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Unemployment Hits 9.7%

NYTimes:

The unemployment rate, which dipped in July as Americans left the work force and stopped looking for jobs, resumed its climb last month, rising to 9.7 percent from 9.4 percent, the Labor Department reported on Friday in its monthly snapshot of the job market.

. . . “High unemployment rates are going to be with us for quite a while,” Michael Feroli, an economist at JPMorgan Chase, said. “It’s going to be a long, long time before we see 6 percent or 7 percent unemployment.”

How's that recovery working out for you? Aren't you glad President Snowe replaced 80 billion dollars of stimulus spending with tax cuts?

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    Republican insanity (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by MO Blue on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:27:47 AM EST
    Back in April, Florida's legislative Republicans refused to accept nearly $444 million in federal funding for the state's unemployment system - money that would have shored up the unemployment trust fund at a crucial time and helped prevent a business tax hike in the middle of the recession.

    This week, the Republicans' stubbornness came home to roost as Florida's unemployment trust fund officially went broke. For now, the state will be forced to borrow hundreds of millions of dollars from the federal government to keep the system running, but just as we warned in April, paying back that money will cause heavy tax hikes on Florida businesses: DLCC

    Last time I looked, Florida's unemployment was above the national average. Hope this current example of Republican insanity comes home to roost big time during the next election.


    money with strings (none / 0) (#138)
    by diogenes on Sat Sep 05, 2009 at 11:46:44 AM EST
    The federal unemployment money came with costly and long-term strings attached in terms of state's changing long-term unemployment law.

    Parent
    On the brightside... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:37:14 AM EST
    bank robbery appears to be a growth sector, rising in parallel to the employment numbers.

    Better than giving up anyway...never give up.

    bank robbery always seems to grow (none / 0) (#10)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:47:05 AM EST
    in tough economic times. And the robbers are often seen as heroes by the populace.

    Parent
    Thats how I see 'em... (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:04:04 AM EST
    Heroes of a sort, as long as the are non-violent, and especially when they got style.

    There's a guy by me probably trying to get the ink off him and his ride right now...I'm rooting for him.

    SOME IS RICH, AND SOME IS POOR
    THAT'S THE WAY THE WORLD IS
    BUT I DON'T BELIEVE IN LYING BACK
    SAYlN' HOW BAD YOUR LUCK IS
    - The Clash


    Parent
    Robbery by definition is an act of violence (none / 0) (#101)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:48:53 AM EST
    It is larceny by force or immediate theat of force.

    It is true there is a long history of rogue heros and picaresque heros. We have long glorified robbers and bandits whether Robin of Locksly, various pirates of the Spanish Main, Butch and the Sundance Kid, Pretty Boy Floyd, etc. But the truth is, robbery is an act of violence.

    Parent

    The health care system in america (none / 0) (#106)
    by The Last Whimzy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:57:27 AM EST
    Is an act of violence

    Parent
    A rigged market... (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 01:39:19 PM EST
    is an act of violence too then, if we're gonna be so liberal with the term:)

    Parent
    A bankrobber (none / 0) (#122)
    by The Last Whimzy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 02:30:34 PM EST
    Is just a fund manager without the corner office.

    Parent
    By the way (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:40:19 AM EST
    I hope you realize that all those jobs programs in the Great Depression did not involve pulling people away from "their previous wage request."

    I don't buy your definition of "creating wealth" because in the private sector people talk about businesses creating wealth all the time.  Nobody says "GM doesn't create wealth, it's just the individual autoworkers who create wealth."  To make "the government can't create wealth" a true statement you have to adopt nonsensical definitions.

    Ofcourse (none / 0) (#64)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:43:35 AM EST
    it's the people actually making things that create the wealth.  GM (until recently) was unlike the government in that the funds used to direct the wealth being created by individuals from resources was gathered voluntarily from customers.

    Parent
    Okay (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:46:44 AM EST
    well then the private sector cannot create wealth either.  Individual laborers create wealth.  Of course, he can create wealth whether he works for a private employer or for the government, right?

    Parent
    Correct (none / 0) (#72)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:02:00 AM EST
    so the question becomes is force the best means to allocate wealth.  

    One argument in favor of voluntarism is that the system is much more easily maintained.  If I open a private firm that sells candy, I'll do everything I can to make sure people want my candy at a price that keeps me profitable.  If I find that people want to buy and buy I can take that voluntary allocation of personal wealth as a signal that people really do want my candy.  Using this I can make decisions to go off and invest in stores/factories.  

    If I'm a struggling candy store operator and a government official decides to save the candy industry by paying 50% of all candy prices with taxpayer money, then I will begin to rely on that 50% of coerced money.  I may go and build more factories as candy is selling well but in order for me to not default on the financing I took out for the factories/stores the government must maintain its 50% candy subsidization policy.  Overtime as deficits grow, taxpayers or foreign debt holders will call for a leaner budget.  When the government finally removes the subsidy, I default on my financing and yadda yadda.  

    It's the same principal with lower interest rates.  Dropping from 5 to 2 doesn't increase wealth but reallocates resources from the future to the present by lowering the cost of borrowing.  

    Parent

    Sure (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:10:37 AM EST
    we can say that government merely serves to distort the incentives in a perfectly functioning market.  But sometimes we have a very dysfunctional market.  I believe government can play an important role in dealing with market failures, externalities, problems of that sort.

    Parent
    You Keynsian you! (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:31:25 AM EST
    I think I resemble that remark also, (none / 0) (#96)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:35:54 AM EST
    BTD. Glad to be amongst folks like you and Steve M.

    Parent
    Might as well (none / 0) (#98)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:37:30 AM EST
    do this quick read, since you like him so much.

    Parent
    I find it very unsurprising that such a work (none / 0) (#111)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:14:55 PM EST
    would exist on the Mises page.

    Parent
    They do a great deal (none / 0) (#112)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:20:46 PM EST
    to address the misconceptions of keynes' "model".  I can't believe that people would ever consider someone who purposely aggregates data that is available in detailed form in order to apply a mathematical model an honest or scientific individual.  

    Parent
    Since my bachelor's and master's (none / 0) (#114)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:28:17 PM EST
    came from Auburn, and my econ classes at both levels were from Austrian economists, my views are more jaded.

    As one of the professors in the Mises Institute said, "If you accept my assumptions, you'll have to accept my conclusions."

    I don't accept the Austrian's assumptions, and I think that works such as the link are disingenuous.

    Parent

    You're challenging (none / 0) (#116)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:35:50 PM EST
    the factual accuracy of the account of Keynes' life?  That's not really full of theory.  

    Parent
    I'm challenging the completeness, (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:45:47 PM EST
    the tone, and the direction. Also the assumptions being forwarded in the document. It is biased. Just as those who hold Keynes up as a superman are biased.

    Given the web site, and my knowledge of the Mises institute, I take this as a pro-Mises, pro-libertarian writing, that would not say a kind word about Keynes if it's at all possible. Heck, Friedman either.

    The Mises institute is biased. Just as a Keynes institute, if one exists, is biased. Making another macro theorist 'look bad' when compared to Mises is a given.

    Parent

    and Mises himself (none / 0) (#118)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:54:09 PM EST
    aggregating from individuals with his methodological individualism? Sorry, can't accept that either.

    No Galt fan in my house, for that matter.

    Parent

    You've got to be kidding... (none / 0) (#119)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:56:00 PM EST
    aggregating industrial earnings statistics to come up with an exact number for a stimulus package is not at all similar.

    Parent
    the Austrian followers (none / 0) (#120)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 01:09:20 PM EST
    are guilty of the same issues they decry others for.

    It's all about assumptions. Accept them, you accept the conclusions. whether Keynsian, Austrian, Friedman-influenced (Friedmanian just looked too much like an Armenian surname, not implying a follower of Friedman).

    I don't accept the premises of Mises. I don't accept the article at face value for aforementioned reasons. Additionally I have working knowledge and history with the Mises Institute and those who work there.

    Furthermore, I am not a libertarian.

    No problem, I don't accept your assumptions, though. you obviously don't accept Keynes'. That's okay. We may as well move on because you aren't going to convince me.

    Parent

    Can you link me to (none / 0) (#123)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 03:02:08 PM EST
    a criticism that defines the assumptions to which you object?  I'm no student of the Austrian school, I just appreciate the context they lend for people to understand the individual Keynes was...forget all that...let me know the invalid assumptions when you get a chance.  Thanks.

    Parent
    it'll take some digging... (none / 0) (#124)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 03:11:10 PM EST
    been more than a few years since grad school. I'll look, though. I'll try to answer when we meet up here again. Have a nice Labor Day weekend!

    Parent
    Here's a web site (none / 0) (#125)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 03:17:21 PM EST
    that critiques Mises and lists many more links:

    http://world.std.com/~mhuben/austrian.html

    sorry, I have how to hotlink correctly listed on my work computer, and
    I'm at home!

    Parent

    Thanks. (none / 0) (#126)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 03:39:55 PM EST
    I'm through the first three (actually had read the Krugman Slate article, you at least admit that's a total joke right? He doesn't even come close to identifying the business cycle theory).  

    ANYWAY, I'll read a few more later but was wondering - what's an invalid assumption they make?  You're criticizing one of their axioms correct?  

    One criticism which was interesting and that I've seen is that people would identify that low interest rates would not last forever and therefore plan against that.  Obviously this is not the case as most people frankly aren't aware of the theory but also the prisoners dilemma coupled with socialized losses.  Not to say you argued that.

    Parent

    Back up, there... the ascientific (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 03:48:43 PM EST
    aspect, the rejection of positivism, the scientific method, for apriorism is enough. Applying generalizations to the data is deductive, and that's a fundamental difference I have. Science versus-- in the case of the Austrian economists, something else.

    Parent
    Name one when you get a chance. (none / 0) (#128)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 03:51:40 PM EST
    Then you must reject Keynesianism, especially things like output gap calculations, right?

    Parent
    sorry, wrong question. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 03:54:42 PM EST
    Assumptions are what we're talking about. Assumptions in Austrian economics and why I reject them.

    you want me to reject Keynes? Give me a reason, not sound bites or Austrian quotes.:-0

    I quit, no more posts here for me. not because you're right, but, like the austrians, you're disengenuous. Have a good time, and a good labor day weekend.

    Parent

    If you want me to name an (none / 0) (#130)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 03:58:32 PM EST
    austrian economist who rejected positivism, Ludwig von Mises.

    Parent
    Like when enough people (none / 0) (#97)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:36:33 AM EST
    didn't have houses so we created Fannie?  Or when US citizens didn't voluntarily fund the war in Iraq?  When 9/11 harshed the economy's mellow and we lowered the interest rate?  Hurricane Katrina?

    Parent
    you ARE kidding right? (none / 0) (#132)
    by cawaltz on Sat Sep 05, 2009 at 05:19:26 AM EST
    You do realize one of the reasons the US governments first government failed was because its premise was basically just that? It couldn't collect taxes and as a result couldn't pay for defense, etc,etc.  A government without the ability to collect taxes, fees or whatnot was and would be ineffective just as it was in earlier history.

    Parent
    You ignored his point (none / 0) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:09:39 AM EST
    about lack of private sector employment.

    Parent
    which means the real rate is what? (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:21:52 AM EST
    let's also remember that, in this day and age of increasing technology, that simply CREATING jobs requires something: the desire to create them for their own sake.  But our economic paradigm is one of ghost stories and mysteriously migrating birds and offerings to the gods for their return, so i have little hope right now that we can do the magnanimous work necessary.

    twice that (none / 0) (#12)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:57:08 AM EST
    at least most likely.

    Parent
    at least 20 percent. (none / 0) (#13)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:58:37 AM EST
    discouraged workers, part time workers who want full time, people who have used up benefits... at least 20%, probably more.

    Parent
    we probably all know this here (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:01:25 AM EST
    but they stop counting you as unemployed after a year.  makes the number look better but it does nothing for the person who has been without a job for more than 12 months.


    Parent
    The weekly average hours is 33.1 (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by cawaltz on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:11:30 AM EST
    according to the article. Unless that number starts going up I would expect we aren't going to see alot of new hires.

    Parent
    Looks right. (none / 0) (#57)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:36:17 AM EST
    AMT fix! (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:25:49 AM EST


    It's not a coincidence IMO (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:27:31 AM EST
    that the President's favorables are collapsing.

    Parent
    well, (none / 0) (#5)
    by bocajeff on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:37:13 AM EST
    1. This stimulus plan wasn't a stimulus plan in that most of them money hasn't been spent.

    2.  Contrary to BTD, the European stimuli were much smaller and seem to be more effective right now (see France and UK). Blaming 80 billion out of 800 billion for the problems isn't correct.

    3. This is a credit and confidence problem and nothing is being done right now for businesses (other than banks) to give them the confidence to boost spending and open up lines of credit - thus they will either shed jobs or stop hiring.

    4. Cash for Clunkers is typical of governments response to problems - ineffective (car dealerships haven't even been close to being repaid money owed them), poorly targeted (rich people being able to used the program - Sen. Frist and Gov. Dean) and not working on the root problem (housing and credit).



    Europe has better automatic stabilizers (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:40:20 AM EST
    I would like to see what impact that has on consumer confidence.

    Parent
    A few things (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by CST on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:43:13 AM EST
    Comment # 2 - Europe never experienced the same type of economic problems we did, they have a built in safety net of "socialism" and most of the effects they felt were just echos of what happened here.

    Comment # 4 - ineffective???  tell that to the people who work in the auto industry.  Yes, it will take some time to get dealers the money, but they will get it.

    Parent

    My comment was specific to AMT (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:44:56 AM EST
    Which was an indefensible inclusion at the expense of for example,  funding of  state and local expenditures.

    On the larger point, there is no doubt the stimulus was too small.

    Are things better than if no stimulus? Duh. Is the stimulus the right policy? No. It was way too small.

    Parent

    No doubt? (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:23:41 AM EST
    There is much doubt that any stimulus could work no matter how big.  

    The government didn't have the money for that stimulus and it didn't have the money for a bigger one.  You simply can't borrow your way out of a recession and it's pretty lame excuse that Obama's terrible stimulus just wan't big enough.

    What would be an excuse is that this stimulus wasn't even a stimulus it was simply a big spending bill called a stimulus followed up by another huge spending bill that had nothing to do with the economy.

    The fact is the gov't, businesses and actual people rang up a huge credit card debt and the reality is this recession is exactly what we needed.  

    Obama made the mistake of believing he could fix something that took decades of bad fiscal policy to create and he will pay a heavy political price.

    He could have done us all a favor and leveled with us, not continued the disastrous bailout policy of Bush and the disastrous monetary policies of Clinton and Bush and said enough is enough.

    Instead he became Bush 2.0.  He cranked up the bailouts for Wall Street and the Auto Industry, pumped out a huge stimulus bill that hasn't even started yet, put out what he calls "Tax Cuts" which are really just tricky accounting (we're in agreement there) and put us on a road to record debt when we where already well on our way.

    He's economic decisions will cause us all more pain for years to come and this experiment with Keynesian theory will be a complete disaster and prolong the inevitable retraction of our economy for the next decade.

    Parent

    Only doubt for (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:32:53 AM EST
    those who doubt the sun rises in the East.

    Parent
    that would be (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:38:35 AM EST
    30-40%?

    Parent
    Dinosaurs roamed the Earth 6,000 years ago with (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by steviez314 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:41:59 AM EST
    humans.  There is no global warming.

    Yep, I'd say Copernicus is in trouble next.

    Parent

    Here is a good example of (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:56:00 AM EST
    an intelligent disagreement.

    Stevie and I disagree  I still disagree Stevie) that the Obama bank bailout approach was good policy.

    Stevie expressed his views intelligently and from a position of knowledge and facts.

    I disagreed with some of his factual assumption but especially with his view of the efficacy of the policy in terms of dealing with the systemic problems of our financial system.

    It is true that banks are doing better BUT the underlying problem of bad assets remains unresolved and a looming disaster imo.

    We still need a HOLC.

    Parent

    And in return, I certainly agree with you that (none / 0) (#38)
    by steviez314 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:07:23 AM EST
    it was stupid to count the AMT fix in the stimulus, especially since they would do it later anyway.

    If they needed to throw in a tax cut, they should have cut payroll taxes on the first $X of wages.

    Or just cut the taxes on anyone living in Maine, and spent the rest on stuff.

    Parent

    Zactly (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:10:15 AM EST
    Or bloggers on (none / 0) (#27)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:43:11 AM EST
    Huff Post

    You have an opinion (as do many others) that the stimulus wasn't big enough.  I have an opinion (as do many others) that no stimulus could or can work.

    My theory at least has some evidence in our current environment.  Mainly that we got a stimulus and it hasn't done jack.  

    You're theory is based on the economic theory that a stimulus two or three times as big would have worked.   The problem is then if you take the next step you have to give us something more.

    How big?
    When would it have worked?
    Can we afford even more debt?
    Do we trust a government to administer it properly?

    As the Huff Post link predicts so eloquently you cannot trust a few hundred people to spend 800 billion dollars effectively.  Even more importantly they aren't creating wealth, they are simply redistributing it less efficiently then we otherwise would.

    Frankly, how the he$$ can we trust them to spend more?

    Iregardless it's a moot point politically.  Biden went on TV just yesterday to say it's working and then booom.  The jobs report.

    Politically this arguement is over.

    Parent

    Idiotic (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:53:18 AM EST
    You can argue many things, but you can not intelligently say that government spending does not increase aggregate demand.

    That is just plain ignorant.

    You should make a DIFFERENT argument - the stimulative benefits of increased government spending is not worth whatever negative consequences you think that spending causes.

    That is your intelligent opposition to the policy.  Your objections are not serious because they deny the sun rises in the East, ergo, that increased government spending increases aggregate demand. That is just stupid.

    Parent

    Your letting your bias get the better of you (none / 0) (#36)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:58:53 AM EST
    The NYT's made that argument

    Government can't create wealth.  Period.  IMHO

    In theory it seems possible but it reality it doesn't happen.

    You can pretend that I'm in some minority and you are as right as the sun but it doesn't make it so.

    As you've said to me many times (and I respect that advice and have taken it to heart) stating an opinion over and over again doesn't make it fact.

    You have a well respected theory. I don't agree and many economists agree with me as well.

    Parent

    Government can't create wealth? (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by ruffian on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:09:31 AM EST
    Millions of us in the defense industry would beg to differ.

    Government spending is a good portion of the GDP. I'm not saying that the stimulus should have made it a huge majority of the GDP, but to say that government spending does not give people jobs and income is just wrong.

    Parent

    He's saying that the wealth (none / 0) (#48)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:18:24 AM EST
    is generated by the individual workers.  The statement "the government does not create wealth" typically refers to the reasoning that the government can only direct the type of wealth made and who receives it using seized funds.  

    Parent
    That is an absurd argument (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:23:32 AM EST
    The government spends money and the spending can be done in such a way that is job creating and stimulative.

    The classic example - the government can spend a trillion dollars to hire folks to dig holes and then fill them up.

    That would be terrible policy of course but no on can deny that in the short term, that would increase aggregate demand and create jobs.

    At least no one sensible could deny it.


    Parent

    I'll take your classic example (none / 0) (#58)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:38:29 AM EST
    and say that those million people digging holes could have been doing something else.

    Furthermore that 1 trillion dollars came from someone else.  It was "seized" from a taxpayer who would have otherwise spent that money on goods or services or used it to create a business, jobs and wealth.  Or he would have saved it and earned interest on that money because someone else would have used his investment to create wealth.

    You cannot create wealth by taking someone's money and giving it to someone else.   The "wealth" you are referring to was already created.  You've simply taken something that already existed, given it to someone else and called that creating wealth.

    I'm not saying the government shouldn't do things.      In my view the government needs to do thing that otherwise might not be done because the markets won't see a profit in them but there lies the truth.  Government does certain jobs because they are exactly that, necessary, unprofitable and wouldn't' otherwise be done.   What they don't do is create wealth.  In the long long haul one could say they help someone else create wealth but that's another argument and more phylisophical.

    Confusing government spending with wealth creation is simply that, confusing.

    Here's a simple example from another crazy person...Fredric Bastait...

    The French economist Frederic Bastiat pointed out that a broken shop window will create work for a glassmaker, but that work comes only at the expense of the cook or tailor the shopkeeper would have patronized if he didn't have to replace the window


    Parent
    So explain to me (none / 0) (#62)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:42:56 AM EST
    how wealth is created if I open a lemonade stand, but not if the government opens a lemonade stand.

    I mean, I don't create wealth myself.  All I do is get money from other people and then redistribute it around.  Right?

    Parent

    Welp (none / 0) (#68)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:52:40 AM EST
    You aren't taxing or inflating to get the funds necessary to direct the wealth creation which arises from the application of labor to commodities.  You would be using resources that were rightfully yours.

    If I were to come up to you with a gun and say "make orange juice instead" I'm not creating wealth but redirecting the wealth creation and seizing it violently.  

    Parent

    Well now (none / 0) (#70)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:56:01 AM EST
    we are just stuck on libertarian ideology where all government activity is conducted at the point of a gun.  Not a very interesting topic to me.  In my world, government exists by consent of the governed.

    You can issue all the moral condemnations you want but the moral judgment is utterly irrelevant to the economic reality of what is taking place.  

    Parent

    It is pertinent to the economy though (none / 0) (#74)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:04:07 AM EST
    so you should not ignore it.  

    Car sales are voluntary, cash for clunkers is involuntarily subsidized.  If it was not force generating this, then the program itself would not need to exist as we would volunteer to subsidize car purchases for people with clunkers.  

    Parent

    Not to be coy (none / 0) (#77)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:06:06 AM EST
    but in your world to libertarians not exist?  How is that statement logically coherent?  Obviously some people are not giving consent but are being forced to pay in - or are libertarians (which I ain't btw) all just lying when they say they do not consent to government taxation.  

    Parent
    You consent (none / 0) (#85)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:15:37 AM EST
    by living in the society.  It's a social contract.  Have you tried renouncing your citizenship yet?

    The US Constitution became effective when it was ratified by conventions in nine of the thirteen colonies.  There was no requirement that each and every resident of the colonies express his or her consent (not that anyone cared what the "hers" thought anyway).  If it's immoral for government to exercise sovereignty over anyone without their express individual consent, then it's pretty much an original sin and people should have long since packed their bags and headed for Antarctica if they truly wanted to be free.

    Parent

    Right, right. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:24:54 AM EST
    I always forget about that!  

    This video is entitled "The Social Contract: Defined and Destroyed in Under 5 Mins".  If you have the 5 minutes, let me know what specific aspects of his definition or rebuttal you disagree with.  

    Parent

    Just sayin' (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:39:23 AM EST
    Make sure to dress warm.  Maybe Dick Cheney will let you borrow that parka of his.

    You never answered me about that citizenship thing, though.  Surely you're not enjoying the benefits of U.S. citizenship while refusing to acknowledge the accompanying obligations, right?

    Parent

    Of course I acknowledge them, (none / 0) (#103)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:51:53 AM EST
    otherwise I'd be in jail for not paying my taxes.  Didn't mean to dodge, thought it went without saying.  But since I think the taxation is involuntary I get the benefit of knowing I did not choose to fund murder.  

    I think you've mislabeled me cause I really have no idea what you mean with the Dick Cheney thing.  

    Will you take the 5 minutes to watch the video? I'd like to see your objections.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#104)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:54:47 AM EST
    it's not involuntary since you have the option to renounce that darned citizenship and have no further dealings with the U.S. Government.  I'm sorry Uncle Sam took your money and put up all those worthless traffic lights.

    Parent
    Uncle City/County/State... (none / 0) (#105)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:56:39 AM EST
    puts up the traffic lights, no?  Uncle Sam blows up the traffic lights in other countries with the cheese we give him.

    Parent
    That again confuse the long term (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:05:50 AM EST
    with the short term.

    The problem is precisely that the private sector is not creating lemonade stands and lemonade stand jobs.

    To make up for this drop in private sector activity, the government steps in in a recession.

    The long term effects, you SHOULD argue, are too deleterious to make up for the short term benefits.

    That is your argument. Please make it so we can move past this silliness.


    Parent

    Great points. (none / 0) (#83)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:12:39 AM EST
    The questions is WHY is the private sector not creating lemonade stands.  It's because of a lack of customers.  

    When the government is "making up" for a drop in private sector activity, it is simply delaying the necessary restructuring of the economy by temporarily sustaining unsustainable models.  This is what a bubble is...the stimulus is just another bubble.  

    OFCOURSE the longterm effects are worse than the short term benefits, that's like saying the housing bubble was "worth it".  

    Parent

    That is your argument (none / 0) (#91)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:30:28 AM EST
    you could have cut right to that and we could have avoided the dissonance on short term stimulative effects.

    Parent
    They tried handing everyone checks (none / 0) (#133)
    by cawaltz on Sat Sep 05, 2009 at 05:38:55 AM EST
    and creating customers. Again, it wasn't effective. Why? It's that darn voluntary thing. If I(meaning the government) give you money then I do not have any control over saving and spending. However, if I spend that money(in lieu of giving it to you)then I can attempt to correct a market that is stuck by increasing demand for products.

    Your position towards government seems adversarial. Our relationship with government though is not meant to be adversarial. The whole premise is it exists to promote the general welfare. It's a vehicle meant to act in the best interest of the citizenry it represents.

    Parent

    Chiming in.... (none / 0) (#137)
    by kdog on Sat Sep 05, 2009 at 11:14:47 AM EST
    damn right my position towards government is adversarial, the government made law to lock people like me up!

    If the whole premise is to promote general welfare, and not as I belive to create a protection racket for wealth, what do we do when the general welfare is not being promoted?  I know what Jefferson said to do, but I don't wanna die or get caged, so what really can we do?  And don't you dare say vote cuz that don't work:)

    Parent

    Could have been doing something else like (none / 0) (#79)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:08:42 AM EST
    not working because there are not enough private sector jobs in the short term.

    Parent
    Paving over nature (none / 0) (#84)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:14:30 AM EST
    and building unwanted cars is better?  Joining the military?  The whole time devaluing the savings of non-government peoples.  

    Parent
    Joining the military (none / 0) (#90)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:29:34 AM EST
    That is government spending, in case you forgot.  

    Parent
    Reread (none / 0) (#94)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:33:38 AM EST
    I was giving examples that were all intended to be identified as government spending.  (infrastructure, cash for clunker, military)  

    Parent
    Government can create DEMAND (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:09:39 AM EST
    and of course can make certain people wealthy.

    You are confusing short term stimulus in a recession with long term economics.

    Honestly, I think you know this too.

    Parent

    Government spending & aggregate demand (none / 0) (#136)
    by mcl on Sat Sep 05, 2009 at 10:42:23 AM EST
    "You can argue many things, but you can not intelligently say that government spending does not increase aggregate demand."

    "That is just plain ignorant."

    Depends entirely on what kind of government spending we're talking about. The devil's in the details. Depending on the type of government spending, you may decrease aggregate demand.

    Let's take an example:

    Suppose banks get into trouble and the government spends vast amounts of money to save the banks. Let's say those banks are too big to fail and because of all the counterparty implications, much of the U.S. financial system would unravel if the government didn't step in to bail out those banks.

    Problem is, the bankers won't spend that money by loaning it out. They're not stupid, so they just sit on that money and use it dilute their losses while they make a small but guaranteed profit on the float between the fed funds rate and the interest rates they're already charging on their good investments, plus hefty fee increases, etc.

    The banks hope that if they can hang on long enough, the net present-day discount value of their bad loans will inflate away to approximately zero, and the income from the float will cover their costs in the meantime. However, since the banks aren't lending, the economy isn't picking up, and there's no increase in aggregate demand. The government funds have effectively gone into a giant black hole.

    This is the well-known liquidity trap faced by Japan in the 90s. You might want to read an economics textbook sometime and learn something about the liquidity trap.

    Aggregate demand isn't some magic emergent property of the financial system that somehow always increases if you add government spending, the way entropy in a closed system always increases if you add heat. It demands what kind of government spending you add to the system.

    Government spending on tax breaks for multinational corporations, for instance, gets dumped overseas and never sees American soil. Multinationals launder that money by playing international accounting games and it never trickles down to the man in the street.

    Many types of government spending fail to increase aggregate demand. Emergency government relief typically gets spent on property taxes and utility bills, which does nothing to increase aggregate demand. Government cheese doesn't increase aggregate demand, it merely gets eaten. And so on.

    Lots of government spending goes into a black hole, particularly financial bailouts. Theoretically they shoulda could woulda increased aggregate demand, but in the real world, the bankers sit on the money and never put it back into the economy.

    Capital gains tax cuts function the same way -- black hole city. The top 1% use those capital gains tax cuts not to buy more yachts and caviar (they already have all they would ever want), but to finance more stock purchases, more financial manipulation, etc. No knock-on effect, no increase in aggregate demand, just more useless unproductive financial manipulation.  The evidence for this last is overwhelming, by the way. The cretin in the Oval Office for the last 8 years drastically slashed cap gains taxes, yet the U.S. economy grew at the slowest rate of any post-WW II recession recovery after the 2001 slump.

    Parent

    Have you read Krugman's latest? (none / 0) (#28)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:45:06 AM EST
    I suggest you do. Keynes isn't the bogeyman here.

    Parent
    Great article (none / 0) (#46)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:14:58 AM EST
    You're right he takes a more objective view and discusses all the theories in a rational way.

    However, IMHO he misses a greater point that what he's call true markets are not what Austrian economists are referring to.

    True market believers are misunderstood in two way.  One that markets behaving "beautifully" always means they grow and two that what we've experience in the last few years and before the great depression where  true markets.

    On point one a recession or retraction is always inevitable because persuit of wealth creates greed and greed leads to excess and losses.   The market will adjust and a small painful period will lead to a correction and in the long hall we all win.   It is unarguable to quote BTD that since 1900 we are all better off.

    On point two both the great depression and the recent recession where the result of not only greed but government intervention.  What I consider gov't intervention and what Krugman might consider intervention are two different things but they both happened.  Not enough regulation, too much regulation etc... leads to certain people funding their greed and excess through or because of the gov't and the eventual collapse.   If the SEC hadn't provided cover for Madoff would investors have let him live so long?  If Freddie and Fannie had never been created would  would a true market have backed up these terrible loans?

    The answer is complicated and I think Krugman misses these points but he's a smart guy and almost everything he is saying is true.  

    I can admit that it is insane to think (like Peter Schiff) that our gov't isn't gong to be involved and shouldn't be involved in regulating our markets.  The question is how much and should they go to the other extreme of being as heavily involved as they are and should they actively seek to create the market through gov't handouts?

    Parent

    Well that is quite (none / 0) (#42)
    by SGITR on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:11:30 AM EST
    a problem. Overtaxing middle class citizens, some of who may have lost jobs, versus funding state and locals. That is kind of a choice between food in people mouths versus whether to have to cutback on building and maintaining parks and other programs. Not something that requires much thought imo.

    In an economy where consumer spending is key to our recovery I think relieving people of a faulty tax burden is way more important than if the state closes the beaches earlier due to budget cutbacks.

    FWIW I don't see how anyone, at this point, can say the stimulus was too small when only 11% or so of it has been distributed and spent. Given the many important boats that are rising on only 11% one could conclude that it has been very effective in a very short period of time. I mean how long has the money been out there? 4-5 months? And look at the combined results of the stimulus and the help for the financial sector. To say the stimulus was too small while not acknowledging what it has done so far is just not a fair statement at all.

    Parent

    As a question of stimulus (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:20:04 AM EST
    the answer is easy. Funding state and local government expenditures is obviously more stimulative. There is no argument on that. There simply is not.

    In terms of whether the AMT was going to be fixed, of course it was. IT should not have been part of the stimulus bill.

    Parent

    More stimulative for who? (none / 0) (#73)
    by SGITR on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:03:32 AM EST
    More stimulative to keep beaches open longer in California versus more stimulative to needy citizens personal budgets?

    It's easy to say there is no argument when it personally does not affect a person. But my bet would be those who got tax relief would very much have an argument and would consider the relief as stimulative to them personally. And isn't that what the purpose of the stimulus? To stimulate the economy via the consumer?

    Parent

    To the aggregate economy (none / 0) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:07:24 AM EST
    This is simple stuff.

    Let's get past it and get to the real policy issues.

    Or not.

    Parent

    Isn't the stimulus (none / 0) (#102)
    by SGITR on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:50:25 AM EST
    a real policy issue? Certainly it is and you brought it up.

    If you want to aggregate the economy when our economy is consumer driven then a big part of that aggregation is putting money into the pockets of consumers. That is what the stimulus is supposed to be doing. That is what the AMT inclusion did. That is also what happened when almost all working people got a stimulus rebate in the form of a tax credit, right? And there is no argument against that. Both the AMT and the tax credit rebate did the same thing in the same way.

    The other thing you want to do to stimulate the economy is to not unfairly financially penalize the very people who you are trying to lift up. The AMT fix made sure that did not happen.

    It needed to be done. It seems you are just caught up in the mechanics of where it was done. That's fine. But I'm not sure how important the distinction really is. If the net effect was that it was stimulative to the economy via the consumer then it's hard to argue that putting it in the stimulus package was the wrong place to have it imo.

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:35:30 AM EST
    Cash for Clunkers failed,
    This I know,
    Because the Journal tells me so...


    Parent
    Retail sales were down (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:43:30 AM EST
    in both July and August -- August, which is a school supplies month.

    Now many people who spend their all of their disposable income will be spending it on a car payment.

    And the "stimulus" likely took a huge number of buyers out of the system for short term gain.   What will car sales look like in the coming months? is the question.  Did manufacturing significantly increase?  I haven't seen any report of that.

    And the lack of stipulation that the money be spent on US cars? Huge mistake, huge. For instance Chrysler, after Cash for Clunkers is still in big trouble...

    We don't know what cash for clunkers did yet.  We don't know that it did or didn't benefit the economy in any meaningful way.  My guess is that it simply distorted buying.

    Parent

    worked for (none / 0) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:39:00 AM EST
    me

    Parent
    But (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:47:55 AM EST
    you refrained from buying your latte maker and you'll likely refrain from buying other things to pay for the car.

    In your case (and in the case of lots of other cash for clunkers buyers) you took your money out of other spending and put it into a car.

    Cash for clunkers took money out of retail sectors and put it into one sector.  And it gave away too much per car, so it didn't last long enough to spurn large manufacturing which would have boosted retail spending (correct me if I'm wrong).  The concept may have been good, the implmentation was horrible.

    Parent

    In a recession (none / 0) (#69)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:52:46 AM EST
    people do not spend money according to their normal patterns.  Nobody does.

    It is incorrect to assume that the car buyers simply would have spent their $10,000 on something else.  In the long run, over the course of a lifetime, sure they would have.  But in the short run, very unlikely.  The purpose is to get the velocity of money moving again.

    Parent

    Cash for clunkers worked like this (none / 0) (#29)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:45:16 AM EST
    The government passed out other people's money to dealers so people could buy cars they can't afford and the cars that where disposed of where actual assets or wealth that held value and those assets where destroyed.

    Worked great.

    Parent

    To stimulate the economy? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:50:47 AM EST
    It is undemiable,.

    Now, it may be bad policy ANYWAY,but you can not deny it has stimulated the economy by driving up demand for autos. That would be stupid of you.

    Parent

    If you're just talking (none / 0) (#43)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:12:57 AM EST
    aggregate demand, then you might as well not talk at all.  That number is not relevant.  It doesn't effect standard of living or mean jack to any foreign holders of dollars.  

    Cash for clunkers dropped out the bottom line of used cars which the poorest could have afforded by mandating they be scrapped.  

    It created a debt bubble with all the financing of new vehicles awarded to people on the premise of having had a clunker rather than an future earnings potentials and real down payments.  

    At the cost of billions it displaced future demand to the present.  

    Dealerships are still waiting for the reimbursement from the gov and having cash flow issues.  

    So yea, the economy "went up" that week.  If I spend $10,000 on a pizza, the economy of my house is stimulated too.

    Parent

    If your argument is aggregate demand (none / 0) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:18:51 AM EST
    is irrelevant, then we have nothing to discuss.

    I can not imagine a sensible conversation will ensure.

    Have a nice day.

    Parent

    I already knew that. (none / 0) (#52)
    by Samuel on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:21:08 AM EST
    Exactly (none / 0) (#54)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:24:38 AM EST
    Yes a few people bought cars they wouldn't have been able to afford with other people's money and the dealers got some quick profits with other people's money and the people whose money this stuff was bought with didn't have it to buy something for themselves.  

    Meanwhile thousands of assets where destroyed to make room for the new shiny cars and tons of energy and carbon where dumped into the atmosphere to destroy these cars.

    Again, worked great.

    Parent

    actually it worked like this (none / 0) (#31)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:51:48 AM EST
    more than 600,000 low milage polluting cars were taken off the roads and the auto industry was given the boost it needed.

    Parent
    In magic world you bet (none / 0) (#55)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:26:01 AM EST
    In the real work tons of energy and carbon where used to transport and destroy the perfectly usable cars.

    If you ran the numbers on the offsets the program will come out on the short end but why worry about that?

    Also GM and Chrysler didn't benefit so good thing we kept those dogs in business.

    Parent

    Oh right (none / 0) (#65)
    by Steve M on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:44:08 AM EST
    Clearly more energy is consumed by destroying an inefficient car than by letting it drive around for another year or two and then destroying it.  Who couldn't see that?

    Parent
    actually (none / 0) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:04:34 AM EST
    very little "energy" was used in "destroying" them because they were not destroyed.

    a solution was put in the engines and they were run until they locked up and were forever useless.  they cars are then used for parts.

    I actually got an allowance for my old car based on the "junk value".

    not to intrude with facts or anything.


    Parent

    Point taken (none / 0) (#100)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:46:32 AM EST
    Here's a more objective view from Slate

    Slado reports, you decide.

    Parent

    I never take much of anything (none / 0) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:58:06 AM EST
    I read at Stale very seriously but I think this is nuts:

    But how does the environmental argument for scrapping all those usable, old cars stack up? After all, those new, energy-efficient cars aren't going to just drop out of the sky, fully assembled.

    useable old cars?? wtf.  since when did we start preaching that driving high mileage polluting old cars was "good" for the environment?
    gee, unfortunately yes, some carbon will be produced by manufacturing new cars.

    yikes.

    Parent

    the environment btw (none / 0) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:59:10 AM EST
    being only part of the argument for that program.


    Parent
    The auto industry... (none / 0) (#82)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:11:08 AM EST
    was given welfare...right or wrong, I tend to think wrong, but ya can't call it anything but a welfare check.  

    Parent
    well (none / 0) (#86)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:21:48 AM EST
    in my case I bought a Ford.  Ford took no money from the auto bailout I believe.


    Parent
    Cool man... (none / 0) (#88)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:27:33 AM EST
    and I'm guessing you paid more in federal income tax then the rebate on your car, so you got a tax rebate pending an auto purchase, if we wanna get really technical:)  I looked at the 6 hundo Bush gave away as a tax rebate.

    I wonder how much your dealer pays in federal tax, and if that sum is more than he/she cashed out in the clunker program would determine if he/she got a rebate or got some welfare.

    Parent

    Work Fare (none / 0) (#89)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:28:04 AM EST
    just like the CCC (none / 0) (#95)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:34:36 AM EST
    Well, somewhat different, but in a similar philosophy.

    I'd like to see a renaissance of the CCC though... I'm all for public works programs to employ the un- or under-employed. Public works could be expanded to include almost any activity.

    Parent

    If they were buying cars that they couldn't (none / 0) (#134)
    by cawaltz on Sat Sep 05, 2009 at 09:28:51 AM EST
    afford that would point to there still being a problem with LENDING in the private sector? Are you really prepared to be pushing for regulation or nationalization if that is the case?

    Otherwise we should be assuming that people will be able to afford these cars at the terms they were given and the banks or car companies with lending capability will be making a small profit in the bargain.

    Not that I wouldn't be okay with nationalizing the banks. If I'm going to be stuck with one big mega bank that is "too large to fail" I'd just as soon the taxpayers own it outright. It also cuts out the paying bonuses out and giving parachutes to anyone who screws up. Bonus!

    Parent

    Good Points (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by SGITR on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:57:14 AM EST
    Blaming 80 billion out of 800 billion for the problems isn't correct.

    Spot on. Just look at all the other indicators such as housing which is making a big comeback along with the stock market. Manufacturing is inching upward. And that momentum has taken place with little of the stimulus actually being spent. With more money into the economy next year things are going to get even better.

    This is a credit and confidence problem and nothing is being done right now for businesses (other than banks) to give them the confidence to boost spending and open up lines of credit - thus they will either shed jobs or stop hiring.

    Correct. Most businesses are either directly or indirectly affected by consumer spending. Right now the majority of the population who do have jobs aren't spending because they are saving. Perhaps they should be blamed? I don't think so but the Princes of Darknesses just might go there as for next target.

    The fact about unemployment is that every economist, even those who disagreed with the recovery package, knows that it is jobs that recover last. Which of course if you think about it objectively makes perfect sense. The Obama administration predicted months ago that unemployment would reach 10% even after the stimulus so I don't understand what the big news is. The economy works in curves and the job market was fairly predictable.

    Parent

    Ahh (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:59:51 AM EST
    Now I know who you are. The picture is complete.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#44)
    by SGITR on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:13:14 AM EST
    An optimist.

    Parent
    Your comments here (none / 0) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:17:54 AM EST
    are most welcome.

    Keep it up. You are doing a fine job.

    Parent

    I read (none / 0) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 08:50:10 AM EST
    where this is supposed to last until 2014.

    If this keeps up the GOP will probably get a default win of the Presidency in 2012.


    Let my new job ask me to do just about anything, (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:00:09 AM EST
    and
    I will have to answer yes. At my age, just finding a tenure track position again is dicey.

    Parent
    I hear that... (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:09:14 AM EST
    I got expanded duties with my paycut...I so wanted to tell 'em to stick it but I don't have the stones, especially in this economy.

    Another downside of a sh*t economy & high unemployment is those that are lucky enough to still have jobs gotta eat more sh*t on 'em...the ownership society knows they hold more cards than ever.

    Parent

    As one of the "ownership society" (none / 0) (#21)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:27:54 AM EST
    Don't think that "we" enjoy contracting jobs and cutting costs.

    It's called capitalism and it sucks but it's honest and starightforward.

    Either you close your doors and let everyone go or you let a couple people go so that the group can survive.

    It's not nice, it's painful but it's reality and pretending that your boss is a bogeyman is self defeating.

    What is bull$hit is the cozy agreement between our government (not specific to Obama) that allows certain businesses and industries favored treatment while the other guy is left to drift in the wind.

    If you're looking for a bogeyman to believe in that bogeyman or women lives in Washington D.C.

    Parent

    I don't think my boss... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:58:47 AM EST
    is pulling a Mr. Burns and taking glee in cutting pay and expanding duties or anything...but I do see the incoming vs. the outgoing and I know for a fact that though we are down, we're not that down...the owners at my outfit are taking advantage of the economic situation a little bit, imo, and increasing/maintaining their end.  Which is their right as owners...thats capitalism, I know where the door is if I don't like it.  

    In total agreement about Washington and their patrons rigging the market...I'm a broken record on that. The free market is a myth.  

    Parent

    We're in agreement (none / 0) (#61)
    by Slado on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:42:38 AM EST
    but remember your "boss" or owner also has to consider things like NOPAT and ROIC.  Just breaking even isn't the goal.   The goal is to create wealth to either spend or reinvest int he buisness.

    How much is enough is the question however and to that point you are correct.  As in all plays there are good guys and bad guys and many will take this type of environment and use it to get ahead.

    Parent

    Another factor I think is at play... (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:01:53 AM EST
    is our biggest accounts have all done lay-offs and/or paycuts...and the bosses here don't want our customers to think we're doing better than they are...aka politics.

    Parent
    You're (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 09:24:27 AM EST
    not alone in that.

    Parent
    interesting (none / 0) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:13:35 AM EST
    This is making some of us with work (none / 0) (#59)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 10:39:21 AM EST
    have to work a heck of a lot harder on campuses (while still trying to figure out how to work less with our furloughs aka pay cuts -- but heck, we have work).  

    Lots of campuses like mine are overwhelmed with all of the work to cope, after low enrollments only a couple of weeks ago, with a late surge of last-minute students now.  A lot of the ones whom I know just had to give up hoping to get back to work, and they are borrowing to get back to school now to retrain for new careers -- because there are delays in financial aid funding for those students, too.  So of course, they cannot actually borrow from the banks that got their funding already; instead, these students are borrowing from us, their families, to help them get back into a better economy, when it comes.

    But it also is helping them get their confidence back, and that's a good thing.  Even though they are a bit frustrated with some teachers hired only the day before for classes added fast, even though they are not finding enough books ordered for them when orders went in months ago based on low enrollment projections then, etc. -- this is nada compared to the frustrations they have felt through their own furloughs, layoffs, and fears.

    We are hoping that the federal funding will come through retroactively for them. . . .

    we have more students and more FTEs (none / 0) (#92)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 11:31:10 AM EST
    than last year at this time. also, no furloughs here. Education association saw to that some years ago. Proration hits in other ways, though. I expect to be buying my own paper to make copies soon. no travel, no new purchases... using my own printer, ink, etc.

    After three months of unemployment, I'll buy my own supplies, with a feeling of relief. I won't say happiness, but relief that I have a need to buy supplies.

    Remember, at a research 1 institution, my salary was frozen for three years before I was downsized. The only fellow in my cohort who survived (seniority, no complaints) is getting paind the same as he did in 2005-6.


    Parent

    I'm at a campus at that level (none / 0) (#113)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:27:59 PM EST
    too, and this also comes after years of pay freezes and, at best, increases well below cost of living and inflation and all, too.  In the comparisons, we already were so far behind our peers that it was awful.  How we all will emerge from this mess, who knows. . . .

    Parent
    Good luck... (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:30:14 PM EST
    I'll take my current position over my last... I actually enjoy going to work again.

    Parent
    I'll say this (none / 0) (#110)
    by The Last Whimzy on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:05:35 PM EST
    A president can get away with anything if jobs are created.

    President Snowe? (none / 0) (#131)
    by diogenes on Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 06:23:25 PM EST
    You beat me for cynicism.  The back-loaded stimulus was filled with pork and hasn't even spent much of it's money as of September 2009.  It was a Democratic bill.  As Obama said, he and the Democrats OWN the economy now.

    "Government can't create wealth" (none / 0) (#135)
    by mcl on Sat Sep 05, 2009 at 10:24:35 AM EST
    Unbelievable tripe. The government proves instrumental in creating wealth all the time. The NIH is the largest biomedical research organization in the world, government-funded. Essentially all of America's biotech industry came out of NIH research.

    The government single-handedly funded the development of the first integrated circuits in order to make possible the Minuteman missile, whose unprecedented accuracy allowed them to use much lighter throw weight. That accuracy only became possible because the Minuteman missile used digital guidance system made from integrated circuits. The entire computer industry comes from massive government investment in integrated circuits in the late 50s and early 60s.

    The internet arose from DARPA research to find a secure communication system in the event of nuclear war. Google, Cisco Systems, Yahoo, and countless other internet business would not exist without the original DARPA funding.

    Industry after industry has been created by massive government funding of basic R&D which private companies are completely unequipped to fund. Yet you sit there on your computer with a CPU that's the direct outcome of government investment and post on the internet that's a direct outcome of massive government investment, that "government can't create wealth."

    Stop playing word games. You're making yourself look ridiculous.

    There are some things private enterprise can do well and some things it can't do at all -- for example, long-time-horizon investments like K-12 education, public libraries, and public health measures like vaccination. Basic science and engineering and biomed R&D is one of those things that the government can do and private industry simly won't do at all, ever, period, because the instant some guy in a boardroom asks "Where's the payoff?" the project would die.

    Only an American would spout nonsense as infantile as "The government doesn't create wealth."