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Friday Afternoon Open Thread

It's the end of another busy work week.

Jack Abramoff's lobbying partner Michael Scanlon has been sentenced to twenty months and ordered to repay $20 million.

Obama will be making a live statement on Egypt at 3:00 p.m. ET.

Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Mubarak Resigns | Friday Night Open Thread: Revolution >
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    Well, Mubarak prob. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:29:53 PM EST
    Wanted to stay to sfeguard his fortune. The former Nobel winner/Atomic Energy inspector Egptian protest figurehead was asked this morning on CNN;  is it important to recover Mubarak's assets. Darn right was his answer.

    elbaradei? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:37:30 PM EST
    that guy just grates for some reason.

    Parent
    Gee Capt (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by cal1942 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 09:36:40 PM EST
    he grated on Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld as well.

    Parent
    HA (none / 0) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:04:05 PM EST
    wasnt were I was going but OK.

    I dont know.  he just seems the teensiest bit smarmy and opportunistic.

    but maybe its just me.

    Parent

    I only a have a few of his writings (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by sj on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:32:27 PM EST
    by which to measure.  And they're awesome and far from smarmy.  

    Never seen how he presents himself.  But you know you can't judge all peoples against US style body language.  That sounds clunky but I'm having a hard time coming up with a better way to make my point.  :(

    Parent

    he just seemed (none / 0) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:34:30 PM EST
    to be constantly trying to insert himself into this a little to hard.

    but as I said.  I am harsh and it could be me.

    Parent

    Superb Point sj (none / 0) (#151)
    by cal1942 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 09:35:29 PM EST
    I've tried to come up with another way of saying what you've said but I'm not having any luck.

    Difference in culture probably sums it all up.

    Parent

    Marc Lynch (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:38:54 PM EST
    has some analysis of today's events at Foreign Policy.

    The Obama administration also deserves a great deal of credit, which it probably won't receive.  It understood immediately and intuitively that it should not attempt to lead a protest movement which had mobilized itself without American guidance, and consistently deferred to the Egyptian people.   Despite the avalanche of criticism from protestors and pundits, in fact Obama and his key aides -- including Ben Rhodes and Samantha Power and many others -- backed the Egyptian protest movement far more quickly than anyone should have expected.     Their steadily mounting pressure on the Mubarak regime took time to succeed, causing enormous heartburn along the way, but now can claim vindication.  By working carefully and closely with the Egyptian military, it helped restrain the worst violence and prevent Tiananmen on the Tahrir -- which, it is easy to forget today, could very easily have happened.   No bombs, no shock and awe, no soaring declarations of American exceptionalism, and no taking credit for a tidal wave which was entirely of the making of the Egyptian people -- just the steadily mounting public and private pressure on the top of the regime  which was necessary for the protestors to succeed.

    History is written by the victors of course.  It was disappointing to see us not be more supportive but...I really don't know if our support would've affected greater or faster change.  Listening to Al Jazeera today, aside from just covering the celebrations, the story was - what really did happen?  Yesterday was truly bizarre, with Panetta claiming Mubarak was going to most likely step down.

    LOL.  Just went over to Booman's and got what I expected.  Obama rules, based largely on a speech from a year and a half before the protests, and Biden, Wisner, and Clinton suck.  OOOOOK...

    very (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:48:37 PM EST
    astute.
    I thought it was funny last night hearing that there were two camps in the administration.  one led by Hillary and one led by Powers (who got fired from the campaign for calling her a monster)

    oh to have been a fly on that wall.

    Parent

    Hah! (none / 0) (#34)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:07:34 PM EST
    No kidding.  Who knows what happened.  The truth is throughout the process the official message was very vague.

    Parent
    from all indications (none / 0) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:14:24 PM EST
    in this case I was totally in the Powers camp.

    Parent
    Two camps? (none / 0) (#44)
    by brodie on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:24:29 PM EST
    Can anyone help here with a cite?

    Parent
    it was on MSNBC last night. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:25:56 PM EST
    Tweety or Lawerence.  should be on the site.

    Parent
    Looks like it might (none / 0) (#71)
    by brodie on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:52:28 PM EST
    have originated with an LAT article from yesterday -- two camps, about when and how Mubarak leaves, not whether.

    Parent
    no (none / 0) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:55:42 PM EST
    this was talking about two camps in relation to the US response.  Hillary and Gates were more old school.  I actually heard Hillary say pretty much the same thing the VP was saying.
    Powers and some other guy whos name escapes me were much more gung ho about getting on the right side of history.

    Parent
    I have no problem (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:04:37 PM EST
    believing that Secretaries Clinton or Gates had a more conservative approach.  And I am Team Power on this one.  But where the hell Booman drew these conclusions from

    The brave Egyptian people deserve the credit for making this revolution happen, but it was crucial that our president signaled his support for the effort, did everything he could to protect them a violent crackdown, and finally put his finger on the scale at the crucial moment.

    is beyond me as literally noone outside of the WH seems to have any knowledge of what exact role the US played in pressuring Mubarak.

    At this point inasmuch as I'm interested in the inside baseball of it I'm mostly interested in why Panetta spoke so soon.  I think the explanation that he based his words on "published reports" is probably B.S.

    Parent

    I don't have a major (none / 0) (#94)
    by brodie on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:11:32 PM EST
    problem if a few advisors were in a more cautious camp.  Fine.  Gates and Hillary are not exactly revolutionaries.

    I just heard something a little different -- perhaps from another blog -- that the cautious camp, that included VP Biden, was about arranging to keep Mubarak in power, an entirely different thing and unacceptable if true.

    Parent

    oh (none / 0) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:19:37 PM EST
    just defining what I saw last night and honestly it could have been anywhere I was surfing so as not to reach my limit and harm my tv on any one US news network.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:29:50 PM EST
    If it is true that Gates and Clinton (none / 0) (#137)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:28:37 PM EST
    hoped to dictate to the Egyptian people how this would go down....shame on them.  If they had any part in inspiring Mubarak to make that second speech where he told everyone to stuff it until September again, a pretty shameful display that really really pi$$ed Egyptians off even more.  If it is true that they were trying to prop Mubarak up and his regime up, not their finest hour by a long shot!

    This could be a time when Obama's lack of conviction and speedy resolve actually led to a better outcome in the end.

    Parent

    See that's the thing (none / 0) (#154)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 10:02:10 PM EST
    I highly doubt that anyone in the US gov't wanted Mubarak to make the speech he did yesterday.  Unless Cheney is possessing otherwise normal, democratically-oriented bodies, I see that as impossible ;)  But we do supply the military with their weapons and tanks.  All of which are now symbols of a hopefully better future.  I have been watching Al Jazeera, which has not been the US tea leaves network.  I just find it hard to believe, with what we know, that we actually KNOW anything about the US gov't and our dealings with Egypt.  I suppose we will know soon...

    Parent
    I can see some of our (none / 0) (#174)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 03:42:18 PM EST
    current leadership arguing for a slow transition, as if that was theirs to argue.  The U.S. is run by the oligarchs right now, and on a global scale Mubarak was a part of that.  I can believe that some argued for Mubarak to stay in office until Septemeber, and they sent Wisner too.  The fact that they sent Wisner into this, for me, fits the goal of keeping Mubarak in place until September like a glove.

    I don't think that Obama resisted them for the sake of Egypt either though.  He is frightened about being decisive about anything.  When it came to Afghanistan he wouldn't make a decision, things were getting very bad and troops were about to be overrun in places and he still couldn't decide to stay or go.  He wanted to stay as we were but that was not an option since we were about to be overrun.  It took him forever to commit to an action though.  I think he didn't know what he wanted to do about Egypt, and that was fortunate because Egypt isn't our to decide.  We aren't their government, but our government tends to think it is everyone's government until they get told off and/or the door shut in their faces.

    Parent

    The oligarchs (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by sj on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 03:15:51 PM EST
    needed more planning time.  Glad they didn't get it.

    Parent
    Me too (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 06:13:58 PM EST
    I hope Egypt can track down her money that Mubarak stole from her too and get what it can back.  They are setting examples that the rest of the world can follow.

    I watched Cornel West on Bill Maher this weekend talk about how when Egyptians stood up they stengthened all of us.  He also said that Americans need to learn something from Egypt when it comes to dealing with America's oligarchy.  I just love him. Seldom do I ever find myself with a differing opinion, but he says things how I wish that I could say them.

    Parent

    The return of deft, diplomacy. (none / 0) (#35)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:07:44 PM EST
    Other than doing what we could (none / 0) (#140)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:39:57 PM EST
    to make sure that the military wouldn't turn on the people (and we owed the people that since we had outfitted the military), I think that anything else we may have done would have and could have blown up in our faces and damaged the voice of the people.

    It can't be our revolution or we taint the outcome and their strength, it must be theirs.

    Parent

    Scahill tweets: (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:50:11 PM EST
    "seriously think some analysts interviewed on US networks today on #Egypt have the following credentials: eaten falafel."

    HA! (none / 0) (#80)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:58:46 PM EST
    Noooo sh*t.

    Parent
    Jim: don't forget The (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by oculus on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:12:30 PM EST
    Committee of the Wise Men.

    For some inexplicable reason (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by lilburro on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:32:18 PM EST
    I often feel bad for Michele Bachmann.  She is so earnest, yet so wrongheaded.  So awful, yet so oblivious.  So without guile, yet so vile.  Here she is at CPAC with the "rent is too damn high!" party leader/sole member Jimmy McMillan.

    it all an act (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:35:30 PM EST
    the woman is pure evil.  dogs wet themselves when she walks by.

    Parent
    If Egypt could pull this much off... (5.00 / 3) (#103)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:34:49 PM EST
    ...then America certainly could've survived the toppling of the Wall Street dictatorship. Unless we believe the imaginary and useless trinkets and blips that make up our currency are more powerful and important than flesh and blood human beings.

    How timid we are.  How fearful.

    Agree with you on this Dadler (none / 0) (#148)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 08:33:18 PM EST
    We opted to let tyrants take us for another spin or two because things could get dicey.  And things still got dicey and continue to get dicier still.

    Parent
    just read Obamas (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 02:55:57 PM EST
    statement.  
    I thought it was pitch perfect.


    From my comment in the orevious (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:41:18 PM EST
    thread (hold onto your hats, it's actually complimentary of Obama...eek!):

    The best part was that he framed it entirely in terms of Egypt and the Egyptian people, and not by reference to America's great democracy.

    For that, I am thankful, because the emphasis deserved to be, and needed to be, on Egypt and the huge victory they won over the last 18 days - period.

    It was simply refreshing to me that Obama allowed the Egyptians to have their moment, and the spotlight he held up to these historic events did not have us in it, waving a figurative "hi, Mom" to the cameras.

    I'm sure we're in there, somewhere, but this was and is Egypt's time.

    ..........

    I both listened to it - not something I generally do - and read it; the transcript I read reminded me of what happens when you put the closed-captioning on - some words don't make sense - and maybe that's the "bad writing" that has been mentioned.

    Parent

    In many ways...miraculous. (Thanks :) ) (none / 0) (#32)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:03:45 PM EST
    Yes. You see it (none / 0) (#48)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:26:33 PM EST
    because you care about the language.  Thanks.

    Parent
    as long (none / 0) (#50)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:27:57 PM EST
    as our priorities are straight I guess.

    Parent
    My priority is a president (2.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:33:56 PM EST
    who is better served by his staff than what we too often see -- as you agree in hitting Gibbs below.

    But beyond Gibbs, you're okay with my president consistently getting poor work from too many of his people?  That's appalling, and you ought to start changing your priorities and supporting this president in all that he needs to succeed.  Shame on you.

    Parent

    I have never doubted (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:37:54 PM EST
    that your only concern was for the president and that his staff be infallible in presenting him in the best light possible.  never a doubt about that.

    Parent
    Good. (none / 0) (#63)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:41:58 PM EST
    Too bad that I had not doubted your support, either -- until now, when I finally can see through your comments.  I have read about this strategy from cmmmenters on other blogs, undermining support for Obama, but you have been more skilled than most.

    Parent
    omg (none / 0) (#66)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:44:33 PM EST
    a little help
    is this projection?
    delusion?
    obsession?
    all of the above?

    I give up

    Parent

    Don't give up, Captain (none / 0) (#82)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:59:39 PM EST
    Try some Yoga breathing, and some simple meditation.  Ommmmmm.  Failing that, a good stiff drink might help.   ;-)

    Parent
    Capt: Isn't what he is doing called (none / 0) (#83)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:00:24 PM EST
    BS?

    Parent
    wait what (none / 0) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:04:51 PM EST
    speaking of commercials (none / 0) (#96)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:12:37 PM EST
    If you're a shill... (none / 0) (#89)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:08:04 PM EST
    I'm an astronaut.

    I don't give two sh*ts about grammar...I'm getting a kick out of this nonviolence talk and Biden telling Iran to open their jails today...sh*t what about us?  Ya kiddin' me?  I now its not as bad, but still, what pairs.

    Parent

    how much (none / 0) (#100)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:27:35 PM EST
    "flight time" is required to be an astronaut?

    we might both qualify.

    Parent

    I do care about language, which I (none / 0) (#150)
    by Anne on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 09:12:47 PM EST
    guess makes me some kind of dinosaur; there is so much bad writing out there, and most people just don't care.

    That being said, I haven't checked the WH website to see the actual, official, transcript, so I still don't know if what I read was the sort of closed-captioned version it seemed like it was.

    Parent

    An organci democracy that comes of age (none / 0) (#106)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:38:33 PM EST
    from within....There is nothing more beautiful than that....

    Democracy at the point of a bayonet has its limits as we have seen in certain countries.....

    It would seem Obama let the Egyptians have the the limelight on this....His public comments became more frequent and more pointed as the events unfolded.

    It would be fascinating to see what was happening behind the scenes.

    Parent

    'Agree MKS (none / 0) (#129)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:39:57 PM EST
    As I approach those senior years, I can say that this is one of the most exhilarating days--in terms of what a democratic uprising means--that I have ever witnessed.  And yet: As I type this, it is so clear that the revolution, at the critical culminating points, was aided by diplomacy as it should be.  Hard, direct, intelligent, driven diplomacy. (Can we even imagine what Bush would have done? The thought gives me the shakes.) Some of it will keep leaking out during this communication age...but, I think we know that this President, our President, demonstrated outstanding skill in the culmination phase.

    Parent
    The conclusion (none / 0) (#160)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 06:53:34 AM EST
    is that Obama says things, repeats things, that don't make sense just because they are on the teleprompter.

    Doesn't he have a functioning analytical brain of his own?

    Parent

    Clearly, in many cases, he does (none / 0) (#168)
    by Towanda on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 11:26:44 AM EST
    exhibit his obvious intelligence, or at least the contrast in those cases are clear to me.  But I guess I'm not among a group that wants more of that, a group that prefers that he continue to be poorly served -- perhaps the same sort of commenters here whose contribution is 100 tweets a day rather than real discourse.  

    But if he is poorly served, we are poorly served.  (Perhaps he needs to get Axelrod back into the WH?)

    Parent

    I don't think there are many who question (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 06:16:13 PM EST
    Obama's intelligence, but if the message that is being crafted for him isn't the message he wants to be communicating, isn't it up to him to swap out staff until he has what he wants?

    I have a hard time imagining Obama not making it known that he isn't happy with the message - so if he's delivering what is being crafted for him, isn't he on some level approving that message?

    I think there's been a tendency to point the finger at those around Obama, to make excuses of one kind or another, so as to deflect the responsibility - and to avoid having to accept that what you see, what you hear and what you read IS Obama, and holding him accountable for it.

    For two years, I've heard that Obama just needs to find his spine, that Obama just needs better people around him, that Obama has some secret 11-dimensional plan that we aren't smart enough to figure out - and I think that's gone a long way to preventing Democrats from figuring out how to get what they've wanted all along, and which they are not getting from a center-right president masquerading as a Democrat.

    It's my belief that Obama is doing exactly what he wants to do, that he is advancing the agenda he wants, and the sooner people accept that, the better able they will be to strategize to advance something more Democratic, more liberal, more of the people; if they keep deluding themselves that pretty soon, the "real" Obama will reveal himself, they will have only themselves to blame when they end up with Republican policy.

    Parent

    Axelrod exit interview: (none / 0) (#179)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 06:26:48 PM EST
    Q Where did you fail personally?

    A My biggest regret is that, because we were this triage unit dealing with this great crisis, there wasn't a lot of time to focus on the larger narrative. Part of the obligation of the president is to continually project forward and remind people of those fundamental principles and values and the vision that you're driving toward. Nobody does that better than Barack Obama, but we didn't always give him the chance to do that during the first two years. I think we lost that thread a little bit. We were too prosaic at times. There were a lot of days when we asked him to go out and do fairly prosaic things at times, and we sort of squandered the platform. I regret that.

    LAT

    Parent

    Axelrod's entire focus is positioning Obama (none / 0) (#180)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 06:32:18 PM EST
    for re-election, and that is the apple to the orange of actual policy and governance; I can't speak for anyone else, but if what we're seeing is Obama's vision, those of us who fall into the 98% who aren't among the elite just aren't in the frame.

    Parent
    "...we asked him to go out and do fairly (none / 0) (#192)
    by sj on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 03:19:58 PM EST
    prosaic things at times, and we sort of squandered the platform. I regret that."

    Didn't O have a say in this?

    Parent

    "An empty vessel," the candidate sd. (none / 0) (#194)
    by oculus on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 11:53:04 PM EST
    Ah. So he did. (none / 0) (#195)
    by sj on Mon Feb 14, 2011 at 09:23:24 AM EST
    We should have believed him.

    Parent
    as opposed to commenters (none / 0) (#169)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 11:30:59 AM EST
    like, well, like you.  

    who believes that english speaking canadians loath french speaking canadians because of some ancient alleged genocide and  not because they do things like stamp their feet and demand the every sign and label in canada be bilingual, among other things costing the taxpayers billions of dollars, and then refuse to post bilingual signs and lables in their own province.  of course it could never be because of sh!t like that.

    you really should climb down off the high horse.  it might just bite you on the ass.


    Parent

    Capt Howdy, please stop (none / 0) (#170)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 11:37:21 AM EST
    the insults. There's no need to insult other commenters.

    Parent
    sorry (none / 0) (#171)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 11:40:14 AM EST
    difficult to respond to an insult with praise.

    Parent
    Now, why would you take (none / 0) (#177)
    by Towanda on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 05:09:09 PM EST
    a generalization so personally -- and so literally?  You really post here 100 times a day?  

    Parent
    I've been looking for it (none / 0) (#2)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:01:46 PM EST
    Where did you find it?

    Parent
    here (none / 0) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:03:35 PM EST
    Me too (none / 0) (#5)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:09:03 PM EST
    I love this part:

    For in Egypt it was the moral force of nonviolence, not terrorism, not mindless killing, but nonviolence, moral force that bent the arc of history toward justice once more. And while the sights and sounds that we heard were entirely Egyptian, we can't help but hear the echoes of history, echoes from Germans tearing down a wall, Indonesian students taking to the streets, Gandhi leading his people down the path justice.

    Well done.

    Parent

    I'm glad that I got to see (none / 0) (#10)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:19:50 PM EST
    and hear some of it before reading that -- the contrast really brings home how good Obama can be at delivery . . . because now with the link, I can see that a lot of that speech is really poor writing.  What the heck is with that office in the White House, anyway, and this after hours of delay on the speech to get it together for him to deliver?

    Let's hope that the new Chief of Staff shapes 'em up and fast.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:08:55 PM EST
    reading the speech it just sounds like a nonsensical word salad. the speech writers have really been doing a poor job lately. I think they have a problem with putting words together in the context of anything outside of a rally type atmosphere.

    Parent
    Yes. (none / 0) (#158)
    by Towanda on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 06:37:32 AM EST
    And I'm not surprised that the commenters here -- actual commenters, not those who do little more than tweet and bleat -- also deplore the writing.

    Parent
    Oh my gosh... (none / 0) (#11)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:23:11 PM EST
    Lighten up, Towanda. People (even WH staff) can be "forgiven" for not doing everything on robotic/automatic clock-work. Today is a day for rejoicing in all our humanity. (C'mon, doesn't sainthood follow later?)

    Parent
    Does good grammar follow later, too? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:18:19 PM EST
    I mean, for what these people are paid, they could make an intelligent man's record for posterity be grammatical, anyway.  Perhaps other high-paid minions will be given the task of cleaning up the poor writing for the archives of the Obama Presidential Library . . . just like the ones who now have k12 history books instruct American children that the first words spoken on the moon included "humankind," not "mankind."  

    Now, if only they can confiscate all of the copies of the audio of the astronaut on the moon . . . and all of the copies of Obama's speech today. . . .

    Parent

    I did not appreciate your position as (none / 0) (#64)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:42:08 PM EST
    Grammarian in Chief...until now. Seriously, I take your point; but, ants do come to the perfect picnic.   My thinking: The WH may not have been focused on the semi-colons (a favorite punctuation device of mine) and the WH may not even have dared to perceive how the "records" would characterize the moment; rather, the WH may have lived and acted genuinely in the historical moments. That is my take, anyway. (It is so enlivening, stimulating to "feel" this time, and to appreciate all those courageous enough to participate in any and all parts of it. I also think that you are sentient enough to know that.)

    Parent
    What is the latest cheap cavil? (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:29:19 PM EST
    The quoted language above is pretty good....I like the reference to Indodensia where Obama went to school, and of course to Gandhi.

    To read Obama's Dreams of My Father is know the man can write...

    If there is a substantive criticism, let's hear it....But the speech writing????

    Parent

    B. (none / 0) (#65)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:43:40 PM EST
    Signed,

    Sentient, Yes, and Sufficiently So to Know . . . a B.

    Parent

    Evasive, but cute. (none / 0) (#70)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:50:59 PM EST
    But the writing is keyed to the natural delivery (none / 0) (#13)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:26:08 PM EST
    style of the speaker. It is not necessarily going to be good literature. The main thing is that it got the right tone and ideas across as delivered.

    But sure, it can always be improved.

    Parent

    well (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:35:40 PM EST
    I didnt hear it.  I only read it and I thought it was pretty amazing.  no idea what the quibbles are about.

    other than the usual.

    Parent

    I have not heard Obama (none / 0) (#41)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:19:49 PM EST
    naturally be so ungrammatical before.  On his own, he umms and aahs, but he constructs a sentence correctly.  So, sorry, but I do not agree that his speechwriters deliberately wrote ungrammatically for him and his "natural delivery."

    Parent
    ok (none / 0) (#42)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:22:18 PM EST
    so the punctuation was a problem for you.

    were you in any way moved by what he actually said.

    Parent

    Well, if a president is going (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by brodie on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:32:41 PM EST
    to split an infinitive and end sentences with prepositions, does anything else really matter?

    Seriously, I must have missed the ungrammatical part.  

    Events happening very quickly today.  People taking to the streets, dictatorships being overthrown, and presidents taking liberties with proper grammar.  

     

    Parent

    is (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:35:52 PM EST
    nothing sacred?

    Parent
    No. Punctuation and grammar (none / 0) (#45)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:24:34 PM EST
    are not the same.  I didn't even spot punctuation problems, although I am sure that they are there, when I could not get past the bad grammar even from the first sentence.

    But gosh, good for you for joining in the concern for more problems for the president from his speechwriters.  Thanks.

    Parent

    in this case (none / 0) (#49)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:27:27 PM EST
    it might be a good idea to actually listen to what he said.

    just sayin

    Parent

    Again, I did. It will be a great day (none / 0) (#53)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:29:10 PM EST
    when you actually read what is written.

    Parent
    Guess you were not in any way (none / 0) (#51)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:28:39 PM EST
    able to read what I wrote, that I was glad I got to see and hear the speech given.  You are capable of extrapolating, perhaps, even when praise is not in fanboy gush?

    Parent
    I know. I did speechwriting (none / 0) (#43)
    by Towanda on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:22:54 PM EST
    and I would have lost my job for scripting my boss to speak so ungrammatically.  But then, we were in a business in which he was expected to speak like an educated person.  Apparently, similar standards no longer apply to the presidency, since Bush -- but I had hoped that Obama, who is so intelligent and educated, might restore us to the elegance in speech of some who went before him.

    Parent
    Cover (none / 0) (#77)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:57:08 PM EST
    What did you think of the substance of the President's speech?  The reason that I sak is that your comments have been interesting enough so that I respect your opinion about substance. Just a note: Sometimes when people cannot acknowledge that the substance was more than ok, such people might say "...but what about (grammar?)

    Parent
    Yoiks! I forgot the ultimate paren. (none / 0) (#78)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:58:12 PM EST
    ya think? (none / 0) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:58:41 PM EST
    I may (none / 0) (#114)
    by lentinel on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:49:01 PM EST
    be naive - but can't this guy speak for himself?
    Is all he can do "deliver" what has been written for him?
    Pathetic.


    Parent
    really (none / 0) (#115)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:49:49 PM EST
    what president has ever used a speech writer.

    I mean really.


    Parent

    And? (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by lentinel on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:52:46 PM EST
    This guy was supposed to be different.

    As I have said, listen to Malcolm X sometime.

    There is a leader.

    The rest are sorry politicians, and I have deep contempt for them because so many have placed their hopes and dreams in them - and all they can do is read what is placed in front of them.

    Parent

    maybe Im wrong (none / 0) (#117)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:53:58 PM EST
    but I dont think that was the "different" most people voted for.

    Parent
    Give it a break, lentinel (none / 0) (#125)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:18:53 PM EST
    Each of us has had the experience of someone we don't like doing well. When we grow up, we get that we are supposed to be happy for them or not say anything. Obviously, I'm not a candidate for fraternity nor sorority here, so it is easier for me to cut to the quick:  This isn't a competition, this isn't about who might have been better...this is about Egypt. The President recognized that. At this point, why don't you? Finally: It is wise sometimes to hold back on the vituperation when the one we don't like is universally seen as doing well; in other words, learn when to play your cards.

    Parent
    Ugh. (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by lentinel on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:40:51 PM EST
    This is not a card game.

    I am expressing an opinion about the revolution in Egypt and the waffling nature of the American reaction to it.

    My opinion is different than yours.

    Parent

    No, it is most definitely not a card game (none / 0) (#143)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:51:53 PM EST
    Nor is it a game of political ideology. President Obama did quite well, acted quite astutely, displayed ultimate diplomacy, and was there using great patience and tact in the unfolding developments. A lot of us see that. Yes, we do differ.

    Parent
    Please.. (none / 0) (#159)
    by lentinel on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 06:49:44 AM EST
    Yeah.
    He did quite well.
    Was astute.
    The ultimate in diplomacy.
    Very patient and tactful.

    LOL

    Parent

    Considering that the word out on (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 09:56:06 AM EST
    the media street was that the WH was scrambling for most of those 18 days the people of Egypt were protesting - in large part because they apparently did not have even the first clue that this was brewing - I suppose all we can do is chuckle - if not guffaw - when people assess Obama's performance as "astute," "the ultimate in diplomacy," and "patient and tactful."

    I mean, that's Booman-level delusion, as far as I'm concerned.

    The WH started off in support of Mubarak - "he should stay" - reinforced that by sending uber-lobbyist-for-the-Egyptian-government Frank Wisner, even if they did have to drop him like a hot potato after his comments, and got behind torturer-in-chief and rendition expert Suleiman to handle the transition.

    Yes, very astute, highly diplomatic and oh-so-patient.

    Please.

    And then we were treated to a lecture on what a democracy looks like from the man who hasn't paid more than lip service to the one he's in charge of for the two years he's been in charge.

    The only thing I can give him - or whoever wrote yesterday's mini-speech - credit for was having the decency and common sense to allow the moment of Mubarak's resignation to be about the Egyptians for a change.

    Parent

    its true (none / 0) (#163)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 10:05:15 AM EST
    god, if only you had been in charge with your sweeping grasp of the nuances of mid east policy and politics to lead us to the promised land.  egypt would already be enjoying a parliamentary system.

    do you seriously think anyone reading this sees it for anything other than what it is?

    Parent

    I'm sure Towanda's "actual commenters" (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Raskolnikov on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 10:31:09 AM EST
    don't see it that way Cap.  Doncha know that all you do is tweet and bleat?

    Parent
    yeah (none / 0) (#167)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 11:20:27 AM EST
    I never quite got the idea that a statement is less lame because it is wrapped in several stilted rambling dissembling paragraphs.

    Parent
    I have never presumed to know (none / 0) (#175)
    by Anne on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 04:03:10 PM EST
    the nuances of Middle East policy, Capt; all I can do is keep my eyes and ears open and try as best I can to figure out what's going on.

    If you have some insight that counters what the conventional wisdom is - that the administration was blind-sided by the events is Egypt - by all means, fill us in.

    If you have some information that counters that the administration was playing from behind, we'd all like to hear it.

    If you can offer some wisdom about why we sent uber-Egypt lobbyist Frank Wisner to Egypt, we're all waiting.

    If you have something no one else has offered as to why we've gotten behind Omar Suleiman, the CIA's point man on rendition, who apparently is hands-on torturer, I'm happy to hear what that is.

    It wasn't too long ago - pre-Egypt - that you had pretty much washed your hands of Obama - you were "done" - ready to admit that what others had been saying about him al along was right.  

    Please enlighten us as to what has changed.

    I have no control over how people read what I write, and I don't write what I do for any other reason than to express what I think, what I see, and what it means to me.

    People can accoept it or reject it; that's out of my control, too.

    I guess you're back on the Obama bandwagon, which is your choice; but just because you have doesn't change anything - other than you're back to insulting people for having opinions that differ from yours.

    Parent

    What about (none / 0) (#87)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:05:25 PM EST
    U.S. Civil Rights movement -- or is that too reminiscent of the fights of the 1960s we must get beyond?

    Parent
    I was (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by lentinel on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:45:51 PM EST
    thinking the same thing.

    The last time we had leadership that sprung from the people was in the '60s. My hero was Malcolm X. Still is.
    But I also love and admire Martin Luther King. I think he was relatively naive compared to Malcolm, but I loved him - and I believe he and Malcolm came to understand and support one another.

    But the simple fact is that in this country leaders who challenged entrenched power got themselves killed. That includes Bobby Kennedy, Martin, Malcolm and Medgar Evers.

    Another simple fact is that the war in Vietnam was finally brought to a conclusion because the people wouldn't stop causing trouble for the government. So it finally pulled out.

    That's what we will have to do with respect to the war in Afghanistan. The press ignores it. Veterans are coming back to joblessness and homelessness. They are also coming back to inadequate medical care. Some are not coming back at all. Others are committing suicide.

    The expense in money is over two billion dollars a week - while Obama & Co. are talking about cutting the budget for heating for the poor during the winter months.

    We need to remember the '60s and be inspired by its most dynamic figures. Some of them were the greatest Americans of the century.

    Parent

    I have (none / 0) (#138)
    by lentinel on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:28:52 PM EST
    to disagree with you on some of your points.

    I don't believe that the reason the Afghanistan war is not getting the attention from the American people is the lack of a draft.
    The draft cut across some lines - but mostly drew mostly from people who couldn't afford to get out of it. College deferments and other maneuvers such as used by the likes of Cheney and Bush - and Clinton for that matter.

    The Vietnam war was also pretty much ignored by the press until a few reporters broke stories that grabbed the attention of the rest of the media and the public. The massacre at  Mei Lei. The burning of huts by American soldiers documented by Morley Safer. The shooting of civilians. Walter Cronkite began a nightly segment.

    Right now, the media is more controlled. It is pretty apparent to me that advertisers - and the governmental agencies that they pander to - decide what stories will be covered. The war is not one of them. Obama never speaks about it.

    The only difference with the draft is that even more young Americans were killed by the old bastards who ran things in Washington. Over fifty thousand. But the selection of these people was anything but democratic.  The war raged on for 10 years.

    As to your point about our seeking out leaders - getting off our asses as you put it - does not seem right to me. Leaders emerge.
    They are sought out by current events. They respond to conditions. They don't need a committee to go to them and persuade them to enter the fray. They can't help themselves. Their commitment is natural. That is why it is so powerful. Conversely, those who are sought out - like Obama for example - always prove themselves to be worthless to everyone except the few who sought them out. Their commitment to the betterment of people is not organic. It is manufactured.

    I also think that black Americans are as lethargic as white Americans. Everyone is downtrodden and hopeless. The last election offered some the glimmer of hope - but that has been rapidly extinguished.

    I also would not limit the concept of politics as entertainment to obvious fools like Palin. Bush and Obama are little more than entertainers. Good for fundraisers and schmoozing the press.
    They love it. Good joke tellers. That's their qualification.
    Or good at presiding at funerals.

    Parent

    What name would you put forth for President? (none / 0) (#142)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:47:05 PM EST
    Unlikely that our people will (none / 0) (#144)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:55:05 PM EST
    demonstrate in massive numbers against the Afghan war; what turned the American public against the Vietnam War was the draft and sending of chipping away at student deferments so sons of middle class families were being sent to war.

    Parent
    The lottery (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by cal1942 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 10:11:06 PM EST
    The draft criteria used during most of the war in Vietnam contained deferments for students.  The lottery changed all that.  The lottery meant college students were not necessarily exempt and so middle and upper middle class kids were on the spot.  That's when the tide of public support turned.

    Parent
    Pardon my repetition of my comment (none / 0) (#7)
    by christinep on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:10:16 PM EST
    on the thread below. There and now: The speech' sentiments connect with the higher aspirations and the best of America...Ghandi-esque & Mandela-esque in reflection of the full tone of today.

    Parent
    It really does (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:18:20 PM EST
    And I know it ignores the fact that in practice we let our own self-interest dictate how much freedom we push for in the rest of the world. But I'm glad we still stand behind the people that eventually grab it for themselves, under this president anyway.

    Parent
    I (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by lentinel on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:42:32 PM EST
    don't think so.

    Obama waffled from day to day. He first supported Mubarak (aka "stability") urging him to stay in office until the next election.

    Only after it became truly obvious that the protesters were not giving up, and it also became manifestly clear that they were aware and resentful of America's (Obama's) position, did Obama shift over to give a belated endorsement of the Egyptian people.

    Obviously, in addition to the fact that the US is used to supporting unpopular dictators, Obama became aware (hopefully) that massive protests can cause real change. The kind of change many thought they were voting for when they pulled the lever for this milquetoast.

    Maybe if we take to the streets, or had a decent leader, we could end the wars and divert this now unholy energy to rebuilding our country and helping our people.

    Parent

    jeeez (none / 0) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:46:37 PM EST
    you know what.
    everything is not about US.

    it might be healthy to try to broaden your focus.

    Parent

    Louise... (5.00 / 0) (#105)
    by lentinel on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:36:41 PM EST
    Of course it isn't about us.

    That is my point.

    It is about democracy and freedom.

    Where WE come in is that historically we support dictatorships and undermine democracy - and it comes back to bite us. And then we act bewildered.

    Where WE come in also is our choice of leadership.
    These people represent US.
    And it is really pathetic.

    Parent

    pathetic yes (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:44:19 PM EST
    I wasnt (none / 0) (#166)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 11:17:31 AM EST
    actually agreeing with you

    Parent
    its (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:11:57 PM EST
    clearly what he does best.

    Parent
    HA (none / 0) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:05:20 PM EST
    Gibbs question:

    were you more surprised today or yesterday?

    ouch

    LOL - I think Gibbs is pretty surprised (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:10:04 PM EST
    EVERY day.

    Parent
    wont (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:30:04 PM EST
    miss him

    Parent
    Will Murbarak be on Forbes Top Position (none / 0) (#12)
    by Saul on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:23:38 PM EST
    as the #1 billionaire.  Watching TV they say he is worth over 70 billion.

    You wonder what the heck a guy this old with that type of wealth wanted to stay as president of Egypt
    Talk about greed.   I would had left a long time ago.

    Depends upon (none / 0) (#14)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:27:14 PM EST
    if Mubarak can access that money.  A lot of it's in Switzerland, and the Swiss have just frozen his accounts.

    Parent
    not any more (none / 0) (#15)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:28:21 PM EST
    btw (none / 0) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:30:08 PM EST
    they are not only doing it but urging anyone else with funds to also do it.

    Parent
    I think I heard this a.m. (none / 0) (#91)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:09:57 PM EST
    that one of the reasons Mubarak did not want to step down is that in doing so he loses immunity from suit.  Anyone know about this?

    Parent
    I also (none / 0) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:10:52 PM EST
    heard this.  as long as he was official he was golden.

    Parent
    If he had done this a year ago on his own volition (none / 0) (#16)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:28:27 PM EST
    he would have been given a lot of credit. They always stay just a little too long. I don't know why either.

    Parent
    if he had left a week (none / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:30:41 PM EST
    ago he would have.

    Parent
    Even then, yes (none / 0) (#21)
    by ruffian on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:32:40 PM EST
    Must be quite an ego that can't see when the party is over.

    Parent
    as to why (none / 0) (#20)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:32:21 PM EST
    that an easy one. power. once given it is almost never given up voluntarily.

    Parent
    on a different subject (none / 0) (#22)
    by desmoinesdem on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:34:17 PM EST
    Iowa State Representative Clel Baudler is on the national NRA board and a super-huge fan of second-amendment rights. Not so supportive of privacy rights, though:

    Iowans -- even children -- arrested on felony charges would be required to submit DNA samples under a fast-moving legislative proposal that has bipartisan support.

    Advocates say the process would better protect the public by allowing authorities to quickly link suspects with other cases nationwide.

    But opposition is mounting.

    Some civil rights groups said the bill would violate privacy and unofficially presume guilt, allowing investigators to conduct nation-wide DNA searches long before an accused person goes to trial.

    The American Civil Liberties Union is already challenging a similar California law, arguing that the government shouldn't be able to take the genetic blueprint of someone who hasn't been convicted.

    "We are in America, where you are innocent until proven guilty," said Stephanie Fawkes-Lee, a lobbyist for the Iowa Reform Consortium, which represents more than a dozen groups interested in social justice. "Unless someone is convicted of a crime, their DNA should not be put into a database."

    Iowa already enters the DNA of convicted felons into a nationwide database. The bill would upload the samples upon arrest, potentially screening thousands more suspects each year for their potential involvement in other crimes.




    Hey Baudler.... (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 03:54:10 PM EST
    keep your greasy government hands off our DNA!

    Upon conviction is bad enough...arrest?  Thats just insane.

    Parent

    It never ceases (none / 0) (#75)
    by Zorba on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:55:45 PM EST
    to amaze (and sadden) me how so many of our elected officials are so gung-ho on the Second Amendment (almost to the point of obsession), but are perfectly happy to ignore most of the rest of the Bill of Rights.  :-(

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:12:35 PM EST
    was just watching Al Jazzera and it occurred to me how absolutely gut wrenchingly terrifying it must be for the average FOX viewer to see ALLLLL those happy dancing partying arabs.  

    as opposed to the way they would prefer to see them which is cowed bowed and beaten.

    OMG Obama is freeing "his people".  stock up on guns, bibles and canned food.

    it brought a smile.

    Kinda awkward (none / 0) (#37)
    by brodie on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:14:05 PM EST
    moment on Msnbc as Chris "I forgot he was black for an hour" Matthews, speaking with AA reporter in Cairo Ron Allen, about how the Egyptian young people have had their hopes stifled by the Mubarak regime:  "It's like the United Negro College Fund motto, 'A mind is a terrible thing to waste'."

    Tom Tomorrow: (none / 0) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:25:15 PM EST
    "Beck: President Obama looked happy b/c communist/muslim revolution successful in Egypt."

    He is by the overwhelming (none / 0) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:04:37 PM EST
    feeling of a growing evil.  Alas, he forgot to say axis :)  I wish it would knock him out.

    Somehow Ahmadinejad has said something that has frightened Glenn about how we are about to see an Islamic Middle East where there is no room for the West or the Jew, even though Ahmadinejad couldn't allow Iran to see what happened in Egypt.

    Parent

    aparrently Becks show (none / 0) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:32:29 PM EST
    is classic today.  so jealous others are able to see it as it happens.

    Ya made me turn it on... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:46:58 PM EST
    I catch him mid-sentence "...destabilized the Middle East."  Cut to our sponsors.

    When did "stability" become the be all end all?

    Lady Liberty is messy, unpredictable, dangerous...thought we knew this, and dare I say, embraced the lovely lady anyway...cuz her sister, Lady Tyranny, stable as she may be, is a cold cruel heartless one.

    Parent

    so far I have heard (none / 0) (#68)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:49:58 PM EST
    "We have an Islamic school in Virginia."

    "Spain, France, Germany, Italy, Greece: You're next. Look out!"

    Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs: "The Red-Green Alliance".

    "Leftists worldwide are encouraged by what they are seeing in Egypt."

    Parent

    Really digging for sh*t... (none / 0) (#73)
    by kdog on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:54:17 PM EST
    cuz the news is so good, at least for today.

    Now some former prosecutor, current bedwetter, warning of global jihad.

    Parent

    We need a DIAPERS FOR GLEN campaign (5.00 / 0) (#107)
    by Dadler on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:40:11 PM EST
    Just get people to send them en masse to him.  

    Parent
    Bill Kristol--will he continue to (none / 0) (#110)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:45:44 PM EST
    criticize Beck?  I just love it when two Foxers go at it....

    Parent
    is there any more obvious evidence (5.00 / 0) (#113)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:47:25 PM EST
    that the man is having a televised breakdown than that is is embarrassing Bill freakin Kristol?

    who thouht THAT was even possible

    Parent

    Persia aligned with the Nazis (none / 0) (#121)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:06:46 PM EST
    Fascism understands fascism...every Jew is going to be killed now :)  The whole world says that multiculturalism has failed and all we have done is feed extremism.

    Parent
    And he claims that Syria is in chaos (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:09:27 PM EST
    I have heard that Syria is having problems.  But he says that Syria is already aligned with Iran now.  Since when?  I see that Glenn has misplaced his Sunni vs. Shia handbook again.

    Parent
    Either too complicated for Glenn (none / 0) (#156)
    by cal1942 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 10:26:27 PM EST
    and/or it might puzzle his followers.  Gotta keep those followers.  

    It's really quite complicated for the rest of the media as well.


    Parent

    How (none / 0) (#126)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:19:26 PM EST
    can you even watch ever? Glenn Beck creeps me out though if don't watch it he can get you easily caught up in the fear thing he's always pushing.

    Parent
    It's unnerving (none / 0) (#134)
    by Raskolnikov on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:18:02 PM EST
    to watch him, certainly.  I always think its going to be a good idea when I see it on, but I just get slightly sick listening to it.  It's so awkward, so preachy, so batsh!t insane!  Watching that shows makes me wish that the people that watch it religiously don't vote, but I'm sure they do in droves.

    Parent
    saw this (none / 0) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:57:00 PM EST
    I predict you are going to see this "solution" popping up more and more.

    I am (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:09:41 PM EST
    beginning to hate you

    Parent
    what (none / 0) (#92)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:10:02 PM EST
    perfect weather is not enough

    Parent
    Since Hawaii (none / 0) (#153)
    by cal1942 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 09:54:54 PM EST
    send Democrats to Washington and votes for the Democratic candidate for President.  In other words a blue state; I have to say that having a generally more community oriented political party in control certainly helps.

    Parent
    As in the case of Obama (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 04:59:29 PM EST
    The Left now has what they wanted. Mubarak gone NOW.

    I hope I am wrong but this will probably be a case of not liking what you get.

    The Muslim Brotherhood is the only organized group besides the Army.

    you are wrong Jim so you can relax (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:03:22 PM EST
    you do know that the reason the MB is the only organized party other than the official one because the martial law that was in force made them illegal.

    anyone who tried to form one was jailed and tortured.  

    Parent

    "You are wrong" How can you guys be so (none / 0) (#97)
    by tigercourse on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:14:17 PM EST
    absolutely sure? If you've got a time machine, what are the upcoming Power Ball numbers?

    Parent
    well (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:16:45 PM EST
    that was an easy one.  Jim is always wrong.  he is as dependable as the freaking farmers almanac.

    Parent
    I remember Iran (2.00 / 1) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:16:08 PM EST
    Very very similar.

    Look how that worked out,

    Parent

    Yes, the Shah is gone (2.00 / 1) (#145)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 08:01:40 PM EST
    and we can thank Carter for that.

    And the birth of state sponsored terrorism which has led us to here.

    And certainly the Shah's replacement has been no better inside Iran, and much worse outside.

    Parent

    PPJ, go look up how Iran (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Harry Saxon on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 08:55:50 PM EST
    got involved in having a nuclear program in the first place.

    And, "He may be a b*stard, but he's OUR b*stard" excuse for the Shah is discredited, and blaming Carter is simplistic as well as ignoring the history behind the Iranian Revolution pre-President Carter in the first place.

    Parent

    I repeat (none / 0) (#161)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 09:35:23 AM EST
    And certainly the Shah's replacement has been no better inside Iran, and much worse outside.


    Parent
    You can repeat yourself (none / 0) (#164)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 10:30:16 AM EST
    a thousand times, and being incorrect the 999th time as you were at the beginning isn't a virtue, FWIW.

    Parent
    I never knew (none / 0) (#172)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 12:44:06 PM EST
    the Shah to threaten Israel, attack our Embassy and support terrorism.

    Parent
    No, the Shah only terrorized (none / 0) (#181)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 07:20:49 PM EST
    his own people.

    Parent
    No one ever said the Shah was (none / 0) (#183)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 08:26:00 AM EST
    nice.

    But Iran was more westernized during his reign and we had more influence with him than with the terrorists so we might have been able to slowly bring true democracy to Iran.

    That possibility was lost when Carter let him be overthrown.

    And then there is the small matter of Iran vowing to destroy Israel and attacking the US at every opportunity.

    Parent

    Someone who tortures his own (none / 0) (#186)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 10:01:51 AM EST
    subjects is more than "not nice",  PPJ.

    But Iran was more westernized during his reign and we had more influence with him than with the terrorists so we might have been able to slowly bring true democracy to Iran.

    Yes, that's an interesting project, taking an absolute monarchy that terrorizes and tortures its' subject and turning it into a shiny new democracy.

    This is your brain on Fox News, folks.

    Any questions?

    Parent

    Project? (none / 0) (#187)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 12:03:59 PM EST
    Well, it was possible under the Shah because we had people there and influence.

    That went out of Iran when the Shah left.

    It can be said of Egypt that we had people there and influence yet we didn't succeed in transforming Egypt and now will pay the price.

    Perhaps our foreign policy should be more Roman Peace and less "Do your own thing."

    Parent

    Re: Possible (none / 0) (#188)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 12:25:18 PM EST

    Well, it was possible under the Shah because we had people there and influence.

    "People and influence" like we used to overthrow the Prime Minister in 1954?

    Keep digging, PPJ, you'll hit paydirt sooner or later.  :-)

    Parent

    It would have been worse (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:44:28 PM EST
    for the U.S. to keep Mubarak in power.....That would really fan the al Qaeda's recruitment efforts....

    By being on the side--if somewhat unobstrusively in the beginning--of democracy was in the U.S.'s best interests--and get this, it was the right thing to do.

    Parent

    it was the right thing to do. (none / 0) (#112)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:45:52 PM EST
    details details details

    Parent
    I don't think we have to do anything (none / 0) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:23:02 PM EST
    to fan al Qaeda's efforts on recruiting.

    I do think they will be encouraged as the Muslim Brotherhood slowly takes control of Egypt.

    Parent

    Why (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 06:28:40 PM EST
    would AQ be encouraged with the Muslim brotherhood? They have renounced violence not something that AQ wants to do. You apparently don't understand the difference between Fundamentalist Muslims and mainstream Muslims.

    Parent
    If you are trying to say that I do not (2.00 / 1) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 08:03:58 PM EST
    believe the Muslim Brotherhood you are correct.

    We shall see who is right.

    Parent

    I have never claimed to have the solution (2.00 / 1) (#147)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 08:08:17 PM EST
    just as I have never claimed to have the cure for cancer.

    To play "should have" it is obvious that we should have pushed Mubarak for a change years ago.

    And perhaps Obama should have waited, just as he waited for days and days and days before he spoke out on Iran.

    Parent

    When was the last time (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 05:54:10 PM EST
    you hung out in Egypt?

    Parent
    Let my people go (none / 0) (#131)
    by Saul on Fri Feb 11, 2011 at 07:06:07 PM EST
    Ironic it was a Pharaoh that held the Israelites in bondage.  Now a Pharaoh was holding his own people in bondage.  He is now gone and his people are free.  I hope so.  Don't know what Egypt will turn into.

    And the unions would have contracts (none / 0) (#176)
    by Towanda on Sat Feb 12, 2011 at 04:11:02 PM EST
    there to protect them at least for a while against the changes in law he will push through his GOP legislature, except that all of the public employee workers' unions (those who are allowed to unionize) contracts there were held up for more than a year by the previous Democratic legislature.  And then, worse, the last chance of the previous Dem-led egislature to ratify those contracts in December was screwed by two Dems who crossed over to vote with the GOP and curry favor with the governor-to-be.  Both Dems were voted out of office for it but, sure enough, one or maybe both of those alleged Dems already have landed lucrative posts with the new governor.

    We're getting a lot of information on this from friends who work there (near us on the other side of the line) and are so outraged.  One works for the state, and others do not, but they also see that this will hurt all unions and workers plus probably will cost taxpayers a fortune because it will end up in the courts.  (It turns out that's part of the reason for the budget mess there.  Every governor in recent memory there, in either party, has somehow broken the law in constant borrowing from other funds to fix the budget and lost in courts, so those bills are coming due.)

    Politics have become so corrupt now in Wisconsin that, a friend wrote, they are making our Chicago politics look clean.  We simply respond that, sure, we have corruption.  But at least Illinois puts corrupt governors in prison.

    Thread cleaned of spat (none / 0) (#189)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 12:32:21 PM EST
    between two commenters. Harry and Jim, be warned, if you keep this up you will both be banned. This is the third time in a week you have resorted to playground insults. Ignore each other or respond politely.

    Re:Roman Peace (none / 0) (#190)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Feb 13, 2011 at 12:42:29 PM EST

    But there is no nation beyond us; nothing but waves and rocks, and the still more hostile Romans, whose arrogance we cannot escape by obsequiousness and submission. These plunderers of the world, after exhausting the land by their devastations, are rifling the ocean: stimulated by avarice, if their enemy be rich; by ambition, if poor; unsatiated by the East and by the West: the only people who behold wealth and indigence with equal avidity. To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire; and where they make a desert, they call it peace.

    Tacitus, Agricola, section 30