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Guide To Sully On "Race And Intelligence"

Via John Cole, funny Gawker:

Sullivan writes: "No one is arguing that "that black people are dumber than white," just that the distribution of IQ is slightly different among different racial populations, and these differences also hold true for all broad racial groups[.]"

Translation: "No one is arguing that black people are stupider than white people, just that black people are stupider than white people in a slightly more complicated way."

Standard deviation!!!!

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    I told you Coates was too subtle! (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by lilburro on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 05:11:21 PM EST
    :P

    Wow. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 05:24:34 PM EST
    Amazing.  Really?

    Now, I think that Andrew Sullivan is pretty dumb, but who would have thought he could be that stupid?

    Teh stupid, (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 05:41:31 PM EST
    it burns.

    This Post is clearly intended for ABG (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by oculus on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 05:57:36 PM EST
    Apparently took. His marbles and went home.

    Parent
    This is what I miss when I'm busy. . . (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by andgarden on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 06:30:25 PM EST
    this is the day (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 07:07:40 PM EST
    ABG finally earned his quotation marks from BTD

    & well deserved they are

    Parent

    Missed you a lot, Andgarden. (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Peter G on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 08:15:26 PM EST
    Welcome back.

    Parent
    Why run? (none / 0) (#12)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 06:38:29 PM EST
    I think a neutral reader would read that chain and believe I was the most reasonable person in the room.

    I am pretty proud of it.

    Parent

    It would have taken a neutral reader (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Anne on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 07:41:49 PM EST
    a little more than a nanosecond to understand that you weren't even in the same room with a clue when it comes to Andrew Sullivan and his need to periodically (when he's feeling down), fan the flames of his decades-long love affair with racism and misogyny.

    You're proud of being so reasonable?  That's what you think this is about?

    Breaking news!  Angry-Uber-Liberal-Black-Guy breaks his previous record of missing the humongous, flashing-neon point.

    Parent

    The "periodically" comment (none / 0) (#35)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 10:03:14 PM EST
    is something that he used to described his own campaign before he used it to comment on her campaign......

    ......Since you make the reference--and raise the issue once again.

    You had a better case regarding the "buffet" and "claws" comments, but few really noticed or commented on those.....

    And, on the other side of the ledger, there was......plenty.

    Parent

    Not that it really matters, (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:56:31 AM EST
    because I doubt if you will choose to accept any explanation I give other than the one you have so helpfully provided - if you were actually interested, asking me to clarify might have been the way to go - but, when I typed the word "periodically," I knew someone would add the "when he's feeling down" parenthetical if I didn't, because it is a word that takes us all back to the primary wars and the huge issue that sexism and misogyny became.

    And while Sullivan wasn't the author of that famous comment, he is, in my opinion, about as glaring an example of someone with a wide misogynistic streak as one is likely to find - and somehow, when that word popped into my head, I made the decision not to find another word, or leave out the parenthetical, because it accurately brands Sullivan - specifically - for who he has long shown himself to be.

    So, it really was not meant as a stealth slam to Obama at all, even though I understand that you might have almost reflexively taken it that way; I would think that the total absence of any reference whatsoever to Obama in my comment might have allowed you to pick up on that, but I guess you saw another opportunity to brand me as an Obama-hater that you decided to seize on that and ignore everything else.

    I hope it felt good, because, really MKS, your overreaction kinda makes you look a little, well, silly, and an eensy bit clueless.

    Parent

    So, it was in reference to Obama but not really?? (none / 0) (#78)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:30:43 PM EST
    I don't buy it in the least.....

    You slam Sully as a misogynist by applying to him a phrase used by Obama?  And that is not a slam against Obama?  Nonsense.  

    "Periodically feeling down" is a famous phrase on anti-Obama blogs because of its association with Obama.  Without that association or context it is quite a neutral phrase.

    I give you the hat trick here.

      (1)  you slam Obama as a misogynist.
      (2)  you slam Sully as a misogynist by comparing him to Obama.
      (3) you get a few whacks at ABG too.

    Yes, you do hate Obama.  You have said you could not stand the sound of his voice.

    And the downrate was because of the personal insult.  You usually don't go there....

    Parent

    Oh, brother...I was obviously correct that (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:08:37 PM EST
    you weren't going to accept my explanation - you never do.

    I've stated too many times to count that I don't hate Obama - I don't know the man, other than through his performance and actions as the president.  

    I am strongly opposed to, and have serious problems with, many of his policies and actions - that's where my focus is.

    As for the voice thing...Al Gore made me snore, Bill Clinton began to sound like his own SNL impersonation, George Bush - I'm still not over "nook-you-ler."  Obama?  It's not his voice, per se, it's the sing-song-y, preacher-y delivery.  

    So sue me, okay?

    As to your numbered points, you are free to interpret as you like, but as the person who wrote both comments, I don't agree with points one and two; as to point three, ABG deserves the whacks he gets because he is disingenuous, dishonest, and when he gets caught in a trap of his own making, nearly incoherent.  He's managed to hijack the Sullivan/Bell Curve argument into one of genetics - his usual I-can't-win-the-argument-presented-so-I'll-invent-one-I-think-I-can shtick.  He doesn't agree with Sullivan on the Bell Curve, but still doesn't understand what it is.

    I really don't want to get into the whole brouhaha over Obama's original comments, or the ones that have been added to his resume, or the actions he's taken, the selling-out he's done, that have not served women well.

    I'm sorry I went there, MKS - I could have made my point without invoking the incendiary language that takes everyone back to the primaries.  

    As for Andrew Sullivan, he deserves every bit of derision and scorn for his views on women and race that get leveled at him - there's a track record there that is miles long.

    Sometimes it amazes me that you would rather focus on the chance to slam me for my alleged Obama hatred than to focus on the actual content of the comment to which I was originally replying: ABG's I'm-the-most-reasonable-person-in-the-room.


    Parent

    Because the incendiary language (none / 0) (#84)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:20:40 PM EST
    was unfairly interpreted in the first instance, and you raised it.

    As to the Bell Curve, the issue seems pretty clear, and the more interesting conversation was over IQs being improvable imo....

    As to Sully, he is an endlessly fascinating case study.....A devout Catholic who is gay....start there....

    Surprising he went back to one of his lower points with the Bell Curve.

    Parent

    And more specifically to your point (none / 0) (#86)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:27:58 PM EST
    about ABG, it seems to me the issue could be dealt with differently.....

    Parent
    Pardon? (none / 0) (#36)
    by cymro on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 10:08:22 PM EST
    Did you post this comment in the wrong thread by accident? If not, please explain what you're talking about.

    Parent
    I responded to this (none / 0) (#41)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 10:40:27 PM EST
    phrase in Anne's comment above:

    when it comes to Andrew Sullivan and his need to periodically (when he's feeling down),

    Sully did not make this "periodically" comment.  Obama did.  But Anne could not resist taking a shot at Obama based on the old Primary wars....and tying Obama here to the very unpopular Sully.

    An oblique, gratuituous yet unmistakeable (and I believe unfair) shot at Obama....Oblique enough to deflect scrutiny.

    Parent

    Not the way I read English, you didn't ... (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by cymro on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 04:48:51 AM EST
    Anne was writing about Sullivan. Just because she used the word "periodically," you infer that she was alluding to a completely different topic? Does that mean that the word "periodically" is now off limits, and can only be used as a part of this special coded MKS-speak?

    Are there other words that have been similarly co-opted into this secret language? If so, please post a list, together with their alternative meanings and associated allusions, so that I can remember when I use them to note that I intend to imply the normal meaning, and not your special one.

    Parent

    Periodically feeling down (2.00 / 2) (#67)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:36:51 AM EST
    It is the entire phrase.  Google it.

    Ask Anne what she was alluding to.

    I doubt she would say that using that phrase was anything but derisive.....that was her view when Obama used it.....

    Do you think she would use a phrase that most here find offensive just by chance?

    Parent

    Even after reading all the explanations ... (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by cymro on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:20:55 PM EST
    ... (which were posted after my comments) I still agree with Donald. To the ordinary reader, who is not parsing every sentence for code-words having special signifcance beyond their normal meaning, your original response to Anne was obscure in the extreme.

    I'm used to reading posts about topics that I'm not intimately familiar with, but at least I can usually grasp the core idea from the context. But if you're going to post obscure comments without providing ANY helpful context, then you should expect questions in response. And if you're intending a comment to be a private conversation with another poster, why not help out the rest of us by saying so?

    Parent

    Anne actually explained it more than (none / 0) (#71)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:30:04 PM EST
    a few comments before you wrote this.

    Oopsie...

    Parent

    Don't buy it (none / 0) (#75)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:07:49 PM EST
    Sorry didn't see your comment (none / 0) (#79)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:34:35 PM EST
    Your  comment confirms that you were referencing Obama--but not in a a bad way--when you made the comment.

    .

    Parent

    I really doubt anyone missed it (none / 0) (#42)
    by oculus on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 10:55:03 PM EST
    So I thought but Cymro's comment (none / 0) (#43)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 11:02:41 PM EST
    does suggest not all are so attuned.

    Clearly a comment aimed at the cognoscenti.....

    Parent

    Talk to Oculus then (none / 0) (#52)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:55:19 AM EST
    Really. (5.00 / 3) (#33)
    by lilburro on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 08:18:14 PM EST
    Let me recap some of your finer arguments:

    "I never said I knew anything about the details of the research."

    "My point depends on no knowledge of the topic or the bell curve (which I know a lot about but see little reason to brag to a bunch of anonymous people on the net)or any of the avenues you are ingrained to lead the discussion down."  [avenues being the actual topic of the book under discussion]

    "one can support the Bell Curve's concept and not be racist BUT be incredibly insensitive to the racial context surrounding the issue."

    "My job is not to read them
    My job is to let non-lawyers who research these issues for a living battle it out and then join with the scientific community after decades of research to produce a hypothesis as to the answer."

    "I was focused on science"  [except of course on the science presented in Sullivan's discussion past and present and on our discussion]

    No doubt a neutral reader would at least applaud the consistency of your incoherence.

    Parent

    I really hope this is ... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 05:43:12 PM EST
    one Bell Curve reference too far for Sully.  He really needs to be ridiculed all over the Internet and in print for this.

    He's never gotten the universal drubbing he deserves for these loony views. And it's about time.

    It's Sully's White Whale... (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Addison on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 05:45:00 PM EST
    (Distribution of perceived intention of this pun is slightly different among different literate populations, and these differences also hold true for all broad literate groups).

    Obviously, you care nothing (none / 0) (#27)
    by me only on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 07:53:12 PM EST
    for the broad illiterate group.  Classicist.

    Parent
    Illiteracy is a social construct? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Addison on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 07:55:07 PM EST
    Probably due to his interest in (none / 0) (#37)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 10:15:57 PM EST
    finding a genetic reason for being gay......

    Just taking Sully at his word, he is a conservative who loved Thatcher.....

    His support of gay rights and opposition to waterboarding, and ultimate opposition to the war in Iraq, made him interesting to Liberals.....but seem just an exception to his natural authoritarian streak.

    Parent

    I disagree with that analysis... (none / 0) (#47)
    by Addison on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:07:46 AM EST
    Eh, Sullivan seems to enjoy being a gadfly. This seems a part of that. He familiarized himself with a few graphs, got it into his head and anyone who disagreed was being willfully ignorant (and therefore vulnerable to his graphs), and decided that this would be his hobbyhorse to ride to iconoclastism. It's his battle flag of being an independent thinker which he's got to wave every once in a while.

    Parent
    But even most right wingers (none / 0) (#48)
    by MKS on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:11:44 AM EST
    had the horse sense to stay away from the Bell Curve--or at least the serious ones.

    And no one admires him for this oddity.....Of all the topics to earn one's stripes for gadflyness.

    Parent

    He, and others before him, are simply (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 06:01:12 PM EST
    repackaging persistent racist ways of trying to 'prove' with 'science' (in this version, genetics) a difference in intelligence between the races (whatever 'races' mean anymore). I recommend sending him a present -- Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man" -- so that he can read it and  stop embarrassing himself:

    The Mismeasure of Man (1981), by Stephen Jay Gould, is a history and critique of the statistical methods and cultural motivations underlying biological determinism, the belief that "the social and economic differences between human groups -- primarily races, classes, and sexes -- arise from inherited, inborn distinctions and that society, in this sense, is an accurate reflection of biology."[1] The principal theme of biological determinism, that "worth can be assigned to individuals and groups by measuring intelligence as a single quantity", is analyzed in discussions of craniometry and psychological testing, two methods used to measure and establish intelligence as a single quantity. That the methods have "two deep fallacies"; the first is "reification", which is "our tendency to convert abstract concepts into entities", such as the intelligence quotient (IQ) and the general intelligence factor (g factor), which have been the cornerstones of much research into human intelligence; the second fallacy is '"ranking", the "propensity for ordering complex variation as a gradual ascending scale."

    The revised and expanded, second edition of the Mismeasure of Man (1996) analyzes and challenges the methodological accuracy of The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life (1994), by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray, which re-presented the arguments of biological determinism, "the abstraction of intelligence as a single entity, its location within the brain, its quantification as one number for each individual, and the use of these numbers to rank people in a single series of worthiness, invariably to find that oppressed and disadvantaged groups -- races, classes, or sexes -- are innately inferior and deserve their status."[2] (See: Scientific racism)

    The response to the book (none / 0) (#40)
    by lilburro on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 10:29:39 PM EST
    is really quite interesting.  Unfortunately, people like Sullivan just want to refight the first battle over and over and over.  God forbid we learn any lessons that suggest social class and education have anything to do with a person's outcome.

    Parent
    It seems like a paradigmatic example (none / 0) (#55)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:34:41 AM EST
    of a familiar argument between biologists and social scientists (another ex being evolutionary psychology...).  

    As you say, some persist in wishing to reinvent biological determinism in all forms, rather than look at class, background, etc.

    Parent

    Is this what is known as (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Edger on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 07:38:40 PM EST
    dumb baiting?

    Sully sullied (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by koshembos on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 07:54:25 PM EST
    The music in most of the world is African American music. The three heroes of peace and justice in the 20th century are: Gandhi, Mandela and MLK; all three are black.

    Just because an ethnic group that started running with weights on their ankles didn't overcome the Brits in everything doesn't doesn't make their achievements less amazing.

    Obama can lead by example (1.00 / 4) (#13)
    by diogenes on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 06:39:27 PM EST
    President Obama was the editor of the Harvard Law Review.  Maybe if he releases his SAT scores he can show all of us that African Americans on the far end of the bell curve really do get 800's on their SAT's.

    I can scarcely recall a comment (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 06:42:01 PM EST
    more deserving of a 1.

    Parent
    no (none / 0) (#22)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 07:06:24 PM EST
    he was president of the Harvard Law Review

    that's different

    probably could have been editor if not for his SAT scores - & his IQ, of course

    /s

    Parent

    How did this become the (none / 0) (#38)
    by MKS on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 10:21:04 PM EST
    conservative talking point du jour?

    Parent
    Really? I'm only a year younger than Obama (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 11:45:38 PM EST
    and I remember exactly what my SAT score was.

    And, not that it comes up very often (though more and more often now as my kids approach SAT age) but I know that every adult contemporary of mine that I've ever been in a convo with about SAT scores remembers theirs as well.

    Sure, it doesn't mean squat now, but we all sure remember...

    Parent

    I don't remember mine either (none / 0) (#49)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:20:30 AM EST
    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:02:24 AM EST
    Two numbers I don't think I'll ever forget are my SAT score and my graduating GPA. Oh yeah, I remember my GMAT score also...

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#66)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:36:39 AM EST
    Seriously impressed.  It took me years to learn my SSN.  Numbers are just not something I remember.

    Parent
    not in my world, lol (none / 0) (#88)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:40:21 PM EST
    I know I'm laughing (none / 0) (#89)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:51:20 PM EST
    but it's a rueful laugh.  "We" really don't remember numbers.  Having phones that store phone numbers was a godsend for us.  If "we" (me and my family members) had better number awareness we would doubtless be better at managing our finances.

    Your memory of those numbers may be common in your world.  I assure you it is quite uncommon in mine.  Maybe some of the musicians would remember SAT scores (music/math connection) because, on the upside, artists abound in my family.  On the downside, so do alcoholics.  

    Parent

    "My world" mainly consists (none / 0) (#91)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:02:38 PM EST
    of the parents of the kids my kids hang out with.

    Surely not a conclusive sample, but fairly diverse group nonetheless...

    Parent

    That's pretty much (none / 0) (#92)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:07:29 PM EST
    what I would have thought.  Kind of the same as mine.  Except mostly I'm related to them.  

    Maybe not so diverse, but a pretty large group for a' that.  I expect the kids would know.  My contemporaries not so much.

    Parent

    LOL (none / 0) (#68)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:42:19 AM EST
    I wonder how my inability to remember numbers factors in on the intelligence "scale"....

    Parent
    Exactly my thought line... (none / 0) (#77)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:10:50 PM EST
    can we even define intelligence to where it can be measured?

    I'm confident IQ ain't it.

    Parent

    The measure of the man (or woman) (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 03:01:57 PM EST
    In our neighborhood, when I was about 11 or 12, there was a young man who had moved in down the street from us. We all heard about his degrees & how smart he was supposed to be.  Well....

    After a bit, it turned out he related to math, but little else. As my Dad said: "For a smart man, he sure is dumb."  (I've remembered that sentiment in several similar instances.)

    Parent

    In my youth (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by sj on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 03:28:59 PM EST
    (said the sage)* I read Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" which sparked a very fun late night discussion about "stupids" and "not-stupids".  And the subsets of stupid not-stupids, and not-stupid stupids.  

    It actually makes sense if you ponder it.  Especially if said pondering is accompanied by cheap wine.
    -----
    * Not relevant to my point (such as it is), but I'm tired and a little slap-happy.

    Parent

    If IQ doesn't matter... (none / 0) (#110)
    by diogenes on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 07:10:33 PM EST
    If IQ and SAT scores don't matter, then why doesn't everyone say the following:  "Sure, the average IQ and bell curves of different races are different, but IQ doesn't matter anyway."

    Parent
    I think I'm in the minority... (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 08:33:43 AM EST
    others seem to put stock in IQ...I'm leaning towards an abstract like "intelligence" being impossible to measure.

    I suppose brain function could be measured, synapse fires...but intelligence?  

    Parent

    Sounds reasonable, kdog. (none / 0) (#114)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 12:50:06 PM EST
    I think our IQ test is mainly designed to predict success our schools, and it has been shown to have a slight positive correlation.

    Because it doesn't actually measure intelligence the name of the test is certainly misleading, some would say by design, but I'd imagine there is no chance of changing the name to something more realistic, so watcha gonna do?

    Seems like we humans do like comparing ourselves to others in all sorts of ways. I think the IQ test is just one more of those ways.

    I remember a kid in my HS was tested at some crazy high IQ, like 145 or something, well into what has traditionally been labeled the "genius" range. (Actually, as I write this, afaik, he's the only person I know who's taken the IQ test.)

    Anyway, he got all A's in HS and was our valedictorian, and I expected him to ultimately cure cancer or head up NASA or something, but he ended up getting a grad degree in English and has made his living as writer ever since.

    Parent

    Nail on the head bro... (none / 0) (#115)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 01:19:32 PM EST
    right there...

    Seems like we humans do like comparing ourselves to others in all sorts of ways. I think the IQ test is just one more of those ways.

    It is no measure of intelligence, just a way to compare humans ability to answer a very limited set of questions correctly.

    Parent

    Is he a good writer? (none / 0) (#116)
    by sj on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 02:25:23 PM EST
    He writes about food, mainly, (none / 0) (#117)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 02:57:13 PM EST
    and uses more commas, even, than I do.

    Sure, I suppose he is good, his writing makes me hungry.

    He used to be a writing prof at UCSB, I believe.

    Parent

    now there... (none / 0) (#120)
    by sj on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 03:06:13 PM EST
    ... is a job.
    He writes about food, mainly


    Parent
    Yep, not a bad gig at all... (none / 0) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 03:27:44 PM EST
    Diogenes shows that he (none / 0) (#53)
    by observed on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 03:54:24 AM EST
    still can fingerpaint with feces.
    He was a precocious 8 year old conservative.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 05:39:31 PM EST
    for reminding me how much I dislike Sully but not only do I dislike him for his rampant sexism and racism, I can now dislike him because he's patently stupid.

    THere's stupid, and then (none / 0) (#111)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 12:24:01 AM EST
    there's ignorance.  We don't even know how stupid or not stupid Perry is because he's so spectacularly ignorant, it's impossible to sort out.

    Sullivan ain't ignorant.  He's clearly just stupid (in the sense of being utterly unable to think coherently about much of anything)

    Parent

    Plus: Andrew Sullivan is (none / 0) (#119)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 03:04:41 PM EST
    one of the most pompous personages ever to be witnessed on TV. That says a lot...or, a little.

    Parent
    I am here (none / 0) (#11)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 06:36:15 PM EST
    I dig the joke by Gawker.

    In reading about this stuff today, I think the debate I thought I was having was over a point Chomsky raised 30+ years ago:

    "[Moreover], the question of the relation, if any, between race and intelligence has very little scientific importance (as it has no social importance, except under the assumptions of a racist society) ... As to social importance, a correlation between race and mean I.Q. (were this shown to exist) entails no social consequences except in a racist society in which each individual is assigned to a racial category and dealt with not as an individual in his own right, but as a representative of this category ... In a non-racist society, the category of race would be of no greater significance [than height]. The mean I.Q. of individuals of a certain racial background is irrelevant to the situation of a particular individual, who is what he is. Recognizing this perfectly obvious fact, we are left with little, if any, plausible justification for an interest in the relation between mean I.Q. and race, apart from the `justification' provided by the existence of racial discrimination."

    That's really the interesting question for me. All of the back and forth today seemed to be an attempt to convince me (and the reader) that the Bell Curve was wrong, which was odd to me because I didn't start the day believing it was right.  I believed it was wrong this AM and still believe that.

    I also started the day open to the possibility that there could be a genetic/IQ link and wondering if it was best for us to find the truth.

    Sullivan is arguing that the scientific community has abandoned the research because of the PC police. Others argue that it was abandoned because no one cares about the topic. These both strike me as wrong. I think the answer is that the research is being done in a way that is more directly associated with other issues. Prenatal research, stem cell research, cloning, sociological modeling advances and a host of other tangentially related matters receiving all kinds of attention right now.  My point from the start wasn't about the Bell Curve or those ripping it apart.  That's all temporary relatively speaking.  The interesting point for me will be what happens when the answer comes to us from one of these other sources.  

    I think my kids will live in a world where the answer is available. Less than a hundred years.

    That's far more interesting than whether a group of racist manipulated a bunch of numbers to make their points, which is what I was apparently defending even though I never said anything to that effect.


    I understand that we don't know (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by ruffian on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 06:48:19 PM EST
    what we don't know.

    My objection was more to your admiration of Sullivan in general...I think that was what lit the fuse.

    Parent

    And this part... (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 06:48:41 PM EST
    Sullivan is arguing that the scientific community has abandoned the research because of the PC police.

    is one of the many examples of how disingenuous and dangerous Sullivan is. It is demonstrably false that the scientific community has abandoned the research because of the 'PC police'. It has abandoned it because it is unscientific, untestable, hogwash. And it has done so numerous times, even thought the notion keeps cropping up in new manifestations (this time, with genetics; in previous decades, with craniometry or other mechanisms).

    Sullivan, and others like him, trot out the 'PC police" when they wish to promote or perpetuate racist or sexist agendas. It's an obvious red flag.  Just as when he and others say the 'PC police' misconstrued Summers' sexist agenda in resurrecting that old 'women are inherently inferior to men in math' trope.

    Parent

    Again (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by lilburro on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 08:02:49 PM EST
    I also started the day open to the possibility that there could be a genetic/IQ link and wondering if it was best for us to find the truth.

    Sullivan is arguing that the scientific community has abandoned the research because of the PC police.

    If you started your day that way it had nothing to do with the post you read, which was not about genetics generally, but about racial differences in intelligence as "demonstrated" through social, not neurological, science.  Sullivan is not saying "I hope we invest a lot of money in genetic research in intelligence" he's saying "I hope we invest a lot of money in research into racial intelligence."  It's like me saying, "Michele Bachmann makes a poor point about gays deserving to burn in hell, BUT there may be higher substance abuse rates in the gay community."  

    Part of the reason the Bell Curve is discredited is because of how quickly a group of social scientists concluded that poor performance could be based on genetics.  If you're going to go there, you should have reams and reams of data to back that up.  And of course they didn't.

    At this point, I should probably just co-sign Donald's comment and walk away.

    Parent

    I don't think your kids will live (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 07:43:13 AM EST
    in a world where the answer is available, and it disgusts me that you long for one.

    Hypothyroidism, a very common medical condition in women, can lead to a lowered intelligence in a child and has nothing to do with that child's genetics.  It is currently very under diagnosed and treated.

    Parent

    I long for (none / 0) (#58)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:21:34 AM EST
    us to understand what makes people smart.  The fact that we'll get an answer is a side effect.

    This is silly.  I am a reasonable person and understand all of the ways in which this information could be used to put down one race or another. That's why my question throughout, and the only real question of interest, is whether we should know and how will we handle the information. Your disgust is completely misplaced if you understand what I am actually saying. As if I am excited about the prospect of finding information that says blacks are inferior or something.

    Anyway, as for Sullivan, Coates ends his last post on the issue the way I hoped he would:

    "I respect Andrew as I did before. His influence on me remains. This is not polite-speak ventured for his benefit, but a message for all of the black readers who've reached out to me in anger, citing this as their reason for avoiding his work. I urge you to reconsider."

    That's pretty much where I am.  I disagree with him on the Bell Curve but think his blog is a must read and respect his ability to engage critics and others directly immensely.  We do not have enough voices who straddle the liberal/conservative line and his role in filling that vacuum is extremely valuable.

    The fact that I may be the only TL commenter on the planet who shares that view changes nothing for me.  I think it's pretty clear and was glad to see that Coates hate Sully's position on the Bell Curve but still appreciates Sully's value.

    Parent

    Please define your understanding of the word (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:30:14 AM EST
    Smart.  Then perhaps I can understand where in the heck you are coming from.

    Parent
    I would define it as "High intelligence" (none / 0) (#60)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:52:15 AM EST
    But that is irrelevant to what I am saying. We could break it down further and say that we might be able to isolate the gene that gives some people advantages in understanding spatial relationships, which appears to be an important part of math comprehension.  To avoid  discussion of "what is intelligence", please assume that intelligence means "ability to understand spatial relationships" and we can move on without being bogged down on an ancillary point.

    This is a good proxy because there is a genetic disorder called Williams Syndrome that results from some missing/faulty genes which causes spatial recognition problems. The theory goes that if the genetic issue creates spatial recognition issues, some genes may give certain people advantages in that area.

    Link

    This also serves as an example of why genetic research will lead us to the answer inevitably.  People looking to isolate genes responsible for spatial recognition to eliminate diseases like this will inevitably tell us a lot about the questions we are discussing.

    Parent

    Why are you so hung up on this gene thing? (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:54:55 AM EST
    You just can't seem to get away from it.  As far as learning goes, I've been exposed to too much very current information because of my husband's work.  He was just honored as being the top instructor in the entire Army for warrant officers too.

    A few years ago when he began teaching I related to him a class that I had taken in NLP.  He started there and now my house is cluttered with books about how the brain works.  It involves neuropathways, not genes.  And neuropathways are shaped by environment as well as other things.

    Our son a gene mutation that is destroying his bone structure yet his collagen is very dense making his brain tissue very dense.  This causes him to be able to "use" his brain quicker.  But dense collagen in some gene mutations causes what we term retardation. I think your train of thought in what makes us "highly intelligent" is a quest for the very low in intelligence :)  Sorry, but I do.

    How something is taught to you even makes a huge difference in what you learn, what you retain long term, where it is stored in your brain and to what degree of accuracy , what it is anchored to and makes it accessible, and how easily you can access it during stress (an important thing for soldiers and all who instruct them to understand as they head into combat).  I just find your quest for the intelligence gene to be a sad sad quest by someone who really doesn't care what makes people understand and learn and lead happy lives.

    Parent

    I don't know (none / 0) (#76)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:09:31 PM EST
    how to respond when I tell you what I think and I tell you what I think and you choose your opinion of what I think as the valid one.

    "I think your train of thought in what makes us "highly intelligent" is a quest for the very low in intelligence :)  Sorry, but I do."

    All I can say is "no".  How do I handle that exactly?  You are attributing all sorts of thoughts and motivations to me I don't have.

    Parent

    Look man (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:12:42 PM EST
    At my age I can't even define highly intelligent anymore.  I thought I knew what it was when I was younger, and I took the big people at their word too on some of this stuff but real life did not shake out and their theories proved to be extremely incorrect.

    Some of us survive, some of us don't, some of us can analyze and respond to the lay of the land and some of us can't, and some of us can only analyze certain land.  Some of us can inspire others and create, and some of us can't, some of us are good at quality control and some of us are simply good to controlling and destroying.

    Parent

    I think what you haven't really appreciated (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:01:43 PM EST
    is that the kind of research that will help us understand intelligence and genetics is not going to come from studies like those in the Bell Curve.  A whole different, actually qualified branch of science will be working on that question.  You have at no point acknowledged that, which is why your comments come off as being defensive of the Bell Curve.  If we were discussing the Human Genome Project and you were saying what you were saying, it would not come off as offensive or inaccurate, it would just be a matter opinion on whether we should pursue genetic research or not.

    I think understanding genes and intelligence is good work, but that's a separate subject.  I would think definitively tying race and intelligence together would be impossible genetically, there is no "race" gene, but maybe it's not.  Who knows.

    Parent

    I don't blame you (1.00 / 0) (#61)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:55:01 AM EST
    I long for (none / 0) (#58)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 10:21:34 AM EST

    us to understand what makes people smart.



    Parent
    If only I knew (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:55:42 AM EST
    Then I could "fix" everyone that I think is stupid :)

    Parent
    You could just say (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:25:11 AM EST
    "My name is sj and I don't have the ability to say anything smart so I wrote this sentence."

    and save time.

    Actually, you can cut and paste the above wherever you'd like.  Free of charge. It's on the house.

    Parent

    lol (1.00 / 0) (#65)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:35:02 AM EST
    Such a tender widdow feelings you have for someone who loves to hear himself speak.  Or see himself write.  

    Parent
    I think I know where... (none / 0) (#64)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 11:32:10 AM EST
    you're coming fro ABG...we should not limit the study or discussion of anything over pc bullsh*t.  I'd agree to that.

    I'm of the opinion IQ is no measure of intelligence, so all this Bell Curve nonsense is bullsh*t in my book...so I don't find it necessary to really study or discuss....political correctness has nothing to do with it...its just bunk.

    Parent

    I'm with you on using the Bell Curve (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 12:54:37 PM EST
    for this type of thing, although the Bell Curve is a great concept for other subjects.

    And I also think, as I think AGB said, that there are or will be genetic studies of everything you could possibly think of, and intelligence is most assuredly one of them.

    Parent

    I don't doubt it... (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:05:22 PM EST
    but I must question if "intelligence" is something that can be properly scientifically measured or defined for genetic study to be of any worth.  Chance of getting cancer? Yeah.  Chance of curing cancer?  Don't think genetics will ever tell us that.

    But as usual, Donnie is out of his element:)

    Parent

    Seems like science has determined (none / 0) (#80)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 01:45:29 PM EST
    that brain size, or the size of various portions of of the brain, can be broadly linked to "intelligence" (however intelligence is measured).

    You may not predict who will cure cancer but perhaps, say, you can increase odds of curing cancer by putting a bunch of the biggest brainiacs on it. Or something.

    Not sure how that ties into genetics.

    Hate to find out us Celtic/Italian mutts have small brain genetics, but I'm sure we'd muster the strength to somehow keep on keeping on.


    Parent

    No....brain size is NO such indicator (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:20:49 PM EST
    Take a look at Einstein's brain.

    Collagen density yes....unless it has gone awry and then it leads to retardation....so still....nothing solidly identifiable.

    If you are really really interested in what true intelligence encompasses try reading the latest book about it 'On Intelligence'.  You will probably come away pretty disappointed though  because it really does look like genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.

    Parent

    You're right about no link, MT. (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 04:02:40 PM EST
    In the old days, they used to measure skulls from various races by filling them with shot and measuring the cranial capacity -- to try to prove this link. In the new age, it's the search for the 'intelligence gene'. It's all bunk.

    Parent
    MT, I think it has been researched (none / 0) (#90)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:58:21 PM EST
    and farily well proven that there is a statistically significant - but slight - relationship between brain size and measures of intelligence.

    This is not to say that everyone with a bigger brain will automatically score higher on the intlligence tests than everyone with a smaller brain, nor visa versa.

    Of course, whether you feel the intelligence tests are valid or not is another issue all together.

    People with bigger brains are smarter than their smaller-brained counterparts, according to a study conducted by a Virginia Commonwealth University researcher published in the journal "Intelligence."[...]

    The study is the most comprehensive of its kind, drawing conclusions from 26 previous - mostly recent - international studies involving brain volume and intelligence.

    It was only five years ago, with the increased use of MRI-based brain assessments, that more data relating to brain volume and intelligence became available.



    Parent
    Einstein's brain was smaller than average (none / 0) (#95)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 04:05:57 PM EST
    If you must leave out the brain of the man who singularly made the largest impact on my higher education (to name the smallest impact he made) in order to prove your theory, I'm sorry but the bull$hit flag is coming out and is now being thrown down.  Please remove your junk science from my presence.

    Parent
    MT, you are a pisser. (none / 0) (#96)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 04:16:49 PM EST
    And I say that kindly.

    No one is leaving out Einstein's brain.

    What part of this did you not understand?

    This is not to say that everyone with a bigger brain will automatically score higher on the intelligence tests than everyone with a smaller brain, nor visa versa.
    .

    Parent
    So you're Bell curving brain size now? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 04:26:34 PM EST
    Which means you get to ignore THE FACT that the greatest contributing genius in my lifetime had a smaller than average brain?  Priceless....completely priceless.

    The fact that such a giant of a genius had an undersized brain makes your "information" complete bull$hit but hey....whatever man.

    Parent

    the late 90's that his brain, overall, was normal size, though parts of it were significantly larger than normal.

    But hey, don't take my word for it, google McMaster University Einstein.

    Or don't, and remain intentionally ignorant about this.

    Parent

    Not fairly widely known (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:29:55 PM EST
    if you would care to read any other place.  Bell curving your information too and leaving out specific items?  And parts of his brain were significantly smaller and he seems to have been missing a common wrinkle.

    Parent
    It's never the size of the brain that matters. (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Edger on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:35:10 PM EST

    It's the roominess of the mind. :-)

    Parent
    I had a feeling you'd be too obstinate (none / 0) (#105)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:35:05 PM EST
    to actually think and learn. Good night.

    Parent
    I'm fine learning (none / 0) (#107)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:36:11 PM EST
    I'll even weigh bull$hit, but I won't make bull$hit a gold standard.

    Parent
    Ah, what the heck, I'm stuck here at work (none / 0) (#102)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:29:02 PM EST
    for another 15 mins or so, here's what they found in McMaster University:
    At McMaster University, Einstein's brain was compared with brains of an age-matched male group. It was within normal limits except for the parietal lobes, which were 1 centimeter (15 percent) wider than that of the control group.

    Regardless of whether his brain was normal size or larger or smaller, brain size is not an absolute determinate of intelligence as I said upthread, however as other researchers at US Universities have shown, there is a slight positive correlation between brain size and measures of intelligence.

    The whole subject really is fascinating to me at a scientific level, although my sense of your irrational and angry responces is that you are more concerned with some other agenda...

    Parent

    I am being asked by my family (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:47:37 PM EST
    to stop fighting with stupid people and join them at dinner.  So CIAO and Chow

    Parent
    Seems to me that I (none / 0) (#99)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 04:55:26 PM EST
    remember reading the hypothesis that it wasn't the brain size that mattered, it was the wiring- the connectivity between areas of the brain.  Of course, that hasn't been definitively proven, just some recent studies that were indicative, but I'm too lazy to look them up right now.

    Parent
    That is probably part of it. (none / 0) (#100)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 05:14:50 PM EST
    Here's what that noted purveyor of junk science Scientific American has to say:
    Smarter brains tend to be bigger--at least in certain locations. Researchers have fingered parts of the parietal and frontal lobes as well as a structure called the anterior cingulate as important for superior cognition.


    Parent
    Yes...density and quality of our collagen (none / 0) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 06:34:03 PM EST
    BUT...too much or disorganized and it begins to hamper, impair, retard.  They aren't certain about any of it and more than one gene is involved in what determines the specifics of our collagen.

    Parent
    They are far, far from (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 07:05:44 PM EST
    really knowing for sure about any of it.  I majored in psychology and child development as an undergraduate, and took lots of courses in neurobiology, as well as physical anthropology.  Then I got a Master's in special education and worked with the developmentally disabled, emotionally disturbed, and autistic students for years.  The field has come far since those days, but not as far as many people like to think.  I had one professor who, years ago, said basically that "IQ is what IQ tests measure.  It doesn't necessarily measure actual 'intelligence.'"  In other words, a tribesman in Papua New Guinea would most likely not test well at all on a modern, Western "IQ" test, but does perfectly well in Papua New Guinea, whereas Marilyn vos Savant would not do at all well there.  (And, probably, neither would Einstein have.)  I had a physical anthropology professor who said that "race" is meaningless.  If you lined up every person on the earth next to each other by "race," you would not be able to tell the difference between each person and his neighbors.  Modern genetics studies also show that race is fluid- we're not necessarily the "race" (or "races") that we always thought we were.  The brain is far too complex for any easy answers any time soon, and they're far from understanding the genetics of the whole thing, as well.
     

    Parent
    At dinner my husband reminded me (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 05:09:13 AM EST
    that at the last military instruction symposium, a researcher working with the military has uncovered that having an abundance of a certain "type" of Serotonin prevents you from developing PTSD.  When I think about types of Serotonin having such an extreme affect on the brain....and we haven't even gone into norepinephrine.....and I'm supposed to believe that some magic gene out there exists?

    My husband says that we really can't even define what intelligence is.  We are trying to define it, but we aren't there yet.

    Parent

    Absolutely (none / 0) (#87)
    by sj on Wed Nov 30, 2011 at 02:39:39 PM EST
    the Bell Curve is a great concept for other subjects.
    But when discussing Bell Curve and Sully it refers to the book.

    Parent
    The late, great Patrice O'Neal... (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 08:11:54 PM EST
    ...shoulda taken a stab at Sully.  Sadly, O'Neal just passed away from complications of a stroke, which he suffered only weeks after being, to me, the highlight of the Charlie Sheen roast on Comedy Central: "Hollywood can't keep a Sheen down. It can keep an Estevez down, though.  Your brother, shoot, he's the good one, that boy does everything right and his mf'ing career is over."

    Patrice O'Neal on Natalee Holloway syndrome. Classic beyond measure.  RIP, Patrice. (LINK)

    I think it's worth noting that for (none / 0) (#39)
    by observed on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 10:23:09 PM EST
    about 40 years, entering freshmen (both sexes) at elite US universities were photographed nude, to collect data on skull size and intelligence, and related things. This happened to my father when he entered Harvard in 1941; I'm pretty sure that it happened to Hillary Clinton when she entered college, as the practice ended only in the late 1960's.

    Take from this what you will. I see a past instance of "Sullyification" of the topic of intelligence and genes from past generations.


    in the fall of 1967 (none / 0) (#44)
    by The Addams Family on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 11:17:41 PM EST
    incoming students at my university were photographed in their underwear, at least the women were

    those, that is, who did not refuse to participate in such an invasive, pernicious ritual ;)

    Parent

    And here I thought mandatory MMPI (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 11:30:47 PM EST
    Was invasive.

    Parent