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Thursday Open Thread

I'm off to the jail and court today.

I'm wondering if the iPad would be a good way to go from basic Spanish comprehension to becoming fluent, particularly with verb tenses. Most of the apps I see focus on vocabulary. Any ideas?

BTD - Busy day for me too. Talk to ya'll tonight.

Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Gulf, cont. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:08:42 PM EST
    NYT article

    The scientists assert that the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and other agencies have been slow to investigate the magnitude of the spill and the damage it is causing in the deep ocean. They are especially concerned about getting a better handle on problems that may be occurring from large plumes of oil droplets that appear to be spreading beneath the ocean surface.

    The scientists point out that in the month since the Deepwater Horizon oil rig exploded, the government has failed to make public a single test result on water from the deep ocean. And the scientists say the administration has been too reluctant to demand an accurate analysis of how many gallons of oil are flowing into the sea from the gushing oil well.

    "It seems baffling that we don't know how much oil is being spilled," Sylvia Earle, a famed oceanographer, said Wednesday on Capitol Hill. "It seems baffling that we don't know where the oil is in the water column."

    The administration acknowledges that its scientific resources are stretched by the disaster, but contends that it is moving to get better information, including a more complete picture of the underwater plumes.

    "We're in the early stages of doing that, and we do not have a comprehensive understanding as of yet of where that oil is," Jane Lubchenco, the NOAA administrator, told Congress on Wednesday. "But we are devoting all possible resources to understanding where the oil is and what its impact might be."

    The administration has mounted a huge response to the spill, deploying 1,105 vessels to try to skim oil, burn it and block it from shorelines. As part of the effort, the federal government and the Gulf Coast states have begun an extensive effort to catalog any environmental damage to the coast. The Environmental Protection Agency is releasing results from water sampling near shore. In most places, save for parts of Louisiana, the contamination appears modest so far.

    The big scientific question now is what is happening in deeper water. While it is clear that water samples have been taken, the results have not been made public.

    ....."A vast ecosystem is being exposed to contaminants right now, and nobody's watching it," Mr. Steiner said. "That seems to me like a catastrophic failure on the part of NOAA."

    .....Oceanographers have also criticized the Obama administration over its reluctance to force BP, the oil company responsible for the spill, to permit an accurate calculation of the flow rate from the undersea well. The company has refused to permit scientists to send equipment to the ocean floor that would establish the rate with high accuracy.

    ....Scientists have long theorized that a shallow spill and a spill in the deep ocean -- this one is a mile down -- would behave quite differently. A 2003 report by the National Research Council predicted that the oil in a deepwater blowout could break into fine droplets, forming plumes of oil mixed with water that would not quickly rise to the surface.

    That prediction appeared to be confirmed Saturday when the researchers aboard the Pelican reported that they had detected immense plumes that they believed were made of oil particles. The results were not final, and came as a surprise to the government. They raise a major concern, that sea life in concentrated areas could be exposed to a heavy load of toxic materials as the plumes drift through the sea.



    I've never felt so helpless about (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:19:02 PM EST
    a catastrophe. I don't trust any of the information that comes out, certainly not from BP or the government. But even the scientists have limited access. I trust them the most, but what good does that do? just makes me want to scream.

    Parent
    The truth is coming out aeons slower than (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:56:52 PM EST
    the oil but with its same lack of transparency.  There is no silver lining to this catastrophe, but the reporting of independent scientific criticism does offer a pouter sliver. As noted from the time of the blow, there has been seemingly unquestioned acceptance of the situation stated by BP and its handmaidens, the Coast Guard and Department of Interior/MMS. This includes the NYT reporting and its editorials.  The underestimates (i.e., cover-ups) began immediately and have continued. Today, as we mark the first month's anniversary, the NOAA flagship research vessel, Ronald Brown,  is not on the scene, having been redirected from off the coast of Africa only a week ago.  In the case of national disaster it is unfathomable that BP is the lead agency, to the point of having the Coast Guard enforce its rules.  BP should be relieved of its role, it is not as Admiral Landry stated a "responsible spiller".  Robert Gibbs, in his press conference, is not only flip in his responses but dismissive. BP, in my view, wanted to save the well's investment, initially, to the detriment of the response.  Everything tried has been done so with the qualifier that it has never been tried, and, to date, everything tried has failed.   President Obama needs to provide more leadership, and seize BP's assets, hold them in escrow, and give the job to the US Navy with the support of the scientific community. At last night's State Dinner, the description of the soiree included tablecloths of bold Mayan blue stripes in ripples of water--my hope was that they would be stained with oil to remind the revelers, including the President of Mexico and Ken Salazar, of the horror that is the Gulf of Mexico.

    Parent
    This is SO depressing (none / 0) (#37)
    by nycstray on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:15:08 PM EST
    I can't even follow the destruction going on, or the freakin' way they are "handling" this . . . when I'm not on the verge of tears about it, my blood is boiling.

    Parent
    Yes its been a slow-mo response (none / 0) (#68)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:02:37 PM EST
    As of yesterday the EPA gave BP 24 hours to come up with a less toxic dispersant. Or quit using them, I guess, tho that didn't seem to be an option. Why not? The dispersants could really complicate things. And it is about time that NOAA research ship gets to the scene.

    Its been very confusing apparently for the industry and the government.

    IF the well is not capped soon, and IF it keeps gushing at these rates, then the gulf is in danger during a hurricane for the oil to be redistributed over a much greater area than it is even now. Do you think the US could be in danger of international suits if other countries on the gulf are negatively affected? Or would it only be BP. I mean the US signed off on the well and I think it is in US waters.

    Parent

    A couple of weeks ago I read (none / 0) (#74)
    by observed on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:10:47 PM EST
    a comment on The Washington Note from someone Steve Clemons knows who works for the govt in this area who  said that people are saying we'd have to consider using a nuke to stop the spill.. it's that big a disaster.

    The only upside is that it will open the door to more offshore oil exploration.
    "Huh", you say? But with this well closed down---and obviously it's got a LOT of oil---we'll need to replace this supply with other wells.

    Parent

    Geez! (none / 0) (#80)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:14:19 PM EST
    I can't see how using a nuke would work, but I'm not an engineer. Still, doesn't it seem like it would have the potential to widen what used to be a pipe and is now a rent in the ocean floor? Plus add to that the nuke waste. Poor damn fish.

    Parent
    I'm not advising it.. just giving the (none / 0) (#84)
    by observed on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:17:48 PM EST
    flavor of desperation. Explosives are used to seal oil wells, right?

    Parent
    just googled around (none / 0) (#90)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:26:02 PM EST
    and yes indeed nukes have been used by the Russians a number of times to seal underwater wells.

    This is an interesting post from americablog who quotes crooks and liars. one snippet:

    The ideas BP has brought to the table all seem to ignore the simplest solution: permanently destroying the well.


    Parent
    Blowing up the well may be the (none / 0) (#97)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:35:18 PM EST
    best remedy, hardly a good one, but the best.  This is what BP has been avoiding.  Nuking the wells is way too extreme, but  explosives  equivalent to tactical nukes?  

    Parent
    Reading these pieces, it's clear that (none / 0) (#99)
    by observed on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:38:52 PM EST
    Obama's response to this has been worse than Bush's to Katrina---just saying.
    He's probably still looking for ways to bring both sides together.

    Parent
    Ironically, Bush probably (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:08:49 PM EST
    would have been better with an oil well crisis, and Obama better with Katrina.

    But we don't get to choose.

    Parent

    That's my first laugh on the topic in the (none / 0) (#146)
    by observed on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:53:34 PM EST
    last month. I'm actually quite furious to read that the problem could have been solved immediately by destroying the well (I did not know this).

    Parent
    Were the wells as deep? (none / 0) (#103)
    by nycstray on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:43:41 PM EST
    and aren't there other explosives down there?

    What and F'ing mess. What's sad is that no real lesson will be learned by those that need them . . .

    Parent

    I don't think the correlation is exact (none / 0) (#121)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:34:19 PM EST
    But am not 100% sure.

    I found a picture - pictures really help me think and understand (visual person). Its here. From the picture I can see that if several holes were drilled around the main well shaft and explosives like Dan says are inserted and exploded the shaft could be squeezed shut.

    A couple of problems. Would it be BP who decides to essentially destroy the well and their multi million dollar investment? Maybe they will weigh that dollar amount against what they can expect to pay out in damages and wait. They are after all a for profit corporation and as such their primary interests are not to residents along the gulf - or the natural environment either. Could the US government force BP to destroy the well, or could the US use our military to destroy the well?

    Parent

    BP now concedes (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:12:40 PM EST
    Leak is bigger than previous estimates.  Only took 4 weeks.  Oh yeah... EPA is asking them to switch to a different dispersent.  Only took 4 weeks.

    I am finding the approach by this administration curious.  Why are they covering for BP?  They are starting to get attacked by the media, yet keep sitting back and letting BP set the stage.  

    Finally, Landrieu wants tax money.  Shouldn't she be sucking up to BP?  Maybe demanding they have their board take a vote to dump some money on her?

    Parent

    Yes, and the dispersant issue (none / 0) (#88)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:21:53 PM EST
    was discussed at the onset. Nalco (Naperville, IL) is the stock to buy, it seems, with BP having commandeered its production of Corexit. But, BP is really here to help you--they took out a full page ad in today's NYT, entitled: Gulf of Mexico Oil Spill (really a blow) Response. What we are doing. How to get more information. Among the drivel is "..on the surface, hundreds of boats of all sizes, including local fishing fleets are working together to contain the spill"  Fishing fleets?  No, Glass bottom tourist boats or Kayaks?  Do we have a US Navy? This is like the Chernobyl response, the Soviets deployed a "sarcophagus" to contain the reactor, which was a few backhoes dumping cement to cover it up--just did not know what to do, Dr. Frankenstein's monster got out of hand. Called one of the BP help lines and did get a quick answer with a human being on the line--a very polite woman, who could not answer my question (a simple one) and no one at her site would know either, but she did give me the BP website.  I will try it on the second month's anniversary, I think.

    Parent
    What was your question Dan? (none / 0) (#158)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu May 20, 2010 at 08:25:37 PM EST
    Sorry, Fox, I just checked back. (none / 0) (#162)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 21, 2010 at 03:12:27 PM EST
    My question was what plans BP had to provide oil containment booms for the Florida Keys, given that oil was in the eddies and probably, the loop.

    Parent
    Were you posing it as a rhetorical question? (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri May 21, 2010 at 03:33:49 PM EST
    Placing a wake up call? And/or were you hoping there may there some plan in the works. If I were you, I'd probably check all of the above.

    I mean, why doesn't effing MoveOn.org organize a MAJOR phone jamming campaign or take out a full page ad in the NYTimes, or something?

    Parent

    I live in Key West, (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 21, 2010 at 06:07:30 PM EST
    so everyone in the Florida Keys is on edge.  In some way or another, everything and everyone here is dependent on tourism--fishing, scuba diving, spear-fishing and all forms of water-related sports.  In turn, this tourism is dependent on the ecologically sensitive environs.  The Keys are quite remarkable with atolls and lakes miles out in the middle of the Gulf or Atlantic ocean in which the water is so shallow you can actually stand up; the coral reef is critically important ecologically and for protection of the islands. For example, Key West is 140 miles from Miami out in the middle of the Gulf/Atlantic and there are, essentially, no waves until beyond the reef. Our local governments have been having workshops and there has been an outpouring of community support from residents. BP gave $10,000 to the Florida Keys Community College to train 100 people in a basic four-hour course to qualify volunteers to do beach clean-up in light of the toxic dangers. The College has requested another $131,000 from BP to train 585 people to deal with different levels of hazardous materials, but that request has gone unanswered. So, a tuition of $575 is now being charged to boat captains and other workers Apparently, an on-line course is in the works, thanks to BP.   BP is controlling all  containment efforts, and many captains are frustrated in their attempts to help and are  left to sit on shore. Of course, the Coast Guard is the major spokespersons and enforcer  for BP.  

    Parent
    Dan, I appreciate your generosity in (none / 0) (#165)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri May 21, 2010 at 07:36:32 PM EST
    sharing your experience of what's happening on the ground in the Keys. This is the kind of first hand insight we don't get on the nooze.

    Year before last, I went to Fort Lauderdale for a few months and spent some time meandering up and down the coast. The last couple of weeks I was there, I said let's go to the Keys, because I don't think they're going to 'be around' (as they were) for much longer. Ended up doing a car trip (what else) to Key West and was appropriately touched by the unique beauty and ambiance of the area. I drank it all in and hold it dear in my heart.

    I hope, hope, hope the weather gives you favorable conditions to spare the Keys and its inhabitants -- human and otherwise. Yay, mile marker one.

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#166)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 21, 2010 at 07:41:18 PM EST
    for your kind comment.

    Parent
    Kevin Costner (none / 0) (#85)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:18:22 PM EST
    Has anyone heard about this? Strange but true, Kevin Costner, the actor, has a device that uses centrifugal force and separates oil from water. A clean technology developed after the Alaskan spill. If this works and is not a pin in a haystack then oil actually could be reclaimed.

    link

    Parent

    Nifty invention... (none / 0) (#105)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:48:54 PM EST
    for small contained spills...don't see how you can run the entire Gulf through an oil seperator though...too massive and too polluted at this point, imko.

    But maybe it can minimize the damage.

    Parent

    yeah, my thought too (none / 0) (#112)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:08:13 PM EST
    And it would take time for the technology to be up scaled. Also, the dispersants are keeping the oil submerged. And it seems that oil extruded with gas at deep water pressure and temperature sometimes does not rise to the surface right away. But the separator couldn't hurt.

    Parent
    This is quite maddening (none / 0) (#147)
    by MKS on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:58:40 PM EST
    I'm glad Costner has a super-duper machine that might work to clean up the oil.

    But we are looking for answers in the hobbies of Hollywood's stars?  What desperation.....It is even comical....in a tragic sort of way.

    Okay, now back to averting my eyes.....

    Parent

    I find this all confusing (5.00 / 0) (#150)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 07:27:12 PM EST
    and I suspect I'm not the only one. From this wonderful graphic (which appears to be to scale) it would make perfect sense to just blow up the well. They are already drilling another one - the "relief" well, and from the looks of it it is involved and going to take a lot of time. And they'll have another well shaft, so it has to just be $$ that is preventing them from taking this course.

    IMO it is time for the US government to tell BP what to do, or to destroy the well itself.

    Triage. After the well is stopped and the "blood loss" ended, then clean up can start in earnest and Kevin Costner's device can be added to all the efforts of so many. It is a clean technology and something evidently he has worked on with his scientist brother since Alaska spill.

    Parent

    Remember Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea? (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by MKS on Thu May 20, 2010 at 07:40:21 PM EST
    Why can't they send Richard Basehart out there to fix this in that high-tech, glass-nosed sub?....

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by squeaky on Thu May 20, 2010 at 08:17:49 PM EST
    If you are going to go teevee fantasy land.. best idea would to just cancel the series.

    Parent
    Good idea! :) And... (none / 0) (#153)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 08:11:25 PM EST
    We should get James Cameron to send that really nice undersea creature from The Abyss to make peace! Hell, at this point any sea creature or vehicle would do. Where's Godzilla these days?

    Parent
    That was a Cameron movie? (none / 0) (#154)
    by MKS on Thu May 20, 2010 at 08:12:42 PM EST
    It was quite sweet....

    Parent
    See Hedy Lamarr: (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by oculus on Thu May 20, 2010 at 08:36:17 PM EST
    Are Senators Learning? (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:19:25 PM EST
    Maybe we need a "No Senator Left Behind" program.

    "I've never used an ATM, so I don't know what the fees are," Nelson said, adding that he gets his cash from bank tellers, just not automatic ones. "It's true, I don't know how to use one.

    "But I could learn how to do it just like I've . . . I swipe to get my own gas, buy groceries. I know about the holograms."

    By "holograms," Nelson clarified that he meant the bar codes on products read by automatic scanners in the checkout lanes at stores such as Lowe's and Menard's.  

    "I go and get my own seating assignment on an airplane," Nelson said. "I mean, I'm not without some skills. I just haven't had the need to use an ATM. link



    It's ok Nelson.... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:44:25 PM EST
    I know how to use an ATM and you're better off not using an ATM...take it from me.

    Parent
    My husband and I finished watching (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:21:36 PM EST
    the last four installments of The Pacific last night.  He had tears in his eyes when everyone got to go home and then they showed the real photos of the men and one woman who were depicted.  Then we talked about how they came home and made lives but still had the nightmares, but they made lives.  We wondered together if they had as high a ratio of PTSD victims who could not put lives together as we do now, and if they had less what did they do differently that could help our soldiers now?

    i just finished reading Eugene Sledge's (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by byteb on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:30:36 PM EST
    book: With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa.

     It's outstanding. I especially recommend it to those fans of The Pacific.

    After the war, Sledge gave up hunting because he could no longer bear to inflict pain on any living creature.

    He wrote a second memoir about his post war service in China with the Marines that deals with the psychological impact the war had on him.

    I'm not sure if it was Sledge or another Marine from The Pacific whose family remembered that it was literally decades before they heard their father speak of the war. I think in those days, no spoke of what happened to them. My father's good friend was a ball turret gunner during the war...he was only a teenager at the time...Dad (another WW2 vet) said they never talked about the war.

    Parent

    I think it's common (5.00 / 3) (#149)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 20, 2010 at 07:26:15 PM EST
    that returning soldiers didn't speak about the war. My father wouldn't talk about it ever. He was in France and Germany. After he died, I found his original army papers in a file and looked up the units and places he had been. A biochemist in real life, he was a medical supply officer at field hospitals in France that dealt with the wounded right off the battlefield. His papers mentioned the concentration camp training he had received. I know he saw a lot of death and people in pain. His hatred of all things German lasted the rest of his life, another 35+ years. As did his rejection of anything remotely religious that suggested the existence of a higher being. I also found a zillion photos of him and his "army mates" (I have no idea what you call people you served in a war with) and it's odd because everyone is smiling in all of them, as if they are having fun. I wish I knew who the men were, I bet their families would like copies. I don't even know if the men in the photos were killed in action or, like my dad, live to 80.

    I really liked Pacific. It would never occur to me to read a book about war, and with my father refusing to discuss it, it's one of the few glimpses I've gotten of how awful it was for those who served, how terrified they must have been and how their lives were undoubtedly permanently scarred by it in so many ways.

    Parent

    Jeralyn, you might want to try (none / 0) (#160)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu May 20, 2010 at 08:41:26 PM EST
    "With the Old Breed." Sledge wrote it in 1981, after being tormented for years by his memories.

    I never met him, but taught at a college about 40 miles away from him for a time while he was alive. He was a wonderful classroom instructor,from everything I've heard, and an excellent scientist.  Based on your comments, I think you'd like the edition I read, in which the last pages of the book, some 20-30IIRC were  about his life and his re-adjustment after the war.

    He was present at two of the three worst battles fought by the US during WWII, Peleilu and Okinawa. I hope you read it, not for any glorious content, because he didn't write about the glory of combat. It does explain a lot of what veterans have experienced, and I empathized strongly with it. It also might shed some light on your father's life and attitudes.

    As far as "Army Buddies," it suffices. Among my comrades-in-arms, we call each other brothers, brothers-in-arms, comrades, or silly names, like 'rice paddy daddies,' 'pogues,' limp-d!cks, or other insults.  

    'Brothers' comes closest to describing the relationship, though. After serving in combat with someone, you may not like him, but he's your brother, and you'll go to the wall for him. And go again. And again. Even 30 years later, if one of your brothers calls and needs you, you go and do what you can. Just like with children, the thought of sacrifice is not there. He's your brother and he needs you, so you go.

    What I hear from the younger generations is that  the term brothers is still used, irrespective of sex/gender.

    I still feel this way and act this way toward my brothers-in-arms. I suppose I always will. I think the love I have for my comrades is very similar to the love I have for my child.

    Parent

    I'm going to read it (none / 0) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:10:46 PM EST
    I had lost (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by lentinel on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:53:28 PM EST
    track.
    Your husband is back from Afghanistan?
    This is great news.

    Parent
    He is (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:13:31 PM EST
    He was with a special forces setup so he was only deployed for six months.  They rotate them out every four to six months to avoid over stressing them now if they are working in those very intense areas.  They encourage them to work out a lot too, I don't know if that really helps though. They work 24/7, no days off, no time off other than sleeping.  He was very tired when he got home.  He took 30 days off.

    Parent
    Thinking about it (none / 0) (#9)
    by CST on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:29:29 PM EST
    one big difference might be in percentage of people who served.  These days it seems like they come home to a society that has no real concept of war.  I'm not sure that was true back then.  At least at that time there was a larger support group, and everyone went through it together.  Whether you served or not, I don't know that you could have lived through that period without being acutely aware of the war on a daily basis.  Your life would have been affected by it one way or another.

    Parent
    I'm not sure that makes a difference (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Cream City on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:59:42 PM EST
    in PTSD, much as I might wish it were so when I try to support my student vets today.

    Of my father and many uncles who served on every front, collectively, in WWII -- all were affected, but the one who was most depressed, for decades, was the one who had served in the Pacific.  Now, a survey of one hardly is useful; he could have been that way before the war, for all I know, but not according to family stories.

    I do think that for most of them, from what they said, what may have helped a lot, actually, was that the war came after the devastating Depression.  They already had a survivor mentality; they already knew that they could get through anything.

    And they knew they had FDR and ER, who had been with them through the Depression decade.  That seemed to have helped a lot; they trusted their White House, and down the food chain through most of the military, too.  Of course, they all were Dems. :-)

    Parent

    I'm sure (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by CST on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:12:26 PM EST
    it didn't necessarily make a difference in terms of their experiences on a personal or internal level.  Although I do wonder if society as a whole wasn't more accepting or understanding of it.  That's not to say that the depression and ptsd weren't there.  Just that there was still a place for them at home.

    I really don't know, I'm definitely just sort of guessing here.  The only person I know who served back then was my grandfather and he was probably one of the most cheerfull people I've ever known.  Then again, I don't think I ever heard him talk about the war, which I am a little upset about now as it is too late to ask him.

    It is hard, I have no concept of how to try and be usefull today.  I know that it's far from my reality.

    Parent

    No understanding... (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:19:16 PM EST
    I think you're onto something there...I too don't have a clue what its like, and the one vet I know personally only talks about it when he gets really hammered...and most every sentence describing the war/occupation ends with..."you can't understand" or "I can't explain".

    Parent
    Iraq vet... (none / 0) (#18)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:21:06 PM EST
    to specify.

    Another difference could be at least the WWII vets can somewhat justify the atrocity they experienced as a "just cause", which ain't so easy for our returning vets today.

    Parent

    I can't imagine (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by CST on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:35:34 PM EST
    having to justify killing someone to myself.  No matter the cause.  Or for that matter, how do you deal with seeing someone close to you die, regardless who did it.  And not just die in a hospital, but sudden death, of a vibrant younger person.  I mean, I have lost a few friends, and that's been incredibly hard to deal with, but I never saw it happen, and while there is some guilt in the "what could i have done to prevent this" there is no "why them not me" factor.

    So I can only imagine what it must be like, and if it were me, I am not sure I would want to talk about it either.

    Parent

    It's terrible but you get used to it (none / 0) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:08:36 PM EST
    My husband is sadly used to it.  And I'm used to people I know dying and mostly fathers disappearing from their families.  I'm used to it.  Seeing someone dead or someone killed or die in front of my husband is not shocking to him anymore.  I remember a much more innocent man ten years ago.  It isn't that it has changed him in a bad way technically.  Many people in the world deal with, grow up with, and live with a great deal of death and violence.  He was pretty innocent though in that respect.  I remember when the AP put the photo up of the Marine that was wounded in Afghanistan and his family got very upset because he had just died and they felt it was a violation of their privacy.  When I looked at the photo it looked to me like he was still alive though, his eyes were open and seemed to register.  My husband looked at it though and told me No, that the soldier had died probably a few seconds before the photo was snapped but he was dead.  I suppose it was that terribleness, of consciousness newly leaving his body, that upset his family so much.

    Parent
    I doubt if many WW2 combat vets (none / 0) (#24)
    by brodie on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:29:11 PM EST
    opened up about their experiences back then ("opening up" was something that came along in the 70s, iirc).  And the civilians had no clue about what they went through due to wartime censorship and the fairly sanitized and heroic picture that had been instilled in the population about war.  The military in its ignorance of the medical condition wasn't there to help them either.

    Not much frank talk happened with returning vets.  They just somehow got back into civilian life.  But that's not to say the problems went away.  They were sublimated and otherwise just not addressed over the years, and probably in many cases played themselves out in neurotic and destructive ways that went undiagnosed as to cause.    

    Parent

    Last year, when my aunt's (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Anne on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:31:33 PM EST
    second husband died, and my brother and I - along with other family members - had to clean out her house in preparation for selling it (she is in a nursing home), we came across a treasure trove of material related to her first husband's (the one I think of as my uncle) WWII service in the Marines, in the Pacific theatre.

    We always knew the bare bones of it: he was critically injured on Iwo, lost the use of his legs, and was awarded both the Silver and Bronze Stars; he never talked about it much, that I remember.  

    We found the original telegram his parents received (he and my aunt were engaged, but not married, when he went overseas), telling them that he had been injured.  The letters he wrote home that assured them he was doing okay, but telling them there were some serious things they were going to have to know.  Funny little drawings - he was very artistic, and when the bullets he took in his arm/hand made it impossible for him to pursue a career as an artist, his ambidexterity and a lot of practice resulted in him having a successful commercial career and lots of wonderful works in watercolor and pen and ink that now grace the walls of our families' homes.  Photos of him from the hospital, and of all the nurses and docs who cared for him.  His fellow patients.  The coins struck by the bullet he took the first time he was injured, the bullet itself, and the notes that described that incident.  The actual citations that accompanied the medals, that described how he was injured and his bravery in service of the men under his command.  

    He was a hero.  And I would probably never have known that if I hadn't been in a position of having to go through all these papers.

    Perhaps more touching were the reams of letters and notes my aunt had saved after his death, in 1972, from bladder cancer.  Letter after letter from men who had served with him, all expressing their love and respect for this quiet man who had the heart of a lion.

    I was 19 when he died, so I never appreciated the man he was underneath what I knew - to me, he was just this great, good-humored man who never let being in a wheelchair stop him from doing anything.  Who always sent hand-painted cards for birthdays and holidays.  I wept for what I never knew until now, and because my aunt's Alzheimer's is so advanced I can't ask her to tell me more.

    If only I had known then what I know now - the pain of lost opportunities.


    Parent

    One "good", roaring drunk (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:43:50 PM EST
    and a lot of that stuff comes right to the surface; too fast, too soon. Seen it. And how many vets and "bystanders" are dead, or were-are doing time because of it..

    Parent
    Oh, most of my uncles talked (none / 0) (#72)
    by Cream City on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:08:46 PM EST
    a lot about it, and -- of course -- we heard even more from my dad.  Just not much from the uncle who had served in the Pacific.

    And time at a VFW post will tell you that there are WWII vets who just love to tell war stories.

    Parent

    My Grandfather was in the Pacific (none / 0) (#86)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:20:11 PM EST
    Never spoke a word about it, or much else.  One of the actors had a tattoo that was depicted that was on my grandfather's forearm.  I have no idea what it means yet.  It made me gasp a little when I saw it, my childhood leapt out at me.  Nobody I knew had such marks other than my grandfather and whenever he rolled his sleeves up there it was on his forearm.

    Parent
    I remember hearing an interview (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:39:31 PM EST
    with Robert Graves on the BBC in which he said that "the body secretes certain chemicals in intense, prolonged combat situations that take a good ten years to get out of your system."  

    Parent
    What it means to put one's LIFE on the line (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ellie on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:36:25 PM EST
    I think you touched on an important and often overlooked point, sometimes even by people who experience it directly: the common (and gross) misconception that, in strife, one's life is on the line only during active combat, and that everything is magically A-Okay afterwards.

    Not true: when someone's life gets put on the line his/her WHOLE LIFE is on the line.

    The chickenhawk cheerleaders of war war war don't appreciate what they ask of vets and their families, who still have to live with the "invisible wounds" long after the firing stops. People heal at different rates and different ways but it's the rare soldier that comes out of it unscathed.

    Parent

    Whereas, with Bushco (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:37:57 PM EST
    it's: "Down here in Texas, yer on yer own" (thank you Coens)

    Sink 'r swim boy. Whatever yew need's been privatized.

    Parent

    The whole country may (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by brodie on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:14:37 PM EST
    have in some ways gone through WW2 together, but only those in combat knew what real combat, real war, was like, something the noncombatant statesider civilians only got highly censored glimpses of back then.  I recall from histories of that period too that WW2 combat vets were very reluctant to openly discuss in detail with friends and family what they'd experienced, so awful were the memories.  Then add the military's relative lack of sophistication and acknowledgment of the problem, and you have a situation where the problem is never addressed by the medical establishment for those vets from 65 yrs ago.  

    And, yes, I'd suspect the PTSD rates then as compared to now were roughly comparable, though today we've mostly evolved in acknowledging it as a legitimate medical condition.  Whether the VA has been up to the task in handling this with vets over many wars, I don't know, but tend to doubt.

    Parent

    Yes, we discussed that possibility (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:34:19 PM EST
    And that even though the soldiers were very wounded, that the nation was there with them to some degree.  They did not come home to a society that was largely alienated from where they had been and what they had faced.  The whole country was tired and hurting together for the same reasons.  The soldiers were out there for years too.  Korea was much the same way, we have a Korean Vet down the street who talks about being in Korea for two years and surviving the winters while at war.

    Parent
    MT (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:51:14 PM EST
    Did you see that recent Frontline program about that group of guys who came back from Iraq and flipped out; one of whom, who had been diagnosed with PTSD and TBI, was just sentenced to 50 years in the hang 'em high state for attempted murder?

    Halfway through, I started wondering if all this over-medicating them and sending them back out beyond the wire in Iraq was nothing but a recipe for disaster, in that many of these guys having SERIOUS problems were being given no chance to emotionally integrate their experience; just dampening it with more pills and going back into the mouth of hell.

    Parent

    On the Web (none / 0) (#26)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:35:20 PM EST
    Frontline makes its programs available for viewing on its Web site the day after they air.  This one is here.

    Parent
    I didn't see that particular Frontline (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:51:30 PM EST
    I am somewhat shielded too from some of the soldier problems because at Fort Rucker I'm surrounded by pilots and officers.  And it isn't that this group is not affected, but they are affected differently than infantry and NCOs who end up experiencing most of the physical attacks and damage.  When I was in Colorado over January, some of our friends at Fort Carson though were pretty upset by some of the things that troops returning home had done recently.  Organizing murder plots, murder for hire and such things.  At the start of the Iraq War the Bush administration did much to deny that our troops were beginning to suffer from PTSD, they seem to be much more carefully screening now but we have years of ignored damaged to attempt to catch up with and discover.

    Parent
    The army is still denying it (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Jen M on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:21:18 PM EST
    soldiers aren't suffering from brain injury, doncha know, it is pre existing personality disorders.

    http://www.thenation.com/article/disposable-soldiers

    Parent

    oh doody (none / 0) (#131)
    by Jen M on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:22:09 PM EST
    I forgot the link rule.

    Mea culpa, I hope it doesn't mess stuff up


    Parent

    lots of booze and smokes (none / 0) (#47)
    by Dadler on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:30:54 PM EST
    And a lot of repression. The kind so widespread and severe that it spawned the social rebellion of the 60's. Though, one has to say, it was still a pre-television time post war. Not for much longer, but when WWII vets returned home, society was still more front porch, street corner, around the dinner table oriented.  Other people, and the comfort they offer, are vital.

    Parent
    That last episode had me choked up too (none / 0) (#66)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:58:42 PM EST
    The whole series was very thought provoking when all was said and done. I don't know how anyone recovers from what they went through, or even what recovery means in that situation.

    Really, my primary reaction through most of the series was anger. I just can't believe there was not a better way to handle the attack from Japan. So many lives wasted, in my view. I have never studied what alternatives to going island by island in that manner, if any, might have been considered at the time.

    I know it is easy to say in hindsight from the modern 'global village'. Maybe we had to go through that to get to where we are today.

    Parent

    Just to make double sure (none / 0) (#67)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:02:27 PM EST
    By wasted I don't mean that they did not give their lives for their country. Of course they did. But their country maybe could have found a way to settle the conflict without asking for that sacrifice.

    Parent
    Yes, they did have at least as many (none / 0) (#129)
    by scribe on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:19:43 PM EST
    PTSD victims, on a percentage basis.  It was just that no one talked about it, except in the really extreme cases of "shell shock", where the guy came home and was nothing like he had been - often wholly dinged out.  How many WWII vets never talked about their experiences?  How much PTSD was buried that way?  A lot.

    Off the top of my head (and at 30 years' remove), I can think of two in my hometown of about 6,000 who had it bad.  One was childlike - totally blew his personality away.  He went nuts under shelling.  The other was alternately hyperreligious (Catholic) and a raging (loud, but not swinging AFAIK) drunk.  He was a Marine whose job on Saipan was taking on Japanese bunkers with a shotgun, and who'd been wounded.

    It turned out, according to an article I remember reading many years ago and synopsizing why there seemed to be so many more Vietnam era vets who evinced PTSD, that one of the things which seemed to have ameliorated its onset in the WWII generation was the lengthy trips - in time - that they had to take to get "home".  They'd spend literally weeks in transit, often with the members of their unit (with whom they'd gone through the battles), waiting, on boats and otherwise kind of cooped up where they had little to do but talk amongst themselves and maybe play some sports and, in so doing, work themselves through it.  And their trips home often came after several weeks or months of post-combat, non-combat occupation duty.  Compare that to the Vietnam vets, who might spend a day or definitely less than a week going from knee-deep in the jungle or mud to getting cleaned up, separated from the men they'd been with for a year, packed onto an airplane with a bunch of strangers and, 20 or so hours later, arriving on the West Coast - where there was no outward sign of the country having any war going on at all.

    Don't forget, either, that Sledge had it bad.  I recall reading about him that his wife was told not to hug him in his sleep b/c the Okinawa experience was still with him such that he might think her a Japanese soldier and react accordingly.

    Parent

    ptsd (none / 0) (#133)
    by Jen M on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:28:55 PM EST
    as the psychological equivalent of the bends?

    Interesting.

    I have also heard that older people are less prone to ptsd than younger people. Wasn't the average age of the WWII soldier older than the subsequent wars?

    Parent

    I don't know the average age, but (none / 0) (#137)
    by christinep on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:02:32 PM EST
    remember that almost any male (without a physical deferment)served. My uncles on both sides of the family served in all the branches. My late dad (my wonderful dad) joined the Marines in his late 20s and was on a troop ship bound for Iwo Jima when he contracted malaria. So, in many ways for our family, malaria was a real "life saver." After he returned safely, and I was born, he wanted to name me Marine. The story goes that my mother said "no," and they chose a rhyming name; but, he did teach me the Marine Corps hymn as the first song that I ever learned. He had the dedication and discipline of the Marine; yet, he also understood full well the difference between the war-of-necessity and the war-of-convenience (the latter being Vietnam.) We talked a lot about war in the late 60s and early 70s.

    Parent
    Yes. Average age of WWII military (none / 0) (#155)
    by Cream City on Thu May 20, 2010 at 08:14:17 PM EST
    was 26.

    Average age of Vietnam military was 19.

    There 'tis.

    Parent

    My husband has anxiety (none / 0) (#167)
    by Militarytracy on Sun May 23, 2010 at 09:14:44 AM EST
    that has developed with is experiences.  It waxes and wanes.  I don't hold him in his sleep either.  Not since his first tour in Iraq and I tried to do that one night after he came home and he almost punched me out.  He was often shaken awake though and running to the flight line that first year of George Bush's takeover of Iraq, and it was never good. After six months, the insurgency began and there were ammo dumps all over the Sunni triangle from Saddam.  There was also a lot of success early on in shooting down our helicopters.  But my husband doesn't have severe PTSD, he is still very on track with his life, his plans, his goals, his kids and grandkids and wife.  He will probably always have some form of anxiety though that seems to be most pronounced when he is attempting to sleep.  I'm sure that Bagram didn't make any of that better since it is mortared usually at least once a week.  He transitioned home a lot easier this time, but it helps that we've done it before.  I know to not schedule anything that will involve noise or large crowds for at least a few months.  Large crowds make a lot of them climb a wall.  Still, at any given time, a large crowd can become an anxiety though for my husband.  Large crowds attract suicide bombers and all sorts of unpredictablity and death in the places he has been.

    Parent
    Cover story this week in San Diego (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by oculus on Sun May 23, 2010 at 11:00:29 AM EST
    Reader (this is the publication to which Dadler contributes): Daddy's home.  Now what?

    Parent
    Very good write up (none / 0) (#169)
    by Militarytracy on Sun May 23, 2010 at 11:35:55 AM EST
    Our daughter "matured" when my husband was gone once.  He came home in literal shock.  I discovered there is a giant "process" that goes on between dad and daughter as she enters "the zone" of sharing her life with another.  He missed a portion of it and I don't know that he has ever felt like he regained his footing.  My husband is still so mean to anyone she dates, he starts out that way right out of the gate.  Usually I have to sit him down and give him a talking to :)  He has been very different with the new boyfriend though.  Don't know why.  I have little doubt that we do this deployment thing smoother because we married in our early 30s.  He had been married before, but I was single and then a single mom period....never knew anything different.  I do get very stuck in my routine though when he is gone.  It is second nature to me more so than being married.  I can get pretty dysfunctional and protective of my "system and routine".  That went much smoother this time though too.

    Parent
    Lt. Commander dad re "boobs" (none / 0) (#170)
    by oculus on Sun May 23, 2010 at 12:04:38 PM EST
    He doesn't beat around the bush!  Interesting couple.  If he'd just do it my way. . . .

    Parent
    Libertarians (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by ScottW714 on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:42:19 PM EST
    Bruce Bartlett reflects on Rand Paul: "As we know from history, the free market did not lead to a breakdown of segregation... Thus we have a perfect test of the libertarian philosophy and an indisputable conclusion: it didn't work. Freedom did not lead to a decline in racism; it only got worse. I don't believe Rand is a racist; I think he is a fool who is suffering from the foolish consistency syndrome that affects all libertarians."

    The market is tanking yet again (none / 0) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:03:07 PM EST
    because it is not based on our economic health but on the promise of government bailout.

    Great time for the Deficit Reduction (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by MO Blue on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:22:00 PM EST
    committee to come out with recommendations to gut SS. Not good for old folks but it would prop up Wall Street. Which is IMO the objective.

    Parent
    Completely agree (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:27:11 PM EST
    Yet Wall Street is only smoke and mirrors now, a conglomeration of bought and solds and chopped and resold, it's mostly baby laxative now :) When we put the money into the hands of people, they end up giving that money to other people for goods and services and that builds the base for an economy.  But not so if you are one of the Masters of the Universe, if you ask them it is the trickle down that builds the base of an economy.....cracks me up.

    Parent
    IPad/phone language apps I like (none / 0) (#3)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 12:14:19 PM EST
    Are the ones that also give audio pronunciation. actually ,they probably all do that.  I have not looked into anything in the way of comprehensive lessons though.

    IBook tips you probably have found on your own: you can adjust the background brightness from within the book with the little icon in the upper right of the page. Also, the page turning animation changes based on how fast or slow you swipe the page, and where you swipe it. Purely a 'look and feel' thing, but makes it feel more like a real book .

    Speaking of jail... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:02:07 PM EST
    congratulations Wilson Chandler, you're officially a NY'er now, you got your first drug bust under your belt.

    I just hope Lebron doesn't like to party, our "finest" might scare him away from the Knicks, if the Dolans do not.

    Congrats to you too former Miss Russia...you're official now too.  Next time shop on the corner, much safer than stealing script pads and trying to con CVS, CVS is a deputy.

    wow (none / 0) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:14:57 PM EST
    Following intense media scrutiny  on his views on the landmark civil rights legislation of the 1960s, Republican Senate candidate Rand Paul released a statement today "unequivocally" asserting that "I will not support any efforts to repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964."

    oh well
    ok then

    Hehee. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by brodie on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:22:27 PM EST
    Though I believe the question still remains:  If he had been in the senate in 1964, would he have voted for the CR Act?

    Meanwhile, his (worthy) opponent's chances of taking that senate seat just went up about 50% in the last 24 hrs.

    I like the way this one is trending so far.  Gonna be tough in KY for sure, but with a libertarian absolutist like Rand Paul out there talking down long-settled CR law, in addition to disparaging the more recent Disabilities Act, we know there are going to be opportunities to pick up a senate seat where we don't often expect to.

    Thanks again to the entertaining Paul family, Rand and Ron.  And to Mrs Paul for the great cookies ...

    Parent

    Cookies? (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:25:45 PM EST
    I thought it was fish sticks.

    Mmmmmm, processed fish parts...

    Parent

    dont forget (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:27:20 PM EST
    Ru

    Parent
    Have you seen this? (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by lilburro on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:38:01 PM EST
    oh my god (none / 0) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:54:56 PM EST
    thats the greatest thing I have ever seen

    Parent
    I know!! (none / 0) (#32)
    by lilburro on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:01:57 PM EST
    "We are born naked and the rest is drag."

    Parent
    When has RuPaul ever NOT been exquisite? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Ellie on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:47:40 PM EST
    Cool concept, brilliant execution!

    Parent
    also (none / 0) (#23)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:29:04 PM EST
    I think its pretty important to find out if he REALLY believes this:

    Paul suggested to Rachel that the discussion could be turned on its head by saying that Rachel's line of thinking made it possible for the federal government to mandate that private businesses could not refuse entry to gun carrying people. Because of course, refusing to serve someone because they have a weapon and there might be a public safety issue, is the same as refusing to serve someone because they are black, gay or for some other bias of the owner


    Parent
    Sounds like a diversion to me (none / 0) (#139)
    by christinep on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:07:49 PM EST
    Confuse Civil Rights with property rights, etc. But, isn't that property rights/my rights/screw the other guys rights the basis of that "shimmering" Libertarianism ala Ayn Rand?
    (It is quite fun when you are 18...all the stuff about the individual over everyone else, say what?)

    Parent
    If a person is carrying a concealed weapon (none / 0) (#144)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:50:07 PM EST
    they can't refuse service since they wouldn't know a weapon is being carried. And if the person had a permit then it is all legal. The business owner does not have the right to search anyone. If it is an open carry then they better do in in Alaska and not California.

    But that is an aside and you are right. Equating someone who openly carries a weapon with a social demographic is absurd IMO.

    Parent

    but (none / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:22:10 PM EST
    And he concludes the statement this way, citing health care reform: "This much is clear: The federal government has far overreached in its power grabs."


    Parent
    This guy may beat Bush (none / 0) (#76)
    by Cream City on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:12:08 PM EST
    at Bushisms, soon to be renamed Paulisms?  Randisms?

    Parent
    Mitch (none / 0) (#79)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:13:37 PM EST
    is gonna have him fixed.  double quick.


    Parent
    isms? (none / 0) (#140)
    by christinep on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:09:32 PM EST
    What about BS-isms? Or adolescent me-first isms?

    Parent
    oooooh - startin to burn (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 01:34:14 PM EST
    UPDATE III: Here's Mitch McConnell spokesman Don Stewart:

        Among Senator McConnell's most vivid memories and most formative events in his career was watching his boss Sen. John Sherman Cooper help pull together the votes to break the filibuster and pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964. He has always considered the law a monumental achievement for the country and is glad to hear Dr. Paul supports it as well.


    That's very nice (none / 0) (#34)
    by brodie on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:08:12 PM EST
    and very handy of Mitch to come to Rand's defense, but trying to shield RP behind the warm glow of a pretty good liberal Republican from yesteryear, who actually believed in civil rights for all, just won't do.

    Rand needs to stand up on his own hind legs and state for the record whether he would have voted for the landmark CR bill in the first place.

    Meanwhile, JSC probably remains the last decent Repub to represent that curious border state.  Mitch McConnell is not remotely in his class ...

    Parent

    I would say that experience (none / 0) (#41)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:23:44 PM EST
    was not very formative in McConnell's career at all. If he even was involved, his integrity has gone downhill since then.

    Parent
    what could go wrong? (none / 0) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:02:58 PM EST
    Scientists in the US have succeeded in developing the first synthetic living cell.

    The researchers constructed a bacterium's "genetic software" and transplanted it into a host cell.

    The resulting microbe then looked and behaved like the species "dictated" by the synthetic DNA.

    The advance, published in Science, has been hailed as a scientific landmark, but critics say there are dangers posed by synthetic organisms.



    saw that (none / 0) (#39)
    by CST on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:18:46 PM EST
    it was interesting to me when they talked about the potential uses for that kind of technology.  I assumed it was going to be more medical in nature, but they are talking about creating bacteria that will clean up pollutants, etc...

    I know they already use bacteria for a lot of these types of applications and create an environment where they are more likely to multiply faster in order to have a greater impact.  As of right now, this new technology is not at the same level, but obviously the future implacations of this could be much much greater.

    Science is a funny thing.  Scary and exciting at the same time.

    Parent

    Ice Nine. nt. (none / 0) (#111)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:06:19 PM EST
    From my Alma Mater:
    Arizona's Smoking Ban Reduced Hospital Visits, UA Study Finds

    Since the 2007 state law took effect, admissions for ailments related to secondhand smoke have declined by as much as 33 percent.



    Intersesting... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:20:00 PM EST
    who knew people went to the emergency room because of second-hand smoke?  How are they sure it ain't any number of other poisons that float around us?  

    I went to the ER so much as a kid my moms had to start giving a false name out of fear of child services...but never for second-hand smoke.

    Parent

    probably respiratory (none / 0) (#42)
    by CST on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:23:48 PM EST
    illnesses.  If they went down by that much at that time, you don't know if it's 100% from second hand smoke but it could be related.  Probably depends on what else was happening in the area.  One other factor may also be the poor economy, less construction going on.  Construction vehicles and construction related debris is notoriously bad for air quality as well.

    Parent
    Respiratory problems... (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:06:21 PM EST
    they seem to be on the rise overall, or just diagnosed more...especially with the kids.  Yet smoking is down all over.  Maybe something else is going on?

    Parent
    pollution (none / 0) (#81)
    by CST on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:15:50 PM EST
    in urban (especially lower-income, formerly industrial) areas is a huge problem for asthma rates and other respiratory problems.

    Clean air is a beautiful thing.

    Parent

    "Maybe something else is going on?" (none / 0) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:17:41 PM EST
    Wishful thinking, imo.

    Parent
    Care to share a guess... (none / 0) (#89)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:24:46 PM EST
    for increased respiratory problems while smoking is in decline?  

    The highest rates in NY ain't around the track, they're around the bus depot in the BX.

    Parent

    Honestly, (none / 0) (#106)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:51:29 PM EST
    I think you ought to read the actual research.

    Without reading it myself, I gauran-dam-tee you they controlled for the stuff that might effect their study.

    These guys and gals aren't pikers, they have to have defensible research or they get defunded and lose their jobs and their reputations and the university's reputation which means the school will lose it's funding, etc. And defensible from other rock-star scientists, not just some internet yahoos like you and me.

    I guarantee you they controlled for what you mentioned and piles of other stuff we yahoos have no clue about...

    Parent

    Psychology profs (none / 0) (#156)
    by Cream City on Thu May 20, 2010 at 08:17:22 PM EST
    did this study, not M.D.'s.

    I think that may make a major difference in their understanding and ability in controlling for variables.

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#92)
    by CST on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:27:54 PM EST
    I think it's fair to say that smoking is not the only thing out there that is harmfull to your respiratory health.  Of course that doesn't mean smoking is not bad for you, clearly it is, and clearly second hand is as well.  But there is also "something else going on" - pollution.

    Any time you are breathing in debris - that's really not good for you, whether it comes from a cigarette or exhaust.

    Parent

    I think it's fair to say (none / 0) (#115)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:12:50 PM EST
    that the researchers thought of that, especially something as obvious as that, and controlled for it.

    Parent
    I don't want to subscribe to the journal (none / 0) (#118)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:20:54 PM EST
    to read the methodology of this particular study. However, the reporters who write about such studies may misinterpret what is presented. I'm not questioning the study itself, just curious about the methodology.

    There was a recent television report about a meta-analysis done on, oh,something. the talking heads spoke as if it was some great unvarnished truth-- without (in my opinion) understanding the weaknesses involved in aggregating studies.

    I'll keep my eyes open for a reprint or a free copy, or visit a nearby university's library, because UA is known for excellent research.

    One of the areas of interest to me would be age and obesity of the subjects, if known.

    Parent

    Hopefully, (none / 0) (#128)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:15:01 PM EST
    as this particular "reporter" is a UA employee, he got it right.

    Parent
    Way back when we still used typewriters (none / 0) (#138)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:06:47 PM EST
    I did my internship at my university's agricultural experiment station. It was a wonderful learning experience. I was offered a real job there, but owed the Army some years following my degree completion.

    I'd venture, SUO, that the reporters working for UA are more careful with fact-checking than many other reporters, for two or three reasons. First, the staff writers are reporting facts, and their jobs depend on it. Second, I'd bet that the article's authors saw the story before it was released and signed off on it. Finally, this report wasn't conjecture, nor was it based on one source and verified by another.

    The results, however, seem pretty darned high to attribute to second-hand smoke alone. I'll find this article next week, it has certainly piqued my interest.

    Parent

    Hard to Believe, But it is Real (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:24:54 PM EST
    Exposure to secondhand smoke can be tested by measuring the levels of cotinine (a nicotine by-product in the body) in the nonsmoker's blood, saliva, or urine (1). Nicotine, cotinine, carbon monoxide, and other evidence of secondhand smoke exposure have been found in the body fluids of nonsmokers exposed to secondhand smoke.

    link

    Parent

    Sorry man... (none / 0) (#48)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:32:04 PM EST
    I don't trust any link ending in .gov:) j/k

    But I don't doubt it's harmful, it's smoke, bbq and the car exhaust are harmful too.

    On a somehat related note...we've all heard about the uininsured clogging the ER and jamming up the system, expecially the dreaded document-less uninsured...survey says bullsh*t.  

    Parent

    Yeah Saw That (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by squeaky on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:51:40 PM EST
    But as far as second hand smoke goes... you may want to do a bit of googling... it is no joke.

    Parent
    From the link (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:52:36 PM EST
    Their results showed statistically significant reductions in hospital admissions of 13 percent for AMI, 33 percent for unstable angina, 14 percent for acute stroke and 22 percent for asthma in counties with no previous bans over what was seen in counties with previous bans.

    I wish it was true... but it is just too good to be true. Reduce heart attacks 13%? Strokes 14%?

    Color me very skeptical.... And I am a fan of non-smoking and don't smoke myself.

    Parent

    Skeptical as well... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:58:24 PM EST
    but in no position to question the science, only the motives of these particular scientists...it's a cynical age.

    And I breathed it secondhand all my life...till I discovered the joys of firsthand.  But I got no problem with a general indoor ban...I get it.  I just want the sin exemption for bars and casinos...places you go to do yourself harm...the whole point of going actually.

    Parent

    Chuckle. At first I thought you meant (none / 0) (#44)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:25:47 PM EST
    that people were not visiting loved ones in the hospital because of the smoking bans there. That may very well be true also.

    Parent
    haha (none / 0) (#45)
    by CST on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:28:19 PM EST
    that was my first reaction as well.  Or rather, I thought people who were sick weren't going to the hospital cuz they couldn't smoke there.  Which is even more rediculous.

    Parent
    Just not my first definition of the word (none / 0) (#50)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:37:09 PM EST
    'visit'!

    Parent
    I gotta be spewing fluids... (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:50:28 PM EST
    uncontrolably to drag my arse to the ER...but the smoking prohibition is only part of the reason...the main reason is the hospital will f*ckin' kill ya, all those diseases floating around:)

    Parent
    Oh me too!! (none / 0) (#75)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:11:30 PM EST
    I have (knock on wood) never been to a hospital except to visit the sick. And now I am terrified of those MRSA and other infections. Seems like going to the hospital is the best way to get sick.

    Parent
    Other studies have shown dramatic (none / 0) (#87)
    by observed on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:21:39 PM EST
    drops in heart attack rates.
    I really don't understand this,  because Winston Churchill smoked and drank yet lived to be 90.
    He probably could have run marathons too, if he'd wanted.
    Then there was my friend's great grandmother, who died at 107. She was a smoker, and never had a day of illness.
    The plural of anecdote is data, and now you see that the data shows smoking is healthy.

    Actually, 100 years ago, doctors advised coal miners in Wales to smoke cigarettes for their respiratory health.


    Parent

    Life expectancy has sky-rocketed... (none / 0) (#91)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:27:35 PM EST
    since Sir Raleigh brought tobacco to Europe, fwiw:)

    And what about the French...they smoke more than us and are generally a healthier people.

    Parent

    medical science (none / 0) (#93)
    by CST on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:29:38 PM EST
    has also made huge developments since that time.  Probably made more of an impact on life expectancy.

    The French also eat healthier and have much lower rates of obesity.

    Parent

    Agree to Disagree... (none / 0) (#96)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:32:39 PM EST
    medical development my arse, its the tobacco...the wonder drug:)

    Obesity...now there is the real health scourge of our generation.  Till the 2030's...then it will be cell-phone caused brain tumors.

    Parent

    And regarding old Churchill... (none / 0) (#98)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:37:00 PM EST
    don't forget about the opium...rumor has it he was a big hop head as well as tobacco and booze hound.

    Parent
    Tobacco is far worse than opium, (none / 0) (#101)
    by observed on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:41:05 PM EST
    in terms of health effects.
    However, opium is far more immoral, which is what counts.

    Parent
    Simplistically saying (none / 0) (#104)
    by jondee on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:44:13 PM EST
    opium is immoral" is immoral. Think of all the people who have been helped by opiates through history.

    Parent
    I was hoping that was sarcasm... (none / 0) (#107)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:55:27 PM EST
    from our friend observed...otherwise, good grief.  

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by jondee on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:17:12 PM EST
    I think you're right. I thought it was the other, prosecutorial O, at first..

    Parent
    Oh, for gawd's sake! (none / 0) (#161)
    by oculus on Thu May 20, 2010 at 08:48:12 PM EST
    My views on opiates ought to be (none / 0) (#145)
    by observed on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:52:08 PM EST
    known to you, by now.
    I favor a case by case, evidence-based drug policy. "Morality" is not a factor.


    Parent
    The eyes aren't (none / 0) (#151)
    by jondee on Thu May 20, 2010 at 07:34:25 PM EST
    what they used to be..for some reason I read oculus.

    Parent
    Haig, the British (none / 0) (#102)
    by jondee on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:41:58 PM EST
    commander, tried to smear Churchill with that during WWI.

    Parent
    Then Haig... (none / 0) (#108)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:56:11 PM EST
    only smeared himself...a man's vice is his business.

    Parent
    Haig was busy (none / 0) (#117)
    by jondee on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:19:03 PM EST
    killing off 10,000 of his own men in a day back then. Speaking of Vice.

    Parent
    Common sense, optimal living best bet 4 longevity (none / 0) (#135)
    by Ellie on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:37:56 PM EST
    From what I've read and know from experience, the difference in longevity relates to habits (good/bad) surrounding the tobacco consumption.

    Simplistically put, non-smokers can more easily suddenly go from 0-60 -- say, situations that make the heart race, ie, physical and emotional stress -- and they have pre-emptively reduced their likelihood of heart failure and stroke. OTOH, people who freak out during crises can be the physically healthiest around but at a higher risk.

    Meanwhile occasional/moderate smokers that allow their lungs frequent/longer breaks to fully oxygenate AND ALSO practice habits that promote repair and overall health (dietary, lifestyle) have also pre-emptively reduce their likelihood of heart failure and stroke, but from another angle.

    I'm not for cookie-cutter diagnoses, but anyone can look not too far down one's own family tree to see different dynamics at work.

    Parent

    As the law took effect (none / 0) (#125)
    by Cream City on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:47:34 PM EST
    just as, we now know, the economy was starting to slide . . . hmm, could people have been going to the hospital less often because of the costs?  I don't see data to show which people went less -- those who are poor and covered for free, anyway, or those in the struggling working class who increasingly were formerly working, losing jobs and losing health care coverage?

    So I'd like to see data on Arizona's economy in that year of the study after the ban went into effect.  All I know is that the rich got richer there in the property-flipping boom, but that doesn't tell us how it was for most residents.

    Of course, there is some connection, no doubt.

    That said, I also have to wonder about that report, which  overstates results in ways that no scientist would.  That great an effect was found for only one health condition -- but far, far less effect was found for all of the other conditions.

    Ah well, as bans spread, we will see better studies, or at least better reporting of studies, we can hope.

    Parent

    We can only hope. (none / 0) (#132)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:27:34 PM EST
    Learning Spanish ... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Robot Porter on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:17:35 PM EST
    Jeralyn, I too want to improve my abilities in Spanish.  I don't know about iPad apps, but I've been eying the Rosetta Stone software.  I hear great things about it.  Though it's a tad expensive.

    Anyone have any experience with it?

    Curious too... (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:54:03 PM EST
    I breezed through every subject in school but Spanish...what a struggle, I've got a bilingual block or something.  I was thinking of giving Rosetta a shot.

    Parent
    Spouse has been learning Italian (none / 0) (#82)
    by Cream City on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:15:51 PM EST
    with Rosetta Stone software.  Hysterically funny for me to hear him fume at the computer, when it will not let him proceed, based on his pronunciations.

    Hoosiers don't do Italian well, trust me.

    Not that I know Italian, but I took Latin, so I catch on to some of it -- plus it gives me a handle on the pronunciation.  So sometimes, hearing him and the computer repeat a word over and over, and then hearing him say some other and not-so-nice words at the computer that would not let him proceed . . . I just come in the room and say the word or phrase to the computer.

    Computer is happy when I do so.  Spouse, not so much.  But at the rate he was going, he was going to get nowhere!

    Parent

    Thanks... (none / 0) (#94)
    by kdog on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:29:53 PM EST
    that's my weakest suit...pronunciation, serious case of lengua de gringo.  I think I'll pass.

    I'll hang more with the immigrants on the block and tell them not to baby me by speaking english...let me struggle, it's the only way...immersion.

    Parent

    Just marry a Spanish speaker (5.00 / 5) (#114)
    by jeffinalabama on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:10:22 PM EST
    who speaks no English. Your Spanish will improve.

    Marital results may vary.

    Speaking for myself only...

    Parent

    But it's the best way (none / 0) (#123)
    by Cream City on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:38:20 PM EST
    to get even close to the pronunciation vs. books -- well, second best to taking a class with a good teacher to get you into pronunciations.  But the computer programs are cheaper than most classes.

    Some libraries have them, too, so you could give it a try to see whether you want to buy?

    Parent

    Reading out loud (none / 0) (#148)
    by MKS on Thu May 20, 2010 at 07:10:04 PM EST
    helps for some reason....practice, I guess.....

    Just take a newspaper article or something and read it out loud....

    Still got to know the right way to pronounce the words....but after knowing the right way, it still takes practice to get there.

    Watching Spanish television.  If you guys don't have that in NY, you could always watch DVDs.....We here in California are culturally advanced so we have all kinds of Spanish television shows....

    The telenovelas are funny and entertaining in a campy sort of way....Spanish news is good--the pronunciation is very good....but it can be hard to keep up.

    Watching t.v. is how many learn English here.  I would try it out....

    Parent

    Meh (none / 0) (#134)
    by miwome on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:32:12 PM EST
    I'm not a Rosetta fan--I was using it to learn some German a few years ago and I didn't feel like I learned much. Some of that has to do with my own preferences with language learning, though; I really need a strong grammar component (charts of verb conjugations and such) to feel like I'm getting anywhere, and early Rosetta stages are more about showing you pictures and words in association. That just makes me feel like I'm trapped in a world of idiots.

    When I want to pick up on a language fast, I get myself a grammatical primer and a dictionary, and thus armed I start trying to read a simple book and watch a movie (in stages, not all at once). As soon as I know what's going on in a given section/page, I'm allowed to move on. I got pretty far pretty fast in French that way, though now I don't remember a thing since it's of no use to me anymore. Having a knowledgeable friend on hand to ask about particularly confusing things is very helpful, too.

    Parent

    I know about the holograms (none / 0) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:41:19 PM EST
    ATMs a Mystery to Senator

    Lawmakers walk past that ATM all the time on their way to votes on the Senate floor, but don't expect to see Sen. Ben Nelson stopping to grab some quick cash.
    The Nebraska Democrat pleaded ignorance when asked this week whether Congress should cap ATM fees. Nelson said that while he's no fan of unnecessary fees, he's unfamiliar with the charges.
    "I've never used an ATM, so I don't know what the fees are," Nelson said, adding that he gets his cash from bank tellers, just not automatic ones. "It's true, I don't know how to use one."
    "But I could learn how to do it just like I've . . . I swipe to get my own gas, buy groceries. I know about the holograms."


    They're a series of tubes! (5.00 / 0) (#55)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:44:52 PM EST
    ok, they are learning (none / 0) (#63)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:54:11 PM EST
    Well, last night, the members of AHA did what they set out to do. They drew upwards of 100 stick figure Muhammads.

    But.

    The MSA group followed them as they did it and added the word boxing gloves and "Ali" to each image.

    touche' (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by ruffian on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:04:09 PM EST
    The boxing gloves thing is pretty funny.

    Parent
    exactly (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:12:29 PM EST
    fight humor with humor.

    you have done well my Muslim padawans

    Parent

    a (none / 0) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 02:55:13 PM EST
    link

    since I screwed it up

    The MSA group followed them as they did it and added the boxing gloves and and the word "Ali" to each image.

    Parent

    oops (none / 0) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 03:58:36 PM EST
    sorry I missed a swear word.


    Which reminds me (none / 0) (#119)
    by waldenpond on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:27:20 PM EST
    I need to spend some time deleting some profanity.  :)

    Parent
    delete that if you want (none / 0) (#120)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:28:58 PM EST
    I can repost it

    Parent
    Best way to make the most (none / 0) (#122)
    by Cream City on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:34:43 PM EST
    of immersion for the amount of time that most people can get away, we find, is to try to pick up what we can ahead of time.

    I haven't had the time this year, with so much time required to learn emerging computer programs, so I'm glad that my spouse has spent the time prepping with his language program to make the most of the time we have!  And, no doubt, to be my translator who will claim that outrageous prices are being asked, so as to keep down my spending. :-)

    Do what I do (none / 0) (#136)
    by scribe on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:53:46 PM EST
    listen to radio in the language you want to learn.

    I've been doing it with German for the last 7 or 8 years (that long?) and I've gotten better than I was (though not at speaking).

    Parent

    Rosetta stone seems to be (none / 0) (#143)
    by Jen M on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:47:36 PM EST
    Very good.

    I started the Swedish but then stopped.

    But it really is intuitive and how kids learn.

    Parent

    just to show I am equal opportunity (none / 0) (#126)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:10:41 PM EST
    Dennis Blair, Diretor of National (none / 0) (#127)
    by caseyOR on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:11:56 PM EST
    Intelligence, is resigning. That's what WaPo is telling me in a super special email alert.

    No info on why. Is Blair taking the fall because the feds did not catch the Times Square bomber and the underpants bomber before they attempted to ignite their bombs?

    Read what WaPo has.

    Ahhh immersion: Wonderful world, beautiful people (none / 0) (#142)
    by Ellie on Thu May 20, 2010 at 06:11:10 PM EST
    That was always my experience in absorbing a language and culture ... before fanatics the world over took control of the travelways.

    I used to just throw a couple of things in a bag and GO! as a scout and advance person for my former salt mine but no more.

    Whoever could imagine that things could change so abruptly and be so hard to reverse?