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It Only Takes One Vote To Let The Bush Tax Cuts Expire

For much of the Obama Administration, some have defended its actions by arguing that you need 60 votes in the Senate to do anything. Whatever the merits of that argument, it surely does not apply with regard to the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, which merely requires Obama's resolve on the matter.

That resolve appears to be lacking and it seems we will be soon seeing a headline that reads "Obama Extends Bush Tax Cuts." One of the points I have consistently attempted to make is that demonstrating resolve is essential in a negotiation. Today, E.J. Dionne writes:

Obama seems to have decided that showing how conciliatory he can be is more important than making clear where he stands. The administration's strategy is rooted in a fear of what Republicans are willing to do, which only strengthens the GOP's bargaining position.

The president figures that congressional Republicans would be quite happy to let taxes on the middle class rise on Jan. 1 if that's the price of continuing to fight for the tax cuts for the rich. In a game of chicken, Republicans are willing to gamble - even if the economy would take a hit.

There are three issues that Obama's position raises: (1) given a choice between letting the Bush tax cuts expire or not letting them expire, which is the better policy choice? (2) which is the better political choice? and (3) what approach would provide you the best position to bargain for a policy choice of your choosing (in Obama's case, he has stated he wants to keep the Bush tax cuts for the first $250,000 of income and let the rest expire.)

It seemed to me, as I wrote many, many months ago, that there was a convergence with regard to these 3 issues - (1) that letting all the Bush tax cuts expire was preferable to extending all the Bush tax cuts, (2) that this was the better political choice and (3) that this reality would put Obama and the Dems in a better bargaining position with the GOP.

Apparently, Obama and the Dems disagree with my assessment on all counts. But if that is so, how is it possible to justify austerity proposals in the name of reducing the deficit? As Dionne writes:

The dance toward a capitulation on the tax cuts was perfectly timed for the release of the fiscal plan put forward by the chairs of the deficit commission, Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson. Bowles and Simpson are having trouble winning broad commission support for their plan. And in truth, how can anyone take a deficit-reduction proposal seriously when the main order of business in Congress is to make sure we widen the deficit by keeping all of the Bush tax cuts?

I have no idea what Obama and the Dems are thinking on these issues. Either they are this stupid or this incompetent. As many things happened that I disagreed with during this Administration, the month after the election has been incomprehensible to me on any level.

My refrain is "pols are pols and do what they do." But what they do is generally intended to help them win election or reelection. Nothing that Obama and the Dems have done seems geared towards that end. It is impossible to understand.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    What Obama and the Dems are thinking (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Demi Moaned on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 08:23:44 AM EST
    I don't think Obama has the least idea of what constitutes good policy.

    Overall, they seem to be scared of their own shadow. There's no doubt that Republicans would make tremendous political hay out of it if the situations of the two parties were exactly reversed.

    I think that Obama lacks (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 08:32:53 AM EST
    an inner core.  I think that that is why Teddy picked him - because people with fungible values and principles are easy to control - and that that is why Obama is blowing in the political wind on every issue.

    Parent
    Nah, O has an (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 10:27:09 AM EST
    inner core -- an operating principle of avoiding conflict by appeasing the oppo.  He's not evil or sociopathic (and we've had a couple of presidents of that psycho ilk) -- he just wants to make friends of his enemies.

    And Teddy never struck me as the Machiavellian master controller behind the scenes type, such as a Cheney or Rove.  I think he chose the way he did after a negative phone chat with Bill during the primaries and the MLK, JFK, LBJ comments made by Hillary which rubbed him the wrong way.

    Parent

    I think you must have missed (none / 0) (#25)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 10:46:41 AM EST
    your Kennedy clan history lesson.

    I remember a recent quote from one of the Kennedy clan regarding Arnold - they said something about how the family was very pleased with his becoming governor because they really like to win.

    And there's nothing inherently evil in being a Zelig.  More pathetic than anything.

    Parent

    There's nothing (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:19:36 AM EST
    noteworthy about the Kennedys, famously and fiercely loyal to one another even if only by marriage, rallying to a family member's cause, even if he's a Repub.  A bit awkward, for sure, but Arnold put forth enough "bipartisan" rhetoric in that crazy recall circus that it made Kennedys campaigning for him somewhat less awkward.

    There's also nothing remarkable about pols wanting to back someone they perceive will be a winner.  I think you're misreading the Ted and O situation.

    More interesting is what some of his 2008 backers among the Kennedy clan and inner circle think about him now.  Hard to believe some of them, privately perhaps, aren't scratching their heads and grumbling about O's gravitating towards the GOP on policy and lack of bold liberal leadership, things Uncle Teddy loudly criticized Pres Carter for.

    Parent

    The k's chose Obama (none / 0) (#32)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:27:32 AM EST
    to kill off a Clinton twofer and preserve the Kennedy 'legacy.'  Envy is a strong motivator.

    Talk about your fair-weather friends...

    Parent

    Nah, that's a little too (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:40:54 AM EST
    cynical about that family, besides missing the real reasons which I noted above.

    Remember too that the family was hardly totally united behind O.  RFK Jr and Kathleen Kennedy Townsend both endorsed Hillary.

    Parent

    Too cynical about a pol? (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:30:29 PM EST
    Please.  Although I doubt Big Tent would agree with me about Teddy, he WOULD remind you that pols are pols and they do what they do...and will disappoint you every time.

    Dumpng the Clintons and choosing Obama was the Teddy and Caroline show.  Yes, I know Kathleen and RFK Jr had other priorities and stuck with Hillary.  They still have their own politcal lives to live and legacies to leave.  Teddy's, though, was about the family...particularly since he had let them down in the most embarrassing political moment ever witnessed on television.  The second most embarrassing (when the books are written years from now) will prove to be the "passing the torch" speech by Teddy and the extravaganza they put on to 'endorse' Obama.

    And, if you recall, Caroline had her own ambitious agenda.  That didn't work out so well either.

    Parent

    the "k's" (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by CST on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:47:06 AM EST
    didn't choose anyone.  They split.  Some backed Hillary, some backed Obama.  Sure, the more prominent ones like Caroline and Ted went for Obama.  But RFK jr and Kathleen Kennedy went for Hillary (who, btw, T.K. helped raise and were very close to).

    There was no "master scheme" to do anything.

    Parent

    RFK, jr. is (none / 0) (#115)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:27:24 PM EST
    I would argue prominent....especially on environmental issues....

    Parent
    If you can show me how Obama (none / 0) (#36)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:57:35 AM EST
    was ever going to get to the White House without Teddy and the coalition that he built for Obama, I might concede your point, but as it stands, the history of Obama's rise to the ranks of Presidential candidate material as a two-year Senator and a "community organizer" is due to the Kennedy clan's support and commitment to his candidacy.  This notion that Obama came from nowhere or that his was a real grassroots campaign is pure mythology.  No one comes from "nowhere" in DC at that level of politics - that's just the way it is and likely always will be.

    Parent
    Who's arguing here (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:12:54 PM EST
    that O came from nowhere?

    Go back to no later than 2004, Dem Convo.  Did Teddy pick O as keynoter, or was that the Kerry camp?  A:  the latter.  And that was what pushed O immediately into the ranks of presidential potentials.

    Thereafter, look to the quiet urging of Sens Daschle and Durbin, and probably a few others, who were telling him to strike now -- the 2008 cycle -- while the iron is still hot.  Did Ted offer similar advice?  Not that I"m aware of, but if you have a cite along those lines.

    Beyond that, it's been well chronicled re Hillary's semi-implosion in the Oct-Nov period which burst her bubble of inevitability -- and that occurred months before any Kennedy made an endorsement.  Ditto for her poor IA showing of 3d place -- again, no Kennedys involved, just poor campaign strategy and management on her part.  Etc etc.  The die was cast for O and against HRC before Teddy and Caroline spoke out, and afaik there was prior to that no backroom maneuvering by Kennedys to push O forward at the expense of Hillary.

    Parent

    Yes... (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:52:35 PM EST
    Daschle, Durbin, KERRY and finally, Kennedy, along with a few others in the anti-Clinton camp.

    It hasn't played out quite the way they envisioned it...Daschle didn't get his White House office and two jobs (but his wife is right up there now!) and Kerry didn't get Sec. of State (boy he must be steamed) and, of course, Caroline wasn't appointed to Hillary's Senate seat after all.  Doggone.

    Some things just don't work out no matter how powerful the players.

    They made him president but they couldn't make him an FDR Democrat with savvy and politicaal street smarts.  What they really didn't know was that it was just 'all about him.'

    While they thought they were using him it was quite the other way around.  Sad for the country as this inexperienced and unimaginative president stumbles from one pathetic policy doublecross to another, 'leading' the Democratic Party over the cliff.

    Great, huh?

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by CST on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:20:52 PM EST
    you a) overestimate TK's impact - Obama had already won Iowa - that's what started it all.  Obama didn't even end up winning MA - TK's home state.

    And b) even if you were right that it was some king of game changer, noting TKs influence is not the same thing as proof of motive for anything.

    Parent

    Not only did TK's (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:31:30 PM EST
    endorsement not have much sway in his home state of MA, but in CA where the Kennedys are quite popular and where the O campaign held a very well pubbed rally in L.A. with Caroline, Oprah and Maria Shriver, in that primary Hillary won easily over O.

    Odd to hear this sort of Dark Kennedy conspiracy theory on a supposedly left-lib board.  

    Parent

    Not odd at all...and not a (none / 0) (#48)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:50:01 PM EST
    "dark Kennedy conspiracy theory."

    Ted changed horses in midstream at, he said, the urging of Caroline and other young Kennedys.  Why did he do it?

    I didn't make up the word 'legacy' with regard to the Kennedys.  If you had lived through their political history as I did, it might not seem so strange to you.  The 60s, the 70s, the 80s...and Teddy's fall from political grace more times than you can count.

    I'm not saying he had no redeeming qualities as a person...clearly he was terrific with Jackie and with Bobby's kids.  Politically?  He screwed it up.  Big time.

    His "Passing the Torch" speech and extravaganza seemed to offer redemption, I'd say.  Did you watch that event?  I did.  They couldn't get him off the stage and away from the microphone, remember?

    And then there was the Caroline saga...did that have no meaning to you whatever?

    Parent

    oldpro, recall (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:19:03 PM EST
    the reports at the time (early 2008) re Bill and Ted talking on the phone.  According to some accounts (and one book) Bill made a snarky remark about O's sudden rise which Ted took to be race-based.  Not sure if that was debunked or what TK said about it, if he mentioned it at all, in his final memoir.  

    But it might have been things like that, plus the above-mentioned remarks by HRC re JFK/MLK/LBJ, which decided it for Ted who, iirc, also wasn't necessarily firmly in the Hillary camp before that -- merely friendly to the Clintons as he was to a number of pols.  So I think you're stretching to refer to Ted "changing horses in midstream."  Several (black) pols switched allegiance midstream in the primaries (from HRC to O), but since Ted hadn't publicly or privately endorsed before that, no change of allegiance occurred.  

    As for the passing the torch business, a little hyperbole on TK's part but par for the course for pols.  But it did seem at the time to reflect a sense of excitement about the young O who, recall, was causing a number of swooning observers on the left, not just Ted, to make comparisons not only to JFK but to Abe and FDR.

    Parent

    Yes...I recall it all...and more! (none / 0) (#76)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:37:51 PM EST
    And if Ted took a snarky remark from Bill to be 'race-based' that is almost as disgusting as the arm-twisting by the would-be whip whose behavior in 'convincing' some black delegates to switch from Hillary to Obama will never be forgotten.

    Whatever Bill and Hillary said was twisted to fit the scenario for Obama.  Neither one has a race-based bone in their body.  Teddy?  The jury is out.  Who were his AA friends, if he had any?  I'm drawing a blank.

    It might be just the chemo brain, tho.

    Parent

    oldpro, I starting to get (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:22:47 PM EST
    the feeling you may not be a huge fan of the Kennedys.

    As for any AA friends of TK, I'd be very surprised if he didn't count the King family (Mrs King, Dexter, MLK3, etc) and John Lewis, among many others, as friends.  But if you meant one clearly identifiable person sort of always around Ted the way Bill had Vernon Jordan, well is that the measure of someone's race blindness or sincere feelings?  

    I wouldn't disagree about Clinton being about as free of racial animus as anyone with his background could be, but I don't say that based on his friendship with VJ but by his actions in policy achievement and advocacy.  And TK's track record was similar, even a little ahead if we count very early anti-apartheid advocacy and his early senate advocacy for the 1964 and 1965 CR bills.  That's enough for me, not whether one of his best buds happens to be black.

    Parent

    OK brodie. (none / 0) (#95)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:35:16 PM EST
    Re the 'free-of racial animus' issue:  I've always found it amazing and compelling that two white guys like Bill Clinton and Wes Clark who grew up in Arkansas without a trace of racial bias and found their way to the top...no connections...with only their brains and wits to steer them.  And the learning-from-experience factor, of course.

    Yes...I was a Clarkie, too, and damn proud of it.

    Parent

    To: brodie (none / 0) (#96)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:43:20 PM EST
    Adding to your "feeling" expressed in your first sentence: From time to time a Republican friend brings up some "issue" that usually has a subterranean Kennedy-family-power-play motif somewhere (tho, to be totally honest, that theme among this gentlemen and his Repub group is being overtaken these days by a Clinton Redux theme...ala "what will happen to your party if she challenges" etc.) My take on all of this is (1) Repubs and semi-Repubs have never gotten over the JFK victory all those years ago because, as usual, they considered any loss to be the result of fraud and then viewed the family legacy as the great shadowy threat; and, (2) Repubs will continue to inject "what ifs" about Clinton as the transparent wedge issue that they love so much.

    Parent
    christine, agree about (none / 0) (#117)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:31:24 PM EST
    those GOP-driven dark suspicions about the Kennedys and their not ever getting over 1960.  Certainly Dick Nixon never seemed to.

    Sadly, these feelings aren't always confined to GOP sore losers.  There are a couple of elements on the far left (Chomsky et al) and various Kennedy detractors (previously associated, way back, with the LBJ-Cold Warrior Hawk-Big Business wing of the party) who also are frequently seen on the lefty blogs going after the Kennedys and their alleged Machiavellian power-grubbing ways.  Actually some major and minor left bloggers and frequent diarists -- quite a few as I think of the more important sites -- are not exactly in the Kennedy camp and tend to express rather fact-free 2-dimensional negative portraits of the clan or JFK.

    Parent

    There's nothing dark and (none / 0) (#49)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:51:04 PM EST
    conspiratorial about acknowledging that Teddy Kennedy was his mentor through this process and that he had a huge role in getting him in and going.  Maybe you don't understand how Washington politics actually work or something.  If this sort of story is surprising and "conspiratorial" in your mind, I would think you don't understand much about how it works here at all.

    Parent
    Oh but I do understand (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:24:51 PM EST
    the process.  You just fail to acknowledge the key insiders from the senate -- Sens Daschle and Durbin, whom I cited above -- who were clearly instrumental in helping O decide to run, and I believe that is confirmed by later accounts from the O camp.  You want to make it seem as if it were all Ted's doing, but that's giving him far too much credit, or discredit, depending on your pov, although there may not be any credit, or very much, to give him in the early decision-making process.  

    Parent
    I noted that there was a coalition. (none / 0) (#75)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:36:58 PM EST
    I think that you are splitting hairs and I also think that you are grossly downplaying the role that Ted Kennedy played well before he endorsed Obama publicly as well as how important his public endorsement was.

    Harry Reid also had a lot to do with encouraging Obama to run.  The main point is that within the Democratic Party machine at the time there were two camps of thought-leaders: The Clintons and the Kennedys.  It is no secret that the Clintons and the Kennedys have had something of a rivalry for many years now.  Teddy didn't like the idea of a President Hillary Clinton primarily because he knew that he could not control her.  Like many of those in the Senate who saw the potential for their own greatness in a Democrat finally being back in the White House, he was interested in a candidate with whom he would hold some sway.  Who better for that than a newbie like Obama?

    Anyway, the rest is history and Teddy died before he planned to - now Obama is hanging with his other buddies like Reid, Baucus, Coburn, and Durbin.

    None of this that I have described is conspiratorial - its just politics - a typical and fairly pedestrian story of politics - complete with egos, factions, rivalries and power struggles.

    Parent

    Well to the extent you're (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:59:36 PM EST
    finally acknowledging other major influences on O besides Ted, we are more in agreement.

    Re TK, after his very poor relations with Carter and perhaps his disappointment with the Clintons over their failed health care effort (though I'm not up on the backstory details of that one), and being a pol and a party elder, it's no great surprise that in his calculations he would have leaned to O on the issue of having greater influence.  What pol wouldn't want to have more sway with a fellow Dem, particularly one with Ted's prior experience and particularly one with whom TK could have a mentor-protegé relationship?  And what pol, especially after the great IA victory of O, wouldn't want to associate himself with what looked to be a winner and a promising prez?

    Sorry, but I just don't buy some of the criticism of TK here nor the overestimating of his influence as if O hadn't been hearing from other major senators about his 08 decision, though clearly to the extent any endorsement these days is influential, getting Ted on board was an overall plus for O -- just not the game changer some would have it be.

    Parent

    I read this stuff with (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:18:03 PM EST
    my jaw dropped to my chest.  The ferocity of anti-Kennedy venom from some folks here and elsewhere on the supposed "left," and to the absolute best friend and most stalwart champion the left has ever had in major political office, is astonishing to me.

    I'm also astounded by the ignorance of the way TK actually operated during his career, and particularly the latter decades of it, filled in instead by bizarre fantasies of Machiavellian double-dealing and insatiable lust for power, and the lack of understanding of how this kind of stuff actually works in politics, never mind a basic understanding of TK's very obvious yearning psyche vis-a-vis his brothers.

    Thanks, Brodie, for so calmly rebutting as much of it as you can with facts and rationality.  All I'm capable of is sputtering in response to it.

    Parent

    Anti-Kennedy? (none / 0) (#119)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:35:17 PM EST
    Wow.  None of what I've written about this is anti-anyone - except maybe my take on Obama which isn't exactly positive - but that's not even "anti" as much as it is my take on who he is and what he is about based on how he's performed in the White House - and also based on what I observed of him while he was in the Senate.  I like the Kennedys - I even like the Clintons - sheesh.

    Parent
    Hey, if the shoe fits, (none / 0) (#158)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:09:59 PM EST
    and all that.  If it doesn't, don't accuse me of trying to force it on you.

    Parent
    The shoe doesn't fit. (none / 0) (#159)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 08:45:14 AM EST
    And I am completely surprised that you'd have such a dark interpretation of a recounting of fairly pedestrian and typical political history.  What do people think goes on here in DC anyway?  You think that these pols sit around in silos until the voters give them orders?  Well, I could see that to some extent - but that's not what goes on here - and it is widely accepted that they are supposed to do their deals and create their coalitions - that's how democracy works.

    Parent
    Thx gyr. (none / 0) (#120)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:37:24 PM EST
    I doubt Teddy would have been as gung ho (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:05:32 PM EST
    about Afghanistan......

    The Teddy controlling Obama theory does not work on several levels.

    And the rift between the Kennedys and Clintons was largely a creation of 2008.  Before then, Bill very much wanted to be part of the Kennedy legacy.  He showed film of him shaking hands with JFK when Bill was in high school.  He said he could see the eternal flame from the Oval office.

    Phil Hartmann, or maybe it was one of the others, said he could not nail the Bill impression until he understood that Bill was a Southernor trying to talk like JFK.

    Any difference between Teddy and Bill would have been along the lines of the rift with Carter--Teddy to the Left, Bill a DLCer.

    Then, came the primaries, and all history was reconfigured in a different light to cast venom on those who did not support Hillary....Time to move on....

    Good grief, there are enough policy issues to address without recycling old ad hominems....

    Parent

    The Kennedy family has, (none / 0) (#89)
    by KeysDan on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:16:37 PM EST
    for a long time, had an influence in Chicago and Illinois politics, stemming from their ownership of the Merchandise Mart and Apparel Center. The properties were sold about ten years ago, but Chris Kennedy (Robert's son) continues as President of Merchandise Properties Management and is presently Chair of the University of Illinois Board of Trustees.

    Obama's rise in Illinois politics included important business and political connections, and his being tapped (at the time a little known State Senator from Chicago's Hyde Park/Kenwood) by the Kerry campaign as keynoter may well have come from a Kennedy recommendation. Now, how that may have played out later, I guess we will have to await somebody's book or a Wikileak. But, Obama's acquaintance with Bill Ayers must have been kept at arms length, based on Chris Kennedy's recent vote against "emeritus" status for the retired Professor Ayers, because  "Ayers work includes,in part, a book dedicated to the man who murdered my father."   Note: William Ayers denied dedication to assassins; the reference apparently came from his 1974 book,'Prairie Fire" where he dedicated a list of some 200 revolutionaries, including Sirhan Sirhan.

    Parent

    KD, according to (5.00 / 0) (#100)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:00:12 PM EST
    this source, O may have been selected more because the Dem convo manager, Jack Corrigan, had an aide who went to HLS with O, knew him and spoke well of him.

    Plus the Kerry camp was polling a little behind, at the time, with AAs, and the other finalist for the keynoter was the far less dynamic speaker Jennifer Granholm.  Also Kerry had a few months earlier met O in IL as he campaigned for the senate nom, and was impressed.

    Parent

    The wikipedia article you cite to says this (none / 0) (#109)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:23:14 PM EST

    Although there were some internal worries about his style of speaking, lack of experience with a teleprompter, opposition to the Iraq War that Kerry initially supported, and the fact that he was only a state senator, they eventually chose Obama over the other finalist, Jennifer Granholm, in part because polls showed Kerry with less support among African-Americans than Democrats normally enjoyed and because he was running for an important Senate seat.

    Not good with the teleprompter....

    Parent

    Hah! (none / 0) (#121)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:39:16 PM EST
    Good catch MKS.

    Parent
    Good point, brodie (none / 0) (#52)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:00:58 PM EST
    And, in the spring (around the PA primary), some Congressional leaders spoke openly about truncating the process as Hillary Clinton picked up speed. The push by certain Congressional members at that time combined with the "fascinating" superdelegate argument, in my mind, resolved the issue in favor of then-candidate Obama. (But then, all types of Repubs have always gravitated to the Kennedys-as-rulers-of-the-universe theories.) IMO, the potential for repositioning the Legislative Branch in terms of ascendancy played a bigger than usual rolein 2008.

    Parent
    Left lib board--kinda (none / 0) (#67)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:26:05 PM EST
    It is a former Hillary board....

    It is easy to keep score here....

    What do Teddy, Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Boxer (who is more liberal than Feinstein--but DiFi is okay whereas Boxer isn't), Josh Marshall, Markos and other similar terrible people have in common?  They did not support the correct person in the Primaries.....  

    Parent

    It's only "easy to keep score" ... (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:26:42 PM EST
    ... when you keep playing the same imaginary game in your head.

    BTW - It's also not about supporting the "correct" person in the primaries.  When it actually is about the primaries (as opposed to many times when you think it's about the primaries), it's about the hypocrisy and the ridiculous accusations leveled by Marshall, Markos, et. al.

    Parent

    The California Primary (none / 0) (#122)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:41:45 PM EST
    Obama in retrospect really had no chance of beating Hillary in California because of the Latino vote....

    Sure, Obama had the big rally where Maria attended too.  

    But Hillary had shown her political smarts in the Nevada Caucus by walking a Latino neighborhood.  She was seen in a livingroom listening to a Latino family's tale of woe.  Game, set, match for Hillary.

    She was the strong maternal figure helping the pobrecitos.  

    Especially for Mexican Americans (and other Latinos) who venerate the Virgin de Guadalupe (the Virgin Mary who miraculously appeared to the lowly Mexican peasant Juan Diego), this was an unbeatable image.   And Latinos felt they knew her, and that she could bring prosperity as did her husband Bill.

    Parent

    See my response to brodie upthread. (none / 0) (#46)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:39:38 PM EST
    No 'proof' of motive...of course not.  Pure speculation on my part as a Kennedy watcher since the 50s.  But when a politician switches sides, there's a reason and one thinks of all the history and political ramifications from such a bold move.  Do you think you know why Teddy did it?  So do I.

    Only time and the books yet to be written will tell and I won't be around to say "I told you so!"

    Parent

    The last couple of years, Maria (none / 0) (#111)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:24:53 PM EST
    has bulldozed Ahnold all over the place....

    Parent
    Who schmoozed whom? (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:21:05 PM EST
    Obama sought out and actively engaged Teddy from the beginning.....He asked Teddy to tutor him in Senate history and protocol and had weekly meetings with him....

    Obama also schmoozed Kerry.  Obama chaired a Senate subcommitte that rejected Bush's nomination of one of the swift boat financiers to be U.S. Ambassasor (to some country.)

    Parent

    Right, and being a (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:31:41 PM EST
    freshman senator, it wasn't unreasonable for him to seek out elders like Ted (and Byrd, etc) for advice and to understand the ways of that institution.

    He also linked up with Joe Lieberman, his official mentor, iirc.

    Clearly O when he came to the senate was a young man of tremendous ambition, and clearly there was probably more to O's motives with Ted and others beyond mere acquisition of knowledge about the senate.  But it's just a little too narrow a reading -- bordering almost on conspiratorial let's say -- to ascribe all the early maneuverings for the presidential race to the undue influence of Ted Kennedy even if he was one senator O might have spoken with frequently.  

    Parent

    Personally, I don't ascribe ANY of the (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:03:47 PM EST
    early manuevering to Teddy...it was Daschle, Durbin, Kerry and Axelrod/Plouffe in the beginning, aided by Reid & Pelosi, Cliburn etc.

    When the Obama train derailed mid-campaign, it was Teddy/Caroline to the rescue.

    That's my view.

    Parent

    Daschle was a very, very early supporter (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:11:59 PM EST
    I had contributed to Daschle's failed re-election campaign (in 2004?)  Beginning in early 2007, I got email after email from Daschle and Obama about Obama.....

    I also contributed  token amount to Bayh's 2004 re-election campaign--just so I could be on his list.  Bayh was a Hillary supporter.  I still get emails from Indiana Democrats--including the guy who was running for Senate this last time around.   But I got zippo from Hillary.

    So, Dashcle gave over his donor list to Obama, but Bayh didn't share his with Hillary....I guess he thought Hillary was a rival....

    Parent

    Well if you're a smart pol, (none / 0) (#94)
    by brodie on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:31:32 PM EST
    you want your endorsement to be timely and have the greatest positive impact.  Ted, Caroline and O's campaign understood this, and the fact that it was well timed shouldn't be held against either Kennedy.

    Not that I was too happy about either one at the time, given I was backing Hillary.  

    Parent

    C'mon..."held against?" (none / 0) (#97)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:45:48 PM EST
    Didn't you ask yourself why that happened?  Didn't you watch the Passing the Torch speech and extravaganza?  And didn't you think the 'Caroline for Senate' campaign was wierd?

    These things don't happen in a political vacuum.  There is always a reason, or set of reasons, for what seems superficially inexplicable at the time.

    Parent

    It wasn't ever "inexplicable" (none / 0) (#98)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:53:46 PM EST
    It was just politics. (And, I strongly supported Hillary Clinton at the time.)

    Parent
    Hmmm. It is my view that (none / 0) (#99)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:56:55 PM EST
    there is no such thing as 'just politics.'

    I gather your mileage varies from mine!

    Parent

    Okay--but then, under all the circumstances (none / 0) (#104)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:05:46 PM EST
    of at least the last 50 or 60 years, are you using the name "oldpro" jokingly or less than seriously. Then again, "just politics" to me is probably somewhat Machiavellian...not in terms of my beliefs, but in terms of what I have seen. And, especially as to Presidential politics, I cannot recall purity or theory defining the officeholder in my lifetime. Without a real template it could be a  definitional difference, perhaps.

    Parent
    oldpro is ironic at best but it's no (none / 0) (#113)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:26:37 PM EST
    joke...at least not to me.

    I'm old...74...and dying to make it to 75.  We'll see.

    Since I was 17 I have spent the major portion of my spare and volunteer time and over $50,000 of my own working-class, hard-earned money in Democratic politics, eventually running local campaigns and lastly, a legislative office for the House Majority Leader from '93-'99.

    In my experience, christinep, there are two kinds of people in politics:  shorthand, showhorses and workhorses...in other words, those who want to 'be somebody' and those who want to 'do something...get something done...solve problems and help people.'  Those two templates are definitional for me.

    Parent

    Thanks, oldpro (none / 0) (#139)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:12:29 PM EST
    Now, the appellation "oldpro" has clear meaning. I've come to see those horses as well; and, tend to think too many showhorses must have been bred lately. Turning more optimistically to the dedicated, thoughtful ones who do the heavy lifting: Thank you.
    A separate thought--and not intending to push debate about certain Democratic families further: It seems that Sen. Edward Kennedy may have transformed from his early inheritance days to quite the fine, solid, liberally reliable "workhorse" in the Senate. Whatever it demonstrated, those 40 years of public service (where one had other easier big $$ choices) speak well for the individual.  Using other analogies, I prefer the marathon to the sprint...any day!

    Parent
    Not wishing to push the debate any (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 08:15:00 PM EST
    further either, christinep, but...

    I'm recalling Teddy's widow pleading with the congress to pass Obamacare because healthcare 'was the dream of his legislative life'...or words to that effect.  My question is, then why didn't 'Mr. Effective Workhorse' get it done when he had Democratic presidents and a Democratic congress?

    I believe he later said he was sorry he passed up the opportunity when Nixon was president (!) not to mention the first two years of the Clinton administratio.

    No kidding.

    Not my kind of leadership or effectiveness for a Democrat.

    Parent

    I took the point to mean: Compromise (none / 0) (#155)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 08:27:14 PM EST
    Ted Kennedy confessed that he should have compromised at the time. That message, among other experiences in my own life, helped me to accept the incrementalism of our healthcare reform. (I have my own litany of areas where a compromise in my own circumstances would have been the wiser course as well. We all have those areas in our lives--as I'm sure you know--where we consider whether we held out in stubborness or in principle. Only we can answer for ourselves, of course.)
    One of the most engrossing discussions, imo, concerns the many approaches to leadership. Public service, and what it means; concern for others, and what it means...wondrous.

    Parent
    Good points and well said. (none / 0) (#156)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 10:19:13 PM EST
    Incrementalism is almost always necessary in issues legislation.

    I always tell would-be candidates that what needs doing in the job they're seeking amounts to, say, 100 inches of progress and if they can't settle for 5-10 inches as their own contribution, they probably don't have the patience and understanding of the process to serve in office.

    Talk to me some more about what you think leadership is...

    Parent

    An RSVP to your invitation (none / 0) (#160)
    by christinep on Fri Dec 03, 2010 at 03:23:13 PM EST
    to talk a bit about "leadership."  Let's see....
    (A) I first encountered the possibilities of the expansive word in JFK's "Profiles in Courage." A lesson from that long-time-ago read (but a lesson that continues) is that the circumstances, subject at issue, and the person most directly involved--all of these--matter. There are situations calling for stepping ahead and courageously, openly, fully moving with a choice/position/action. Foreign policy issues involving military actions and responses to emergencies/near emergencies would fit that description well. OTOH, there are situations where the citizenry may be positioned in theory and reallife to know as much about (or have the potential to know enough about) a subject matter as the officeholder--where some time can be taken for more inclusion in decisionmaking. In the latter case, a person presumed to be the leader can try to pull the constituents with him/her by asserting the classic command-mode of leadership, but find genuine resistance...and, so he is way ahead without the flock. When the citizenry expect inclusion in a mature democratic republic and/or when the subject does not require only subject matter expertise OR where the subject is driven primarily by values, the circumstances could best be addressed by a servant-leader wherein following the people becomes the essential leadership.
    (2) A number of management models in the past 20 or so years attempt to spell out situations where "command & control" (fires, police enforcement, emergencies) works and where it might be better to "tell & sell" (new policies, yet still needing central top-down ultimate decisionmaking) to the committee/commission combined recommendation from staff to employer (e.g., policies require the cooperation of staff or broader base of people) to the "let the staff/people decide w/veto available to employer (e.g., office decorations, certain immediate environment conditions.) IMO, the leadership studies that produce these management models--when pared down--show a continuum that detail the suggestions found in JFK's much earlier work.
    (3) I think that a particular difficulty in a democracy is knowing when a particular type of "leadership" works best. And, the individual personality of the elected official is going to influence that outcome...sometimes a lot. A retired military officer, for example, may have a difficult entry into a position where people expect extensive outreach, personal interraction, etc.; a cool, professorial type might have to reach deep for the display of empathy so many expect in challenging times; the mercurial temperament can more than "feel the pain" but may seem to some to use emotion more than logic; and so on.  Add to all of this: Experiences. If the "leader" had been schooled in and followed an approach to decisionmaking that encourages consensus-building and alliance development (oh, say, a community organizer or group dynamic expert), the servant-leader motif is enhanced. But, what if there is perceived to be an immediate/emergency/time critical need for decision, action?  What a challenge! (You get the point, I'm sure.)

    On a personal note: I believe that we all have our natural & learned leadership responses. My own bent--if I don't flinch looking in the mirror--is along the "tell" (command & control) side. YET, I know that circumstances and hard lessons have helped me honestly feel a lot more comfortable with sharing decisionmaking, opening up to being pushed (not changing bedrock beliefs) to a greater tolerance, etc. Compromise is an art ... a continuing work of art. (For the practical, inching ahead--knowing when to take the half-loaf--but, always keeping your eye on the goal.) Thank you for the courtesy of your invitation.

    Parent

    Thanks for the thoughtful response. (none / 0) (#161)
    by oldpro on Sat Dec 04, 2010 at 12:54:45 AM EST
    There are no power brokers among (none / 0) (#79)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:41:30 PM EST
    the Democrats.....Obama won over many Senators.  Hillary had significant influence too, as did Bill.

    The Will Rogers quote about Democrats has always been true....

    Parent

    How did that happen? (none / 0) (#66)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:25:51 PM EST
    Obama chaired a Senate subcommitte that rejected Bush's nomination of one of the swift boat financiers to be U.S. Ambassasor (to some country.)

    Those must have been the only hearings that committee had since they didn't have any on things like, you know, Afghanistan.

    Parent

    Wow--you recycle an old Hillary talking (none / 0) (#69)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:27:22 PM EST
    point.  Very impressive.....and true to form.  You prove my point....

    Parent
    ooh snap! (none / 0) (#73)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:32:29 PM EST
    How many hearing did he hold concerning NATO?

    Waiting.....

    crickets.

    Since he missed more votes than anybody in the US Senate and was never around to do his job, color me once again unimpressed by your homage to the wonderfulness of Him.

    Parent

    You are missing the point (none / 0) (#81)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:51:32 PM EST
    You raise old arguments about Obama's experience....

    The issue being discussed was how Obama garnered support from Teddy.....My point was that it was not Teddy finding an empty vessel to control, but that Obama was quite active in seeking out Teddy's approval.....

    There was no conspiracy.....

    You raise the old talking points about Obama's foreign policy experience--which are quite moot now.....For Pete sake, Hillary is Secretary of State....One would think such arguments would whither by now.....

    The best critique of Obama's foreign policy comes from the Left, not an area that you seem to inhabit.  Since Obama's hawkishness most likely mirrors, if not emanates from, Hillary's, I think you will be hard pressed to criticize him on the merits.  I actually do have concerns about his going the Hillary rather than the Biden route in Afghanistan....but you don't seem all that concerned about actual liberal policy.....in any regard that I can tell.

    Parent

    Funny (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by cal1942 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:19:42 PM EST
    I thought the post was about the utter senselessness of Obama and the Senate Democrats regarding extension of the Bush tax cuts.

    So senseless that it's hard to understand.

    Parent

    tax cut expiration - who's the adult senator here? (none / 0) (#149)
    by ricardo on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 05:35:27 PM EST
    Which Democratic senator has the wisdom/cojones to demand an end to the Bush give-away to our emerging American oligarchy?

    I remember Sheldon Whitehouse back in the day...well-informed, intelligent, funny, articulate - maybe he understands what's at stake and will take the hit for his place in history.  This is not Sheldon Whitehouse PAC astroturf - I'm simply thinking the rest of Congress is too uninformed and craven to think beyond the short term...

    I'm hoping Sheldon could put any immediate careerist ambitions on the back burner and do the right thing (besides Rhode Island is so small he can personally statewide meet with every constituent to explain his vote...LOL).  When he's vindicated in the next couple years - when our financial house starts to be put back in order (i.e. when capital is freed to flow to the real economy and not to the Wall Street casino) maybe then he could resume his political career.

    There's gotta be someone - anybody else have any ideas?

    Parent

    They're stupid (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by BobTinKY on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 08:24:26 AM EST
    I do not say this lightly.  I made a mistake supporting this guy, one I will not make again.

    Incompetent. (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by masslib on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 08:29:34 AM EST
    It was clear as a bell when they proposed that tax heavy, ineffective stimulus.

    Clearer still when they refused (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 08:35:21 AM EST
    to pursue a jobs and infrastructure program.

    That's just mind blowing really.

    Used to be that one of the cornerstones of politics 101 was keeping people in jobs.

    Now it seems people think that keeping financiers flush with cash is their only priority.

    Parent

    Yup, that was my real awakening (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by ruffian on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:32:55 PM EST
    after pushing 'snooze' on the other alarms. These guys are very very wrong. Hope they enjoy their one term in office.

    Parent
    Maybe thats the plan.. (none / 0) (#92)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:24:05 PM EST
    cash in all them favors after 4 years instead of 8...need time to spend and enjoy before the big collapse, another 4 years in "public service" might be cuttin' it too close.

    Parent
    Heh, heh ... (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Yman on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 08:47:19 AM EST
    ... which merely requires Obama's resolve...

    ... heh, heh ...

    well (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:13:11 AM EST
    I have no idea what Obama and the Dems are thinking on these issues. Either they are this stupid or this incompetent.

    I think the two have proven to not be mutually exclusive.

    it is only possible to understand it this way.  
    the republicans have their bluff in on Obama.  for the next two years it seems we are going to be treated to one loooooong episode of DC High where the republicans take his lunch money, give him wedgies, put dead animals in his locker and play keep away with his pocket protector.  as he cluelessly jibbers on about bipartisanship.

    it is going to be a very long two years.
    I may have to stop watching cable news again as I did after Bush won.


    You (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:49:56 AM EST
    hit it on the money. And he'll keep enabling them with the bipartisan talk.

    Parent
    starting to wonder if (none / 0) (#19)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:55:07 AM EST
    for example SNL will start doing with him what the used to do a generation ago, actual satire.  with him as the target.

    and others.  will this stuff mean that he finally can be a target for the usual shooters instead of being some kind of big eared sacred cow.

    Parent

    Urkel? (none / 0) (#9)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:17:22 AM EST
    And then he can go on TV and say, "Did I do that?"

    Parent
    I already stopped watching (none / 0) (#10)
    by BobTinKY on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:18:23 AM EST
    and the four years that follow the next, very long two?  Unimaginably horrific.  And after that?  At best we might have someone in power who is actually committed to righting the ineveitable catastrophic collapase, but even that that will take time.

    Krugman's lost decade might well prove to have been optimistic.

    Parent

    on a brighter note . . . (none / 0) (#13)
    by BobTinKY on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:20:25 AM EST
    err, well

    anyone?

    Parent

    I got (none / 0) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:32:57 AM EST
    nothin

    Parent
    Happy Holidays? :) Can't come up with more (none / 0) (#17)
    by republicratitarian on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:36:57 AM EST
    The bright side (none / 0) (#20)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 10:19:15 AM EST
    is that some people always gets richer off these fiascos.  Maybe it'll be you and me ;-).

    A girl can dream....

    Parent

    Well, when W was elected, did you (none / 0) (#50)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:57:28 PM EST
    buy oil stocks?

    Me neither.

    Dumb, huh?

    Parent

    In the imaginary world in which I (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Anne on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 10:23:26 AM EST
    want to live, I picture Barack Obama standing before the media, or with the Congressional leaders from both parties, with the media looking on, and he proceeds to say something like this:

    "Let me see if I understand the Republicans' position...we can't extend unemployment benefits to Americans struggling to find jobs, feed their families and pay the rent or the mortgage, because that would add to the deficit, but we absolutely, positively, must extend the Bush tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans even though doing so will add $700 billion dollars to that same deficit.  Do I have that right?  Do I understand that it won't be enough that those making over $250,000 a year will get the benefit of the tax cuts up to that $250,000 level, they have to have it all, and that Republicans are willing to refuse to extend unemployment benefits and address other important matters unless they do? [stops talking...slowly looks around the room...lets the silence speak, until he says...]  Wow.  Just...wow."

    It's nice in my imaginary world, isn't it?  Because this simple, most basic connection will never be voiced by this president.


    And what we're seeing (none / 0) (#128)
    by cal1942 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:48:43 PM EST
    is the first post 19th century Democratic President to vie for the bottom quarter cesspool of US Presidents.  

    When it comes to Presidents this nation is on a terrible losing streak.

    Parent

    Fiddling while Rome burns (5.00 / 4) (#24)
    by BobTinKY on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 10:45:09 AM EST
    that is what OBama's near single minded focus on process, bipartisanship and civility amounts to.

    Richard Wolffe on MSNBC (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:24:50 PM EST
    last night said that Obama and his team have decided to go after Independents.  

    It is a designed strategy that they are deploying.

    I give that account a lot of credence as Wolffe has had a lot access to Obama (to write his books.)

    sort of like (none / 0) (#110)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:23:25 PM EST
    a dog chasing cars?

    Parent
    The desirability of the approach (none / 0) (#130)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:55:52 PM EST
    aside, it is a conscious decision they have made....

    As I said yesterday, Obama will find a way to get re-elected....Not sure what that will mean for liberals.

    He could go the base route--like Rove and Bush--and win that way too.  I think that is a better route because I think it is better policy that will yield better results, leading to electoral victory.

    Obama and his team have decided on a different path....

    It does go back to the "no blue states, no red states" speech.

    Parent

    But check out this article (none / 0) (#150)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 07:15:17 PM EST
    on Wikipedia:

    Political analysts in October 2010 predicted sweeping Republican gains this election, but despite a reported "enthusiasm gap" between likely Republican and Democratic voters,[6] turnout increased relative to the last U.S. midterm elections without any significant shift in voters' political identification.[7] The swaying views of self-declared independent voters, however, were largely responsible for the shift from Democratic to Republican gains.[8]
     Emphasis Added.

    Whether or not there is a flaw in this analysis, it is clearly what Obama and his team see.  Obama is moving to the Center....That is what he is doing.

    Liberals and progressives would do well to focus on securing 41 votes in the Senate to prevent changes to Social Security and Medicare.

    Parent

    The footnote to (none / 0) (#151)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 07:17:48 PM EST
    Independents swaying the election is from Fox News....

    How did that get into this article?

    Parent

    New Repbulic footnoted (none / 0) (#152)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 07:25:20 PM EST
    article says this:

    We get more significant results when we examine the choices Independents made. Although their share of the electorate was virtually unchanged from 2006, their behavior was very different. In 2006, Democrats received 57 percent of the Independent vote, versus only 39 percent for Republicans. In 2010 this margin was reversed: 55 percent Republican, 39 percent Democratic. If Independents had split their vote between the parties this year the way they did in 2006, the Republicans share would have been 4.7 percent lower--a huge difference.

    And this:

     

    So the 2010 electorate does not represent a disproportional mobilization of conservatives: If the 2010 electorate had perfectly reflected the voting-age population, it would actually have been a bit more conservative and less moderate than was the population that showed up at the polls

    But that is the TNR.....Is there a liberal analysis anywhere?

    Parent

    Fantastic (none / 0) (#123)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:43:14 PM EST
    Since they had them in the first place and lost them in droves this year.

    Great political instincts.

    Parent

    It's a helluva plan (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by cal1942 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:06:46 PM EST
    Attempt to get back what you're not going to get back by supporting awful public policy while insuring that the base stays home as they did in the mid-terms.

    Give that man an RG Dun.

    Parent

    I would be interested in your view of the (none / 0) (#131)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:57:23 PM EST
    tax debate....I know you don't like Obama, but what is your view on what tax cuts, if any, should be extended?

    Parent
    I think (none / 0) (#140)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:21:55 PM EST
    The tax cuts for the middle class should be extended, if only as a measure of goodwill to the middle class (and more important, politically, independents and liberals alike are on board with this move).

    That being said, this whole argument about "tax cuts" is going to come back and bite someone because what people don't realize is they are not getting a tax cut.  All else remaining equal, they will either a) stay the same, or b) get a tax increase.

    What I think will actually happen is that the Dems and the administration will cave and all tax cuts will be extended. This will be like the health care bill - the general public will have been exposed to allt he petty arguing and yelling on cable news, the media pumping it up as a "showdown", and in the end, it will be basically for nothing.

    Parent

    Obama and the Dems are passing (none / 0) (#8)
    by MO Blue on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:17:22 AM EST
    the legislation required to  shore up their base to ensure lucrative future money making and employment opportunities. Example of invest now for rewards in the future:

    Citigroup Inc., recovering from its $45 billion bailout in 2008, is in advanced talks to hire former White House Budget Director Peter Orszag, people with knowledge of the matter said.

    Orszag, 41, may take a job in the New York-based firm's investment-banking division, the people said, declining to be identified because the discussions are private. An announcement may come as early as today, one of the people said. digby

    Added benefit, their additional wealth will be taxed at a lower rate.  

    Wasn't there something about...? (none / 0) (#11)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:18:52 AM EST
    An EO or directive that said anyone that worked in the administration couldn't take a job with an industry lobbying (or whatever) for a period of time after they left the government?

    Parent
    A position in "investment banking" (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:07:32 AM EST
    wouldn't, technically, be a lobbyist position. Obviously, there's no directive that former Admin employees have to remain unemployed altogether-that would defeat the purpose of their sucking up to corporations during their time as "public servants".

    Parent
    I guess it depends (none / 0) (#27)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:15:16 AM EST
    On what type of job within the investment banking division he gets.  Of course, he will be able to use his contacts to um, "help" his firm and clients without actually "lobbying".

    From MSNBC on January 21, 2009:

    The new rules also stipulate that anyone who leaves his administration cannot try to influence former friends and colleagues for at least two years.

    When did Orzag leave?

    Parent

    He left (none / 0) (#30)
    by lilburro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:21:06 AM EST
    in July of this year.

    Parent
    My math may be fuzzy (none / 0) (#31)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:22:29 AM EST
    But that's less than two years.

    Parent
    He's not a lobbyist (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by waldenpond on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:33:49 AM EST
    He's going to work for Citi in their finance/banking division.  He's is not going to work at a lobbying firm as a registered lobbyist.  Only the small fish do that.

    The powerful and monies aren't required to register, they are invited to private trips on Air Force One to India.

    Parent

    Does not apply. Orszag has (none / 0) (#153)
    by KeysDan on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 07:27:16 PM EST
    already influenced his former colleagues. His "save social security" by cutting benefits is a part of the Cat Food Commission; the health care reform has incorporated his much touted (and wrongly/misinterpreted ) Dartmouth Atlas "less care is better care", and his op-ed in the NYT (Sept 8, 2010) laying the foundations for extension of all Bush tax cuts, but just for two years and end them altogether (likely to happen in an election year).  So this about reaping rewards for previous services rendered.

    Parent
    If there was, I'm sure that it comes (none / 0) (#14)
    by MO Blue on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:22:44 AM EST
    with a waiver option.  Everyone gets one the minute a job becomes available. :-)

    Parent
    Obama thinks Republicans win elections (none / 0) (#12)
    by kempis on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:19:47 AM EST
    So he's trying to hitch his wagon to the GOP's. He's did so to a large extent even before the midterms.

    Obama's main value is his own political success, to hell with good policy--if by good we mean the greater good.

    I think he's betting that he can win in 2012 by being even more GOP lite. If that is the case, I may actually refuse to vote for a Democratic presidential candidate for the first time in my adult life.

    I've had it.

    They should've addressed (none / 0) (#15)
    by lilburro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 09:31:14 AM EST
    this sh*t before the election.  I still don't understand why they didn't.

    My only hope is that the Obama team will realize they need a new strategy.  At some point.

    I have said it before, the best thing that could (none / 0) (#21)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 10:22:25 AM EST
    happen is that the Repubs get so stubborn on the tax cuts for everyone including the rich that somehow it all gets botched and we stumble by accident into the right policy, which is doing nothing and returning to the Clinton tax structure.

    If it happens, it would be due to nothing other than luck.

    If that happens (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by CoralGables on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:59:46 AM EST
    people here will still scream. Very few other than you and I want all of them to expire.

    Parent
    As a pure Keynesian, I want (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:37:58 PM EST
    them to expire, but not yet.....

    The best possible outcome is to decouple the tax cuts for the wealthy from those for everyone else, permanently extend the middle class tax cuts, and extend for two years the tax cut for the wealthy.  That is the ideal policy outcome....

    You contract government spending and increase taxes to counteract inflation--we are not there yet.  (That method would, in an ideal world, control inflation through fiscal, not monetary policy, and avoid raising interest rates to stop inflation.)  And, yes, you do not raise taxes in a recession.....but can do so when the economy rebounds.  Bill's tax hike occurred in 1993 after the recession of the early 90s had ended.  

    Parent

    I respectfully disagree with you fellow (none / 0) (#101)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:01:09 PM EST
    Keynesian.  The best possible outcome is to let them all expire.  First, we are not in a recession, have not been for a while.  We are in a jobless recovery (a weak, pitiful, jobless recovery). Jobless recoveries are always bad, but when the U6 unemployment is over 15%, it is horrible.  But, as weak as it is, we have had GDP growth and are not in a recession.  We need more GDP growth to get job growth and I understand there is an economic impact to tax increases, but I do not think returning to the Clinton tax structure will impact it that much.  Second, we would have to borrow another $5 trillion from our children and grandchildren to finance them and it assumes the required sources to finance such yawning deficits (int. bond markets) are not equally as fragile as the US economy is right now.

    Parent
    Maybe so, but I'm still squeemish (none / 0) (#106)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:12:56 PM EST
    about a middle class tax hike with consumer spending so weak.....

    But, politically, I'd let them all expire.  Eff 'em.  They'll blink first, and if not, you might be right about taxes not making a difference at this point.  Let's try it and see.....

    Then again, my support for Obama has not been because I am like him with respect to aspiring to bring people together....I have been temporarily banished at times when other people in the room want to work out a deal.....

    Parent

    He should hire you then. (none / 0) (#116)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:28:59 PM EST
    Dealmaking should be out the window by now.

    The only way to deal with Repubs is the way Clinton did, expose them and then beat them.

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#133)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:59:41 PM EST
    Republicans are inherently authoritarian (none / 0) (#136)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:10:22 PM EST
    Thus, they respond to force, not reason.  Beat them, and they will acknowledge you....Bill knew this.....

    Unfortunately, too many liberals (bless their Enlightenment hearts) think that if they cite the right facts, and make the right arguments, the other side can be persuaded.  Nonsense.  So Liberals/Progressives play in the idea sandbox, while Republicans play the emotions sandbox....Guess who gets sand kicked in their face?

    You can see this dynamic start to set in with respect to gay rights....Many Republicans are backing away from overtly homophobic statements....At some point, it would not be surprising to see Republicans say they were always for gay rights, just as they were always for Civil Rights and supported MLK....

    Republicans will join the victors....

    Republicans can respond well to shaming.  It worked on Civil Rights.  It can work on other areas too.  Not reason.  But emotional shaming.....

    Catsup for lunch.  Throwing Grandma in the snow.  Throwing away the country because of millionaires.....The opening is there....

    Parent

    Agreed. (none / 0) (#127)
    by masslib on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:47:23 PM EST
    Let 'em expire.  They were designed to expire and there is no excuse for extending tax cuts after the first 250k in income whatsoever.  

    Parent
    Bingo (none / 0) (#112)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:25:37 PM EST
    Thank you.

    I don't know why people keep forgetting that little matter of the state of the economy when the Clinton tax structure was put into effect as opposed to the state of the economy now.

    Parent

    Wha? Those tax cuts for the wealthy (none / 0) (#125)
    by masslib on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:46:00 PM EST
    are non-stimulative.  You are forking over money to the people who will hoard it and getting nothing in return.  

    Parent
    ^^This^^ (none / 0) (#134)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:59:54 PM EST
    I have no idea who this (none / 0) (#157)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:07:40 PM EST
    could possibly be addressed to.  Certainly not me because I've NEVER< NOT ONCE, advocated for tax cuts for the wealthy.  To the contrary, I think we should go back to the nearly punitive 90 percent top marginal rates we had when I was growing up.

    So go screech at somebody else, please.

    Parent

    Are you kidding me? (none / 0) (#124)
    by masslib on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:44:23 PM EST
    That's your best outcome.  Please.  There is no need to "decouple".  That's crap.  All the tax cuts are set to expire.  Let 'em.  And, then extend tax cuts for the first 250k in income(don't fool yourself, the wealthy benefit most from those as well) is you want to.  But extending the tax cuts exclusively for the wealthy is unconscionable.  

    Parent
    I am not sure you read his post correctly. (none / 0) (#132)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:59:41 PM EST
    He said the best policy outcome (none / 0) (#138)
    by masslib on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:12:07 PM EST
    would be to extend the tax cuts for income over 250k for the next two years as a method to decouple.  That is not hardly the best policy outcome.

    Parent
    Well, the way that would work (none / 0) (#142)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:32:09 PM EST
    is the middle class tax cut would be permanenetly extended, and so would not come up again......

    A two year temporary extension of the tax cuts for the wealthy would come up for reconsideration by themselves without the ability to hold the middle class tax cuts hostage.  They could never get them, or it would be very difficult, to get them renewed for the wealthy only.  Republicans know this and for that reason oppose it.  They are not stupid, just crass and heartless.

    The economic reason is that tax increases on the whole take money out of the economy, and you don't want to do that during a recession--according to a standard Keynesian approach.  I agree with that.

    What Buckeye says, and not without reason, is that we are no longer in a recession (technically), so a tax increase now is okay.  I still think we are in deep doodoo because of low consumer spending. I'd rather postpone a tax hike than risk a another hiccup in the recovery--which may be inevitable anyway if we face another round of foreclosures....Sure, low income people would spend more as a percentage than rich people.  But rich people are consumers too and would spend some of it.

    But Buckeye could be right and a tax hike could make no difference right now.  That is what happened when Bill's tax hikes went into effect.

    As a political matter, I would let them all expire--in order to beat the Republicans.....I was talking about an ideal world from an economic point of view.....Politically, decoupling the tax cuts for the wealthy, even if they are temporarily extended, would be huge....      

    Parent

    Um, you could allow all the tax cuts (none / 0) (#143)
    by masslib on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:37:17 PM EST
    to expire and then if justified pass new tax cuts for the first 250k in income.  The best thing about the Bush tax cuts was no one had to lift a finger to end them.  Decoupling is political rhetoric for selling a bad policy.  

    These tax cuts should not be made permanent at any rate.  They never represented good tax policy.  I'll side with Brad Delong and Diane Lim on this one.

    Parent

    Maybe, but being a deficit hawk (none / 0) (#145)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:49:06 PM EST
    right now could ground the economy.  

    If the middle class gets hit with a tax increase right now, consumer spending could take a dive.....

    Not what we need....

    Parent

    Deficit hawk???? (none / 0) (#146)
    by masslib on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:59:12 PM EST
    That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.  Truly hysterical.

    Parent
    The article you link to (none / 0) (#147)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 05:02:39 PM EST
    talks about the national debt and deficits--and how extending the tax cuts makes them worse....

    Parent
    It does.... (none / 0) (#148)
    by masslib on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 05:06:51 PM EST
    It's horrible tax policy in that it doesn't do what it promises to do, ie raise revenue.  The article also says we need more short term stimulus.  That's not being a "deficit hawk".  It's having an understanding of what is good and what is poor tax policy.

    Parent
    BTD does as well. (none / 0) (#39)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:06:16 PM EST
    Count me in. n/t (none / 0) (#51)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:58:57 PM EST
    Let all the Bush tax cuts expire. (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by KeysDan on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:10:22 PM EST
    The original opposition of some economists to the tax cuts proposed by President Bush included arguments that the cuts would not stimulate jobs and growth in the near term; they were not revenue neutral and would add to the deficits; and they would reduce the long-term capacity to finance Medicare, Social Security and provide for investments in schools, health, basic research and infrastructure.

    It seems to me that these arguments remain cogent, if not more so for these economic times. Yes, the argument is made that this is not the time to "raise" taxes (really, the cuts we enjoyed are expiring), but the recession's impact is uneven and the focus needs to be on job creation and benefits for the unemployed.

    The Cat Food Commission is calling for nearly $4 trillion in reductions over ten years, approximately the same amount that will be added to the debt by extending all the tax cuts.  The Cat Food Commission's draconian thinking will do more to stymie growth while reducing or eliminating needed safety nets and benefits, than letting the Bush tax cuts expire for everyone. Specific and targeted legislation for jobs along with stimulus spending on infrastructure and education makes a lot more sense.

    Parent

    so do I (none / 0) (#90)
    by sj on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:21:30 PM EST
    I think the GOP wants all of them to expire (none / 0) (#54)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    they would kill democrats with that


    Parent
    I think (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by CST on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:04:15 PM EST
    that's exactly why the House Dems are voting on this today.

    Hoyer: "This does, however, give every member the opportunity to express their view [that] we do not want, particularly at this time of economic growth, but slow growth, to have the middle income folks have [a tax] increase."

    Smart, if the have the guts to follow through.

    Parent

    Could be (none / 0) (#57)
    by ruffian on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:05:55 PM EST
    Because lord knows the Dems can't defend even the right policy.

    Parent
    exactly (none / 0) (#59)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:13:35 PM EST
    notice I didnt say they "should be able to kill the democrats with this".  
    they simply will.


    Parent
    more importantly (none / 0) (#60)
    by CST on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:13:36 PM EST
    who gives a $hit?

    We've got 23 months until the next election.  If now is not the time to take your lumps... when is?

    Parent

    was I (none / 0) (#61)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:16:20 PM EST
    justifying it?  no.  simply stating what I believe to be a fact.

    Parent
    i know (none / 0) (#63)
    by CST on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:19:47 PM EST
    just ranting

    Parent
    Take your lumps now, get the policy right (none / 0) (#72)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:32:13 PM EST
    in the long term.  A win win.

    Obama should just let them all expire.

    Parent

    Dems think they will which is why they are (none / 0) (#68)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:27:03 PM EST
    wimping out.  But if the rates expire and we replicate the Clinton tax structure, that would be good policy.  It would work out better for the Dems in the long run.  Imagine if Obama gets reelected, we have a recovery and get back to full employment with the higher tax rates.  We will once again have a surplus when we need it the most.  That would be great for Dems.

    Parent
    Heh, so Obama's 'historic' presdidency could be (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by nycstray on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:44:03 PM EST
    deemed successful based on the Clinton tax structure?

    Parent
    Why not? (none / 0) (#83)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:54:27 PM EST
    Irony, darlin', irony ;) (none / 0) (#87)
    by nycstray on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 02:07:37 PM EST
    lighten up . . .  :)

    Parent
    Somtimes the right kind of change is something (none / 0) (#102)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:02:34 PM EST
    new...sometimes it is restoration.

    Parent
    that may be (none / 0) (#74)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:35:06 PM EST
    but they would kill the democrats with this.

    Parent
    A respectful wake up call, (none / 0) (#103)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:04:31 PM EST
    they are killing them now.  The repubs just won the midterms by a margin not seen by that party since the 1930s.  Why?  Timidity in the face of relentless Repub opposition.

    How about Obama try something new?  Like take an issue where he has the wind in his back and just beat the living piss out them with it.  Might work, nothing else is right now.

    Parent

    this would be called (none / 0) (#114)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:27:06 PM EST
    preaching to the choir

    Parent
    Obama is a conservative (none / 0) (#118)
    by waldenpond on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:33:52 PM EST
    Good grief, in yet another interview Obama has labeled himself a conservative by calling himself a blue dog dem.

    The Repubs are his base not his opposition.

    Parent

    When did Obama call himself a Blue Dog Dem? (none / 0) (#126)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:47:08 PM EST
    Matt Bai.... (none / 0) (#129)
    by masslib on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 03:50:11 PM EST
    New York Times.

    LINK

    Parent

    and this... (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by waldenpond on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:11:09 PM EST
    "I can't tell you how many foreign leaders, who are heads of centre-right governments, say to me 'I don't understand why people would call you socialist, in my country you would be considered a conservative'," Mr Obama told CNN.

    Gee, I think people believe it's my personal opinion when I say he's a conservative when it's his personal definition.

    Parent

    Just noise (none / 0) (#144)
    by MKS on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 04:44:42 PM EST
    Remember "the Era of Big Government is over?"

    The key is what actually happens....

    And, unfortunately the dye is already cast:  a three extension on all tax cuts....

    This could be fixed in three years....but in the meantime we have three more years of bad tax policy.....The worst part, however, is not that--but that the argument can be won today, so there is no need to wait three years....when it will probably be a more difficult fight.

    Parent

    I'm with you (none / 0) (#43)
    by ruffian on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:30:39 PM EST
    But unfortunately the Dems can't even do nothing right.

    I predict all the tax cuts get extended 3 yrs. No one wants to do this again in the next election year. Cowards all.

    Parent

    Well, I hate to admit it (none / 0) (#56)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:05:34 PM EST
    but, stumbling or not, into returning to the Clinton tax levels may be more than good policy in the long run.

    Parent
    You want the deficit to diappear? (none / 0) (#70)
    by Buckeye on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:28:09 PM EST
    An economy with full employment coupled with the Clinton tax structure.  If the dems pull that off, they will win this in the long run.

    Parent
    First, they would have to know and (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Anne on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:39:39 PM EST
    believe that it's good policy, and I don't have much confidence that they do because this all seems to be more about short-term politics than anything else - and they can't even get that one right,

    In fact, I suspect that if the cuts were to be allowed to expire, it wouldn't deter for more than a minute the efforts to "fix" Social Security, for example, or take the Simpson-Bowles report's "suggestions" very much to heart.

    Standing in the chairmans's batter's box in the House Budget committee is the one-and-only Paul Ryan, whom Obama regards as having some really good ideas...I imagine we'll be seeing a lot of the Simpson-Bowles ideas in the coming months - and I also imagine Dems will continue to flail before shrugging their shoulders in regret about "the tough choices they had to make."

    I'm not sure at this point that Dems would know good policy if it jumped up and bit them on their collective a$$.

    Parent

    If you were running for reelection (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:20:13 AM EST
    in 2012 as a Democrat, you'd, as always, need a campaign chest stuffed w/cash.  Who's got the cash now?  Not the middle class.

    There's still a middle class? (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Anne on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 11:58:33 AM EST
    Huh.

    I was thinking we're getting close to only having two classes: the Elites and the Great Unwashed; seems like much of the policy being promoted is in furtherance of that result.

    At some point, I think they just need to dispense with the charade and each month the Congress and the White House can carry the name of whatever corporate sponsor is willing to pony up (hey - there's the pony!) the most cash: "The Bank of America White House," "The Goldman Sachs Congress of the United States."  

    And why not let them pay for the privilege of Senators and Representatives having to carry the names of their largest contributors?  Why shouldn't we know that someone is "the Wellpoint Senator from ____?"

    Put 'em in jumpsuits like the NASCAR drivers wear - I'd love to see these people decked out in corporate logos, wouldn't you?  I mean, if you were Citigroup or United Health Care, wouldn't you pay more to have your logo on the Senator's front than on his or her behind?

    Parent

    I like it. Thinking outside the box. (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 12:44:58 PM EST
    Let's add those flip ads we see at the ballpark. Brighten up the halls of Congress.  One minute you see:  Toyota.  Next time you look:  Bank of America.

    Parent
    Well, we used to have (none / 0) (#53)
    by oldpro on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:01:54 PM EST
    "the senator from Boeing" and he was damn proud of it!

    Parent
    lol!~ (none / 0) (#58)
    by nycstray on Thu Dec 02, 2010 at 01:11:35 PM EST