach is to do nothing but appease the terrorists.

    Thanks for the feedback, as always.

     

    Parent

    So I can (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 02:09:12 PM EST
    take that you understand and have sympathy for the pirates because they were forced into their illegal acts by the over fishing of their territorial waters by the evil big ships.

    But condemn their terrorist acts.

    Okay, now that we have that straight.

    And no, there is no excuse needed for not getting killed trying to help someone who obviously had rather fight. But even at that some organizations have provided some aid.

    I take it that you would have no problem with searching out and finding and destroying the mother ships IF it was a joint UN effort.

    Uh, got an estimate on how long it will take to get that through the UN and how much less than 95% of the cost we will bear?

    I opine it would never get through the UN and if it did our cost would be > 95%.

    Parent

    evil big ships (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 02:20:48 PM EST
    you got that part right..

    So which new war are you ready to take personal charge of Jim? As I recall you already had a lot on your plate, what with Iran, Syria, Venezuela et al (plus all those tenured radicals running our public schools) still not having been put in their places yet..

    Parent

    Oh, I dunno jondee (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 01:10:00 PM EST
    I think I will just fall back on my 10 years of previous service and let the youngsters run things.

    What's your plan?

    Parent

    Re: Understand (none / 0) (#34)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 02:46:39 PM EST
    take that you understand and have sympathy for the pirates because they were forced into their illegal acts by the over fishing of their territorial waters by the evil big ships.
    But condemn their terrorist acts.

    When you start using phrases like "evil big ships", I know that you are only interested in posturing that you have the only solution to the problem.

    I take it that you would have no problem with searching out and finding and destroying the mother ships IF it was a joint UN effort.

    Doesn't have to be the UN, it could be NATO or an informal allience as I outlined above. The main point is that it involve major players, not just us and a "Coalition of the Willing" that involves Poland and other naval powers of similar standing.

    I only had to repeat myself a couple of times for you to get the concept, you were close to striking out, PPJ    ;-)

    Uh, got an estimate on how long it will take to get that through the UN and how much less than 95% of the cost we will bear?

    See above.  

    I opine it would never get through the UN and if it did our cost would be > 95%.

    See above.

    Parent

    Well, just how long do you (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 01:16:38 PM EST
    think it will be before Obama will start trying to get that done??

    And what amount of less than 95% of the cost do you think our part will be?

    And I understand your position. I just accepted the excuse you gave and moved on.

    Parent

    Re? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 01:35:38 PM EST

    Well, just how long do you (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 01:16:38 PM EST

    think it will be before Obama will start trying to get that done??

    My Magic 8-Ball is in the shop today, can I get back to you later on that one?

    And what amount of less than 95% of the cost do you think our part will be?

    Frankly, I'd pay real money to see one of your wild scenarios such as you've just outlined come true.

    If that also meant the pirates were eliminated or intimidated into behaving according to the laws of the seas, that would be the icing on the cake.

    And I understand your position. I just accepted the excuse you gave and moved on.

    Thank you for the insight and understanding you brought to this thread, Rhadamanthus.

    Parent

    Obama did. (none / 0) (#35)
    by getoffamycloud10 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 10:04:11 PM EST
    Unlike Bush, he did it effectively.

    Parent
    I think they were using FBI (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 03:59:02 PM EST
    crime rates....

    Of course with Holder in charge, who knows???

    ;-)

    Parent

    Your story falls apart at, (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by getoffamycloud10 on Sat Mar 12, 2011 at 10:06:59 PM EST
    "I think". Clearly, with respect to this or any other relevant topic, your next thought will be your first.

    Parent
    An observation (none / 0) (#23)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 07:39:41 PM EST
    "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

    Mark Twain.

    Parent

    please dont use comments (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 05:57:58 PM EST
    to reprint the work of others. A link and a short paragraph is all that's allowed.

    Parent
    OK, 100 words tops from now on. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 07:38:41 PM EST
    Your knowledge of "priates" (none / 0) (#41)
    by getoffamycloud10 on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 12:31:12 PM EST
    and priacy is as impressive as ever. If the topic ever comes up, I'll know who to contact.

    Parent
    I think might have something to do (none / 0) (#8)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 01:09:06 PM EST
    with the crime itself- I mean the laws on Piracy probably weren't written in our modern cultural milieu.

    Parent
    Where does it say that? (none / 0) (#2)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 09:01:25 AM EST
    Where does it say in the Constitution that one is guaranteed a trial by a "jury of one's peers"  All it states is that a defendant is entitled to an impartial jury. Period.

    Sixth Amendment:

    In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

    Case law says that jurors cannot be peremptorally challenged based on race or gender (i.e. Batson v. Kentucky), but can you please point me to the case law that says a foreign national is entitled to a jury made up of people of that same nationality?

    It is also my understanding that in cases of offenses not committed in any state (for example, offenses committed at sea), the place of trial may be determined by the Congress.

    Article III, Sec. 2 of the Constitution:

    The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.

    FYI - The UN Secretary General has issued a report on options that may be available in the future to deal with piracy. And the UN's top legal advisor has recommended special courts in Somalia and Tanzania.


    I have asked this question before (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 12:38:06 PM EST
    and not received an answer.

    It is my understanding that a "trial by peers" is an English law concept that was established to prevent the King/Gentry from taking people from where they lived and were known to a distant place where they were not known, thus removing any credibility they might have in a "he said/he said" claim.

    That does not appear to apply in US law???

    Parent

    Magna Carta (none / 0) (#7)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 12:55:43 PM EST
    Chapter 29 of the Magna Carta states:

    [29]"NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the Land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right. "

    Of course, as I pointed out, nowhere does the Constitution state that you have a right to a "jury of your peers". The Supreme Court has interpreted the Sixth Amendment to mean that potential jurors cannot be excluded based on race, gender, whether you own property or not, national origina, or ancestry status.  It has not however, as far as I remember, affirmatively held that a jury pool for a foreign national MUST include jurors from the defendant's background.  

    Basically, the SC's interpretation is that the juror pool has to encompass a wide spectrum of people.  That's all you need for the definition of "peers". It does NOT mean that for these defendants, there must be Somali nationals on the jury.

    Parent

    Well, the dictionary says: (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 02:07:01 PM EST
    Peer:
    a person who is equal to another in abilities, qualifications, age, background, and social status.

    Obviously OJ didn't want, or get, a jury of his peers.

    Obviously the pirates would want one.

    Parent

    The Magna Carta version (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by jbindc on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 02:08:33 PM EST
    if you'll notice, is capitalized, meaning "of the peerage".

    They didn't want rich land holders to be judged by peasants.

    Parent

    Heh (3.50 / 2) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 03:56:56 PM EST
    They still don't.

    Parent
    OJ had no right (none / 0) (#42)
    by getoffamycloud10 on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 12:37:33 PM EST
    to a jury comprised of 12 former nfl running backs.

    Parent
    His peers also did not (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Mar 13, 2011 at 01:22:55 PM EST
    come from south central LA much less the NFL. Check out where he lived and what he was doing after this football days were over.

    BTW - I have previously commented that I regard the OJ jury as a perfect example of jury nullification based on the jury wanting to do a pay back on the LA cops for years and years of bad treatment.

    And while I understand that what they did was wrong, I can't condemn them for it.

    Parent

    Thread cleaned of insults (none / 0) (#21)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 05:59:53 PM EST
    Harry is warned he will be put in time out if he doesn't stop the personal snipes at another commenter.

    if cost is the only criterion... (none / 0) (#26)
    by diogenes on Fri Mar 11, 2011 at 08:54:17 PM EST
    It doesn't cost one million to capture a pirate on a pirate ship, hold him in prison for a year for a trial, and execute him.  I don't think that there would be many questions about "eyewitness misidentifications" or the like; the case would be res ipsa loquitor, as I think you lawyers call it.