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Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 03:18:25 PM EST
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Kevin Drum has been writing some great stuff on unions, Wisconsin, the Democratic Party and income inequality. You should check it out.

Open Thread.

< Will Obama Become A Progressive On Tax Policy After The 2012 Election? | GOP Govs Running Shy On Union Busting Bills >

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    Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread | 33 comments (33 topical)

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    wow (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 03:32:19 PM EST
    those charts are really discouraging.
    for the one shown in the first post to show what has happened to the very rich it cant even have enough pixels to show any bumps in the lower incomes.
    Makes it simple for a simple guy like me (none / 0) (#2)
    by republicratitarian on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 03:47:19 PM EST
    We should be starting at the top and working our way down, not starting at the bottom and working our way up.

    Parent
    westborough VS anonymous (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 03:52:29 PM EST
    we may need more popcorn.

    Dear Phred Phelps and WBC Phriends,

    So we've been hearing a lot about some letter that we supposedly sent you this morning. Problem is, we're a bit groggy and don't remember sending it. Our best guess is that you heard about us on that newfangled TV of yours and thought we might be some good money for your little church.

    You thought you could play with Anonymous. You observed our rising notoriety and thought you would exploit our paradigm for your own gain. And then, you thought you could lure some idiots into a honeypot for more IPs to sue.

    This is not so foreign to us; as you may have heard, we trade in Lulz. You just do not have enough to offer right now.

    While Anonymous thanks you for your interest, and would certainly like to take a break and have some fun with you guys, we have more pressing matters to deal with at the moment.

    Additionally, as your "Press Release" failed to understand: When Anonymous says we support free speech, we mean it. We count Beatrice Hall among our Anonymous forebears: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    Do some among our number hate you and your cynical exploitation of your human rights for monetary gain? Of course. But the MoralFags are also the first to admit that they are, in fact, your rights to exploit.

    In closing, let us assure you: We are not BAWWWING sissies, nor are we afraid of your false god; we're just really busy. Stay tuned, and we'll come back to play another day. We promise.
    We are Anonymous (none / 0) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 03:54:43 PM EST
    We are legion.
    We do not forgive.
    We do not forget.
    Expect us.

    Parent
    Here's a headline you don't see everyday (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:02:00 PM EST
    State Senator Johnson attacked by pit bull, injured by snowblower in fall.

    The 37-year-old Democrat said he was operating the machine on the driveway of his Highland Park home about 3:30 p.m. Monday when the dog approached.

    "I don't know from which direction, but there was a pit bull and he walked into the driveway," Johnson said this afternoon. "He looked at me and I looked at him and then he charged me."

    Johnson said he didn't have a shovel or anything else to repel the dog, so he tried to run away.

    "I slipped and put my left hand down to brace myself and it went into the snowblower," Johnson said. "The dog came at me and I kicked him in the nose. He chased me to my truck, but I was able to get in and drive to the hospital."
    its never the dogs fault. (none / 0) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:03:40 PM EST
    always the owner.  I hope he sues.

    Parent
    If they can find the owner (none / 0) (#8)
    by jbindc on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:05:19 PM EST
    If there is one.

    Parent
    sure (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:07:20 PM EST
    there is.  finding.  thats another thing.  I would guess given the circumstances it has to be the neighborhood.


    Parent
    Never say never (none / 0) (#35)
    by NYShooter on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 12:55:03 AM EST
    sometimes it is the dog, especially amateurs breeding.

    Parent
    Breeding dogs with troubled temperments (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Feb 23, 2011 at 08:18:32 AM EST
    is also an issue.  You are right.  It's sort of shocking to me that it wasn't something even some really knowledgable sort of famous breeders worried about a few years ago.  The internet seems to have changed that because people can communicate better between each other if "YOUR DOGS" are biting and attacking people.  Now we moved onto something very different, and if your dog hasn't been temperament certified you are losing credibility by breeding it.  If a dog has been temperament certified, gone through the extensive test, it has a TT or a TC in it's registered name.  It's a big deal passing the test.  I don't consider CGC (Canine Good Citizen) certification to be accurate.  I know dogs that have horrible temperaments that passed CGC.  On TT and TC certifications the dog gets a total point score and gives indicators of possible problem areas to be watchful for.  So even if someone has a TT or TC there are more questions to ask and more info available. What were the scores? What was the dog weak on?

    If you did get an animal that has a very poor temperament, that leaves some owners in a very tough spot, of becoming attached to an animal and then needing to put it to sleep.  And I like the dog whisperer.  I think he does wonderful work, but it isn't a magic cure for temperament issues.  Obedience training can fix many many miscommunications between dogs and people and really change attitudes, but IMO attitudes aren't core personality problems in dogs. It is a fact that there are dogs out there that can never be trusted.  And if I can't trust a dog around other people and particularly children, that is a risk that I am not willing to take or place in a different home and claim I had no idea.  I will put the animal down and we have done that once now.

    Parent

    Scary (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:12:47 PM EST
    I'm not afraid of dogs.  I was walking around the lake last year and some people on the other side of the lake had one.  They were renting though and he is gone now.  But they put an underground fence in, and I didn't know that.  I saw him come around the house to check me out and then he charged me.  It was a big front yard and figured if I remained calm and acted nonmenacing in all ways he would slow down.  He didn't, and he started that roar in his chest.  I then looked around me and there was no tree to climb, nothing I could get to to get on top of before he got to me.  Then he stopped dead in the yard, where the fence was, while I finished having a quiet heart attack on the side of road.

    Parent
    I've been working on some behavior (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:16:10 PM EST
    modification techniques with my fellow. Even when he's ''cranked up,' all I have to do is walk out with a leash and it breaks his cycle.

    He's only territorial about his own yard, and he's dog friendly, so...

    As Capt Howdy said, it's the owner's fault. The dog gets the blame, and often the needle, but it's an owner issue.

    Parent

    It was a strange experience (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:21:45 PM EST
    I'm around big dogs all the time.  I have even shown Presa Canarios that did not know me when their owner was short a handler at a dogshow.  That dog really faked me out.  I'm lucky I didn't pee myself.

    Parent
    when I used to live in NYC (none / 0) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:23:24 PM EST
    and would walk with my golden I would often carry a Gandalf like staff I made just for that purpose.  in case of pitt bulls and a$$hole owners.

    which were legion in the 80s


    Parent

    Another lady walks around the lake (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:27:51 PM EST
    here packing a piece of pipe.  I think that same dog must have scared the pee out of her too and it has forever changed her perspective on walking around the lake :)

    Parent
    absolutely (none / 0) (#20)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:21:54 PM EST
    pitt bulls can be very sweet and friendly dogs.  like kids, its all in how they are raised.


    Parent
    which remindes me of something (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:25:32 PM EST
    how long has it been since you saw the Henry Fonda "12 Angry Men"?

    I saw it over the weekend.  what an amazing movie.

    there is a great line.  some jerk ask "why are you always so polite?"
    "for the same reason you are not.  its the way I was raised."

    Parent

    I was at a UKC show last year (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:30:17 PM EST
    that was a supported entry for pitbulls. There were at least 50 pits all standing together at different times, because they had a weight pull too that is a huge event for pits, and never once was there an incident of any dog having less than terrific manners.

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#28)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:35:25 PM EST
    Our Golden Ajax proved that to me.....

    Never knew anything but love.  He would approach everyone.  As he got bigger, I would try to stop him....I went camping with him and he was off leash, and he just ran up to a guy.  The guy felt threatened and smacked Ajax in the chest.

    I'll never forget the look of bewilderment on Ajax's face.  He just didn't get it.

    Parent

    There was a great documentary on JFK (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:05:09 PM EST
    on the Documentary Channel last night.

    All kinds of t.v. footage of press conferences and real time statements that tend to get little coverage now.....

    JFK was unbelievably smart and tough and decent--it surprised me how much so.  We tend to think he is overrated.  Not so.  Underrated.  Severely underrated.

    One interchange was between him and Curtis Lemay during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  This was apparently an actual audio recording taken at the time.  Lemay is--without much respect--trying to push JFK into war.  He says war is inevitable; that he thinks JFK is wrong on his military and strategic views; that even if the Soviets try to take West Berlin as JFK feared, the U.S. would simply retaliate; that Americans will demand he go to war; that Americans think he is weak. Lemay finishes his attempt at disrespectful bullying by saying:

    "You're in a real fix, Mr. President."

    JFK cooly responds,  "You're right there with me."

    There is a snippet of JFK admonishing an aide in giving statements to the press.  JFK tells the aide that he messed up and created news that was not meant to be created, sending the wrong message--during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  What struck me is that during the most pressure-packed moment possible, and after a clear screw up that could have had dire consequences, JFK was not hostile, did not berate the aide, but clearly and calmly--and respectfully--described the error and how it should be avoided in the future.....

    Impressive.  How many bosses can do that in the real world?...I could hear no strain in JFK's voice during the Cuban Missile Crisis....

    The premise behind the documentary was that JFK would have followed up his directive to bring home 1000 U.S. advisors from Vietnam--and continued to descalate the war.  No President was pushed harder to go to war by his own military than JFK, the narrator reasons, and resisted.  He refused to go to war over the Bay of Pigs.  The Cuban Missile Crisis.  The Berlin Wall....So, he would have resisted in Vietnam too, the reasoning goes.

    Just listening to JFK, I was amazed.  I kept thinking what a great example of Greek Reason.  And Enlightenment Compassion....


    I no longer get the Doc Chan, (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by brodie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:14:25 PM EST
    but from your summary plus a quick google it sounds like they were airing the recent film Virtual JFK, made a couple of years ago by a doc filmmaker working with the historian James Blight.  

    There was also a much more in-depth companion book that was published -- which I highly recommend -- which detailed a multi-day conference held a few years back involving scholars and experts and insiders on the pro-JFK withdrawal and anti- sides, plus a small undecided group, discussing and debating the issue.  

    Re the Missile Crisis, I think JFK arranged to have tapes secretly made of the ExComm meetings after the previous year's BoP disaster when some advisers made a few dubious claims after the fact about having warned Kennedy against it early on, etc.  This time, JFK wanted a clear record of who said what.  And with the military chiefs, the tapes captured a few extraordinary moments.  Sorensen in his memoirs said one moment -- a chiefs discussion after Kennedy had left the room -- sounded straight out of Seven Days in May.

    Agree about your assessment of JFK being vastly underrated.  Even for less than 3 yrs in office, he did a good deal and began getting the ball rolling on more by the time of his tragic death.  A bold, courageous leader who went against the rigid thinking of the nat'l security establishment time and again -- and some believe it may have cost him his life.  

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#22)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:23:27 PM EST
    I had been a grassy knoll buff for years....but after awhile, there was just no corroboration.....So, lone nut made sense to me....

    But actually hearing the dismissive and arrogant tone in Lemay's voice, I wondered again if perhaps there was a conspiracy....Not that it was Lemay....But Lemay's reaction showed that JFK really went against the grain of so much in the Establishment--and was still popular with voters--that an extracurricular "Second Amendment" remedy was perhaps seen as attractive by a bunch of extremists....    

    Parent

    MKS, if you haven't (none / 0) (#33)
    by brodie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:50:11 PM EST
    read the recent book by Jim Douglass -- JFK and the Unspeakable -- it's highly highly recommended.  Both as to how Dallas happened -- clearly a conspiracy -- and why it happened, as he discloses the documentary record about JFK's withdrawal from VN and his moves towards détente with the Soviets (including a joint US-USSR mission to the Moon) and normalization of relations with Cuba.  

    Parent
    Suggested viewing (none / 0) (#14)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:40:47 PM EST
    on JFK - the movie "13 Days"; it's a very accurate portrayal of the events surrounding the Cuban Missile Crisis.  Written from the point of view of Kenny O'Donnell, Kennedy's first campaign adviser; it's very true to the transcript of the ExCom meetings as well.

    Parent
    Kenny O'Donnell (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by NYShooter on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:18:37 PM EST
    was more than a campaign advisor, though he was that.

    He was as close, and protective, of Jack as a father to his son. Excuse the overused 60's term, "Soul Brother," but here, it fits.

    Parent

    Kenny O'D was chief of (none / 0) (#31)
    by brodie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:44:11 PM EST
    staff, campaign adviser, fierce Kennedy loyalist, all that.  Started out though as Bobby's roommate at Harvard, and they were teammates on the football team (KO'D was QB).  

    Kenny O'D was the guy probably who had the angriest reaction in that L.A. hotel room in 1960 when he suddenly got the word about LBJ being put on the ticket, after O'D had gone around to labor and civil rights leaders reassuring them that of course Kennedy wasn't about to pick Lyndon.  KO'D was one of the very few people who could talk to JFK in a very blunt, frank way and not be resented or worse for it.  

    Tough as nails old fashioned liberal, the kind they don't make any more.

    Parent

    Yep, quality movie (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by brodie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:29:50 PM EST
    that stayed fairly close to the documented record (with some Hollywood allowance for a somewhat larger role for Kenny O'Donnell -- the character played by the actor who co-produced the film, Kevin Costner).  

    A good companion to that is Errol Morris' documentary Fog of War, re SecDef Rbt McNamara, who discusses the Missile Crisis and Kennedy at length.  

    VN too -- and in the DVD of that doc, there is in the Extras section a remarkable yet little-noted (by historians) tape recording of a Feb 1964 phone call between LBJ and McN -- 2-3 months only after Johnson took office -- wherein you hear Johnson basically acknowledging that he knew of Kennedy's decision to withdraw troops, then LBJ telling McN how much he thought that was unwise, how it sent the wrong message to our allies, etc, but that at the time JFK decided, he (VP Lyndon) "just sat there and said nothing".  

    Johnson is then heard telling McN, who asks him what he should say about VN at his next presser, to talk more about how the US considers VN vital to our nat'l security interests, etc.  McN here clearly isn't advising -- rather it's Johnson clearly ordering him to begin talking up Johnson's suggested tougher policy line.  So much for the apologists who contend or imply that poor LBJ wouldn't have gone in to Nam but for those inherited war hawks Kennedy left him with their bad advice -- you hear him on this phone call clearly laying down the law to McNamara, and rather bluntly and rudely.

    Parent

    Ezra Klein doesn't understand (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by andgarden on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:17:14 PM EST
    why Unions support Medicaid. I don't understand how Ezra doesn't understand. He has apparently never heard of unionized nurses.

    Well he doesn't understand (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:56:44 PM EST
    why the poorest downtrodden labeled losers in our society aren't out in force protesting because people who wanted a public option were tying up their medicaid expansion....as if a medicaid expansion is experienced as anything other than more money available that they will be humiliated first in order to receive.  As if in a poor person's life medicaid gets to ever be perceived as a precious asset that they have worked for and have a right to, and they collectively bargain for.

    I know I'm supposed to think the guy is bright, but I just don't!

    Parent

    Courtesy of Digby: (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by oculus on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:35:37 PM EST
    camel rider in Madison

    Ezra is from Irvine (none / 0) (#13)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 04:40:17 PM EST
    Went to University High School (a public school)--which is the academically best high school in Orange County....

    Irvine is not so stereotypical Orange County, as it is conceived by many.  Its long time Mayor was (real) Socialist Larry Agran.  University of California Irvine is some 60% or more Asian.

    Orange County as a whole almost went for Obama....

    It all depends on whether you are above or below the Mason Dixon line.  Northern Orange County is heavily Latino in Anaheim/Santa Ana.  Westminster has the largest Vietnamese population outside of Saigon (Ho Chi Minh City) and the younger kids are not Republicans like their parents.  Irvine is heavily Asian with a large Korean population...South of Newport Beach, you have the more conservative areas....

    All true (none / 0) (#32)
    by MKS on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 05:44:13 PM EST
    But Loretta Sanchez beat B-1 Bob in 1996.

     Emblematic of the changes.....

    Parent

    Re B-1 Bob: I recall (none / 0) (#34)
    by brodie on Tue Feb 22, 2011 at 06:00:07 PM EST
    a summer or two in L.A. in the late 1960s as a youngster, watching teevee in the afternoon and there was this red-headed, uptight, vein-popping RWer spouting extremist dogma from somewhere to the right of Barry Goldwater.  It was a local public affairs program he co-hosted on one of the indy channels, after being brought on to balance the original very liberal host, local newsman Stan Bohrman (a decade later he had a small role as the tv anchor in the movie The China Syndrome).  

    Quite a show, an early Crossfire I suppose, though you could tell neither host felt entirely comfortable in the forced setting -- and a time or two both hosts nearly came to blows, or this is what I recall.  B-1 certainly seemed eager to want to go at it, but Stan wisely never gave him that satisfaction.

    Parent

    Tuesday Afternoon Open Thread | 33 comments (33 topical)

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