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Is President Obama's Denomination Relevant?

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Other Politics
Posted on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:03:27 AM EST
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Think Progress:

When Roll Call asked Tom Ganley, a Republican running for a House seat from Ohio, for his thoughts on the matter, Ganley proclaimed that he doesn’t “have a position on whether he’s a Muslim.” Ganley quickly tried to walk back his comments, but only barely:

“During an interview earlier today, I was asked a question about President Obama’s religion that I felt irrelevant to the story being written about my campaign for Congress,” he said. “I do not believe President Obama’s religion has any impact on the need for jobs in Ohio’s 13th district. According to the White House, our President is a Christian and I have no reason to believe otherwise.”

(Emphasis supplied.) Again, we all see the game the GOP is playing here, but isn't it true that President Obama's denomination SHOULD BE irrelevant? Why isn't it? I refer you to my previous post on the subject.

Speaking for me only

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    Is President Obama's Denomination Relevant? | 136 comments (136 topical)

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    "game the GOP is playing" (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:18:09 AM EST
    it reminds me a little of another game.

    "I do not personally believe she is a racist . . . "

    sorry.  old wounds.  not productive probably.

    the really annoying part is if they did THAT game SO well why the heck are they so abominably crappy at this one?

    Ouch (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:20:13 AM EST


    Parent
    like Harry said (none / 0) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:21:48 AM EST
    I just tell the truth and the THINK its hell

    Parent
    That's what's interesting about this (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by nycstray on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:23:09 AM EST
    they absolutely suck at this game when they are on the receiving end. Maybe he should start running for re-election now . . .

    Parent
    It might help :) (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:27:34 AM EST


    Parent
    didn't they bring what's his name (none / 0) (#9)
    by nycstray on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:32:32 AM EST
    back to help with messaging?

    Parent
    Plouffe was supposed to fix this. (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:40:25 PM EST


    Parent
    he may not know it (none / 0) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:31:52 AM EST
    but he is IMO.
    maybe he just need a memo or something.

    Parent
    Really OT (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:34:11 AM EST
    But if you feel that calling someone a racist is analogous to someone calling someone a muslim, you are not so far from NEWT.

    Parent
    simply comparing (none / 0) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:39:10 AM EST
    the tactics

    Parent
    Oh Right... (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:46:37 AM EST
    I guess that was what Newt was doing too...  It is not right, to hijack this issue with a loaded issue about how mean Obama was to Hillary, imo.

    Parent
    Pretty BS from you (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:50:24 AM EST
    The POINT is that politically speaking, the allegations are both damaging.

    I've been writing about this all morning and really find it hard to believe you misunderstood the point.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:55:07 AM EST
    Well then we should revisit the whole primary.... Red meat on that will eclipse any discussion about Muslims being equivalent to criminals.

    Oh, and I have not gotten caught up on all your posts.... started from the newest posts,

    Note to self: next time from the earlier and older posts...

    Parent

    In context (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:59:12 AM EST
    I am pretty sure Capt howdy, who has been your cohort in fighting with folks who the two of you view as too critical of Obama (based in your minds that they want to refight the primaries), is not relitigating the primaries.

    That, it seems to me, springs from you.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:06:22 PM EST
    Actually Capt Howdy has not been my cohort on this issue, milquetoast at best, imo. He does have a touch of islamophobia himself, imo. and I thought his comment was reflective of that.

    Parent
    He's got religion-phobia (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:13:01 PM EST
    Something I also suffer from.

    I oppose the Mosque AND the Greek Orthodox Church and any Jewish temple you want to propose too.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:22:51 PM EST
    Not how I have followed it... In any case, I still believe calling someone a racist and calling someone a Muslim, should bear a distinction, particularly given the topic. The equivalent topic, were they analogous, would be:

    Would it matter if Hillary was a Racist.

    but you are entitled to your view, and the comfort that you share the same views about the issue.

    Parent

    actually the point (none / 0) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:25:29 PM EST
    is more that they are both equally ridiculous

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:32:26 PM EST
    Well many things are equally ridiculous....  but being a Muslim as President does not matter, being a Racist as President does matter.

    The distinction goes to the heart of the Park51 rhetoric. Being a Muslim does not matter, being a terrorist does matter. The two are not analogous, yet many Americans perceive no difference between terrorist and Muslim. The Politicians are pandering to the islamophobic bigotry and flaming it in order to get votes.

    Parent

    its true (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:14:05 PM EST
    I draw Mohammed almost daily

    Parent
    Capt Howdy has a touch of islamophobia? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:14:15 PM EST
    Really?

    Parent
    BDT is totally right (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:19:37 PM EST
    I am an equal opportunity religiophobic.

    but yes the burkas and beatings and stonings and beheadings and destruction of priceless art treasures do not help.

    Parent

    I've never known what to do with religion (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:26:34 PM EST
    My vocal grandfather always told me that religion was for the weak minded and challenged me to find myself when I was a kid.  I seem to be wired though for the need of a faith and the only one that fits for me is Buddhism, but my grandfather would probably still tell me I'm weak minded :)  He never asked me though what my religious beliefs were though when I became an adult.  It wasn't important.  I was leading a healthy functioning life, he was happy with that....nuff said I guess.

    Parent
    you are lucky to have him (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:35:38 PM EST
    I had a wicked old grandfather also.  he died when I was very young but I remember hanging out with him, I guess he was baby sitting, and he would encourage me to draw women with larger and larger breasts.  I miss him.

    also my father, worthless piece if sh!t that he was, did at least one good thing in his life and that was to not allow my mother to take us to church.  I really think that saved me.  I had nothing to unlearn.  but not any of my siblings.  they are I think even more "evangelical" because of the experience it seems.

    other than that my family is a wasteland of faith.

    Parent

    I went to church (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by CST on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:01:50 PM EST
    once as a kid, just to see what it was like.

    But it was certainly my own idea as no one would ever have suggested it to me.  I wasn't impressed - I only go now if I have to (weddings, funerals, etc...)

    Parent

    lol (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:36:34 PM EST
    Well no wonder your family told you to keep your mouth shut about religion, because they also told you it was a load of bunk.

    Self preservation seems the rule here, as telling a bunch of holy rollers that they are FOS would not make you popular.

    And, excuse me, if you were quoting an upper class principal: never speak about Religion or Politics in polite company.

    The upper class usually stabs "the other" in the back discretely, during polite conversation.

    Parent

    Religion IS a load of bunk though (none / 0) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:50:12 PM EST
    Your argument about my family is incorrect because my Grandmother was Lutheran and so was much of my German family and I attended bible school every summer whether I was in the city or out on the ranch.  That was why I was so surprised to find out my Great Grandmother was Jewish.  My whole religion practicing family (about half of them) though never asked anyone what their faith was....off limits question and discussion.  And any family member not wanting to attend services or practice was no big deal either.  I'd be in huge trouble blatantly asking something so personal of anyone though.  That is volunteered info that your best friend tells you.  I brought up my grandfather because for me he was pivotal in my analyzing faith and religion and understanding that organized religion is about power and control for the leaders.  He was an incredibly intelligent man, died a self made millionaire too and was the person who taught me more about how our economy functions than any college course I ever took.

    Parent
    As it should be (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by star on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:20:26 PM EST
    Religion should remain a personal issue. Both believers and non-believers are very strong in where they stand and each others opinions should be respected by all. it is best not to bring it up as much as possible.
     It should NOT be any ones business to tell you how/when/if at all/how many times you should pray(or not). Each unto whatever works for them.. sometimes it might be religion ,sometimes not.

    Parent
    I completely (none / 0) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:22:42 PM EST
    agree.  that it has become a part of "public life" in this country in IMO hugely destructive to both faith and life.


    Parent
    We let the Right do that though (none / 0) (#107)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 11:23:06 AM EST
    with all their self righteous Christian bull$hit.  All these family values people getting caught coloring outside the "family values" lines are pathetic too.  Faith is very personal.  Life is often extremely difficult, horrible things happen to us that we grapple to understand, and then a UFO shows up when you are trying to relax on the front porch :)

    Parent
    Nice Gift (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:54:44 PM EST
    I had one of those myself... but liberalism was mainstream in my family...  

    Parent
    not in mine.. (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:46:15 PM EST
    I grew up hearing about how Bobby Kennedy, Abbie Hoffman and Tim Leary needed to be lined up and hung by the balls..

    And now the old man is more radical than I am. Which is a beautiful mystery which passeth all understanding..:)

    Parent

    Last I knew (none / 0) (#53)
    by hookfan on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:22:32 PM EST
    Buddhism was a religion.
      Though, to be fair, I shouldn't tease the Tigress.I'm sure you make some distinction. . .

    Parent
    I thought it was understood (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:11:35 PM EST
    I seemingly can't live without some form of bunk in my life, but I can be on "my path" without belonging to anything "organized".  If there is no God in the practice is that a religion though?  Cuz we do have Atheist Buddhists.  I would call myself an Agnostic Buddhist.  I can't let completely go of an omnipotent being, but if there is one I have no idea what it is....I cannot even fathom what it could be :)

    Parent
    Believe nothing, (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:21:23 PM EST
    no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.       ~ Buddha

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#78)
    by hookfan on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:32:59 PM EST
    you prefer your disorganized bunk over organized bunk. Lol. I can't fault you. . .
      And yes Buddhism is a religion, even though it most likely is non- theistic. Atheism, imo, isn't a religion either-- merely tells you what it's not, or has no use for. Atheists can be nihilists, existentialists, communists, buddhists, humanists, Scientific positivists, etc.
      Know what I like about Buddhists? You can be Buddhist (especially zen so I understand) and think Buddha was full of bunk and every word in the texts they follow was made up by someone else and it doesn't matter! Can't say I care much for being wapped with a stick if I fall asleep while meditating, or for many Buddhists view of women though. . .

    Parent
    The view of some Buddhists when it comes (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:08:18 PM EST
    to women is something I can ignore and it is fine, the Pope doesn't even get mad at me.  I guess you haven't heard the latest news though,  some are predicting (even our current Dalai Lama) that the next Dalai Lama will be a woman.  Buddhists are fearless about evolving, that's one of the things I love about em.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#95)
    by hookfan on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:15:46 PM EST
    I'm aware of that (as well as what China has done to the one who was announced to be the new Dalai Lama). But Tibetan Buddhism is not all of Buddhism. I applaud their effort though. . .

    Parent
    How about (none / 0) (#125)
    by hookfan on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:52:44 PM EST
    the use of slave labor in the Buddhist history in India? That overlooked too?

    Parent
    true (none / 0) (#58)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:40:10 PM EST
    but definitely separate Deism

    Parent
    rather (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:42:18 PM EST
    from Deism

    Parent
    As I recall, you are partial to Garuda. (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:43:19 PM EST


    Parent
    I have tons of religious (none / 0) (#41)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:48:54 PM EST
    art and artifacts.  Garuda is just the largest and most notable.  I spend hours cruising eBay and other parts other places looking for the stuff.

    I am endlessly fascinated by religion and its hold on people and also totally repelled by it.  its always amazed me that it is not only responsible for some of the most amazing works of art and music but also responsible for the most horrific barbarity in the history of civilization.

    never been able to decide if the one balances out the other.  but I am leaning no.

    Parent

    Your description omits the charitable (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by oculus on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:36:39 PM EST
    efforts though, which are, in many cases, considerable.  For example, I've read the first responders to the flood crisis in Pakistan have been religious groups.

    Parent
    undeniable (none / 0) (#83)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:42:23 PM EST
    and central to the civil rights movement.

    as I said.  on the one hand, on the other hand.

    Parent

    I know. Just pointing out the missing hand. (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:57:56 PM EST


    Parent
    It is fascinating (none / 0) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:55:28 PM EST
    I bought many items on ebay when China was sadly unloading Tibet years back.  My husband doesn't know what he is.  I think he's mostly a pagan :)  When he was growing up though some people accused him of being a Satan worshipper...poor kid.  I sent him a few Tibetan items when he was in Iraq.  They are his only good luck charms and they stay packed in his deployment stuff so I guess they are only for deployment :)

    Parent
    How many Muslim women in the US (none / 0) (#61)
    by hookfan on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:58:25 PM EST
    wear a burkha? It's a serious question, and I've looked but haven't found stats for US.
       In France there is a population of 5 million Muslims, but as of 2009 only 2000 women wore Burkhas. Wow. Really high percentage. Should provide lots of ammo for your "phobia".
      Of course stonings and beheadings are even rarer in the US. But don't let that stop you. Gotta keep that prejudice going somehow.
       On your basis one could justify being homophobic.There are some who are pedophiliacs. No more percentage wise than in the heterosexual population. But hey, what's good for the goose is good for the gander as it were. . .

    Parent
    as far as (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:03:11 PM EST
    how many women wear the burka.  I used to see them almost every day when I lived in Boston.


    Parent
    what? (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by CST on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:14:05 PM EST
    I think you're thinking headscarf

    I'm not sure I've ever seen a burka in real life.

    Parent

    nope. (none / 0) (#69)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:19:24 PM EST
    full body cover.
    this was in the 90s


    Parent
    face too? (none / 0) (#84)
    by CST on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:45:20 PM EST
    what part of town was this in?  I'm not doubting you just curious.  I was decidedly not in the Muslim section of town.  My hunch is a lot of them are more well off and are probably out in the suburbs.

    Parent
    Ok (none / 0) (#70)
    by hookfan on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:19:25 PM EST
    but how many in Boston didn't wear it? See, you're smearing the whole by the behavior of a few-- classic prejudice and bigotry.
      And the fact that art is not being destroyed here just supports the argument that you're being unfairly bigoted. It's not a red herring.
      Besides, an argument can be made that it's the lack of education and extremist fundamentalism(which wahabbi supports in the case of women, but the overwhelming majority of muslims throughout the world do not) that promotes those destructive behaviors.
       The same argument applies to Christian Fundamentalism. The overwhelming majority in Christendom are opposed to their beliefs and practices. It's prejudice to reject the whole on the basis of the behavior of a few.
       If not, then let's reject the homosexuals because I'm certain I can find a case where a homosexual is also a pedophile.

    Parent
    Numbers going up (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by star on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:31:45 PM EST
    I do not have an official esitmate,but being in the muslim community, the burkha consciousness is on the rise (unfortunately). More youngsters are being nudged to adopt Burkha by parents in our community as a way to ward off corrupting western culture.
    I know many muslim women from India, who never wore one while growing up in India, but have started wearing one (at least a hijab) in the last few yrs after coming to USA.
    There is a constant effort to prove to PURE muslims from arab countries that mixed cultures like in India or USA has not corrupted them.
    My mother-in-law who is a muslim brought it to my notice during her visit from India that there seems more burkha clad muslims here than in India!!!

    Parent
    please do not confuse (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by CST on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:34:47 PM EST
    the hijab with the burka.  They are very different things.

    Parent
    I do know (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by star on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:50:27 PM EST
    the difference. a good many of my in-laws wear Burkha and very many of my friends here wear Hijab.

    in fact my closest friend has "adopted" Hijab recently per compulsion from her husband and in-laws. she has to go to work with the thing on and she is not really happy about it. but it was becoming a point of contention among all at home and she is a practicing muslim who decided to go with the flow.
    Her husband and kids go to beaches and water parks with us, but not her anymore :(  

    Parent

    sigh.. (none / 0) (#89)
    by CST on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:56:46 PM EST
    "Her husband and kids go to beaches and water parks with us, but not her anymore"

    I do not get religion.

    My sister wears the Hijab now too.  The key difference being that her husband (who's Muslim) and her family (who's not) would all prefer if she didn't.  Being a relative of me, sometimes I think that's half the reason she does it...

    Parent

    talking about (none / 0) (#82)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:40:50 PM EST
    this.  I lived in the west end and worked on Newbury St.  I would see them almost every day on the street and in the park.

    Parent
    Sure the number is going up (none / 0) (#133)
    by hookfan on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 07:05:14 PM EST
    but what is the percentage compared with the growth of all Islam? Bassam Tibi is recognized as one of the World's experts on Islam and Islamist fundamentalism. He makes the distinction between Islam as a whole with western/modern tendencies toward democracy (estimated about 80% of world wide Islam) and Worldview conservative Islamists (about 20% of all Islam). But the distinction doesn't stop there as most worldview Islamists who wish to follow more traditional or fundamentalist aspects of Islam (including wearing the Burkha and separation from other aspects of westernized culture) reject violence and terrorism as a productive method to achieve their religious goals. His best approximation of the percentage of fundamentalist Islamists (admittedly only a rough guestimate) is 1-2% of the fundamentalist group.
       The World Press Review did a write up titled "The Intellectual Fathers of Fundamentalism"(see World Press Review, Jan. 2002, vol 49,no 1) that adds further information

    Parent
    that should read (none / 0) (#134)
    by hookfan on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 07:09:34 PM EST
    Fundamentalist Islamists that have been radicalized and agree with the pursuit of violence and terrorist activities. . .

    Parent
    they dont get to (none / 0) (#62)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:02:15 PM EST
    destroy much priceless art work in the US either.

    nice red herring.

    truly pathetic grasping.

    Parent

    What's pathetic (none / 0) (#87)
    by hookfan on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:53:39 PM EST
    is your prejudice.

    Parent
    Please, come to Fort Rucker today (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:13:01 PM EST
    I'll show you at least 20 over the course of the day.  

    Parent
    Also, practicing Wahhabists (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:26:48 PM EST
    from Saudi Arabia are so racist about Blacks it isn't even funny.  Last year I had an experience I will never forget.  I was shopping in the PX and the power went out.  It was pitch black inside, and the workers were running around with flashlights asking us all to please leave.  A man was trying to enter though and he was dressed in traditional Wahhabi male garb.  The manager of our PX at the time was female and she was Black, she stopped him and told him that he could not enter.  I have never seen so much hate on a person's face before being told what he could and could not do by someone who was a woman and Black.  He even attempted to defy her and walk in anyhow, then he demanded to know when he would be able to enter but she couldn't predict when the power would come back on again.  I thought we were going to have to call the police.  He was making absolutely no sense though.  To me, he was only furious because someone who would be little better than dog back home was telling him what he could and could not do.

    Parent
    Black or a woman? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Yman on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:05:44 PM EST
    Do you think it had more to do with the fact that she was Black, or because she was a woman telling him what to do?

    Guess there's no way to know, absent some kind of comment by him at the time ...

    Parent

    Both (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by star on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:13:27 PM EST
    Are pretty low down in the scheme of things for most Arabs. I stayed in Dubai(most modern of middle eastern countries) last summer with my sister for a month and I was shocked by overt racism. even for things like being taken care of in a shop to getting seated in a restaurant the skin color is a criteria.

     

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#98)
    by CST on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:20:50 PM EST
    for what it's worth, I had a similar experience in upstate new york.

    "I was shocked by overt racism. even for things like being taken care of in a shop to getting seated in a restaurant the skin color is a criteria."

    Not to mention a rather shocking conversation with a woman there who told my (black) friend she was concerned Obama was a "n*ggerlover".  Which a) takes some serious chutzpa, and b) doesn't really make sense...

    Parent

    Good grief. (none / 0) (#119)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:06:46 PM EST
    I though elderly southerners were the only ones that talked like that. I guess not.

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#93)
    by hookfan on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:09:35 PM EST
    you are rejecting all of Islam because you've seen some (maybe even many) women wear Burkhas or men perform destructive acts? Really Tracy?
       Should I reject all Buddhists because I've seen some of them steal? Or because (especially in Japan) some sneer at women considering them inferior?
      Gads. This whole discussion involving many of the left's prejudices (call it phobia if you want too) is really enlightening. Shockingly so.
       Guess, we can all have our pet prejudices now and it's ok.

    Parent
    Islam condones women (none / 0) (#106)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 11:12:40 AM EST
    being treated like second class citizens and even cattle, and to a very extreme degree.  If Muslims don't follow such practices or condone such practices what is my beef with them?  I'm a feminist first though above all else and I'm not here to give Islam a pass simply because it is the current cool faith for lefties to give a pass to.  I've always been a much deeper person than that.

    Parent
    Islam Does Nothing of the Sort (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 11:34:26 AM EST
    It is cultural.

    Would you say that sexism, and racism, in the US is due to the US constitution?

    Parent

    no (none / 0) (#109)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 11:44:42 AM EST
    the bible

    Parent
    Not A Surprising Answer From You (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 11:56:19 AM EST
    But you are entitled to stupid, just as Fred Phelps is.

    Parent
    you are not going to make me (none / 0) (#111)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 11:58:16 AM EST
    go a dig up all the bible quotes used to justify slavery and subjugate women are you?

    Parent
    I thought (none / 0) (#112)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:09:33 PM EST
    not

    Parent
    Go For It (none / 0) (#113)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:11:21 PM EST
    If it makes you feel more smug. It is fun to think that your prejudices are more rational, and enlightened than those of people you believe are morons.

    Parent
    the point is (none / 0) (#114)
    by Capt Howdy on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:32:46 PM EST
    sexism and racism is IN THE BOOKS.  both of them.  and probably others but those are the ones I have read.
    they justify these things.  if you dont know that you have not read them.

    that is the point we are making.

    sexism and racism has been written into the contract as long as there has been a contact.

    Parent

    As I Said: Go For It (none / 0) (#115)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:46:34 PM EST
    The color red makes people kill. It is obvious because red is the color of blood.

    Also, Steven King... and McBeth....  and of course pron is responsible for rape, and video games responsible for murder.

    Parent

    sexism and racism (none / 0) (#121)
    by hookfan on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:10:09 PM EST
    are outside the books too. Wherever there has been male hegemony there has been sexism. Consider the plight of many Native American female activists that face sexism as inhibitory to their goals. They are not "people of the book" per your assinine assumption. But there it is. . . Tell me how racist were the Quakers that helped African Americans escape through the underground  railroad. They were people of the book. Apparently some have a different contract.

    Parent
    Is it? (none / 0) (#127)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 09:58:21 PM EST
    If it makes you feel more smug. It is fun to think that your prejudices are more rational, and enlightened than those of people you believe are morons.

    If you say so ...

    Parent

    It may have started out as cultural (none / 0) (#116)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:51:54 PM EST
    but it is embedded in the practicing of the faith now and is preached in the Mosques.  If they clean up their act, why would I have a reason to complain.  I'm not playing silly games though where I defend the killing and maiming of women though on ancient history.  Today is the day I can affect and it is the day I live in.  Today's Islam abuses women.

    Parent
    And I'm not even bringing up (none / 0) (#117)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:53:22 PM EST
    Muhammad's grade school wife

    Parent
    Cave Man Mentality (none / 0) (#118)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:57:17 PM EST
    Also a cultural relic, has also persisted. And it is obviously quite virulent, as it occludes thinking in some of the brighter members of our contemporary culture... lol

    Parent
    Some in today's Islam (none / 0) (#123)
    by hookfan on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:25:39 PM EST
    that's true. certainly not all. And people use all kinds of excuses to abuse others. Your prejudice is showing, rather glaringly. Islam abuses no one.
       People following cultural traditions, using a self serving interpretation of Islamic or Christian Texts, abuse people, and kill people who do not follow the same even fellow muslims or Christians who do not agree.
       Women in those cultures (and ours) were abused before those texts, and are abused by others whom are non-Islamic as well.

    Parent
    oh and (none / 0) (#129)
    by Capt Howdy on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 08:57:51 AM EST
    its "cultural"?  are you serious?
    what would you suppose the "culture" is based on.

    lol, as you like to say.

    Parent

    Probably Male hegemony (none / 0) (#131)
    by hookfan on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 02:00:08 PM EST
    which occurred long before the Quran, or the Bible (both Old Testament and New) were written in the cultures in which those books were imbedded. What do you think-- that the books of the Bible occurred in one Divine Turd dump at one time? What do you think the Greek, or Jewish, or Roman cultures were before those books occurred? All of them practiced male hegemony.
       Gads,the German and Anglo-Saxon cultures were male dominant before the occurrence of the Bible and carried on throughout. Their conversion to Christianity didn't change that-- only reinforced it. Those cultural biases have imported to here. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
       Your fundamentalist understanding of Biblical development and function within the cultures in which it has occurred and utilized is extremely limited and ignorant. I pity you.

    Parent
    pity this (none / 0) (#135)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 09:01:59 AM EST


    Parent
    Don't look now (none / 0) (#136)
    by hookfan on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 06:05:39 PM EST
    your immaturity is showing. Bigotry can do that to people. . .

    Parent
    Islam does not (none / 0) (#124)
    by hookfan on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:36:59 PM EST
    Certain factions within Islam certainly do. Just like Buddhism. Why do you give the sexist Chinese Buddhists or Japanese Buddhists a pass? Cattle (or Chattel?) is a good description of how they are treated often by those ensconced in some Asian cultures.

    Parent
    1,000 plus (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 05:30:08 PM EST
    years of Buddhism in Japan didn't do much to prevent barbarities like "the Rape of Nanking", the Nazi-like experiments performed on pows or, to exert enough life-affirming influence to modify in any meaningful way the age-old, hyper-militarist samurai culture..

    Parent
    So 20 per day (none / 0) (#126)
    by hookfan on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:55:28 PM EST
    when compared to conservative estimates of Islamic pop in the US of at least 2-3 million isn't very much to generalize from.

    Parent
    I'll bet because I don't think Burkas (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:15:56 PM EST
    and submissive women you can beat are okay I'm an islamophobe too.

    Parent
    Careful (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:02:19 PM EST
    that's my designated position 'round here.

    Parent
    I thought your position (none / 0) (#48)
    by CST on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:05:18 PM EST
    was that most Muslims want to put us in Burkas and force us to stone our women - in between blowing up our buildings of course.

    Parent
    Don't put words in my mouth... (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:12:17 PM EST
    That's RADICAL Muslims....other than that you be right

    Parent
    I thought they were (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:03:17 PM EST
    all radical muslims..

    After all, you've been claiming that the Cordoba center people are celebrating the acts of radical muslims.

    Parent

    I don't personally believe (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:53:19 AM EST
    he subscribes to everything Rev Wright and Bill Ayers stand for..

    And the fact that he never shot a gun or does shooters in blue collar bars doesn't mean he isn't a salt-of-the-earth, gal-of-the-people..

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:55:10 AM EST


    Parent
    And Andrew Jackson (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:05:19 PM EST
    wasn't necessarily trying to turn the capital of this proud christian nation into Sodom by bringing a Jezebel, a Whore of Babylon into the Whitehouse..

    blood sport.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#120)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:08:52 PM EST
    those don't prove anything but he isn't a salt of the earth type as shown by his actions on the economy. It's obvious in his actions and deeds that he has no use for anyone who can't further his personal ambitions.

    Parent
    kind of like (none / 0) (#29)
    by CST on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:18:41 PM EST
    he is not a Muslim "as far as I know"

    Parent
    that's the one I was trying to remember (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ruffian on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:20:08 PM EST
    In that case it is the same thing that is happening now - the Republicans and the press manufacture a controversy and all the pols get repeatedly asked about it. She was asked 2 or 3 times and said no until she seemed to think it was some kind of a trap and added 'as far as I know'.

    They need to come up with rote responses that require no thought - much like Republican talking points.

    Parent

    yes (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:20:47 PM EST
    exactly

    Parent
    Isn't it nice that religion can be the (5.00 / 4) (#13)
    by Anne on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:37:08 AM EST
    bright, shiny object of distraction to take all the focus off real issues that matter to the lives of ordinary people?

    But, maybe there are no other issues?  Is this what happens when you are so good at being the historic, accomplished, winning president who, by his historic efforts has taken absolutely every other problem out of play by the yeoman's work he has done, lo, these last 19 months?

    Iraq?  Solved - we're outta there.

    Health Care?  Solved. Pay no attention to those still-rising premiums.

    Financial Reform?  Man, did we stick it to them.
    The economy?  Hey - quit complaining, people!  We tried!

    The oil spill?  In the words of the Chick-Fil-A mascot: Eat Mor Chiken!

    Privacy rights?  We have nothing to hide.

    Transparency?  We can see clearly now, the rain is gone.

    Reproductive rights?  Ask your husband/partner/doctor/religious counselor: they can tell you the real scoop on this one.

    Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid?  Just wait til you see how we're going to fix them!

    Bet he's sorry he's done such a good job that all people can find to make an issue out of is his religion.

    [going to have lunch now - maybe that will make the snark go away - but don't count on it]

    I have no position on whether (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by observed on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:18:42 PM EST
    Ganley's illegitimate children are mixed race or not.

    Oldie but goodie from (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:20:26 PM EST
    Mass. politics years ago, from the ostensibly sainted Elliot Richardson: "I absolutely do not believe the rumors that MY OPPONENT TOOK MAFIA MONEY."  <cough>

    Parent
    Well played (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:22:19 PM EST


    Parent
    A Hail Mary? Here goes.... (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by NYShooter on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 04:45:17 PM EST
    We know how Americans like to build up someone, only to knock them down when they reach the top, right? And then, once crushed, we love to cheer on the newly resurrected hero who's "found the light." The "Comeback Kid?"

    Obama's Speech: "My fellow Americans, during the campaign there was a topic that was hotly debated;....does experience matter, or does it get trumped by judgment?" I now know the answer; Experience matters; Boy! Does experience matter!

    My "judgment" told me that, like in the movies where the authorities get a convicted hacker to join the good guys in the pursuit of the criminals, that keeping the economic advisors who engineered the mess we find ourselves in would be the right people to find a way out of the mess. Boy! Was I wrong!

    And I also know that I've become famous for giving one great speech after another, but this one will really be "The Greatest Speech Evah,"  because it will short, sweet, and to the point: Geithner, Summers, and Goolsbee are OUT! ...Krugman, Reich, and Warren are IN!

    Thank you, good night, and God Bless America.

    the lie is relevant (1.00 / 0) (#100)
    by diogenes on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:52:16 PM EST
    If he is honest and says that he is agnostic, muslim, or christian then it's irrelevant.  If he lies about it then the pattern of lying IS relevant.

    What denomination is Tom Ganley? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:17:26 AM EST
    I heard that he belongs to a church that practices a false doctrine.  Has he prayed yet today?  How many times a day does he in general pray?  These are a few things I'm starting to need to know.

    He Is Jewish (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:32:29 AM EST
    God told it to me in a dream.

    Yes, but (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by MO Blue on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:36:28 AM EST
    is he "The One." :-)

    Parent
    I was thinking it was about time (none / 0) (#11)
    by nycstray on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 11:34:28 AM EST
    for him to start practicing all the different religions. 1 a month perhaps?

    Parent
    Relevant: No, Chip in the Politics Game: Yes (none / 0) (#23)
    by vicndabx on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:06:23 PM EST


    Okay... it basically time for Obama and his (none / 0) (#24)
    by tigercourse on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:07:31 PM EST
    team to do something brilliant. I know, great idea. I don't know what that brilliant thing is but we need a hail mary come to jesus 11th hour... something.

    He has to change who he's been for the last 20  odd years and give a real barn burner of a speech or something, get involved. Get up there and pound the podium in that name of populism. Maybe if he rails against something (joblessness, crazy conservative positions, inane religious talk in the face of this nation's crumbling infrastructure and soul) and actually provides some hint of a way forward he can reassure some independents and spark a fire under a few disinterested Democrats.

    Great idea (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by MO Blue on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 12:24:36 PM EST
    Another greatest speech evah from Obama.

    Parent
    It's apparently what he does best. (none / 0) (#45)
    by tigercourse on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:00:58 PM EST


    Parent
    It is all he does...talk talk lecture lecture (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:07:24 PM EST
    Well, he was a teacher....

    Parent
    yeah (none / 0) (#55)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:24:33 PM EST
    and who needs them when we've already got the Bible and talk radio?

    Parent
    Check his polls. (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:26:29 PM EST
    hahahahaa

    Parent
    Yeah they're (none / 0) (#101)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:56:27 PM EST
    about where Clinton and Reagan's were at the respective points in their presidencies- remind me again how the Dole and Mondale admins were Jim.

    Parent
    You're relying on sound effects today (none / 0) (#102)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:58:51 PM EST
    probably a better strategy all in all..

    Parent
    Need to add something new (none / 0) (#75)
    by MO Blue on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:25:57 PM EST
    Maybe some updated versions of "Don't Worry, Be Happy" and "Happy Days Are Here Again" being performed by world famous artists.

    Parent
    He needs to DO something. (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by PatHat on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:15:48 PM EST


    Parent
    Doesn't (none / 0) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 07:11:20 PM EST
    matter. Everybody knows he doesn't mean it when he says it.

    Parent
    A pol's religion is irrelevant to me (none / 0) (#54)
    by ruffian on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:24:20 PM EST
    I'm an equal opportunity non-believer, like Capt Howdy.

    I think pols are afraid to say it does not matter to them because it does matter to so many voters. And let's face it, religion might really  matter to the pol being asked.

    it matters in large part (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:27:36 PM EST
    because they've MADE IT matter..

    In order to maintain a viable coalition..

    Despite what some may think, there's nothing wrong with leaders "teaching" and setting a sane example once in a while.

    They do it anyway, so they might as well start doing it right.

    Parent

    it matters in large part (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 01:27:52 PM EST
    because they've MADE IT matter..

    In order to maintain a viable coalition..

    Despite what some may think, there's nothing wrong with leaders "teaching" and setting a sane example once in a while.

    They do it anyway, so they might as well start doing it right.

    Parent

    Remember the flag lapel pin flap? (none / 0) (#81)
    by oculus on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:40:14 PM EST


    Parent
    Obama not holding his (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:50:42 PM EST
    hand directly over his heart ..and having the fingers on his other hand crossed during the pledge?

    Parent
    sound so (none / 0) (#88)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 02:55:53 PM EST
    ridiculous when you just say it like that.
    who would ever believe . . .

    which is why it worked I guess.
     

    Parent

    Which I think going to church publicly (none / 0) (#96)
    by oculus on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 03:16:28 PM EST
    and often might help.  Once he started just wearing the flag lapel pin that flap died out.

    Parent
    Check. (none / 0) (#104)
    by brodie on Fri Aug 20, 2010 at 08:06:06 PM EST
    There are still a few things presidents -- or Dem ones perhaps -- need to take care to take care of, as with the God-fearing and church-going stuff.  Particularly if'n yer name is Barack Hussein Obama.

    I'm actually surprised to learn the Obamas never chose a single church to regularly attend in D.C.  Just seems like a simple thing a smart pol takes care of quickly and quietly.  Then show up just enough to get a few photo ops and keep the wolves of the press at bay.  Easy basic stuff that requires only a few hours every few months but which pays much larger dividends in good PR.  

    Supplement it with the occasional televised sit-down God talk chat with your preferred moderate non-Rick Warren non-Franklin Graham religious leader.

    Parent

    I think it's a perfectly decent response (none / 0) (#105)
    by Demi Moaned on Sat Aug 21, 2010 at 12:11:14 AM EST
    People were all over Hillary Clinton in the primary wars for saying something similar. But the premise of the response seems to be:
    Why are you asking me about his religiion? What do I know about it that you don't?

    Which seems rather to be refusing to play a game than the reverse.

    I thought (none / 0) (#128)
    by efm on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 01:51:32 AM EST
    I was missing something about this also.  Maybe because he's a republican then he must have some kind of ulterior motive behind not caring what religious views Obama has, which i agree that it really doesn't matter.

    Parent
    A politician's religious beliefs (none / 0) (#130)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 01:27:12 PM EST
    become important to me when they make decisions based on, and citing, their good book of behavior and trying to create laws that force me to adopt those behaviors in my own life.

    This country is supposed to be one where we have freedom of religion, and if our President imposes Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or any other religious laws on all of us, we lose.

    I don't personally think Obama is committed strongly to any religious belief. And, that is a positive for our leader.

    Is President Obama's Denomination Relevant? | 136 comments (136 topical)

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