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Friday Afternoon Open Thread

Still very busy. Maybe next week will be better.

Open Thread.

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    Has the latest zero tolerance idiocy (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Jen M on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:34:31 PM EST
    been mentioned yet?

    Say no, tell the truth, get suspended. Good lesson!

    You just can't make this stuff up (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 09:31:56 PM EST
    Insanity abounds... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by kdog on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 07:02:46 AM EST
    As someone who spent a fair amount of time in the dean's office, I can tell ya the lesson I'd learn from this...next time swallow the damn pill and get rid of the evidence.  No pill no punishment.  Something the zero-tolerance brigade should think about.

    BTW..Anybody know a kid taking Adderal?  I've used that drug and it kinda disturbs me that its given to kids at all...its no joke people.  Even assuming it does help kids who can't pay attention or are too hyper, are we still sure it is a good idea? I mean I find it to be a fairly powerful drug...almost like an acid trip with lucidity in place of the bug-out.

     

    Parent

    On children, many stimulants do the (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 09:41:35 AM EST
    opposite as they do on adults. I've heard many, many things about the ADHD drugs ... and not one thing was good. The worst thing I heard was that schools got extra money from the gov't for every kid on these (believed to be gateway) drugs. It made sense with how many students the schools demanded the parents get tested. (Sadly, most parents let the school officials push them around.)

    The one thing I knew for sure about those drugs was my kids would never, ever take them.

    Parent

    ADHD is real, and stimulant meds work (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:06:39 AM EST
    on adults and children. We have 50 years of evidence for this.

    Parent
    ADHD is absolutely real (none / 0) (#94)
    by Zorba on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 12:23:02 PM EST
    And stimulants do work, but they are given way too often to kids who don't need them, rather than make the classroom changes that would help (and too many school districts pressure parents to get their kids on drugs, rather than restructuring the classroom environment).  Ritalin has been used for many, many years, to the great benefit of kids who need it.  I'm nervous about Adderall being given to children, at least younger children, though.  And it should be closely monitored for side effects when it is used.

    Parent
    My personal experience is (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 01:29:59 PM EST
    that cases are still missed. Namely mine, for years. They've gotten very good at diagnosing hyperactive children (mostly boys), but miss lots of people with inattentive symptoms.  

    Parent
    Attention Deficit Disorder without (4.33 / 3) (#113)
    by Zorba on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:50:24 PM EST
    the hyperactivity is routinely missed (especially so among girls, but also among boys).  However, in my experience (I still work as a private tutor and volunteer as a Parent Advocate attending meetings with the parents), ADD is often blamed when there is something else going on instead.  The diagnoses are not exact- they miss cases they should have picked up on and label as ADHD cases that are not (no, that girl is not just a "daydreamer," she has ADD; and that boy does not have ADHD, he has APD-Auditory Processing Disorder).  Even with reams of experts- physicians, psychologists, audiologists, speech therapists, etc, etc, it's sometimes hard to pin things down.  The schools around here, unfortunately (and based on the families I have worked with, admittedly a small group) seem to want to err on the side of "get that kid on drugs," as opposed to working with the teacher to make the necessary classroom accommodations and give the child the extra help that would make an enormous difference.  Having said all that, I have also seen Ritalin make an enormous difference in a lot of kids.  And adults diagnosed later in life.

    Parent
    Something about giving (none / 0) (#98)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 01:37:49 PM EST
    eight year olds something they're selling for fifteen bucks a hit in the men's room at Allman Brothers concerts, just kinda rubs me the wrong way.
    Call me a reactionary, fearmonger..

    Parent
    Try for misinformed (none / 0) (#100)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 01:58:52 PM EST
    Belief can be a powerful (none / 0) (#102)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:10:40 PM EST
    thing. Leading many people in many different directions.

    And one man's meat is another man's poison.

    Parent

    Your right though (none / 0) (#103)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:12:47 PM EST
    someone just told me they're getting twenty-a-hit for that stuff now.

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#104)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:18:59 PM EST
    The question is: how many kids do you want to not live up to full potential because they might sell their Ritalin to friends?

    Parent
    Im just not quite (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:25:22 PM EST
    sold on Ritalin being the ONLY way to insure that kids live up to their full potential. Not every single facet of our being is adequately addressed by simply finding the right pharmaceutical match, imo.

    Parent
    I'm going to have to walk away from this (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:27:55 PM EST
    I don't have much patience for people who question modern medicine.

    Parent
    Some things you dont question? (none / 0) (#110)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:31:16 PM EST
    That's pretty much the same response (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:47:48 PM EST
    you hear from people who want to have a "conversation" about climate change. NO. Some things aren't worth discussing anymore.

    Parent
    No Patience? (none / 0) (#111)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:33:14 PM EST
    I am certain that you can get a prescription that will help you be more tolerant.  No need to walk away in a huff anymore with the wonders of modern medicine so readily accessible.

    Parent
    As someone (none / 0) (#126)
    by jbindc on Sun Mar 14, 2010 at 11:16:08 AM EST
    Who lived with a sister with ADHD, let me tell you that Ritalin saved her life - not from her, but from keeping my parents from killing her (and my mom was a teacher, so that's how she recognized the symptoms!)

    ADD/ADHD is a chemical imbalance - it's hard to diagnose, but it's not just a case of "kids having too much energy." The brain synapses are not firing properly and "behavior modification" is not going to fix that - it may help with those not-serious cases in some respects, but it doesn't fix the basic problem. Ritalin / Adderol is a stimulant - since people with ADD/ADHD have malfunctions in their brains, it actually works as a depressant of sorts, which is why those people calm down.  My sister, while not hyper as an adult, still has trouble focusing and for her to tell a story takes forever.  But give her a pop or coffee, and she's a bit better because of the caffeine.

    To deny proper medication to someone who needs it is wrong.  Would you deny your diabetic child insulin?  Would you deny your myopic child glasses?

    Parent

    I know nothing (none / 0) (#64)
    by Jen M on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 07:32:57 AM EST
    about adderal.  My little brother got ritalin which I took by accident once.  I didn't notice any effects.

    But I think most kids in that school got the lesson:  Don't tell the adults anything.

    Parent

    Which... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 07:54:57 AM EST
    are the adults again?  Cuz only a child lacking comprehension of the concept of complexity could up with this zero-tolerance sh*t:)

    I didn't notice any effect from Ritalin either...Adderal, otoh...wow.  I was impressed...then somwhat appalled that it is given to minors.  Was just wondering if anybody could chime in with experience of its intended use on children.


    Parent

    Ritalin effects can be subtle (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by Manuel on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:52:38 AM EST
    but they are real.  We thought long and hard before having our kid take methylphenidate (Ritalin) in the long acting Concerta form.  We do not inform teachers if he has had the medication.  We get a daily report about his day.  On days when he doesn't get his medication (you have to get it renewed every month and it can take a couple of days to get the new prescription) we invariably get reports of a bad day.  On ocassion, we have not given him the medication as a check with the same negative reports.  Based on this evidence, we believe that methylphenidate is effective for him.

    Stimulants are all around us.  Many of us depend on that cup of coffee in the morning to get going.  Mate is starting to become available in more US cities.  In Bolivia the coca leaf is used in some traditional and new drinks and products.  It is only its close relationship to cocaine that is holding coca back as a strong competitor to Red Bull.  As always, the key is moderation and knowledge.

    Zero tolerance, one size fits all, policies are misguided.  The only semi good argument I have heard is that without zero tolerance many policies tend to be enforced disproportionally against minority students.  By giving up all discretion, impartiality is assured.  This is a valid cnceren but surely there are other solutions.

    Parent

    Thanks... (none / 0) (#121)
    by kdog on Sun Mar 14, 2010 at 08:32:17 AM EST
    for sharing Manuel.

    Parent
    We overmedicate our kids (none / 0) (#75)
    by Zorba on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 09:52:42 AM EST
    in this country.  While severe ADHD really does profoundly affect kids and their ability to learn and even function well in their day-to-day lives, there are many classroom and daily living accommodations and behavioral techniques that can be used to ameliorate its effects, except in the most severe cases.  When I was a special ed teacher, I taught kids with severe ADHD- they were so hyper, their eyeballs even sometimes jiggled.  (There was no Adderal back then, although there was Ritalin.)  Not easy to deal with, but I have a real problem with drugging them, especially with Adderal.  Who the heck ever thought it was a good idea to give a kid speed?  Adderal is basically a combination of different amphetamines.  Ritalin has similarities to amphetamines but isn't as potent.  

    Parent
    Easy Diagnosis FOr YOu (none / 0) (#101)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:01:29 PM EST
    I mean I find it to be a fairly powerful drug...almost like an acid trip with lucidity in place of the bug-out.

    I am not a doctor, but my guess is that you do not have ADHD because of your reaction to the drug. For kids and adults with ADHD, Adderal etc, slows them down and allows them to focus, for those without ADHD they experience the drugs as a stimulant and bug out as you did.  As far as your experience with Ritalin v Adderal goes, I assume it is more about variance in dosage (higher milligrams active ingredient) than the brand of drug.

    Parent

    Even people with ADHD (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by andgarden on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:20:21 PM EST
    react in different ways. But it should go without saying that one person's experience with a drug doesn't tell us much.

    Parent
    True (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:28:59 PM EST
    Also true that the nanny state aka police state loves these drugs and they are waaaaay over prescribed. That does not mean that many who could benefit from the drug fall through the cracks and do not get diagnosed, but much normal childhood behavior is now medicated or tasered.

    Another student, this time a 5-year-old, was shipped off to a hospital psychiatric ward for throwing a tantrum.

    These absurd reactions to normal childhood behavior is all part of "Zero Tolerance." Six-year-old Zachary Christie faced disciplinary action after bringing a Cub Scout utensil that can serve as a knife, fork, and spoon to school. Apparently, the state of Delaware is terrified of children shanking each other, and after all, it's the era of Zero Tolerance.

    Treating children as suspects is the new normal in American culture. There is something innately wrong with children. If they're too chatty, they need to be medicated. If they're too angry, they need to be suppressed by a "peace officer." They are not to be trusted, and must be monitored at all times.

    digby

    Parent

    Kids in this country (none / 0) (#114)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 04:01:15 PM EST
    are four times more likely to be prescribed these drugs than kids in any other part of the world.

    Is it just that everyone else is lagging behind us; the way they're lagging behind us in treasuring the American dream, reality tv, regime change and the pork rind and Diet Pepsi diet?

    Parent

    That experience sounds (none / 0) (#109)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:29:55 PM EST
    almost exactly like what people used to say about MDA, and how many now describe being on Ecstasy.

    If really helps you, that's the most important thing.

    Parent

    Amen... (none / 0) (#123)
    by kdog on Sun Mar 14, 2010 at 08:40:00 AM EST
    I ain't judging nobody, if it works it works.

    Just saying if you try the stuff, it gives you a different perspective than just reading a medical journal...I won't pretend to understand how it causes a speedy lucidity for a non-ADHD-er and a sedative lucidity for someone with the disorder.  The brain is heavy.

    Another theory could be it simply triggers an acid flashback when I take it.

    Parent

    Probably right... (none / 0) (#124)
    by kdog on Sun Mar 14, 2010 at 08:42:06 AM EST
    about dosage...I have no clue what the dosages were.

    Parent
    Our educational system (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 09:43:52 AM EST
    makes our health care system look rational.

    Parent
    Actually, DA, I'm doubting any children (none / 0) (#78)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 10:05:59 AM EST
    are sent here to attend the public schools K-12 for the excellence. Private schools, perhaps. Though, I don't want to encourage you to post lengthy quotes to try to back up your statement.

    And, if you want to keep your identity from exposing who you really are, you simply must stop giving jim 1's, and 2's while trying to lay low. Really, what is your obsession about?

    Parent

    If you will follow the bouncing ball up to (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:26:09 PM EST
    Jen M's comment # 4 I trust you will grasp the context of my comment.

    Parent
    zero tolerance in schools (5.00 / 0) (#122)
    by Jen M on Sun Mar 14, 2010 at 08:36:48 AM EST
    Makes a whole lot of befuddling systems look rational.

    Parent
    The Runaways movie trailer... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:41:43 AM EST
    Here's the video for any interested parties (via Shakesville):
    The Runaways tells the tale of Joan Jett and Cherie Currie as they rise to stardom, and "chronicles Joan and Cherie's tumultuous relationship on and off stage," whatever that means.

     

    Texas (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by mmc9431 on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 07:26:50 AM EST
    What is happening to Texas? NYT has an article today on the school board and text books and it's effort to "correct" them. (After all academia is just too liberal).

    I found their new take on civil rights history very interesting. They want the Black Panthers included to show the violent side of the movement. Also they want the books to show how supportive Republican were in passing the bill. (I wonder how they'll dance around school integration and the support the Republican party had for that?)

    They're also taking on separation of church and state, economic principles and the wonders of the great conservative movement that took the country by storm thanks to Reagan!

    Since Texas buys so many text books, this could be more than a Texas issue.

    It's no wonder that our schools are trailing so many countries today. We allow people that have no qualifications (and an agenda)to direct the educational course.

    Been somewhat following that.... (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 08:02:46 AM EST
    caught a little clip of the school board meeting where all but one Dem walked out...good for them, I could not in good conscience sign off on this skewed picture of our history they seem to want to paint.  Not to say lefties don't skew it too...everybody does to some extent.  But you'd think we could all agree on certan core truths, and teach more than one side of every story...guess not.

    Scary that a handful of people could potentially decide the portrayal of US History to millions of kids...all I know is the little ones in my fam are getting a heavy dose of home school history and civics regardless....and deprogramming of school board curriculums, if necessary.

    Parent

    Just the facts ! (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by mmc9431 on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 08:47:39 AM EST
    Maybe if we would just allow the documented facts to be the history, everyone would benefit.

    There's absolutely no way of putting a positive spin on the Republican parties dealing with the civil rights movement. When LBJ signed the bill he was dead right that the Democratic Party would lose the south for at least a generation.

    If they're distorting the other areas as much as they are this one, the students in Texas will really be short changed.

    I'm not sold on home schooling either. I really think half of education is being exposed to ideas that widen your horizons. Developing people skills and learning to survive in society are also important lessons in the public school system.

    Kids do have to learn that life isn't the neat little coccoon that so many parents try to wrap their kids in.

    Parent

    For all the claims the gov't makes (none / 0) (#70)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 09:31:14 AM EST
    (thinking particularly the R's) that we are missioned to make the rest of the world as free and democratic as we are, it seems the conservatives are working systematically behind the scenes to make us more like the countries they constantly criticize.

    They won't be happy until the country is run under the most fundamental christian rule, girls are only educated enough to read a recipe and count their change at the market, and women will make no choice that isn't cleared by the dominant male in her life.


    Parent

    Well, support from some (none / 0) (#72)
    by brodie on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 09:43:34 AM EST
    congressional Repubs was essential in passing the 1964 CR Act, no question about it.  But for Minority Leader Dirksen agreeing finally to vote to stop the longest filibuster in senate history (led by racist southern Dems), the bill would have died.  Of course, but for the hard work by Ds behind the scenes, starting with JFK proposing the bill and then beginning the work of breaking down the resistance of his cong'l friend Dirksen, with considerable buttering-up assistance from Maj Leader Mansfield and Hubert Humphrey, the bill wouldn't have gone forward at all.

    Iow, both sides of the aisle were necessary to get that one passed, especially with the 67 votes needed to invoke cloture back then.  Credit Ds for getting the game started, credit some dozen or more Rs for helping to stop the 4-corner stall.

    Parent

    A teat pary movement rep. was on (none / 0) (#77)
    by oculus on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 09:54:19 AM EST
    local NPR talking about how the tea party movement isn't terrorist but civil rights movement was--see Black Panthers.  Then he talked about Weather Underground, et al. Did admit his movement attracted some fringe extremists.

    Parent
    "tea party"! (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:26:01 AM EST
    With (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by CoralGables on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:45:07 AM EST
    the tea party and the coffee party already rolling, I thought maybe you were referring to a new milkaholic party.

    Parent
    I did scroll past an on-line headline (none / 0) (#91)
    by oculus on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 12:11:53 PM EST
    recently.  Something about a cocktail including breast milk.

    Parent
    ice cream too (none / 0) (#93)
    by observed on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 12:18:37 PM EST
    I ain't talking just home school... (none / 0) (#125)
    by kdog on Sun Mar 14, 2010 at 08:54:51 AM EST
    regular school is important for the social aspects, with the deprogrammed education of history and the arts at home.

    My fam's little ones will learn Huey Newton was a great man fighting oppression...though his tactics were sometimes questionable.

    Parent

    I wonder if we'll ever find out (none / 0) (#67)
    by observed on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 08:14:15 AM EST
    how senile Reagan really was while in office.
    Realistically I think the best way to puncture the Reagan myth would be to show that he was not compos mentis during his second term.
    Democrats have long ceded the policy arguments to this disastrous President's followers.
    Brad Delong has related some anecdotes he learned from formber cabinet officials which are both scary and funny.
    During Reagan's second term, according to Delong, Reagan's real motivation for working on arms reduction with the USSR was the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still".. actually a pretty good reason! He kept on saying "Klaatu,  Klaatu."

    Parent
    I doubt it (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by mmc9431 on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 09:00:44 AM EST
    Republicans have worked overtime to preserve the image they created of Reagan. In addition they used his illness as a shield to protect his legacy.

    One of the first things GWB did when he took office was to seal a lot of the records dealing with Reagan and his dad.

    This is one of the reasons I think we should quit honoring or naming things after politicans until they have been dead for at least 50 years. That way, hopefully, the real facts will have come to light by then.

    Just look at J. Edgar Hoover! What an embarrassment that fiasco is!

    Parent

    I think it was (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by brodie on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 09:52:37 AM EST
    the quality made-for-teevee movie The Day After (1983) which greatly influenced RR's thinking that we needed to stop the arms buildup (which he'd previously encouraged of course).  And it was in RR's 2d term that he found in Gorbachev a leader who was even more willing to talk turkey on arms reduction/elimination than Reagan was.  

    On Reagan and alien movies, I'm not sure about what motivated him to twice make statements in very important speeches relating to the question of Aliens Invading Earth, as a rationale for the Star Wars Defense Program.  I've read speculation that he'd just gotten a Beyond Top Secret deep briefing on the presence of interplanetary ufos in our planet's skies, allegedly, and that it was this that influenced him to be obsessed about talking aliens for a while (a natural reaction though, if this backstory is true).

    Parent

    [Reagan] kept on saying 'Klaatu, Klaatu' (none / 0) (#81)
    by Ellie on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:05:35 AM EST
    Was he (a) boning up on their language to open up diplomatic relations or (b) regretting a flubbed audition from his old acting days?

    Either way, put me down for an OMFG/LOL.

    Parent

    This is interesting: (2.00 / 1) (#87)
    by oculus on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:41:07 AM EST
    AP via Huff Post

    "I can easily imagine him" as a high court nominee, said Erwin Chemerinsky, a Liu supporter and dean of the law school at the University of California, Irvine.

    Although Chemerinsky's endorsement may be the kiss of death.  Imagine Ayers publicly endorsing Obama.

    Chemerinsky= (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by brodie on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:59:24 AM EST
    Ayers?  

    I don't think so.  Law Dean EC is just a well-regarded solid liberal and civil liberties supporter.   Unless you meant the comment as from the perspective of the usual RW suspects in the Repub Pty in Congress.

    Parent

    Can't remember the details, by EC (none / 0) (#92)
    by oculus on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 12:13:08 PM EST
    was appointed Dean of brand new, not yet up and running law school at UCI.  And then the furor began.  I'm fine with EC.  

    Parent
    Hope you have some comment on (none / 0) (#1)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:00:01 PM EST
    the latest stories about Lehmann Brothers, the NY Fed, and Geithner.

    Yves calls for NY Fed (Geither) records release (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by lambert on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 08:10:23 PM EST
    (here) over massive accounting control fraud at Lehman:
    We need to demand an immediate release of the e-mails, phone records, and meeting notes from the NY Fed and key Lehman principals regarding the NY Fed's review of Lehman's solvency. If, as things appear now, Lehman was allowed by the Fed's inaction to remain in business, when the Fed should have insisted on a wind-down (and the failed Barclay's said this was not infeasible: even an orderly bankruptcy would have been preferrable, as Harvey Miller, who handled the Lehman BK filing has made clear; a good bank/bad bank structure, with a Fed backstop of the bad bank, would have been an option if the Fed's justification for inaction was systemic risk), the NY Fed at a minimum helped perpetuate a fraud on investors and counterparties.

    This pattern further suggests the Fed, which by its charter is tasked to promote the safety and soundness of the banking system, instead, via its collusion with Lehman management, operated to protect particular actors to the detriment of the public at large.

    And most important, it says that the NY Fed, and likely Geithner himself, undermined, perhaps even violated, laws designed to protect investors and markets. If so, he is not fit to be Treasury secretary or hold any office related to financial supervision and should resign immediately



    Parent
    The Fed has completely become (none / 0) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 09:39:42 PM EST
    the enemy of the people it sounds like.  So hideous things were going down even before the "crash"?

    Parent
    Now you sound like... (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 06:53:01 AM EST
    my boy Ron Paul:)

    I think Ford was so spot on...if we really understood how the banking con is played, even when it is considered on the up and up, we'd finally be motivated to riot.

    Let's not kid ourselves either, the shadyness is inherent to the system, sending a couple shady cats like Geithner and his board room buddies to prison would accomplish exactly nothing...it's a systemic crime against the people, a crime as old as banking and currency itself.

    What really gives me cold sweats is the thought that we don't have the imagination or will to run a square game....that this is it, till the end of time.

    Parent

    I don't think we had the same problems (none / 0) (#115)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 05:10:17 PM EST
    right after the Great Depression.  I'm with Stiglitz, the system didn't start losing its integrity again until 30 years after the Great Depression.  Everything we had learned brought us to that point though, but those with the power get tired of boring banking is when it is done with integrity.  They see so many opportunities for the big bucks, that after awhile they ask for the integrity to be removed from the system with tiny arguments here and there.  We always wind up back at that the same place, with the fix in, the little people are chattel and nothing more.  The people that really scare me are The Hamilton Project, they desire to remove any possibility of any actual market accountability or real market corrections.  They are attempting to create a forever false economy because they claim that is what is best for all of us.  The Fed now has so much power to influence in market correction in any existing market, there really isn't any way for any of the markets to be genuine reflections of economic health and strength and not simply juiced off of the tax payer whether they like it or not.  It can never actually work though, they will attempt to financially kill us all proving it though.

    Parent
    tough to believe it's even possible at this point (none / 0) (#2)
    by tworivers on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:12:52 PM EST
    but Timmy G. looks even worse in light of recent revelations re: Lehmann.  

    When is Obama going to unload the toxic assets in his economic team?  Enough's enough.

    I'm not that huge of a fan of Dylan Ratigan, but I think this segment was pretty informative.  It helped me get my head around the Lehmann fraud a bit better

    Parent

    Dance with them that brung ya (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by lambert on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 08:12:44 PM EST
    Obama, true to form, might throw one or two of them under the bus. But the same banksters will still own him.

    Parent
    I haven't even heard (none / 0) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 09:37:07 PM EST
    I'm just beginning to feel halfway alive again.  This infection got so big I had a fairly large size fever with it too.  I slept on the couch most of the day, picked Josh up from school and went to his P.T. and then we stopped at Olive Garden.  I think I might wait until to tomorrow to look into what is happening now.  I didn't catch the latest Bill Maher either until late last night when the fever was raging and I couldn't sleep.  I did see Michael Moore in front of Goldman Sachs saying the worst crooks in the country were in there and he wanted soldiers and tanks to surround the building :)  I haven't seen his movie yet either about it all.  But I will soon.  Sean Penn and his voice on Haiti was excellent though.

    Parent
    Anyone watching TV tonight? Not me. (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:28:49 PM EST
    Going to hear traditional Indian music.

    You Must Be an Expert (none / 0) (#6)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:48:21 PM EST
    After your trip.. I only know a bit about pakistani, sufi music.. Qawwali music to be specific. I was a huge fan of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, RIP. It is much more complex than western music, imo.  

    Parent
    oh wow, that's the name I was looking for. (none / 0) (#10)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:57:16 PM EST
    Complex in what way? (none / 0) (#12)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:02:30 PM EST
    You know what's complex? Banjo picking!
    Wow, that stuff is amazing.
    I remember listening to some live banjo playing a few years back. I was reminded of the rich way Beethoven could augment chords in his accompaniments with lowering and raising notes, etc.
    Like in the finale of the Op. 110 sonata.

    I think Flamenco is a perfect art form. It has absolutely everything. I wish I were in Spain, just to watch that.

    Parent

    I love Flamenco also (none / 0) (#15)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:07:27 PM EST
    I saw Ottmar Liebert on Flamenco guitar a couple of months ago and was just blown away. I'd give a lot to be able to play like that.

     I wish there had been dancers too. That would have been perfect.

    Parent

    Quite a few years ago I knew (none / 0) (#18)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:10:30 PM EST
    a Japanese girl who had been bitten by the Flamenco bug. She was getting a degree in German, but spent every waking moment practicing Flamenco, tapping her hands or whatever.
    I'm pretty sure she went completely into Flamenco at some point, but I lost touch a long time ago.
    The phone company wouldn't print her transliterated name correctly, because it had three O's in a row. I thought that was funny.

    Parent
    I made a brief trip to Barcelona (none / 0) (#19)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:11:15 PM EST
    in 1999, and saw one Flamenco show while I was there. Wow..just wow.

    Parent
    Some Info Here (none / 0) (#25)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:34:50 PM EST
    thanks (none / 0) (#27)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:37:47 PM EST
    I just watched a couple videos of him (none / 0) (#32)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:46:33 PM EST
    What an expressive face he had, on top of that wonderful voice.


    Parent
    Can't remember hearing Indian (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 01:02:43 AM EST
    classical music live except maybe at a Silk Road concert.  Hindu ragas stemming from Vedas, so probably no relationship to music heard in Pakistan.  Sitar, Tabla, and tambura.  Very skilled players.  Sitar player is a disciple of Shankar.  Now teaches at UC, as does the Taabla player.  Some parts of their improv reminded me of Dueling Banjos.

    Parent
    What was the name of that fat (none / 0) (#8)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:55:21 PM EST
    Pakistani singer who had some fame in the 80's and 90's? Nusrah ali something? He died in his early 40's about 10 years ago.
    Anyway, he was in Seattle , visiting the UW, in the 90's, and he went to this Pakistani owned Indian Restaurant, Shalimar, which I frequented.
    I saw him there a couple of times, but didn't know that's who it was.  
    I don't know anything about that style of music, but he sure had an impressive voice.
    The timbre of those singers seems similar to Flamenco  to me, and nothing like operatic voices.

    Parent
    some fame???? (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:02:12 PM EST
    That is pretty hilarious, but you did qualify that you do not know anything about Qawali music.

    He is about as famous as any musician that has ever lived.

    Parent

    And Tendulkar is about as famous (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:04:29 PM EST
    as anyone who ever played [blank].
    You need personality lessons, man.
    Lighten up!

    Parent
    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:30:02 PM EST
    I assume the personality lessons you have to offer are at the other blog and not here. lol

    It is true, in general I do not have a great personality, save for the occasional moment. But I am ok with that, as I stopped trying to be popular around 6 or 7 years old because it was clearly not in the cards for me. It is good to know ones limitations.

    Parent

    I wasn't offering. I thought I'd assign (none / 0) (#26)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:34:56 PM EST
    you to Cream City's course.
    By the way, I think Madonna must be a lot more famous than any Qawwali singer.


    Parent
    Must Be (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:42:00 PM EST
    Because America is the center of the world. You need to get out more often, imo.

    Parent
    Where is Qawwali popular? (none / 0) (#33)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:49:10 PM EST
    I know that American and European pop stars get heard all over the world. I would guess that someone like Nusrat Khan wouldn't normally be well known outside of South Asia.
    No?

    I would be very surprised if there is any singer whose worldwide popularity even remotely approaches that of Michael Jackson.

    Parent

    South Asia (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 08:17:11 PM EST
    For starters.

    Parent
    FYI (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 08:20:36 PM EST
    South Asia is home to well over one fifth of the world's population, making it both the most populous and most densely populated geographical region in the world.


    Parent
    Gosh, I had NO idea of the (none / 0) (#43)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 08:29:25 PM EST
    population of South Asia! It was brilliant of you to deduce this from my ignorance about Qawwali.

    For your information: they eat a lot of rice in South Asia. Also, onions are an essential ingredient in almost every main dish, so when there is an onion shortage (as there was a few years ago), it's a big deal.
    Free market types in India want to get rid of salt regulation, so that uniodized salt can be sold to the masses (I'm sure Kdog would approve).
    Sensible people, who don't want millions of children with cretinism, had prevailed last time I read on the topic.

    India is, believe or not, home to  the largest Hindu population in the world! It also has one of the largest Muslim populations and,  not surprisingly, one of the largest Christian populations as well.

    Amitav Ghosh is a wonderful Indian-born writer. I recommend his novel, The Calcutta Chromosome.

    Parent

    If you need graduate level work... (none / 0) (#38)
    by lambert on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 08:14:10 PM EST
    ... talk to me ;-)

    Parent
    I'm not sure if BTD would approve (none / 0) (#42)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 08:20:41 PM EST
    of that course.

    Parent
    Enjoy! (none / 0) (#20)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:12:22 PM EST
    I will find something to veg to (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 09:41:17 PM EST
    DirectTV called though and sold me a viewing of Precious on Sunday.

    Parent
    I didn't have any interest in Precious, (none / 0) (#49)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 09:44:31 PM EST
    but I was curious about the girl, esp. after reading the heartless comments about her weight over at TMZ.
    I saw a little clip of an interview with Oprah.
    She seems to have a wonderful personality.


    Parent
    I had wanted to see it (none / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 09:47:10 PM EST
    but never got it squeezed in with everything else going on.  And of course it wasn't in town here longer than a week.  Avatar however was here for three weeks.

    Parent
    Great film. (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 10:34:25 AM EST
    The most honest movie I've seen in years. Disgustingly believable.

    Parent
    ObamaCare as Bob Dole's 1996 health ins plan-- (none / 0) (#5)
    by jawbone on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:41:27 PM EST
    which the voters rejected back then....

    Avedon at Sideshow sends her readers to Seth Ackerman of A Tiny Revolution on why this is not a "huge progressive victory."

    Commenter Buermann googles some info about the Dole plan so we don't have to:

    For instance, the bill requires insurers to renew policies and prohibits pre-existing condition limitations in new policies, while protecting insurers by allowing reasonable waiting periods. It also limits premium variations to differences based on age, family size, geogra- phy, and other risk factors, but not health condition. Further, the bill blocks states from mandating insurers to include costly benefits that buyers do not want. It introduces malpractice reforms to reduce legal costs, and reforms the antitrust rules to make it easier for groups of physicians or other providers to do business.

    The bill also encourages the creation of purchasing groups, including non-employer associations, to bargain for good insurance rates. But wisely, it does not mandate health alliances, or force- employers to pick plans for their employees. Thus, Americans could join health insurance purchasing associations based on, say, a church, a union or a farm bureau, not just an employer-sponsored pool.

    http://www.heritage.org/Research/SocialSecurity/EM385.cfm

    Not completely point to point comparison, but, dagnabit, pretty close. Close enough for center right political work.

    Shows you how far the window has (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:09:07 PM EST
    mied to the right in the last 15 years. Amazing.

    Parent
    If only we'd elected a Democrat as President! (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by lambert on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 08:14:51 PM EST
    Oh, wait...

    Parent
    Mied? Moved. (none / 0) (#17)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:09:21 PM EST
    OMG. That's absolutely hysterical. (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dan the Man on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:05:59 PM EST
    I saw someone mention that at Corrente, but I wasn't sure where that comparison come.  Mark me down as someone who supports Dolecare over Obamacare because at least Dolecare doesn't have the one thing the Insurance Companies want more than anything else - the Mandate to buy private insurance.

    Dole for 2012!!  He's the old white guy Progressive!!

    Parent

    Mike Bloomberg shows (none / 0) (#7)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:54:34 PM EST
    all the signs of being someone who, despite winning three elections, still doesn't have a clue how politics works.

    To paraphrase Sam Rayburn, he clearly never ran for sheriff.

    Or for IL state Sen? (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 06:56:52 PM EST
    I've made that comparison before. . . (none / 0) (#22)
    by andgarden on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:20:14 PM EST
    So (none / 0) (#21)
    by ruffian on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:19:48 PM EST
    Who is Clark Rockefeller?

    Looking forward to a new ad after Saturday!

    Anyone watching that 'Who Do You Think You Are' show tonight on NBC? They are taking stars and tracing their genealogy, like the Henry Louis Gates show that was on PBS a few weeks ago. I think it is interesting - anyone's genealogy, but of course they have stars cuz it's TV. Last week Sarah Jessica Parker found out her ancestor was accused of witchcraft in Salem. Not sure who is on tonight.

    I'm delighted to read that the (none / 0) (#23)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:29:54 PM EST
    head of the RAMBLA (Roman catholic Man Boy Love Assn), Pope Ratzinger, is getting heat for his role in the coverup of sex abuse in Europe.


    finally we agree on something (none / 0) (#29)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:42:32 PM EST
    or is that what you were talking about (none / 0) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:43:24 PM EST
    I assumed it was the prostitution ring in the vatican


    Parent
    in case anyone missed it (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:45:27 PM EST
    Definitely bookmark-worthy. (none / 0) (#55)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 02:32:31 AM EST
    Celibacy and chasitity (none / 0) (#95)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 01:08:35 PM EST
    two pernicious-in-their-effects anachronisms, right up there with stoning and clitorectomy.

    After everything that's transpired in the last twenty years, you'd think some of the more educated quarters in the Holy Church would've thought to take another look at Freud's theory regarding the connection between sexual repression and perversion.

    Does that require that much of a bold leap of imagination?

    Parent

    Intelligence and religion (none / 0) (#97)
    by mmc9431 on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 01:33:01 PM EST
    are often like water and oil! They don't mix well.

    Why should the Catholic Church be any smarter than we are. Our government is spending millions a year on an abstinence only program that doesn't work.

    Churches across this country have spent millions to push their moral objective. (Rather than for charitable programs that could elevate people instead of tearing them down).

    Parent

    Double Standard (none / 0) (#99)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 01:53:26 PM EST
    Not sure Freud's theory of repression is applicable to the Church, unless you are referring to what they preach not what they practice. As far as I understand homosexuality and the priesthood has a very long tradition, no repression there amongst the initiated.

    In fact I believe that one of the main reasons that the church is losing applicants for priesthood is that homosexuality is becoming accepted as normal.  

    Parent

    I was thinking (none / 0) (#116)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 05:48:46 PM EST
    of all the pedophilia. I dont think people are gay because they're repressed, or that homosexuality falls under the category of perversion.

    Parent
    Hmmm (none / 0) (#117)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 06:12:32 PM EST
    I guess I meant to imply that historically many of those interested in entering into the priesthood, start their training at an early age.

    Parent
    And For A Few (none / 0) (#118)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 06:36:01 PM EST
    Who wind up in an all boys catholic school it's heaven, but for most it is hell.

    Parent
    It's All OK Now (none / 0) (#119)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 08:08:48 PM EST
    But that raises a question for me: if the Pope is infallible and it turns out that he was involved in the pedophile priest scandal, as now looks likely, does that mean that pedophilia would now be considered an act ordained by God?

    digby

    Parent

    No, I was talking about the pedo (none / 0) (#34)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:50:35 PM EST
    priest. I don't have any objection to using prostitutes---I mean, for other people!


    Parent
    I dont have an objection to (none / 0) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 07:53:31 PM EST
    using prostitutes either
    that doesnt mean I cant laugh my a$$ off at the idea of using the freakin Vatican Choir as a stable

    Parent
    I've been playing over (none / 0) (#44)
    by observed on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 08:59:16 PM EST
    go games by chinese professionals from a recent league. There's a neat site, gobase.org, with a large library of games and problems.
    While I don't play any go now, I can sort of keep some skill up by playing over games.
    The replay software has a neat guess the move feature, where a bar shows more or less green depending how close you are to the proper move.
    The subtitle for the site is "Go, an addictive game". Boy is that EVER true.
    I gave up playing chess on line several years ago, and I had avoided playing go online because I figured I wouldn't be able to stop.
    I did an experiment when I had a few weeks free about 3 years ago. Boy, was I right about playing go online. One day I spent 18 hours straight on a go server. I'm not sure if I went to the bathroom, but i probably did.
    There were lots of Japanese guys on there with 10,000, 20,000 or more games in their history, which  probably means they have been playing for 3-5 hours a day, every day, for many years.

    Cool (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 11:12:22 PM EST
    It used to be that the elite intelligentsia would be impressed by a person who could play a good game of chess, now excellent chess plater, is poo poo, because a computer can beat any of them while a computer cannot win at go,  beyond a beginning level.

    Go is the new chess.

    Parent

    what is go? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Mar 12, 2010 at 11:44:51 PM EST
    do you play alone or against someone?

    Parent
    Strategic board game. I see (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by observed on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 06:28:12 AM EST
    squeaky put a link in. It's played on a 19x19 board. Mathematically speaking, it's many orders of magnitude more complicated than chess.
    There are no places, only stones of two colors which you place on the board. Connections are made laterally but not diagonally, and connected shapes have various properties which you learn from experience. One makes points by surrounding territory with your connected stones, and also by capturing your opponent's stones.

    The game has been around for thousands of years,  and there's a vast literature on the subject.
    In imperial Japan, rival "houses" of go players played for titles. Games could go on for many days or even weeks. The most prestigious titles in Japan are named after these old, imperial ones: Honinbo, Meijin.

    In about 1996 I met Iwamoto Kaoru, who was Honinbo in the 1940's. In fact, he was playing a title match in August 1945 in Hiroshima. The police chief had warned them to play outside of the city because Hiroshima was known to be a prime target. On Aug. 7th, they were playing their game when the bomb was dropped. Iwamoto thought that some munitions factories had been blown up, but then the ghastly survivors started walking by and he knew.
    It was because of his experience watching the very worst horrors of war that he devoted his later years and his own wealth to spreading the game of go around the world, to promote peaceful understanding between peoples. He spent several million dollars building go centers around the world.

    I've played a lot of go and chess, and I recommend teaching go to your children over chess.
    Interestingly, the availability of cheap computer programs which play better chess than any human has led to an explosion of new talent in the chess world, because literally anyone can learn at a high level today. Also, at elite levels, opening theory has become much more interesting, as people are able to use computers to check lines which they would never have considered before.
    Chess may remain a viable competitive game for some time.
    Computers are improving at go. There's little doubt that a computer will beat a human at some point. In my opinion this will impact the game less than chess, because go is so much more complicated than chess that memorization of computer lines would not be very useful.

    There are several concrete reasons that go is  a superior competitive game to chess.
    First, there are no draws---well, there are some VERY rare repetition of move scenarios, but far more than 99% of games end in a victory.
    Second, the variety of openings is such that the appearance of games is much less stale than chess: very often a game is unique within 15 or 20 moves, whereas in chess, one sees the same positions over and over and over.
    Third, go has a handicap system which allows for competitive games between players of very different levels.
    The very strongest player in Japan last century ---Chinese born Go Seigen, who is still alive at 99 or so---was so strong that in the 1940's and 50's he pushed all of the strongest players to the minimum handicap.
    He played a famous game against  Honinbo Shusai in his youth which was described in the book, The Master of Go.
    This game went on for many weeks. Shusai barely won, and that only because he was given an unfair advantage. He could postpone play at any time without sealing a move. When the game got tough, he took the position home and studied it with his team.

    I also enjoy solving go problems. There's a fascinating set of about 150 problems which was in a secret training manual from one house.
    These problems are used for study by professionals today.
    Some of them take days to solve. There's one fantastic problem called Dosetsu's Masterpiece, whose solution is 150 moves long or so. It's really a whole game problem where a complicated situation in one area forces the play for the rest of the game. It is a stupendous intellectual and creative achievement of the very highest order.
    No solutions were given in the manual, by the way. I'm not sure that all problems from the set are solved. I can find most of them online.
    The solution we have to Dosetsu's masterpiece was constructed by a modern Japanese player along with his students. It took over 1,000 hours of work to piece together their solution.
    In the last few years, an alternative move at one point has been found which causes a problem for their solution. Maybe it will take another 1000 hours to fix that.
     

    Parent

    no *pieces", not "places". (none / 0) (#58)
    by observed on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 06:47:14 AM EST
    Most illuminating (none / 0) (#61)
    by kidneystones on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 07:04:30 AM EST
    I play, but I'm not in anyone's league. Congratulations, really, and thanks!

    My principal objection to the game is that it takes too long to play. There are plenty of books, as you know I'm sure, with small tactical problems that require less time.

    And for the 'I prefer checkers' crowd. Me! There's always Othello, played on a much smaller board and easy to finish in thirty minutes or less.

    I played one ranked chess player a million years ago. He was able to provide detailed commentary and feedback on our game several weeks after the fact.

    Cheers!

    Parent

    Checkers is a great game. (none / 0) (#62)
    by observed on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 07:16:17 AM EST
    Why the checker players simply didn't decide to play on a 13x13 board or so escapes me.
    I know that draughts (played on a 10x10 board) is still popular in Europe, but I never learned the rules.

    Parent
    GoBase (none / 0) (#53)
    by squeaky on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 12:59:14 AM EST
    It is a competitive game, like chess.

    Parent
    Go's so fun; used to play with a 'Games Cuz' (none / 0) (#83)
    by Ellie on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:24:05 AM EST
    We were evenly matched, so every family event would have a match of (pick it): Chess, Checkers, Go, Parcheesi, Battleship ... you name it, everything short of Duels with Pistols at Dawn (but only because we couldn't find anyone stupid enough to be our seconds).

    Parent
    Hope these Reps. hold the line: (none / 0) (#85)
    by oculus on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:28:30 AM EST
    This is bizarre: (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Sat Mar 13, 2010 at 11:35:54 AM EST