Friday Open Thread

Who's going shopping today?

I'm taking the day off, which means I won't be on line much.

I hope all Talkleft visitors had a wonderful holiday. I looked at so many store ads my eyes are blurry. At least I forgot about ISIS for a few days.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome

< Pre Thanksgiving Open Thread
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    We had a wonderful and tasty (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by fishcamp on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 06:47:38 AM EST
    Thanksgiving dinner with good friends down here in the blustery  Florida keys.  Lots of homemade dishes to go along with a big turkey.  Mme Zorba's delicious Tzatziki was much appreciated.  It was good my friend's house had several couches, to rest upon, digest, and have conversations.  Hope everybody had a great Thanksgiving.

    Shell casing #6- (none / 0) (#2)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 07:33:26 AM EST
    In this report Wilson says that he fired 10 shots at 4 separate times -- 2 at Tahoe, 5 when 15 feet away, then 2, and finally the last 1.

    But CSIs recover 12 shell casings at the scene -- 1 shy of the 13 max for Wilson's gun. So he now knows that they know that his math is bad.

    Later to the Grand Jury  in DM article here he can't recall how many shots he fired anywhere anytime at all -- he just fired.

    The question of the day is how did 2 shell casings from bullets fired from the same place inside the Tahoe get out of the Tahoe and wind up so far away from it along the south curb -- and so far from each other???

    They are markers #4 and #6 on the crime scene map.

    Why was not atleast one of them found on the floorboard of the Tahoe or on the ground right outside the drivers door??? Shell casings bounce maybe max 12 feet away as the location of the 10 recovered down the road showcase.

    How did those two casings get out of the Tahoe and then get so far away from it and then wind up so far apart from each other???

    Is it possible that one shell casing fired inside the Tahoe was never recovered by CSIs as it was picked up and pocketed by Wilson???

    And was shell casing #6 from the round fired as Wilson was chasing Brown -- the one that hit his right hand that experts say was bleeding so profusely at markers #19 and #20 where he turned around -- bleeding that should have been at the Tahoe door but was suspiciously absent.

    Once again the witnesses are vindicated.

    At what point will you decide to (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 08:52:09 AM EST
    "move on"?

    By all means everyone should just (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 11:10:23 AM EST
    "Move on.  

    Moving on has been so successful in resolving everything from torture to the government eliminating our constitional rights and every Wall Street and government abuse in between.

    If we don't talk about unpleasant subjects, the problems will just magically go away. Fra la la la la. For sure lets all save our beautiful minds for the more cultured things in life.

    Of course even silencing Chip might not work, since we will then be left with the unchallenged high quality comments of whitecap, Jim and other like minded supporters of Wilson.


    Please explain how the detailed (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 11:59:22 AM EST
    back and forth re the minutiae of the incident helps solve the goal of fairness in how law enforcement treats black people?

    Discussion of a problem even (none / 0) (#33)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 12:41:13 PM EST
    when the discussion is at times repetitive is quite often the precursor to action. It keeps the issue in the spotlight and often leads those who read the comments to do independent research to find out more information. While the issue remains alive, action and change is possible.

    Moving on as you advise just puts it in the category of this is just too unpleasant to discuss. So like many other issues lets just sweep it under the rug and silence dissenting voices. Once the voices are silenced, action ceases soon after and the chance of chance dies.

    Chip's POV is different than yours. You have chimed in with your support for law enforcement and McCulloch whenever it suited you. First you suggested that the issue should not be discussed until all the information has been presented and now that there is more information, with comments that Chip has discussed the issue too long.  


    I don't think it is too (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 12:51:37 PM EST
    unpleasant to discuss. And, I suppose, if cmmenters want to spend their time reviewing the gj materials and arguing about them w/each other, so be it. But, ultimately, the remedy re Ferguson PD is in Mr. Holder's hands. I am confident he will obtain a detailed and meticulous reconstruction of the incident based on these materials and his own staff's work.

    You place a whole lot of faith (none / 0) (#39)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 01:21:52 PM EST
    in an administration that is notorious for moving forward rather than take action.

    The approach has not worked well for addressing numerous issues especially when people silenced themselves and others because they just knew that the problem would be fixed.


    "Move On" Means (none / 0) (#26)
    by RickyJim on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 11:50:37 AM EST
    we don't understand how these details show that Wilson is guilty so stop kwetching about them. As I keep telling him, he should post them at theconservativetreehouse.com where he certainly will find somebody willing to engage in such minutiae.

    Thank you for giving us your interpretation (none / 0) (#30)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 12:03:11 PM EST
    of what the words "Move On" means to you. It, according to your comment, means that you do not have to move on at all but can repeatedly keep telling another commenter what to do and where he must do it.  

    It is nice when someone goes out of their way to prove my point.


    Don't pull a word changer (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 11:53:11 AM EST
    Move on???

    This tragedy has been investigated by local and federal.

    You don't like the results so now you wanna talk about all kinds of things that have nothing to do with the facts in this tragedy.

    Try reading the GJ testimony. That's what I'm using as my base for:

    the unchallenged high quality comments of ... Jim and other like minded supporters of Wilson.

    I really don't think (4.00 / 3) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 09:04:18 AM EST
    you understand, for whatever reason, how offensive the Michael Brown case is for some.
    There are people who do not subscribe to the "the prosecutor got away with it so it has to be legal" school of thought.

    Not to say Chip should not consider moving on.


    Chip (2.00 / 1) (#14)
    by whitecap333 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 10:00:59 AM EST
    is "staying the course," in accord with presidential mandate.  To the "Hands Up" crowd, what we have seen thus far is but an introduction to the monumental "transformational changes" approaching fruition.  Hopelessly delusional, of course.  

    Pain (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by bocajeff on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 10:23:38 AM EST
    I understand the pain and hurt this must cause people.

    My pain, though I don't think there's enough evidence against Wilson, is that the young man died needlessly. Potential was wasted. Family and friends are hurt. A city is burned. Political divides widened.

    We need better screening and training for police. We need to get rid of some of the drug laws. And we need to better interdict 18 year old people from stealing from stores and assaulting store owners, allegedly.

    For every Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown there are literally thousands of other people killed in this country each year. Each one deserves to be addressed, mourned and from which to have a lesson to be learned.


    Really?? (2.00 / 1) (#12)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 09:55:28 AM EST
    Why was not atleast one of them found on the floorboard of the Tahoe or on the ground right outside the drivers door??? Shell casings bounce maybe max 12 feet away as the location of the 10 recovered down the road showcase.

    No one knows. But both could have been ejected out the open window and kicked further during the struggle.

    Once again the witnesses are vindicated.

    Uncle, if you want to be credible you are going to have to back up your claims with direct links to the GJ testimony... you know, like GJ V page 7 line 7 to line 17.... (That's just an example I don't know what the content is)


    "if you want to be credible" (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 09:58:49 AM EST
    so many jokes
    So little time

    4U Jim: (none / 0) (#20)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 10:37:32 AM EST
    So I guess, Jim, you missed (none / 0) (#21)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 11:07:45 AM EST
    this -- Wilson's obsession with shooting Brown's right hand at the point where he turned around at markers #19 and #20 where all the blood from his right hand wound was.

    Chip (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 11:44:03 AM EST
    If you want to be credible you're gonna have to leave a GJ reference... Number, page and line... and then we will know what you are talking about..

    And these references to things like, what happened to the shell casings?? Did Wilson put it in his pocket??

    There is no claim that Wilson didn't shoot Brown. there is no claim that there wasn't 12 shots.

    So what's your point?? The only thing I can think of is that you are trying to raise a cloud...create a false scene...confuse. Very typical when someone is trying to prove that a conspiracy exists.

    Now, can't you see what this type of thing has done?? I mean look at the supposed picture of Wilson's eye that Donald thought was sent out by the FPD. And remember the claim that Brown had been arrested for, I think, burglary. Both false.

    But both fanned the flames on the Right and then fanned the flames on the Left when they were proved wrong... except in many cases, see Donald's comments re the FPD as an example, people don't get the word.... Look at your comment re blood on the SUV..yet it was there as described in the GJ testimony.

    And these types of things sent over the so called social media have been used by people who have no interest in Michael Brown but just want an excuse to start riots and burn.

    Try to think what your actions do.


    Jim (none / 0) (#37)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 01:04:49 PM EST
    What's my point???

    Perhaps this says it best.

    For the entire proceeding, jurors weighed the evidence in light of a law that was deemed unconstitutional almost 30 years ago. Then they corrected the record at the very end, but by then it was too late.

    There was no struggle for the gun, no felony committed in the Tahoe, and Brown was not a fleeing felon. He had no right to resort to deadly force by law and/or by evidence.

    I'm just correcting the broken record of prefabrications and perjurious statements that all of us have been forced to endure for over 3 months.

    So get used to it.


    No link So I don't believe (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 01:25:23 PM EST
    No struggle for the gun??

    Really? And your proof is?? Johnson?? Let me see...

    He claimed that Wilson had a hold of Wilson's neck...

    Yet the autopsy found no damage

    GJ 9/9 Page 186 Line 23 to 189 Line 22


    Back of his left forearm -- (none / 0) (#16)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 10:16:22 AM EST
    For months all we've heard about is this great struggle for the gun provable by the blood inside the vehicle and a shot to the hand there -- and yet here's what we find from the report:

    There is no evidence and the blood inside the vehicle turns out to be on the handle that Wilson used to open the door.

    There was only a small amount of blood on the outside of the drivers door where Brown was standing and none on the ground.

    If his hand had been shot there there would have been a lot more blood especially on the door and the ground because hand wounds bleed fast and bleed a lot.

    But what do we find there -- blood on the back of Wilson's left forearm which he runs back to the station to wash off.

    How do you get blood on the back of your left forearm in this instance when it's found hardly anywhere else??? Here's how:

    Wilson admitted that he had a hold of Brown's right wrist with his left arm. Witnesses say so as well -- referring to it as appearing like a tussle or arm wrestling.

    And when you're arm-wrestling or gripping the other person's wrist the back of your forearm faces what -- the other person's upper arm.

    That's where it would have come from -- the blood coming from the shot to Brown's upper arm at the window -- just as the witnesses testified to.

    The report is quite a read.


    And go to your own source (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 10:16:35 AM EST
    page 5 and you will see that blood and human tissue was found on the Tahoe.

    By (none / 0) (#38)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 01:10:02 PM EST
    secondary transfer from Wilson. Did you miss the door handle??? Brown's blood but Wilson's fingerprints.

    And his gun was not tested for Brown's DNA or fingerprints as he wiped it clean and bagged it himself.

    Even the CSI writing the report was stunned that the Ferguson PD permitted that.



    For the newbie commentator (none / 0) (#3)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 07:39:57 AM EST
    Not Uncle Chip, Black Friday is a good day to get fresh white sheets for your next meeting with the other members of the K.

    You could not get me near a mall (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 08:36:43 AM EST
    with a team of horses.  

    Hope everyone's turkey was perfect.  

    A team of horses (none / 0) (#10)
    by CoralGables on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 09:31:35 AM EST
    would be unlikely to find a suitable parking space. Perhaps a VW Bug would work better.

    Rob Lowe Directv commercials (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 08:46:45 AM EST
    i assume most have seen these. Bother are actually pretty great.  Previously TV did a list of " rejected Rob Lowes".  I especially like Standing Desk Rob Lowe and "Doesn't Even Own A TV" Rob Lowe.  There was another they didn't picture - Painfully Akward Rob Lowe.  It was pulled because people who can't pee in front of others apparently have have a rights group.

    Goth Rob Lowe
    OCD Rob Lowe
    Men's Rights Activist Rob Lowe
    Drunk Department Store Santa Rob Lowe
    Ostentatious Vegan Rob Lowe
    Garage Sale Haggler Rob Lowe
    Aging "Club Kid" Rob Lowe
    PT Cruiser Rob Lowe
    OTB Addict Rob Lowe
    Accidentally Shot Off His Own Toe Rob Lowe
    Piano Key Tie Rob Lowe
    Abolish The Penny Rob Lowe
    Overpronounces Foreign Terms Like Alex Trebek Rob Lowe
    Brony Rob Lowe
    Real Bad Allergies Rob Lowe
    Eats At Chick-Fil-A Rob Lowe
    "Human Cheese" Enthusiast Rob Lowe
    AOL Subscriber Rob Lowe
    Still Tries To Defend The Series Finale Of Lost Rob Lowe
    Bread Snob Thanks To University Eurail Pass Rob Lowe
    Amateur Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Rob Lowe
    Pretends He Doesn't Need Glasses But Totally Does Rob Lowe
    Too Into Roller Coasters Rob Lowe
    Keeps Eight Birds As Pets Rob Lowe
    Standing Desk Rob Lowe
    Adult Braces Rob Lowe
    "Doesn't Even Own A TV" Rob Lowe

    Speaking of TV (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 09:15:48 AM EST
    there is a Hitchcock marathon on TCM today.

    The most damning (none / 0) (#9)
    by whitecap333 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 09:29:04 AM EST
    part of the video of Brown's "shopping expedition" has occasioned little comment.  At the end, Brown, on his way out the door, suddenly turns, apparently in response to something said by the clerk, and advances on him in a threatening manner.  The clerk cringes.  We are obliged to rely on inference for what words may have passed between the two.  An invitation to dinner, perchance?  Or a threat of retaliation, if the police should be alerted to the theft?  And the clerk didn't call the police, did he?  No, that was done by a customer.  "Snitches get stitches."

    The media still refuses to comment on the fact that Brown had a "pocket full of 'weed'" when confronted by Wilson.  1.589 grams, to be exact (Crime Laboratory Controlled Substance Analysis Report.)  Why this curious reticence?  To the journalistic mind, this information is simply too "prejudicial."  It would trigger "stereotypical" thought process in the unenlightened.  The truly sophisticated know that possession of the "leafy green" needed to make "blunts" of stolen "cigarillos" is no big deal.  The information might even cause some to jump to the conclusion that Brown attacked Wilson, in a panicked attempt to avoid being "busted" for theft, and caught in possession of "weed."  Can't have that.  It destroys the "narrative."

    Yeah, they're avoiding the question (none / 0) (#11)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 09:50:58 AM EST
    Because we all know what violent monsters weed makes of men.

    Please (none / 0) (#22)
    by whitecap333 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 11:07:56 AM EST
    I deplore, with you, the quaint, "reefer madness" biases of Missouri lawmakers.  It is most regrettable that, in their provincial simplicity, they have made possession of marijuana a serious offense.  Ach, it is too much.  The center cannot hold.

    Who said anything about defending this (none / 0) (#31)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 12:14:03 PM EST
    serious violation of the relevant MO laws on MJ, sir?

    But, please, keep telling us how this was relevant to the actions of Officer Wilson.

    Your witness, counselor.


    Perhaps (none / 0) (#36)
    by whitecap333 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 12:59:05 PM EST
    you would care to restate your question, in intelligible form.  I thought we were discussing the impact possession of marijuana would have had on Brown's state of mind.

    You keep making this accusation (none / 0) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 10:14:41 AM EST
    You have stated on numerous other occasions that Brown's fear of  MO's hash penalties for marijuana possession was the reason for his actions.

    How harsh are the penalties in MO for possession of 1.6 (rounded) grams of marijuana? Is it a felony? What exactly is your definition of harsh? Is the penalty harsher than what it would be for the alleged robbery?

     Surely you wouldn't have made that statement numerous times without knowing what the penalties actually are. So I'm going to repeat my request, tell us,

    how harsh are they?



    Good question (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 10:23:07 AM EST
    The answer


    Up to 35 grams. A violation is a misdemeanor, punishable with a fine of up to $1,000, up to one year in jail, or both. (Mo. Ann. Stat. § 195.233(1)&(2).)


    Up to five grams. Penalties include a fine of up to $5,000, up to seven years in prison, or both. (Mo. Ann. Stat. § 195.211(3).)

    Took me about 144 seconds to Google that.


    Thank you for doing whitecap's research (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 11:31:41 AM EST
    for him.

    I want to thank you for pointing out how easy it would have been for whitecap to obtain this information. That he failed to do so and chose instead to repeatedly rely on the following vague statement is a mystery.

    The penalties for possession of marijuana, in Missouri, are said to be quite harsh.

    I will take this time to point out that the penalties stated for the misdeamor of possessing 1.6 grams of marijuana are the maximum and not the minimum penalty allowed. Also the penalty for the sale of marijuana, while informative, is not relevant to this case.


    Whitecap, (none / 0) (#27)
    by whitecap333 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 11:52:12 AM EST
    rather more modest than some here, needs, and appreciates, all the assistance he can come by.

    Are you seriously proposing that Brown would have been indifferent to the prospect of being caught "holding" marijuana?

    CNN now saying that Johnson had a discussion about "weed" with one of the construction workers as he and Brown were on their way to the store.  It was implied that "refining" THC was touched upon.  


    Jim didn't complete the research (none / 0) (#32)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 12:18:04 PM EST
    Much like most of the country, our jails are overcrowded. Plea deals are becoming the norm and drug courts which deal with treatment rather than jail time have been established to combat the problem. Unlike you, Brown probably was aware of those facts.

    Your comments on this defies logic. According to your version, Brown is so worried about being caught with1.6 grams of marihuana that he decided it would be safer to challenged an armed police officer and risk getting shot.


    Logic Defied (none / 0) (#35)
    by whitecap333 on Fri Nov 28, 2014 at 12:53:11 PM EST
    Does what we observe on that video not "defy logic"?  Caught red-handed stealing cigars, Brown throws the protesting clerk into a chip display, and swaggers out the door.  If you can propose an alternative inference, I would be most interested to hear it.  As earlier noted, the admissions of Johnson's lawyer, and the 911 call to the police, seem to remove from the table the claim that a theft did not occur.  And I doubt that Brown's elevated THC levels did much to enhance his judgment.

    Research is hardly needed for the proposition that robbery, combined with possession of marijuana, can have serious consequence, including the prospect of jail time.  Common sense will do quite nicely for that.