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Saturday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 09:00:00 AM EST
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Traveling to warmer climes today.

Open thread.

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    Saturday Morning Open Thread | 118 comments (118 topical)

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    The US is far behind the intelligence curve (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 09:42:05 AM EST
    on Egypt. I forsee Tehran Redux becase of complete mishandling and misreading.

    Unacceptable in this day and age of communication.
    If the protesters get their hands on the secret police documets, like East Germany, US standng in Egypt and the Arab world will fall more, if that's possible.

    Does't the government understand the pan national anger conerning Palestinian isses, among others?

    pretty much everyone already knows (none / 0) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 09:48:26 AM EST
    that we have basically financed whatever horror Muby can come up with for decades.

    I think that horse has left the barn.

    Parent

    You give way too much credit,I think. (none / 0) (#5)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:03:01 AM EST
    On this site? yes. Among the US populace and within our government? I can't give credit without verification for knowing.

    Yes, I think our state and intelligence apparatuses are that ineffective.

    Currently there appears to be no effective leadership in Egypt. This might be better than most alternatives, at least for now.

    --reports of widespread looting-- sounds like Katrina redux.

    I'll be following this, guaranteed.

    Parent

    widespread looting (none / 0) (#6)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:06:09 AM EST
    where did you see this.  when I left home it was nothing but video of protesters hanging out on tanks.  completely peacful.

    turning AJ now.

    Parent

    Then you are seeing looting, damage (none / 0) (#31)
    by Towanda on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:14:35 AM EST
    to the Museum of Antiquities on Al Jazeera and hearing the reports of its own reporters and others saying their homes have been looted, too -- "very disturbing reports," says Al Jazeera, owing to the inability of the military to be the police, too.  (As Mubarak's corrupt police essentially have run away, disbanded.)

    Parent
    oh (none / 0) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:06:46 AM EST
    and I did not mean people in the US I meant people in egypt.  trust me.  they know.

    Parent
    'looting' (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:13:35 AM EST
    isone of those police and authoritaran buzz words that allows medeival 'remedies.'

    I read or hear 'widespread looting' and I think the regime will be pulling out it's heavier weapons. Police in Egypt are well armed and numerous. It's a paramilitary force. Maybe no field artillery, but everything up to and includng.

    Parent

    according to AJ (none / 0) (#13)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:23:15 AM EST
    whatever weapons the police had the demonstrators now have.  they looted and burned every police station and every police car they could find.

    and I agree with you that there is no doubt that some of those police stations probably had some serious arms.

    Parent

    Nobody but the Egyptian people (none / 0) (#10)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:10:12 AM EST
    'wished for this', PPJ, and of course, your ODS forces you to see this event as another bad thing for Obama, above all else.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that. :-)

    Parent

    Actually I don't care (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:09:50 PM EST
    if it is good or bad for Obama.

    I do care if it is bad for America.

    I hope that you would adopt the same attitude.

    Nothing I have seen in revolutions in the Middle East leads me to believe anything but that this will end with Egypt dominated by religious fanatics.

    I desperately hope that I am wrong.

    Parent

    If you don't care (none / 0) (#55)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:32:10 PM EST
    why did you bring up Obamas' name in the first place?

    I do care if it is bad for America.

    Yes, we must protect the corporate interests and stockholder profits of American citizens and companies above the interests of the Egyptian people.

    I hope that you would adopt the same attitude.

    Nothing I have seen in revolutions in the Middle East leads me to believe anything but that this will end with Egypt dominated by religious fanatics.

    Except that the religious opposition, the Muslim Brotherhood, has been trying to piggy-back and ride the unrest to their own advantage with a notable lack of success.

    Oh, I'm sorry, did I lend credence to facts ahead of your fears?

    I desperately hope that I am wrong.

    Given your past track record of wrong predictions you've made here, that's almost a given.

    Parent

    Because Obama is President (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:07:07 PM EST
    How this turns out will dramatically effect our foreign policy over the next two years.

    Your nasty personal snark is identical to what I could expect from Dark Avenger.

    I wonder why?

    ;-)

    Parent

    It couldn't be another "bash Obama" (none / 0) (#77)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:50:54 PM EST
    opportunity for you, he just happens to be President right now.

    Your nasty personal snark is identical to what I could expect from Dark Avenger.

    What's nasty and/or personal in relating the fact that you have made many predictions here and at your blog, and few of them have yet to materialize.

    Seems you take it personally when someone relates the truth about you, not that there's anything wrong with that  :-)

    Parent

    Well, there is cetainly one commenter here (none / 0) (#103)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 04:37:19 PM EST
    who is not relating the dark truth about himself, isn't that right?

    Parent
    Sointenly! (none / 0) (#104)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 04:40:27 PM EST


    Parent
    AJ (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:08:21 AM EST
    very peaceful.  not conflict.

    Parent
    protesters chanting (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:09:51 AM EST
    NO LOOTING NO LOOTING

    I submit if looting was taking place it was either just aholes or people trying to discredit the demonstrations.

    Parent

    Capt, you're preaching to the choir. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:16:01 AM EST
    the regime willuse this. The US may well use this t continue offering support to te 'stable' gvernment.

    Parent
    I dont think so (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:24:31 AM EST
    I am starting to be cautiously confident that they get this.


    Parent
    They do "get " it, Capt.... (none / 0) (#24)
    by christinep on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:45:53 AM EST
    and have for a long time. As we all know, of course, the dilemma since before Suez is the strategic importance (pan-Arab plus)of Egypt. As Al-Jazeera's commentators have been pointing out, so much depends on timing here; and, the timing is favoring the demonstrators. The people have the momentum...and, more and more clearly, the elusive "tipping point" seems to have passed (at least in the cohesive confidence of the society.) The real tricky point, from an international foreign policy standpoint, is the movement now of western societies (not just the US) toward realignment with the Egyptian people PUBLICLY while not further frightening other Arabic societies (and beyond) who might only see the US abandonment of an ally. My point is not that we shouldn't move more aggressively toward supporting the people; to the contrary, we should move in haste to align with the people...but, we should do it adroitly, smartly to minimize negative results with other allies that are necessary at this time.

    Parent
    "Ally" (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:28:09 PM EST
    Ally is the Egyptian people, not Hosni Mubarak.
    The ruling party in Turkey is conservative and Islamic and the country as a whole is deeply conservative, however we still have a good working relationship with them on issues relating to Israel and other foreign policy matters.
    We can have the same situation in Egypt if we handle it correctly. It is a great opportunity for BHO to truly be a transformational President that he promised to be.
    We either believe in freedom and democracy or we don't! It is as simple as that.
    I am curious to know what negative results we have to minimize with other allies. Who are these allies? The Saudi King? The King of Jordan?

    Parent
    Completely agree, Politalkix (none / 0) (#98)
    by christinep on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 04:05:51 PM EST
    Nothing hidden in my comments about needing diplomacy and smarts to "minimize negative results."  In using terms such as "ally," I was using the diplomatic terms traditionally afforded to Governments more or less aligned with us, etc. The recognition, as I'm sure you know, is given to the sitting government...and, as we both know from the experiences of many nations, those occupying the seats of such governments can and do change. For example: Mubarak apparently shifted over 30 years to an exceedingly repressive ruler. Yet, the conundrum has always been how to both hold the formal "ally" that would counter some of the other anti-western states and how to deal with the increasingly troublesome actions (particularly over the past 6 years) of Mubarak.  Eventually, it always calls for extrication, doesn't it?

    My husband & I were talking about this last night with some friends from Egypt. After my husband rehashed the matter of the US providing so much money to Egypt all these years--second only to $$ given to Israel--we also talked about the peace treaty way back when where the government of Egypt was willing to go against other Arabic states (and a fair portion of its own people) to recognize Israel, acknowledge it right to exist, and reach agreement.  Discerning the many paths to some peaceway in the Middle East has not been easy...ever. Everyone has their own idea of what is the correct approach. At that time and for some years later, the government of Egypt allied in many ways with us.  You allude to the King of Jordan: Look at the size and location, and consider the alternatives the ruler of that land has available...and, one can see the father as well as the son walking a tightrope.

    I do understand woulda-coulda-shouldas; but, I'm such a believer in playing the hand you get (or inherit.) Here is what I think: (1) Yes, it can be a transformational moment all the way around...especially, if the moving forward part doesn't stumble like some revolts have by turning to juntas or reprising a "reign of terror" (ala 1792 in France or 1960s Cambodia or Nkrumah in Ghana or....) It is important to think about a transition leader. See also Al-Jazeera's comments on same subject. (2) The pendulum swings, and the US needs to ride that change with open eyes, because there are layers of issues and relationships in that part of the world that we westerners have misunderstood for centuries. To assume that there is clear good or bad in the several state structures has the drawback that we witnessed when Bush II decided to go into Iraq to make it more like us and all that. (3) The biggest assumption that I make involves our quest for oil: Until we are truly & demonstrably ready (not just talking ready) to lower significantly our dependence on oil in that part of the world, the maneuvering "ally" situation has to continue. Why? Because our own oil lust has trapped us. But then, we really have to talk about who drives what, how many miles individuals drive, how big are people's residences, how much energy do we use, from where do each of us buy our food (even, do we insist on fresh fruits from foreign climes in winter), what about all the high-tech energy driven devices, etc.  Yep, #3 is the biggie.

    Parent

    if by "long time" (none / 0) (#26)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:49:21 AM EST
    you mean two years I might agree.  I hope you do not think that a republican president would be having the same reaction.  McCains reaction should be all we need to know about that.

    as far as what the do.  IMO its a no brainer.  just like the Bush Tax cuts all he has to do is nothing.

    Parent

    I would consider the 2 yrs you mentioned (none / 0) (#56)
    by christinep on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:34:46 PM EST
    as about right.

    Parent
    "allies" (none / 0) (#51)
    by Andreas on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:26:24 PM EST
    That "international foreign policy standpoint" is essentially the standpoint of US imperialism.

    The best thing which can happen is the overthrow and arrest of all those "allies" of US imperialism.


    Parent

    Some guy named Ginsburg-- (none / 0) (#93)
    by MKS on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:39:54 PM EST
    maybe Marc, a former Ambassador to Morrocco, and a professional expert on cable tv, said on
    CNN that  Obama's public statements clearly--and unfortunately--were supportive of the demonstrators.

    If we are seen by the Muslim world as quashing a public call for democracy, how many of those young men in the streets now will be scooped by Al Qaeda?

    Parent

    Agreed. It is difficult to fathom (5.00 / 0) (#107)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 05:38:13 PM EST
    how Mubarak can continue to physically remain in power, let alone govern with even a semblance of effectiveness. The time is past for Mubarak and quickly getting so for the US to adopt that reality and make its position public.  President Obama has made the right initial statements, but he now needs to back them up with diplomatic force.

    If an allied leader has lost the support of his people at even half this scale, it would be foolhardy for us to continue with our support.  As for Marc Ginsberg, he brings a neocon bias to his expert opinions (e.g. a commenter for FOX and contributor to the Weekly Standard) on the Middle East, and, in this case, sees Iran's fingerprints all over these young demonstrators.  Ginsberg seems to have started out well as an assistant to Senator Kennedy, Cyrus Vance, and then, made Ambassador to Morocco by President Clinton. I wonder when he stopped learning.

    Parent

    They looted grocery stores (none / 0) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:34:26 PM EST
    They stole food.  Looks like the museum is safe as can be though, last I heard the military said that they were out in front to protect the museum and the demonstrators seemed very cool with this....you can't eat history in a food sense.

    Parent
    Sadly, some artifacts in the museum (none / 0) (#75)
    by Towanda on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:45:19 PM EST
    were destroyed, including two mummies, according to the museum director interviewed on Al Jazeera.  And a lot of damage to cases, shards on the floor and more can be seen on the videos.

    Interesting that you heard of looting of food; reports on AJ were otherwise, and that such supplies are fine so far.  However, the loss of utilities -- water, electricity, etc. -- is going to cause some privation soon, if not restored.

    Parent

    I chalk the initial attack (none / 0) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:56:24 PM EST
    on the museum up to regime plants trying to make it look the people were doing it.  It seems that the military is wise to what the regime was tring to do.

    Parent
    Plants (none / 0) (#94)
    by MKS on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:42:01 PM EST
    There are reports that those looting were carrying ID cards showing they were with Egpytian government--Mubarak's allies.

    Parent
    If people didn't know (none / 0) (#33)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:31:13 AM EST
    They know now if they watched the news last night.  News talked about the many presidents who happily worked with him and the large amounts of money we've given in aid (much of which I'm sure he pocketed).

    Parent
    Maybe this browser (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:26:50 AM EST
    will allow me to type.

    I don't defend Mubarak at all. I do blame the US for continually backing up a repressive regime. Egypt has been our partner in the dirtiest parts of the war on terror.

    I think that the US has not attempted to develop relationships with non-Mubarak actors in Egypt, but instead has marginalized those actors.

    For example, El Baradei and those he influences. The US put all its eggs in the Mubarak basket. Reminds me of, oh, US policy toward Somoza, Trujillo, Duvalier, Pinochet, Pahlavi, and more.

    I dont think the should even hint (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:28:20 AM EST
    at backing "a person" they should only back the people

    Parent
    Agree much (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 08:13:38 PM EST
    The President and SoS should only say that they back the people and their choice of government. They should publicly and privately warn Mubarak against trying to remain in power by unleashing violence against the people of Egypt. We the people of America can also show solidarity with the people of Egypt and support democracy and freedom there by organizing a massive gathering in Washington DC and other big cities to observe "Egypt Day" or "Peace and Freedom" Day.
    America was respected in the Arab world before the 1950s unlike the British and the French who were seen as colonizing powers. Unfortunately, we embarked on oil adventures since that time and copied the methods of European colonizers that tarnished our reputation among broad swaths of people in the Middle East and elsewhere.
    The time is ripe to regain our reputation. We should not even hint of choosing their leaders, IMO. Let the people decide who they want in their governments.

    Parent
    The Mediterranian Arab states (none / 0) (#115)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 08:25:31 PM EST
    were some of the first to recognize the US. We shouldn't act like history doesn't matter.

    Parent
    I think they back the person (none / 0) (#18)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:31:56 AM EST
    until it starts looking grim for the person... US diplomatic history is consistent, but not pretty in this case.

    then they choose a new person to back, irrespective of the will of the people of the independent nation.

    And then, ultimately, our government will make profound statements about 'democratic reform' for the new folks, while ignoring the previous support of dictators.

    Parent

    AJ announces (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:29:49 AM EST
    the military will absolutely not fire on the people.
    I am listening to a military leader right now who sound a helluva lot like a protester.

    "I will take off my uniform and join you on the streets"

    I hope he means that (none / 0) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:58:36 PM EST
    I hope he isn't killed and replaced by someone more "workable".  We really need this, the people of Egypt need this more than anything.

    Parent
    Saw that video. Powerful (none / 0) (#85)
    by Towanda on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 02:32:52 PM EST
    and probably will become an iconic moment.

    But then, he said that he would put his uniform back on at nighttime to patrol the streets, telling the people to go in their homes overnight for safety.

    But there apparently are not enough military to do so, as now the people have had to form neighborhood vigilante groups, armed, to defend some areas.  Awful.

    Parent

    masks fall (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:37:49 AM EST
    The blogger who still loves Mubarak
    Pamela Geller cheers for mass arrests, worries that Obama will throw our "ally" under the bus

    My worry is that the US (none / 0) (#23)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:45:42 AM EST
    WON'T abandon support for Mubarak.  I can't tell whether the US has any plans or is just pulling any response out of the national rear end.

    I'd like to see an interim military takeover of government. End Mubarak's reign, do some democracy-building, and then elections.

    We won't wake up tomorrow to a provisional government of outsiders who have the social institutions in place to govern.

    Interior in Egypt is set up like the KGB.

    Parent

    Better, methinks, to have a civilian head of govt. (none / 0) (#59)
    by christinep on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:44:43 PM EST
    --even for the eventual interim--than a military. The reason is that it is historically hard to re-establish or build democratic institutions with a military junta in control...in most places.  The question is: Is that person the new VP or someone else?

    Parent
    I'd suggest the new VP, (none / 0) (#61)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:54:25 PM EST
    since he's Air Force, just like Mubarak.  

    I suggest the military for Egypt because as an institution, it has the respect of the people protesting, and it is conservative enough and well-disciplined enough to take over administration from the Interior.

    IMO, Mubarak has eliminated any entity BUT the military that could enter and maintain the bureaucracy while joint military/civilian entities establish civil governance.

    After 30 years of this strongman, and the years of Sadat and Nasser before him, nothing is in place.

    In Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary-- well, there were social institutions in place unconnected or only remotely connected to the regimes that were replaced.

    I'm not suggesting a coup. I'd like to see a resignation and a handing of power to an interim, military-headed, provisional government.

    Parent

    Some good points about the military (none / 0) (#65)
    by christinep on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:05:38 PM EST
    BUT I'm concerned that even a well-respected, disciplined military is antithetical to paving the way for elections. Granted, the MidEast typically does not have the democratic tradition that existed in some fashion in the eastern European countries you cite. That really is the dilemma.  For example: Recall that Mubarak 30 years ago was a respected member of that same military, etc. etc.  IMO, a military government--no matter how professional, good, well-intentioned pulls in the opposite direction of according more freedoms for the citizenry. Whether South or Central America, other African experiences, some obvious Asian examples, the result tends to imitate a well-intentioned "strong" leader threefold.

    Al-Jazeera indicates throught its commentators concerns about a vacuum or the eventual leader. What are your impressions of ElBaradei in any transition?

    Parent

    I think ElBaradei would be (5.00 / 0) (#69)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:24:26 PM EST
    an excellent choice. I would feel relief if he were either named interim leader, again with the support of the military, or if he were some part of a ruling troika-- ElBaradei, an Army or Navy leader, and a religious leader...

    But I'm just looking at this from an armchair.

    I have tremendous respect for ElBaradei. My concern would be that as an interim president, he'd be blamed for the nasty mess-cleaning that will have to follow regime change.

    I don't know if Egyptians would stand for a "truth commission" approach, as the South Africans did. But I don't think Egypt need collapse into complete chaos OR go toward fascism, either.

    It would be exciting and interesting to be involved in the creation of a new national government, even on a low level.

    Parent

    confirmed (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:36:21 AM EST
    thugs from "the regime" attacking and looting.  many reports of this.  

    army know this (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:37:03 AM EST
    asking people to go home so they can deal with them.

    Parent
    no doubt that many "looters" (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:45:56 AM EST
    are actually the former police that dissappeared.

    Parent
    Exactly, Capt...that's how (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:54:58 AM EST
    these corrupt regimes roll.

    Parent
    No, AJ reports that police (none / 0) (#43)
    by Towanda on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:03:39 PM EST
    disbanding meant that jails and prisons were opened, so convicted criminals now are back on the streets.  A sign that Egypt needs a new government, and fast, to restore safety for the populace.

    Parent
    most of those "criminals" (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:05:57 PM EST
    were political prisoners.  this "looting" is not the protesters.  they are fighting and dieing to stop it.  some "thugs" have been identified as party people


    Parent
    Some, but be realistic (none / 0) (#52)
    by Towanda on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:27:58 PM EST
    There is no society without criminals.  And there is no society that does not need a structure of law and order to provide safety and security.  That is the reason for forming societies, communities.

    I am watching and listening to AJ, too -- because AJ is capable of subtleties, not simplistic all-or-nothing thinking.

    Parent

    But it's not pt i (none / 0) (#57)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:35:07 PM EST
    'criminals gone wild,' just as in New Orleans the situation wasn't 'criminals gone wild.' When it comes to crime, a robber won't easily become a burglar... criminals tend to specialize, for lack of a better term.

    The extreme difference in living standards between the rich and everyone else is certainly an issue.

    Average wage in Egypt is about 50 bucks a month. The ultra-wealty live like the ultra wealthy do here, above most of the laws, and above most of the social problems.

    More to be said after my browser allows me to type. An ineresting and extremely importat area, Towanda.

    Parent

    Yes, important because (none / 0) (#63)
    by Towanda on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:01:47 PM EST
    idealizing what is going on in Egypt will not prepare us for what could come from chaos: harsh measures welcomed even by those now protesting the Mubarak regime.  If they are not supported, and soon, in bringing down Mubarak to be able to restore order (since the lack of order serves him, or so he seems to think), we have seen before -- including in our own country's revolution; I see so many parallels -- the overreaction that can result.

    Parent
    I figure by the time (none / 0) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:54:27 PM EST
    Jordan kicks off and Lebanon, there is going to be so much hell going on we won't even be able to decide if we are coming and going.  We will mostly be left to watching our USA military equipment kill demonstrators attempting to find a measure of food and sanity and a voice to express suffering with.

    Parent
    And yes, the situation in NOLA (none / 0) (#64)
    by Towanda on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:03:24 PM EST
    was not entirely "criminals gone wild."  But there were some criminals, and police, taking advantage of chaos.  Again, why not qualify the statement?  The ever-useful terms such as "some"?

    Parent
    I'm a soft touch. (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:54:21 AM EST
    Got an email from Angel Eyes, saying that a breeder has four standard poodle pups, black,male, not neutered yet, that will be dumped at the pound in a day or two.

    Of course I just adopted two of them. Cookie the Pit Bull looking dog (not a pit bull, amstaff, or any other 'vicious' type for legal/insurance reasons, his vet labelled him a 'mixed breed,' thank goodness) needs a companion or two.

    Besides, who doesn't like fuzzy puppies?

    thinking of naming one of them (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:55:37 AM EST
    Captain Howdy and the other  Kdog, out of respect.

    Parent
    Ya sure... (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by kdog on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 02:56:26 PM EST
    its no disrespect to the pooch?

    If not, I'm flattered.

    Parent

    My elderly mother has already (none / 0) (#90)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:26:04 PM EST
    asked for partial custody of one. she calls her dog, "Dog." I think the names are great, and reflect lots of non-legal issue posts, as well as gender. also, sufficient consonants for the dogs.

    'Oculus,' 'Anne,' or 'Military Tracy,' inter alia, just don't have the 'snap.' Casey, OTOH, but she's the captain, and I don't want to either kiss up or offend. Next female I adopt...

    ;-) I'm eager!

    Parent

    Your captain is one sick puppy herself (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by caseyOR on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 05:53:12 PM EST
    these days. Today marks my fourth day in the grip of some dastardly sinus infection, head cold, bronchitis with a fever malady. Going through tissues like I own stock in kleenex.

     I did manage to throw enough of the correct stuff in the soup pot, so chicken soup is simmering on the stove. I highly recommend that everyone keep a supply of chicken backs and necks in the freezer for just such occasions. Also, I have decided that nothing soothes a sore throat quite like lemon sorbet.

    Jeff, you've chosen excellent names, and namesakes, for the new dogs. I trust pictures will be forthcoming. How do you think the pups will take to the sea?

    Kdog, Jeff, one of you take the helm, please. Your captain needs to lie down.

    Parent

    Feel better, oh Captain (none / 0) (#109)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 06:28:45 PM EST
    my Captain! You can't go yet!

    I have to figure out the whole flicker thing. I have pics already, sent by the rescue group. Don't know how to load them to here, though. Facebook, yes, here, I gotta see a fella about a thing.

    Feel better, Casey. As I told my brother yesterday, if all else fails, drink tequila. It tastes worse than medicine.

    Parent

    Oh, lord, no, not tequila. (none / 0) (#111)
    by caseyOR on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 06:41:53 PM EST
    One of those long stories involving a bottle of tequila and a night spent on the bathroom floor right next to the toilet. That was 35 years ago, and I still cannot tolerate even the smell of tequila, much less the taste.

    Bourbon, on the other hand, is a fine liquid refreshment. I must have some around here somewhere. :)

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    Dunno if he'll be a Jets fan... (none / 0) (#91)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:26:44 PM EST


    Parent
    cool (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:55:53 AM EST
    :-)


    Parent
    I love standard poodles (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 02:41:04 PM EST
    They are my second favorite breed, so intelligent, so loyal, so loving.

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    Me, too (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Zorba on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:36:01 PM EST
    Mr. Zorba loves dogs, but is allergic to pretty much every breed except poodles.  We have had several standard poodles.  They're great dogs.  Smart and appealing.  The only negative is the care their coats need, but I long ago learned how to clip and wash them myself, which saves a lot of money at the groomers.  

    Parent
    i give myself (none / 0) (#96)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:53:46 PM EST
    a "high and tight" haircut once every two weeks or so. If I can convince the pooches to let me cut near the face, we'll be fine with that.

    I've got a similar allergy to cat dander. After a day around cats, I'm physically ill, even taking something like claritin beforehand.

    Parent

    Correction... (none / 0) (#97)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:55:01 PM EST
    I give the haircut from March to October to myself...winter, I just let it grow. It's almost a 'skullet' now.

    Parent
    A little patience (none / 0) (#101)
    by Zorba on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 04:19:06 PM EST
    And rewards and praise for the dogs- they learned to accept my shaving their muzzles.  The feet were more of a problem (both shaving the feet and between the toes, and trimming the nails, but they learned to accept that, too).  A really good electric dog clipper is a must.

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    I've given up on nail trimming, and (none / 0) (#102)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 04:31:29 PM EST
    tend to leave that to groomers. However, if I'm trimming between the pads, perhaps nail trimming might be included with these two new arrivals.

    depends on the trust and confidence levels.

    Parent

    You have to (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Zorba on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 04:49:42 PM EST
    be careful with the nail-trimming- it's easy to cut into the quick.  Cutting just a bit at a time (or using an electric nail grinder) helps a lot- it definitely takes practice.  Going through obedience training with your dogs also helps- I've always done this with ours.  If I say "Sit" or "Down," they do.

    Parent
    I don't know much about clipping (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 05:23:57 PM EST
    Know that the people at the shows have very good clippers.  I do have to deal with toenails though.  One of my dogs is really impossible too, I have to mildly sedate her.  But a Dremel tool with a one of those file barrels on it is a dream and makes it much easier.  I bought one of those special roto files for dog nails but they have really poor power and it takes forever.  The dogs don't have patience for the length of time.  Dremel makes a special doggy Dremel too for dog nails that I have heard great things about, but I just use our regular old Dremel.

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    I recommend the (none / 0) (#112)
    by vml68 on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 06:43:25 PM EST
    Dremel 7300-PT for nail trimming.
    Post pics of the pups when you can, would love to see them.

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    Oil prices... (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:58:20 PM EST
    Speculators will be gouging. Somehow trading should be halted. Prices don't reflect what's happening in Egypt or Tunisia.

    Capitalism-- use fear and uncertainty to make money? fine.

    An economic system with the ideology of cancer. ugh.

    Kuwait leader covers his bases (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 02:20:27 PM EST
    Gives his citizens a nice bonus check and free food for a year.  Hmmmmmm....could it be because this is all really about and has been fueled by dictators not feeding their poor in the face of Ben Bernanke's quantitative easing and blowing up of the world's commodities?

    Re Egypt and change (2.00 / 1) (#4)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 09:59:07 AM EST
    I think this old saying applies.

    Be careful what you wish for because you may get it.

    Is this Obama's Iran 1979 moment??

    No one knows.

    There is no certainty... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by kdog on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:35:29 AM EST
    Jim, only opportunity...lets just hope the Eqyptian revolution succeeds where others have failed...and what appears to be a secular uprising isn't hijacked by a new set of religous extremist tyrants to replace the US-friendly tyrants.

    Hopefully the Iranian revolution can serve as a warning to the Egyptian people to not allow the religous tyrants to sneak in the back door while the US-friendly tyrant is kicked out the front door.  I think the internet and a better educated citizenry gives Egypt a better shot at some success in building a better society than the Iranians had.

    Parent

    We can all hope (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:05:00 PM EST
    but I would prefer something with a bit more authority than hope and wises.

    Parent
    you (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:06:43 PM EST
    and Pam Geller

    Parent
    I am a realist (2.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:12:41 PM EST
    and I remember Iran.

    Again, I hope I am wrong.

    But nothing I have seen in the past, or at this time, leads me to believe I am.

    Parent

    Its all we got boss... (none / 0) (#88)
    by kdog on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:06:57 PM EST
    not our place, maybe we will learn from past mistakes as well, eh?  Mind our own and simply urge our boy Mubarek to be a statesman, resign, and save some lives.

    Though I fear that isn't going to happen...he is digging in for a fight.

    Parent

    Are you the old saying (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:11:27 PM EST
    Because you sound so anachronistic once again.
    Some of us wish for freedom and democracy all over the world, no cheap imported oil, a world powered by non-fossil fuels, alternative energy sources developed in the USA. It is not about you, Jim. let the people of Egypt chose whether they want to elect their own George McGovern or Sarah Palin. We should respect whatever they chose, not impose a dictator on them.

    Parent
    If I could wiggle (3.00 / 2) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:20:54 PM EST
    my nose and accomplish the things you wish for my nose would be a blur.

    But I can't. And you can't. Butterflies are free but Unicorns don't exist.

    If I am right then the people of Egypt will lose what small freedom they had to a religious theocracy that will bear ill will to all the non-Islamic world.

    And I desperately hope that I am wrong.

    Parent

    The demographics of Egypt (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:29:17 PM EST
    and even the religious demographics are different from Iran 1979, tak goodness. While there is a strong conservative religious base, there is a larger, more cosmopolitan religious base.

    Eduation levels in Egypt, literacy, both much higher than Iran 1979.

    Again, I see similarities between Cairo and Tehran. But this is an urban uprising based more on economics than religion. Poverty and mistreatment of the educated city population has been a driving force in this.

    Parent

    Perhaps (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:08:19 PM EST
    But only time will tell.

    Parent
    Thank you, Polonius. (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by Harry Saxon on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 02:02:27 PM EST


    Parent
    Harry Saxon, (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 02:16:27 PM EST
    you gave me a laugh out loud beer spilling moment.

    Parent
    I should start a Big Band (none / 0) (#116)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 02:16:09 AM EST
    and call it "Polonius Monk and his Poker Playing Jokers".

    ;-)

    Parent

    "Either for tragedy, comedy, history... (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Dadler on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 09:17:44 AM EST
    "...pastoral, pastoral-comical, historical-pastoral, tragical-historical, tragical-comical-historical-pastoral, scene individable, or poem unlimited: Seneca cannot be too heavy, nor Plautus too light. For the law of writ and the liberty, these are the only men."

    Mostly tho, with PPJ, it's just comedy. And not intentional.

    Parent

    Now, Dadler (none / 0) (#118)
    by Harry Saxon on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 09:34:33 AM EST
    PPJ is the greatest poker player who was never in the World Series of Poker, we can't take that away from him.

    Parent
    I acted in a production of Hamlet... (none / 0) (#121)
    by Dadler on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 12:47:29 PM EST
    ...back in the 80's at UC San Diego when I was an undergrad theatre major (upon graduation they present you with a degree, a leotard, and a temp-service timecard), and at some future time, when I have more time, I shall regale you with tales of misguided university stagecraft that included a Claudius who was Czech with an accent thicker than taffy, a literal watery grave that came within seconds of drowning Ophelia at our final dress rehearsal, and a director who like to fall asleep backstage drunk during performances and who decided, three days before we went up, that a huge chunk of Hamlet's dialogue would be given to Horatio, who would act as a roving narrator, observing and "commenting" on the scenes he wasn't directly in.

    Good times, good times.  This guy played Polonius, BTW (link).

    Parent

    You seem jaded and without imagination (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:30:58 PM EST
    Show me Iran and I will show you Turkey, Indonesia and Bangladesh. Iran was not lost because of the overthrow of the Shah but because of Reagan and ignorant, conservative  policy towards the country for 3 decades that followed the overthrow of the hated Pahlavi regime.


    Parent
    Politicalix, are you (none / 0) (#58)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:42:16 PM EST
    replying to me? your post appeared drectly following mine. I'll refrain from replying untl clarifcation

    Parent
    No, jeffinalabama (none / 0) (#60)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 12:49:34 PM EST
    I like your posts.
    I am replying to Jim who thinks he is a "realist"

    Parent
    IAh yes (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:09:55 PM EST
    the evileeeeee Reagan who made the terrorists attack our Embassy.

    Parent
    No the same Reagan (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:33:15 PM EST
    who made deals with the "terrorists that attacked our Embassy" and tried to hide it from the American people while publicly cultivating an image of machismo. You were suckered, Jim.

    Parent
    And the Contras--the money went (none / 0) (#100)
    by MKS on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 04:15:13 PM EST
    to support those who fought against those who had toppled Somoza--another right wing dictator.

    Parent
    The same Reagan who called (5.00 / 0) (#99)
    by MKS on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 04:06:56 PM EST
    Rios-Montt of Guatemala a "man of great integrity" who was getting a "bum rap" on human rights.  Rios-Montt was the architect of the infamous "beans or bullets" campaign in 1982--which was fully supported by the Reagan administration.

    The genocide in Guatemala is Latin America's Holocaust.  Last week, a Federal indictment was issued against an ex-Guatemalan soldier who  had participated in one of the many, many massacres.  He was indicted for lying in his citizenship application about not having committed any crimes.  Two others were recently indicted or deported for the same thing.

    Reagan's henchmen in Guatemala will be hunted down one-by-one in the tradition of Simon Wiesenthal.

    Iran.  You have to go back to 1953.  The CIA toppled the democracty in Iran and put the Shah in power because the democracy was viewed as too Left.  We took the wrong side in 1953 (against Democracy) and reaped the whirlwind.

    And, in 1954, the CIA toppled the democractically elected Arbenz government in Guatemala, ending its Decade of Spring.

    Parent

    The U.S. cannot support (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by MKS on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:50:34 PM EST
    dictators as in the  past. Aside from the  atrocities and genocide in which the U.S. has been complicit in order to practice Kissinger's and Jeanne Kirkpatrick's (who coined the term "blame America first") realpolitic, technology makes it harder to control information and the people.

    Facebook, twitter and the rest make it a different world.

    Parent

    transformational Obama (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 09:30:36 AM EST
    if Obabma means what he says about wanting to be a transformational president IMO this is an opportunity that will not come twice.  if he would grow a pair and get out in front of this ending up on the right side of these conflicts as the dominos fall he could transform the view the arab world has had of the west for a thousand years.

    I think his approach so far has been acceptable.  marginally.  but he needs to show them that we are willing back the freedom and democracy that we like to talk about so much.  

    aljazerra yesterday pronounced US speaks out of both sides of its mouth.  its true.
    man up barry.

    You're (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:04:32 AM EST
    expecting Obama to "man up". I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

    Parent
    museum looting (none / 0) (#21)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:40:44 AM EST
    didnt happen.  its a lie.  says aj correspondent

    conflicting reports (none / 0) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:43:41 AM EST
    some destruction at the museum but it was stopped at least in part BY the protesters.

    Parent
    armed looters on motorcycles (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:46:31 AM EST
    harrassing protesters.  not part of them.
    complaints that the army (none / 0) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:51:26 AM EST
    is not opposing the protesters but they are also not protecting them from the above mentioned harassers.  several have been killed.  it this doesnt change I predict that we will start seeing some of those missing police guns.

    I hope, Capt, I hope. (none / 0) (#28)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 10:57:17 AM EST
    Tienanmin Square, for example, a long US diplomatic history...these do dampen my hope.

    hearing more about this "looting" (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:02:12 AM EST
    its sounding more and more that I was right yesterday when I said the they would torch the museum and try to blame the protesters.
    protesters pleading with army to stop the looting and destruction

    neithborhoods where (none / 0) (#32)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 11:16:05 AM EST
    protester types being attacked and looted.  forcing many protesters to go home to protect home and family.

    Mubarak is a slippery f*ck.  he know how to do this doesnt he?

    Don't worry Tracy, (none / 0) (#74)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:35:11 PM EST
    Egypt now has an M-1 manufacturing plant, under license.

    The Egyptian Army only bought 700 M-60s.

    Great :) (none / 0) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 01:48:54 PM EST
    I watched this morning as they spoke about how multinationals took away the only means the poor had of surviving, by a bunch of savvy businessmen taking over all the recycling....and now the rich regime can make their own giant people killing machines too.  Aren't multinationals great?  We are up to our armpits in further destroying and damaging the poor of this country, we are up to our armpits in creating this whole phucking hell that these people are trying to escape from.

    Parent
    Rememberr the song from (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 02:22:29 PM EST
    The Dead Kennedys? Kill The Poor? Arms, baby, that's the new 'it girl' for a company. Big sexy tank? Ooooooohhhhh...

    Parent
    MT, Kdog, Capt Howdy, (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 03:20:11 PM EST
    Little kdog and little cap are on their way to a foster home until tomorrow.

    I'll have to do housetraining, but Cookie the wonderdog (the one who resembles a pit bull but really isn't, even though he really, REALLY resembles a pit bull) will help with that, I hope.

    Cookie loves other doggies and children, so not expecting any issues. Except poop.

    Parent

    It seems like those who are housebroken (none / 0) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 06:41:04 PM EST
    train the young ones who aren't IMO.  At least they seem to in our house.

    Parent
    I apologize (none / 0) (#113)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jan 29, 2011 at 07:07:22 PM EST
       

    in advance for what I may say regarding our Secretary of the Treasury, Tim Geithner.

    He was Charlie Rose's only guest last night, and while it wasn't the first time I saw Geithner being interviewed, or giving a speech, or whatever, it was an experience that I guess you could call an epiphany.

    I would love to be able to interview Charlie about last night's show and see if his interpretation was similar to mine.

    Basically..........the man (Geithner) is an incoherent, mindless, blathering fool. This isn't a simple ad hominem, it is a reasoned, clinical description.

    I hope someone else in TL's audience tonight saw the show last night as describing it is very difficult. It wasn't just me that was perplexed by the man, the audience also was confused. They didn't know whether to applaud, reject, laugh, or cry at some of his babbling, masquerading as sentences. His facial reactions, or actions, also were baffling. When Charlie asked him a question, Timmy's face, and his lips, went in two separate directions. We didn't know if he was trying a little self-deprecation, humor, or was just confused.

    After a while the audience responded to each of these little episodes with a kind of embarrassed murmur; you could tell they were quite uncomfortable.

    And, BTW, how I wish I was there to do the interviewing as Charlie did a lousy job in probing and asking the questions anyone here would have thought of to ask. (Chas. is usually pretty good, but this was not the first time I saw Rose capitulating to a rich & powerful person)

    Anyway......bizarre.

    I have (none / 0) (#119)
    by lentinel on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 11:36:09 AM EST
    always thought that Charlie Rose was as dumb as a post.
    I will always remember him telling his audience how we would be welcomed by strewn flowers as we liberated Iraq.

    As for Geithner, your description, "an incoherent, mindless, blathering fool" fits the bill.

    And, we should come to some realization, it seems to me, that we should take in something about Obama who appointed this guy in the first place.

    Parent

    A Davos attendee interviewed on, I (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Sun Jan 30, 2011 at 12:24:19 PM EST
    think "Marketplace" on public radio, sd. the issue of most interest re Geithner's speech there was what does the Obama administration plan re creating jobs.  But Geithner didn't talk about that.  

    Parent
    Saturday Morning Open Thread | 118 comments (118 topical)

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