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Monday Night TV and Open Thread

I still haven't seen the news today, but it's time for the finale of The Bachelorette. I'm going offline so I don't read the ending before it airs here. If you want spoilers, I have them galore over at Popleft. (Don't read if you don't want to know the likely ending.) I will say that Mike Fleiss & Co. did a masterful job this season of preventing anyone from being completely certain, despite the plentiful spoilers, until this weekend.

Update: Ali made a great choice, they seem really happy. I liked her better tonight than I did all season.

Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    On the front page of Dailykos two diaries (none / 0) (#1)
    by tigercourse on Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 08:40:07 PM EST
    have been recommended to high heaven. One is partly about how much the author doesn't care about the people of Afghanistan. The other is about how it's wrong to oppose the Mosque at ground zero.

    I find this absurd. Am I really that out of touch now with liberals/progressives or whatever? Was I mistaken when I started considering myself a liberal or has liberalism changed? I value humanity a hell of alot more then houses of worship. How can liberals be honestly arguing that we're wrong to want to impose our values on the freaking Taliban (a paraphrase of an actual post)?

    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#2)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 08:51:25 PM EST
    Haven't seen the dkos, but I will have a look.

    Two things that are incorrect are, the building is not on ground zero, and it is not a mosque.

    It is a good couple of blocks away, and built on the site of Sym's and Burlington Coat Factory.

    It is going to be a community center, not a Mosque.

    Parent

    Whatever it is, the posters are still acting like (none / 0) (#3)
    by tigercourse on Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 10:03:09 PM EST
    it's an affront to human decency that some people oppose it or are uncomfortable with it, yet at the same time (for the most part) support a "the hell with the them" argument about the very real people of Afghanistan.

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 11:29:36 PM EST
    One thing is clear, you really despise dkos and will stoop to any level to malign the site and it commenters, and recommenders.

    The community center is a good thing, it is my neighborhood, and I approve. The fact that your friend Palin, who could give a sh*t about NYC, has turned this issue into Wingnut central politics is disgusting. It is none of her business. As much as I am not fond of Bloomberg his comment puts all the hoopla in perspective:

    "Sarah Palin has a right to her opinions, but I could not disagree more...Everything the United States stands for and New York stands for is tolerance and openness."

    link:

    Bloomberg said the $100 million mosque and community center is " a great message for the world that, unlike in other places where they might actually ban people from wearing burquas or building a building, that's not what America was founded on nor is it what America should become."....

    "I think our young men and women overseas are fighting for exactly this," Bloomberg said. "For the right of people to practice their religion and for government to not pick and choose which religions they support, which religions they don't."

    Bloomberg said Monday morning that the city has never vetted religious organizations and isn't about to start now.

    link

    And as far as the piece about the Afghanistan war, I read it twice, and nowhere is there any indication that the blogger has a "hell with them" attitude or argument about the people of Afghanistan.

    Talk about gratuitous slams....  you may want to re-read the pieces, and cut down on the kool aid.

    Parent

    So, what level did I stoop to to malign (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by tigercourse on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:31:27 AM EST
    Dailykos. I quoted from the extremely popular diary? Boy, I really sunk to a new low.

    Parent
    Whatever You Say (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:37:59 AM EST
    Considering that you couldn't bring yourself to link to anything dkos, which is a statement in itself, I went to the site, and found the first two articles by Laurence Lewis.

    One was about the NYC downtown community center and one was about the endless Afghanistan war.

    In neither piece were any of the quotes you mention.

    Parent

    Fugetaboutit :) Said your peace/peice (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:38:38 AM EST
    I heard you.  Food for thought.

    You'll be here all night trying to comprehend how much and how badly and on which levels of the inferno you suck in squeaky's mind.  In the grand scheme of a real life....not that important :)

    Parent

    Ah yes (none / 0) (#6)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 11:41:53 PM EST
    construct a mosque on the site of the radical Muslim's greatest success... name it after a mosque that celebrated the largest success in Europe during the expansion of Islam by the sword..

    And of course the Left immediately says, "No problem."

    Yes. There is a problem. It is an insult to all Americans. The purpose of it is to see just how far extremist Muslims can push us using the PC excuse of openness and diversity.

    There are dozens of places that a Mosque can be constructed in NYC. This is not one of them.

    Parent

    Didn't realize an old retail site (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by nycstray on Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 11:49:13 PM EST
    was the site of "the radical Muslim's greatest success".

    Perhaps you should move to the 'hood and make your voice heard as part of the community there . . .

    Parent

    It is America's business (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:03:09 AM EST
    unless you think NYC should leave the Union.

    lol at your weak excuse for being unwilling to stand up and against this.

    Parent

    MYOB (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by squeaky on Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 11:55:41 PM EST
    First off you are either lying or misinformed about the project, more than likely the former.

    And this has nothing to do with left or right politics, it has to do with a community center, and it is not your community by a longshot.

    It is not an insult to any Americans, although, your bigoted remarks are clearly insults to all Americans who stand for the values which our country is built on.

    Your feeble attempt to offer advice as to where a community center should be placed should be directed to your neighborhood, not mine.

    Parent

    She wrote, "let them blast each other to (none / 0) (#12)
    by tigercourse on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:26:07 AM EST
    Hell and let the Devil sort 'em out." You should have read it a third time I guess.


    Parent
    She also wrote, "Those who are too weak, (none / 0) (#13)
    by tigercourse on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:29:45 AM EST
    or two self-involved, to take a stand on their own behalf, no longer receive my sympathy."


    Parent
    Not for nothin'... (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 08:13:29 AM EST
    sounds about right to me, if a bit blunt.

    If the Afghan people don't wanna live under the Taliban, it is they who need to do something about it...we certainly shouldn't be there killin' 'em to save 'em from the Taliban.  If anything, our occupation is in service to the Taliban...nothing saves a corrupt s.o.b.-filled government than a foreign occupier to rally around.

    Parent

    Lots of large feelings out there (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 08:44:34 AM EST
    I think they all need to be heard.  Nobody needs to sit down and shut up.  On the New York issue though, I can't tell New Yorkers how to feel or tell them how low they are when it comes to them dealing with what they are dealing with.  There's a lot of trauma there. I support them to work this out and acknowledge they aren't stupid people.

    Parent
    I have great patience... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 08:53:09 AM EST
    for the objections by those who lost loved ones in the tragedy...I disagree completely, but understand.  

    It's the outside agitator islamo-phobes I wish would mind their beeswax...though I support their inalienbale right to be loudmouth haters.  

    Parent

    I hear ya (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 09:34:28 AM EST
    And if anyone wants to weed through the agitators and pick out those and expose those that are only about Islamophobia and have no skin in the game, I'm all for that.

    The military has to deal with a lot of Islamophobia right now.  I can relate.  And I don't expect a Mosque being built at Fort Hood for awhile because even the military understands trauma.  We will put them on other posts though most likely where we have a larger Muslim community.  Fort Rucker has that with all the people from all over the world in and out of here.  And it is hard to get sentimental about military real estate, you are in there and outta there and it is usually ugly...but functional :)  I find that I can be sentimental and affected by people and special human events.  Military real estate cannot be special though in a memory inspiring way, specialness it is minimally tolerated.  You are not a unique and beautiful snowflake until off duty hours and good luck with that :)

    Parent

    9-0 vote this morning (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by waldenpond on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 09:31:57 AM EST
    NY commission says 'yeah'.  No historic standing, old building can be torn down.  That was the last step to proceeding with the project.

    Parent
    Appeals can be made... (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:08:20 AM EST
    this thing ain't over yet...this is NYC-level bueracracy we're talkin' about here.

    Parent
    Nah (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:17:13 AM EST
    This is going to happen. At this point there would be a civil rights lawsuit if it were to be blocked.

    Besides it has the blessing of the Mayor, local Reps, and City Council members, both local and city wide.

    The $100mil spent to build, the jobs created and community value trumps any bedwetter WATB who would have the power to block it, imo.

    Parent

    Hope you're right... (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:29:37 AM EST
    but with the losers running under Brand R for Governor, if any stink can still be raised to stop or delay the project, they will raise it...same goes for all-star bedwetter Peter King.

    Parent
    Cuomo Is For It (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:33:50 AM EST
    And, loser that he is, he is going to be the next NY Gov.

    Parent
    Yes he will... (none / 0) (#39)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:52:09 AM EST
    this is one of the few cards his opponents can play to try and avoid the inevitable defeat...as much as we hate to admit it, the islamophobia plays well in many circles in NY, especially outside the boroughs.  Lazio and that other dude know this...they might pair up with King to lead the next level of opposition to the project.

    I'm no Cuomo fan but he's been saying all the right things on this issue...props where it is due.

    Parent

    Oh, Yeah (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 11:12:20 AM EST
    King has been against NYC for as long as I can remember, a profitable position for him. This is not his district, and he has no jurisdiction over this project.

    In a way he is typical of the WATBs. Every time he disses NYC, and disses the downtown community center project, his GBOP racist and bigoted cashflow picks up.

    Considering that NYC is carrying the entire state, using less resources and delivering more tax money per capita than the rest of the state, he really should STFU.

    It is a long story:

    Issues of immigration and race are also factors. Historically, upstaters have tended to be white, native-born, and Protestant; New York City residents are often descendents of immigrants, Jewish and Catholic. An upstate delegate to the 1894 Constitutional convention called New York City "a sewer of ignorance and corruption flowing in from foreign lands." Today, the city is home to over 80 percent of the states African-Americans and Jews, and over 90 percent of its Spanish-speaking and Asian population....

    George Washington Plunkitt, a turn of the century Tammany Hall district lea der once railed, "in this state the Republican government makes no pretense at all. It says right out in the open: `New York is a nice, big, fat goose. Come along with your carving knives and have a slice.'"...

    According to a recent study that tracked job growth from 1995-1999, New York has the second highest average wage among all states. That growth, however, has been primarily concentrated in the downstate region. If upstate was a separate state, its job growth for the 1995-99 period would have ranked second to last among all states....

    Upstate areas receive $1.41 in state aid for every tax dollar contributed, while New York City breaks even, the report states. Likewise, the upstate area, with the exception of Rochester County, receives much more than their share of state spending.

    link

    Parent

    Padres are up 5 to zip over the Dodgers (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 02, 2010 at 10:33:10 PM EST
    in L.A., bottom of the 4th.  Dodgers almost had a run but Matt Kemp wasn't running to home all that fast and runner en route to 3rd was tagged for 3rd out before Kemp touched home plate.  Sweet.  

    WTF? (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:14:14 AM EST
    America's business? How do you figure that? This is being built on private property, with private money. Who are you to interfere with NYC business.

    The project has the blessings of my community board, Mayor Bloomberg, and other prominent members of my community. We do not need your stinking approval.

    Cordoba House is envisioned as a non-profit cultural and community center that will serve the Lower Manhattan neighborhood, the New York public, and visitors from around the world. Plans for the 13-story building located at 51 Park Place, just west of Church Street, include a wide range of amenities that will improve the quality of life in the neighborhood while respecting the sanctity of the surrounding area; these plans include: a Sept. 11 memorial and meditation room, cultural amenities including exhibitions, education programs, a 500-seat auditorium, a library and art studios, a Muslim prayer space, fitness facilities (a swimming pool, gym, and basketball court), a restaurant and culinary school, and childcare services.

    Once open, the center is expected to create over 150 full-time and over 500 part-time jobs, in addition to many trade and construction jobs.

    Many of New York's most prominent civic and faith leaders have endorsed the project, including: Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer, Community 1 Chairperson Julie Menin, Financial District Chair Edward Sheffe, Congressman Jerry Nadler, New York City Comptroller John Liu, City Councilmember Margaret Chin, City Councilmember Robert Jackson, District Leader Paul Newell, District Director Robert Gottheim, State Senator Daniel Squadron, Canon Anne Malonee of Trinity Church, and September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows.



    A culinary school?! (none / 0) (#17)
    by nycstray on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:41:34 AM EST
    Thumbs up!  :) Another pool will be nice also. The one in my old 'hood is being redone and will also be an ice rink in the winter. {sigh} Figures it would happen after I left.

    Sounds like a nice space you're getting there.

    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:53:02 AM EST
    Although, there is a closer site to me, a huge empty lot along the west side hwy, complete river views....  They are going to combine three garbage plants, 17 stories, salt and fuel storage.

    The community has been up in arms about it for a couple of years... to no avail.

    Maybe we can get the garbage plant moved downtown and the community center on the empty lot....

    That should make America happy... and having a pool and cooking classes closer would be nice for me...

    Parent

    Oh gawd . . . (none / 0) (#19)
    by nycstray on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 01:11:22 AM EST
    what would Palin say about a garbage plant at Ground Zero?! {vapors}

    I miss having cooking classes close by. Now I have to go to one of the community colleges (30-45 minutes away). Not too bad though as one has quite a good program and it's 26 bucks a credit here in CA. I think my first class will be candies, truffles and chocolate {grin} working with chocolate is a very good thing to do. I think the aroma alone is all I need to be happy :)

    Parent

    the comment you are replying to (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 01:29:44 AM EST
    was deleted for personal attacks (on you.) Please refrain from responding in kind.

    Parent
    As if.... (none / 0) (#24)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 09:09:14 AM EST
    Sheriff Schmoe Arpaio's head wasn't big enough, the Mexican cartel allegedly goes and puts a million dollar price on it.  His ego will now be too big for the tyrannical state of AZ.

    The cartel is also on a recruiting binge, offering 1k signing bonuses...leave it to the war on drugs to make organized crime one of the only industries doing well enough to offer signing bonuses for entry level workers.

    interesting little story (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 09:26:13 AM EST
    of gender double standards.  you cant make me believe in the current hysterical atmosphere if this was a man he would not be indicted for unlawful sexual conduct with a minor:

    31 Year Old Woman Indicted For Dating Teen Girls While Pretending To Be A Boy

    To make the story worse (yes, it's possible to be worse), one of the victims and her mother are furious that the grand jury in Dye's trial declined to indict her for unlawful sexual conduct with a minor, instead going for misdemeanors. It is unclear why the grand jury made this choice but it might have something to do with questions over whether the alleged victim was 15 or 16 at the time of the relationship as 16 is the age of consent in the area. The victim's mother claims they have evidence proving that the girl was 15 but that investigators refused to accept it.


    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 09:40:05 AM EST
    tricking a teenage girl into believing she was a 14 year old boy and having a relationship with her for months.

    SOunds like a good argument for sex ed or biology classes, OR,

    they did not have sex.....  

    In any case, interesting law.. tricking a teenage girl, is a crime...

    Reminds me of this crime, although a much worse punishment.

    Parent

    how do you know (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 09:46:50 AM EST
    "they did not have sex"
    there are many ways to have sex.

    Parent
    Musta been all giving... (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:05:16 AM EST
    no receiving...no wonder the girls liked her!

    Sorry, couldn't help myself.

    And yes, if it was a dude posing as a woman to chase boys the charges would be more severe, a very safe assumption Capt.

    Parent

    Oh Yeah (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:04:35 AM EST
    Even in the post Clinton world where having sex is a bj (IOW-he did not lie), it seems to me that the teen would realize that she was a woman if they had sex.

    Parent
    you sound very (none / 0) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:19:33 AM EST
    naive.  there are lots of things I can think of that she could have done - that if I was the father of one of the girls I would not be comfortable with - without revealing her own sex.

    Parent
    or do lesbians (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:19:50 AM EST
    not have sex?


    Parent
    Not Naive (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:32:48 AM EST
    And evidentially the courts did not buy the BS either....

    And a better analogy would be if she were a man and posed as a woman, iow lesbian lover to the teen.

    BTW- how do you think that the teen found out about the ruse?

    More than likely made the discovery after she was 16 by  empirical research, and not by hearsay.

    Parent

    interesting take (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 11:50:36 AM EST
    not surprisingly not shared by the family:

    Patricia Dye's true gender also surprised the friend charged with keeping track of the 16-year-old girl while the teen's mother was undergoing gallbladder surgery at Sycamore Hospital in Miamisburg.

    Dye is accused of luring the teen into a sexual relationship.

    "It's very, very disturbing. She had me fooled. I thought I was dealing with a 14-year-old boy," said the friend, Melissa Neumann of Middletown.

    On Wednesday, July 7, Dye remained in the Warren County Jail on $100,000 bond, waiting for a grand jury to consider her case. She is charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor and engaging in unlawful sex with a minor.

    The victim ran away from home June 22 -- her 16th birthday -- according to police.

    Neumann said she sent text messages urging her friend's daughter to come home.

    When police picked up the girl on June 24, she said she had not eaten in three days and had sores on her feet, Neumann said.

    After she left home, the teen and Dye were "in and out" of a room at Collie's Motel on North Main Street in Franklin that Dye shared with her parents, Springboro police Sgt. Bob Marchiny said.

    "I had no clue," said the aunt, who is not being identified by name for this story to protect the identity of the victim. "I hope to God that she never gets out."

    Dye, arrested June 30 in Franklin, had no local criminal record. No other charges have been filed, but police have said they were investigating whether there were other victims

    .

    Parent
    Gosh (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:00:52 PM EST
    The most revolting part of the story, which I missed earlier:

    via Breitbart.tv

    And Dye, living an a motel room with her parents????  

    Have to say, this story is really odd, seems that there is a lot of missing parts of the story, no pun intended...

    Glad she got off....

    And I do not think that she would have gotten it worse if she had been male considering that the crime appears to have been committed when the teen was of age.


    Parent

    ever seen (none / 0) (#44)
    by CST on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 11:57:28 AM EST
    boys don't cry?

    They deal with this situation directly.  It is possible to fool.  And it is absolutely possible for 2 women to have sex - well beyond oral - although quite frankly I think that also counts.

    Think props.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:07:16 PM EST
    Of course... my Clinton reference was gender specific, and somewhat in jest.

    Anyway, the teen must have found out that the man was a woman by reaching down her pants. And that must have happened after she was sixteen.

    Otherwise, it was consensual sex all along, and the parents, who were revolted that their daughter might be gay, are the ones who concocted the face saving ruse.

    Parent

    thats absurd (none / 0) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 12:52:07 PM EST
    did you read the story?

    Parent
    Absurd? (none / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 04:08:01 PM EST
    Why? My guess is that the parents freaked when they found out she was a woman....   I doubt that the 16 year old was in the dark. Particularly if the relationship went on for four months.

    Sounds like homophobic intervention to me.

    Parent

    Recovering From PTSD (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Tue Aug 03, 2010 at 10:56:50 AM EST
    Gina was a playful 2-year-old German shepherd when she went to Iraq as a highly trained bomb-sniffing dog with the military, conducting door-to-door searches and witnessing all sorts of noisy explosions.

    She returned home to Colorado cowering and fearful. When her handlers tried to take her into a building, she would stiffen her legs and resist. Once inside, she would tuck her tail beneath her body and slink along the floor. She would hide under furniture or in a corner to avoid people.

    rawstory

    Gotta love it..... dogs help humans recover from PTSD, and humans help dogs recover from PTSD....  sweet....