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Wednesday Night Open Thread

BTD is traveling and I'm headed out to dinner.

Two will be leaving American Idol tonight. I think one will be Andrew Garcia. The other? Maybe Siobhan Magnus or Katie Stevens.

Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Will Obama call on Israel to declare its nuclear (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by bridget on Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 08:28:29 PM EST
    program and sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty?

    Since he dodges AGAIN the question regarding Israel's nuclear program, this time in front of the whole world during the Nuclear Security Summit, I doubt that v. very much.

    Scott Wilson from WaPo:

    "You have spoken often about bringing US policy in line with its treaty obligations internationally, to eliminate the perceptions of hypocrisy that some of the world sees toward the US and its allies. In that spirit and in that venue, will you call on Israel to declare its nuclear program and sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and if not, why wouldn't other countries see that as an incentive not to sign on to a treaty that you say is important to strengthen?" Wilson asked Obama."

    read on

    and find out what Change looks like.


    Obama dodges question link: (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by bridget on Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 08:31:05 PM EST
    Nice Right Wing Link (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:28:43 PM EST
    Not surprised...

    Haaretz reports a different response to Obama's remarks:

    [Eric] Cantor [R-VA] responded in a statement by saying, "The administration's troubling policy of manufacturing fights with Israel to ingratiate itself with some in the Arab world is no way to advance the cause of Mideast peace."

    He added, "What kind of message is sent to the world when our country appears to turn its back on key strategic allies who share our values?"

    Cantor went on to say that the list of grievances "supposedly stoking the hatred of Islamic terrorists is endless and evolving."

    "The suggestion that terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan will lay down their weapons if we distance ourselves from Israel is blindingly naïve," he said.

    Haartz also fleshes out Obama's remarks quite differently than the right wing Jerusalem Post, are we surprised? no.. :

    Obama on Tuesday urged all countries, including Israel, to sign the international Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, or NPT.

    "Whether we're talking about Israel or any other country, we think that becoming part of the NPT is important," Obama said. "And that, by the way, is not a new position. That's been a consistent position of the United States government, even prior to my administration."

    Obama also said that unresolved conflicts, such as the Arab-Israeli conflict, affect the United States.

    "It is a vital national security interest of the United States to reduce these conflicts because whether we like it or not, we remain a dominant military superpower," Obama said. "And when conflicts break out, one way or another, we get pulled into them. And that ends up costing us significantly in terms of both blood and treasure.‬"



    Parent
    Democracy Now, interview on Obama Nuke Summit (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:34:25 AM EST
    Nuke Summit Necessary or Nuclear Alarmism? What About Israel's Arsenal?

    John Mueller, on myth of available loose nukes:

    Locking up fissile material, the uranium and plutonium, is certainly a worthy objective. What I object to is sort of this sense that there's this huge urgency. Terrorists are extraordinarily unlikely to be able to get a nuclear weapon [snip]. No one has really been able to find anything that's a "loose" nuke...If you did actually buy or steal a nuclear weapon, what you'd find is that it's got a lot of locks on it, and there's very few people who know how to unlock it...if tampered with the weapon will self-destruct in a conventional explosion.
    On al-Qaeda's lack of investment or expertise in WMD technology:
    When al-Qaeda left Afghanistan after the invasion in 2001...their entire budget for weapons of mass destruction, mainly primitive work on chemical weapons, was about $2,000...There's no indication they have anything resembling a competent technology team that could put anything together, maybe not even chemical weapons, much less nuclear ones.
    On US attitudes/intentions toward Iran:
    I'm also concerned about the general hype over nuclear weapons, and I'm afraid that's going to be focused increasingly on Iran...a worst case fantasy...we would launch military strikes which would kill tens or even hundreds of thousands of people, the same policy, of course, which was applied to Iraq in the '90s...

    Good to have critics questioning whether this is deja vu all over again.

    Parent

    Nice Selective Editing Job (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 08:55:00 AM EST
    We welcome you to Democracy Now! Professor, lay out your criticism of what took place, this largest gathering of world leaders held by the United States since FDR.
    JOHN MUELLER: Well, much of it, I think, is fine. Locking up fissile material, the uranium and plutonium, is certainly a worthy objective. But what I object to is sort of this sense that there's this huge urgency. Terrorists are extraordinarily unlikely to be able to get a nuclear weapon...

    And you forgot this:

    SHARIF ABDEL KOUDDOUS: And John Mueller, you also say that terrorists exhibit only a limited desire to obtain these nuclear weapons, which goes contrary to what most intelligence reports are telling us. Why do you say that?
    JOHN MUELLER: Well, I looked at those intelligence reports, and, of course, Obama said the same thing. The indication of interest is extraordinarily small.

    AMY GOODMAN: John Mueller, do you think that the gathering in Washington, this largest gathering the US has ever hosted of world leaders since FDR, was completely unproductive? You say that countries, not to mention groups, will not use nuclear weapons. The US used nuclear weapons, right? They bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    JOHN MUELLER: Yeah, I don't think it's completely unproductive, but what it does is sort of speed up a process that's been going on for at least twenty years--in fact, many, many years, in fact, sixty years. That is, to make sure that nuclear weapons are secure and the materials that you need to make a nuclear weapon are also secure. It's not a very complicated process. It will take a while. It'll take a remarkably small amount of money, overall. And I think that's basically good. ...

    Can I add one thing, by the way, about the Obama statement this morning that's really quite remarkable? He said basically that we can't do anything about the situation between Israel and Palestine until they get their act together. And that's one of the most realistic things I ever heard by a president say.

    Fearmongering? Nice try...

    Parent

    The New START Treaty: Food For Thought (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by bridget on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 01:24:02 PM EST
    Don't put away your duct tape yet.

    Nuclear weapons  will play an important role under Obama. But What else is new.

    NUCLEAR INSANITIES

    New START Treaty is a Slow Start Toward Disarmament

    http://www.counterpunch.org/mercile04142010.html

    Parent

    Top Chef Masters. (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 09:37:47 PM EST


    Commercials in the middle of judge's table? (none / 0) (#8)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 09:53:22 PM EST
    Not cool.

    Parent
    The color of Obama's 'threat level' is white hot. (3.50 / 2) (#14)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:38:15 AM EST
    Via USA Today, Obama at the Nuclear Summit said Nuclear blast victims would have to wait. NOTE: he's talking about us. (Bold and italics added below.)
    The White House has warned state and local governments not to expect a "significant federal response" at the scene of a terrorist nuclear attack for 24 to 72 hours after the blast, according to a planning guide.

    President Obama told delegates from 47 nations at the Nuclear Security Summit on Tuesday that it would be a "catastrophe for the world" if al-Qaeda or another terrorist group got a nuclear device, because so many lives would be lost and it would be so hard to mitigate damage from the blast.

    A 10-kiloton nuclear explosion [slightly smaller than the roughly 15-kiloton Hiroshima bomb] would level buildings within half a mile of ground zero, generate 900-mph winds, bathe the landscape with radiation and produce a plume of fallout that would drift for hundreds of miles, the guide says. It was posted on the Internet and sent to local officials.

    [snip]Rick Nelson of the Center for Strategic and International Studies: "One challenge...will be to persuade survivors to stay indoors, shielded from dangerous radiation until they're given the all-clear or told to evacuate. In all likelihood, families will be separated...It's going to be scary to sit tight, though it's the right thing to do."

    This is fear-mongering of titanic proportions. I didn't like these cold war histrionics from Reagan and I like it even less from his latter day protege.

    Nice Try Spreading Propaganda (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 08:29:25 AM EST
    You could get a full time job writing for the tea partiers..

    To wrench what Obama said out of context and implicitly compare him to BushCo bedwetting techniques aka fascist style fearmongering is patently dishonest

    This statement, as you must know, was delivered to a 47 nation summit whose sole purpose was to address the threat of a terrorist nuclear attack and nuclear non-proliferation.

    Do you think it would have been a better use of Obama's time for him to discuss chess strategies, or flower arrangement?

    And of course your selective BushCo comparison, falls flat on its face once you add the part which you selectively left out:

    President Obama has said the world is more secure as he closed a two-day conference on nuclear security.

    Sorta contradicts your fearmongering thesis, no?


    Parent

    Ewwwwww (none / 0) (#20)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 12:42:42 PM EST
    News this morning said a couple of tea party demonstrations are going to happen in my area this afternoon....GMA had a brief appearance by Kelly Ann Fitzpatrick (I forget her new name) who said she thought the t.p.ers were great. No doubt in my mind it's an organization to avoid if she is in favor. She's one of the few people who I think is worse than Ann Coulter.

    Parent
    Fear-mongering of titanic proportions because (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by bridget on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:19:55 PM EST
    Obama, the Peace candidate, is ready for regime change in Iran. The "mushroom cloud" talk so helpful for the Bush admin eager to invade Iraq will do the same for the Obama admin: Prepare the country for war in Iran. Bush used the "terrorists" and their alleged relationship to Saddam as reasons for war. Obama is doing the same by hyping the possibility of terrorist nuclear attacks.

    It is deja vu all over again.

    "The White House has warned state and local governments not to expect a "significant federal response" at the scene of a terrorist nuclear attack for 24 to 72 hours after the blast, according to a planning guide."

    As If.
    Katrina should have taught everyone in the US that in case of a major disaster nobody should
    expect help from anyone. Not the local government, not state and national government.
    Anyone who followed the recent earthquake in Haiti knows that the $$$ could have helped thousands but didn't and the press never followed the money.

    Of Course You are on your own.
    And world populations who have suffered deaths and destructions of major proportions (US citizen don't even know about most of it or can't even imagine all the misery), don't need someone like US President B. Obama - whose own country is the only one to drop the bomb on the Japanese population, twice, - to lecture them about deadly nuclear attacks.

    Fear-mongering of titanic proportions is right.  

    Parent

    The sabre rattling (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 05:06:17 PM EST
    toward Iran is 90% posturing and grandstanding - that will ultimately, never be acted upon - for the f*ckwads who have been trying to set the agenda rightward and portray the Democrats as "weak" for decades..

    "Regime change" in an armed-to-teeth country, twice the size of Iraq, with terrain that makes Iraq look like the back nine at Pebble Beach; with a significantly sizable sector imbued with circle-the-wagons militancy AND the U.S already bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq and with a still unstable economic situation at home? We wont even talk about the effect on oil prices and the high degree of ambivalence expressed by Russia and China about the possibility of further destabilization in that part of the world..

    Not gonna happen, no matter how much the neocon types and their terriers in the media foam at the mouth about it.

     

    Parent

    Utter BS (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:52:03 PM EST
    Obama was never the peace candidate for one. You are dissembling and obviously prone to bedwetting, just like some of the wingnuts who used to love lapping up BushCo nonsense.

    And as far as dejavu, only teabaggers and cultists are having the  kind of game leg feeling in their memory circuits you are experiencing, because there is zero fearmongering coming out of the WH aimed toward the voting public. This was all coming from an international summit on a specific issue, which has a goal quite different than the neocon fearmongers you evoke.

    But then again, I bet you believe that Obama is secretly hooking up with Daniel Pipes to figure out how to boost his ratings, by bombing Iran... lol

    That must have been where he was the other day when Obama secretly went missing... now we know he was sneaking out to do something nefarious to do with ...   Daniel Pipes... lol

    But I guess it is part of your faction's agenda to twist any event so that Obama is painted as the same or worse than Bush. Maybe the name for your faction could be neo nestea baggers..

    kind has a nice ring to it, no?

    Parent

    For anybody who's ever listen to the radio (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 07:15:31 PM EST
    in Philly, this will tickle:

    GARY BARBERA might be going to jail.

    Speaking of radio (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 05:18:01 PM EST
    Does anyone here remember Long John Nebel, who used do that unintentionally hilarious, surreal, trainwreck of a late night call in show for WMCA in NY back in the early seventies?

    Parent
    The Dialidol predictions (none / 0) (#2)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 07:48:35 PM EST
    Jeez, I clicked on the link thinking that (none / 0) (#13)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:09:38 AM EST
    Dialidol was a new opium-derivative prescription drug, a new dilaudid or something.

    Parent
    Bill Lerach, a San Diego attorney, was (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 08:03:06 PM EST
    recently released from federal custody after serving prison time.  Very successful at suing corporations on behalf of allegedly defrauded shareholders.  Now he will teach at UCI Law School--how we failed to reign in financiers, etc., how to do better in the future.  San Diego UT

    I'm personally sick of Tim Urban, can't believe (none / 0) (#6)
    by Angel on Wed Apr 14, 2010 at 09:29:45 PM EST
    he's still on the show.  But WFTW is doing their part to keep him afloat.  

    Katie Stevens did a really good (none / 0) (#9)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 01:30:50 AM EST
    version of Let it Be after she was let go. I've been surprised every week her fan base is so low.

    Tea Party Demographics (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 01:40:46 AM EST
    if Obama spent more time talking to (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:51:39 AM EST
    the tea party rank and file, and less time chatting up GOP pols, he might be able to bring some of those folks to their senses.

    Clearly, they really, really don't want to lose their Social Security and Medicare, so he could start by telling them he'll guard those things with his life, as Democrats have usually endeavored to do.

    Parent

    First, he'd have to convince a lot (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 07:04:31 AM EST
    of Democrats - current and currently-disenchanted, former and thinking-about-going-Independent - that he is guarding Social Security and Medicare, because all signs are pointing to "the tough decisions to be made" that are going to help "bring the deficit under control" and "fix the problems" with these entitlements.

    Anyone with a handy-dandy code book knows to be very afraid of talk like this.  He's got the committee set up, co-chaired by one of the all-time Social Security haters - Alan Simpson - so all the pieces are falling into place.  Health "reform" was the template - and one of the reasons I worried that template would be successful is that I know they will be using it on something even bigger: Social Security and Medicare.  

    No, I think there is every reason to be afraid, and I see no reason why anyone should be reassured by anything Obama says about what is or is not going to be done about entitlements.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 11:26:05 AM EST
    Finally ordered my 2L4O shirt yesterday ($1 goes to Corrente). Had to do something to counter the blind devotional propaganda of my apolitical OFB neighbors, who think of themselves as leftists and progressives but brought their Obama campaign signs out of storage after the health care (sic) act passed.

    Parent
    And our other leaders (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:22:43 PM EST
    of implacable "core principals and beliefs" are where?

    Waiting on the Fisher King until he gets well again?

    Parent

    Either your needle is stuck (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:39:28 PM EST
    or your record is broken - either way, there are times when you can't throw the "core principles and beliefs" phrase at a comment and expect to be (1) taken seriously, (2) perceived as making any sense, or (3) both.

    But, nice try.

    Parent

    Right (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:52:30 PM EST
    YOU can use it, though..because in your case it's an expression wielded with heartfelt sincerity, or something equally righteous.

    I think I asked a reasonable question.

    Parent

    I think the term you're looking for (none / 0) (#35)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:03:01 PM EST
    is non sequitur.

    a statement (as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said

    Try again.

    Parent

    Again (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:11:11 PM EST
    what part of the "open thread" concept is giving you the most trouble?

    Parent
    Translation, please? (none / 0) (#27)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:30:17 PM EST
    That needs translation? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:44:50 PM EST
    did Emma Goldman, Gandhi, Malcom, Eugene Debs etc put their integral role in a two-party status quo before their commitment to changing things?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#31)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:49:08 PM EST
    That does need translation.

    And so does the comment to which I am replying.

    But I suspect that you do not actually wish to be understood. I suspect that your comments about the 2L4O T-shirt are nothing but a howl of pain and rage at the affront to your love object.

    Parent

    "Love object"? (2.33 / 3) (#34)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:00:06 PM EST
    with all due respect, f*ck you.

    The point is, that we dont presently have anyone out there worthy of any excess amount of "love", respect or hopes for the future. Not that I can see.

     

    Parent

    And who said we do? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:14:45 PM EST
    we dont presently have anyone out there worthy of any excess amount of "love", respect or hopes for the future

    But I don't think that this fact precludes the possibility, the utility, or the necessity of calling attention to another fact--that a Democratic president who ran on a Democratic platform (itself not exactly a raging leftist screed), and who sought the votes of loyal Democrats, is now behaving like a Republican.

    It's a simple point, and a demonstrable reality. So just what is it about this point that you don't grasp? Do you really think it calls for evocations of Mahatma Gandhi and Emma Goldman? Or are you just a self-appointed T-shirt censor in this particular instance?

    Parent

    I think you're (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:41:53 PM EST
    a little caught up in a binary, adore the ground the President walks on or loath him view of reality.

    There's no law in this country (yet) that dictates one-leader-at-a-time, is all Im trying to get at..

    If Bush didnt teach us that there's a chance we could be stuck with a clueless stooge as President and that we'd better have a plan B, C and D to counter that possibility, what's it going to take?

     

    Parent

    For the record (none / 0) (#55)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:17:55 PM EST
    I think you're a little caught up in a binary, adore the ground the President walks on or loath him view of reality.

    1. You're wrong.

    2. I don't care what you think about me.


    Parent
    Not even a little..? (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:26:15 PM EST
    Im really not half-bad once you get to know me..:)

    All Im saying is that people need to start stepping up in this country, before the teabagger Dawn of the Dead steals all the populist thunder that is as equally our right as it is theirs.  

    Parent

    I don't disagree with that (none / 0) (#63)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:43:30 PM EST
    people need to start stepping up in this country, before the teabagger Dawn of the Dead steals all the populist thunder that is as equally our right as it is theirs

    What I'm saying, somewhat elliptically, is that as Obama, the head of the Democratic Party, continues to move the Overton Window right--alienating and, more important, isolating liberal Democrats as he escapes criticism from the vociferous faux and/or deluded and co-opted leftists who championed his election--the likelihood grows that our next president will be a right-wing populist.

    That concerns me.

    Obama needs strong pressure from the left. The faux/deluded/co-opted leftists aren't providing it, so that leaves the liberals.

    And I think you and I would agree that you don't have to be all that liberal to be 2L4O. But pressuring Obama to be even somewhat liberal is still helpful.

    Parent

    Are You Describing (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:19:09 PM EST
    Hillary... ? She is not president, just sayin...

     

    Democratic president who ran on a Democratic platform (itself not exactly a raging leftist screed), and who sought the votes of loyal Democrats, is now behaving like a Republican.

    Must have missed the election..

    Parent

    No (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:26:26 PM EST
    Are You Describing Hillary... ?

    No, it's you who brought her up.

    I was talking about the T-shirt I ordered yesterday to counter this mentality, which has has cropped up anew in my neighborhood.

    Talk about "cultists"!

    Parent

    Debs wasnt President (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:30:15 PM EST
    MLK wasnt President..

    Do want a President or an absolute monarch?

    Parent

    you.. (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:31:03 PM EST
    Silly Me? (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:36:06 PM EST
    I get so confused as to who is the Stealth Republican with a D next to their name, considering that the exact same charges came out of both cult camps...

    For the sane commenters view, most of who fled TL after the boat people landed, we all saw Hillary and Obama as to the right of where we were, and basically the same model but with different accessories.

    Parent

    I mostly agree (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:11:55 PM EST
    we all saw Hillary and Obama as to the right of where we were, and basically the same model but with different accessories

    though there were enough substantive differences for me to prefer Senator Clinton, as you say you also did early on.

    As you've also pointed out, however, Hillary is not the president. Obama is. That's why my T-shirt says 2L4O, not 2L4H.

    It's not as if Obama's fidelity to the Democratic Party's stated platform for 2008 would entail a particularly liberal raft of legislation. But it would be better than what Obama has done so far.

    As for "cult camps," the scarier of the two has its idol in the White House and is steadfastly refusing to confront the fact that he is pushing for and enacting right-wing policies. Arguably, a Hillary cult would be doing the same thing, had she won and governed like a Republican. But the point is moot. Obama, not Hillary, is the president.

    Anyway, this is silly. It's a damn T-shirt, for god's sake.

    Parent

    No Way To Know (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:30:59 PM EST
    But I really believe that both Hillary and Obama are representative of where the Democratic party is today. That being the case, I do not believe that anything would be different today were Hillary POTUS.

    The most remarkable thing, was the transformation that happened to Hillary because she had to distinguish herself from Obama. She took on the fighter persona. None of her Senate history indicated that she was anything but a compromiser, the one who reached bipartisan deals. She was a regular member of the Family weekly prayer meetings, one of the three dems in a sea of conservative Republicans.

    Given that I still preferred her over Obama, but really only because I could relate to her style more than Obamas. I never believed in her fighting persona. I met her once and was blown away by her charisma, no doubt in my mind that both Obama and Hillary are super talents regarding leadership. And let's skip the rhetoric that Obama is not a super star with tremendous political skill, just because he is not using it in the way progressives/liberals want him to.

    But to imagine that either of them would be doing anything different from where the Dems are now, was and is absurd, imo.

    Parent

    Here (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:48:28 PM EST
    is where you make my point:

    The most remarkable thing, was the transformation that happened to Hillary because she had to distinguish herself from Obama.

    Hillary responded to pressure from the primary electorate (and the biased media). Obama needs pressure from the left to distinguish himself from the Republicans.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 05:39:27 PM EST
    During the primary both Obama and Hillary were appealing to Democrats. Once the Democratic nomination was clinched the game changed. Obama moved to the right so that he could bring in more voters. Hillary would have done the same, imo. Potus is even a bigger game changer.

    How Hillary behaved as a Senator is much more predictive than how she behaved when she was fighting for a portion of the Democratic voters, imo.

    In fact when Hillary got rid of Penn, and more comfortable, dropping the fighting Hillary persona, she seemed to have a chance of gaining the nomination. I think, she may have won, save for Penn.

    He came up with the 3am ad, pushed Hillary to portray Obama as a foreigner, etc. Once he was gone she became much less negative, and more likable, and more electable.

    Parent

    Squeaky, did you ever claim, here at TL, (none / 0) (#65)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:57:27 PM EST
    that you voted for Hillary? Since you say you preferred her over Obama at some point. When did that change and why?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 05:48:05 PM EST
    I voted for Hillary in the primaries, but when Obama got the nomination, I voted for him as POTUS. Never saw any real difference between them, as both were to the right of where I stand. My transition was easy, probably because I never fell in love with either of them.

    I also voted for Hillary the first time round as NY Senator. Second time around I voted for the anti war progressive candidate, Jonathan Tasini because I did not like her warmongering.


    Parent

    This is interesting, if you don't mind saying, (none / 0) (#69)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 07:34:38 PM EST
    who in Congress is closet to where you stand politically? At the risk of being yelled at by somebody or other, I'll go with Bernie Sanders for myself.

    Parent
    Yeah (none / 0) (#70)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 07:59:01 PM EST
    Sanders, Feingold, Greyson, Weiner..  Schumer makes me sick sometimes, but he not terrible..

    Parent
    Good to know, thanks - gives context. (none / 0) (#71)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 08:14:17 PM EST
    I've always thought Feingold was 'Presidential material'.

    Parent
    yeah me too (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 08:33:00 PM EST
    :-) who knew. (none / 0) (#73)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 08:50:41 PM EST
    Who? (none / 0) (#74)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 09:17:28 PM EST
    Most who have been paying attention...  and then there the archives of at least 15.000 comments since the new TL system kicked in...

    lol

    Parent

    You've made 15,000 comments at TL? (none / 0) (#78)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 02:46:09 PM EST
    Over what span of time? I've always had two full time jobs, in addition to doing pro bono research, so I haven't been poring over TL's archives...lol.

    Parent
    Been Here Since 2003 or 4 (none / 0) (#79)
    by squeaky on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 02:57:59 PM EST
    Had been lurking and started commenting when the Valerie Plame scandal started up..  

    Parent
    Guess you did .... (none / 0) (#77)
    by Yman on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 07:32:50 AM EST
    Democratic president who ran on a Democratic platform (itself not exactly a raging leftist screed), and who sought the votes of loyal Democrats, is now behaving like a Republican.

    ... miss the election.

    Did you ever notice how the only way a few can try to deflect legitimate criticism of Obama?  "But, but, BUT .... Hillary would have been just as bad!"

    Kinda funny how they think they can not only read the minds of other commenters, but they can tell what would have happened in an alternate reality.

    Parent

    Well Jondee (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:16:28 PM EST
    You have to understand that many of these neo nestea baggers are battling other blog cults. It has gotten so reflexive for them that anyone who does not blare from the neo nestea bagger bullhorn must be a obot.

    Pavlov 101.

    Don't take it personally, they can't help themselves.

    Parent

    I wear mine with pride. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 12:41:47 PM EST
    It's raised an eyebrow or two, especially because some people cannot imagine there could be anyone more liberal than Obama, which just makes me laugh out loud.  I'm sure they are looking to see whether I have horns growing out of my head or Birkenstocks on my feet - and I have neither!  And I don't look like a DFH...but, but...how could that be if I am too liberal for Obama?  LOL

    Am glad I do not have to see Obama signage, as I live in the country and political signs just aren't of much use since few people would ever see them.

    Parent

    Anyone who thinks (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:29:43 PM EST
    or thought there was no one more liberal than Obama or the other schmoe, should've been disqualified from voting due to mental incapacity, and, or rampant historical ignorance.

    That is, if there are actually people of voting age who believe that.

    Parent

    Obama ran as a Democrat (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:45:26 PM EST
    Democratic voters have a right to expect a Democratic president's actions to conform with the Democratic Party platform of 2008 rather than the Republican Party platform of 1996 (or the Republican Party platform of 2008, for that matter).

    If you disagree, fine. It's still a free country, sort of. This means that some people's T-shirts will offend your delicate sensibilities from time to time.

    But perhaps you would be wise to refrain from wishing other citizens' voting rights into the cornfield when your own mentality tends to put you in bed with these guys.

    Parent

    Open thread (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:09:36 PM EST
    means, among other things, that puma-snit-rules dont
    necessarily extend to dictating discussion topics.

    Parent
    You said the "P" word (none / 0) (#41)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:19:16 PM EST
    Not me, and not anyone else. Just you.

    I was talking about a T-shirt that you don't like, and apparently you're offended.

    Grow up and get over it.

    Parent

    On the contrary (3.00 / 2) (#43)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:27:41 PM EST
    I think it's accurate, but dosnt go far enough. That is, if Im allowed to broach that point on Anne and yours thread.

    If you dont like "the p-word" maybe you should wait for more info before you start with "your love object" stupidity.

    Parent

    Spamlet, they're screwing with (none / 0) (#49)
    by Anne on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:47:14 PM EST
    you now - they're doing it in other threads, playing their little games.

    I guess school is out for the day and they're bored.

    Parent

    Screwing with you (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 03:58:44 PM EST
    in other words, not a crumb of sincerity or a valid intellectual point to be found or addressed..

    Just a lot of petty, one-up-manship by "them"

    Is that all it is, Anne?

    Parent

    Well, ...... yeah (none / 0) (#52)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:13:57 PM EST
    But that's pretty obvious.

    Parent
    And you know (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:31:51 PM EST
    that how, oh omniscient one?

    Parent
    By reading them (none / 0) (#61)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:35:35 PM EST
    ... but that's even more obvious.

    Parent
    What, nothing about (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:41:35 PM EST
    "true progs" defiling the sanctuary of Clinton? You disappoint me.

    Parent
    Judging by your fantastical ... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Yman on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 05:03:33 PM EST
    ... ramblings ("Clinton sanctuary", etc.), I expect you're more than used to a little disappointment.

    Parent
    Well, you can't overlook this (none / 0) (#53)
    by Spamlet on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:14:22 PM EST
    ever so valid intellectual comment from you to me:

    f*ck you

    That's the way to make a point.

    Parent

    ok (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by jondee on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:30:38 PM EST
    agree: a poor, vulgar, choice of words.

    The forceful expression of a (temporarily) enfeebled intellect. It happens.

    Parent

    lol (none / 0) (#60)
    by squeaky on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 04:32:50 PM EST
    Twas irony - or some such thing. (none / 0) (#23)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 02:10:13 PM EST
    I'm sure they don't want to cut defense spending (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by ruffian on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    either. At what point do we just start calling them Republicans?

    Parent
    please rewrite your comment (none / 0) (#75)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Apr 15, 2010 at 10:45:12 PM EST
    without the bas*tds word, use asterisks, we can't have those words here or the software censors will nab us. Thanks.

    FoxholeAtheist, thank you for your comments (none / 0) (#76)
    by bridget on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 01:46:22 AM EST
    I did notice that progressives with few rare exceptions take Obama's handling of Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, etc. as the gospel and that commenters who might share my concern about war and peace do prefer to remain silent on the subject. Quite frankly, That did come as a surprise to me. But then again, a lot has changed in the year I stayed away from the blogs.

    It was good to hear that you appreciate my comments. But I have already decided to leave the blog and take a break from the net again. Besides, if bloggers are allowed to stalk and trash others with impunity it is time to leave. But I have to say, it was quite the different experience after over a decade on the net.

    Thanks so much for offering to help with the formatting of comments. Under diff. circumstances, I would have gladly accepted any help. That was v. kind of you to do.

    Peace to us all ... and Take Care.