home

Tuesday Night Open Thread

The U.S. is considering extraditing Wikileaks founder Julian Assange. What would the charges be? Attorney General Eric Holder today said an investigation is underway and charges other than espionage are being considered. Like what?

Among them, law enforcement sources said, is charging Assange with receiving stolen property.

The Guardian has details of the sexual assault allegations against him. They seem pretty weak.

MADD is on the warpath again. This time they want Congress to pass a law requiring alcohol ignition interlocks for all first-time drunken-driving offenders.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< TX Appeals Court Halts Hearing on Death Penalty | John Lennon: It Was 30 Years Ago Today >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Bob Beckel on Fox News (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 08:24:57 PM EST
    is calling for the assassination of Julian Assange. Said "This guy's a traitor, he's treasonous." My question, if Julian Assange is Australian how is he a traitor to the United States? How are his actions treason if he not a US citizen?

    Shorter Beckel... (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:55:47 AM EST
    if you don't like what somebody has to say, it is ok to murder them.  Who does this guy think he is, the ayatollah?

    Peter King, Newt, countless others...they're f*ckin' certifiable just like their islamo-loon counterparts.

    There's treason here somewhere Chuck, but not where the bedwetters think it is.

    Parent

    Marc Thiessen (none / 0) (#13)
    by SOS on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:04:44 PM EST
    . . American author, columnist and political commentator, who served as a speechwriter for George W. Bush (2004-2009) and Donald Rumsfeld (2001-2004).

    "You're either with us, or you're with WikiLeaks"  

    Parent

    My one and only cat died last night (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 08:28:49 PM EST
    Was hit by a car.  I'm allergic to cats, very allergic.  My daughter pointed out this three legged kitten though to me at the dumpster of Captain D's and I didn't know what to do.  I scooped him up and tried to take him to a shelter but no dice, the whole place was full to the hilt and they had a resp. infection in the facility too and no cats would be considered taken into the facility at that time.  I brought him home and he lived on the front porch.  Later on he came inside because I'm on so much for allergy meds here now due to an almost shock inducing allergy to common molds outdoors that my "cat allergy" doesn't even register now.

    I have been not myself all day.  He was very special.  I can never find another like him, who loved me and tolerated me inspite of my horrible allergies, my sporadic pettings followed by an unwanted flea treatment.  He never clawed the furniture, only had three legs....was missing a back leg and couldn't sit straight to claw the furniture.....but didn't even really try.  Knew I hated the snakes around the house in the yard and killed the young snakes, fangs through the head, and then left them in front of the front door on the porch so I would know he was doing his part to relieve the mistress.  My husband's family is a cat family, and he tells me that Tyler was a once in a lifetime cat.  And I've had him and now he is gone.

    Really sorry MT (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by ruffian on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:07:32 PM EST
    They really get into your heart, don't they, despite the many practical difficulties that can arise. You just can't say no to that love. Sounds like he found a good family and had a good life #?. Take care- I know it's hard when you expect to see them in the usual places.

    Parent
    Sorry about your cat... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by desertswine on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:12:47 PM EST
    kind of leaves a hole in your life when they're gone doesn't it. I have two.

    Parent
    Sorry for your loss, MT. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:55:58 PM EST
    So sorry to hear MT (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by smott on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 10:14:46 PM EST
    They really do enrich our lives. We think we're taking care of them, but the reverse is true.

    I'll give my 16-yr old, half-Siamese, 1-eyed,  Bugsy a hug for you.

    Parent

    Oh, Tracy, I am so sorry. (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 10:35:03 PM EST
    It's hard enough to lose them to old age or illness, but to lose them to the violence of being hit by a car is just awful.

    You have to wonder sometimes whether whatever higher power there is knew that you would be a three-legged kitty's best hope for survival, and in return, that a cat with three legs would have a heart so grateful that he would do his best to live up to the fierceness of your love for him.

    Sending you a hug, and wishing godspeed to Tyler.

    Parent

    He'll always be in your heart. (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 11:47:10 PM EST
    They really do stay with you.

    I'm so sorry for your loss. I know how much it hurts :( They really know how to getcha don't they?

    Parent

    Sorry (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 05:32:06 AM EST
    for your cat and you, MT. Give some extra hugs to your dogs. My kids just got a cat a few months ago and it's the first one for us too.

    Parent
    so sorry (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:21:29 AM EST
    I also have cat allergies and a cat.

    Parent
    wow (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:27:07 AM EST
    reading your comment made me remember a dream I had last night about finding a stray kitten and taking it home.

    that was pretty much all of it that I remember

    Parent

    sort of pathetic (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:32:22 AM EST
    that I ever DREAM about bringing home stray animals.

    Parent
    Tyler knows you now (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:37:33 AM EST
    but has never been able to say hello to you till now I guess.  I finally broke down sobbing last night.  Then I shopped for a new dining room set.  Haven't been able to find one for months that I liked but then did find one that was interesting.  It had a pedestal that was a wine rack on top of a storage base and it was that new "counter" height.  My husband said that it would be hard for Josh to get into and out of the chairs and he might not be very stable that high up.  I said that we could add a type of seatbelt to one of the chairs.  Then my spouse said that would be fine as long he is willing he guesses to lift our son up into a chair for dinner until he is sixteen.  Then I started laughing finally.  Then he said that he hoped Josh wouldn't fall off the wino express, laughing got worse.  Then he said, "Just think when friends come over and you need to grab any old chair for more chairs....they'll all be eye level to the table."  That put me over the top and I felt better, but I still miss him like crazy.  I had to go get Tyler and try to hide him from Josh, and failed to get that done well because I looked sort of frantic and hystercial and Joshua had to know why, he had to peak....it is only natural.

    Parent
    maybe a funny cat story (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:46:28 AM EST
    I have been doing my best to get this on video but so far I have failed.  but I WILL keep trying cause I think it could be the biggest thing since the hiccuping farting cat.

    so, I have this big fat lazy tom cat.  about 20-25 pounds of him.  the male huskie has discovered he likes to lick his butt.  not talking one or two friendly licks but on and ON.  
    the cat will just lay there with one hind leg in the air making this RRRRRROOOOOOWWWWWWWWWW growling sound that sort of sounds aggressive but it quickly becomes clear that it is not aggression he is expressing.
    I am always like AYYYYYY stop it.  do that sh!t when I am at work. thats just wrong on so many levels.

    and laughing at the same time.


    Parent

    Who knows how many hits (none / 0) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:49:55 AM EST
    you'll get on youtube?  Off the charts :)

    Parent
    Hope your allergies are not so bad (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by smott on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:01:21 AM EST
    That you can't consider another furry addition to the family. I went about 1 day cat-less before I went out and got Bugsy from a Petland 10 mins before it closed...

    It helps to heal your heart.

    Bugsy was wailing in his box when I got him into the car, so I took him out and put him in my lap. It was winter and he crawled inside my jacket and sat there purring wildly while I burst in to tears. I drove him home that way.

    He still likes to get in to coats/jackets/under blankets....doesn't sit on my lap but under the wrap over my knees.

    He's currently fast asleep under a goose-down quilt on the bed...

    Parent

    I will probably look for something to rescue (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:31:22 AM EST
    something with no other options like Tyler.  When I took him to the shelter that first day I put him in a puppy crate.  He made no sound at all that day locked in the crate riding around in the car to and fro.  A few months later though, once he knew he was loved and he was on his way to the vet to get fixed I couldn't believe the noise and fracas.  He mattered now damn it and he knew it.  Open this thing now, I have rights! :)

    Parent
    always best (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:40:51 AM EST
    that is how I got my cat. it was me or the shelter and he would have died there.

    Parent
    Here's one (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by smott on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:00:34 AM EST
    A few years back when I lived in a dodgy eighborhood, I was walking home from the bus stop, about 2 blocks from my apt, when 2 young black kids, a sister and brother, approached me, holding a bedraggled white cat. The girl was maybe 10 and her brother about 6 - I knew them enough to say hi.

    They asked me to take their cat.
    Their loved it, but their father hated it and had thrown it out the window, and it had injured its leg.

    I had no clue what to do, and my own cat was pretty aggressive so did not think I could take it myself more than temporarily, but said I'd try to help. Went home and called everyone I knew - a family that is friends of ours had just lost their dog, and said OK. They had three young daughters at the time.

    I went back up the block and they were waiting with the cat.  I promised them he was going to a good home where no one would hurt him and would love him just like they did. The little boy was upset, but the little girl handed him over willingly, I guess even so young understanding that to love him they had to let him go.

    He purred all the way over in the car, sitting up on the head rest. Just an amiable fellow. His new family took him to the vet and his leg was OK. The girls loved him and named him Romeo.

    Later that same evening I got an excited call from my Mom - her cat who'd disappeared for a week and thought to be lost, had finally turned up (locked in someone's basement).

    There was good Cat Karma that night....


    Parent

    We saved a kitten in Korea (none / 0) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:16:46 AM EST
    some kids had snuck into our building and onto the roof and had dropped her three stories or some sort of childhood experiment...Oy.  I was coming out of our place....we rented the whole third floor, when all three scurried by carrying it back up to roof again.  Rooftops are utilized in Korea, are all made flat, but the roof technically belonged to us and was part of our lease.  So I asked them what they were doing, they were Korean but most of them understand more English than I do Korean, and all three looked really guilty and one of them held the kitten out to me....a little tiny calico.  I took it in my hand and all three ran.  My husband looked at the kitten, looked at me, looked at our daughter, sighed and said that he supposed the girls would have to save it.  We drove from Camp Humpheries to OSAN Air Force base where there was a vet, and she checked out okay, just a little sprained for awhile.  We kept her for two weeks and advertised her on Camp Humpheries and a family adopted her that wasn't allergic but had to leave their two kitties stateside with grandma to go overseas.  She was a pretty little thing, and sweet.

    Parent
    Oh no! (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by sj on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:09:25 AM EST
    I am so very, very sorry.

    Parent
    hey (none / 0) (#69)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:14:11 AM EST
    was it you the other day who was of the opinion that it is hearing that allows the dogs to know there is a rabbit in the yard (as opposed to smell) with all the doors and windows closed and the heat on?
    if not it was someone.  I asked the question but had not opinion.
    yesterday I watched this NatGeo doc called:

    the science of dogs

    very very interesting.  after watching I have to say I think its smell.  a big part of that is about how the smell.  its amazing.
    it streams from netflix.

    Parent

    I kinda remember a conversation ... (none / 0) (#94)
    by sj on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:21:41 AM EST
    ... about this.  I don't recall opining about the rabbit, but I am still amazed their perception, and I have wondered about their hearing.  Specifically,

    1.  according to my friend, my dog starts anticipating my arrival when I must be no closer than the traffic light 2 long blocks away.

    2.  his dog starts anticipating his arrival at about the same distance but he travels by bicycle.

    I'm willing to entertain the idea that it's smell.  or hearing.  or a combination.  or ESP.

    I just think it's amazing.

    I'd like to see that program, but I'm not signed up for Netflix.  Some months I don't want to watch anything.  Other times I can spend the whole weekend in front of the TV, but that's far more rare.  A monthly subscription is not cost effective for me.

    Parent

    There was TV special on several years ago (none / 0) (#149)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:58:29 PM EST
    About dogs like that. They had a camera at the house and one with the person while they were out shopping or something. The dog was doing it's own thing and then at some point when the person was heading home, the dog went to window and just started wagging it's tail, waiting. I can't remember what it was on, but it was pretty interesting.

    Parent
    oddly (none / 0) (#151)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:03:33 PM EST
    I was just talking about this with a friend yesterday.  the friend who pointed me to the documentary.
    he and his girlfriend both have dogs.  and they both say that almost from the moment either of them leave one house for the other the dogs start running around, looking out the window and waiting at the door.

    and they have done tests where they are very careful not to give the dog any clues.  they even put a web cam in daves house to watch his Chihuahua  

    Parent

    Further to prior thread, re. Wikileaks/Assange... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:01:58 PM EST
    Replying to a comment by Anne.

    Greenwald and Salon have been stellar on Wikileaks throughout, as has FireDogLake. I first saw the particulars of the "Sex by Surprise" charges against Assange, via Jezebel, a couple of days ago, but the story you linked to from FDL does a better job of covering it: Julian Assange Arrested in London. It appears the British press has the full police reports.

    Assange is being held on a "sex by surprise" charge. He has not been arrested for rape; the sex in question was consensual. Apparently, the issue is whether or not a condom was used and whether the woman requested one. The charge, only part of the Swedish criminal code and not the UK, carries a fine of 5,000 kronor, or $715. To sum up, Interpol issued an international warrant, and Britain honored it for Sweden, over a case that has a fine of $715 and no jail time. Assange has pleaded innocence to the charge.

    There's certainly no shortage of things to talk about here: the corporate crack-down on Wikileaks, i.e. Amazon blocking access to Wikileaks servers; the defunding of Wikileaks  by PayPal, Mastercard, and Visa; the DOJ, State Department, and Democratic Senators targeting Wikileaks; the broader implications for Net Neturality; the international drag-net in pursuit of these particular sex charges against Assange, etc.

    I continue to be alarmed (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Anne on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 10:28:04 PM EST
    by how the government is reacting to WikiLeaks, and astounded at the amount of deliberate misinformation, manipulation and misdirection being disseminated in the media.

    Deep in my heart, though, I knew something like this was eventually going to happen; the territorialism that was made to look like patriotism in the wake of the attacks of 9/11, the government's growing belief that it was entitled to operate as it pleased, in as much secrecy as it wanted, regardless of the rule of law, our elected representatives' failure to hold anyone accountable, and the media's failure to be more than a propaganda outlet, were bound to one day come up against someone or some organization that saw no other avenue but the one WikiLeaks has taken.

    I'm rooting for WikiLeaks, mainly because I think this could be one of those fork-in-the-road moments, where, if we allow the government and the media - and far too many in elected office - to quash WikiLeaks, we could be looking at the death of the First Amendment; it's frightening to contemplate what that would mean.

    I always thought it would be us - the people - who would be in the streets with torches and pitchforks going after those in the government who betrayed the public trust, not us running from the government going after us with those torches and pitchforks.

    Parent

    Charlie Rose (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by NYShooter on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 11:27:58 PM EST
     had four guests on tonight: all Democrats, all from different points of the spectrum, and all spoke with disbelief at the incompetence shown by this White House in its dealing with the Repubs.

    They basically said that if negotiations took place with only the Republican's offer on the table we would have ended up with a better deal than what we got after Obama got involved.


    I listened to Bernie Sanders last night too (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:00:40 AM EST
    discussing how negotiation has not happened yet, there has not been a serious debate and discussion and Republicans who have been losing their minds about the deficit but also insist that the rich need these giant tax breaks haven't even been called out and named.

    I suspect all of that is deliberate, though Bernie refused to entertain such talk and notions and only called for the real debate and the calling outs to begin.  It didn't take place though before a "deal" was struck because Obama got exactly what he wanted IMO, and Obama will do things to attempt to shut down a developing debate and keep it from happening by doing what?  Calling out Democrats and others in office who are beginning to demand that this public debate and putting faces and names to votes and rhetoric begin to take place NOW.

    Parent

    I got to thinking yesterday that (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:30:59 AM EST
    what Obama did yesterday - holding that press conference to announce a deal that Democrats hadn't been involved in  - was consistent with an end-run a Republican president would have done around a Democratic majority opposition; does a Democratic president back his own party into a corner to make it more likely they will go along with a deal that was pretty much all-Republican?

    Apparently so, but it doesn't seem to have tamed them so much as it has pretty much hacked them off; I guess Obama's political brilliance isn't as apparent to others as he thinks it is.  Which doesn't mean they won't eventually cave on their opposition to the plan, but I think it might mean the beginning of some much-needed independence by what is supposed to be an independent branch of government.

    We'll see soon enough.

    I keep thinking about Obama's statement that the country was founded on compromise, which (1) isn't how I understood our fight for independence to have been won and (2) makes one wonder why he apparently didn't take that line with the GOP.  Oh, wait - I keep forgetting that the compromise was that he got them to accept "temporary" instead of "permanent."  

    Silly me.


    Parent

    The next two years are going to be very lonely (none / 0) (#34)
    by shoephone on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:03:58 AM EST
    for this president.

    Was it Truman who said, if you want a friend in Washington, get a dog? Well, how's Bo holding up these days, anyway?

    Parent

    MADD (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by DancingOpossum on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:28:59 AM EST
    MADD is turning more and more into a prohibition advocacy group rather than an anti-drunk-driving one. One prime example is their refusal to take any stand on cell phone use or texting while driving. Since these behaviors cause as much impairment as driving under the influence, you would think they would be all over this if their mission were truly to stop all deadly driving accidents.

    That said, drunk drivers do cause enormous misery and we need to figure out some way to deter them. I always liked the "drinking license" as opposed to "driving license" idea.

    That also said, those alcoholic energy drinks won't be missed by anyone. They are a truly killer combination of things nobody should put in their body.

    MT, so sorry about your furperson's death. I have loved and lost many of them and it is never easy.

    Drunk drivers (none / 0) (#82)
    by sj on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:36:42 AM EST
    I would say that cell phone use causes more impairment than driving under the influence.  In the entire time I have been driving, there have been about a dozen incidents where I perceived that another driver was clearly under the influence and was a danger to him/herself and others.  

    Running errands, one can encounter the same number of dangerous cell phone users in one day.  At that's just the perceptible impairment.

    I am very pleasantly surprised at how effective the Maryland cell phone laws have been.  My driving experience is much better overall.

    Parent

    Seems like I'm not the only one (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:33:12 PM EST
    in MA who doesn't want Dems to vote for this.

    Link

    From the globe:

    "No one in the 10-member, all-Democratic delegation has embraced the compromise plan that Obama struck with Republicans, and some are outright opposed."

    ""I strongly disagree," Representative Barney Frank, a Newton Democrat, said this morning. He said he would vote against the deal, although he also said it likely had enough votes to pass. "You have overwhelming Republican support and enough Democrats to do it," he said. "

    Pretty much what I've been saying.  As always, Capuano's good for a few sound bites:

    ""I do know one thing: you never get anything unless you fight," he added. "And my analogy has been, I'm not going to bring President Obama with me to buy my next car. I'll end up paying more, and it won't have a radio in it."

    MADD again?? (4.00 / 3) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 08:24:43 PM EST
    Down here in TN we have a State Senator, who just lost a race for a US Rep seat, wanting to outlaw so-called alcoholic energy boost drinks.. with jail time for sales...

    Kdog is making more sense every day.

    And that's scary.

    You might want to do some (2.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:07:53 PM EST
    of that there investigating on the Internets about some of the problems associated with alcoholic energy drinks:

    A beverage with the combined potency of both an energy drink and 12-percent alcohol is on the verge of being banned by the federal government.

    But in Yuba-Sutter, those polled at a handful of liquor and convenience stores Wednesday evening said they won't be sorry to see Four Loko, or similar beverages, disappear from shelves.

    "They're off the hook," said Chris Gierut, 27, of Marysville, after he bought a 40-ounce beer at a store on Highway 20. "I had two tall cans of Four Loko once, and afterward I was pretty well intoxicated."

    Gierut said he'd be fine with the drinks being banned because he didn't see any good from having the caffeine-alcohol combination in a 23.5-ounce can.

    The U.S. Food and Drug Administration appears ready to take action against drink manufacturers in response to stories across the country implicating Four Loko and similar beverages in everything from burglary to fatal car crashes.



    Click Me

    From the AP, via the Mother Nature Network:

    Central Washington University has determined that a high-alcohol energy drink under scrutiny nationwide is what sickened students at an off-campus party this month, prompting state Attorney General Rob McKenna to call for a ban on the beverage.

    Nine students were hospitalized after the Oct. 8 party in Roslyn, where about 50 people had been drinking. Some students had blood-alcohol levels ranging from 0.12 percent to 0.35 percent after consuming cans of the drink called Four Loko, CWU President James L. Gaudino said at a news conference Monday. Other students mixed the drink with additional alcohol, he said.

    McKenna said his office would lead an effort to ban such caffeinated malt liquors this year after a previous proposal died in the state legislature.

    "It's time to bring an end to the sale of alcoholic energy drinks," McKenna said. "They're marketed to kids by using fruit flavors that mask the taste of alcohol, and they have such high levels of stimulants that people have no idea how inebriated they really are."

    McKenna said he wants to lead a national push to restrict the sales of the drinks.

    Four Loko is made by Phusion Projects Inc., of Chicago. It comes in several varieties, including fruit punch and blue raspberry. A message left with the company was not immediately returned.

    A 23.5-ounce can of Four Loko sells for about $2.50 and has an alcohol content of 12 percent, making it comparable to drinking five to six beers. The caffeine in the drink can also suspend the effects of alcohol consumption, allowing a person to consume more than usual, officials said.

    All the students who were hospitalized were freshmen ranging in age from 17 to 19, and they were inexperienced drinkers, Gaudino said. A female student nearly died, he said.

    Click Me

    "The combination of caffeine and alcohol is nothing to toy with," Dr. Spencer Gregg, who works at the Student Health Center, said. "The caffeine and the alcohol work in two different ways. The alcohol makes you inebriated, and the caffeine cancels out the effects."

    Gregg went on to say that people lose their inhibitions and attempt more things they regularly would not.

    "People who drink these beverages are more likely to do things such as drink and drive or participate in other risky behaviors," he said.

    A report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention states that drinkers who consume alcohol with energy drinks are twice as likely as people who do not mix alcohol with energy drinks to be taken advantage of sexually, take advantage of someone else sexually or drive under the influence.

    The interaction between the two substances can also lead to heavy drinking, which has hospitalized people across the country.

    "Generally, when someone drinks, the alcohol acts as a depressant, and they will eventually get tired and want to sleep," Gregg said. "Alcohol combined with caffeine has the opposite effect. The person feels more alert and tends to drink more. This can lead to blacking out, alcohol poisoning and, even worse, possible death."

    People who consume alcohol with energy drinks are three times more likely to binge drink, the report says. The gratuitous amounts of caffeine that students can intake by drinking multiple energy drinks can lead to heart dysrhythmia and even seizures.

    Click Me

    Like we can't make our own Irish Coffe or mix our own Red Bull & Vodkas when the authoritarians pull the pre-mixed from the shelves and have a fine, chain & cage party...talk about diddling while Rome burns.

    This isn't your father's Irish Coffee, from the Rachel Maddow Show:

    Here`s today`s moment of geek question, though.  Haven`t we been drinking caffeinated booze forever?  I`m from San Francisco, home of the Irish coffee, right?  Remember when we had the king of all bartenders, Dale DeGroff, here making Irish coffee on this show?  Heavy cream, sugar, whiskey and coffee?  Whiskey as in alcohol?  Coffee as in caffeine?

    Nobody calls that blackout in a footed heavy glass mug the way they call this blackout in a can.  That said, people also don`t drink 24-ounce containers of Irish coffee containing more than seven shots of whiskey, which is what you would be talking about in terms of equivalent dosages between those two beverages.



    Click Me

     

    Parent
    C'mon Harry... (none / 0) (#118)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:45:48 PM EST
    nobody is saying the sh*t is wheatgrass juice...but a ban?  What are we, children?

    Besides, all a ban is gonna do is make it cooler to drink this stuff.

    My own county is going totally bonkers, talking about banning energy drinks all together for teens...what planet do this legislative wizards come from, Tyrannus?

    Parent

    I'm not a Puritan (none / 0) (#134)
    by Harry Saxon on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:31:46 PM EST
    but I don't think this stuff would sell if you had a warning label than mentioned some of the side-effects listed above.

    Something which can lead to alcoholic poisoning and near-death in an inexperienced drinker isn't your fathers Irish Coffee or the same as someone getting amped up on 4 or 5 Red Bulls.

    Parent

    I didn't need caffeine... (none / 0) (#152)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:05:08 PM EST
    to poison myself with alcohol as an inexperienced drinker...just partiers fortitude and youthful stupidity.

    Granted I haven't tried this new stuff, but I don't think it could be much worse than Cisco, aka "liquid crack", the old alcohol crisis du jour.

    Parent

    Warning labels (none / 0) (#199)
    by sj on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 03:22:17 PM EST
    Yeah, that's been real effective so far :)

    Parent
    the pressure of the masses. (none / 0) (#20)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:55:08 PM EST
    Might be why we don't have direct democracy at the federal level...

    Agreed, Jim. I'm not going to drink one, but criminalizing selling a can. A can sealed possibly in another state.

    Commerce clause, any lawyers in the house?

    Parent

    New York... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:42:03 AM EST
    also has its knickers in a bunch over caffeinated alcoholic beverages...not in 1910, but here in 2010.  It's freakin' sad.

    Like we can't make our own Irish Coffe or mix our own Red Bull & Vodkas when the authoritarians pull the pre-mixed from the shelves and have a fine, chain & cage party...talk about diddling while Rome burns.

    Parent

    someone read the memoir blog, it's lonely (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 08:25:45 PM EST
    Level with me brother... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:50:13 AM EST
    not a day goes by where you don't wonder what would have happened had you gone to work for Larry Flynt.

    You coulda maybe found your way into a seat in his legendary poker game and owned half the publishing rights by now:)

    Good stuff bro!

    Parent

    thanks for the read, dog (none / 0) (#95)
    by Dadler on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:22:28 AM EST
    i coulda been a porn mogul!

    Parent
    Or at least... (none / 0) (#99)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:42:22 AM EST
    gave the horndog subscribers witty quips to go along with their pron fix...and with your skills you would have been promoted to the a-hole of the month column in no time!

    And thank you for the ride...

    Parent

    Normal Heights, cool. (none / 0) (#128)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:17:08 PM EST
    I finally followed your link. Didn't realize it led to the good ol' San Diego Reader. I'm going to give your whole story a good read. I'm an old OB local now living out east. Done my share of wandering around Normal Heights, North Park, etc. Now if I could just find a Roberto's for a carne asada burrito, life would once again be in balance.

    Parent
    I wouldn't be surprised if (none / 0) (#5)
    by observed on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 08:35:45 PM EST
    Assange dies in custody.

    If it happens (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 08:39:10 PM EST
    I will be completely surprised and shocked.  I just can't bring myself to believe that this about his leaking outside of his leaking unwrapped snuck in wick :)

    Parent
    Hmm.. so all of us could go to jail? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 08:51:25 PM EST
    The "stolen property" that was stolen was, presumably, the classified cables.  The government would argue Assange received the "stolen property" when he got the classified cables.

    But then any of us who read any part of the classified cables also received the "stolen propery" (ie the classified cables) when we downloaded parts of the cables on to our computer via a web browser (ie Internet Explorer, Firefox, etc).  So, in theory, the government could imprison any one in the world who has read even a part of the Wikileaks cables in newspapers, magazines, blogs, etc ie they could send much of the world to jail.

    Gary Sick . . (none / 0) (#15)
    by SOS on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:06:53 PM EST
    prominent Middle East expert who served on the National Security Council under Presidents Ford, Carter, and Reagan, went even further in repudiating the memo.

    "If anyone is a master's student in international relations and they haven't heard of WikiLeaks and gone looking for the documents that relate to their area of study, then they don't deserve to be a graduate student in international relations," Sick told Wired.com in an interview.

    Parent

    Where ya been Dan... (none / 0) (#101)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:45:35 AM EST
    the law books are so polluted, pretty much everybody is subject to arrest at all times...free innocent people are difficult to control, criminals under threat of arrest otoh, they tend not to complain, question, or protest too much, lest they draw attention to themselves.

    Parent
    Ex-National Security Advisor (none / 0) (#8)
    by SOS on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 08:56:20 PM EST
    Zbigniew Brzezinski

    Brzezinski: I am very worried that most Americans are close to total ignorance about the world. They are ignorant. That is an unhealthy condition in a country in which foreign policy has to be endorsed by the people if it is to be pursued. And it makes it much more difficult for any president to pursue an intelligent policy that does justice to the complexity of the world.



    Link (none / 0) (#9)
    by SOS on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 08:59:46 PM EST
    SO? What does Zbig know (none / 0) (#10)
    by observed on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:00:42 PM EST
    about DWTS, TOp Chef, or Real Housewives?

    Parent
    True or False (none / 0) (#12)
    by SOS on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:03:04 PM EST
    "He surrendered himself to police, you make it sound like he was chased down and caught."

    "They smoked him out of his hole, he came running out, they arrested him."

    "It's not illegal to shout "Fire!" in a theater when the theater really is on fire."

    "Anybody who puts some effort into figuring out what is going on was not "shocked" by the things wikileaks released."


    Parent

    what are you getting at? (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by observed on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:08:16 PM EST
    James Napoli . . Satirist (none / 0) (#14)
    by SOS on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:05:25 PM EST
    "Newly-uncovered information from WikiLeaks seems to provide irrefutable proof of what many have long suspected: that nobody in the U.S. government gives two royal craps about anyone."

    Isn't it settled law that the recipient of (none / 0) (#19)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 09:51:04 PM EST
    stolen documents who then publishes those documents is not guilty of a crime?

    Maybe it's that a person that buys and/or receives stolen property without knowing it was stolen...

    Brings up a good constitutional question: Does the government constitute a person in this particular case?

    Next question-- are there any whistleblower laws that might apply?

    Final question: would Mr. Assange be charged in civilian or criminal court, or by tribunal? That is, given that there is a stake through the heart, figuratively, of the constitution. I hope there isn't. I fear we'll soon see charges.

    He isn't a U.S. citizen, (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:49:11 AM EST
    did nothing within the borders of the United States, and we don't belong to the world court, I can't figure out how the U.S. has any possible authority at all over Assange to imagine charging him with anything.

    Parent
    That's (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:48:51 PM EST
    what I always said about Manuel Noriega. What I thought didn't help him much.

    Parent
    See (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:49:31 PM EST
    Gitmo detainees.

    Parent
    What crime? (none / 0) (#22)
    by waldenpond on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 10:14:40 PM EST
    I can't conceive a crime that has been committed.  I understand, that in this new world order, insulting the US is terrorism (US has seized journalists in other countries) but under US law he hasn't done anything illegal.  Publishing is not a crime.  They will have to go after him under terrorism statutes as he hasn't broken any laws.

    With the recent publishing, WL is actually a consolidator of what others have published.  WL has published the work (edited cables) of the NYT, Guardian, Der Spiegel etc.  I guess they could try to get one of these large news agencies to shut down the little guy for enfringement?

    Parent

    Settled? In something with this many variables? (none / 0) (#28)
    by EL seattle on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 10:47:05 PM EST
    I doubt if anything is ever completely 'settled' in this sort of brouhaha.

    Consider what Jim McDermott went through in a not-completely-dissimilar situation, and multiply it by a few thousand.  Any possible potential breaches of privacy or security could lead to some sort of legal action by someone, I'd guess.

    If they're smart, the WikiLeaks folks are staying up extra late at night checking and double-checking and redacting info from whatever memos they plan to release next.

    Parent

    In the end, McD was ruled liable ONLY ... (none / 0) (#153)
    by RonK Seattle on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:05:43 PM EST
    ... because of his "special duty" - not as a Member of Congress, not even as a Member of the Ethics Committee, but as Ranking Member of the committee.

    NYT's liability was rejected in earlier stages of the proceedings (which is how they narrowed the issue sufficiently to peel off the media amici, make McDermott pay, and make the issue so pinpoint narrow and extraordinary that SCOTUS denied cert on the final appeal).

    Parent

    Different Topic - anybody catch the Obama presser? (none / 0) (#24)
    by smott on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 10:18:04 PM EST
    Thread here....
    http://www.americablog.com/2010/12/obama-press-conference-open-thread.html

    Maybe this is really a seismic shift now. Criticizing him is not just for the DFHs anymore ....

    When The Great Cheetoh has posts up about primary-ing him in 2012, well, that's like losing Cronkite.

    Obama was visibly angry (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by byteb on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 10:36:42 PM EST
    today at the press conference and dressed down....liberals for not appreciating what he's accomplished and for being sanctimonious purists.
    Yikes.

    Parent
    "sanctimonious purists" (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by nycstray on Tue Dec 07, 2010 at 10:59:21 PM EST
    Obama did say he was going to show he wasn't weak. Nice to see him standing strong with the Repubs . . . .

    I think he also said they didn't understand the big picture? Methinks some of the folks on the left have been dealing with the "big picture" much longer than he has . . . .

    Parent

    It was painful to watch that presser (none / 0) (#33)
    by shoephone on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:01:51 AM EST
    and see the soon-to-be former president in the throes of a meltdown. I could almost feel his hypervenilated breathing in my own lungs. Even some of the the reporters were treating him with contempt. It was a sad spectacle of failure.

    Later in the day, I heard my rep, McDermott, telling NPR how Obama has blown the best opportunity he's had to get rid of the Bush tax cuts for the rich, and how he (McD) is NOT going to vote the deal when it comes back to the House.

    Parent

    In regards to MADD, (none / 0) (#32)
    by Makarov on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:56:52 AM EST
    they've been after the first time offender interlock for about 10 years at the state level. I don't believe it's gotten much traction. If there is one state that his this now, I'm not aware of it.

    The problem with interlocks is they are easily defeated. Someone who wants to drink and drive is going to drink and drive. Faced with an interlock they will:

    1. Get someone else to blow in it
    2. Drive a different family vehicle
    3. etc...

    The only group, other than MADD, in favor of interlocks for first time offenders is manufacturers of interlocks.

    I don't envision the current SCOTUS (none / 0) (#35)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:15:43 AM EST
    determining the Commerce Clause extends to criminal penalties for DUI, a state crime.  

    Parent
    I don't think they have to (none / 0) (#37)
    by Rojas on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 06:18:31 AM EST
    The last big push down from the feds that I recall on these issues came with withholding of transportation funds to states that did not adopt the federal mandate for lowered BAC and minimum punishment levels.

    Parent
    i presume AG Holder (none / 0) (#39)
    by cpinva on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 07:40:39 AM EST
    will be issuing warrants for every newspaper in the world, charging them with receiving stolen goods? unless, of course, there is a special law, that only applies to mr. assange?

    since WL has only published less than 1,000 of the cables itself, the rest have been published by mainstream news organizations, presumably making them all culpable as well. i await the mass indictments, or not.

    Terrible flooding and landslides (none / 0) (#46)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 08:57:38 AM EST
    in Colombia. La nin~a years have more rain than usual there. link

    Oh, (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:02:30 AM EST
    I wish BTD wasn't doing court all this week. I can only imagine what kind of witty statements he could come up with for what Obama said yesterday...

    Me too (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:14:07 AM EST
    It was strange without him on the net after the news conference.  Not a lot of original thought out there for a while, but I just saw the clips from Olberman and Maddow and holy phuck, they both applied some lone wolf originality :)  This President is such a coward though, and people keep saying he is still intelligent but how can you really be "that" intelligent and be the worst negotiator evah in charge of the global superpower.  He is pathetic.  I watched Sherrod Brown too discuss how the Republicans would never leave on Christmas recess without tending to unemployment and extending it and that nobody is being held hostage in any serious way if you stand up to them and have stand off.  He said that if the President hit Air Force One and went to some of the states that have the worst unemployment and began the discussions there about the Republicans holding us all hostage that we would have Republican pols shaking in their boots.  Is it possible that this President is just flat out lazy and doesn't want to do any real work, he wants cool state dinners and trips around the world celebrating how great he is and he doesn't want to have to break a sweat outside of a good basketball game?

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:48:42 AM EST
    I think that Obama wanted to Be President but not actually do the job of President. Once he got elected in 2008 he had already reached his goal. He doesn't have a policy compass nor even understand what needs to be done it seems.

    And the creative class who were his biggest supporters have completely enabled his behavior. In a way I understand why he was so testy. When you're constantly treated like a "Messiah" and then the day comes that you aren't, you are going to wonder "Why"? The truth of the matter is that the creative class failed to see who Obama really is therefore they are disappointed. Those of us who saw him for what he is, well, it's just really a yawner except for the fact that he's dragging the rest of us down with him.

    Parent

    Oh the Enablers (none / 0) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:56:36 AM EST
    As my father used to say, "God save me from the do gooders!"  You know what I had to do, yup, I had to go read the Booman after all the blasting this morning.  Booman has to be mainlining Mimosas while erotically scratching himself in order to come up with that work of fiction today :)

    Parent
    Well, I think Shrub (none / 0) (#71)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:17:53 AM EST
    and Reagan wanted to be president but not actually do all the hard work, but O doesn't strike me as that lazy, though I do think he wants to avoid direct conflict and bloody streetfighting with the opposition party that is probably necessary with the modern GOP.

    He seems more like the type who succeeded in the past -- HLS, 2004 convention, 2008 election -- with his post-partisan unity branding, and assumed he would continue to have rather easy success in the WH with the same approach.  Except that he didn't calculate how much the oppo in Congress would demand in the negotiating, nor especially how much his own base would react adversely to the awful, mostly one-sided deals struck.

    As for the creative class enablers, I've actually been surprised at how many have stepped back from the O worship in the past year and taken a more skeptical attitude.  Of course, as with Nixon and Shrub and LBJ, there will always be a certain number of true-believing holdouts to the bitter end who will never be swayed by reason and facts.

    Parent

    We keep looking, (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by NYShooter on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:02:30 AM EST
    and speculating, about what Obama wants, does he have a hidden agenda, what are his core principals, or even who he is. I know we Americans are conspiracy nuts, but more often than not the answers are quite simple.

    Remember during the campaign the big question was: "experience," or "vision?" Well, I don't care who you are: a baseball player, a pilot, a doctor, lawyer, or forklift operator. A rookie is a rookie, and there is no substitute for experience. Add to "no experience," idol worship  and hero complex, and you've got a disaster staring you in the face.

    In my business career I've seen it a thousand times. A promising young hot shot confronts a difficult situation for the first time. Things don't go right, people don't do what they're supposed to do, communication breaks down, and panic sets in. What does the young punk do? He throws a tantrum, screams at everybody, "you're all idiots!" "Why can't you see what I see; why can't you do what you're told?

    And, instead of realizing he's got a lot to learn, the young snot nose goes home and kicks the dog.

    All 300,000,000 of us.


    Parent

    I think we have to stop wasting time (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:48:01 AM EST
    trying to figure out Obama, decide what it is we want, and figure out how to get it; I'm not at all optimistic that we can get what we want, because I think the Democrats in Congress are pretty much just wallowing in dysfunction and firmly in the craven grasp of the corporate sector.  

    I'm also extremely annoyed at the prevalence of polls that are making light of the discontent with Obama's performance, tactics and commitment to the Democratic platform, and I'm further ticked off by the administration's conclusion that it doesn't matter if any Democrats are unhappy as long as the WH can find enough independents and Republicans to bolster his approval and assure him that he is on the right track.

    Which pretty much leads back to the conclusion that Obama feels no need to commit to any policy or ideology as long as he can find or cobble together a majority somewhere - even if that means, as it seems to, that we end up with really crappy policy that causes more harm than good.

    I hate the feeling that we are just plain stuck, with no viable options, no avenue of escape from this hell; for all of Obama's talk about the GOP holding us hostage to their demands, I feel more like we are being held hostage by a president who is utterly empty at his core.  I wish I had some brilliant solution - I don't - I'd suggest we need to go around him, but then how do we deal with the Congress?  How do we go around them?  Focus on the state level, perhaps?

    I have no idea.  Gonna be a loooong couple of years.


    Parent

    More harm than good (none / 0) (#108)
    by waldenpond on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:02:49 PM EST
    I think it's obvious at this point Obama does not care about progressive governance.  If he is willing to destroy the tax structure that attempts to maintain some equality in economic power and keep the repression of an oligarchy tamped down, THE main point of having a democratic platform, he is willing to demand the 95% of the US live a lower standard of living so the wealthy can have more.

    Shorter: Obama doesn't care about having a democratic society.

    I need to finish reading an article on the collapse of the US and the new data that the unraveling is happening faster than projected.  Obama's philosophy is sure a push on the downhill side.

    Parent

    It's a completely normal (none / 0) (#112)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:25:52 PM EST
    human response to try to figger out why so many people appear to have misread a president's basic political being.  

    I wouldn't sweat all the speculative chatter about who he really is, and in any case, it's better to at least try to have a little clearer idea of where we've been before we can intelligently plan anything for the future.

    I also wouldn't worry about polling right now -- it's always fickle, and not many polls are designed to show the depth of feeling or approval.  At this time in his first full term and over the next year or so until Tet, LBJ's approval/re-elect numbers tended to be either artificially high or somewhat too low, depending on things big and ridiculously small.  But a little more than a year after his own very disastrous midterms, and even after some decent overall polling numbers for a while, he was finished as a candidate when Tet happened.

    O I suspect is also about one more major disappointing cave or capitulation away from putting his re-elect in major jeopardy and since I believe he's like most incumbents and wants a 2d term, I think eventually he's going to need to start listening to the people who put him in office who should continue to call him out, loudly, when he insists on trying to govern like Ike or Reagan.  

    Parent

    Indie strategy (none / 0) (#139)
    by waldenpond on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:34:13 PM EST
    This is actually the strategy the WH is leaking... the intent is to pretend there are extremists on both ends and the Pres will be the only grown up in the room.  Indies and Reaganites will flock to him and get him re-elected.  The strategy is to burn the left to the ground.

    Parent
    O is trying to (none / 0) (#166)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:25:21 PM EST
    govern like the nonconfrontational, non-bold, bipartisan Ike, but he delivers economic programs more like Reagan and W, and his war policy in one quagmire area has some similarities to LBJ.  

    And in being perceived by many at the moment as weak and ineffective with his opponents and increasingly unpopular with the liberal wing of his party, he could end up like Carter.

    Well, good luck with that strategy for re-elect.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#89)
    by sj on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:03:32 AM EST
    O has always struck me as extremely lazy.  During the campaign, I looked in vain for accomplishments.  Found none.  Found out that he couldn't even be bothered to hold a subcommittee meeting when he was chair.

    (gotta love Biden's defense in the article.  Basically "we already talked about that, with the Full Committee".  that is, when Obama had no say in it).

    Anyway, the difference between his work ethic and that of ... um... his primary competitor... was enormous.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:08:03 AM EST
    I certainly don't see Obama working that hard either unfortunately. He seems to whine as much as W. did. People are sick of the whining. They want jobs etc.

    Parent
    Lazy is when, e.g., (none / 0) (#97)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:35:05 AM EST
    you give a large chunk of the heavy lifting of policy formation and implementation to others -- the VP or SoS or DCI.  

    Reagan was famous for letting his aides do most serious detailed work in both FP and DP.  He got one-page briefings on big topics or a half-hour explanatory video on same prepared by Deaver.  Ike, not quite as lazy but more bothered by having to do anything beyond balancing the budget, left most of his FP formulation and implementation to his SoS and the CIA -- with unfortunate results.  Shrub gave enormous power to Cheney in FP generally and energy policy, and to Rummy in Iraq.

    I don't see O as remotely in these lazy categories, except for what we might call lazy thinking about the nature of the GOP oppo and some lazy thinking about correcting the economy.

    Defensive at times, yes.  Willing to fight only with his own party's liberal base and never with the real Repub opposition, yes.  But there we're talking not laziness but insecurity and aversion to taking on the real problem, the bullies that run the opposition party.

    Parent

    Oh. By that definition (none / 0) (#102)
    by sj on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:46:55 AM EST
    he's still lazy.  Recall his debate performances.  Basically "what Hillary said".

    But that's just my perception.  And anyway my definition of "workhorse" and "lazy" is a bit different than yours.  

    My definition is geared more toward work ethic in general.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#105)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:50:19 AM EST
    then Obama is certainly lazy if that's your description. He seems to hand off everything to somebody else.

    Parent
    I think some of you (none / 0) (#110)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:09:55 PM EST
    are vastly overestimating the importance of "working hard" as president.

    Jimmy Carter famously was a hard worker, long hours, very detail oriented, didn't like to delegate very much.  Not an effective successful president though.  

    As with O, laziness is not the problem.  Do you think things would be better right now if O would just stop taking vacations and work an extra 2-3 hours late into the night?  I don't think that's at the heart of the problem.

    Besides not being the issue, accusing this particular president of being "lazy" carries with it some unfortunate undertones.  Unless someone can show there's some real, relevant there there on laziness, I prefer to just avoid that dicey line of inquiry.

    Parent

    How about (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by nycstray on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:35:38 PM EST
    lack of interest in the hands on process of getting the job done? Ya know, the actual "work" part ;)

    He reminds me of several past bosses. They like the position, but lack the hands on knowledge of the day to day process of what gets the job done. Usually moved up to fast and never really had an interest in actually working their way up. Too messy, takes too long, etc. They also were extremely impressed with themselves/their so called skills/talent/intellect.

    Parent

    nyc, you may be right, (none / 0) (#171)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:33:38 PM EST
    and O is certainly one of the most ambitious Dem pols to seek that office I can recall, given his rather thin prior resume.  

    No question for me that he moved up too quickly and that once there, he finds himself feeling an inner conflict -- he does think rather a little too highly of himself, more than is warranted by the objective evidence, and yet also might by now be getting an uneasy feeling that he's a little in over his head.

    But these are matters of excessive ambition and ego, and competence, and not so much work ethic.  

    Parent

    You know what? (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:44:09 PM EST
    It's not the hours that he spends so much as the fact that he really doesn't seem to want to be bothered with policy is what makes him a poor president. I was using your standard for laziness that when saying he was lazy. I don't really see much of a work ethic from him but before you start playing the r card on me, I didn't see much of a work ethic from W. either. People that are seen as delegating everything are viewed as not having much of a work ethic because it looks like they don't want to do the work so they hand it off to somebody else and I say this as someone who's had bosses who delegated work because they didn't want to do the work themselves.

    A work ethic is really defined at least to me by the desire to do the job and not constantly relying on somebody else to do the heavy lifting.
    Actually the vacations are PR disaster more than anything else. When we have high unemployment and people seem him romping in the tropics it certainly doesn't endear him to people who can't even find a job or pay the mortgage or the rent much less even think about a vacation.

    Parent

    Hey, you notice I really (none / 0) (#177)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:41:22 PM EST
    didn't play the r card on anyone, just suggested that that particular line of description needs to be backed carefully by actual relevant evidence to substantiate it.

    But I don't see any evidence that he's unduly delegating or failing to exert sufficient effort in his overall job duties (again, it's partly also relative to some very lazy predecessors).  It's far too complicated a modern presidency for one person to do it all, and I don't think it's smart either for a prez (Carter, e.g.) to try to take on too much by himself.  

    It's not the working enough part or the delegating too much as it's doing it wrong, probably because he starts with a faulty foundation of limited understanding of the oppo, a lack of a deep understanding of economics, a misreading of the nature of re-election politics, to go with a conflict-averse olive-branch type of personality.

    Parent

    Okay. (none / 0) (#184)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:49:19 PM EST
    I apologize if I offended you then.

    You don't remember HCR where he delegated the whole process off to Max Baucus? Or apparently the recent deal where he delegated it off to the GOP?

    You know the white house can write a legislative proposal and then have the house vote on it. Right? They don't seem to be doing any of this.

    I do agree with your last sentence. For someone who apparently claims to want to be reelected he has zero understanding of what you need to do to get there it seems. Of course, the only time that he ran for reelection was when he was in the Il State Senate and I'm assuming he ran unopposed.

    Parent

    unfortunate undertones? (none / 0) (#203)
    by sj on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 03:38:45 PM EST
    I'm not sure what you mean when you say that

    accusing this particular president of being "lazy" carries with it some unfortunate undertones.

    Why exactly?  Because he's part African American?  Does that mean we can only call white people lazy?  I mean I did.  I thought GWB was lazy.  So what's your alternative descriptor for O?

    Anyway I've used the word "lazy" so many times in this comment it's making me crazy.

    Parent

    I don't think (none / 0) (#116)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:43:21 PM EST
    Shrub actually envisioned being president - Jeb was the one being groomed for the job, but because of when he was elected governor, it wouldn't have worked out.  

    I think GWB was the most surprised person on January 20, 2001.

    Parent

    Just going by (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:51:12 PM EST
    the looks on people's faces, I'd say the most shocked (other than myself) was George Herbert Walker Bush

    Parent
    Fair point. (none / 0) (#122)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:59:08 PM EST
    I think that by the time (none / 0) (#181)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:43:30 PM EST
    of W's re-elect in 1998, and when Karl sat him down and explained the political lay of the land ahead, then Junior got it full well into his head that it might not be such a bad idea bein' presnut and all.

    Just so long as his help did most of the heavy lifting.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#182)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:47:48 PM EST
    Why on earth would you have help if they couldn't do the heavy lifting?  ;)

    Parent
    Well needed heartwarming break (none / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:09:29 AM EST
    A Very Glee Christmas. Hope you all watched it or taped it or can hulu it or whatever. Very well done.

    Is the gay duet a first for TV? I do not remember seeing anything like it. Perfect song - 'Baby It's Cold Outside' excellently performed by Chris Colfer and...I have to look up his name...

    I hate Glee (none / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:16:33 AM EST
    I hated glee club.....expressing glee and breaking out into song simply for the sake of glee :)  My Aunt loves it though.  She lived glee filled before there was a Glee and she could be a gleek :)

    Parent
    I admit it is not for everyone! (none / 0) (#53)
    by ruffian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:25:52 AM EST
    I love it however! Pure entertainment.

    Parent
    It makes my Aunt positively insanely happy :) (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:39:42 AM EST
    Same for my 36 yr.-old niece. And (none / 0) (#100)
    by oculus on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:43:26 AM EST
    it was considered pretty geeky to be in glee club in my high school.  What happened?  

    Parent
    Jokes on us (none / 0) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:17:53 PM EST
    Glee (none / 0) (#174)
    by lilburro on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:38:48 PM EST
    has been driving me nuts this season.  Disjointed, sappy plots, too many beefcake characters (c'mon, this is not True Blood), too many guest stars...I was about to give up on Glee until this episode which brought me back around again.  But I'm still almost ready.  And the duet between Colfer and Darren Criss was really, really cool.  Go Glee.

    Parent
    Check out the bruises... (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:21:33 AM EST
    the NYPD allegedly gave this poor lady over some dog sh*t...literally.

    She was (none / 0) (#80)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:31:49 AM EST
    charged with resisting arrest and disorderly conduct.

    Resisting arrest and disorderly conduct? Those actions were all after they put her in handcuffs. She wasn't charged with littering or anything related to her dog. Besides, you know the cops are going to tack those two charges onto whoever they arrest for no reason. BS

    Nothing will happen as usual.

    Parent

    Back in the day... (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:46:08 AM EST
    there was at least some chivalry in regards to police brutality...only men would get the business like that for no good reason...now not even women, children, or the elderly are safe.

    Or more specifically, only minority and undesirable men got the business like that back in the day...this is not the equality under the law I had in mind.

    Parent

    What happened to (none / 0) (#98)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:38:41 AM EST
    Innocent until proven guilty?

    Parent
    Hey... (none / 0) (#104)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:50:04 AM EST
    I said alleged!  Thats pretty good for me:)

    As someone who has been on the receiving end of Guiliani Time, her story is most credible to this observer...I'd say time will tell but since the alleged perps are cops, time likely won't tell...settle and sweep under the rug is my prediction.  Cops do the crime, taxpayers do the time.

    Parent

    Just (none / 0) (#107)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:02:04 PM EST
    Trying to keep you honest!  :)

    Parent
    More NYPD Dirty... (none / 0) (#115)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:35:39 PM EST
    those this really is the fault of congress...5 young entrepenuers working their way through uber-expensive Columbia Univ. get the chains under "Operation Ivy League".  This are not the Ivy Leaguers that are our problem, its the graduates on the hill!

    Ray Kelly is such a d*ck too..."this is no way to work your way through college."  Got a better idea smart guy?  McDonald's ain't gonna cut it bro, and we're not exactly flush with jobs right now.

    Next time kids, go do some dishonest griftin' work on Wall St., the law loves that mess...honest work is not valued round here.

    Parent

    I like that we all basically ignored Obama (none / 0) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:31:10 AM EST
    yesterday.  but here the thing that troubles me.  my coffee barista, who I see as a barometer of many blue collar type dems, was defending him this morning.

    Wouldn't take that (none / 0) (#60)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:46:55 AM EST
    one person as reflective of too many blue-collar Dems right now, who are suffering from no jobs or precariously-held jobs, or bare subsistence jobs, and who are running out of patience with this guy.

    My sense is that whether he knows it or not, O is slowly losing his base voters, the ones who tend to be the key to whether an incumbent gets re-elected or even re-nominated.  LBJ, Carter, Poppy, all lost significant base backing because of their stubborn stupidity, ineffectiveness, and in the latter case callous negligence of domestic problems.

    I'm starting to think that perhaps with one more O capitulation on a major matter to Repubs similar to yesterday, he might be in serious jeopardy of being another failed one-termer.

    Parent

    We all would have liked... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:00:58 AM EST
    a greater contribution from the top 1% or 5% to pay for their protection racket services...but as far as "betrayals" go, this is nuthin' compared to the Gitmo sell-out, imo...it's only money after all.  

    I'm not gonna get worked up about taxes staying the same for everybody next year...if this is what it takes to keep all the poor slobs paychecks from being light Jan. 2011, so be it...that woulda been a disaster for those barely squeaking by...or the disaster of letting unemployment expire.

    We will never know if Obama coulda fought/tried harder...or what he even really wanted...but we can live with this compromise better than we could have a long stalemate...which would only hurt the little guy even more.

    Parent

    pretty much what Ron (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:08:40 AM EST
    said.  
    here my problem.  I dont disagree with most of that.  but it was the whiney "I did everything I said I would do" part that scalded me.
    "I have done or tried to do everything I said I would do".

    hey you know what.  sitting on your butt in your office and saying a couple of times "this is what I would like" and never engaging the people or the congress to actually get it is not trying.

    sorry.


    Parent

    He's a politician man... (none / 0) (#73)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:20:30 AM EST
    hence he lies and misleads for a living.

    I mean we all should know by now we got sold a bill of goods during the campaign...where's that scalpel for the bloated budget he kept waxin' about on the trail? On backorder?

    Parent

    ummm.... Ron? (none / 0) (#91)
    by sj on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:09:56 AM EST
    the barista (none / 0) (#93)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:16:51 AM EST
    referred to in the original comment

    Parent
    Ah. (none / 0) (#96)
    by sj on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:25:10 AM EST
    The confusion caused by searching for comments with the [new] tag.

    Parent
    I think the 2012 election (none / 0) (#72)
    by ruffian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:18:46 AM EST
    will be a real test of the theory that Obama espouses - that more people want him to be the guy in the middle than want him to be the hero of the Dem base.

    We'll see what happens.

    Parent

    I dunno (none / 0) (#74)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:20:34 AM EST
    about more or less - it's more like "enough"

    I think he thinks that he is more likely to win the hero people anyway.  He might be right.

    Parent

    He might be right. (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:25:11 AM EST
    I did not think so until talking to Ron this morning.
    now I dunno.


    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#84)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:43:18 AM EST
    to an extent, republicans overplayed their hand with this.  I mean the CNN healine that was up for days about republicans throwing a "tantrum" kind of says it all.

    So in the midst of that kind of an atmosphere, I could see Obama winning the middle on the "framing" of this issue.

    That being said, that is a political win 2 years away from an election.  By the time a vote comes, "framing" on this issue really won't matter.

    Parent

    LBJ, Carter, Poppy (none / 0) (#76)
    by brodie on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:24:00 AM EST
    -- all 3 incumbents lost significant support from their base and so became one-termers.

    I just don't see how O can expect to repeat unless he shores up support with the people who can more reliably be counted on to vote Dem.  

    O is supposed to be the guy who reads and understands modern US political history.  If so, I wonder how else he interprets the election outcomes of 1968, 1980 and 1992 for the incumbent.

    Parent

    Secret GOP plan (none / 0) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 09:57:29 AM EST
    Push states to declare bankruptcy and smash unions

    Congressional Republicans appear to be quietly but methodically executing a plan that would a) avoid a federal bailout of spendthrift states and b) cripple public employee unions by pushing cash-strapped states such as California and Illinois to declare bankruptcy. This may be the biggest political battle in Washington, my Capitol Hill sources tell me, of 2011.


    That's not new (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by waldenpond on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:32:18 AM EST
    I keep saying the goal is to make the economy so bad, they collapse wages.

    Only difference, I don't believe it's the Republicans.... it's the money party/the oligarchy.  There are probable a few Repubs repulsed by what the govt is doing (but willing to let it happen rather than face a tea-bagger) and there are many 'Dems' that are pushing it.  After all, many are in the oligarchy if not merely owned by them.

    Parent

    Well, (none / 0) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:20:49 AM EST
    the morons are going to bankrupt the red states too like GA. We're already sinking and everybody that can be laid off has been. Of course, those GOP legislators aren't about to cut their pay.

    Parent
    Not for nothing... (none / 0) (#126)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:13:39 PM EST
    from the impression I get of NY's and CA's financial situation, a push won't be needed to go bankrupt, we're basically there.

    Though rather than let state pensioners get the shaft, maybe NY and CA would be better off seceeding from the union and keeping all the money they send to Washington to honor their commitments to our state pensioners.

    We could make a killing off the other 48 with tariffs to use the Wall St. casino and enjoy Hollywood entertainment:)  

    Parent

    Or perhaps they should just treat (none / 0) (#127)
    by nycstray on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:15:34 PM EST
    NY and CA to a Wall St style bailout. We're too big to fail!

    Parent
    That would go over real big... (none / 0) (#133)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:26:40 PM EST
    with the Tea Partiers and Red Staters...lol.

    Better figure something out soon, NYC is shaking down old ladies for c-notes for throwing garbage in the...garbage can?  Huh?

    Parent

    WTH? (none / 0) (#142)
    by waldenpond on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:37:33 PM EST
    ok, you see wrappers, cups, newspapers blowing down the street.... if that isn't litter, what is?

    Parent
    Honestly waldenpond... (none / 0) (#158)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:12:39 PM EST
    I think we the people are the litter, the rubbish, the refuse...or at least that's how our "public servants" treat us.

    Parent
    One more place in the world (none / 0) (#70)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:16:38 AM EST
    Dick Cheney can't go.  Not that I think he was planning on heading to Nigeria any time soon.  Hope more places follow here and VT soon :)

    Although -

    "After the country's high court sets a trial date, authorities could pursue extradition."

    Somehow I doubt they will be successfull.

    "Nigerian investigators say they have filed charges against former U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney and others connected to the energy services company Halliburton, accusing them of paying bribes to secure a lucrative natural gas project in the 1990s."

    Link

    I wonder if they have some kind of a (none / 0) (#78)
    by ruffian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:27:28 AM EST
    trial in absentia process. I would love to at least get his alleged crimes exposed in great detail.

    Parent
    its that time of year again (none / 0) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 10:47:18 AM EST
    one of these people is me.  I will never say which one.  
    me and my coworkers getting down as elves produced my one of our coworkers with to much time on his hands

    I don't think... (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:32:42 PM EST
    you have to say which one...I think I got ya pegged old man.

    Parent
    uh oh (none / 0) (#140)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:34:45 PM EST
    Your identity is safe with me... (none / 0) (#154)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:06:36 PM EST
    I hope mine will be safe with Oculus come next week:)

    Parent
    Reid adds on line gaming to tax bill (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 11:58:50 AM EST
    Looks like Reid is going to try and legalize on line poker in the tax bill.

    Never thought I would say this about Surrender Harry but good for him.

    I've already called both my Senators and told them to support it.

    Link

    Surprising... (none / 0) (#130)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:22:42 PM EST
    I would think big Reid donors like MGM would be against legal internet poker (competition to their b&m rooms)..I guess they plan on getting in the business, if legalized.

    Whatever the reason, I concur as well...it's the right thing to do.

    Parent

    There's probably more money in legalizing (none / 0) (#161)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:15:01 PM EST
    it and taxing it. Although I don't know the specifics of the bill.

    Parent
    Gitmo (none / 0) (#111)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:10:45 PM EST
    Not closing anytime soon, it looks like.

    Oh yeah - KSM will not be transferred to the US for trial, as the bill prohibits money to be used to transfer detainees or to buy an existing US prison -the article also says the bill specifically forbids transferring KSM here, as well.

    This year's omnibus spending bill refuses to close the prison at Guantanamo Bay and would block the transfer of any suspected terrorist detainees to the United States in what appears to be the final blow for President Obama's campaign pledge to shutter the facility.

    The massive spending bill Democrats released early Wednesday morning would prohibit the Obama administration from spending any money either to transfer detainees to the United States or to buy a replacement prison in the United States, as Mr. Obama had planned.

    Prohibiting spending effectively stops the administration from acting over the next year, and with Republicans about to take control of the House in January, his chances are virtually zero that Congress will relent any time before the president stands for re-election in 2012.

    The bill, which will be voted on over the next week or so, explicitly prohibits the transfer of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

    "None of the funds provided to the Department of Justice in this or any prior Act shall be available for the acquisition of any facility that is to be used wholly or in part for the incarceration or detention of any individual detained at Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as of June 24, 2009," the bill says.



    I like how this guy thinks (none / 0) (#113)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:32:23 PM EST
    A pragmatic and rational essay, IMO, on the Wikileaks controversy:

    Like a lot of people, I am conflicted about Wikileaks.

    Citizens of a functioning democracy must be able to know what the state is saying and doing in our name, to engage in what Pierre Rosanvallon calls "counter-democracy", the democracy of citizens distrusting rather than legitimizing the actions of the state. Wikileaks plainly improves those abilities.

    On the other hand, human systems can't stand pure transparency. For negotiation to work, people's stated positions have to change, but change is seen, almost universally, as weakness. People trying to come to consensus must be able to privately voice opinions they would publicly abjure, and may later abandon. Wikileaks plainly damages those abilities. (If Aaron Bady's analysis is correct, it is the damage and not the oversight that Wikileaks is designed to create.*)

    And so we have a tension between two requirements for democratic statecraft, one that can't be resolved, but can be brought to an acceptable equilibrium. Indeed, like the virtues of equality vs. liberty, or popular will vs. fundamental rights, it has to be brought into such an equilibrium for democratic statecraft not to be wrecked either by too much secrecy or too much transparency.

    As Tom Slee puts it, "Your answer to `what data should the government make public?' depends not so much on what you think about data, but what you think about the government." My personal view is that there is too much secrecy in the current system, and that a corrective towards transparency is a good idea. I don't, however, believe in total transparency, and even more importantly, I don't think that independent actors who are subject to no checks or balances is a good idea in the long haul.



    tragedy comes in threes (none / 0) (#123)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 12:59:35 PM EST
    if this was not so sick and pathetic it would be funny:

    Christine O'Donnell on Tuesday compared the "tragedy" of extending unemployment benefits to Pearl Harbor and the death of Elizabeth Edwards.

    "Tragedy comes in threes," O'Donnell said. "Pearl Harbor, Elizabeth Edwards's passing and Barack Obama's announcement of extending the tax cuts, which is good, but also extending the unemployment benefits."



    Tragedy (5.00 / 3) (#124)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:06:11 PM EST
    Is the fact that the media still give this woman air time and space.

    Parent
    Christine, Pearl Harbor was 70 years ago (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by ruffian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:48:07 PM EST
    Hardly still counts as a tragedy in the 'goes in 3s' game. By those standards you could count anything.

    god, why am I arguing with her?

    Parent

    Christine O'Donnell, Sarah Palin, and ...? (none / 0) (#155)
    by RonK Seattle on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:07:39 PM EST
    Obama :) (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:16:03 PM EST
    DADT (none / 0) (#125)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:13:31 PM EST
    vote happening tonight?

    I read (none / 0) (#132)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:25:46 PM EST
    they are supposed to be voting on cloture for the DREAM act at 4pm.

    Parent
    Any republican (none / 0) (#156)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:09:22 PM EST
    possibilities other than Collins and Brown?

    Parent
    For (none / 0) (#160)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:13:42 PM EST
    DADT not the Dream Act. Not sure the Dream Act has the potential votes

    Parent
    Received this from SDLN in my email (none / 0) (#165)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:24:22 PM EST
    From SDLN:

    ALERT: The cloture vote on the National Defense Authorization Act - which includes the repeal of `Don't Ask' - is likely to happen this evening if unrelated cloture votes earlier in the day fail and open up time on the Senate floor.

    REID ON THE SENATE FLOOR MOMENTS AGO: "And I'm likely going to move to my motion to reconsider on the Defense Authorization Act this evening. Allowing, as I will indicate at that time, time for amendments to that piece of legislation."

    SLDN ON THE RECORD STATEMENT: "We expect Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid will try again today to take up the defense bill that includes repeal.  Reid is actively reaching out to his Republican colleagues to reach an agreement on how to proceed.  We also know from Hill sources the President is actively working today's vote with key Republican senators.  Today the Senate has an opportunity to make the nation's defense funding and our service members a higher priority than tax cuts for millionaires," said Aubrey Sarvis, U.S. Army veteran and executive director for Servicemembers Legal Defense Network.

    THE ADVOCATE'S KERRY ELEVELD OVERNIGHT:
    -- "Senate majority leader Harry Reid may bring to a vote on Wednesday the National Defense Authorization Act with "don't ask, don't tell" repeal attached, according to a Senate Democratic aide.
    --"Democrats might make use of a narrow window of down time if the four bills scheduled for a vote Wednesday fail to garner the 60 votes necessary to proceed to debate. Those bills include a firefighters collective bargaining bill, the DREAM Act, a 9/11 firefighters health compensation measure, and a measure extending a one-time $250 payment to senior citizens. If all fail, the NDAA could be brought to a vote by sometime Wednesday afternoon."  http://bit.ly/dXKY56

    WE NOW HAVE PRYOR (via AmericaBlog.com): "It is a major development. The Senate could take a vote on the Defense bill today. In September, Senator Pryor (D-AR) voted on the wrong side.  Just last week, he told an Arkansas newspaper that he would not vote for any bill that repealed Don't Ask, Don't Tell (while also noting his belief that being gay is a sin.) But, he's on board with DADT repeal now." http://bit.ly/fyd4gN

    PRYOR STATEMENT: "On many previous occasions, I have said that I would oppose repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell until I had heard from our servicemen and women regarding this policy. I have now carefully reviewed all of the findings, reports, and testimony from our armed forces on this matter and I accept the Pentagon's recommendations to repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I also accept the Secretary of Defense and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs' commitment that this policy can be implemented in a manner that does not harm our military's readiness, recruitment, or retention. We have the strongest military in the world and we will continue to do so by ensuring our troops have the resources necessary to carry out their missions. Therefore, I support the 2011 Defense Authorization Act that passed the Senate Armed Services Committee and will support procedural measures to bring it to a vote this year."

    ADVOCATES STILL NEED A COUPLE REPUBLICANS: Who we're watching
    --Susan Collins (R-ME);
    --Olympia Snowe (R-ME);
    --Richard Lugar (R-IN);
    --Judd Gregg (R-NH);
    --Scott Brown (R-MA);
    --George Voinovich (R-OH);
    --Kit Bond (R-MO);
    --Lisa Murkowski (R-AK);
    --Mark Kirk (R-IL);

    LIST OF SERVICE MEMBERS AVAIL FOR INTERVIEWS: http://bit.ly/gfFFJH

    CNN PUSHES BACK ON THE GOP TALKING POINT "WE NEED MORE TIME":
    --(CNN) Anderson Cooper: "That was Jon Kyl. So that's the premise. Too little time. That it just takes too long. It takes two weeks typically. That's what McConnell said. We did some checking, however. Here's the legislative history of last year's defense authorization. Senate Bill 1390, the Senate took it up on July 13th, considered 340 amendments and passed it ten days later. That's actually unusually long. In other years the time frame is even shorter.
    --"According to democratic congressional staffers who crunched the numbers, since 1990 there have only been four other occasions where passing a defense authorization has taken more than a week.
    Congressional scholar Norman Ornstein who's been following the Hill for decades agrees, adding that on occasion such bills have been adopted after just a day or two. So keeping them honest tonight, lawmakers are free to support or oppose as they see fit on the merits of it but to say they don't have enough time to consider it, that doesn't wash."

    TAKING NOTHING FOR GRANTED, THE RALLY FOR REPEAL STILL PLANNED FOR FRIDAY:
    WHAT:  MISSION INCOMPLETE: NO SENATE VACATION UNTIL THE TASK IS FINISHED
    WHERE:  Constitution Ave. and Delaware Ave., NE, Upper Senate Park, North of U.S. Capitol
    WHEN:  Friday, December 10, 2010, 12:00 p.m. ET

    SPREAD THE WORD:
    -- MISSION INCOMPLETE: NO SENATE VACATION UNTIL THE TASK IS FINISHED
    --LINK TO AUTOMATICALLY UPLOAD ON FACEBOOK STATUS: http://on.fb.me/hFCbsP
    --LINK TO AUTOMATICALLY UPLOAD ON TWITTER STATUS: http://bit.ly/hu6Ssh
    --TWITTER HASHTAG: #4REPEAL
    --SHORT LINK FOR YOUR OWN ONLINE POST: http://bit.ly/ebbDoj

    THE MESSAGE:
    --"We call upon the Senate and the President to remain in session and in Washington until the National Defense Authorization Act is passed - which includes the repeal of `Don't Ask.'  The Senate is scheduled to break for holiday vacation; we can't let them leave.  We must show our rage for repeal and insist the Senate stay in Washington until they have finished the job.  We implore all who support repeal to join us outside the Senate this Friday.  As Secretary of Defense  Robert Gates said, `If not now, when?'
    --"More Americans than ever are with us in this moment.  We have the Commander in Chief, the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and a majority of the service chiefs who support repeal.  We know that 92 percent of service members are just fine working with their gay, lesbian and bisexual colleagues, according to the Pentagon report.  Their attitudes mirror those of nearly 80 percent of Americans."

    Sorry - no link, but you can visit SDLN.org for more info

    Parent

    any (none / 0) (#168)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:32:32 PM EST
    bets?

    Parent
    sorry (none / 0) (#170)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:33:12 PM EST
    that sounded more cynical than I meant for it to.

    I actually think it could happen.

    Parent

    I think it passes (none / 0) (#172)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:35:08 PM EST
    There is already one republican who has publicly proclaimed his support (Scott Brown).

    I think that will give cover to one or two other republicans to switch as well.

    All we need is one more.

    Parent

    McCain (none / 0) (#173)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:37:19 PM EST
    will be grumpy.

    and the sky will be blue.


    Parent

    kinda sad (none / 0) (#175)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:39:12 PM EST
    that we take for granted he won't be the "one" vote.

    How the mighty have fallen.

    What a sore loser/sellout/grump.

    Even his bff Joe Lieberman is calling him out.

    Parent

    not sure what the time stamp was on the above (none / 0) (#178)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:41:26 PM EST
    this is from orange from 11am

        In a nutshell, Collins is asking Democratic leaders for unlimited debate on the defense bill. Reid, in turn, is offering Collins a compromise: votes on 10 separate amendments, seven of which would come from Republicans, three of which would come from Democrats.

        Collins has responded that this isn't good enough, and she'll refuse to let the Senate vote up or down on the legislation.



    Parent
    The sky IS blue (none / 0) (#180)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:42:38 PM EST
    here in DC and the sun is out, so maybe that's a good sign?

    Parent
    My newest count (none / 0) (#176)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:40:42 PM EST
    Brown, Collins, Murkowski

    Interesting that many gay right's groups aren't pushing for a DADT vote until after the Bush tax bill is settled. They see them as linked, with a repeal of DADT dependent on the tax bill passing.

    Parent

    that is what I sort of thought (none / 0) (#179)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:42:02 PM EST
    actually.  

    Parent
    msnbc (none / 0) (#183)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:49:07 PM EST
    The fight to repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell is getting a bit nasty between the Senate offices of Majority Leader Harry Reid, Joe Lieberman and Republican Susan Collins, all of whom support ending the ban.
    It's gotten so contentious that Lieberman released a written statement defending Collins against "baseless allegations" from Democratic aides that Collins is blocking the bill.
    "Senator Collins has been working in good faith to achieve an agreement on the process to move forward with the defense bill that contains the repeal of 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell,'" he said.
    Collins received a call from the president yesterday on the matter, according to sources with knowledge about the conversation.
    In remarks to reporters on Wednesday afternoon, Lieberman called on Reid not to hold a vote to bring the bill to the floor this evening -- which Reid indicated was "likely" earlier today -- until Collins and Reid reach an agreement.

    What's the deal?

    While Collins strongly supports repeal, she is reluctant to bring the larger defense bill that includes the DADT provision to the floor without being given assurances that there is a "fair and open" process. In other words, she wants to make sure that senators have to opportunities to debate and vote on several amendments to the sweeping legislation.
    Lieberman says he and Collins have been working with Reid's office to negotiate an agreement to bring the bill to the floor in the fast-waning days of the session.
    As details of the talks have emerged, however, it's evident that those negotiations haven't been going well.
    Democratic aides say Reid has made a reasonable offer that Collins won't accept: 15 amendments, 17 hours of debate, and room to negotiate more.
    Sources close to Collins dispute that claim, suggesting that the Maine senator's discussion with Reid was not that cut and dry.
    And Lieberman says the Democrats blaming Collins don't know what they're talking about.
    "I categorically reject reports by uninformed staffers who have suggested" Collins is not working in 'good faith,'" Lieberman said. "I call on those responsible for such baseless allegations to stop immediately and instead work to get to an agreement to bring this critical bill to the floor for Senate action."
    Lieberman says if an agreement can be reached to get the defense bill on the floor, he's confident the votes are there to repeal the ban.
    "It is now more clear than ever that we have 60 or more votes in support of repealing 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell,' so it is vitally important to reach agreement on the right process to move forward," he said in his statement.

    more

    Parent

    Okay (none / 0) (#190)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:52:47 PM EST
    We're back to President Collins now I guess.

    Collins is playing the same game all the Republicans play: keep moving the bar.

    Parent

    Snowe (none / 0) (#189)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:52:37 PM EST
    made this whole brou-haha in september about needing to see the study first

    study is out...

    I think you may be right about the tax issue

    Parent

    Polling out (none / 0) (#131)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:24:02 PM EST
    on the "tax compromise" issue.

    "A new poll indicates that two-thirds of Americans support the deal between President Barack Obama and congressional Republicans to temporarily extend tax cuts for all Americans"

    but when it comes to the issues:

    only "19 percent say they favor extending the cuts for all Americans, 16 percent saying tax cuts should be permanently extended for families making under $250,000 per year and should be extended temporarily for two years for those above that threshold, 34 percent favoring that the tax cuts should be made permanent for those families earning less than $250,000 a year but no extension for higher wage earners, and 27 percent calling for all tax cuts to sunset."

    So while most people don't want rich people to get lower taxes, but they are willing to make that compromise for the extended unemployment/lower income tax cuts.

    In other words, from a public opinion stand, Obama wins, Republicans lose.  Democrats are irrelevant.

    Link

    No (none / 0) (#135)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:32:07 PM EST
    actually the GOP wins because they get another issue to run on in 2012.

    The sad thing is that Obama is going to take a hit for this and it's Republican trickle down economic policy that will create zero jobs.

    Parent

    what issue? (none / 0) (#141)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:36:22 PM EST
    We're gonna lower rich people's taxes?

    That's not popular, just seen as necessary to accomplish other important goals.

    I agree Obama might end up paying for this in the long run because it's bad policy and the country will not be better off for it.  But it's clearly not bad politics right now.

    I think a lot of people can't see out of the echo chamber.

    Parent

    There's more than one echo-chamber (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by smott on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 03:47:16 PM EST
    ....my brother has been an Obama fan to the nth degree (fits the WholeFoods stereotype, wealthy highly educated liberal, delights in seeing the Kool Kid in the good suit winning out, loathed W...) and IMO in his own echo chamber as far as defending and excusing everything from the primaries through the last 2 years. Since I was a Hillary spuporter I kind of backed off in 2008 with him, esp after he ranted re her calling him a Muslim and then her wishing he'd be assasinated and so on....He/my sis-in-law donated $$ and have the little signed certificates with pics of O and Biden thanking them up on the windowsill....

    I have been very careful with my criticisms of O as I don't want to lose my own brother. I bet him a beer SS would be cut hoping to keep things light between us. This was dismissed as a "bridge too far"....

    Last night he sent me an email re how he was "done" with Obama along with the text of his rant to the Obama website and others. Obama as weak, naive, embarassing, and so on. Really, really angry is my brother and (sad for me cos I love my bro) so very, very disheartened....

    All I can say is, when Obama loses my brother, that is significant. Yes, yes, anecdotal. But anecdotes can be markers.

    I believe this is seismic and that's when I posted re that last night.  

    This is a sea-change now.


    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#144)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:44:48 PM EST
    they'll be running on extending the Bush tax cuts because they'll be able to say that they "expire" which is a half truth that they'll probably get away with especially if they're running against Obama who doesn't challenge them on policy.

    It would have been so much better to pass each item individually and have everybody vote on it. The way it is now people are getting cover for their votes.  

    Parent

    extending the cuts (none / 0) (#148)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:58:22 PM EST
    is unpopular.  The compromise is polular because of the unemployment extension.

    So they'll be running on an unpopular issue...

    With the vote that just happened to only extend cuts to the middle class, there is no cover.

    Parent

    Your (none / 0) (#167)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:29:58 PM EST
    last sentence is exactly right and I wish they also had done it all item by item.

    This bill also cuts the estate tax to the lowest in something like 70 years.

    Parent

    Actually 2nd lowest (none / 0) (#194)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:55:34 PM EST
    It was zero this year

    Parent
    Better to be irrelevant, for now at least.... (none / 0) (#143)
    by vicndabx on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:38:49 PM EST
    Than blamed for failures:

    If Democrats are considered in media accounts the prime factors in killing the deal, Republicans may well be happy to play a waiting game, refusing to extend unemployment benefits (much less provide additional economic stimulus through a payroll tax holiday or extension of low-income refundable tax credits) and blaming any economic or political fallout on divisions among Democrats. A tax logjam will also provide a convenience excuse for the GOP to continue to obstruct votes on DADT and the START treaty.

    The Democratic Strategist

    Parent

    You see: (none / 0) (#146)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:49:56 PM EST
    That's negotiating with hostage takers. They are still going to hold up UE then if that's right. They only have to wait a year to do it.

    And they are going to hold up everything they can whether they get this deal or not. They are going to make Obama continually cave into their demands. They know he's an easy roll and they're going to continue.

    They thought they could do it to Clinton but he showed them the door. Obama is going to be wearing a sign that says "don't kick me" for the next two years.

    Parent

    and it will still be unpopular (none / 0) (#187)
    by vicndabx on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:50:40 PM EST
    but less folks on the hook (i.e. not those making less than $250K) in a year. Will the Republicans want to screw poor folk again publicly?  We will see.  


    Parent
    Well, shoot, I could probably get the (none / 0) (#150)
    by Anne on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:01:19 PM EST
    numbers I wanted if I were asking the questions the way they were asked in this instance...

    It would just be so much more honest if the media - and apparently the pollsters - were describing this accurately.  This is about extending rates, not giving any actual cuts, and it is about determining up to what income levels the rates will apply.

    I'd venture to guess that much of the public thinks that if someone makes over some magic total income, they get no "cuts" at all - when, as we know, people are going to get the lower rates up to that level, no matter what their total net income is.  If the cut-off is $250K, all income up to that level will be taxed at the lower, Bush-era rates; income over that level would be taxed at the pre-Bush rates.

    It's pretty simple, and yet, most of the time it is framed as "people" making X dollars, and not "the first X dollars of income."

    Bugs the crap out of me.

    Parent

    I think people get it (none / 0) (#169)
    by CST on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:32:39 PM EST
    as an individual issue, the extended tax cuts/rates for people who make over $250,000 are not politically popular.  The compromise to extend them in return for extended unemployment benefits is.

    Parent
    I'm thinking Sputnik (none / 0) (#138)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:34:03 PM EST
    said Chester E. Finn Jr., who served in President Ronald Reagan's Department of Education, referring to the groundbreaking Soviet satellite launching. Mr. Finn, who has visited schools all across China, said, "I've seen how relentless the Chinese are at accomplishing goals, and if they can do this in Shanghai in 2009, they can do it in 10 cities in 2019, and in 50 cities by 2029."

    Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators

    think for a moment (none / 0) (#147)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 01:56:14 PM EST
    we are not becoming a two tier society?

    a new service launching in 2011 aims to put movies into your home the same day that they're released in theaters. The only catch? The digital-delivery system costs $20,000. Don't worry though, that's only a one-time fee. The fee per film is just a measly $500 on top of the $20,000. So is there a market for ultra-rich cinephiles?

    of course there is.

    Reminds me of.... (none / 0) (#157)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:09:24 PM EST
    PSL's in pro sports...20 large for the license to buy a ticket.  

    Parent
    The rich can spend their tax break on it (none / 0) (#163)
    by republicratitarian on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:18:19 PM EST
    National Speech on Economy (none / 0) (#164)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:18:42 PM EST
    but running for president, me?! pshaw.

    Mayor Bloomberg this morning will unveil a state and national plan to create more jobs - and maybe help him get a new job, too.

    His slated speech at the Brooklyn Navy Yard will take leaders in Washington and Albany to task for not finding common ground to spur the economy, one insider said.

    "Our economy's revival is very fragile, and business creation is what I'm going to talk about tomorrow," the mayor said yesterday. "I think New York has done a good job. We still have too many unemployed here. We've got to find work for them."

    Although the mayor isn't expected to criticize President Obama, the speech gives Bloomberg another national platform as he lays the groundwork for a potential presidential run in 2012.

    "That's all this is about," said one dignitary invited to the event, which is sponsored by the Association for a Better New York and the Brooklyn Chamber of Commerce.



    Hey Bloomie... (none / 0) (#186)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:50:36 PM EST
    "I think New York has done a good job. We still have too many unemployed here. We've got to find work for them."

    Maybe you should call off your dog Ray Kelly who is out and about putting people out of work and into chains...see "Operation Ivy League".

    Parent

    all part (none / 0) (#191)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:53:04 PM EST
    or the 2012 campaign

    Parent
    The interesting thing is (none / 0) (#195)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:56:46 PM EST
    It seems to be implied that married men are nicer because women "socialize" them.

    How does this play in the same-sex marriage debate?

    gay men (none / 0) (#196)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 02:58:21 PM EST
    are already socialized

    Parent
    How about (none / 0) (#197)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 03:02:24 PM EST
    lesbians?  :)

    Parent
    got me (none / 0) (#198)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 at 03:13:41 PM EST