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Monday Media News and Open Thread

If you don't have time to watch presidential daily news briefings, new White House Press Secretary Jay Carney has an active twitter feed.

Here's Obama's fact sheet on the health care law and empowering states.

Carney writes: "Looking forward to using twitter often, to answer questions and let people know what the WH is doing." He also says the U.S. is focused on sanctions with Libya but not taking any options off the table.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    NCAA Roundball... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:45:28 PM EST
    polls are out...St. Johns leapfrogs to 15, both AP and Coaches.

    If we were ranking from scratch today, the Johnnies would have to be in the Top 10. But you can only leapfrog so far...8 & 10 slots respectively is as good as it gets.

    One thing for sure...no Big East team wants any part of us in the Big East tourney in the Garden...sh*t no team in the country wants any piece of us in the Garden!  

    And the Knicks made the King look like a pauper in Miami...too early to call Lebron anti-clutch?  Me no think so!  No wonder he wanted no part of NYC Hoops:)

    Gotta give the Johnnies their props (none / 0) (#29)
    by scribe on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:59:48 PM EST
    No one else in a position of polling/seeding authority has, until now.

    I have no particular attraction to or affection for the Johnnies, but I have to say that it's a program with a long, proud history which hasn't had a good run since Lou Carnesecca retired his sweaters.  And I'm glad for them.  If there's a feel-good story coming out of this season, St. John's is it.

    Parent

    It's beautiful... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:20:29 PM EST
    I've been a fan since the '85 Final Four team of Mullin, Berry, & Glass...this resurgence has been a long time coming.

    Mad props go out to Norm Roberts for doing the hard work of cleaning up a mess of a program and recruiting this great class of seniors at a time when St. Johns was a total mess...I just wish Norm had gotten a taste of this sweet fruit...though 1st year coach Steve Lavin has done an admirable job of giving Norm his due for this very special team.

    And the future is bright too...Lavin has a top flight recruiting class coming in next year.

    If Dwight Hardy doesn't win Big East POY it will be a travesty....he has been absolutely tremendous.  And I see big man Justin Brownlee making a name for himself in the pros...he's got an NBA-ready game, imo.

    Parent

    Winning makes recruiting all that much easier (none / 0) (#56)
    by scribe on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:41:26 PM EST
    Now, like in the old days, St. John's can go to the NYC kids and say:  "you grew up in this town.  You can play in The Garden and win with us."

    Parent
    Without roundball... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 03:35:02 PM EST
    I'd be defacto forced to pay attention to Mutts Spring Training...praise the sporting gods for the roundball renaissance!

    Parent
    More healthcare news (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:00:38 PM EST
    Key section, IMO (none / 0) (#2)
    by CST on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:10:55 PM EST
    "the law's waiver provision comes with a catch. A state's waiver proposal must show that it is capable of providing coverage that is at least as comprehensive and affordable as that offered through new state-run health insurance exchanges, which also open in 2014. The state must also provide coverage to as many residents as the exchanges would have, and the proposal must not increase the federal deficit."

    Also, I realize you are quoting the headline, but this seems misleading "backtracks on mandate".  He is not proposing to eliminate the mandate in the national plan.  But rather, by allowing this waiver to start at the same time as the mandate, he is telling states that if they can come up with a better plan, than they don't need to go with the national plan (and therefore the mandate).

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#3)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:16:42 PM EST
    Since the mandate was the reason for the bill in the first place and why Obama pushed for it, and since this amendment was proposed in November, I think "backtrack" is an apt description.

    Parent
    More (none / 0) (#4)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:19:46 PM EST
    In a nod to November's results, the administration has worked diligently to create the image of a president who is willing to listen to Republicans -- and the agitated voters who empowered them. Flexibility has become a White House watchword in putting the health care act into effect. The administration has made a series of announcements intended to encourage states to shape the law to their individual needs, even if the possible effect is to reduce the breadth of coverage in some places.

    Monday's announcement may not quiet the cries of Republican governors who are seeking immediate relief from requirements in the law that prohibit states from lowering eligibility for Medicaid until 2014. That is when the law calls for a significant expansion of the joint state and federal health insurance program to include low-income childless adults. Governors of both parties also are chafing at the added cost of the Medicaid expansion, as states will begin to pay a fractional share of the expense in 2016.

    In January, 29 Republican governors asked Mr. Obama and Congressional leaders to eliminate the eligibility restriction. Kathleen Sebelius, the secretary of health and human services, responded by outlining provisions already in the law that provide states with flexibility, and by helping them identify permissible ways to reduce Medicaid benefits.

    This month, Ms. Sebelius sent a letter to Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona, a Republican, to inform her that an expiring waiver meant Arizona would not need federal permission to eliminate a Medicaid program that currently covers 250,000 childless adults. On Friday, she informed states that they could raise premiums for Medicaid enrollees without running afoul of the federal eligibility requirements.

    NYT

    Parent

    What you've cited is more about (none / 0) (#8)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:40:21 PM EST
    Medicaid - which many states (see Arizona) would like to more or less gut:

    Other states don't want to really adopt a new health care system for themselves as much as they want to gut Medicaid and reduce their state's costs by trimming hundreds of thousands from the rolls. Since half of the coverage advantages from the health care law come from the expansion of Medicaid, I don't know how this would be acceptable under an Obama Administration. But the Health and Human Services Secretary, Kathleen Sebelius, has been trying to provide a path forward for states to cut their Medicaid costs, mainly by allowing states to shift costs onto beneficiaries.

    I'm not sure how shifting the cost of care onto people who wouldn't be eligible for Medicaid if they weren't at the lower end of the income spectrum to begin with makes any sense, but you can see, can't you, how balled up this is all getting as the health whatever law butts up against deficit hysteria?  It's not enough that the law puts the burden on the feds initially for the Medicaid expansion called for, because right now, state budgets are deeply in the red, and looking - courtesy of the austerity program about to be embarked upon by both parties - to get much, much worse.

    Why these gaps always seem to have to be borne by those who have the least is another one of those questions that has no answer that makes any sense.  Well, other than that rich people don't want to pay for poor people to have care.

    Parent

    what? (none / 0) (#9)
    by CST on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:50:43 PM EST
    "the mandate was the reason for the bill in the first place"

    I strongly disagree with that.  It wasn't even in his campaign version of the bill.  Although it did become a key piece of the legislation, it was hardly the "reason for the bill".

    Also, the opt-out for the states was included in the original bill, starting in 2017.  This amendment bumps that up to 2014, which is the start date of the mandate.  So yes, he is allowing states to opt-out of the mandate as soon as it starts.  But there was always a provision allowing states to opt out at some point.

    Parent

    It wasn't in his campaign version (none / 0) (#12)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:22:19 PM EST
    But then he did add it in 2009 and pushed for it.

    And the reason for moving it from 2017, to 2014 is because he knew he was facing a somewhat hostile audience. Otherwise, when Wyden and Landrieu introduced this amendment back in November, he would have gotten on board then.

    Parent

    I think, as time passes, we are going (none / 0) (#21)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:51:15 PM EST
    to realize that Obama's position on any number of elements in the legislation will be able to be reduced to, "yeah, whatever dude."

    Why?

    Because now we're in the follow-through period.  Has Obama ever been around anything long enough to successfully navigate the follow-through period?

    I'll wait a minute or two for that to sink in...

    Yeah, this is the time when ideas have to become reality, people have to make the whole thing work, and they have to do it in the midst of extreme hysteria over deficits and revenue, not to mention that they have to figure out what to do about the parts that butt up against other interests, rules and policies: what - and who - gives?

    As if it wasn't already enough of a mish-mash, it's going to get worse, and the open question is whether, by the time we get to 2014, will whatever the health-whatever situation is be an improvement on what existed when the process was started, or will it be much, much worse?

    I think there's a half a chance that in a few states, single-payer experiments will be undertaken, but I think there's a better than even chance that in most of the states, things will be much worse: more expensive and less comprehensive.

    In other words, an unqualified mess.

    Parent

    in theory (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CST on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:54:36 PM EST
    this amendment is supposed to protect against that case, by indicating that it can not be more expensive or provide less coverage than what is offered in the federal plan.

    As always, the devil will be in the details of how this is implemented.

    But on paper, it's pretty good.

    Parent

    So, the key will be changing the (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:01:33 PM EST
    federal plan, no?  

    I can't imagine that the Act will survive three more years in its current form, can you?

    Parent

    I hope it doesn't (none / 0) (#35)
    by CST on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:04:48 PM EST
    but not in the way you are implying.

    In any event, that's a different bridge to cross once we get there.  But I don't see how this particular amendment will influence that one way or another.

    Parent

    It's true that I have been an opponent of (none / 0) (#59)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 03:47:17 PM EST
    this plan pretty much from the beginning, when it was clear that the industry was going to be the primary beneficiary, and the best solution was not even allowed to be discussed, much less be "on the table," but given that the ACA now exists, I would prefer that any changes made would serve to make it better.  But - given the shift in the balance of power, and the rampant deficit hysteria, I don't hold out much hope that the inevitable changes will be positive ones.

    As changes go, the waiver to allow states to opt out on the condition they offer something as good as those defined in the Act isn't a bad one, but its relative merit is predicated on holding the line on the level of coverage that exists under the current plan.

    I think it's going to be under an unrelenting attack, and the "fiscal crisis" that has been manufactured on the federal level to advance a decidely non-populist agenda is only going to make that worse, especially as state budget woes continue to grow.

    Reading today that the Dems have completely bought into the need to cut-cut-cut and are out looking for even more cuts for reasons that make absolutely no sense to me AT ALL.

    I am very worried for the future, quite honestly.

    Parent

    I do too right now (none / 0) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:01:01 PM EST
    I think he sees his giant mistake now in not taking the financial crisis seriously.  Nobody will be able to afford his healthcare legislation as it was passed.  I think he is opening the door for more backtracking.

    Parent
    I'm not sure I would call what he (none / 0) (#5)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:30:25 PM EST
    said a "backtrack" on the mandate.

    From the article you cited  - emphasis is mine:

    The law's waiver provision comes with a catch, however. A state's waiver proposal must show that it is capable of providing coverage that is at least as comprehensive and affordable as that offered through new state-run health insurance exchanges, which also open in 2014. The state must also provide coverage to as many residents as the exchanges would have, and the proposal must not increase the federal deficit.

    The waivers, for example, could allow states to include large employers to purchase insurance purchase insurance on exchanges or set new benefit requirements. But most notably, it provides an avenue for states to wipe away the unpopular individual mandate.

    An "avenue" is not the same as a "backtrack" I don't think - it's more like a "maybe" and even then I think there will be enough qualifiers that it might be more of a "maybe not."

    One thing is clear: this would absolutely provide states with the opportunity to implement a single-payer system - see Vermont, for example.

    From FDL:

    The Wyden-Brown bill to move up the start date is critical to local innovation. As the law is currently designed, if a state wants to try an alternative they would need to go through all the work of setting up the new exchange system only to then repeat all the work and cost of setting up their new alternative just three years later, which is highly impractical.

    An earlier state innovation date would be a very helpful to Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin (D), who is trying to adopt a single-payer system in Vermont, but would need one of these state waivers to do so.

    I still think the whole Act is a mess, but I also would like to see more states attempting a single-payer plan, and this is likely to be the only way that will be able to happen.

    Parent

    Everyone's broke (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:58:58 PM EST
    The state's have to show they would provide as much coverage as the exchanges without a Pubic Option could....that shouldn't be hard at all.

    Parent
    If by backtrack you mean (none / 0) (#16)
    by waldenpond on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:36:27 PM EST
    they are trying to get out of the way of states that are going to implement single payor.... so sure, call an actual advance which the federal Dems were too corrupt to implement a backtrack.

    I'm happy to have these kinds of back tracks although I imagine Obama's billionaire buddies of the insurance monopoly are going to be disgruntled at any attempt to stop their snuffling at the trough.

    Parent

    The states are too broke (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:57:44 PM EST
    Nobody can afford such a program right now other than the Fed Gov.  Bernanke has already said that States and municipalities will not be getting any loans from the Fed like the Federal Government does.  Very few states could afford any such thing at this time.

    Parent
    Then the whole damned thing is over (none / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:53:24 PM EST
    And the friggin fight for nothing!  The only good thing that was won out of the POS legislation was that it would set a new normalcy...everyone insured which was supposed to equal in the end everyone entitled, which would equal more government involvement to make healthcare eventually affordable for all.  Now he's going to tell me that he burnt up all that fricken political will and capital to fight that #%&@ing fight, and because his reelection is scaring him now and the state and local government funds are completely phucked that he is too afraid to anything but throw it all away, and it was all for nothing?

    Oh I'm mad!  Any fool could see that if something very decisive wasn't done at the start of the financial crisis to protect the middle class we were all phucked and broken.  He went on the record saying that he couldn't allow the financial crisis to mess with his planned Obama agenda, so he didn't.  He stuck to his agenda, burnt the whole place down passing NOT transparent government legislation that was going to make things financially very difficult for many middle class people and now he is throwing the baby out with the bath water and the soap and the damned towel too.  I don't know what to think about this man. I REALLY DON'T!

    Parent

    just to be clear (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by CST on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:02:56 PM EST
    the state opt-out is designed for states who want to implement something more comprehensive, not less.

    So it opens the door for places like VT who want to implement single-payer on a state-wide level.

    But it includes language indicating that the pricing/availablity included in the federal plan must be the minimum standard for states as well.

    Parent

    As comprehensive as what would (none / 0) (#41)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:14:46 PM EST
    be offered on the state exchanges -  not more comprehensive - as I understand it.

    Do we even know what the baseline coverage standards are?  Have those even been established yet?

    Parent

    right (none / 0) (#43)
    by CST on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:20:22 PM EST
    I guess what I'm saying is this is setting the federal plan as a minimum standard.  Meaning states would have to be equal to the federal plan.  But that opens the door for states who would like to be more comprehensive.

    Baseline coverage standards have been established in terms of what must be covered (and who).  Pricing standards have not been established other than in relation to the percentage of premiums that must be spent on care.  No clear definition of what counts as "care" has been established as far as I know.

    Parent

    That's why I think he is opening the (none / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:27:56 PM EST
    door for a much wider opt out.  He passed this legislation without a public option and our economy is eating dirt so badly (as it was obvious that it would) that he is now going to damage his ability to get reelected.  The mandate is going to be set on fire by the 2012 election.

    Parent
    Why doesn't the administration (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:33:12 PM EST
    push for the bill to get to the SC?

    Is it because they know it will be found unconstitutional? It certainly seems that way to me. And I think many others see this the same way.

    The bill was written by insurance companies for insurance companies.

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:15:05 PM EST
    but will the SC go against the insurance companies? That is the question that leaves me wondering.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#15)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:27:32 PM EST
    that is what it will hinge upon.

    Parent
    Haha (none / 0) (#17)
    by waldenpond on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:39:19 PM EST
    Could you imagine the SC not stealing hundreds of billions from the middle class and shoveling it to the people they golf, party, vacation with   and marry into?  Too funny!

    Parent
    Good Question, GA6thDem (none / 0) (#42)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:18:28 PM EST
    That is why the answer from the Repub majority on the SCt isn't so obvious, methinks. In that regard, I would especially look at Justice Kennedy and, maybe surprisingly, CJ Roberts.  Also: The gentle nudging into opening the possibility of earlier state experiments--whether Vermont's anticipated medicare-for-all approach or whether a state simply wanting its own controls--adds an interesting component to SCt reflections in that if the Administration's interpretation of its own law (here: allowing for earlier individual state deviation so long as the coverage & costs goals & other essential practices are met) in fact provides for theoretical move away from the mandate....Well, the argument would be that it is more than a commerce clause situation, since the States are allowed to impose their own additional or compatible controls.  Smart legal maneuver, potentially.

    Parent
    Indeed... (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:53:21 PM EST
    what else is to be expected from the best democracy money can buy? (H/T Greg Palast)

    Honestly I'm tired of hearing about it...just let us lube up and get the latest economic reeming over with, and let us lose all our worldly wealth and possessions should we get seriously ill in peace.

    Parent

    Interesting little article... (none / 0) (#7)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 12:40:14 PM EST
    on the dirty history of prisoners and undesirables being used as human guinea pigs for medical experiments by the US government and US Mengele-like doctors...without their knowledge, consent, and/or full disclosure.

    Old news, but not ancient history...important to never forget so such atrocity is not repeated.

    Is such inhumanity in the name of science still going on somewhere today?  Probably I'm afraid.  

    A follower of Al-Awalwki (none / 0) (#13)
    by jbindc on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:24:21 PM EST
    I can't even (none / 0) (#14)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:26:20 PM EST
    I can't even read Jeralyn's link.  Every time I read "Affordable Care Act," I want to vomit.  Pathetic.

    Gov. Walker trying to start a riot (none / 0) (#18)
    by scribe on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:43:21 PM EST
    moving across twitter now is the news that he is literally having the windows of the Wisconsin capitol welded shut.

    wouldn't that be considered (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by nycstray on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:47:53 PM EST
    damaging public property?

    that's about the nicest thing i can comment :)

    Parent

    Not only defacing public property (none / 0) (#27)
    by sj on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:58:10 PM EST
    but isn't that rather similar to chaining factory doors shut?

    Parent
    I'm just afraid he wants to make it look (none / 0) (#32)
    by scribe on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:01:51 PM EST
    like Triangle Shirtwaist meets his own personal Reichstag fire, and then blame it on the unionists.

    Parent
    That's stupid (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:55:14 PM EST
    How will he escape when the pitchfork bearers show up :)?

    Is he going to put in a draw bridge and a moat too?

    Parent

    AFAIK, he's on the outside (none / 0) (#36)
    by scribe on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:04:50 PM EST
    If I were a Rethuglican dictator-wannabe like he is, this would be step one to clesaning out hte unionists prior to the big speech tomorrow night.  Seal the building so no one else can get it, then seal the building so all those inside can only get out through a gauntlet of cops.  Then arrest all of them, probably in the middle of the night tonight.

    By tomorrow night, in time for his big speech, he would have a Capitol cleansed of the influence of unions.  

    Parent

    The pitchfork folks will be on his side.... (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:06:21 PM EST
    I think MT was (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by sj on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:10:53 PM EST
    referring to pitchforks from the populace.  You have that confused with the demonic pitchforks.

    Parent
    No, I was thinking of the (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:14:05 PM EST
    95% or more non government employee union people.

    You know. The ones making less than the union while being forced to pay.

    Parent

    oy (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by sj on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:21:59 PM EST
    I think the movement has grown (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by mmc9431 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 04:03:47 PM EST
    I think the protest has evolved from unions. I think people are beginning to realize that there's a concentrated effort to destroy the middle class.

    "In 1988 the average income for the American taxpayer was $33,400, adjusted for inflation. Fast forward 20 years, and not much had changed: The average income was still just $33,000 in 2008, according to IRS data.
    Meanwhile, the richest 1% of Americans -- those making $380,000 or more -- have seen their incomes grow 33% over the last 20 years, leaving average Americans in the dust."

    Not an encouraging picture.  The wealth and power of this nation was built by the middle class. Do you really believe that the 2% of the wealthy will be able to sustain our economy?


    Parent

    Perhaps the failure (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 06:33:35 PM EST
    you identify is the reason that unions have fallen into disfavor.

    I mean people do not dislike what is working for them.

    Parent

    Except that outside of Fox News (none / 0) (#95)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:04:53 AM EST
    the unions have the support of the majority of Americans, but don't let facts get in the way of your opinion, PPJ.

    Parent
    Unless you are wealthy, jimakappj (none / 0) (#46)
    by christinep on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:22:40 PM EST
    ...I must say that you really fall hook, line, & large sinker for the obvious divide & conquer routine used so well and routinely against the middle class.  (Ooh, ooh...looky over there, hate on that guy 'cause he makes more than you...oh, don't look up, can't have you doing that...go get your brother!)

    Parent
    I read a joke (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by CST on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:27:03 PM EST
    today about this.  This is not verbatum since I don't remember it all, but you get the idea.

    A wall street CEO, a union worker, and a tea partier are sitting at a table with 12 cookies.  The CEO takes 11 cookies, and then says to the tea partier "look out, the union worker is trying to steal your cookie".

    Parent

    AKA Kick the Dog... (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:32:53 PM EST
    it is epidemic lately.

    Instead of asking why public sector working stiffs pay and benefits are halfway decent, we should be asking why private sector working stiffs pay and benefits suck so bad.

    Instead of talking about health care costs for workers bankrupting states, we should be talking about why it costs so damn much to insure a worker and family, and why the state has been so poor at negotiating a good group rate with the insurance cos.

    Parent

    Same tactics (none / 0) (#65)
    by mmc9431 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 04:45:47 PM EST
    Republicans used this same strategy during the healthcare debate. The villian was those nasty union members that had good coverage.

    The Republican answer was to lower the standard for everyone rather than look to improving the standard for all.

    Now they want to do the same thing with wages.

    Evidently they feel if we're all reduced to rubble, the peasants won't have anything to compare notes on.

    Parent

    Healthcare debate... (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 05:09:42 PM EST
    immigration debate, younameit debate...divide and conquer baby.

    George Carlin used to say the rich are here to do none of the work pay no taxes, the middle class are here to do all the work pay all the taxes, and the poor are here to scare the sh*t out of the middle class.

    We might have to revise that keen observation, change middle to poor and poor to imprisoned...if current trends continue.

     

    Parent

    In case you missed it (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 06:02:43 PM EST
    I support private employee unions but oppose government employee unions.

    Why do I feel this way?

    A union of government employees is just a method for the workers to bribe the managers at the expense of the taxpayers (employers).

    It works like this.

    a. Workers demand more money and benefits.

    b. Managers (politicians) agree to give it to them.

    c. Taxpayer gives money to managers (politicians) because he is forced to pay taxes.

    d. Managers give money to workers.

    e. Workers gives part of the money back to the managers. (politicians)

    Pretty neat. It is called "bribery."

    In electronics this is known as positive feedback. And what it always causes is for the amplifier to break into oscillation and produce screeches, screams and howls.

    To avoid this the gain of the amplifier is adjusted carefully. In some cases negative feedback is required to reduce the gain and prevent oscillation. That has not been done in the past.

    Unfortunately for the unions the taxpayers have ran out of money for the politicians to take from them in taxes and have finally elected some officials with big enough balls to say, "No!"

    The gain has been turned down and negative feedback is being applied.


    Parent

    Poetry (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 08:54:42 PM EST
    It may be trite!

    But it sure us right!

    And if it walks like a duck, flies like a duck and quacks like a duck.... it's a duck!

    And while I am interested in corruption, etc., that isn't my point.

    My point is that it is wrong.

    Parent

    Without PPJ to stick up for (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Harry Saxon on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 10:52:23 PM EST
    the wealthiest 2% of the population, who will help save America?

    Parent
    Jealous, eh? (none / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 11:25:25 PM EST
    I understand that you cannot grasp the concept of someone knowing that one thing is wrong no matter how good others may think it is, while, at the same time think that something similar is okay.

    I mean, that is apparent. And I understand that you cannot debate, just snark.

    I also understand that not only the rich, but the supposed sympathetic Left doesn't care, either. Just as the meanies on the Right don't care.

    It is the human condition.

    As for facts, I have stated them quite clearly. Your inability to understand them is not my fault.

    Parent

    You're the one who needs to improve (none / 0) (#93)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 05:57:44 AM EST
    your understanding, and jealousy is something that permeates your posts here like methane from a swamp.

    Parent
    "95 percent"?!? (none / 0) (#80)
    by Yman on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 08:37:44 PM EST
    Pfffffttttt ...

    Makin' it up .... as usual.

    Parent

    Don't distract PPJ with the facts (none / 0) (#83)
    by Harry Saxon on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 10:48:19 PM EST
    Leave that to me:

    MADISON, Wisconsin | Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:08pm EST

    MADISON, Wisconsin (Reuters) - Wisconsin voters would narrowly favor Governor Scott Walker's Democratic opponent if the November, 2010 election were repeated, according to partial poll results released on Monday.

    Walker has stirred national debate and the largest demonstrations in Wisconsin since the Vietnam War with his proposal to strip public sector unions of most collective bargaining rights.

    Walker won the November 2, 2010 election 52 to 46 percent for Democrat Tom Barrett, with the remainder of the vote to minor candidates.

    Public Policy Polling of Raleigh, North Carolina said a new poll showed if the election were replayed now, the result would be almost exactly flipped, with Democrat Tom Barrett getting 52 percent and Walker 45 percent, with four percent not sure.

    The shift in voter sentiment away from Walker was attributed to households with at least one union member, the polling group said. More details of the poll will be released on Tuesday.


    Click or Reuters Me

    Ask PPJ for some data to back up his claims, the silence is almost always deafening.

    Parent

    Alas, alas (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 11:27:47 PM EST
    Sore losers always want to replay the last game.

    In case you are unaware, the next election is 11/2012.

    At that time the unions may do their best to beat the Guv.

    Parent

    Funny how you didn't apply that same (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Harry Saxon on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 11:42:40 PM EST
    logic to the Tea Party protests, reminding us of their chance to change things in the 2012 election.


    Parent
    Then where are they now Jim (none / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:23:45 PM EST
    The angry unwashed gathering around his castle are not on his side :)

    Parent
    Oh they are there (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 06:05:41 PM EST
    Just not being shown on the media you watch.

    Some media actually show them, and actually show them being attacked by thugs.

    Parent

    Speaking as someone who's actually been there... (5.00 / 4) (#97)
    by huzzlewhat on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:46:21 AM EST
    My friend and I had to walk around the capitol building twice before we found the Tea Party rally; it was so small compared to the rest of the crowd, we failed to notice it the first time. And this was the day that they'd been specifically called to action, when Andrew Breitbart (apparently, we read later) was speaking. When I got home that night, I talked to my parents on the phone, and they were under the impression that the number of Tea Partiers there equalled the anti-bill protestors because of what they'd seen on the news. And they watch PBS, not Fox. So I'd imagine that anyone who watches Fox would get an even more skewed idea of the balance of attendees.

    As for thugs... This honestly has been the most decent and pleasant protest I've ever seen. People are angry, of course -- they wouldn't be protesting otherwise -- but they're not behaving thuggishly at all. We're Wisconsin, for goodness' sakes. This is the state that has two guys in inflatable plastic deer heads holding a sign saying, "Whitetails for Workers' Rights," and where one of the first things we saw when we arrived at the square was the free bratwurst stand. On the days I was there, there was an orderly line to get into the capitol building, and people were polite to each other and very much so to the policemen on site. When a group of about four Tea Party members entered the crowd slightly in front of me, holding their own anti-union signs, a union member and rally marshal (I think? I'm not sure what her actual role was, but she was one of the rally officials all wearing "This is a peaceful protest" vests) quickly attached herself to the rear of their party, not shouting or engaging, just watching in intervene if needed to defuse any conflict. She never had to say anything.

    Parent

    This happened at the Crawford TX (none / 0) (#135)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:18:49 PM EST
    Iraq War protest too.  I couldn't believe it, wouldn't have believed it until my husband called me after watching the news.  A bus full of counter protesters showed up with their own film crew.  Everyone piled out of the bus, stood in the ditch and sang God Bless America and they each had a little flag in their hand.  I think they sang another song too, then they all piled back onto the bus and left.  A few hours later I get a worried phone call from my husband to see if I was okay since a large counter protest was now present according to the news.  I busted out laughing, 30 or 40 people road in on an air conditioned bus and stayed 10 minutes.  People protesting the Iraq War slept outdoors for weeks, and the number there grew and grew and grew with each passing hour.  People sent food to feed everyone.....no air conditioning :)  No counter protester ever stayed longer than 30 minutes except for the one guy who drove in with us, and he was all by himself but I ended up making friends with him :)

    Parent
    And which media would that be? (none / 0) (#85)
    by Harry Saxon on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 10:54:18 PM EST
    and what were the nature of these 'thugs' and their
    'attacks'?

    Parent
    Watch some Fox (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 11:28:32 PM EST
    I checked the Fox website (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 07:38:01 AM EST
    Some media actually show them, and actually show them being attacked by thugs.

    There's no such video.

    The wingers and their silly lies ...

    Parent

    This is what happens to a brain (none / 0) (#102)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:39:10 AM EST
    on Fox News, Yman.

    Any questions?

    Parent

    I didn't say it was on the 'net (none / 0) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:40:49 AM EST
    Please pay attention.

    Next I know you will be denying what the MA Demo said about blood.....

    Parent

    You said some media (none / 0) (#106)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:49:41 AM EST
    so where can this be seen, if not on the Internet, PPJ?

    Parent
    Yeah, because if there actually WAS ... (none / 0) (#151)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:40:32 PM EST
    Watch some Fox ...

    I didn't say it was on the 'net ... Please pay attention.

    ... a video of actual "union thuggery" occurring at these protests, Fox would broadcast it but would leave it off their website.

    As logical as most of your statements.

    Parent

    So we have another (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:17:52 PM EST
    who doesn't think hitting a female who is filming something is thuggery...

    Parent
    No, we have another ... (none / 0) (#164)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:33:58 PM EST
    ... who thinks it's funny that a man swatting away a cell phone that's shoved in his face is he best example you come up with to support your silly accusations of "union thuggery".  Who knew guys in "naval aviation" were so ...

    ... "sensitive".

    Parent

    Here's a teaser (none / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 09:35:44 AM EST
    Re:Thug (none / 0) (#114)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 09:40:02 AM EST

    Given their hysterical reaction to iPhone-Nacht, perhaps the tea partiers should consider pulling a pair of Depends adult diapers over their faux Colonial tights at the next rally. If there was a recent "attack," the appropriate portion of the diaper could be stained brown (perhaps ritually via a communal pudding bench). In the absence of a recent assault, the diaper could remain unsoiled in readiness for the next outrageous attack on someone's person(al property).

    Click or Rumproast Me

    Parent

    I guess hitting a female (none / 0) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 11:50:10 AM EST
    who is video tapping you becomes you.

    Swat me, lover?

    Who knows our kinks, eh?

    Parent

    Thought it was union thuggery (none / 0) (#134)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:18:35 PM EST
    now it's a matter of chivalry?

    I would use another forum than this to talk about any possible kinks you might have, PPJ.

    No charge for the education.

    Parent

    Hitting a female (none / 0) (#159)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:19:41 PM EST
    who is filming a union supporter is not thuggery?

    You can run, but you can't hide.

    Parent

    No need to "hide" (none / 0) (#166)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:38:13 PM EST
    He didn't hit her - he swatted her phone away from his face with a piece if cardboard.

    But good to know that "tease" is (in reality) the best you've got ...

    Parent

    Nice to know that (none / 0) (#186)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:08:34 PM EST
    you term defending ones' personal space 'thuggery', PPJ.

    Parent
    Look at the video again, Jimmy (none / 0) (#147)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:19:14 PM EST
    He didn't hit her.  He knocked her phone away from his face with a piece of cardboard.  Listen to the dialogue.  The wingers tried to accuse him of "hitting a girl", to which he immediately replied, "No, I hit the phone".  Listen to her protestation - she's talking about her "personal property", not being hit herself.

    This is supposed to be your evidence of union "thuggery"?!?  Geezus, Jimmy ...

    ... good thing you got out of the navy.

    Parent

    Sigh (none / 0) (#169)
    by sj on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:48:15 PM EST
    Sometimes one can have a rational discussion with Jim.  And then there are the times when he has walked out too far on the ledge to "back down".  He's drawn his line and backed into his corner and no amount of truth and fact will alter his conviction.

    This is one of those times.  Look at how he's taken over the thread.  Had me going last night as well.  I hate when I get sucked into that.  

    Parent

    If you swat a cell phone (none / 0) (#176)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 04:43:28 PM EST
    that I am holding in my hand then you have attacked me.

    That is thuggery.

    Parent

    "Thuggery" ... Pffffftttt.... (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 05:39:24 PM EST
    Then I'm sure this heinous act of "thuggery" will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, right, Jimmy?

    Right after the responding police officer stops laughing ...

    Almost anything could be labeled an "attack" in the broadest sense of the word, Jimmy.  The fact that you've gotten yours all in a twist, along with he fact that this was the most egregious example of "union thuggery" you could come up with just amplifies the silliness of your claims.  Like I said, ...

    ... the wingers and their silly lies.

    BTW - You called this ridiculous example "a tease", suggesting there was more/better yet to come.  C'mon, Jimmy ... let's see a few links.  Unless, of course ....

    ... you were just making it up.

    Parent

    Yeah, but it's hard ... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:38:01 PM EST
    ... to let he wingers spew their lies and hyperbole without getting "sucked in".  My favorite is when he makes the most outrageous claims without the slightest bit of evidence, while demanding others post links.

    Parent
    See what I mean? (none / 0) (#180)
    by sj on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 04:53:58 PM EST
    I post a comment to you, Yman, and he can't contain himself.

    Parent
    A "teaser"??? Pffffttttt .... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Yman on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:12:58 PM EST
    Some media actually show them, and actually show them being attacked by thugs.

    Puhhhhhh-leeeezzz, JimmyJoe.  A guy gets annoyed at someone shoving a camera phone in his face, pushes it away with his cardboard sign, and that's supposed to be an "attack" by "thugs"?!?

    BTW - That's not a "teaser" - that's the best you could come up with.  Funny stuff.

    Pathetic, ...

    ... but funny.

    Parent

    Here's a teaser (none / 0) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 09:35:44 AM EST
    The same outfit that praised (none / 0) (#91)
    by Harry Saxon on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 11:41:05 PM EST
    the Tea Party protests but insist that the Madison protests are somehow UnAmerican?

    Fox Slams WI Protests But Cheered Tea Party Protests
    February 18, 2011 12:21 pm ET -- 169 Comments

    Fox News' coverage of the Wisconsin protests over Gov. Scott Walker's proposal to eliminate public employees' collective bargaining rights, among other things, has been marked with repeated attacks on the protesters. However, by contrast, Fox has relentlessly promoted and even encouraged viewers to participate in tea party and "Tax Day" protests over the past few years.

    ............................................
    But Fox Has Aggressively Hyped Tea Party Protests And Protesters

    Media Matters April '09 Report Found Fox Aired At Least 20 Segments And 73 Promos On Tea Party Protests In Lead Up To Tax Day Protests. In April 2009, Media Matters reported that Fox News had frequently aired segments not only covering tea party protests but encouraging viewers to get involved. An April 15, 2009, study found that from April 6-13, Fox had aired 20 segments and 73 in-show and commercial promotions on the tea party protests scheduled for April 15. Many of those segments aired during one of Fox's supposedly objective news shows, America's Newsroom. [Media Matters, 4/8/09, 4/15/09]

    Fox News Hosts Attended "FNC Tax Day Tea Parties." In the days leading up to the "Tax Day" protests, Fox repeatedly aired on-screen text describing protests Fox news hosts would be attending as "FNC Tax Day Tea Parties." [Media Matters, 4/9/09]

    Fox's Tax Day Coverage Promoted Protesters' Cause, Urged Viewer Involvement. As Media Matters has previously documented, Fox News and Fox Business also hyped the tea party during its coverage of the "Tax Day" protests on April 15, 2009. Hosts and guests on several shows, including the supposedly objective Happening Now and America's Newsroom, promoted the protesters' cause and urged viewers to join the protests and visit tea party websites. [Media Matters, 4/16/09]

    Click or Mediamatters Me

    Thanks for the laughs for the evening, PPJ.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#118)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:08:48 AM EST
    That would seem to violate any (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 01:57:46 PM EST
    number of building and safety codes, but I'm sure that doesn't mean much to Walker...but then, restricting access to the Capitol is a violation of the Wisconsin constitution, perhaps more proof that Governor Walker isn't interested in upholding the laws of the state he is charged with governing.

    And I see where AFSCME has filed an unfair labor practice claim against Walker for failing to bargain in good faith.

    Parent

    Yup, pretty sure the fireman (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:02:11 PM EST
    aren't going to go along with this.

    Parent
    A window is access to a building? (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:07:41 PM EST

    And here I thought that was what doors are for.

    Parent

    Try to keep up, Jim... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:24:34 PM EST
    welding the windows shut is a safety issue - it's about people being able to GET OUT of the building in the event of fire or other emergency.  

    Kind of ironic in that "safety" is one of the reasons being given for some of the new rules Walker has devised - rules that have the effect of blocking access INTO the building.

    Parent

    I am keeping up (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 06:10:12 PM EST
    You brought the subject of access up, which is not a safety issue. And are the windows actually fire exits? Are they accessible from the inside? And could you jump for safety or would it be like the 9/11 jumpers from the WTC towers?

    Looks like Walker is one step ahead.

    Parent

    do you (none / 0) (#51)
    by sj on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:29:18 PM EST
    know nothing about egress and ingress?  

    Obviously you have never done a major home improvement.  Or, if so, it wasn't done legally.

    Sometimes you would be better off just saying nothing.  Instead you make it shockingly clear how much you don't know.

    All of us are ignorant about something.  Many things.   Most of us don't try as hard as you do to make that ignorance public.

    Parent

    What you make clear is (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 06:30:56 PM EST
    your desire to make a personal attack.

    Let me repeat.

    A window is not an access into a building. That would be a door.

    And my comment did not mention fire exits or escapes.

    You define yourself.

    Parent

    What you make clear is (none / 0) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 06:30:56 PM EST
    your desire to make a personal attack.

    Let me repeat.

    A window is not an access into a building. That would be a door.

    And my comment did not mention fire exits or escapes.

    You define yourself.

    Parent

    So in other words (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by sj on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 11:08:05 PM EST
    you were just making that comment for no good reason at all.  Just to be contrary, as my Mom would say.

    Okay, now I know.

    (And don't you wish you could delete your own comments?  It's not nearly as scathing when posted twice.)

    Parent

    I have no idea as to what your (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 11:31:44 PM EST
    Mom would say, and really don't care.

    Go back and read.

    My point was that locking/securing/welding windows does not block access to a building.

    Doors are used to access the interior of buildings.

    Or at least that's how we do it around here.

    Parent

    Posting twice is what PPJ does (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:00:18 AM EST
    when he's particularly 'disturbed' by something someone posts here.

    Parent
    The governor blocked access to the (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Anne on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:56:26 AM EST
    building to anyone who wasn't already in the building who didn't have a verifiable appointment - an action that is in direct violation of the Wisconsin Constitution, which provides for citizen access and peaceable assembly, no appointment required.

    As to the windows situation, I already posted an update: the windows were not being welded shut - there was a window latch in need of repair, and one in a women's bathroom that had apparently always been screwed shut.

    However, welding windows shut is a safety issue, probably in violation of numerous building and fire codes, for reasons that should be obvious even to you.  In the event of a fire, for example, where doors are blocked, windows would represent an avenue of escape - and also an avenue for access by emergency personnel.

    Duh.  Duh.  And, duh.

    I guess Walker thinks he is scoring points be being a hard-ass, but it seems to me he is only fueling his opposition.  It also seems to me that Walker's actions are proving exactly why unions were formed in the first place.

    And I think people around the country have been able to see that in a very demonstrable way, and will be empowered to make their voices heard.  Because wherher you realize it or not, people are mad as hell, and are realizing that they don't have to take it anymore - or at least do not have to lie down and accept without protest whatever is being dished out by government leaders who don't give a rat's hind end about them.

    Parent

    Then pray tell (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:06:39 AM EST
    what is your twisted logic for Governor Walker to weld the windows shut?

    Parent
    Where did I say that I thought he should? (none / 0) (#160)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:22:08 PM EST
    I merely noted that doing so would not block access into the building.

    Parent
    Oh, for the love of God, jim... (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Anne on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:45:52 PM EST
    welding the windows shut blocks access by emergency personnel in the event of fire or other situation where the doors may also be blocked.

    Why can't you admit that?

    Is it just your way of avoiding the truth that Walker blocked access to the building through the doors?

    Despite a temporary restraining order to open the Capitol building in Madison in advance of Gov. Scott Walker's budget address, the Department of Administration is claiming that, despite their clear crackdown on protesters, they are complying with the request:

    "The Department of Administration today did receive a temporary injunction requiring the department to open the Wisconsin State Capitol to members of the public during business hours and when governmental matters, including hearings, are being conducted. The policies that DOA currently has in place are in compliance with this order. A hearing on the matter is scheduled for 2:15 p.m. today at the Dane County Circuit Court, Branch 3, before Judge Albert."

    "The policies currently in place" are the orders/rules that serve to restrict and/or block access, kind of a neat trick to claim compliance with something they're not complying with, wouldn't you say?

    Link.

    Parent

    See (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:53:05 PM EST
    Here

    A visibly indignant Sheriff Dave Mahoney on Tuesday said the Walker administration's continuing restriction on access to the Capitol "jeopardizes public safety."

    "It's crucial that individuals have a voice," he said at a press conference with Dane County District Attorney Ismael Ozanne. Otherwise, he said, people could resort to "desperate actions."

    Mahoney praised the law enforcement officers from the Capitol Police and from areas around the state called to provide security over the past two weeks of protest over Gov. Scott Walker's proposal to effectively end collective bargaining by public employees, excluding most law enforcement and firefighting personnel.

    But he said the officers blocking access to the Capitol were being put "in the position of being palace guards."

    Mahoney said he pulled his officers from manning the Capitol doors Monday after state officials refused to tell him why the statehouse doors were being locked.



    Parent
    If there was an emergency in which (none / 0) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 04:45:50 PM EST
    the first responders couldn't use the doors they would just knock out the windows.

    Windows open from the INSIDE.

    Parent

    au contraire (none / 0) (#123)
    by sj on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:24:22 AM EST
    You know exactly what my Mom would say, because I just told you.  And, amusingly, despite your protests, you cared enough to actually comment on it.

    Thanks for the laugh first thing in the morning.  I know it wasn't your intention, but I appreciate it anyway.  Maybe even more because it was unintentional.  

    Might not do much for your good humor, but you can't have everything.

    Parent

    That is one of his specialites (none / 0) (#187)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:12:18 PM EST
    you should look in his comments for more gems like that one.

    Parent
    I hope they have good ventilation (none / 0) (#53)
    by CST on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:33:14 PM EST
    Indoor air can be pretty nasty stuff.

    Parent
    Intimidation (none / 0) (#54)
    by lilburro on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:36:12 PM EST
    also people can't pass food in through the windows.

    What.An.@SSHOLE.

    recall...

    Parent

    Then again (none / 0) (#55)
    by lilburro on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 02:37:58 PM EST
    this could be his Mubarak moment.  When you start intimidating your people or doing violence to them using the state there's no turning back IMO.

    Parent
    David Dayen at FDL says that (none / 0) (#57)
    by Anne on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 03:20:46 PM EST
    initial reports may have been an overreaction to what is now being reported as a repair to a broken window latch, and that a latch in a women's bathroom has always been screwed shut.

    UPDATE on this: I'm hearing that a window latch simply needed repair, and that a women's room latch was always screwed shut. So this may not be quite so nefarious.

    That's better news, for sure, assuming it holds up.


    Parent

    Not so. He's nuts, but (none / 0) (#61)
    by Towanda on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 04:02:46 PM EST
    not that nuts -- or too busy having his Capitol all prettied up, with all of those signs taken down, before he drops his even bigger budget bomb Tuesday.

    But, on a lighter note . . . life goes on in Madison, including for a lovely and proud "union bride" married last weekend, a friend of a niece of mine.  May their union be strong and long after such a wedding day, when the wedding party decided to party down with thousands of their best friends at the Capitol.

    Among many incredible moments reported from other friends there this weekend, especially in hours before the closing of the Capitol began on Sunday, were the moments when Madison's religious leaders marched in to protect protesters -- and then more than 600 retired police from across the state who came to join in the "sleep-in," too.  And there was the moving singalong to the song from Les Miz, "Do You Hear the People Sing?":

    Do you hear the people sing?
    Singing a song of angry men?
    It is the music of a people
    Who will not be slaves again!
    When the beating of your heart
    Echoes the beating of the drums
    There is a life about to start
    When tomorrow comes!

    Will you join in our crusade?
    Who will be strong and stand with me?
    Somewhere beyond the barricade
    Is there a world you long to see?
    Then join in the fight
    That will give you the right to be free!


       

    Parent
    Let us hope... (none / 0) (#60)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 03:47:27 PM EST
    nanny-statists and puritans don't get a load of this new report about the leading cause of mouth cancer...they might start looking to enforce all the old sodomy laws still sinfully on the books, unrepealed.

    My take, there are far worse things than being at greater risk of cancer...in this case, ummm...not being at greater risk of cancer:)

    I read it as a good argument (none / 0) (#63)
    by andgarden on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 04:21:58 PM EST
    for universal HPV vaccination.

    Parent
    That my friend... (none / 0) (#68)
    by kdog on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 05:02:06 PM EST
    is for parents and their daughters to decide...for good or ill.  Let us not forget the recent history of human guinea pigs.  And I put nothing past Merck...just sayin'.

    All this cancer is crazy though...two family members of dear friends recently diagnosed with brain cancer...one in their forties, one in their fifties. No words, just awful.

    Almost feels like might be easier to start with what doesn't cause cancer.

    Parent

    What doesn't cause cancer will kill you (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Towanda on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 05:34:10 PM EST
    from boredom. :-)

    Parent
    1/2 hr. to showtime @ (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 05:58:07 PM EST
    Le Poissone Rouge in the 100 block of Bleecker St.  Will oculus find it?  Stay tuned. (kdog where are you whe I need you?  Chelsea Diner wwaiter says he's never heard of the venue but Bleecker St. is but a short walk. What could go wrong????)

    I told ya just Saturday... (none / 0) (#100)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:00:49 AM EST
    I still get lost when I leave the numbered grid of midtown or the confines of my native Queens...hope ya found the gig!

    Parent
    I wonder (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 28, 2011 at 06:37:05 PM EST
    how many of those who comment here are:

    a. A current member of a government employee union?

    b. A current member of a private employee union?

    c. Been a past member of either a or b?

    I am a c and b.  You?

    I am B and C. (none / 0) (#96)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:31:42 AM EST
    You should know actual experience means nothing here.  It's all about: my dad he---,  my cousin knew someone that---,  I spoke with someone sometime about----, etc.

    That's the real experience most "progressives" have

    Parent

    A friend of mine wrote this (none / 0) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:49:05 AM EST
    One speaker on the National Review cruise said that we live our lives among the left and understand them. They, on the other hand, live among their own kind and have little association for the right so they form caricatures of the right.


    Parent
    The National Review cruise? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:57:40 AM EST
    Talk about a ship of fools!:

    I am standing waist-deep in the Pacific Ocean, indulging in the polite chit-chat beloved by vacationing Americans. A sweet elderly lady from Los Angeles is sitting on the rocks nearby, telling me dreamily about her son. "Is he your only child?" I ask. "Yes," she answers. "Do you have a child back in England?" she asks me. No, I say. Her face darkens. "You'd better start," she says. "The Muslims are breeding. Soon, they'll have the whole of Europe."

    I am getting used to such moments, when holiday geniality bleeds into--well, I'm not sure exactly what. I am traveling on a bright-white cruise ship with two restaurants, five bars, and 500 readers of National Review. Here, the Iraq war has been "an amazing success." Global warming is not happening. Europe is becoming a new Caliphate. And I have nowhere to run.

    From time to time, National Review--the bible of American conservatism--organizes a cruise for its readers. Last November, I paid $1,200 to join them. The rules I imposed on myself were simple: If any of the conservative cruisers asked who I was, I answered honestly, telling them I was a journalist. But, mostly, I just tried to blend in--and find out what conservatives say when they think the rest of us aren't listening.

    ...................................
    He tells 'em. Decter tells 'em. Steyn tells 'em. On this cruise, everyone tells 'em--and, thanks to my European passport, tells me. It is, unsurprisingly, the last thing I hear at the end of the voyage. I'm back on the docks of San Diego, watching the tireless champions of the overdog filter past and say their formal goodbyes. As I turn my back on the ship for the last time, I feel the judge I met the first day place his arm affectionately on my shoulder. "We have written off Britain to the Muslims," he says. "Come to America."



    Parent
    Link from The New Republic (none / 0) (#109)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:58:29 AM EST
    That neither you or the writer (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:20:03 PM EST
    recognized the truth about man made global warming and the demographic shift in Europe is obvious.

    You got the information for free. He had to pay for it... I wonder if he was reimbursed  the $1200.???

    ;-)

    Parent

    It's just a coincidence (none / 0) (#140)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:36:40 PM EST
    that the permafrost is getting warmer, I suppose:

    The carbon from permanently frozen ground--known as permafrost --will make its impact, not only on the climate, but also on international strategies to reduce climate change Schaefer said. "If we want to hit a target carbon concentration, then we have to reduce fossil fuel emissions that much lower than previously calculated to account for this additional carbon from the permafrost," Schaefer said. "Otherwise we will end up with a warmer Earth than we want."

    The carbon comes from plant material frozen in soil during the ice age of the Pleistocene: the icy soil trapped and preserved the biomass for thousands of years.  Schaefer equates the mechanism to storing broccoli in the home freezer: "As long as it stays frozen, it stays stable for many years," he said. "But you take it out of the freezer and it will thaw out and decay."

    Now, permafrost is thawing in a warming climate and--just like the broccoli--the biomass will thaw and decay, releasing carbon into the atmosphere like any other decomposing plant material, Schaefer said.  To predict how much carbon will enter the atmosphere and when, Schaefer and coauthors modeled the thaw and decay of organic matter currently frozen in permafrost under potential future warming conditions as predicted by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

    They found that between 29-59 percent of the permafrost will disappear by 2200. That permafrost took tens of thousands of years to form, but will melt in less than 200, Schaefer said.

    The scientists used a model to predict how much carbon the thawing will release.  They estimate an extra 190 plus or minus 64 gigatons of carbon will enter the atmosphere by 2200--about one-fifth the total amount of carbon currently in the atmosphere today.  Carbon emissions from thawing permafrost will require greater reductions in fossil fuel emissions, to limit the atmospheric carbon dioxide to some maximum value associated with a target climate, Schaefer said. "It means the problem is getting more and more difficult all the time," he said. "It is hard enough to reduce the emissions in any case, but now we saying that we have to reduce it even more."



    Click or NSIDC Me

    Scientists have recorded a massive spike in the amount of a powerful greenhouse gas seeping from Arctic permafrost, in a discovery that highlights the risks of a dangerous climate tipping point.

    Experts say methane emissions from the Arctic have risen by almost one-third in just five years, and that sharply rising temperatures are to blame.

    The discovery follows a string of reports from the region in recent years that previously frozen boggy soils are melting and releasing methane in greater quantities. Such Arctic soils currently lock away billions of tonnes of methane, a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, leading some scientists to describe melting permafrost as a ticking time bomb that could overwhelm efforts to tackle climate change.

    They fear the warming caused by increased methane emissions will itself release yet more methane and lock the region into a destructive cycle that forces temperatures to rise faster than predicted.Scientists have recorded a massive spike in the amount of a powerful greenhouse gas seeping from Arctic permafrost, in a discovery that highlights the risks of a dangerous climate tipping point.

    Click or Guardian Me

    Snopes.com on Muslim demographics:

    In the Netherlands, 50% of all newborns are Muslim.

    As of 2004, Muslims comprised about 5.8% of the population of the Netherlands. In order for this small percentage of the population to account for "50% of all newborns," Muslim women in the Netherlands would have to be giving birth, on average, to about 14 to 16 times as many babies each as non-Muslim women.

    # Currently in Belgium, 25% of the population and 50% of all newborns are Muslim.

    Muslims are the second-largest religious group in Belgium, but they still only account for about 4%-5% of the population. And, as noted above, for that small a segment of the population to be accounting for "50% of all newborns" in the country, Muslim women would have to be giving birth to incredibly large numbers of children each.

    # The German government, the first to talk about this publicly, recently released a statement saying: "The fall in the German population can no longer be stopped. Its downward spiral is no longer reversible. It will be a Muslim state by the year 2050."

    The quoted statement was made by Walter Radermacher, the vice-president of the Germany's Federal Statistical Office. However, he was speaking only of German population trends in general; the final sentence (about Germany's becoming a "Muslim state") is someone else's words, as he affirmed to the BBC:
    The quotation which reads as if the German government believed that Germany will become a Muslim state is simply not true. There is no source which can be quoted that the German government has published such an expression or opinion.

    # "There are currently 52 million Muslims in Europe. The German government said that number is expected to double in the next 20 years.

    The 52 million figure is a reasonable estimate for the number of Muslims in Europe. However, as the last part (about the Muslim population's doubling in the next two decades), Walter Radermacher said:
    That is not true. The German government does not believe that the Muslim population will double in [even] the next 40 or 50 years. There are no reliable sources that give a proof for that assumption.

    Click or Snopes Me

    Parent

    Where they wrong then or wrong now? (none / 0) (#161)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:26:31 PM EST
    There are ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production - with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas - parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia - where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon
    .

    Cool me now or warm me later. Newsweek 4/28/75

    Parent

    We're talking about trends that are clearly (none / 0) (#185)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:08:01 PM EST
    visible over many years, like the Arctic Sea Ice, vs. the generalized worry your article implies.

    Arctic sea ice extent averaged over January 2011 was 13.55 million square kilometers (5.23 million square miles). This was the lowest January ice extent recorded since satellite records began in 1979. It was 50,000 square kilometers (19,300 square miles) below the record low of 13.60 million square kilometers (5.25 million square miles), set in 2006, and 1.27 million square kilometers (490,000 square miles) below the 1979 to 2000 average.

    Ice extent in January 2011 remained unusually low in Hudson Bay, Hudson Strait (between southern Baffin Island and Labrador), and Davis Strait (between Baffin Island and Greenland). Normally, these areas freeze over by late November, but this year Hudson Bay did not completely freeze over until mid-January. The Labrador Sea remains largely ice-free.

    Click or NSIDC Me

    Nice try, but no cigar.

    Parent

    In between the lynching-in-effigy (none / 0) (#174)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 04:32:37 PM EST
    of the secret muslim-marxist President and the ceremonial inflating of the crowd surfing Palin blow up doll, they always relegate plenty of time for free-ranging, tolerant discussions of ideas from the Left..

    Parent
    None of the above... (none / 0) (#101)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:03:53 AM EST
    just cuz I'm a knucklehead so averse to joining anything...not getting a union job was me cutting off my nose to spite my face.

    I've had half a mind to try and organize the outfit I'm with, but when I put out feelers it is obvious no one has the stones to stand up for themselves around here...too afraid of making that next mortgage payment to make any noise.

    Parent

    If you were in a closed shop (none / 0) (#104)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:47:19 AM EST
    situation you wouldn't have a choice.

    I didn't, but I was happy to join. My Dad and Father-in-Law were Teamsters and I knew the good that some unions can do.

    My argument is not that private unions are bad. My argument is that government employee unions have led, and will always lead, to corruption and bribery.

    Parent

    You're getting beat up.. (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 08:57:09 AM EST
    over that point...I get ya.  Pols can win re-election votes from union workers by giving them sweetheart contracts.  Though as Don pointed out, the same thing goes down when pols hand out contracts to their private sector buddies...buying votes...it's as old as time old friend.

    It's an argument to elect better leaders, not an argument to outlaw collective bargaining, which is an inalienable right as far as I'm concerned.

    Parent

    Concentrations of money and power (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 09:06:54 AM EST
    can lead to corruption no matter if it's unions, management, city council members or even cops on the beat, as the recent case of Bell, CA has shown in recent months:

    A memo discovered in files of the Bell Police Department appears to outline a game in which police officers would compete to issue tickets, impound cars and arrest motorists.

    Titled the "Bell Police Department Baseball Game," the memo assigns "singles," "doubles," "triples" and "home runs" to progressively more serious infractions, starting with parking tickets and moving up to impounded vehicles and felony arrests. "Non performers," the memo said, would be "sent for minor league rehab stint."

    The discovery of the memo comes as the U.S. Department of Justice is investigating whether Bell police violated the civil rights of residents through improper towing of cars and code enforcement activities. Part of the investigation focuses on claims by some police officers that the department had quotas for issuing tickets and impounding cars. The officers say the enforcement actions were aimed at raising revenue for the city. Some officers have said they were reprimanded when they did not meet their goals.

    The one-page document, a copy of which was obtained by The Times, is the first to provide written evidence of a concerted effort to have officers pull over more cars, although it's unclear who wrote the memo or whether department officials had condoned it.

    Look on the bright side, at least the cops in Bell probably didn't belong to a union.............

    Click or LA Times Me


    Parent

    Are you claiming (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:03:06 AM EST
    that if they had no corruption would exist?

    That's risible.

    Parent

    I was being sarcastic (none / 0) (#120)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:11:35 AM EST
    I'm sorry if that wasn't obvious to you, PPJ, I'll do better next time.

    Parent
    That's sarcasm???? (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 11:57:25 AM EST
    How so?

    Parent
    I'm not here to hold your hand, PPJ (none / 0) (#138)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:21:49 PM EST
    Telling that some police (none / 0) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:16:32 PM EST
    organizations are corrupt is sarcasm?

    How so?

    BTW - Are you now or have you ever been a member of a union?

    Parent

    My point was that it was a case of (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:35:39 PM EST
    public employees being corrupt without any apparent involvement on the part of, if any, police union in Bell, CA.

    If you still don't get it, ask kdog to explain it to you.

    BTW - Are you now or have you ever been a member of a union?

    The merits of unionism exist independently of whether or not I've been in a union

    but nice try.  :-)

    Parent

    That's sarcasm? (none / 0) (#162)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:28:13 PM EST
    No one has claimed that all unions are corrupt.

    I will put you down as never belonging.

    But then we all have opinions about things we have never experienced.

    Parent

    Re: Not that all unions are corrupt (none / 0) (#183)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:01:38 PM EST
    but that public corruption can take place regardless of the presence or absence of a union in the first place.

    I will put you down as never belonging.

    No, you can put me down as refused, as in, "I refused to answer Poker Playing James' question."

    But then we all have opinions about things we have never experienced.

    Thanks again, Polonius.

    ;-)


    Parent

    Add... (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 09:10:01 AM EST
    I can't call the deal some unions get all that sweet either....compared to private sector, yeah, but relative to cost of living they're still getting peanuts brother...my union firemen buddies all need second jobs to support families.  The guys who selflessly run into buring buildings reduced to bouncing at bars on their off nights to give their children a good life...it's a mini-tragedy.  Meanwhile, NYC hires a buncha private sector grifters to create a paperless payroll system and they steal the store...I'd imagine similar sh*t goes down all over the Union, and they claim with a straight face that unions are the problem...its laughable.

    Parent
    And compared to (none / 0) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:01:25 AM EST
    military guys firemen/police have wonderful deals.

    kdog, if unions, as a whole are so great, why have they let the situation become as bad as everyone says??

    I mean, it looks like the union leaders have become totally controlled by management.

    In WI if you work for the state you are required to join the union and have your dues automatically sent to the union. Don't you think that the union should at least have to ask?

    Parent

    You got a point... (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:14:11 AM EST
    I certainly prefer voluntary associations...but it gets dicey, to get the union deal ya gotta pay dues, otherwise you're freeloading.

    I don't deny unions can be as crooked as a corporation...but thats an argument for better unions, union leadership also being held more responsible...its no reason to ban collective bargaining outright for public sector workers.

    BTW...sounds like the military rank & file should think about organizing too, their pay does suck for people who run into firefights like firefighters run into fires.

    Parent

    If you wanna see (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 04:41:27 PM EST
    an unadulterated, under-the-iron-heel totalitarian state that the Right utterly adores, take a look at the military..

    We're all for freedom and indivual rights until it comes to the organized sacrement/effort involved in killing non-christians and commies.

    Parent

    Or (none / 0) (#125)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 11:41:08 AM EST
    (wait for it) guys and gals who wear badges and go after people who in many cases, intend to shoot them.  :)

    Parent
    In many more cases... (none / 0) (#126)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 11:46:47 AM EST
    chasing people causing no harm to no one...but I know technically that is the fault of legislators, not their enforcers...maybe the PBA could do a little more for their due-payers on that front, so they aren't so hated by those they "serve", lol.

    Parent
    Ah, but they never know (none / 0) (#132)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:08:04 PM EST
    Like this officer, or this one.

    That's just in the last week.

    Parent

    The list of those killed by police... (none / 0) (#142)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:46:35 PM EST
    is longer...not to sound cold but if I signed up to wear the state's badge and strap on the state's gun, I'd expect to get shot at once in awhile...thats what happens when you chase people to put chains on them, they sometimes resist, and violently.  It's a basic human instinct.

    Parent
    Or what happens (none / 0) (#148)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:23:24 PM EST
    When you deal with scummy people for a living and $30,000 a year.

    Parent
    Again... (none / 0) (#152)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:40:35 PM EST
    they aren't being drafted.

    I will grant you that those out robbin' and stealin' or committing violent crimes should expect to be shot at too...nature of the police and thieves sector of our society.

    And who you callin' scummy?  I thought I was the one getting scummed during my run-ins:)

    Parent

    I don't think you're scummy (none / 0) (#153)
    by jbindc on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:45:07 PM EST
    I have a feeling you're pretty cool.  So jealous that oculus got to meet you! :)

    Parent
    Thanks... (none / 0) (#155)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:05:54 PM EST
    but I was just bustin' your chops.

    Of the 140 arrests per day in my city for my habitual crime, I assure you in the vast majority of those incidents the scum are wearing blue:)

    Parent

    True (none / 0) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 11:58:40 AM EST
    police work is dangerous.

    But don't compare it to the military.

    Parent

    Paying the dues instead (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:14:59 PM EST
    of having the dues deducted and given to the union is a tremendous method for control.

    Automatic deduction removes that control.

    I mean the Left is generically for renter's to stop paying rent when the landlords get out of control... why not give the same right to a worker??

    BTW - All forms of government (and organizations) can be benevolent, wise and competent.  

    The issue is how to find benevolent, wise and competent leaders.... and how to throw out those who are not.

    Parent

    Ya sold me... (none / 0) (#145)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:15:34 PM EST
    union dues (and taxes for that matter) should be paid, not taken...I concur.

    Parent
    That's fine. For you. (none / 0) (#154)
    by sj on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:52:47 PM EST
    As long as I, and others, still have the option of having them taken and not paid.  Otherwise your choice is infringing on my choice and that's no improvement at all.

    I prefer to have automated withdrawals on any number of things.  That is far from any sort of burden.

    -------
    As a post script to this concept:  I've heard people (and by "people" I mean relatives -- of ALL ages) over the years make the argument that they would just luuuurrrvvvve to handle their own retirement "investments" instead of having it come out automatically via FICA.  (Same argument against overpaying on federal in order to have  a hefty little return).  And yet, not one of those people put anything even in savings.  It's all talk, and what-ifs, and grousing because something is being withheld.  They are the very folks who would bring back the need for poorhouse save for SS in their golden years.

    Parent

    I hear ya... (none / 0) (#156)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:10:43 PM EST
    I'm just not big on protecting people from themselves sj...thats one of them roads to hell paved with good intentions.

    I'd opt out of SS if I could...not because I think I'm some kinda financial wizard, far from it, I'm awful with money...only because I'm not sold it'll be there in 40 years, and equally not sold I'll live long enough to make it worthwhile:)

    Parent

    You know what? (none / 0) (#157)
    by sj on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:16:23 PM EST
    Neither was I in my "youth" :)

    Now that the "40 years" is visible on the horizon, I'm sure glad that cooler heads than mine prevailed.   And that SS had stalwart defenders.

    Come to think of it, you have more reason than I to worry about that.

    Parent

    Natural cynic... (none / 0) (#168)
    by kdog on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:48:01 PM EST
    of all societal systems that I am, I think of people like my dad who paid all their lives and collected for a year...sh*t he was able to save more than that off his working class earnings.  And forget about the average black man and their lesser life expectancies...they get royally screwed.

    That being said, it has served many well, grandma had a good run, hopefully moms too (63 working waiting on 65)...I got no problem with that deduction on my check knowing it goes to some old person, its the income tax portion that gets me, and what that pays for...grrr:)

    Parent

    In the end (none / 0) (#171)
    by sj on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 03:04:48 PM EST
    that's how I came to terms with FICA, too.  I didn't mind paying for my grandparents' benefit.  And unlike yours, mine is a long-lived family.  Males approaching 80, females well into their 90's.

    So I intend to make full use of my benefit :)

    As for federal income tax withholding, I hear you more than you know.  I've longed for the ability to target where my taxes will be spent.  But, you know, if everyone did that there would be no Pentagon, and likely no DEA.

    I'd earmark my taxes for education and care/support for the homeless and un/under-employed,  and the National Endowment for the Arts.  As to priority, it would be different on different days most likely, but that's where my heart is.

    Parent

    The reality is that (none / 0) (#178)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 04:49:13 PM EST
    there is no option. The dues will be deducted.

    Parent
    I take my converts (none / 0) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:29:12 PM EST
    when and where I can get them!

    Parent
    If collective bargaining is (none / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:09:47 AM EST
    an inalienable right, then it follows that the individual must have the right to bargain with the union to either join, or not join.

    Right to work laws allow this. Closed shop laws, as in WI and other states, prevents the individual from bargaining with the union.

    And by doing so, the members do not have any control over the union.

    Even worse, dues are just taken from the pay check. So there is no financial reason for the union to listen to the individual.

    Parent

    Re:Collective barganing (none / 0) (#124)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:43:54 AM EST

    In the majority of U.S. states, employees who are working in a unionized shop may be required to contribute towards the cost of representation (such as at disciplinary hearings) if their fellow employees have negotiated a union security clause in their contract with management. Dues usually vary, but are generally 1-2% of pay. Some states, especially in the south-central and south-eastern region of the U.S., have outlawed union security clauses; this can cause controversy, as it allows individuals who benefit from the protection of union contracts to avoid paying their portion of the costs of contract negotiation, however these law pay more respect to an individual who wishes to exercise their right of free political association by preventing their union dues from being used to fund political causes that may be diametrically opposed to the individuals personal politics. Though certain business interests - attempting to weaken the power of unions - often advocate this sort of ban on union security clauses, the tactic can easily backfire, as the mandatory open shop, as such arrangements are called, may result in higher rates of unionization as workers no longer may be required to pay dues to be unionized, removing one obstacle to union success in elections. Note too that unions in states with the open shop have an incentive to build strong rank-and-file democracy among their memberships in order to sustain a high number of dues-paying members, rather than relying on the contract to bring dues in. This system thus favors a more active and responsive union, rather than a complacent one.

    Click or Wiki Me

    Parent

    You and DA (none / 0) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:00:38 PM EST
    always come up with some fact that we all know.

    The issue is that what is happening is BAD, not that it is happening.

    Parent

    Re:Collective barganing (none / 0) (#137)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:21:03 PM EST
    Then you shouldn't have any trouble linking to some facts and figures to demonstrate your contention, aside from a YouTube link and your own ramblings on this issue.

    Parent
    Start with WI (none / 0) (#139)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:24:40 PM EST
    and follow with some studying.

    Try and justify that automatically taking dues from a worker and giving it to the union doesn't remove 90% of the control that the worker has over the union.

    Parent

    You brought up the claim PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:38:54 PM EST
    so if you can point to a direction where facts and figures on this subject are to be found beginning with WI, that would be helpful.

    Parent
    I also claim that the sun will (none / 0) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:06:09 PM EST
    go down later today and come up again in the AM.\

    Would you also like me to demonstrate this basic truth?

    Parent

    No, just meeting my challenge (none / 0) (#149)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 01:28:07 PM EST
    will do for today.

    :-)

    Parent

    In case you missed my point (none / 0) (#165)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 02:36:39 PM EST
    I don't need 800 words copied from some source with a link to show that I read it. I wrote:

    If collective bargaining is an inalienable right, then it follows that the individual must have the right to bargain with the union to either join, or not join.

    Right to work laws allow this. Closed shop laws, as in WI and other states, prevents the individual from bargaining with the union.

    And by doing so, the members do not have any control over the union.

    Even worse, dues are just taken from the pay check. So there is no financial reason for the union to listen to the individual.


    I add:

    It is obvious that you believe in group rights. That's a well established position of the Left, and one in which I believe in for certain reasons.

    But on the whole my first position is individual rights.

    Parent

    Um (none / 0) (#184)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 06:03:55 PM EST
    the courts have held that employees still have to pay a fee to the union if they gain from the union contracts despite not belonging to them, so please read the Wiki article about the subject(which goes on in greater detail about the subject) and educate yourself (and, perhaps, others) as well.

    Parent
    As opposed to all the influence (5.00 / 2) (#172)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 03:37:35 PM EST
    workers have over board and management decisions in "Right to Work" states..

    I smell a scab mouthing warmed-over Hannityisms. Perusual.

    Parent

    Okay then (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 10:20:53 AM EST
    I would guess you are also against privatization which has been proven to rife with corruption and bribery and criminal activity.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#131)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 12:07:11 PM EST
    I cheered Bobby Kennedy on as he attempted to clean up the Teamsters as did my Father and Father-In-Law who were Teamsters.

    The deal is this. It is easier to clean up the private side because it is not involved in politics as directly as the government side.

    Plus, if the private side becomes too "corrupt" or gets too much in wages/benefits, the automatic self correction is that the factory/organization closes/goes out of business.

    Obama broke that mold with GM and Chrysler, but it still exists with the remainder and he can never do something similar again.

    Parent

    The private side is hugely (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 04:21:40 PM EST
    "involved in government": hence the legendary and endlesssly corrupting 'revolving door' door system - that no Rethug or Tea Partier has apparently ever heard of - with public and private inluence peddlers shuttling back and forth continully. We're talking about a system that for damage and longterm effects makes the Teamsters in the fifties and sixties look like the PTA..

    If you want to clean something up, maybe we need to have a protracted discussion about cleaning that up, rather than trying to make the relative small fish pay for the sins of a deregulation induced recession.

    Parent

    What I said at 11:07AM (none / 0) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 04:51:07 PM EST
    What I'd like to know is (none / 0) (#181)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 05:13:54 PM EST
    how does one from an (alleged) union family become so thoroughly the warmed-over platitude-mouthing company man? Massa finally let you into the big house?


    Parent
    The way jimakappj reads (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by christinep on Tue Mar 01, 2011 at 07:33:01 PM EST
    To tell you the truth, it rings false. It rings like someone playing games without regard to philosophy or belief (who gets a kick out of "engaging" TL people); or like a professional who is paid to write that way.  Why do I believe this? Because the pitter-patter, predictable talking-points, etc. have nothing to do with interaction...it is back & forth jab-jab and nothing more. And, to write anymore on this subject is to give the pretentious front much more credence than deserved.

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    No (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 02, 2011 at 05:03:09 AM EST
    they don't go out of business. Has Haliburton gone out of business? No, they haven't even though they have shown to be massively corrupt and inept when handling government contracts in Iraq.

    I don't think you know what I'm taking about when I say privatization. I'm saying when the government pays a private company to provide a service instead of providing the service itself. I've seen massive corruption here in GA and in SC regarding privatization of government services.

    Parent