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Friday Morning Open Thread

Open Thread. I'm watching the World Cup.

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    amazing (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:18:49 AM EST
    This particular image was taken in a region of space called the Lockman hole, which allows a clear line of sight out into the distant Universe. This `hole' is located in the familiar northern constellation of Ursa Major, The Great Bear.

    The galaxies seen in this image are all in the distant Universe and appear as they did 10-12 billion years ago.

    Using the Herschel Space Observatory, scientists at the European Space Agency decided to take a peek through the Lockman Hole and found thousands of galaxies. Each dot you see is an entire galaxy containing billions of stars:


    great images of universe! (none / 0) (#73)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:51:59 PM EST
    I have a 'thing' for nebula and universes and stars and planets. Have several books - What's Out There and more. I know its probably tacky but the Horsehead nebula and the Eye of God nebula are beautiful. Space dust and dark matter.

    Parent
    So how many of you would allow your 16 year old (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:25:56 PM EST
    Go sailing around the world alone? I am just wondering. Now, a Airbus303 had to be chartered to fly 4 hours to the signal, another hour to find it and another 4 hours back. I see $$$ for that.And 4 ships are heading towards her as the mast is broken and the sail is dragging in the water. But, I was very happy she was found alive and ok.

    Now, my point is, there are enough crazy wonderful things to do without putting yourself in harms way and causing a major rescue effort. I speak of the fact that people do not need to be on or near a major enemy border (If not CIA-ha)and mountain hikers in Avalanche territory , etc. I know everyone is free to do the adventure they crave, but I think they should have to put up a big bond to pay for the rescue if something should happen. I would have been really upset if this girl had died on the high seas and especially at the parents. This is not like riding your first bike with your Dads hand on the seat. I am going to brave getting some Happy Feet. Yeah, danger in that, right?

    I don't have a problem with it... (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:40:08 PM EST
    considering how most 16 year olds are treated like near-infants, I found this story kinda refreshing.

    And of all the sh*t we spend money on, I don't think rescuing over-daring adventures is so bad.  At least make Wall St. start paying for bailout bonds first before we talk about adventurers.

    Parent

    For the record kdog (none / 0) (#134)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:49:18 PM EST
    My sixteen year old WAS near infant in attaining  every human developmental milestone that involved responsibility and accountability.  I wouldn't let my sixteen year old drive around the block unattended.  She was certain to soon be off course and getting "lost".  In her dreams though, you are her dream father :).

    Parent
    Everybody's got a different pace... (none / 0) (#146)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 06:47:38 PM EST
    I'm just a big believer in letting 'em spead their wings when their dreams say fly...risk is part of life, you miss out if avoid it at all costs.

    I give this girl here a lot of credit for even attempting the journey...she must have some serious sailing skills to get as far as she did.

    Parent

    I'm with you, DogMan (none / 0) (#145)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 06:34:36 PM EST
    me, and all my friends, used to travel the length & breadth of NYC subways when we were, oh 7-8 years old. Then when I was 14, a buddy and me went on a two week cruise in a 14 foot runabout up the Hudson River by ourselves. We traveled all the way to Canada, up through the canal system, Lake Champlain, the Richelieu river, and finally St. Lawrence seaway. It was great!

    For sure, my mother was criticized by her friends for letting us do that, but her answer was, "look, the kid swims like an eel. And what would I do if I went with them? He'd probably drown trying to save me if we got in trouble. Tell you what, you raise your children and I'll raise mine. lol

    Of course, we came from Russia, and maybe the culture was a little bit different.


    Parent

    I can relate Shooter... (none / 0) (#147)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 06:51:47 PM EST
    nothing so bold as your Canada journey...just taking my bike to all corners of Queens at an age where some kids today aren't even allowed to cross the street.  We'd just ride till mid-day and turn back to be home by supper time.

    Though if I told moms, she probably wouldn't have been too keen on our exploits...but what moms didn't know didn't hurt her:)

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:42:22 PM EST
    It's like letting your 16 year old go on Spring Break by themselves - they can't even sign for medical treatment.

    Seems to me, many around here have vociferously pointed out that 16 year-old brains are not fully developed and they do not use good judgment, so they should not be treated like adults....

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#90)
    by CST on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:30:37 PM EST
    glad you weren't my parent...

    I vaguely represent this comment - how would you feel about letting your 16 year old study abroad for a whole year?  I'm sure glad my parents did.

    Depends on the kid.  Depends on how much freedom you raise them with.  If you expose them to this stuff early and get to a point where you can trust them - travelling alone is no big deal.

    If you over-protect your kid growing up - then sure, sending them off to party alone in a foreign country might not be the best way to introduce them to freedom.  But if you raise your children to be independent, then it's not so scary after all.

    The problem with laws is they treat everyone the same regardless how mature they are.  It's not that they can't be mature, per se, although a 16 year old is not an adult - it's just that we as a society don't have the information to judge one way or the other - the way a parent does.

    Parent

    Study abroad (none / 0) (#93)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:40:02 PM EST
    Has a little more control than letting your kids go somewhere to party. There are adults who have parental rights to sign for you if you need to be admitted for medical care, and adults who are ultimately responsible for your safety.

    Yes, it's true that many 16 year olds are mature and can be trusted (I was one of them too), but as I said, many here argue the exact opposite when it comes to the death penalty, regardless of the specific case.  So, which is it?

    Parent

    not really (none / 0) (#96)
    by CST on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:46:25 PM EST
    I travelled with friends alone while i was there as well.  With my parents knowledge.

    Also, as I said, we as a society cannot be the ones to judge that maturity, and so we should err on the side of caution.  Also, being mature enough to travel alone - I don't think is the same as being an adult.  There is a gray area here.  The death penalty does not provide any gray.

    Parent

    Sure it does (none / 0) (#100)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:55:39 PM EST
    We have a bright line test - no juvenile can be put to death - even if their crime was so horrendous and so evil, and even if they were perfectly aware of what they were doing, and did it anyway.  This is because we, as a society, have said children's brains are not developed as such that they do not have the capacity to have the same judgment an adult has and therefore, they should not be held to the same standard.

    I think on a case-by-case basis, that is pure bunk.  Others may disagree.  It's exactly the same situation - some kids may be perfectly fine to travel by themselves, others may not. Some kids may be perfectly okay to make decisions about reporoduction - others may not. Some kids may have perfect judgment and are cold hearted enough to plan murders - others may not. All these things require adult judgment - it just differs on the types of judgments and the acts that follow.

    Parent

    even if i agreed (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by CST on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:01:17 PM EST
    that there is such a thing as "adult judgement" vs "not adult judgement" (and I don't as I think there is more in the middle there than you allow for) - how is there any way for us as an outsider, or juror, or judge, or whomever to know with enough certainty the mental capacity of someone that age?

    There just isn't.  We aren't their parents.  I don't think you can determine those things on hearsay and optics alone with enough certainty to put someone to death.

    That's very different from a parent knowing if their kid can be responsible for themselves.

    Parent

    I would say (none / 0) (#111)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:08:36 PM EST
    That many parents who think their kids exhibits good judgment who let them travel alone, also find out that those kids don't use good judgment -as they get injured or killed while in places like being on spring break.

    And again - minors can't authorize medical procedures (unless it's an absolute emergency and the hospital or doctor can't wait for permission).

    You obviously disagree.  Just seems like asking for a whole lot of headaches to me. And I still think these parents letting this girl sail around the world are nuts.

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 0) (#105)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:02:32 PM EST
    Interesting (not) argument for applying the death penalty to juveniles.

    The death penalty is barbaric, but I guess having the most incarcerated per capita in the world, the US population also loves the death penalty. So much for civilization...

    Parent

    actually (none / 0) (#109)
    by CST on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:06:39 PM EST
    that's another point.

    I'm against applying the death penalty to adults too.  So for me, whether they are "mature" or not in that sense is not really the question.

    But I still think there should be different standards for juveniles than adults in general in the justice system.

    Parent

    Why? (none / 0) (#113)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:10:01 PM EST
    But I still think there should be different standards for juveniles than adults in general in the justice system.


    Parent
    see post 104 (none / 0) (#114)
    by CST on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:11:27 PM EST
    that's why

    Parent
    You said (none / 0) (#117)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:13:59 PM EST
    You don't think there's a difference between "adult judgment" and "not adult judgment".

    Defendant A kills breaks into a house and kills owner with an ax.

    Defendant B breaks into an apartment and kills owner with an ax.

    Defendant A is 35. Defendant B is 15.

    Do they deserve different punishments?

    Parent

    no what i meant was (none / 0) (#121)
    by CST on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:19:11 PM EST
    not that they are not both in existence, just that it's not that black and white.  There are many things in between.  This part:

    "as I think there is more in the middle there than you allow for"

    that comes in the teenage years.  That's not to say that a 15 or 16 year old can't make some decisions one way.  But not all decisions are equal, and not all people at that age are equal.

    Yes, absolutely they do, because the 15 year old is still developing who they are.  That's not to say they can't make decisions, but that the process of growing up makes us think about who we are - and it's easier and more likely for a 15 year old to change than a 35 year old.  Although that's not to say a 35 year old can't change, it's just harder.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:23:16 PM EST
    My only point was that (not pointing the fingers at you), many people here were very adamant that minors' brains aren't fully developed to make adult judgments, ergo, they should not be held accountable like an adult when they commit crimes.  Those same people, were very black and white about it.  However, one cannot be so lack and white in arguing that kids lack the brain power to make good judgments, and then turn around and say, well, they can make "adult" decisions A, B, and C, but they cannot be held to the same standard in making "adult" decisions D, E, and F.

    That's all.

    Parent

    Some kids can do it (none / 0) (#138)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:53:29 PM EST
    Nothing from my womb so far :)  Josh is showing signs of hope though :)  He is very conservative though about taking risk.  He carefully calculates things and he has been a careful risk taker since toddlerhood.  Our daughter though, she'd walk right off the edge of the pool when she was two.......blissfully, as calm as a Hindu cow (to quote Fightclub).

    Parent
    I would feel fine with it (none / 0) (#144)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 06:00:31 PM EST
    See, the difference being that the Indian Ocean is very rough this time of year. If there was another 'just in case boat' within even 50 miles away, I would feel better. But when it will take days to get a boat to my child, no matter how good a sailor she was, I would probably say no. As for exchange students or even back packing around Europe, there is risk but not the same risks. Yep, you could always get hit by a bus or be in the wrong market at the wrong time, but the odds are a lot better than in the middle of the ocean.

    Parent
    A vast diff: solo on sea; school, travel abroad (none / 0) (#160)
    by Ellie on Sat Jun 12, 2010 at 12:19:57 PM EST
    Namely, help, personal resources and (ideally) responsible adult supervision are immediately available for youth in a foreign or away-campus. NO ONE Pwns the ocean even close to home. (cf Drill, Barry, Drill!)

    For slightly older kids traveling abroad, I'd hope they knew enough to check in so they couldn't simply vanish off the face of the earth as they might in the middle of the Deep Blue Sea.

    Even seasoned sailors have done so, as it's not up to them whether a mast breaks, there's an abrupt sea change, unpredictable weather conditions and so on.

    Parent

    agree (none / 0) (#165)
    by CST on Mon Jun 14, 2010 at 10:55:29 AM EST
    that's why I responded to the comment about spring break abroad, rather than the one about solo sailing.

    That's pretty hard core for anyone, regardless of age.  I wouldn't do it at 25, although I know some who do.  That being said, while I understand the concern about solo sailing, I'm not 100% sure I agree that age is the major issue.

    Although for something like that, with age comes experience, and I certainly wouldn't want to restrict an adult from getting their adventure "kicks" - even if it is on the dangerous side, so long as no one else is getting hurt.

    Parent

    Not all 16 year olds are the same (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:57:03 PM EST
    and, in fact, I'm still waiting for my dad's brain to mature. I know several 16 year olds who are more adult. ...only sort of kidding.

    Parent
    Welcome back Roger Simon (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:30:14 PM EST
    Not into Politico, but I hadn't realized Roger Simon was out because he was so ill.  He had a severe infection and lost his left foot and right leg.  What a fight.... so welcome back.

    Wow (none / 0) (#67)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:28:00 PM EST
    Thanks for the heads up on that.  I've been seeing that note on Politico that he was ill and then recovering for months and wondering what the heck was going on.  Is he a diabetic?  Did he step on a rusty nail or something?  One of those MMRSA infections?

    Parent
    In his own funny words (none / 0) (#81)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:04:46 PM EST
    In Roger Simon's words....

    Severe blood infection.

    Q: Where have you been? It's been months.
    A: I decided that while anyone can write about health care from the outside, it takes a real journalist to explore it from the inside.
    Q: So?
    A: So I had my legs cut off.
    Q: That's not funny!
    A: You're telling me. You want to know what's funny about losing your legs?
    Q: What?
    A: They're always in the last place you look.
    Q: I can't tell if you are making this up. How did you lose your legs?
    A: Would you believe a sky-diving accident?
    Q: No.
    A: How about a snowboarding pileup?
    Q: No.
    A: How about I got an infection and it led to blood poisoning?


    Parent

    Saw that after (none / 0) (#135)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:49:44 PM EST
    reading your comment, but it doesn't say how he managed to get massive infections in two extremities.  You don't go to bed at night with zero health problems and wake up the next morning with infections in both feet for no reason.

    Parent
    I fear this so much with Joshua (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:24:49 PM EST
    One of the judges that I hired for my past show too had a wife go in for something fairly uncomplicated, contracted MRSA, and was dead in two days.  He was devastated, he still came to judge though.  His face was always borderline heartbroken though.  He's such a good guy and a good judge.

    Parent
    Oh, how terrible! (none / 0) (#136)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:50:26 PM EST
    Cool Grapic (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:03:49 PM EST
    Thank you all (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:39:50 PM EST
    Have to go out and walk my doggie right now; from the look on my Dobie's face, I don't have much time.

    Will attempt the Linky when I return, and being Friday, maybe a celebration will follow.

    Thanks again...........

    why teachers drink (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:03:34 PM EST
    So are we -- with Italians (none / 0) (#1)
    by Cream City on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 09:40:40 AM EST
    in Assisi -- in a McDonald's, but after hiking miles up the mountain and down again in afternoon sun on a 90-degree day, we needed air conditioning before heading another block to the original basilica.

    And we got the World Cup, too!

    But we also got the most garish McDonald's decor we yet have seen, and we sort of collect it.:-)  Here, it is Ronald McD and cartoon friends photoshopped into a wall-size photograph, a sort of mural -- of medievally dressed mendicants strolling through ancient, holy streets of Assisi.

    It can be so embarrassing to be an Americano. . . .

    Whoo, a score!  The Italians are happy -- some also on netbooks, following reports as well.

    Ciao, all.

    Hate you! lol (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:28:15 AM EST
    Sounds wonderful (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:53:34 AM EST
    I'm a little jealous.

    Parent
    McDonald's? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:55:57 AM EST
    shame on you.  Im jealous

    Parent
    Happy Feet? (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:58:09 AM EST
    A burger on each toe? lol

    Parent
    Enjoy your holiday (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:37:48 AM EST
    Ha. Not quite a holiday. Our students (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Cream City on Sat Jun 12, 2010 at 03:11:15 AM EST
    from the U.S. of A. are great fun to watch as they watch Italians watch the World Cup, though.

    It begins to occur to our students that there is something bigger than the Super Bowl.

    And even some places more significant in world history than the U.S. of A.

    It's a start.  We do what we can. . . .

    Parent

    You have to be (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:45:50 AM EST
    made of stone not to root for the Italians, when you're hanging out with the Italians..

    Parent
    I just screwed this up (none / 0) (#2)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 09:41:38 AM EST
    in the Sally Quinn thread so it will likely be removed but:

    I happened to catch an interesting thing on cable last night called "A Special Relationship" which was about the relationship of Tony Blair and Bill Clinton.  Sheen is Blair.

    it was an interesting thing for a political junkie to come across.  I did not watch it closely enough to know how factual it is but it has some interesting performances.  particularly Bill and Hillary Clinton.  I expect to be able to catch it again as it cycles on cable.

    worth netflixing.

    I meant to tivo it (none / 0) (#4)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 09:56:59 AM EST
    I'll have to catch the cycling on HBO (I believe that is where it is airing).

    I think it is by Peter Morgan, the same writer as 'The Queen', in which Michael Sheen also played Tony Blair, and 'Frost/Nixon' in which he played Frost.

    I like his work - always has a fresh (to me) perspective on things.

    Parent

    Dennis Quaid (none / 0) (#5)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 09:59:42 AM EST
    was pretty impressive as Bill.  and the woman doing Hillary who I did not recognize was almost perfect.

    she even had the laugh down.


    Parent

    Hope Davis (none / 0) (#7)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:02:08 AM EST
    She is always good. I can imagine she would be a great Hillary.

    Parent
    Im thinking more (none / 0) (#41)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:34:56 AM EST
    the Manchurian Candidate era Angela Lansbury..

    Parent
    I caught that too (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:23:28 AM EST
    with the laugh

    Parent
    Michael Sheen showed some good comedy chops (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:05:06 PM EST
    ... as one of Liz (Tina Fey) Lemon's would-be BFs on 30 Rock.

    Parent
    I've been meaning to look that up (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:05:59 PM EST
    I thought it was him. He really was funny in that part. Frost/Nixon too, actually. He's becoming a favorite of mine.

    Parent
    I've been avoiding it so far (none / 0) (#18)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:33:12 AM EST
    but will watch it now since you say it's, at least, interesting. I was somewhat leery of how Bill and Hill would be portrayed-I always expect hatchet jobs on them. Suppose I'm too cynical.

    Parent
    it really was (none / 0) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:51:47 AM EST
    not a hatchet job.  there was a lot of Monica but honestly how could you tell that story without Monica.

    I thought what I saw was quite believable. even his snaking habits.


    Parent

    Saw this a couple (none / 0) (#21)
    by brodie on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:39:30 AM EST
    weeks back when it premiered.  Mixed reviews here.  Though I should have seen it coming, a third or more of the movie covered the utterly depressing MonicaMadness period.  Blair advised to keep his distance lest he too be tainted.

    Some interesting stuff also about Blair's relentlessly pushing a reluctant Bill to aggressively go after Milosevic over Kosovo.  Sadly though, Tony took that as his get tough on dictators Munich Moment and would later overreact on Iraq with Bush.

    While Dennis Quaid was fine as Clinton, the moviemakers tended to turn him into what Bill would call a cartoon figure (bad eating habits are often shown, as are his multi-tasking habits as he discusses important matters by phone with Tony while lining up a putt).  Hope Davis was a believable Hillary, who's mostly depicted here as the smart, stable spouse married to a self-indulgent cad.

    Worth seeing once, but for me, once is enough given some of the depressing subject matter and how disappointingly the relationship turned out.

    Parent

    um, (none / 0) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:53:01 AM EST
    Hillary, who's mostly depicted here as the smart, stable spouse married to a self-indulgent cad.

    well, its hard to argue.

    Parent

    and I say that with love (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:54:56 AM EST
    actually I would not say cad except in a sort of lovable way.  I did not think it was unfair to him and was mostly a positive portrait of an incredibly gifted and visionary man with serious character flaws.


    Parent
    You BETTER say that with love.. (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:32:54 AM EST
    As many a charming rogue from Arkansas has said: "Eatin' aint cheatin'"

    Parent
    In that one instance, I (none / 0) (#32)
    by brodie on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:58:35 AM EST
    agree.  

    But I meant to suggest that the filmmakers could have gone in several other directions with her, painting her in less flattering, simplistic, and misleading ways as our MSM and Clinton-hating left often did back then.  So it's to their credit they gave her a fair shake.

    Parent

    Hasn't this become (none / 0) (#71)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:41:31 PM EST
    the portrait in vogue?

    Parent
    these are (none / 0) (#3)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 09:55:38 AM EST
    my happy feet.

    seriously, I can not recommend these shoes highly enough.  they are quite simply the greatest things evah.

    I was thinking about trying them (none / 0) (#6)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:01:12 AM EST
    to see if they help straighten out my bunions. (Yes, I admit it, I have huge bunions). I have some brace things I wear at night, and other devices, but I think something that I could use while walking would be better.

    On the other hand it might just break my foot. Probably not something I should try on my own.

    Parent

    the soles (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:05:18 AM EST
    are much tougher than people expect.  they are flexible under the toes where they connect to the foot but every where else they are pretty tough.
    even the toe pads.


    Parent
    sounds like what I might need (none / 0) (#13)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:23:19 AM EST
    Something to help the toes flex in the right direction, at least little while each day, to loosen up the related muscles up the leg.

    Parent
    should mention (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:11:58 AM EST
    that different models have different soles.
    the ones pictured on my feet are, I believe, the "street versions"  

    Parent
    Just what I need, another wild shoe (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:21:23 AM EST
    No......seriously, a new wild shoe fixes so many things.

    Parent
    one of the worlds (none / 0) (#12)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:23:11 AM EST
    great truths, that.

    Parent
    New Anti-Obama Talking Points (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:21:17 AM EST
    Most have already been covered here. But maybe some pointers from the king of spin Karl Rove at the WSJ.

    wonder how much Karl got paid for that piece (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:27:30 AM EST
    The pointer we need from Karl is how to get paid for  such 'deep' analysis.

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:27:47 AM EST
    Barack Obama . . . was late recognizing the disaster's magnitude, late in visiting the region, late in approving requests by Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal, and late in feigning outrage.

    Karl Rove has some gall. But we knew that.

    Parent

    That whole Jindal business is really (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:54:28 AM EST
    annoying me. He has been trying to get the okay for berms for years-because of erosion, non-related to this disaster. Billy Nungesser also has wanted them. Lucky for them, BP came along to make it happen.

    I also read that dredging will release all the poisons-such as benzene-collected there from the Mississippi River flow. So, it could pollute the Gulf even more than the oil and dispersants have.

    Parent

    Of course Rove (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by brodie on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:05:21 AM EST
    is a hypocrite on this.

    Still, Obama's somewhat dilatory and puzzlingly tepid response to the spill has given idiots like Rove the room to make political hay out of this one.  

    The substance and optics by Obama have been strangely below par.  But then, this is the guy who flipped on offshore drilling, then decided that the oil companies were credible when they told him the technology for deep drilling was safe.  

    Also the same guy who appointed drilling proponent Ken Salazar to Interior.  What a ways we've come -- backwards -- since Kennedy named environmental advocate Stewart Udall to that cabinet post -- and that was a decade before the first Earth Day.

    Parent

    Puzzling Response? (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:29:52 AM EST
    Still, Obama's somewhat dilatory and puzzlingly tepid response to the spill....

    How would you have scripted the POTUS?

    And again, interesting that you are using many of the same talking points as Rove. Guess that they must be true.

    And Rove is not a hypocrite. Rove does spin, that is his job, was his job and will be his job as long as he is working for the GOP.

    It is his job make Obama or any Democrat look weak, bad, corrupt etc, so that the public will vote them out of office, and to spin the great leadership of the GOP, nothing more nothing less.  

    Obama has certainly made some very bad choices, decisions, but to spin the BP disaster as something Obama made worse, or failed at, is nonsense. Pure political spin.

    Parent

    and then (5.00 / 7) (#48)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:42:01 AM EST
    there's this

    which tends to support what brodie calls

    Obama's somewhat dilatory and puzzlingly tepid response to the spill

    like it or not

    it's really not a black-or-white situation where you're EITHER 1000 percent behind Obama OR a Karl Rove shill

    Parent

    Read It (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:49:21 PM EST
    Nothing new. I would argue that Obama should have immediately made gasoline $8.00 a gallon, and shut down all US drilling.

    But that would not have gotten him elected, would it? Sure would have reduced the possibility of this disaster from happening.

    And the article is sensationalist political spin, for sure. Sentences like:

    Like the attacks by Al Qaeda, the disaster in the Gulf was preceded by ample warnings - yet the administration had ignored them.

    Considering that BushCo and the neocons prayed for a disaster like 9/11, and that disaster served their purposes big time, read Patriot Act, war in Iraq, etc., the comparison is absurd, and serves the function as sensationalist journalism.

    As BP was cutting corners aboard the rig, the Obama administration was plotting the greatest expansion of offshore drilling in half a century. In 2008, as prices at the pump neared $5 a gallon, President Bush had lifted an executive moratorium on offshore drilling outside the Gulf that had been implemented by his father following the Exxon Valdez. On the campaign trail, Obama had stressed that offshore drilling "will not make a real dent in current gas prices or meet the long-term challenge of energy independence."

    Yes, this is a doozy. Obama eventually campaigned for opening up offshore drilling, but why bother mentioning that when it sounds better to say that Obama was lying. Also the 50 year expansion was a GOP wet dream, illegal because of the moratorium. Had BushCo been reelected (McSame) the offshore drilling would have quadrupled, compared to Obama and Salazar.

    In a way this kind of political reporting is not a bad thing as it uses hyperbole to sell paper and hopefully pushes against apathy regarding environmental concerns. Here is another political piece by Tim Dickson obviously meant to push things in the direction he saw fit:

    There's only one thing that makes sense of the Clinton campaign's clumsy and classless injection of race into her primary battle with Barack Obama. And that is that her victory in New Hampshire -- impressive though it was -- threatened to transform her into a special-interest candidate.

    Hillary would not have won that battle without exaggerated support from women. Despite having campaigned vigorously as a candidate who just-so-happened to be a woman, her lifeline came from affinity voters....

    How then to compete against Obama, who has -- as Al Sharpton recently complained -- run a race-neutral campaign? A man standing as a general-interest candidate despite his historic racial qualifications.

    The answer, it seems, has been to inject race into the campaign by any means necessary.

    HuffPo


    Parent

    i would say that the "puzzling response" (5.00 / 4) (#62)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:59:34 PM EST
    is yours, not brodie's

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:32:54 PM EST
    How would you have scripted Obama's response to the spill?

    Parent
    my only point (5.00 / 5) (#75)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:54:43 PM EST
    is that Karl Rove is what he is & that the Obama administration's actions (& failures to act) are what they are despite anything Rove says or how Rove spins events

    personally i do not like your tactic of attempting to slap the GOP label on brodie & others whose impressions of the Obama administration on this issue happen to align in some respects with Karl Rove's spin

    & i call BS on your attempt to bring up the 2008 primaries (last part of your comment #59) & stir sh!t up on this thread in the guise of suggesting that Tim Dickson is an impeachable source

    the facts about the Obama administration & the BP disaster are what they are & interpretations will vary

    please deal with that constructively

    Parent

    The Usual Suspects (5.00 / 0) (#84)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:14:01 PM EST
    This is an old saw by now. The idea is to hang anything around Obama's neck that can bring him down.

    The BP oil disaster is independent of Obama although many want to divert the blame toward Obama for political reasons only.

    And politics, as a tool to argue policy is one thing but to point a finger of blame for political reasons is an all together different animal.

    The usual suspects here are in complete alignment with the GOP and Karl Rove when it come to trying to destroy Obama, and that is more than obvious by now.

    Tim Dickerson is a political muckraker, who sells papers with sensationalism. He has waaaay more credibility than those who reflexively want Obama out because he was mean to Hillary. He is doing his job, and a good job at that, but to read his writing a dispassionate fact is absurd.  And I am not sure why you would think that I am trying to impeach his credibility as what he said about Hillary is true, although also clearly not dispassionate. As far as I know he wrote nothing about the rampant sexism hurled at Hillary.


    Parent

    Stop it (none / 0) (#161)
    by Yman on Sat Jun 12, 2010 at 10:28:21 PM EST
    How then to compete against Obama, who has -- as Al Sharpton recently complained -- run a race-neutral campaign? A man standing as a general-interest candidate despite his historic racial qualifications.

    The answer, it seems, has been to inject race into the campaign by any means necessary.
    ...
    I am not sure why you would think that I am trying to impeach his credibility as what he said about Hillary is true

    Yeah ... because you, the voice of dispassionate, objective reason, - the guy who hears "racist dogwhistles" at every moment of criticism - says it's true.

    (snicker).

    Parent

    Hate to break it to you (5.00 / 10) (#51)
    by brodie on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:46:36 AM EST
    but criticizing Obama's semi-response here does not make one a Rove.  Last I checked, I'm in fairly good company with Dems and libs like Carville, Brazile and Herbert -- just to reference a few off the top o' my head.  And the latter two -- iirc -- were a couple of the biggest media cheerleaders for Obama in the 2008 campaign.

    So stuff your Rove talking points nonsense.

    Obama has been a day late and a dollar short on this one -- and that's a take from a poster who enthusiastically supported him (unlike a few frequent posters here) against McLame and the Halfwit Guv, and who wants him to succeed.

    Sorry, but Obama has allowed this story to control him, and after the famous negative example of Bush and Katrina there is no excuse for this admin not being on top of it from day one, from all major angles.  Even then I was flexible enough to give them a few weeks to get their act together, but it's now 7 weeks in, and he's just about to get around to meet the BP Pres for the 1st time as I continue to hear about how BP in league with the gov't (Coast Guard) are stupidly restricting access to reporters on various important Gulf coverage stories.  Remind me please how media censorship is a positive for Obama.  

    Parent

    Being, apparently, among (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 05:27:05 PM EST
    those painted over with the Rove brush, I sort of understand how the guy who agreed that Il Duce got the trains to run on time must have felt at the partisan's rally. However, I do feel that my series of comments since April 20 about the BP blow and the response were reasonable in face of the catastrophe seen early-on as quickly getting out of hand from a perceived lack of resources, independence,coordination,competence, and responsible leadership. Unfortunately, too many early perceptions became realities. If anything, Rove, as the smart political operative he is, would be casting about for opposition arguments, and also, being smart, he knew they would not come from Republicans who would drill more and raise you one. For the most part, any substantive criticisms lurking around in his polemic are insincere and will be ignored by his target audience, except for those that pile-on the absent theme: be that votes, actions or birth certificate.  That does not mean that Obama and his administration have not been inept on this matter. It does not, for many concerned citizens,  have anything to do with embarrassing Obama on this issue for political reasons:  he is doing a good job of that on his own. And, it was totally unnecessary and to the country's detriment.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#149)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 07:12:06 PM EST
    Unlike a few of the regular commenters here I did not see you using the BP spill as another venue to bash Obama. IOW even though you have not been crazy about Obama, you are not functioning as a political operative whose sole purpose is to run him out of office ASAP.

    I am no fan of the guy either, and voted for Hillary in the primaries. I did not see much difference between Hillary and Obama policy wise, but I liked Hillary's style 100 times better. I voted for Obama because I saw him as a waaaaay better choice than McSame, other's here did not, I do not believe you belong to that group of die hard Hillary supporters.

    So FWIW, my broad brush does not include you.

    Parent

    Thank you. (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jun 12, 2010 at 10:04:20 AM EST
    No, I certainly do not want to see President Obama run out of office. In the Democratic primaries (Republicans, for me, then as now, are totally "off the table"), I was initially taken with Senator Obama, bought his books, and believed that he could bring a much needed fresh look over all, and particularly, after Bush's damage, in foreign policy, including the Iraq war. (although I did not like the re-direction of troops to Afghanistan--so it was, as for all of us, evaluating the pros and cons of the candidates). Actually, I liked all of the Democratic candidates (even enjoying Mike Gravel, to an extent) with the exception of John Edwards, who I always viewed as a light-weight.  However, after a few primary debates, I became less enthused with Obama's debating skills and more impressed with Senator Clinton. After the primary, however,  I became an avid supporter of Senator Obama's candidacy, to the extent that some passerbys thought my sign-laden house was an Obama campaign headquarters. McCain, if not for his POW heroism, would have been long gone after the Keating Five scandal, and, Gov. Palin's positions and preparedness were downright scary to me.  As president, Mr. Obama inherited a car without an engine and a repair shop embedded with corruption and incompetence. So, it seemed that the circumstances needed some understanding and patience to rectify and get us back on track. On that score, the record is mixed, but Sotomayor and Kagan are reassuring and I try to evaluate the administration on an issue by issue basis.  The BP blow was a real, visible challenge to President Obama, one not in far off Afghanistan or far out Wall Street; my early criticisms were intended as a plea for the Gulf as a matter of economic and environmental policy, and actually, robust leadership and unified command to address these needs would be good politics. I was, and continue to be, puzzled by the trust and faith put into the rogue BP, by so many, and that important governmental agencies were acting as handmaidens  to BP. Moreover, President Obama, himself, needed some of his own medicine in the form of his celebrated kick in the pants. And, the inept Salazar who never saw a rig he did not like, added to the mounting frustration.  The Republicans would not do it with any seriousness, and he may have felt that he had Democrats either in his corner or that he could marginalize them.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 12, 2010 at 11:15:30 AM EST
    my early criticisms were intended as a plea for the Gulf as a matter of economic and environmental policy..
    Yes that was clear, and our heartfelt sympathies go out to you because of your proximity to the disaster and because key west is a national treasure.

    Moreover, President Obama, himself, needed some of his own medicine in the form of his celebrated kick in the pants. And, the inept Salazar who never saw a rig he did not like, added to the mounting frustration.

    No question about that. Personally I think that a fawning voter base is extremely dangerous. But I think that a voter base that looks for opportunities to bash, spin and prove Obama is an empty suit, has no value at all, unless you are GOP, obviously you are not part of that group.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:40:32 AM EST
    it cost less to run for President in those days..

    And there were more people alive who remembered FDR and wouldn't dream of succumbing to the utter idiocy involved in the beatification of that paste board fiction, Reagan..

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#20)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:36:18 AM EST
    Guess you did the "math" too. Deepwater Spill is Obama's fault, he is worse than Bush.

    Parent
    best response to Rove (none / 0) (#22)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:40:24 AM EST
    Not really, IMO (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:01:23 PM EST
    Personally, that is about the only thing I did not fault Bush for. Did anyone really want him on the ground 'helping'? I'm sure it would have looked better if he had been on the ground showing concern, but I am resistant to criticism of both him and Obama for bad optics alone.

    Rove's critique is so boiler plate he will be using it for every mistake Obama makes for years to come. I think we can all write it ourselves in our sleep.

    I have forgotten what exactly Bush's involvement was behind the scenes in the Katrina response, but my hazy memory is: not much. Obama claims to have been active behind the scenes from day 1 and no one has refuted that. Was he an effective manager of his team, bringing them immediately to max capability and alert, no matter what he personally said to the news media? I have not answered that for myself yet. I don't expect him to be making the technical decisions himself, but he has to get the right people in the room to make them, keeping all the varied interests in mind. That's his job.

    Real criticism for both of them is deserved for the people they had in place managing the response. Salazar is not my choice for a disaster manager. He will never cut through red tape to get things done fast. It is not his nature.

    Definitely the MSS cleanup did not happen fast enough in the last 18 months, and that is on both Obama and Salazar.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:55:36 AM EST
    Some here, and of course all the teabaggers, would say that Bush is looking really presidential in that pic, compared to the "empty suit" we have now, despite the caption.

    The answer is of course, Bush and Cheney, oil men, spent 8 years eviscerating the EPA, OSHA, and all regulatory agencies, based on the principal that big business' interest will regulate itself, wrote the script for the BP deepwater disaster, just like they wrote the script for Katerina.

    Parent

    You said: (5.00 / 8) (#53)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:04:37 PM EST
    The answer is of course, Bush and Cheney, oil men, spent 8 years eviscerating the EPA, OSHA, and all regulatory agencies, based on the principal that big business' interest will regulate itself, wrote the script for the BP deepwater disaster, just like they wrote the script for Katerina.

    But, here's the thing, squeaky: Bush may have written the script, but Obama came into office asserting that he - and his nominee to Interior, Ken Salazar - were going to clean up the agency (among other things).  But they didn't.

    Have you read the Rolling Stone piece?  There's plenty of blame for Bush in it, but there's a whole lot more, and one simply cannot dismiss what actually has happened on Obama's watch.

    From the article (emphasis is mine):

    Salazar took over Interior in January 2009, vowing to restore the department's "respect for scientific integrity." He immediately traveled to MMS headquarters outside Denver and delivered a beat-down to staffers for their "blatant and criminal conflicts of interest and self-dealing" that had "set one of the worst examples of corruption and abuse in government." Promising to "set the standard for reform," Salazar declared, "The American people will know the Minerals Management Service as a defender of the taxpayer. You are the ones who will make special interests play by the rules." Dressed in his trademark Stetson and bolo tie, Salazar boldly proclaimed, "There's a new sheriff in town."

    [snip]

    "We have embarked on an ambitious agenda to clean up the mess," he insisted. "We have the inspector general involved with us in a preventive mode so that the department doesn't commit the same mistakes of the past." The crackdown, he added, "goes beyond just codes of ethics."

    Except that it didn't. Salazar did little to tamp down on the lawlessness at MMS, beyond referring a few employees for criminal prosecution and ending a Bush-era program that allowed oil companies to make their "royalty" payments - the amount they owe taxpayers for extracting a scarce public resource - not in cash but in crude. And instead of putting the brakes on new offshore drilling, Salazar immediately throttled it up to record levels. Even though he had scrapped the Bush plan, Salazar put 53 million offshore acres up for lease in the Gulf in his first year alone - an all-time high.  The aggressive leasing came as no surprise, given Salazar's track record. "This guy has a long, long history of promoting offshore oil drilling - that's his thing," says Kierán Suckling, executive director of the Center for Biological Diversity. "He's got a highly specific soft spot for offshore oil drilling." As a senator, Salazar not only steered passage of the Gulf of Mexico Energy Security Act, which opened 8 million acres in the Gulf to drilling, he even criticized President Bush for not forcing oil companies to develop existing leases faster.

    Salazar was far less aggressive, however, when it came to making good on his promise to fix MMS. Though he criticized the actions of "a few rotten apples" at the agency, he left long-serving lackeys of the oil industry in charge. "The people that are ethically challenged are the career managers, the people who come up through the ranks," says a marine biologist who left the agency over the way science was tampered with by top officials. "In order to get promoted at MMS, you better get invested in this pro-development oil culture." One of the Bush-era managers whom Salazar left in place was John Goll, the agency's director for Alaska. Shortly after, the Interior secretary announced a reorganization of MMS in the wake of the Gulf disaster, Goll called a staff meeting and served cake decorated with the words "Drill, baby, drill."

    Salazar also failed to remove Chris Oynes, a top MMS official who had been a central figure in a multibillion-dollar scandal that Interior's inspector general called "a jaw-dropping example of bureaucratic bungling." In the 1990s, industry lobbyists secured a sweetheart subsidy from Congress: Drillers would pay no royalties on oil extracted in deep water until prices rose above $28 a barrel. But this tripwire was conveniently omitted in Gulf leases overseen by Oynes - a mistake that will let the oil giants pocket as much as $53 billion. Instead of being fired for this f**kup, however, Oynes was promoted by Bush to become associate director for offshore drilling - a position he kept under Salazar until the Gulf disaster hit.

    How many more times, and on how many more issues, are we going to have to hear that it's not Obama's fault because he inherited the mess?  How many more administration officials are going to keep beating that drum?  

    Obama will happily stand up and say that he accepts responsibility, but after hearing him do that on a number of occasions, I've come to the conclusion that it is little more than a tactic designed to shut people up, to make them stop looking at what went wrong and how it went wrong.

    Whatever Bush and Cheney did could have been undone, or set on a better path.  Reading about how Salazar (who I presume had the approval of his boss) made a couple high-profile moves designed to convince people that things were changing, but left the bulk of the dysfunctional pieces and personnel in place, and went about conducting business as usual - the "usual" being the same way it was conducted under Bush -  it is impossible for reasonable people to conclude that Obama can take any refuge in what happened before he took office.

    It's the pattern of his presidency, otherwise known as a "feature" and not a "bug."

    Parent

    Politics As Usual (5.00 / 0) (#61)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:57:29 PM EST
    And you are taking full advantage of the moment, obviously.

    Personally I do not see this as Obama's fault, or think that his response was lacking in any way.

    I do wish he would shut down all US drilling and raise the price of gasoline to $8.00/gal, using that money plus huge government subsidies to develop alternate energy sources. It is clearly the wave of the future, and the way to go.

    Parent

    True, but Anne (none / 0) (#65)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:23:13 PM EST
    your emphasis is misplaced.....Your target here is Obama.  Fine.  Salazar was a bad pick--I wrote weeks ago that he should be fired.  And Obama is deservedly criticized for picking him and for his oil drilling policy.

    Your goal is to establish a "pattern" with Obama....  Okay, so then what?  

    There is a much broader agenda at stake here.  Opinion is changing on off-shore drilling....But you still have Sarah Palin sticking to her Drill, Baby, Drill.  It would seem there is ample opportunity to attack the merits of the energy issue....

    But your target appears to be solely Obama....

    I think the focus should be on the energy and oil drilling issues.....

    Parent

    Obama is the decider (5.00 / 6) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:59:35 PM EST
    He came out for drill baby drill too.  He even made the claim about how terrific drilling technology was.  He hired Salazar, he can fire Salazar, and the control that Salazar has over drilling is profound and the control that Obama has over Salazar is profound....he doesn't have many checks and balances.  I'm all for increasing the focus on energy issues, but Obama is the decider on all of this.  Just because he is quiet about the power he wields doesn't make it any less or the amount of oil leases that he chose to make newly available.  AND...Obama has told me to my face that if I want him to care I have to make him care.  So come on man

    Parent
    My emphasis was on responding to (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:09:25 PM EST
    squeaky's comment in which he wanted to lay all the blame for the BP disaster on Bush/Cheney; if you want to have a discussion about energy policy, that's fine - let's do that - but I don't think that's going to help take much heat off Obama.

    As BP was cutting corners aboard the rig, the Obama administration was plotting the greatest expansion of offshore drilling in half a century. In 2008, as prices at the pump neared $5 a gallon, President Bush had lifted an executive moratorium on offshore drilling outside the Gulf that had been implemented by his father following the . On the campaign trail, Obama had stressed that offshore drilling "will not make a real dent in current gas prices or meet the long-term challenge of energy independence." But once in office, he bowed to the politics of "drill, baby, drill." Hoping to use oil as a bargaining chip to win votes for climate legislation in Congress, Obama unveiled an aggressive push for new offshore drilling in the Arctic, the Southeastern seaboard and new waters in the Gulf, closer to Florida than ever before. In doing so, he ignored his administration's top experts on ocean science, who warned that the offshore plan dramatically understated the risks of an oil spill and petitioned Salazar to exempt the Arctic from drilling until more scientific studies could be conducted.

    Undeterred, Obama and Salazar appeared together at Andrews Air Force Base on March 31st to introduce the plan. The stagecraft was pure Rove in its technicolor militaristic patriotism. The president's podium was set up in front of the cockpit of an F-18, flanked by a massive American flag. "We are not here to do what is easy," Salazar declared. "We are here to do what is right." He insisted that his reforms at MMS were working: "We are making decisions based on sound information and sound science." The president, for his part, praised Salazar as "one of the finest secretaries of Interior we've ever had" and stressed that his administration had studied the drilling plan for more than a year. "This is not a decision that I've made lightly," he said. Two days later, he issued an even more sweeping assurance. "It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don't cause spills," the president said. "They are technologically very advanced."

    Eighteen days later, on the eve of the 40th anniversary of Earth Day, the Deepwater Horizon rig went off like a bomb.

    As for my goal - again - I was responding to squeaky's comment, in which he pronounced that whatever was happening was all Bush/Cheney's fault; in providing a link to, and an excerpt from, a fairly comprehensive article on the oil spill, I was hoping to show, as I said, that no reasonable person could credibly find safe harbor for Obama in the actions of his predecessor.  Does he own all of it?  No - the groundwork was laid by others.  But, he does own the failure to clean up the agency, the failure to institute better and more rigorous oversight, and he owns Ken Salazar.

    So, my goal was not to establish a pattern for Obama - he's doing that all by himself.  Patterns are important; being able to see and identify them helps in strategizing against them, and that begins with affirmatively calling BS on those who think we can't see what they're up to.

    I agree with you that this country needs a better energy policy, but that was not the focus of the comment I was responding to.


    Parent

    No (2.67 / 3) (#88)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:24:01 PM EST
    My emphasis was on responding to squeaky's comment in which he wanted to lay all the blame for the BP disaster on Bush/Cheney.

    No, my only point was that you and Rove are both interested in the same thing, and could have written exactly the same article for WSJ, save for the fact that Rove is 100 times more talented than you at spin.

    As for my response, blaming it all on BushCo that would be my political spin to counter Rove's spin, as opposed the suggested response by The Addams Family, of Bush looking down at NOLA from an airplane. You on the other hand are consistent, and basically doing exactly the same job as Rove when it comes to Obama, although it is here, and at your other blogs, that you do your work, not the WSJ.

    Parent

    I don't think you know what your point was; (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:03:37 PM EST
    the Rove thing was not addressed in the original comment that I responded to, and it did not come up at all in my comment responding to MKS.

    The real problem is that you said this:

    The answer is of course, Bush and Cheney, oil men, spent 8 years eviscerating the EPA, OSHA, and all regulatory agencies, based on the principal that big business' interest will regulate itself, wrote the script for the BP deepwater disaster, just like they wrote the script for Katerina.

    And now do not want to defend it, other than to now characterize it as your "political spin;" I agree that you're spinning, but not quite in the way you would have us believe.  As you are so fond of saying: LOL

    You went on, in your response to my comment, to say:

    Personally I do not see this as Obama's fault, or think that his response was lacking in any way.

    Others do not agree, but what you miss in your rather lame attempt to make us all into Karl Rove clones, is that those of us who believe Obama has some ownership in this have not and are not letting Bush/Cheney off the hook, and have not and are not blaming the entirety of this disaster on Obama.

    That you would say there was "nothing new" in the RS article is to advertise that you didn't read it, or only got far enough - the author's name - to go off in search of ugliness that has NOTHING TO DO with this crisis.

    But, I guess when you have nothing else, that's where you have to go.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#110)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:08:30 PM EST
    The real problem is that you said this:

    The answer is of course, Bush and Cheney, oil men, spent 8 years eviscerating the EPA, OSHA, and all regulatory agencies, based on the principal that big business' interest will regulate itself, wrote the script for the BP deepwater disaster, just like they wrote the script for Katerina.

    In response to this:

    best response to Rove (none / 0) (#22)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:40:24 AM EST
    this

    My idea of the best "response to Rove" would be the spin  I wrote

    spin

    Considering almost all your comments are spin against Obama, I would think you would understand, but then again you have your job to do.  

    Parent

    The key is who controls the debate (none / 0) (#120)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:17:54 PM EST
    ...who frames the debate....

    The point about Obama admninistration failures has been made....but because Rove and others are making it too, the danger is that it becomes the only focus.....

    You get any number of positive points here for hitting Obama over this, but at some point will the debate shift to the issue of the actual policy that should be employed?.....Is there as much interest here in that as in blasting Obama?

    I do question the level of interest in protecting our oeans as opposed to criticizing the administration as an end unto itself.....If every post on the spill ends with the refrain that this is just emblematic of Obama across-the-board, that this is the takeway from the post, then the oceans are getting short shrift....

    Parent

    But if Rove and Sqeaky are (5.00 / 5) (#108)
    by dk on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:05:14 PM EST
    both spinning, aren't they too interested in the same thing, namely, obfuscating the truth for the sake of propping up one politician (or group of politicians) over the other?  

    Parent
    I think you got the Obama criticism covered (none / 0) (#92)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:37:39 PM EST
    Obama's mistake here was forgetting fundamentals and cutting corners for the sake of obtaining a transformational energy policy--the big blockbuster bill; and a nod toward some off-shore drilling was perceived as the entree' to that end.

    The Bush/Cheney legacy will require significant effort to dismantle; and in watching Liz Cheney and George Will say with straight faces that it is all Obama's fault because he didn't run MMS correctly, but that the Drill, Baby, Drill philosophy is still correct, and in watching George Will fault the oversight but then say at the same time that Americans trust business more than the government, it appears that we have our work cut out for us in changing minds on the key issue.....

    If you change public attitudes, the politicians will follow....

    If you'd rather spend time going after the administration (and I understand this approach, having first come to see its use when the demonstrators went in 1968 to the Democratic convention--instead of the Republican convention--to protest the war, even though the Republicans were bigger supporters of the war, because the Democrats were in power), then let me suggest this:  Try to get them to sack Salazar.  Not so much for accountability but more as to future decisions at Interior--which will matter much....Going after Obama endlessly just goes nowhere....He's not going to resign.

    Parent

    So, who said anything about Obama resigning? (5.00 / 4) (#123)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:21:51 PM EST
    I did not know that criticism and holding his feet to the fire had resignation as the endgame - I was thinking more along the lines of changing the policy.

    I think there's another possibility here that ought to be considered, and that is that it isn't that Obama's forgotten the fundamentals, or that he has cut corners to get to transformational energy policy, but that he is moving toward the same kind of transformation in energy policy as we got when he "transformed" health care.  I mean, it's not like he's really going to get Republican votes in exchange for expanding offshore drilling, you know, anymore than he got Republican votes for selling out on every truly transformational element of health whatever reform.  But, what he will get is the undying gratitude of the oil industry if this takes the same track everything else has taken.

    I don't think this has to be an either-or undertaking.  I don't think it's a matter of choosing between going after the administration when it's called for and getting rid of Salazar.  For one, what makes you think that sending Salazar home to spend more time with his family (or, more likely , to sign on with a major oil company or lobbying firm) will result in his replacement doing the things that Salazar failed to do if the president who has to nominate someone new isn't looking to change the policies that led to this disaster?

    Salazar needs to go, but so does the culture and the policy that he represented; that's not a call for Obama to resign, but a call for the policies to change.


    Parent

    MKS has you confused (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:02:53 PM EST
    with Ga6thDem who is always calling for Obama to resign - silly idea

    yesterday MKS had Ellie confused w/Emma & somebody named Eddie . . .

    Parent

    And as to Eddie, I actually had confused (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 05:58:47 PM EST
    The Munsters with the Addams Family....

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#154)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:19:40 PM EST
    If you want to keep the conversation (none / 0) (#142)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 05:57:20 PM EST
    civil, then it would be helpful to note what I actually wrote.   I didn't say anyone here asked Obama to resign.....

    If you want to revisit yesterday, we can do that....But given all your pleas for civility, I think you should take a different tack.

    Parent

    btw (none / 0) (#155)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:29:08 PM EST
    i was not calling for civility yesterday or whenever it was

    i was suggesting that people not feed the trolls & i did not mean you (or capt howdy who seemed to think i did)

    today it seems to me that your "he's not going to resign" is directly related to another commenter's shtick, on display again yesterday, that obama should resign

    if not i don't know where you were coming from today with that - apologies on my behalf & on behalf of all the Munsters

    Parent

    Obama nearly had Graham with the (none / 0) (#125)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:30:39 PM EST
    new policy.  So, it was close to "working."

    The more focused on policy, the more productive the discussion imo.....

    I am all for a Rolling Stone follow up and was surprised they got the story this quickly--or maybe it really isn't that quickly in terms of the calendar as it has been a few weeks, but in terms of the chronology of events we are still in the first quarter as the spill has not been stanched....

    Parent

    Oh, please, Obama was never (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:29:55 PM EST
    going to get Lindsay Graham. There was no chance that Graham would vote for any real reform. He was playing the same game that republicans have been playing all along with this WH. They pretend that they want to vote for something (the stimulus, health care, energy reform, financial regulation), insist on watering down whatever legislation is being proposed and then, when an already weak bill has been completely watered down, they  vote No.

    Graham plays this game very well.


    Parent

    The jury was out on Salazar (none / 0) (#126)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:38:16 PM EST
    until the announcement of the new (hopefully now dead) drilling policy.  He had cancelled a number of Bush era leases on BLM land in Utah and Colorado and said iirc some good things about protecting the Otero Mesa in New Mexico.

    And, frankly, not too many environmentalists had made a stink in the past about drilling in the Gulf.  It's a lot of brown water.....

    Parent

    This kind of blind loyalty to (5.00 / 5) (#140)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 05:04:38 PM EST
    anything Obama administration is not going to be helpful in advocating for policies. It will also be unhelpful in getting action from the white house. Who ever said Obama should resign? In regards to the BP Disaster, he should be more active - not resign. Then we'd have Biden and lots of transition instability and it is just silly.

    Its like it is two freakin years ago.

    It is so passive to say the president should wave his wand and raise gas prices to $8 and then we could have green energy. First, it is not going to happen. It is just unrealistic and therefore it is just too easy! Its just BS. Second, it makes real changes much harder by not advocating for steps that actually could be taken. And third, these are long term solutions.

    Right now we have an ongoing crisis and I'm surprised at the passive acceptance of the federal government's response.

    Parent

    Blind Loyalty? (none / 0) (#148)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 06:54:10 PM EST
    Perhaps by some but not by moi. Please read my posts on this thread--I've said I wanted Salazar fired, for Pete's sake....

    But where is the criticism of Bush/Cheney and Palin and Drill, Baby, Drill?....We don't see much of that here.  No, God forbid, someone would actually criticize Palin--even though this is her signature issue and reflects the view of many.  And...crickets.....Pefecto....Just as Rove would like...

      The criticism is all one-sided.  It makes me question the real interest in the oceans as opposed to scoring political points against Obama.      
     

    Parent

    No one is letting the Bush gang off the hook, (5.00 / 3) (#152)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 07:44:03 PM EST
    but neither of them hold any public office, and therefore have no ability to direct what is happening NOW.

    And Palin?  Good Lord, I hate talking about her because I think it gives her a legitimacy and a credibility she hasn't earned and doesn't deserve - and, I think talking about her is a distraction from those people who do have the ability to effect change.  I mean, who is Sarah Palin?  She holds no public office, has no job, other than to agitate and push people's buttons.

    Obama has perpetuated the Drill, Baby, Drill mentality in his choice of Salazar for Interior; do you really think that if he gave a flying fig about the oceans and the environment he would even have chosen someone like Salazar in the first place?  I don't, and I have no reason to think that if Salazar was sent packing, whoever would take his place wouldn't be just more of the same.

    I hated the Bush/Cheney approach to the environment, with their Clean Air Act and their Healthy Forests Initiatives, and all the other things that were named in complete opposition to what they actually represented.  I thought there was a half a chance that we might begin to move in a better direction once the Dems took Congress and then the White House, but there just is no credible explanation for why the MMS was allowed to continue to operate as an arm of the oil industry.

    Do I know for certain that if Obama had truly been committed to better policy, if he had put someone at Interior who was similarly committed, that the BP disaster would not have happened?  Well, I don't know with 100% certainty, but if BP had been held to a higher standard, had not had their permit issued so cavalierly, maybe it wouldn't have happened.

    It starts at the top, and the person who's there right now is Obama - not Bush, not Cheney, not Palin - and that's why the focus is on him - he's the one, together with the Congress, who has the power to do it better, and so far, I am not seeing better, just more of the same obeisance to yet another Big Industry.

    Parent

    MKS (#148) You have a point, but (none / 0) (#150)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 07:36:22 PM EST
    this is a "left" site and criticism of the right is assumed. But you want to hear it .... Boo on Palin. Soooooo glad she is not part of the government in any way. She is a very very unhelpful pundit along with a couple of others and I find her ideas half baked. I find her style of partisanship offensive.

    Now, on another note - oil is a problem. We really do not realize how dependent on oil we, as a society, are. We are an interdependent society and oil is what our energy sources are based on around 40%. This is the "oil age" and transitioning from that will be horribly painful. Seriously. So the right is wanting to hoard oil sources and get risky for oil - even go to war for it. I fault them for that and do not support them!! I wish the left - who are in complete power right now - would make greater efforts to transition off oil! I'm not talking about the BP Disaster right now, but longer term solutions.

    Parent

    And (adding to #150) (none / 0) (#151)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 07:39:26 PM EST
    the longer we as a society put off transitioning from oil the harder the crash will be. This is a short term society - want that quarterly profit. Put off the pain and maybe it will go away.

    Parent
    Drill, Baby, Drill (none / 0) (#157)
    by Rojas on Sat Jun 12, 2010 at 09:21:27 AM EST
    was a cheap political slogan. It had a half life of about four months....
    BP has a consistent record of non-conformance for decades. Not a new kid on the block.


    Parent
    Thank you for pointing out BP's record (none / 0) (#162)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 13, 2010 at 12:23:01 PM EST
    It's my understanding that those in the oil industry know that BP has a very poor record on both disaster prevention and clean-up -- and this poor record reflects both inadequate know-how and serious lack of commitment.  So, any approach to dealing with the spill that relies in any way on BP, rather than having those more committed to and more expert at clean-up direct efforts of BP and others is a waste of time.  Among other solutions that are apparently being ignored, is the empty supertanker solution to cleaning up the spill used successfully in the Arabian Gulf.  This is written about extensively at the Esquire politics blog and elsewhere.  
    Another reason acting on tried solutions is imperative is that BP is believed to be planning to place all of its assets in an entity outside the jurisdiction of U.S. bankruptcy courts while leaving the liabilities for the spill where they are -- BP North America, go through a bankruptcy, where the assets cannot be touched and monies to pay for the damage will be woefully inadequate. There are many articles about this.
    Update: Evidently, On Friday nite, 6/11, Watson (Coast Guard) gave BP 48 hours to provide a more effective plan to implementing speedy cleanup. As I read the letter, it says nothing about what will happen if BP doesn't. BP is preparing response. Will there be a war of letters, or will the Admin do something truly effective in short order?


    Parent
    If the lesson is to support issues (none / 0) (#69)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:35:42 PM EST
    and not politicians, does that not carry over to opposition as well?  

    You have cultists on both side of the Obama divide.....I think it is distinctly possible to become so obsessed with opposing a particular politician that the issues take a back seat.

    And, the politician who is most identified with oil drilling--the Drill, Baby, Drill cheerleader--seems to escape much criticism.  Regardless of whether she actually runs or not, she is driving public opinion.  No criticism of her here?  Or is it as learned here, that because she is a woman and women have been historically discriminated against, it is wrong and to ack like a jackass (your characterization) to harshly criticize her....

    Parent

    I think the lesson is to fight for (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:01:47 PM EST
    cause, but I didn't read anything in the lesson about no need for accountability.  If Obama is going to keep on increasing our off shore drilling I'm going to have to keep on increasing my Obama attacking on that issue.

    Parent
    Sorry, Anne, (none / 0) (#76)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:56:07 PM EST
    the Palin comments were not yours, but someone else's.

    Parent
    Poor Karl. Love him, hate him, love him.... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:35:16 AM EST
    He just can't quit him.

    Parent
    seen newsweek? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 10:58:00 AM EST
    Ugh. Just awful. (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:20:55 AM EST
    It doesn't say anything about feminism, Newsweek, but don't let that stop you, and the rest of the media, from trying to make it so.

    Parent
    Misogyny, the other Americana slavery (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:35:45 AM EST
    that image (none / 0) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:23:19 AM EST
    looks like it should be on one of those candles you can buy in supermarkets in LA that have prayers on one side.

    maybe it was supposed to.

    Parent

    Our Lady of Perpetual Nonsense? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Joan in VA on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:46:01 AM EST
    or as another blog buddy said (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:50:11 AM EST
    Yes, finally, a patron saint of hate, genocidal rage and ignorance!


    Parent
    I agree but others don't (none / 0) (#122)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:21:06 PM EST
    Hence, the article.....Will Palin be able to hijack feminism with folksy conservative pluck?

    Parent
    Heh! What it says about the future (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:25:39 AM EST
    of feminism?  The same thing it says about feminism's past, that some of us will argue vigorously to know our pregnant, barefoot in the kitchen place.  It is their right to do so.  As for me, 'Sleepers' was on last night so I rewatched it.  There is a line from the movie talking about how once upon a time wife beating was a cottage industry in Hell's Kitchen.  Heck, it was a cottage industry all over America.  I remember a bad fight and my mom tapping pancake makeup on, keeping her trembling chin up.....and to hell with that and to hell with anyone who thinks they can recreate that future for my granddaughters!

    Parent
    Wife beating is (none / 0) (#163)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 13, 2010 at 12:25:57 PM EST
    still very much alive and well, according to Federal statistic compiled regularly from reported cases; most agree that there are many more unreported cases.  

    Parent
    Hmmmm... (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:36:47 AM EST
    Didn't Newsmax buy them? looks like they did.

    And this blast from the past:

    Official Statement on NEWSWEEK's Sarah Palin Cover

    This week, to coincide with the release of Sarah Palin's book Going Rogue, NEWSWEEK's editors decided to print two essays (one by Evan Thomas, the other by Christopher Hitchens) about the former Alaska governor and have her image grace our cover. The photo chosen was from a shoot Palin had participated in for Runner's World magazine.

    Nov 17, 2009

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#47)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:41:46 AM EST
    They made a bid, along with 5 other companies.

    Parent
    She's looking quite (none / 0) (#91)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:35:11 PM EST
    a bit like Elphaba from Wicked in that picture..

    How about a little fire, liberal strawman?!

    Parent

    ouch! (none / 0) (#34)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 11:11:29 AM EST
    'world's largest egg'

    one of his hens had laid a whopper measuring as astonishing 9.1 inches in diameter.

    She was limping a bit but she was all right. I'm really proud of her



    Amanda Knox (none / 0) (#60)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 12:54:40 PM EST
    the mobsters says (none / 0) (#95)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:42:58 PM EST
    he buried the murder weapon at his house....If so,......

    If not,......

    Parent

    Is it wrong to think (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:01:57 PM EST
    that NY Gov Paterson's dire warnings of chaos and anarchy if the state government were to shut down might be an improvement?

    Such chaos includes closing all state parks, motor vehicles offices, courts, and even the lottery. Public assistance payments would not be made and unemployment payments might also be held up.

    The lack of assistance checks is not cool, granted...but the state parks being free and no DMV sounds pretty damn good to this knucklehead!  No courts, no drug convictions...digging that too. I assume the state troopers would no longer be getting paid as well...silver linings abound!

    I don't think (none / 0) (#64)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:10:33 PM EST
    It would work out the way you envision.

    Parks would probably have a police car parked in front, so you couldn't get in.  If you could get in, trash would pile up and the bathrooms wouldn't be cleaned.

    As for the courts - people would just stay in jail (where possible).

    And state troopers would get their money when the government reopened.

    Sorry to burst your bubble.  :)

    Parent

    Cops ain't gonna work for free... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:23:38 PM EST
    and if they are willing, I doubt standing guard to prevent public access to public parks is gonna be a priority...the most you'd have to do is hop a fence.  And it's not like the bathrooms are very clean when the government is open (or even unlocked in some parks)...I often use a tree to avoid them:)

    And I think the law prohibits holding suspects without due process for long...besides, wouldn't prison guards stop getting paid as well?  All the cages might be opened...some seriously bad news folks among those released (not cool column), but on the whole another positive.

    Parent

    Probably in those situations (none / 0) (#70)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:37:06 PM EST
    Because they are matters of public safety, those jobs would be exempt from no money - might come out of emergency funds.  They aren't going to have prisons with no guards, or no police on the street.

    They can also keep a court open to do things like arraignments.

    Parent

    That begs the question... (none / 0) (#72)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:44:04 PM EST
    where is the chaos and anarchy?  Curious quasi-anarchists wanna know!...:)

    Parent
    I bet (none / 0) (#87)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:21:39 PM EST
    You could start something if you really want to test the limits.

    Party at kdog's pad!

     :)

    Parent

    They already released hundreds of (none / 0) (#86)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:19:21 PM EST
    inmates early in California because of budget issues....

    Parent
    But isn't this just the start of the list? (none / 0) (#74)
    by EL seattle on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 01:54:28 PM EST
    It just doesn't sound like there's a real threat of chaos and anarchy to me.

    If someone is going to issue dire warnings about chaos and anarchy (!) they really should be willing to go provide a compete list of the impending problems.  Especially if New York is involved in any way.

    Parent

    Charlie Crist has just become a Democrat (none / 0) (#85)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:17:17 PM EST
    A little late.  Markos told him to do it a long time ago.....

    Just vetoed anti-abortion bill.  Looks like his "pro-life" stance was contrived.  

    I'm very glad for the veto (none / 0) (#94)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:42:43 PM EST
    Did he really switch parties too?

    Parent
    Not officially (none / 0) (#97)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:46:42 PM EST
    But this moving slide towards Democratic issues portends a trend.....

    It is pretty impressive for a politician.  Arlen was too crude and hamhanded.  Crist is pretty smooth and will "evolve" over time.  

    Next up?  Who will he caucus with in the Senate?  Why, the majority, of course, and if he is elected that would be the Democrats....

    I still say Hillary/Crist in 2016 v. Huntsman/Ryan.

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#116)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:13:08 PM EST
    I had not got so far in my thinking as to consider who he would caucus with if he wins. He'd never be a reliable Dem vote, but not a reliable Rep one either. He may be more reliable as a Dem than Lieberman is though.

    Should be a good race. May be close to a 3 way tie.

    Parent

    Either that or his (none / 0) (#139)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:53:43 PM EST
    pro-choice stance now is contrived.

    Don't much care why he did it as long as he did it, but I wouldn't trust him any further than I could throw him.  I have even less respect for someone who would take a stance in favor of state-enforced pregnancy as a contrivance than I do for those who take it as a matter of conviction.

    Parent

    I think Christ has some other (none / 0) (#164)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 13, 2010 at 12:29:44 PM EST
    redeeming qualities. I believe Christ made a decision not to enforce Fl laws that would have hurt the Dems in the presidential election.  Trying to dig up specifics....  I remember being quite surprised at the time.

    Parent
    Please (none / 0) (#98)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:53:25 PM EST
    Would somebody please explain, in step by step detail, exactly how to do the link thing. I know it's been explained many times, but it seems there's always a critical part left out that you may take for granted, but we geek-illiterates can't figure out.

    So please, after you stop laughing, help this fat-fingered geezer out.

    Bless you.

    if you have the same browser that I have (none / 0) (#101)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:56:18 PM EST
    ther are 6 little boxes above the comment box.  the 4th one is the link do dad.

    you simply highlight the word or phrase you want to use as the link and click that button.  then you cut and paste the http address in that window and close it.

    done.
    the words should change color and be a link.  and they work in the preview box for testing.

    Parent

    Easiest Way (none / 0) (#102)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:57:18 PM EST
    1. Add bracket [

    2. Add word or words that will be highlighted like: link or, read more

    3. Add URL

    4 Add closing bracket  ]

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#103)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:00:00 PM EST
    the link box is easier

    Parent
    For You (none / 0) (#115)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:12:00 PM EST
    But I have found that some here find that more difficult. Maybe it is their browser or something. The manual way actually involves one less step.

    Parent
    My browser at work (none / 0) (#118)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:15:06 PM EST
    won't let me use the box, for some reason. So I use the bracket method all the time now, just out of habit.

    Parent
    Slight correction (none / 0) (#119)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:17:03 PM EST
    Flip 2 and 3 in those directions. The URL comes first, and be sure to put a space after it.

    Parent
    Im already (none / 0) (#132)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:04:29 PM EST
    confused

    Parent
    well then (none / 0) (#137)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:51:51 PM EST
    It works both ways. I always use the word first and then the link.

    It's even more foolproof than I thought. works with spaces or no spaces as well.

    Parent

    Oh, ok! (none / 0) (#153)
    by ruffian on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 09:27:32 PM EST
    Sorry! Truly magic!

    Parent
    How to link (none / 0) (#129)
    by waldenpond on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 04:01:02 PM EST
    if you ever forget, simply use the search options for 'how to link'

    how to link

    Parent

    this is how its done (none / 0) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 02:53:45 PM EST
    I Sold Everything To Buy A Lamborghini And Drive Across The Country

    Richard Jordan had everything he was told to want: cars, a new house, and a fiancee. Then his fiancee left him. So he sold everything, bought a Lamborghini Gallardo  and set out across America. This is his amazing story.

    This is a love story, but not a conventional one. Sure, there's a woman. There always is. But it's when the woman split that the real romance began. This is the story of Richard Jordan, a man who lost love and then found it again in an exotic Italian sports car and the open American road. Jordan's journey would take him across the country and back again multiple times as he racked up nearly 100,000 miles on a car so expensive, most owners rarely drive at all.



    doesnt this make you feel better? (none / 0) (#112)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:08:38 PM EST

    Millionaires make a comeback

    No group was immune to the downturn. In 2008, as the financial crisis raged, the stock market hit bottom and the Great Recession ate into the economy, the number of millionaires in the United States plunged.

    But last year the number of millionaires bounced up sharply, new data show.

    And after that decline and rebound, the millionaire class held a larger percentage of the country's wealth than it did in 2007.



    just ot weird to comment on (none / 0) (#128)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Jun 11, 2010 at 03:52:02 PM EST
    and must be experienced

    Sexual Congress


    This site determines the most attractive members of the 111th United States Congress.