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Thursday Morning Open Thread

J is unavailable today. I should be around.

Open thread.

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    I love that the republicans and their (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:41:45 AM EST
    "repeal" vote has gotten about 30 seconds of air time in the last couple of days.  even on republican media FAUX news.


    The 1099 repeal passed. (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:54:38 AM EST
    So that's a good thing.  All I saw on the news was the Weather and the MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD OMGGG!!!!  Maybe we'll all realize our media is head to toe moronic.  But I doubt it.  

    Oh well.  Media Matters has turned into a great comedy site though.  

    Parent

    egyptian attorney general (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:23:44 AM EST
    freezes assets of several Mubarak supporters and announces they will be stopped from leaving the country.

    anyone else think (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:08:40 PM EST
    its sort of funny and clueless that the King of Jordan "shook up" his government by firing the Prime Minister and "hiring" a new one?

    Texas (none / 0) (#1)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:10:16 AM EST
    Storage (none / 0) (#3)
    by Demi Moaned on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:20:53 AM EST
    Well, yes, there are some reliably windy places. But until we come up with ways to store excess energy, sources such as wind and sun are at best an incomplete solution to our problems.

    Parent
    Drive along I70 in western KS (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:34:21 AM EST
    and you will see miles and miles of wind mills.

    The plains are windy.

    But beyond lack of storage we have lack of distribution facilities and the fact that there is a finite distance electric power generated at point A can be transmitted to point B, C, etc. (Ohms law and Kirchoff.)

    Parent

    Carbon fuel plant problems caused the blackouts (none / 0) (#15)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:40:46 AM EST
    The Associated Press is quoting Texas Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst on a possible cause of the lost capacity.

    Burst water pipes at two coal-fired powerplants forced them to shut down, triggering rolling power cutsacross the state, the lieutenant governor said Wednesday.

    Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst said this is something that "should not happen."

    Dewhurst said he was told that water pipes at two plants, Oak Grove and Sand Hill, forced them to cut electricity production. Natural gas power plants that should have provided back up had difficulty starting due to low pressure in the supply lines, also caused by the cold weather.



    Parent
    No doubt about it (none / 0) (#17)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:44:06 AM EST
    Nuke is the most reliable.

    Parent
    Not if you fail to insulate the pipes (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Rojas on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:35:32 AM EST
    If you want reliability we need to go back to the old way of doing things. Put the engineers back in charge instead of the venture capitalists.

    Parent
    Add to this the issues of distribution (none / 0) (#20)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:48:14 AM EST
    Jim mentions, and the west Texas wind turbines kept Amarillo well lit, but had no effect on Austin.

    As a side note, I've questioned the Glen Canyon Dam after the fact... it operates at about 33 percent capacity because of naturall transmission degradation issues. A dam with the potential to produce tremendous amouns of electricity thousands of miles from where it's needed... maybe not an epic fail, but a failure nonetheless.

    That's not addressing the death of Glen Canyon, or other environmental impacts, just the electrical generation.

    The flood gates should never have been closed.

    Parent

    Natural gas (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:49:01 AM EST
    transmission requires electric power to run the pumps to keep the pressure up.

    House of cards??

    Parent

    Nope (none / 0) (#32)
    by Rojas on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:19:11 AM EST
    With the addition of a small storage facility you can use a generator fired by natural gas.  

    Parent
    True, but for how long?? (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:32:26 AM EST
    Long enough to start the comressors (none / 0) (#67)
    by Rojas on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:47:07 AM EST
    and pressurize the pipe. You can fuel the generators from the transmission line after that.

    Parent
    Dunno (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:17:08 AM EST
    Natural gas power plants that should have provided back up had difficulty starting due to low pressure in the supply lines, also caused by the cold weather
    .

    Looks like the low pressure was caused an increase in NG demand. I don't know if the transmission compressors can do anything if the input capacity drops. I don't think they can.

    Anyway, I think it shows that we may be closer to the forest than we know and that the fire we set around in comfort and safety is smaller than we think.

    Parent

    Planned outages along (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Rojas on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 12:27:22 PM EST
    with an offset decrease in the price paid for day to day use for large industrial users do not maximize the ROI for the marketing companies that buy and sell but produce nothing.

    The deregulation model put to the sword system redundancies and safety factors built by the engineers that used to run the system.

    Put a MBA in charge and the first thing they ask is "why weatherize, it's expensive and it hardly ever gets that cold here?"

    Energy Future Holdings' plants accounted for less than half of the total missing capacity, said Allan Koenig, a spokesman for the Luminant power generation business. He said some equipment at the new coal plants is exposed to the elements and stopped working because of the cold

    I'm especially impressed by Dewhurst

    That's one of the things I'm going to spend my afternoon on, since the cold weather will be continuing for a few days, to make sure this doesn't continue.

    They've spent twenty years tearing the system apart and he plans to spend an entire afternoon looking into it.

    Parent

    WHat about electricity (none / 0) (#135)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:32:09 PM EST
    required to power nuclear power plants?

    Parent
    Link (none / 0) (#101)
    by Rojas on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 12:10:34 PM EST
    here

    Compressor Stations

    As mentioned, natural gas is highly pressurized as it travels through an interstate pipeline. To ensure that the natural gas flowing through any one pipeline remains pressurized, compression of this natural gas is required periodically along the pipe. This is accomplished by compressor stations, usually placed at 40 to 100 mile intervals along the pipeline. The natural gas enters the compressor station, where it is compressed by either a turbine, motor, or engine.

    Turbine compressors gain their energy by using up a small proportion of the natural gas that they compress. The turbine itself serves to operate a centrifugal compressor, which contains a type of fan that compresses and pumps the natural gas through the pipeline. Some compressor stations are operated by using an electric motor to turn the same type of centrifugal compressor. This type of compression does not require the use of any of the natural gas from the pipe, however it does require a reliable source of electricity nearby. Reciprocating natural gas engines are also used to power some compressor stations. These engines resemble a very large automobile engine, and are powered by natural gas from the pipeline. The combustion of the natural gas powers pistons on the outside of the engine, which serves to compress the natural gas.



    Parent
    who besides me is sick of hearing (none / 0) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:18:28 AM EST
    that we cant call out Mubarak because it will make all our other puppet dictators around the world nervous.

    I'm with ya... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:46:10 AM EST
    lots of the sickness on display in the coverage of Egypt...basically "don't tread on me, tread on them", international edition, on steroids.  

    And the worst part is I think the talking heads know not what they say...so conditioned that a simple concept like liberty and justice for all is totally lost on them.

    Parent

    What reason does Mubarak have to take (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:54:46 AM EST
    American "suggestions" seriously?  As Juan Cole points out, Mubarak has only to look at the non-consequence of Netanyahu thumbing his nose at the Obama administration's suggestions to believe there won't be any consequence for him, either:

    The Obama administration thought it had an agreement from Netanyahu to freeze settlements, and sent Joe Biden out to inaugurate the new peace promise. But when Biden came to Israel, he was humiliated by an Israeli announcement that it would build a new colony outside Jerusalem on land that Palestinians claimed. Then when the `settlement freeze' in the West Bank proper came to an end during negotiations, Netanyahu announced that it would not be extended.

    In other words, Netanyahu has since early 2009 taken billions in American money but told the US government to jump in a lake. The Obama administration did nothing, nothing whatsoever to punish this outrageous behavior.

    So it can come as no surprise that Obama, Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have been humiliated by Hosni Mubarak of Egypt. They told him to transition out of power. Instead, he on Wednesday and Thursday initiated the Massacre of Liberation Square, which has wounded nearly 1,000 people, most of them peaceful protesters.

    Just as Netanyahu takes Washington's billions but then p!sses all over American policy objectives with regard to erecting a Palestinian State Lite, so Mubarak has stuffed tens of billions of dollars from Washington into his government's pockets but has humiliated and endangered the United States.

    When Netanyahu steals Palestinian property or deprives Gaza Palestinians of their livelihoods, and when Mubarak uses American military aid to crush a popular demonstration, they underline to the peoples of the Middle East that their corrupt and unacceptable situation is underwritten by Washington. That message generates fury at the United States.

    As long as the president and the Congress are willing to lie down and serve as doormats for America's supposed allies in the Middle East- out of a conviction of the usefulness of their clients and the inexpensiveness of putting them on retainer- there will be anti-Americanism and security threats that force us to subject ourselves to humiliating patdowns and scans at the airport and an erosion of our civil liberties every day. We are only one step away of being treated, with "protest zones" and "Patriot Acts" just as badly as the peaceful Egyptian protesters have been.

    Agree or disagree with respect to our policies on Israel, it's hard to ignore the dynamic at play, or the silence regarding the billions in aid we're sending to Egypt.


    Parent

    I doubt very much (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:59:36 AM EST
    there has been "silence" concerning out aid.  I strongly suspect that the reserved actions of the army and their role today in separating the two side even using gunfire to do it and keep the protesters safe is the result of instructions from us that do this or our 3million+ plus per day goes bye bye.


    Parent
    Then today Pentagon (none / 0) (#136)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:33:27 PM EST
    states that it has no intention of withholding any of $ for Egypt. So what does it matter what Admin says about who should leave power?

    Parent
    I don't think it's up to the Pentagon, (none / 0) (#139)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:41:51 PM EST
    I think it's a matter for Congress, which has the power of the purse.

    The Administration doesn't have the only carrots and sticks here. Congress holds the power of the purse, and they can cut off Egyptian foreign aid whenever they like. Sen. Patrick Leahy, who chairs the Senate Appropriations subcommittee on the State Department and international programs, threatened this cutoff on MSNBC last night.

    "We have a lot of aid in the pipeline now, that pipeline would be turned off," Leahy said. "There is nobody, Republican or Democratic in the Senate and I suspect in the House, that's going to vote for an aid package for Egypt under these circumstances." [...]

    Leahy laid out conditions for continued aid to Egypt, which receives some $1.3 billion each year from the United States.

    "Aid will continue to Egypt if you have somebody that comes in with credibility that tries to help the people trying to help those that are unemployed, those who are not being fed, somebody who wants to try and bring some order so one of their largest cash projects in Egypt tourism can come back," Leahy said.

    But the problem, as David Dayen points out in his post, is that much of that aid then comes right back to defense contractors, and cutting off aid is going to mean dealing with them.

    And I'm pretty sure I know how that would turn out...

    Parent

    it not the decision of the pentagon (none / 0) (#143)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:56:45 PM EST
    its the decision of congress and two important senators from different parties said yesterday it absolutely would stop.


    Parent
    The point that I was (none / 0) (#148)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 05:07:22 PM EST
    making has to do with undercutting any influence the Admin may have by public statements made, whoever has the power of the purse.  

    Parent
    What purpose does (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:21:33 AM EST
    "calling him out" serve? Honest question. I have not blogged about Egypt because frankly, I have nbo idea what the US should say or do in response to the events.

    Parent
    oh just venting (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:29:45 AM EST
    I actually think the administration has done a passable job.  what I mean by hearing that is that is what I heard from the "mass media" all freaking day yesterday.

    I am honestly stunned by the open condescending colonialism being expressed by people I previously assumed to be pretty smart.  it seems our vaunted values a malleable when it comes to our own comfort.
    read gas prices.


    Parent

    I actually heard (none / 0) (#11)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:34:22 AM EST
    someone on msnbc say "not all countries should be democratic".

    thats a quote.  I almost fell out of my chair.  not that he said it but that it was not challenged.


    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:41:04 AM EST
    I don't watch or read any of that stuff.

    William Goldman has got this one - "Nobody knows nuthin."

    As for me, Samuel Goldwyn captures it - "If I look confused it is because I am thinking."  

    Parent

    I had no choice (none / 0) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:44:51 AM EST
    yesterday because I still dont have a computer at home.  I know I know.  I am a slug.  

    anyway.  now I REALLY appreciate al jazzera because the mindless clueless idiotic coverage yesterday where the biggest event was Anderson Coopers hair getting mussed made me want to commit violence against my tv

    Parent

    I'm not an AC basher (none / 0) (#27)
    by brodie on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:03:33 AM EST
    -- fact is, he's there on the ground doing his job at a fair amount of personal risk, or was until violently run off by pro-Mubarak rent-a-thugs, while we can all safely sit back at our computers in the US and chuckle about his hair getting mussed.

    The AC roughing up coverage served to clarify for tv viewers exactly who was perpetrating the violence in Egypt while it also offered a sympathetic and identifying moment for American viewers, seeing Americans and not just anti-govt Egyptians getting the Mubarak Treatment.  And to his credit I thought, afterwards he didn't seem emotionally too upset nor willing to overly dramatize and personalize what had happened.

    CNN, from occasional viewing in recent days, is actually doing itself proud with AC, his female producer/reporter who was also roughed up, and honest reporters like Ben Wedeman who've been doing their best to get the story while calling it plain about which side is fomenting the violence.  

    Parent

    un huh (none / 0) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:04:32 AM EST
    Non responsive, Cap'n (none / 0) (#34)
    by brodie on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:20:43 AM EST
    And it looks like a FPer at FDL agrees with me about CNN's coverage clarifying things that our day late/dollar short Foggy Bottom apparently is still puzzled about

    "She emphasized, again, our condemnation of the violence that occurred today, encouraged the government to hold those responsible fully accountable for this violence," Crowley told reporters. "We don't know, at this point, who did it."

    Yet throughout the day, reports were very clear about "who did it" - even if Washington has stopped watching Al Jazeera, don't they monitor CNN where Anderson Cooper, Ivan Watson and Ben Wedeman were providing very clear reports about who attacked them and the pro-democracy people.



    Parent
    its funny you think I FDL disagreeing with me (none / 0) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:23:48 AM EST
    is a problem for me.  the american coverage of this has sucked.  sucked. SUCKED.


    Parent
    having said that (none / 0) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:25:21 AM EST
    it did improve a smidge after he sent in the calvary yesterday.  I suppose even they couldnt ignore that.

    Parent
    Jake Tapper was (none / 0) (#137)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:37:27 PM EST
    decent last night on Charlie Rose; so was a fellow from the New Democratic Century -- can't recall name.

    Parent
    one other thought (none / 0) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:56:17 AM EST
    confused is probably a healthy state right now but some things I think are so obvious.  
    like the fact that this is not religious zealots.  BUT the longer the chaos is allowed to go on the more likely the zealots will have a larger role.

    this needs to end.  and I believe it will.  I realize my  48 hours are up but I still think he will be gone this week.  for one thing I think everyone knows that if he is still there when prayers let out on friday the country is going to explode.


    Parent

    Twitter's where it's at (none / 0) (#39)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:24:50 AM EST
    the coverage there has been remarkable.  Some Americans are doing a solidarity march in Egypt today (photo).  You know, the ones who are not gas-obsessed.

    Egyptians are disillusioned with our so-called commitment to democracy.  I don't think we're out of opportunities to change their minds on that, but I think a statement of support would be helpful.  What happened yesterday to the protesters was by any standard terrible.  Our response was rather tepid - how Mubarak handles the protesters will show us who he is?  As that Coors Light commercial goes (how does that damn commercial go)...we know who they are.  The sky is blue.  Etc.  

    We need to get our sh*t together, IMO.  And god, GIBBS NEEDS TO GO.

    Parent

    it has been good. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:27:38 AM EST
    I think a clear message is coming.  perhaps that is just being hopeful.  but I think it is.  three important senators including McCain called for him to step down yesterday.  that was clearly in cooperation with the administration.  it happened right after a meeting with Obama.

    Parent
    I hope so. (none / 0) (#43)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:35:05 AM EST
    But nobody gives a sh*t about McCain.  I mean really.  Gibbs was ridiculous yesterday.  They are talking to Mubarak, not the people.

    The WH is going to do what they're going to do.  I imagine Obama will speak on the subject today or tomorrow though.  IMO, he needs to strongly denounce the state-supported violence, at least.

    Parent

    Do you actually believe that this will (none / 0) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:36:26 AM EST
    lead to a good outcome for democracy.. what we see as western cultural values... for the people of Egypt and the rest of the world?

    Parent
    There seem to be only 2 ways to serve democracy (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:21:00 AM EST
    in your world view:

    1. wait for your dictator to decide to give it to you peacefully and voluntarily

    2. Have the U.S. invade and tear down the existing order, and then nation-build

    People demanding it for themselves and relying on their own civil resources to create it is too scary. Even when their resources are considerable, as in Egypt.

    Parent
    I have offered no solutions (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:43:11 AM EST
    because I have none, or at least none we can afford.

    We are suffering from our logical and necessary use of whoever and whatever we could find as allies during the cold war.

    The other question becomes, what could we have done to prevent the rise of radical Islam, given that we didn't want to invade the ME during the 50's???

    The final question is this. Given the unrest and radicalism during the Christian Reformation, is the radicalism of some Muslims a similar event??

    If so, how do we hang on until it plays itself out, given that there is no new Prophet, such as Christ was, for Islam to change and reform around??

    Parent

    wow (none / 0) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:44:40 AM EST
    it would take years to unpack that.  seriously.

    Parent
    HUH (none / 0) (#70)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:56:15 AM EST
    Islam does not necessarily function in the same way as Christianity.  Various religions have different dynamics and follow different rules.  So comparing it to Christianity doesn't make a lot of sense.  Especially Christianity 500 years ago.  

    Islamic scholarship can be conservative, liberal, etc.  Seriously, there is plenty of good writing on the various movements in Islam out there.  Or just look up Wahhabism on Wikipedia.  Or read about the Regensburg Lecture and the debate that followed.

    Learn about Islam and keep an open mind.

    Parent

    I understand that there are variations (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:08:59 AM EST
    and there are various sects. But the facts are that moderate Islam has not been able to control radical Islam has been notably absent in much of the discussion.

    And I am not comparing Islam to Christianity, but I am wondering if the actions of the various groups aren't very similar to the acts of the various Christian groups 500 or so years ago.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#82)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:22:58 AM EST
    you don't present any examples from the past as points of comparison.  I mean, I truly have no idea why you are comparing the Protestant Reformation to the rise of Wahhabism in certain nation states.  If you are interested in the extremist aspects of Islam, read about Wahhabism and Sayyid Qutb.

    Parent
    Compare??? (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:01:48 PM EST
    Revolutions have a long history of flying apart and devouring those who start them. Start with the French. Go to Russia.

    Look at the Reformation and you will see different radical groups and not so radical and status quo vs liberal, etc., etc.

    Parent

    What is your assessment re American (none / 0) (#129)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:03:30 PM EST
    Revolution?

    Parent
    The American Revolution was (2.00 / 1) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 07:29:56 PM EST
    by people with a long association with self rule.

    Parent
    Remember that our revolution (none / 0) (#156)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:09:18 PM EST
    didn't work too well at first.  The Articles of Confederation failed, and it took us until 1789 to come up with the Constitution.  

    Even then, lots of resistance to federal powers (i.e., the Whiskey Rebellion in Washington's time.  And we would be a far different country had Washington not had the humilitas to refuse the push to give him quasi-royal powers and status.

    Plus, a lot of Americans loyal to their country -- England -- were subjected to great physical suffering, confiscation of their property, and the like.  That's why there are "Tory towns" of their descendants to this day in Canada.

    We were a fortunate people.  Many revolutions do not so succeed in the end.  We were given, for some reason, the time to make it work the second time around.  And it continues to work because, again, of the humilitas of the Founders who wrote a Constitution that admitted their imperfections with the inclusion of the process of amendment.  If not, we would have had a few coups by now, too.  And our luck well might have run out.

    Parent

    Look (none / 0) (#132)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:12:44 PM EST
    these are all surface comparisons.  I mean, really

    and you will see different radical groups and not so radical and status quo vs liberal, etc., etc.

    come on.  That isn't especially convincing me that the Protestant Reformation is comparable to the rise of radical Islam.

    Also you are talking about two different things:  the protests in Egypt, and the rise of radical Islam.  You see these as linked in some way?  If so, how?  

    Parent

    I doubt that I could convince (2.00 / 1) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 07:18:34 PM EST
    you and am not trying to.

    My point is that as Christianity "reformed" a large number of groups, some radical, some not, formed and became active. Some disappeared, others remain until this day.

    I see Islam as acting in a similar manner.

    The question is this. When and how will the radical Muslims be marginalized as the radical Christians were.

    The riots in Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen and Jordan,appear to be triggered by economics. The price of food. However, there is little doubt that the Muslim Brotherhood, and other radicals, are now involved and will seek to take control, just as radicals did in France and Russia.  

    Parent

    The most convincing (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 12:04:14 AM EST
    response so far.  What I'm trying to say is that you have to look at the dialog different interpretations of Islam have with one another.  If you don't know what they're saying, and what factors (politics, economy, etc.) are motivating that conversation, you'll never have the answer.  And there are plenty of influential Americans who are not interested in learning about those voices, and where they're located.  Islam, and I am not an expert (but may be more familiar than some), is a very textually based religion....so if you don't know the texts and how they're interpreted, figuring out the answer is never going to happen.  How can I speculate on a Christian spat if I've never read the Bible, and am unfamiliar with the differences between Catholics and Protestants, for example?  Islam and the Bible are not the same and political movements that stem from them are different.  The protesters in Egypt right now are speaking our language - civic society, democracy, etc.  I don't expect that language will be suddenly co-opted by a much more radical language - yet.  This protest is being led by liberal, intelligent, secularly-oriented folks.  Are they suddenly going to be radicalized just because the Muslim Brotherhood is present?  I don't get the sense that people in Egypt are angry that their country hasn't been "Islamic enough."  A legitimately elected democratic government in Egypt that reflects freedom of information can only be a good thing IMO.  Right now reports are coming out that we're trying to push out Mubarak - now.  I think that's great and the support for that is reflected in the various accounts I've been following on Twitter.  Yeah Twitter isn't the alpha or omega of the world but it's a great reflection of the people who want to connect.  The Egyptian people aren't our enemy unless we make them our enemy.  They are smart, they have a vision....ideologically IMO they're on our side, we just have to keep them there.  Egyptians have a positive attitude re: our country.

    One Pew poll does not an encompassing understanding of Egypt make.  Unless we want to just gamble on hope and fear, we need to learn.  

    Parent

    Accurate information about (none / 0) (#168)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 01:30:11 PM EST
    any subject is a good thing.  

    And I have no doubt that accurate information about Egypt is scarce. That is why I hope for the best and look at history as a guide on what to expect.

    As I noted, radicals taking over a revolution is not unusual and has happened time and again. I mentioned France and Russia. I add Germany (Nazis) and Iran. The most organized and effective group usually wins in politics and life.

    In Egypt it appears that would be the Army and the Muslim Brotherhood. If the Arny allows itself to be co-opted by the Muslim Brotherhood then Egypt will become a theocracy like Iran.

    How do we prevent that?? I hope that Obama is saying very quietly to the Army that the Muslim Brotherhood being part of government is not acceptable and would result in loss of US aid.

    But I doubt that he is. Indications are that the Muslim Brotherhood is being cleansed of their sins by the media, probably as requested by the State Department.

    Parent

    Re: Ignorance (none / 0) (#171)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 10:05:01 PM EST
    And I have no doubt that accurate information about Egypt is scarce.

    Uh, we're not talking about North Korea or another closed society.

    In Egypt it appears that would be the Army and the Muslim Brotherhood. If the Arny allows itself to be co-opted by the Muslim Brotherhood then Egypt will become a theocracy like Iran.

    But since accurate information about Egypt is scarce, how can we trust any analysis you make based on such limited information?

    Here's a good analysis from the LA Times:

    To be fair, Western powers have reason to worry that a democratic government in Egypt will be less amenable to their security interests. The Muslim Brotherhood has said it has no leadership aspirations. However, the group, known for its inflammatory anti-Israel rhetoric, is likely to be part of a broad-based national unity government.

    But Westerners should not lose sleep over the Brotherhood's inclusion. A pragmatic organization at its core, the group will avoid getting tied up in foreign policy, knowing that this might cause the international community to withdraw support. Also on the line is $1.5 billion in annual U.S. assistance, an amount Egyptians will need even more after the devastation of their economy in the past week.

    That said, with or without the Brotherhood, a democratic government will reflect popular preferences, and it happens to be the case that most Egyptians, secular and Islamist alike, share a rather pronounced dislike of Israel. This may introduce some tensions between Egypt and Israel, but it will not threaten the peace treaty the two countries signed more than three decades ago. Egyptian opposition figures across the political spectrum know this is a line that cannot be crossed.

    In any case, it is impossible to have everything all at once. There will be tradeoffs. Some tradeoffs are worth it. More democracy in Egypt may give the U.S. headaches. But if Mubarak tries to cling to power in the coming weeks and months -- against the wishes of hundreds of thousands of defiant, determined Egyptians -- the U.S. will have a far larger problem. America will always have an "Islamist dilemma." But it can be managed. Egypt is a good place to start trying.

    Click or LA Times Me

    But I doubt that he is. Indications are that the Muslim Brotherhood is being cleansed of their sins by the media, probably as requested by the State Department.

    Gotta link to back up your assertion about "indications"?

    Parent

    What's going on in Egypt has little (none / 0) (#138)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:41:48 PM EST
    to do with 'radical' Islam.  What's going on there -- in part -- is fast-growing economy with only the few at the top benefiting; vast unemployment and lack of opportunity, even for many with university education.  Real democracy is always messy.  

    Parent
    One more time (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 07:21:50 PM EST
    I hope you are right.

    I see nothing that gives me any confidence. All the history I can think of gives me no confidence.

    Parent

    Understood (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:04:57 PM EST
    At Juan Cole's website, he states:

    A recent Pew poll found that 59% of Egyptians favor democracy in almost all situations. And fully 60 percent are very or somewhat worried about the specter of religious extremism in their society. About 61% do not even think there is a struggle between modernizers and religion in Egypt.

    There is a wealth of background information on Egypt in the last few days' posts at this cite. There are also references to other materials on background. You may not agree with all of Cole's views, but you can find a wealth of factual info.  

    Parent

    I have no doubt that the majority of (2.00 / 1) (#161)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:32:09 PM EST
    Egyptians favor democracy, but the "almost all situations" is a rather large qualifier.

    Parent
    Don't get in the way of PPJ's fear-mongering (none / 0) (#165)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 08:38:51 AM EST
    by bringing facts to the table.

    Parent
    Noting qualifiers (none / 0) (#167)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 01:15:28 PM EST
    is fear mongering?

    That's a stretch, even for you.

    Parent

    Thanks as always for the feedback :-) (none / 0) (#169)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 01:42:12 PM EST
    The qualifier was probably (none / 0) (#170)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 06:52:03 PM EST
    built into the wording of the questions, not the answers.  Ever answer any polls?  It's so annoying to do so, because so often the way the questions are worded by itself requires you to fit into the conceptual framework of the authors, rather than provide information as you, the respondent sees it.

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 05, 2011 at 11:42:19 AM EST
    Of course "probably" is a qualifier.

    Parent
    Hang on to what? (none / 0) (#159)
    by ruffian on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:14:25 PM EST
    Radical Islam is not an existential threat to the United States. I'm really not afraid of it. I have a higher chance of getting killed in a car accident tomorrow than being hurt by a radical Islamist.

    Parent
    Assuming success by the radicals (none / 0) (#162)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:34:56 PM EST
    can you say the same 10 years from now???

    This a long game.

    Parent

    We must all fight the menace of radical Islam (none / 0) (#164)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 08:37:27 AM EST
    and begin by checking under the bed for jihadis every night before going to sleep.

    Parent
    The troops in Afghanistan and (none / 0) (#173)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 05, 2011 at 11:43:24 AM EST
    Iraq will disagree with you.

    Parent
    Yes, (none / 0) (#174)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Feb 06, 2011 at 08:35:24 AM EST
    they wouldn't recommend checking under the bed for jihadis every night, either.

    Parent
    "We're fighting them over there (none / 0) (#175)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Feb 06, 2011 at 08:38:23 AM EST
    so that we don't have to fight them over here."

    is so 2003.

    Parent

    Yes, you have supported them (none / 0) (#176)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 06, 2011 at 09:11:18 AM EST
    so well, eh?

    Parent
    Thanks for wanting to (none / 0) (#177)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Feb 06, 2011 at 09:23:52 AM EST
    monitor my patriotism for me, but I'll have to politely decline your offer.  

    :-)

    Parent

    yes I do (none / 0) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:38:40 AM EST
    I hope you are right (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:45:47 AM EST
    But I have seen nothing prior to this that indicates that.

    Parent
    sadly (none / 0) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:51:26 AM EST
    I think that is as much a comment on the american coverage of this as it is a comment on you.

    Parent
    I have paid almost zero (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:55:09 AM EST
    attention to the coverage. No one knows what is happening.

    I'm just looking back at history.

    Perhaps you have an example???

    Parent

    I would suggest you turn (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:58:40 AM EST
    on al jazzera and watch what is actually happening.

    there is in fact very little historical precedence for what is happening in egypt.  that was most evident yesterday when he sent in the calvary and they were pulled off their horses and camels and beaten to a pulp.  and THEN taken to the army who arrested them.  that was barely reported.  that they arrested them.

    Parent

    I remember Iran (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:14:28 AM EST
    It took months before the radicals assumed power but with 20-20 hind site it was evident that they would.

    Parent
    ya (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:17:12 AM EST
    I remember Iran too.  this is not Iran.

    Parent
    It's comparing (none / 0) (#147)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 04:51:45 PM EST
    apple and oak trees to compare the unrest in Egypt to what went on in Iran.

    Like the Bourbons, PPJ has learned nothing and forgotten nothing.

    Parent

    It's an odious idea, but ... (none / 0) (#5)
    by Demi Moaned on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:21:58 AM EST
    until now I hadn't heard anyone saying it. Maybe you listen to too much mass media.

    Parent
    no the sophisticated (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:19:30 AM EST
    media calls them "allies in the region"

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:24:09 AM EST
    I haven't heard that particular statement but it sounds just like another Obama excuse like we can't do the public option or we can't do this or that. His motto for '12 should be "Yes, we can't"!!!

    Parent
    Obama has in fact been good on this (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:21:57 AM EST
    he is doing exactly what he should  be doing so far IMO.  letting "senators" call for him to step down.

    I think that will change if he is not gone soon.

    in any case we should be thanking the gods that he is in that chair and not a republican.  who would probably have already sent in the drones.


    Parent

    I'm not so sure (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:58:54 AM EST
    that he can't be convinced to send troops in by the neocons after all the caving I have seen. I really don't trust him anymore than I do them simply because he has backed off pretty much everything he has said in the past.

    Parent
    I am (none / 0) (#57)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:00:20 AM EST
    And stop DOD from (none / 0) (#140)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:43:34 PM EST
    issuing statements about not withholding any $ from Egypt

    Parent
    WTF (none / 0) (#6)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:22:51 AM EST
    does this have to do with wind power?

    The Chinese are currently eating our lunch in that area, BTW, but don't worry your beautiful mind over that fact.

    BEIJING, Sept. 8 (UPI) -- Offshore wind power is gaining ground in China.

    Chinese energy companies are expected to submit bids Friday for four offshore wind power projects with a total installed capacity of 1,000 megawatts, representing a combined investment of $3.06 billion, China Daily reports.

    The proposed projects follow on the heels of the 102-megawatt, $337 million Donghai Bridge Wind Farm, China's first major offshore initiative, which began transmitting power to the national grid in July. The project consists of 34 turbines, each with a 3-megawatt capacity.

    While China recently overtook Germany as the second largest wind power developer after the United States, offshore offers a huge potential.

    "China has the largest wind resources in the world, and three-quarters of them are offshore," Barbara Finamore, director of the Natural Resources Defense Council's Beijing office, told Scientific American.

    Click or Wind Me

    China (none / 0) (#26)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:59:01 AM EST

    China engages in uneconomic crony capitalism and corporate welfare in this area so we should too?  Have you got stock in General Electric?

    Parent
    Investing in infrastructure (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Rojas on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:23:54 AM EST
    is "uneconomic crony capitalism and corporate welfare" these days, eh? I remember when there was a much better class of conservatives to hang out with.

    Parent
    "Investing" (none / 0) (#46)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:37:35 AM EST

    "Investing" is the just the new name for crony capitalism and corporate welfare.  The reality has not changed, only the name.  Do you have stock in General Electric?

    Parent
    I have stock in leaving this country (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Rojas on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:48:56 AM EST
    in better shape than I found it. I see it as a personal debt each generation owes the next.

    I have no stock in GE but I have to wonder if maybe you didn't have some in Enron? And if you did, why didn't you learn a damn thing from it?

    Parent

    I had/have no stock in Enron or G.E. (none / 0) (#54)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:57:10 AM EST
    .

    Although I did learn that Enron was a big and early Cap and Trade supporter.  They stood to make billions.  

    Unfortunately for Enron and fortunately for the us, the rent paying class, that piece of corporate welfare did not become law.

    .

    Parent

    Are you for real? (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Dadler on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:25:28 AM EST
    You are going to claim that the USA is not a crony capitalist nation (who got bailed out and who didn't?) and that it has no corporate welfare, when we are the nation that wrote the book on transferring public wealth into private pockets.

    It is astounding that you can have grown up a free American.  Truly astounding.

    Unbelievable.

    Parent

    I never said (none / 0) (#47)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:40:53 AM EST

    I never said there was no corporate welfare.  I am just amazed if corporate welfare is called "investing" then its all just fine and dandy.

    Parent
    No, but I got a tiny elephant and (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:15:58 AM EST
    can line dance.

    ;-)

    Parent

    The Chinese are laughing (none / 0) (#146)
    by Harry Saxon on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 04:47:17 PM EST
    at folks like you, PPJ :-)

    Parent
    In a word yes (none / 0) (#100)
    by vicndabx on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:57:08 AM EST
    and whatever else it takes to avoid being left behind in this burgeoning industry.

    Dithering about while we worry about "principles" won't do much for generations of US Citizens that follow us.

    Parent

    Enough corporate welfare... (none / 0) (#103)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 12:34:56 PM EST
     will cause any industry to burgeon.

    That is no reason switch from low cost power to high cost job killing and unreliable alternatives when there are better options.

    BTW, any company or industry that consumes more wealth than it produces is bad for society.

    .

    Parent

    Generation iii thru III++ reactors, (none / 0) (#115)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:31:15 PM EST
    and even generation iv reactors are safer, prodice less waste, and shorter-lasting waste. some of these reactors have been used in nuclear submarines-- the Sovier Alfa class, for example, used a lead-cooled reactor. Salt reactors have been made, IIRC (I follow buclear technology froma layman's standpoint.

    Problem is, in the US, these generation II reactors are not particularly safe, not inexpensive, and the 'bang for the buck' isn't there.

    I think Germany is operating a graphite pebble reactor (high temperature), but there have been some isues with it.

    Parent

    Hey Kdog! (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:29:20 AM EST
    You gonna organize a protest when the new NY no smoking law goes into effect??

    I'm a lone wolf... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:37:24 AM EST
    old buddy, not an organizer...but I will be practicing more civil disobedience...at this point whats one more law to break in the pursuit of happiness:)

    As for the law and the air quality in NYC...give me a shake when they ban the gasoline engine, thats what turns the white snow black...not cigs.

    Parent

    BTW... (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 09:43:26 AM EST
    the bastards can't get me down today, I'm locked in for Mexico...3/16 departure.  Even the Wall St. gambler induced $210.00 fuel surcharge on the tix can't get me down...I see my love light shining at the end of winter's tunnel.  Woo Hoo!

    Parent
    Disfruta reunirse ustedes. (none / 0) (#58)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:08:14 AM EST
    besos y abrazos a su novia (en amistad solamente;-)

    Parent
    Si amigo... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:19:54 AM EST
    amistad solamente...no matrimonio para mi!

    Ahora encontrar el casita perfecto en Sayulita, para nuestro escape del mundo realidad. Tranquilo y romantico.

    Parent

    That cracked me up (none / 0) (#60)
    by CoralGables on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:23:19 AM EST
    I see my love light shining at the end of winter's tunnel.

    Sounds like a line right out of a paperback romance novel. I see a potential author in the making for the back shelf at the newspaper stand.

    Parent

    What can I say CG... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:45:27 AM EST
    she brings out the cheesy in me:)

    Parent
    He's got it bad, real bad. (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:36:58 AM EST
    A lot of that going around with the pirate (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 06:22:21 PM EST
    brotherhood. Dunno about the sisterhood, they don't seem to live their love lives at talkleft.

    Parent
    Have mucho fun, poker dude! (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:47:14 AM EST
    Careful of the man (none / 0) (#134)
    by republicratitarian on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:25:59 PM EST
    Shiver... (none / 0) (#141)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:44:20 PM EST
    that frightening...rubber glove treatment with a side of forced medicating...the invasion of bodily sovereignty value meal.

    And a doctor who gave an oath to first do no harm involved...yikes.

    I alwys thought police and politicians should take a similar "first do no harm" oath to doctors...not that oaths mean much, see your link, but a good gesture and reminder nonetheless.

    Parent

    Enjoy your trip (none / 0) (#142)
    by republicratitarian on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:48:11 PM EST
    I'm going to Cozumel on a cruise in April, my first time in Mexico and my first cruise.

    Parent
    Nice one... (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 03:09:12 PM EST
    this little long distance love affair of mine started on a Carribean cruise...I love 'em, and not flying is a huge bonus, I assume you can drive to the ship right, sailing out of FLA?  

    Any other ports of call?  Cozumel was one spot in the Yucatan I didn't get too...but I saw it from the mainland, beaches are sick bro.

    You enjoy too gringo loco, and hit us with a happy recap when you get back.  

    Parent

    Si Senior (none / 0) (#145)
    by republicratitarian on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 03:14:10 PM EST
    btw (none / 0) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:38:23 AM EST
    we got about a foot of snow.  hard to tell because it was so blown and drifted.  for example.  I could not open either my front or back door.  fortunately I was able to go out thru the garage and excavate the doors.  but even tho they were buried the driveway and walk mostly had about an inch or two.

    so it sort of balanced out.

    now it subzero and it has turned into granite.  so if you have not cleared the walk by now is you aint clearing it without dynamite.


    Your kid missed 9 days of school... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:43:35 AM EST
    that's a caging in Pittsburgh.  

    Well at least one in Pittsburgh knows the truth. (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:51:47 AM EST
    Jim D Morgan
    I guess nobody understands its about the money. If the child is not at school, that school dose not get any money for that day for that child that's what its all about. If they cared about the children, the U S wouldn't have one of the lowest G.P.A. Averages as a hole. Our children would be in the top 5.

    But I gotta say it looks like JD missed a few days.

    Parent

    He's got a point... (none / 0) (#75)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:16:11 AM EST
    attendance is all about benjamins for school districts...its why NYC schools rarely close for snow, while the richer 'burbs close schools at the first flake.

    Caging as a response to poor attendance is pretty sick stuff.

    But at least they didn't lock up the kid....thats saying something these days.

    Parent

    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#74)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:13:31 AM EST
    Not necessarily for the kid missing school, but for this:

    However, Heiser didn't show up for court appearances or pay a $200 fine. She finally showed up for a payment determination hearing and was ordered to pay the fine in $45 increments.

    "I understand the fine part, but to go to jail because you bring your kids on vacation - you shouldn't have to do that," she said.

    She failed to make those payments the last four months and a bench warrant was issued Jan. 6. A sheriff came to her house the next day and took her to jail.

    So let's recap.  She missed court hearings.  Then she went and got a payment plan for a $200 fine.  Then she didn't pay for 4 months.

    Not quite going to jail for the kid missing 9 unexcused days. (There's also no excuse for her not informing the school if they were on a family trip either, but that's a different story).

    Parent

    As I was told... (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:17:54 AM EST
    when discussing Kuch's lawsuit...it's all fruit from the poisonous tree of abscence being considered a criminal matter...thats what set the caging in motion.

    Parent
    Keep in mind (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:25:21 AM EST
    This isn't about the kid missing school.  All she had to do is let the school know the kid wouldn't be there, so it would be an excused absence, and this wouldn't be an issue.  But she didn't - 9 times (in three months of school - that's completely irresponsible).

    Seriously, this woman is not a martyr to some cause.  All she had to do was make a couple of phone calls.  She didn't do that.  Then she had to show up to court.  She didn't do that.  Then she had to pay a small fine and the court even broke it up into smaller payments.  She didn't do that.

    At what point do you hold this woman responsible for anything?  Maybe she shouldn't go to jail, but what do you suggest for a woman who willfully a)disregards the law, b) doesn't show up for court (it's not an optional exercise), c) then refuses to pay the fine.  Should the judge just say, "Oh, okay," and let her just not do anything?

    Parent

    Well, if we can demand people (3.50 / 2) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:06:04 PM EST
    but health insurance and fine them if they don't then they can demand you tell then why your child didn't go to a state school and fine you if you don't.

    Parent
    Since all we are talkin' about here... (none / 0) (#84)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:30:28 AM EST
    are 9 measley days of school, I see nothing to hold the woman responsible for, really.

    So she didn't send in the note...all the school has to do is speak to the mother and check on the abscences, with a kindly reminder to advise the school in the future...how do the tentacles of law even get involved in something like this?  I mean seriously...its mind boggling.

    Parent

    Parental units should sched. vacation (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:40:20 AM EST
    when school isn't in session.  How is the school to educate an absent student?

    Parent
    There is more to an education... (none / 0) (#91)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:47:46 AM EST
    than sitting in a classroom preparing for a stupid standardized test.  Vacations can be very educational.

    Laws requiring school attendance never sat well with me...borders on mandated indoctrination.  If a parent has their own lesson to teach their child on any given school day, including the lesson of leisure, I got no problem with that...basic parental right.

    Parent

    The kids we tutor on Monday nights (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:52:43 AM EST
    are frequently pulled out of school for longer than the school's scheduled break.   These same kids are below grade level in math and reading.  Will probably never catch up.  Of course, being gone from school may not be the cause.  But they do need all the help available.  

    Parent
    Might be part of the cause... (none / 0) (#109)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:09:21 PM EST
    but then again, we graduate kids from high school with near perfect attendance who can barely read.  Attendance does not equal learning, though it would improve the odds, depending on the school and the teachers.  Some schools you're better off at home learning from soap operas.

    At the end of the day it is a parent's responsibility to teach their kid to read and write and other tools of survival...sucks for the kids who lose the birth lottery and get sh*tty parents, whaddya gonna do, but I'm confident fines and courts and cages ain't the answer.  

    If I was this woman I'd pull the kid outta school completely and home school him after the stunts the state pulled...it would harden my heart to their systems of justice and education, as Linbaba might say:)

    Parent

    At least some of the kids in tutoring (none / 0) (#110)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:16:15 PM EST
    can't really look to their parents for help re learning English or math, as some of the parents don't speak English and have minimal education--grade school in Mexico.  

    Parent
    That's where you come in... (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:25:43 PM EST
    if I never told you, those kids are lucky to have people like you.

    I was blessed with a big sister who loved to play school...I went to kindergarten ahead of the curve, and stayed ahead through elementary, courtesy of her lesson plans...school was easy compared to playtime.  Birth lottery score for me:)  For those not so fortunate, I honestly believe state crackdowns on parenting do more harm than good...only making a bad situation worse.

    I mean ya think this lady wants any part of the school or courts or state after this?  Another hardened heart, ya can catch more flies with honey...I understand that takes the patience of a saint on the part of the state...but it is better to be loved than feared in my book.  

    Parent

    I don't have an opinion on PA law and (none / 0) (#114)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:31:04 PM EST
    how it applies to this mom.  Just think the kid should be in school.

    Parent
    So do I... (none / 0) (#118)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:39:45 PM EST
    ya lose me at making missing days a criminal matter...fear of punishment is not the only motivator known to mankind, in case PA doesn't know.

    Parent
    How do you know (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:54:43 AM EST
    That the school didn't talk to her before?  These weren't 9 days in a row.  The days missed during 2008 and 2009 were Dec. 15, 17, 18, 21, 22 and 23; on Jan. 19 and 29; and on May 27.  So, assuming she forgot for the Christmas vacation, what's her excuse for the other days? If she's too stupid to make a phone call, I question her ability to be a good parent in other respects.

    And 9 days out of an average 180 day school year calendar is 5% of the total school year.  And I can tell you from being the child of a teacher - my mother would pull her hair out when parents would go on vacation during the school year and yank the kids out of school for multiple days and then say "Can you give us his homework to do?"  Um, no - that's a lot of extra work before hand, and extra work afterwards that a teacher has to work with the kid to make sure he's caught up.

    Boo hoo - she sat in a jail cell for a few hours because she can't follow instructions - multiple times.

    Parent

    Once again... (none / 0) (#107)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:03:34 PM EST
    you grossly underestimate the crime of caging a human being...even for only for a few hours...it is serious business, a lot more serious than 9 days of school.

    Not to mention what right does the state have to demand phone calls and notes from a free woman...it's her f*ckin' kid, not the State of Pennsylvania's. If the kid is clothed and fed and not being beaten, the state needs to mind its own damn business.

    Parent

    Except the parent is making the choice (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:17:37 PM EST
    the child won't be at school.  Wouldn't a true libertarian leave that choice to the kid?

    Parent
    I'm down for lowering the age... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:31:59 PM EST
    of consent, if thats what you're asking:)

    A good parent would certainly weigh their child's feelings before rendering a decision that effects the child, but traditionally final say lies with the parents till adulthood...it certainly should not lie with a bueracrat who did not fertilize the egg or suffer the pains of labor.

    Parent

    You want to go back (none / 0) (#113)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:25:48 PM EST
    more than 130 years to make education optional?

    Wow.

    Parent

    If the two choices... (none / 0) (#121)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:44:28 PM EST
    are optional or punishable by fine and/or arrest for non-compliance, yeah...put me down firmly for optional, but strongly encouraged & highly recommended.

    I swear, you statists and your hammer, treating everything like a nail...you guys got to chill man:)

    Parent

    Probably fortunate you don't have offspring (none / 0) (#123)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:52:32 PM EST
    yet.  Poor kid would be in eternal detention.  Just kidding.

    Parent
    Highly unlikely... (none / 0) (#125)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:58:13 PM EST
    I will spawn anything, barring contraceptive failure...but in my random thoughts I've contemplated the education of any offspring...I'd send them to the mandated indoctrination centers to learn bueracracy battling skills, and social skills....the real educating would be home school as part of the daily deprogramming session.

    Parent
    No "anchor" babies for you? (none / 0) (#126)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:59:19 PM EST
    Once again... (none / 0) (#133)
    by jbindc on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:20:02 PM EST
    You grossly underestimate the reason we have rules and laws in this society.  Without them, society fails.  

    This woman apparently 1) can't remember to make phone calls or send a note to a teacher, 2) can't remember court dates, and 3) can't remember to pay restitution.

    I bet her few hours in jail will help jog her memory next time.

    Parent

    What happens when... (none / 0) (#150)
    by kdog on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 05:44:47 PM EST
    the rules fail society?

    If missing some school without following procedure can lead to chained wrists via any path, we may be there kid...

    Parent

    I'm with kdog on this one. (none / 0) (#152)
    by caseyOR on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 07:11:09 PM EST
    kdog and I do not always see eye to eye about criminal justice (is this an oxymoron?), but he's right on the money in this case.

    Should the kid be in school? Yes. Should the parent face jail time, any jail time, for the kid's absences? No, no, no. What a waste of resources and tax dollars.

    Yes, it can be a hassle for teachers when kids miss several days of school. And I agree that it is hard, sometimes impossible, to make up the instructional time. But in what world are these criminal offenses? Who decided it merited jail? That's insane.

    We have got to stop jailing people for each and every action we don't like or agree with.

    Geezus, what have we become?

    Parent

    Casey, if jail was the immediate (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 08:21:01 PM EST
    consequence of the unexcused absences, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but it wasn't; this parent had multiple opportunities - starting with dealing with the initial absences at the time they occured - to handle the situation in a less punitive manner, but at every turn she failed to do so.  This was her failure, not the schools'.

    If there is no consequence for ignoring not just the initial rule, but the things that flow from it, why even have the rule?  Why not just tell parents that schools don't give a damn whether the kids show up or not?  

    At what point does this mother take responsibilty for seeing to it that her children are in school when school is in session - barring illness or family tragedy - and stops trying to blame others for her own lapses?

    Millions of parents manage to get their kids through school, writing notes when they're sick, contacting the school when it looks like they will be out for an extended period of time, and many of these parents also work full time.  

    If they can do it, so can she, and I guarantee you that the other parents at her kids' school, who are playing by the rules, are not the least bit upset that this woman finally had to be accountable for her total disregard of her responsibilities.

    Parent

    I would bet that teachers (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by Towanda on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 10:05:56 PM EST
    and others running schools, too, appreciate it when -- for once -- they are not blamed for the failure of such students, the loss of funds to schools for such failures that then reduce programs for good students and their parents, etc.

    Parent
    Sorry Casey (none / 0) (#166)
    by jbindc on Fri Feb 04, 2011 at 08:54:34 AM EST
    Geezus, what have we become?

    Exactly.  What have we become when we don't want to hold people responsible for something that is clearly of their own doing and fault?  Why do we want to make excuses for people who are failing at their responsibilities and in turn, are harming others?

    Parent

    Schools have the right to set the (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by Anne on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:12:02 PM EST
    standards and rules, and I'd be willing to bet that their rules on unexcused absences are no secret - in fact, I'd bet that they remind and remind and remind parents - and the kids - what the consequences are for not adhering to them.

    When my kids were in high school, the rule was that if you had nore than five unexcused absences from a class, it was an automatic "Fail."  Parents knew it, kids knew it, everyone knew it.  Keeping the school informed, or consulting with administration prior to an anticipated absence is not so onerous that it placed an undue burden on parents and students.

    Schools and teachers got tired of dealing with parents who would take their kids out of school whenever they felt like it, and would expect teachers to accommodate their whims.  You don't teach kids to value their education or their responsibilities by letting them break the rules whenever they - or their parents - feel like it.

    "I forgot."  "I was too busy."  "I have three kids."  The only thing missing was, "the dog ate the notes I wrote!"

    And now she's a poor, misunderstood victim...please.

    [rolls eyes]

    Parent

    Suleiman (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:08:19 AM EST
    is on state tv trying to sound reasonable enough to save his personal bacon.
    it might work. he is sounding pretty reasonable.

    finally says the son (none / 0) (#81)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:21:10 AM EST
    wont run either.

    Parent
    Just a thought (none / 0) (#85)
    by CoralGables on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:30:51 AM EST
    Is it really a democracy if someone isn't permitted to run, because those wanting democracy think that individual might win?

    Parent
    I dont think they are afraid he will (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:49:25 AM EST
     "win"
    I would imagine they are afraid he will try to steal the election as his father has for 20 years.

    Parent
    or 30 years (none / 0) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:49:46 AM EST
    The people Al Jazeera is interviewing (none / 0) (#88)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:41:13 AM EST
    aren't buying it.  They've heard it all before.  Lots.  

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#94)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:50:36 AM EST
    a crony is probably not going to cut it.  

    Parent
    sadly (none / 0) (#97)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:53:16 AM EST
    the decision will not be made by the protesters ultimately I fear but the army.

    I think it is possible he could be put in charge of the transition.

    Parent

    for example (none / 0) (#98)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:53:33 AM EST
    he is Bidens BFF

    Parent
    of course they arent (none / 0) (#95)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:52:21 AM EST
    no surprise there.  

    Parent
    Suleiman: Mubarak is our father (none / 0) (#104)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 12:47:55 PM EST
    (link).

    I don't even know what you say to that...just laugh I guess.

    Parent

    oh (none / 0) (#105)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 12:49:41 PM EST
    he is not going to make the protesters happy.  I just think that once the Mubarak thing is settled we may have to do another round to get rid of him because, for one thing, he is there.  otherwise they just have to start pulling names out of a hat.
    right?


    Parent
    Christians protect (none / 0) (#73)
    by lilburro on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:11:05 AM EST
    Muslims during their prayers...pic.  Civil spirit.

    been seeing signs (none / 0) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:16:57 AM EST
    with a crescent and a cross combined.  this is not about muslims.


    Parent
    here (none / 0) (#78)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:17:50 AM EST
    but dont tell (none / 0) (#80)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:20:04 AM EST
    jim ok.  

    Parent
    Well, except for the fact the vast (none / 0) (#89)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:42:12 AM EST
    majority of Egyptians are nominally Muslim.

    Parent
    this is a united front (none / 0) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 11:47:43 AM EST
    Maria Schneider (1952-2011) (none / 0) (#106)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:01:05 PM EST
    best know for Last Tango in Paris.  from the guardian:

    The film made Schneider a star, although she later accused Brando and Bertolucci of exploiting her. She described the director as "a gangster and a pimp", likened the experience to being "raped" and said that Last Tango in Paris had taught her an important lesson: "Never take your clothes off for a middle-aged man who claims that it's art."


    Shades of Polanski. (none / 0) (#117)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:32:36 PM EST
    I was counting (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:41:10 PM EST
    down

    Parent
    It's ok. I've moved on to obsessive (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:43:07 PM EST
    interest in what's happening in Cairo.

    Parent
    a much healthier obsession (none / 0) (#122)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:46:05 PM EST
    IMO

    Parent
    Maybe. We'll see. Mubarak just (none / 0) (#124)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 01:53:47 PM EST
    interviewed on ABC.  Says he's fed up.  Poor me.  I'm the victim here.

    Parent
    just commented about that (none / 0) (#127)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 02:01:14 PM EST
    fears chaos.  wonder what he calls this.


    Parent
    3 inches of snow since two pm central time (none / 0) (#149)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 05:28:49 PM EST
    not in the forecast,either. We got ourselves a mess!