home

Transformative Change

A few weeks ago, I wrote about a Kevin Drum post in which he declared that in terms of enacting transforming change, President Obama was "clearly better than Carter and Clinton and quite possibly the equal of Reagan." I questioned the premise in terms of not only crediting Obama with transformative change but also crediting Reagan with having achieved it.

In an e-mail exchange with Drum, he fleshed out his argument that Reagan was transformative - stating that Reagan won the tax argument for a generation and made the case for the triumph of unfettered capitalism. Drum also mentioned Social Security reform and nuclear reduction treaties as transformative change. The last two points strike me as silly - certainly conservatives do not think of the last two as great triumphs for Reaganism. But I would like to consider the first 2. Let's discuss them on the flip.

In 1981, Ronald Reagan requested and lobbied for tax cuts. He succeeded - the Economic Recovery Tax Act was enacted. It was a big tax cut:

* phased-in 23% cut in individual tax rates; top rate dropped from 70% to 50%
* accelerated depreciation deductions; replaced depreciation system with ACRS
* indexed individual income tax parameters (beginning in 1985)
* created 10% exclusion on income for two-earner married couples ($3,000 cap)
* phased-in increase in estate tax exemption from $175,625 to $600,000 in 1987
* reduced Windfall Profit taxes
* allowed all working taxpayers to establish IRAs
* expanded provisions for employee stock ownership plans (ESOPs)
* replaced $200 interest exclusion with 15% net interest exclusion ($900 cap) (begin in 1985)

Did it transform the federal government? Hardly. Indeed, parts of the bill never even saw the light of day: "The accelerated depreciation changes were repealed by Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 and the 15% interest exclusion repealed before it took effect by the Deficit Reduction Act of 1984." And of course, in 1983, Reagan signed the biggest tax increase in history - the Social Security Amendments of 1983:

Under the 1983 amendments to Social Security, signed into law by President Ronald Reagan, a previously-enacted increase in the payroll tax rate was accelerated, additional employees were added to the system, the full-benefit retirement age was slowly increased, and up to one-half of the value of the Social Security benefit was made potentially taxable income.

And in 1986, Reagan signed the 1986 Tax Reform Act:

The top tax rate was lowered from 50% to 28% while the bottom rate was raised from 11% to 15% since many lower level tax brackets were consolidated, and the upper income level of the bottom rate was increased from $5,720/year to $29,750/year. This package ultimately consolidated tax brackets from fifteen levels of income to four levels of income. [. . .] In addition, capital gains faced the same tax rate as ordinary income. Moreover, interest on consumer loans such as credit card debt were no longer deductible. An existing provision in the tax code, called Income Averaging, which reduced taxes for those only recently making a much higher salary than before, was eliminated (although later partially reinstated, for farmers in 1997 and for fishermen in 2004). The Act, however, increased the personal exemption and standard deduction.

The rate structure also maintained a novel "bubble rate." The rates were not 15%/28%, as widely reported. Rather, the rates were 15%/28%/33%/28%. The "bubble rate" of 33% simply elevated the 15% rate to 28% for higher-income taxpayers. As a result, for taxpayers after a certain income level, TRA86 provided a flat tax of 28%. This was jettisoned in the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990, otherwise known as the "Bush tax increase", which violated his Taxpayer Protection Pledge.

The reform eliminated many many deductions that largely favored the wealthy (and holding capital income to pay the same rates as ordinary income was extremely hard on the very wealthy) and the bill was touted as "revenue neutral." More importantly, the "reform has basically been washed away, with conservatives complaining about it.

In the end, Reagan's "tax transformation" was basically ephemeral at the time. Both his immediate successor, George H.W. Bush, and Bill Clinton, raised taxes, especially on the wealthy.

In 1990, Bush signed a deficit reduction bill that relied primarily on raising taxes on the wealthy:

Early in his term, Bush faced the problem of what to do with leftover deficits spawned by the Reagan years. At $220 billion in 1990, the deficit had grown to three times its size since 1980. Bush was dedicated to curbing the deficit, believing that America could not continue to be a leader in the world without doing so. He began an effort to persuade the Democratic controlled Congress to act on the budget; with Republicans believing that the best way was to cut government spending, and Democrats convinced that the only way would be to raise taxes, Bush faced problems when it came to consensus building.

In the wake of a struggle with Congress, Bush was forced by the Democratic majority to raise tax revenues; as a result, many Republicans felt betrayed because Bush had promised "no new taxes" in his 1988 campaign. Perceiving a means of revenge, Republican congressmen defeated Bush's proposal which would enact spending cuts and tax increases that would reduce the deficit by $500 billion over five years. Scrambling, Bush accepted the Democrats' demands for higher taxes and more spending, which alienated him from Republicans and gave way to a sharp decrease in popularity.

And of course, as discussed before by me, President Clinton signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993 which:

It created 36 percent and 39.6 income tax rates for individuals. [up from 33% top rate]

It created a 35 percent income tax rate for corporations. [up from 28%]

The cap on Medicare taxes was repealed. [Making it less regressive.]

Transportation fuels taxes were raised by 4.3 cents per gallon. [Helpful for the environment.]

The taxable portion of Social Security benefits was raised.[Making wealthier seniors pay more in taxes.]

The phase-out of the personal exemption and limit on itemized deductions were permanently extended. [Again, making wealthier Americans pay more in taxes.]

Part IV Section 14131: Expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit and added inflation adjustments [In essence eliminating taxes for the working poor.]

In sum, after Reagan's "transformative change" of 1981, never again were taxes cut. Instead, Reagan himself, Bush 41, and Clinton raised taxes, especially on the wealthy and Clinton reduced the tax burden on the working poor through the expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit.

What Drum argues was a "transformative change" was not. Of course, George W. Bush did cut taxes for the wealthy. And now those tax cuts should be undone and will be, if Dems are firm.

Contra Drum, there is no majority public support for maintaining Bush' tax cuts for the wealthy and for corporations. In other words, Reagan lost the argument on tax cuts for the wealthy.

In addition, Reagan lost his battle against FDR regarding the vision and structure of the federal government. Reagan made no inroads in reducing the role of the federal government at all. Indeed, Drum actually pointed out to me in an e-mail that Reagan won the battle over increasing the size of the federal government with regard to military spending. If Reagan had a transformative effect, it was here.

Bill Clinton was at least Reagan's equal in terms of transforming the debate about taxes and government. Clinton's 8 years of "peace and prosperity" were marked by an inrease in taxes for the wealthy and a recommitment to the positive role of the federal government. At the end of his Presidency, Clinton fought and beat the Gingrich Republicans in their attempts to gut Medicare and Social Security and indeed all aspects of the wlefare state. Indeed, in the last 3 years of his Presidency, Clinton issued 27 vetoes of GOP legislation (PDF).

And of course, in 1995, Clinton issued 11 vetoes in his fight with Gingrich that led to the shutting down of the government. Clinton won that battle. And then won reelection.

Now of course those battles are ongoing to this day. And that is indeed precisely my point. Look how those battles are fought - no one is arguing for a wholesale dismantling of the federal government, as Reagan did early in his Presidency. FDR won the battle.

And indeed, the only transformative President of the last 100 years - the one who has won the ideological battle for the foreseeable future, remains FDR.

Neither Reagan, nor Clinton nor Obama have enacted "transformative change." And it is silly to pretend otherwise.

Speaking for me only

< Monday Morning Open Thread | Paris Hilton Charged With Coke Possession, Arrest Report Released >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    When the top rate is back at 70% (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:19:12 PM EST
    you will have won this individual point.

    In other words, Reagan lost the argument on tax cuts for the wealthy.


    Well (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:53:19 PM EST
    I suppose you could look at it that way, but I think looking at the effective tax rate is more meaningful.

    By that measure, Clinton and Bush 41 basically repealed the Reagan income tax cuts.

    Parent

    Reagan showed that myth (none / 0) (#7)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 03:30:07 PM EST
    is more important than fact.

    People want the story that makes them feel good; the truth, not so much....

    Parent

    Leadership is a mix of the two (none / 0) (#9)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 03:47:36 PM EST
    The malaise era of Carter caused the people to look for a leader who inspired them (the feel good part).  The numbers/facts are not all myth either.  Some seem to forget the double digit inflation and double digit mortgage rates among other pains being experienced.  

    Like him and/or his policies or not, America was a different and - based on the '84 election results - people felt a better place.

    Parent

    Interesting that you mention (none / 0) (#11)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 04:07:27 PM EST
    inflation and mortgage rates.  

    Reagan had nothing to do with breaking inflation and lowering interest rates.  His policies of increased defense spending and tax cuts were classic Keynesian fiscal stimulus and led to huge budget deficits.....and budget deficits tend to place upward pressure on interest rates because the government is competing for money (loans) to finance the deficit.

    What broke the bake of inflation in the early 1980s?  The Fed's Paul Volker raising interest rates to stem the tide.  Monetary policy.  Reagan had no control over monetary policy.

    Who a appointed Volker to the Fed?  Reagan?  Nope.  Carter did, but he gets no credit.

    So, a Carter appointee to the Fed ended inflataion but Carter gets no credit.

    See what I mean by myth meaning more than reality?

    Reagan was largely a fraud.

    Parent

    Yeah but didn't St Ronnie (none / 0) (#14)
    by brodie on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 05:04:20 PM EST
    end the Cold War all by himself with that speech at the Berlin Wall?

    Reagan lucked out tremendously with his domestic political opponents in the 80s -- Carter, Mondale, the wimpy Dems leading the Iran-Contra comm'ee, the one which should have led to impeachment; the curiously soft MSM coverage for 8 yrs -- and had great luck in the 2d term with his political opposite in the Sov Union, Gorbachev, the leader more responsible for beginning the end of the cold war.

    Parent

    What was done in Guatemala (none / 0) (#16)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 05:21:44 PM EST
    by Reagan and his cohorts is unforgivable.

    Parent
    Who can forget Ollie's (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 08:12:37 PM EST
    dewy eyed Jimmy Doolittle performance for the cameras that was allowed to go on and on..

    The buzz was that "the presidency had already been too damaged by Watergate", and that the American people were on the verge of completely losing faith in their elected officials in Washington.

    Parent

    A leader is able to bring and keep people (none / 0) (#17)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 05:31:17 PM EST
    behind his/her vision and path.  That is not a fraud.  Again, as proven by the '84 election.  Nobody carries 49 states, to include your opponent's without the people trusting and believing in both the person and their policies.  History can't change those facts.

    Yes, Volker was appointed by Carter but was also kept on by Reagan.  The Fed Chair shouldn't be politicized.  

    Carter was not a leader.  His malaise speech then his handling of Iran was all the demonstration the country needed.  He got elected due to a similar backlash that fueled our last election.  Hell, I even voted for Carter.

    Parent

    Reagan was popular (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:01:00 PM EST
    but is that the real criterion?

    I sometimes think it is.  Conservatives need to win, to validate themselves existentially.  Just win baby.  The actual policies matter not as much...except to the mega wealthy who want their taxes low.

    Reihan Salam on the Chris Matthews Show last Sunday agreed that conservatives are about validation.  He said the Beck devotees are not about the "have nots" but the "are nots."  It is about cultural validation.  Christopher Hitchens agrees in a column today.

    Thus, the tendency of conservatives to crow about victories...and how polling supports their views.....

    Liberals don't do this as much.....It is about the policy objectives much more....and because the nature and manner of achieving such objectives can vary extensively, you get the fractured Left.

    But with conservatives it is about cultural validation--often in the form of the religious terms articulated by Beck and Palin....This is a tribal war cry....for relevance....

    The need to gain validation from authority shows how conservatives cope with defeat.  They co-opt the agenda they opposed.  Witness Civil Rights.  And Women's Rights.  They were always the ones who championed these issues, so they say--even thought they didn't at all.

    Watch what is happening with gay rights and gay marriage.  Conservatives are starting to internalize the knowledge that they will lose this issue.  So, many conservarives now downplay the issue and say they don't care.  Watch the next step as they totally acquiesce.  The final step?  Conservatives will say they were the ones who championed the cause from the beginning and it was the Democrats who were anti-gay.....

    See, it is not so much about issues as religious and cultural affirmation by those in authority--winning.  This is why Reagan is so revered by conservatives--not so much because of his policies, but because he won, and won big.  

     

    Parent

    Wow, so many points to address (none / 0) (#21)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:25:10 PM EST
    Like it or not, the ultimate Reagan deregulation policies set the stage for Clinton and the .com boom.  It unleashed the American can do spirit.  

    The conservatives don't have a lock on the "win at any cost" mantra.  That is an impairment of pols of every stripe.

    Beck and Palin may be wearing out their megaphones during their XXX minutes in the spot light but they are not the leaders nor thought framers of conservatives.

    I, and most all my friends/associates don't want religion to be part of politics.  My faith is my personal business and I don't advocate leveraging legislation towards those beliefs.  That is where the left seriously mis-read where the conservatives are when it comes to governing.  Ignore the drum beaters just as I ignore the hard core left drum beaters.

    Regarding Civil Rights, I find it very interesting that the left conveniently and completely forget about the Eisenhower initiated Civil Rights Acts of 1957 and 1960 and how they were handled by the Senate Majority Leader - LBJ.

    The jury of future results on gay issues is still out.  Your projection is mere speculation.

    For the party of tolerance, there sure seems to be this massive hate towards people who have a belief and/or faith.  The really odd part is that there are many here on the left who make reference to their faith but those comments/positions are never challenged.  Hmmm.

    Parent

    For the present day (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 01:51:41 AM EST
    GOP demographic, which is presently composed, to a large extent, of the descendants of those who were most bitterly opposed to civil rights reform in the fifties and sixties, to attempt to glom onto some of the reflected glory from the Eisenhauer civil rights era is a laughably cheap and dishonest distortion worthy of Glenn Beck..

    If history doesn't make us feel good enough about ourselves, well, we'll just rewrite history until it does -- and take credit along the way for some good things we had nothing to do with.

    And while we're at it, lets not forget that the GOP is the party of the man who saved the union and freed the slaves. Why not?          

    Parent

    Put another way (none / 0) (#19)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:17:51 PM EST
    Liberals don't tout very often FDR's landslide victories....It is more about what he actually did.....

    Conservatives (and of course this is over-generalizing to make a point) love to throw favorable poll numbers and election victories in the face of liberals....It is almost the desired end of politics for them--the whole point of it all.

    Liberals often wracked with self doubt and internal division will refer to favorable polls to say, "heh, the people are with us."

    It is about creating a myth in reaction to bewildering and accelerating and threatening change.....

    versus....

    Trying to solve practical problems via elections....

    Which approach is more powerful and wins?

    How threatened and scared are people?   It is simple reactionary politics....At some point, however, the change will occur anyway.....

    Parent

    Have you ever stopped to consider that (none / 0) (#23)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:30:06 PM EST
    if the people aren't with you, then maybe the "practical" solutions you are offering aren't the best?

    Please don't misinterpret that I'm saying the conservatives are 100% correct 100% of the time because that is not the case.

    However, if there is always a gnashing of the teeth/issue/solution - even as you admit within the liberal faction, then is it any wonder that the term Liberal Elite is perpetuated?

    Parent

    I think the way Carter (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:32:07 PM EST
    "handled Iran" had a lot to do with the way the people who tried to sabotage the Paris peace talks in '68 and bugged the Democratic headquarters in '72 handled Iran behind the scenes leading up to November 1980.

    As MKS says, winning is everything. Even to the point of over-using the word "winning" itself; as when GOP droids like Hannity seem to get positively aroused by repeating ad nauseam "Ronald Reagan won The Cold War"; even though the policy of supporting the Afghan insurgents and bogging the SU down in an unwinnable war started under Carter and Brezinski. The 'victory' has to be completely owned by the GOP..

     

    Parent

    Reagan did win the Cold War (none / 0) (#25)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:38:20 PM EST
    I enlisted under Carter.  My first tours were in Europe under both Carter and Reagan, the difference in how we were viewed/treated by the Europeans between the to presidents was like night and day.  Under one, we were mocked, under the latter we were admired for his actions.

    It is funny to see the revisionist history played out in the first person.  During the Cold War the left was scared to death of the Soviets and all on board with the MADD concept.  Now, the guy that out pokered them is considered an ass.  

    Parent

    Thats an over-simplifying (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:48:57 PM EST
    bumpersticker, that insults the intelligence and doesn't do justice to the on-the-ground historical realities. Are you saying that the plan to bog the Soviets down in Afghanistan, hatched under Carter and Brezinski had nothing to with it?

    Of course, if you emotionally identify to that extent with Reagan, then, when he "wins" (all by himself), you win. It's a kind of narcissism through identification. Like when someone else takes way your sins.


    Parent

    Forums/blogs do not lend themselves (none / 0) (#29)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:56:55 PM EST
    to lengthy historical dissertations, sort of like your bumper sticker comments.

    As for "on-the-ground" historical realities, I was there.

    Narcissism?  At least you are consistent with your insultive and name calling methods.

    Parent

    Zbigniew Brezezinski was there too. (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by weltec2 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:32:04 PM EST
    In his book Second Chance (18), he points out that

    The defeat of the Soviet Union was the consequence of a forty-year bipartisan effort that spanned the presidencies of Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, and George H.W. Bush. In different ways, almost every president made a substantial contribution to the outcome, but so did other figures, such as Pope John Paul II, Lech Walesa (the leader of the Polish Solidarity movement), and Mikhail Gorbachev (the initiator of the disruptive perestroika of the Soviet system).

    He then goes on to give an overview of how this was done. Not to minimize Reagan's efforts, but the downfall of the Soviet system was the outcome of many years of effort to isolate the Soviet system within their own borders until they were forced to tear down their walls and join the international community. Saying that Reagan or any one person is responsible for the end of the Soviet system greatly oversimplifies a very complex series of events in world history.

    Parent

    Zbig likes to jump onto a winning team (none / 0) (#39)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:42:26 PM EST
    Truman - Yes.

    Eisenhower - Yes with his open skies policies.

    Kennedy - 50/50  He admitted Khrushchev ate his lunch in their personal meeting but he at least pulled off the PR win with Cuba with his Turkey deal.

    LBJ - No.  He was so wrapped up in Vietnam that the only thing he did was push NASA in the space race.

    Nixon - 50/50 maybe 60/40 with his initial treaties.  His opening China caused more pain for the Soviets.

    Ford - no result.  

    Carter - No. He had his azz handed to him by Brezhnev and the Olympic boycott backfired.  

    Reagan - Yes.  His raising the stakes with SDI, even though we spent pennies was the coup de gras.

    GHWB - Yes, but he played cleanup with the bases loaded.  

    Parent

    Wait, all that information's (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:45:03 PM EST
    already making me dizzy..

    Can't we just stick with "Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War"? And, "Support the Troops"?

    Parent

    Deep breaths. You'll be OK ;-) (none / 0) (#41)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:51:16 PM EST
    Yes! And no one was more (none / 0) (#46)
    by hairspray on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 09:14:19 PM EST
    annoyed about the myth of Reagan winning the cold war all by himself than Gerald Ford.  He said the same things you have said so eloquently in your post.   The conservatives are really quite immature in their policies.  It reminds me of children.  The ego, the lies, the bravado and the narcissism. All there for everyone to see.

    Parent
    MAD vs MADD (none / 0) (#26)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:39:12 PM EST
    Reagan ended the Cold War (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:59:22 PM EST
    Moses parted the Red Sea; George Washington chopped down the cherry tree..

    I also am not remembering all that tremendous respect and admiration the average european had for Reagan. When was that exactly?

    Parent

    Hahahah, to quote Reagan (none / 0) (#31)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:03:41 PM EST
    "There you go again."

    1977 - 1982 the first time.  The next time 1986 - 1990.

    Were you in Europe during that time?  

    Parent

    You were one person (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:09:11 PM EST
    I remember a lot of pols coming  out of europe at the time that seemed to bare out the theory that Reagan was viewed much less favorably than you're making out.

    And, btw, "there you go again" isn't exactly going to win anyone any debating prizes at Oxford, even if you do steal your opponents debate notes beforehand..

    Parent

    So you weren't there, OK (none / 0) (#33)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:13:58 PM EST
    And as for debating techniques, that line worked very well in an important debate.  Especially, in comparison to nonsensical ad hominem tactics.

    Parent
    And stealing those debate (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:22:13 PM EST
    notes was o.k too, I suppose..

    That also works well, when, as the other guy said, winning is everything.

    Parent

    Works just as well as governing using the (none / 0) (#35)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:27:21 PM EST
    "I won" statement in your first presidential meeting.

    Parent
    Well when you're right.. (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:41:53 PM EST
    sabotaging the odd peace talk, planting a few bugs here or there, delaying the release of a few hostages while making arms deals with 'our enemies', forgetting about Thou Shalt Not Steal when an important debate's coming up; they're all no worse than when a liberal makes a dumb public statement..

    I couldn't agree more.

    Parent

    And I didn't do a Biden and "steal" it (none / 0) (#36)
    by BTAL on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 07:28:16 PM EST
    because the credit was given to the originator.

    Parent
    Yep! (none / 0) (#42)
    by Molly Pitcher on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 08:01:30 PM EST
    Memory may fail (at my age), but I seem to recall something about the 'evil twins'--Thatcher and
    Reagan--while we were there.

    Parent
    Reagan won the cold war? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 10:54:40 PM EST
    Really now....I know some of ya like to feed that legend but it was nothing greater than being in the right place at the right time.  Russia's economy and its economic philosophies did her in as a superpower.

    And the full fruition of Reaganomics is now doing us in as a superpower.

    If it was a race, it would appear to be a race to the bottom and Russia beat us getting there first :)  Take a look at the United States and where we are now in the rankings for healthcare and education and look at how phucking fat we are.  What was that phrase from 'The Good Shepherd' that the Russian spy said about Russia? "It was never a threat. It will never be a threat. It's a rotted, bloated cow."

    If it wasn't for your military you would BE THERE and fully rotted.  As it is right now though, you ain't got nothin the world wants other than a military.  And as a whole, nobody in the world really wants to be you very badly right now.  You have nothing else covet worthy.  Hell, after being all over the world doing his thing my husband says that American cell phones and band width technology and infrastructure of those "cool" systems are super sucky compared to most of "old europe" and the rest of the world, but Americans are too stupid to know that and to understand that they pay three or four times more for garbage :)

    Parent

    Truman and Dean Acheson (none / 0) (#52)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 11:08:34 AM EST
    were the architects of the doctrine of Containment.

    The reactionaries like Curtis LeMay, and their descendants, would have embroiled us in WWIII.....

    What Reagan did to Guatemala in the guise of fighting communism was despicable.....and is a dark stain that will never go away....For that alone, Reagan deserves complete condemnation.

    Parent

    Europe despised Reagan (none / 0) (#53)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 11:11:32 AM EST
    Perhaps your immediate circle liked Reagan....

    But the anti-Europe fetish of conservatives began with the Eurepean dislike of Reagan--particulary his deployment of nuclear missiles in Europe....

    You believe in mythic Reagan--not the real one...

    Parent

    The only ones who disliked him (none / 0) (#55)
    by BTAL on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 12:46:12 PM EST
    where the whackos that laid themselves and their children on the ground at the GLCM bases entrances.

    Even the locals knew those people were nuts.

    Parent

    One man's experience (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 12:57:40 PM EST
    and a somewhat overly biased one at that, if I do say so.

    Maybe it's time to revisit the polls taken from the Europe of that era.

    Parent

    The people protesting (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 01:02:32 PM EST
    militarization and the arms race were "wackos". That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

    Parent
    You do emphasize how popular (none / 0) (#58)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 02:54:42 PM EST
    Reagan was--even to the point of stating categorically that he was popular in Europe....

    This seems to be what many Reagan fans fall back on......Indeed the point of great pride--his greatest accomplsihment....and justification for all things....

    You are proving my point.  Validation from authority....beating the other side....not policy.

    I did a quick search on polling and found this:

     

    In the last years of the Reagan administration, it was commonplace for the Soviet Union and Mr. Gorbachev to outscore the United States and Mr. Reagan in European opinion polls.

    This paper comes from the conservative Cato Institute.

    Reagan was popular--at home--because he tweaked the Europeans....

    So, other than your anecdotal, first hand observations, do you have any objective evidence that Reagan was popular in Europe?
    Or, is this just another Reaganesque story?

    Parent

    According to Gallup (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 03:40:33 PM EST
    52% of those polled who call themselves conservatives, voted Regan the greatest President in U.S history. Not the greatest of the last fifty years, or the greatest President of the twentieth century, but the greatest President in U.S history..

    And, I bet if they'd polled conservatives on the greatest leaders in world history, Reagan would've still made the top ten.

    The man is a veritable conservative cult figure.

    Parent

    Reagan's dismantling of PATCO probably comes (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by steviez314 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:45:22 PM EST
    close to his most transformative action.  It greatly affected people's views of unions, not to speak of union membership, wages and willingness to go on strike.

    I don't think unions have recovered at all since that.

    republicans move the nation to the right by (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by pluege2 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:40:40 PM EST
    overreaching.

    Unlike obama, who goes into battle with pre-capitulation after browbeating and disheartening his supporters, and then proceeds to nearly completely surrender, republicans since reagan have continually overreached and had to settle for a less than full victory, but nevertheless continually moving the center to the right to achieve their objectives. In short, republicans have been strategic, persistent, consistent in their long term view and the sad, destructive state of the nation perfectly reflects their vision. Democrats have been chaotic, incoherent mush.

    reagan was completely transformative in moving the center, moving the terms of discussion, and in making his side monolithic. obama has been completely divisive for everyone else.

    What bothers me (none / 0) (#1)
    by lilburro on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:17:31 PM EST
    with Kevin all the time is that he is inconsistent.  For example

    "won the tax argument for a generation"

    is the reason he finds Reagan transformative.  And yet in the very article you criticized he says

    "I wish he'd use his undeniable rhetorical gifts to really sell a liberal vision to the American public, the way Reagan sold a conservative one."

    That's one of his main points of comparison out the door.  So how does Obama = Reagan?

    Kevin wrote an article ("The Great Persuader") right after Obama was elected on this subject.  Did anything in that article happen?  Inside baseball is not going to be possible with more Republicans in the House and Senate.  Obama is going to have to sell a vision at some point to get things done.

    I think the good things LBJ did (none / 0) (#51)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:34:58 AM EST
    were consistent with the political environment that FDR created.  The Great Society was a natural progression from the New Deal.

    Reagan ended the New Deal, that was his transformation.

    Parent

    Agree completely (none / 0) (#3)
    by dk on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:21:38 PM EST
    that Reagan, Clinton and Obama are not in the transformative category.

    But what about LBJ?  Doesn't he get at least an honorable mention for transformation with Medicare?  

    Do leaders lead or follow (none / 0) (#6)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 03:28:29 PM EST
    The greatest transformations come from overall changes in society that politicians mirror or use.

    See JFK's Profiles in Courage (none / 0) (#8)
    by christinep on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 03:43:03 PM EST
    Perhaps never totally answerable. (none / 0) (#10)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 03:57:28 PM EST
    John Steinbeck in the Log from the Sea of Cortez, gave his opinion on political leadership based on his watching an amoeba move and change direction.

    Even though an amoeba will push off in a different direction with an arm or salient in the lead, it is the rest of the amoeba that pushes in that different direction, and the leading edge just happens to be there--it is being pushed, not pulling the rest of the amoeba behind it.

    So, too, political movements.....Someone who just happens to be in the right place at the right time, and who articulates a view that has become popular, becomes the leader.

    Reagan did not lead as much as harness (and use) a trend that was underway for any number of different reasons.

    Perhaps a single person can make a difference--but in terms of transforming society, not so much, I would venture.

    A corollary: The pols will be pols theory means that pols are (spineless) amoebas who merely follow, but do not create, the will of the people.

    Parent

    That colorful Steinbeck (none / 0) (#13)
    by brodie on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 04:49:37 PM EST
    metaphor is a little too cynical for this observer.  And JS himself had a mixed track record both as a follower and admirer of leadership, iirc.

    Moi, I prefer the leadership imagery of those striding ancient Egyptian pharaonic statues, with the back foot planted firmly but the front foot boldly moving forward.

    Good leaders, grounded in a strong moral sense of right and wrong and always staying in touch with the people but never always perfectly in step with them, should seek to be ahead of the pack.  

    But not too far out front, as I believe Abe Lincoln once noted.

    Parent

    Well, me, I prefer (none / 0) (#12)
    by brodie on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 04:41:42 PM EST
    the example of JFK's (post-BoP) presidency to his book, especially since it has that chapter on Sen Ross and the impeachment of Andrew Johnson which was written from the pov of the CW of 55 yrs ago and which isn't holding up too well these days.

    Parent
    Bravo! (none / 0) (#15)
    by masslib on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 05:09:01 PM EST
    I can't believe Drum ignored or didn't know that Reagan's early tax cuts were almost immediately repealed.

    huh? (none / 0) (#20)
    by pluege2 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:19:41 PM EST
    A top marginally tax rate of 70% cut nearly in half to 36%. That's hardly repeal. Like BTD, you loose the forest for the tress.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 08:08:44 PM EST
    you mistake the marginal rate with the effective rate.

    You do not understand the issue.

    Parent

    If you look at a graph (none / 0) (#54)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 11:20:48 AM EST
    of the percentage of the GDP taken by the Federal Governement over the last few decades, it is clear that the tax burden has remained remarkably stable since WWII.

    It has fluctuated in a narrow band between 17%-21%.  Even under Reagan the percentage of GDP going to the federal government was just about what it was at the beginning of the Carter adminstration....

    Under Reagan, they lowered the marginal rates and closed loopholes.....Although the top marginal rates had been 70%, many, many top income earners paid no tax at all because of tax shelters.

    Parent

    BTD losing the forest for the trees (none / 0) (#22)
    by pluege2 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:29:34 PM EST
    I'm am first to dump on kevin drum, but BTD you're wrong on this one - lost in minutia:

     1) cutting the top marginal rate from 70% to 36% - and it sticking, is huge!

     2) more importantly, and regardless of the minutia details, was the mindset of tax cuts being the only acceptable action of government. Sure some taxes were raised in some areas after reagan's draconian cuts, but a) reagan's cuts were draconian, and b) taxes haven't been raised in a long time; even democrats run on cutting taxes (only they blather about the middle class, but its still tax cuts. The only argument is who gets the cuts.) No politician at any level of government or any political persuasion can argue for tax increases these days. The days of Congress raising taxes to pay for spending are over! period.

    The only discussion is how much of a tax cut and who gets it. reagan won the argument of fiscal insanity over fiscal responsibility, hands down - completely transformative.

    The effectivetax rate is the forest (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 08:08:05 PM EST
    You are lost in the trees.

    Parent
    still missing it BTD (none / 0) (#49)
    by pluege2 on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 04:49:22 AM EST
    it is the mindset.

    raising taxes to pay for spending are off the table. republicans have been completely successful taking away the government's ability to do its job. reagan started it - transformative

    Parent

    Taxes must be low, especially on rich and (none / 0) (#50)
    by BobTinKY on Tue Aug 31, 2010 at 08:32:04 AM EST
    liberals are evil, baby killing, femi nazis, government is the problem not the solution, worship of all things military and patriotic jingoism .  . . .

    Reagan transformed US politics, what he accomplished legislatively is immaterial.   His politics has constrained liberals and liberal initiatives ever since.  He set the borders of acceptable political debate in the US and both Obama and Clinton stay within these borders.