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Wednesday Night Open Thread

Does anyone have more to say? If so, here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    as a legal fiction, (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by cpinva on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 11:40:01 PM EST
    jeralyn says:

    The rape charge was dismissed.

    the facts are, however, dispositive, and not in dispute among the parties:

    1. he got a 13 year-old girl drunk.

    2. he then proceeded to rape her.

    3. he plead guilty to a lesser charge (as many people do), to avoid trial and the possibility of spending a fair chunk of time in jail.

    4. he then fled the country, without actually having served any sentence (or actually being sentenced), making himself a fugitive from justice.

    5. he, and you (among others), claim that nefarious acts were committed, by the local prosecuters and the (since deceased) judge in the case. these asserted acts have never been proven in a court of law, none of the claimants have ever been subjected to adversarial cross-examination, making them hearsay, worth less than the paper or celluloid they're printed on.

    6. these accusations may or may not be true, i have no idea. however, it was the flight of mr. polanski himself, that kept them from being investigated by the US justice system, and proved or refuted officially.

    7. you (jeralyn) seem alone among your blogging peers, in thinking mr. polanski is somehow getting a raw deal, by being forced to accept responsibility for the agreement he entered into of his own free (and well represented) will. see: lawyers, guns and money and pandagon, for examples.

    8. this is especially surprising, given the nature of the offense he admitted to committing. perhaps, your role as a defense attorney (nothing at all wrong with that, i applaud your zealousness), and personal admiration of mr. polanski's professional work have clouded your view of this situation. just speculation mind you.

    items 1-7 are facts, 8 is, really, confusion on my part. none are name calling. that said, i must admit again to total bafflement as to your stated position, from both a legal and ethical view.

    No they are not facts (none / 0) (#33)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 02:18:00 AM EST
    And I caution readers against aceepting your statements as facts. You have several things wrong, beginning with: He did not plead guilty to rape or getting the girl drunk. He pleaded guilty to having sexual intercourse with a person under 18. There was no allegation in the charge he pleaded guilty to (nor did he admit) the sex was not consensual, that it was by force or that he caused her to be unable to resist. Your conclusion comes from her grand jury testimony which was one sided and not subjected to cross-examination. It is not evidence against him. It is an unproven allegation. You may believe it but that doesn't make it a fact.

    Second: He did do time, 42 days in Chino, a maximum security prison. He was sentenced to it and he did it. He left before the final sentencing proceeding. So, second false statement on your part.

    No need to go further.

    Parent

    one more (none / 0) (#34)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 02:26:14 AM EST
    lawyers in a case are not allowed to be witnesses. But they are officers of the court and can lose their license for knowingly making false statements in pleadings. The facts of the night are not the issue and Polanski's lawyers and the original DA  haven't argued them in their pleadings and declarations. Only the current DA did, and since he's reciting unproven grand jury testimony, I think he was wrong to do so. This isn't about what happened that night, it's about whether the judicial system and a defendant's rights were violated by a judge abandoning his duty and acting improperly. If an injustice was done to Polanski, it should be corrected. That's the issue.

    Parent
    Not only is good to be the judge... (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 10:54:08 AM EST
    its good to be the judge's son.

    I don't expect (none / 0) (#62)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 11:34:37 AM EST
    a preacher's son to be a saint, but I do expect a judge's son to be a better versed on how to handle being arrested.  Better yet, how not to be arrested.

    Parent
    Never known a judge's kid... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 11:45:00 AM EST
    hung out with plenty of police officer's kids back in the day...they tended to be the biggest degenerates of the bunch...the PBA cards in their wallets/purses are their get out of jail free cards.

    Parent
    Re :: (none / 0) (#1)
    by az on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 09:47:55 PM EST
    I am surprised that there are some out there defending the rapist ... It is interesting to find out the value sets of different people...

    If I can add my 2 cents here... (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:12:32 PM EST
    you can like or dislike Polanski all you want; I don't think TL is making an argument that Polanski is a paragon of virtue.

    The issue, as I see it, is that the system failed in a very big way, because individuals who were supposed to be serving the law decided to monkey around with the it to get the result they wanted.

    Given that this is a system that serves all of us - or is supposed to - and that any one of us could fall victim to that kind of abuse of the system that occurred in this case, means that it has to be condemned - regardless of what one's personal feelings are about what any individual is alleged to have done.

    The ends do not justify the means.

    Parent

    Re: (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by az on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:17:19 PM EST
    The system failed the child not the rich and famous guy....

    To some its the other way round , which is bizarre...

    Parent

    Complete lack of communication (4.00 / 2) (#21)
    by cymro on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 11:05:51 PM EST
    Your point of view involves placing yourself outside the legal system of justice in the US and drawing conclusions about what ought to have happened, from your own perspective (and in your opinion, would have happened if only, for example, you were in a position to determine how the law should be applied in this case).

    Jeralyn's point of view, as a defense attorney, involves placing herself entirely within the legal system of justice in the US and drawing conclusions about what actually happened from the perspective of the proper legal processes (which are specifically designed to prevent the views of individuals like you and me, or misguided judges, from from determining how the law should be applied in any particular case).

    It's no wonder you're not able to communicate.

    Parent

    AZ has become a (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 11:43:01 PM EST
    blog-clogger and is now suspended from commenting. I've deleted three more comments in this thread alone stating the same falsity.

    Parent
    Not every attorney on here though is (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 08:57:47 AM EST
    arguing that judicial misconduct means that Polanski should not be tried for his crime.

    Parent
    I'm a fan of Due Process. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 11:30:29 AM EST
    I think everyone should have Due Process.  Isn't in the Constitution somewhere?

    Parent
    Because... (none / 0) (#15)
    by NealB on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:23:13 PM EST
    ...we never know the ends.

    Parent
    you almost got banned last night (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 09:52:22 PM EST
    so watch the name-calling. The rape charge was dismissed. He pleaded guilty to having sexual intercourse with a person under 18 who was not his wife. Take it to another site. There are plenty of ways to agree with the state's legal position which is allowed here. Name-calling is not allowed. You are on notice.

    Parent
    Alan Grayson pulls a MoveOn (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:00:43 PM EST
    My cynical guess: his numbers for the reporting cycle looked bad.

    Don't do me any favors Alan.

    Cryptidiotic (none / 0) (#6)
    by NealB on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:10:00 PM EST
    Don't know what you're talking about. I'm sure it's clever.

    Parent
    Remember the politically ineffective (none / 0) (#9)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:16:21 PM EST
    but fundraising bonanza known as Betrayus?

    So too Grayson on the House floor. I am informed that he is all over cable news.

    Parent

    I'm still lost (none / 0) (#13)
    by NealB on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:20:02 PM EST
    What do you mean?

    Parent
    Oh, wait... (none / 0) (#10)
    by NealB on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:17:13 PM EST
    ...I actually had the same thought. Took me a minute. Get up on the floor of the house. Say something true. Excite the opposition to censure you. Inspire allies to get your back by donating via an actblue page. Great way to collect a couple ten grand. You could be right.

    I wondered whether Grayson has a solid base of support in his district of Florida. I wondered whether he'd run for President against Obama in 2004. I'd vote for him.

    Parent

    Well, there's a difference (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:21:46 PM EST
    between "true" and "politically helpful." The former is questionable at best. The latter is just wrong with respect to what Grayson did IMO.

    Parent
    We'll see (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Steve M on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:27:39 PM EST
    Maybe the media will do their jobs and point out that it is no different from what numerous Republicans have been saying for the past month.

    Parent
    OK, lots of guessing needed... (none / 0) (#18)
    by NealB on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:30:41 PM EST
    ... to know what "politically helpful" means. I assume you mean helpful to Grayson to get reelected next year. And like I said, I don't know what his prospects are in whatever godforsaken circle of hell of Florida he represents. Maybe politics has nothing to do with it; maybe he's just telling it like he sees it. Maybe for him telling the truth will be politically helpful. Like I said, I'd vote for him.

    Parent
    I use it to mean a few things (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:48:19 PM EST
    To help his own reelection efforts, to help democrats generally, and to help pass healthcare. They are all tied together IMO.

    Steve M is right that I could be wrong, but my nose tells me otherwise.

    Parent

    Just saw this... (none / 0) (#28)
    by NealB on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:18:36 AM EST
    ...Grayson on Situation Room. He's relentless. Outnumbered 4:1 he sticks with it. Everything he says is rational, verifiable; true.

    Parent
    Um, were you listening to the words?? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by andgarden on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:26:03 AM EST
    The way he responds to Alex Castellanos is just plain wrong on the substance. What Alex described is the insane RSC/McCain healthcare "competition" plan combined with Bill Bradley's tort reform idiocy.

    Anyone who can make James Carville seem thoughtful is not doing such a good job IMO.

    Parent

    What did you hear? (none / 0) (#30)
    by NealB on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:37:14 AM EST
    Tell me what you heard him say in response to Castellanos that was "just plain wrong" and what you mean by substance. No offense, and thanks for remarking, but it's hard to know what you mean.

    Parent
    I assume you watched the sm. video I did (none / 0) (#31)
    by andgarden on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:50:19 AM EST
    Castellanos spells out a list of right wing health care "reform" ideas, and Grayson accuses him of appropriating the Democratic plan. Grayson bought himself no credibility, and his contemporaneous claim that "truth is an absolute defense" was Nelson-laugh worth.

    Grayson made a fool of himself, and any competent Republican can fact check what he said. He comes off like a pompous, dissembling, idiot. A guy who might be a pretty good candidate for a high school debate team.

    Parent

    Uh, the study claiming (2.00 / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 10:15:17 AM EST
    that 45,000 died because of no insurance is a joke.

    Parent
    Whenever I see (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 01:12:51 PM EST
    the words "estimate" my BS filter becomes fully alerted.

    BTW - The article quotes:

    The researchers examined government health surveys from more than 9,000 people aged 17 to 64, taken from 1986-1994, and then followed up through 2000. They determined that the uninsured have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those with private health insurance as a result of being unable to obtain necessary medical care. The researchers then extrapolated the results to census data from 2005 and calculated there were 44,789 deaths associated with lack of health insurance.

    Uh, and it just zings when I see "extrapolated."

    Point is that the study did not link death to lack of insurance. It just said. Health insurance yes/no and if no and if the person died within a year the lack of insurance was counted as the reason.

    I am for a single payer system modeled on Medicare but using scare tactics that the opposition can easily shoot down is stupid. For anyone.

    Parent

    Estimates are like noses (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 08:01:16 PM EST
    We all have one...

    Enjoy the kool aid and keep on supporting things that the Repubs want you to...

    Me? I'll stick with facts and

    you have a good night.

    lol

    Parent

    You seem to be missing some things (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 07:58:58 PM EST
    First, you have never provided a link to the actual survey and the methodology of the study.

    Secondly you now leave out an important fact from the article:

    The researchers then extrapolated the results to census data from 2005 and calculated there were 44,789 deaths associated with lack of health insurance.

    Why is that? Should it be because a dictionary says:

    extrapolate - to infer (an unknown) from something that is known; conjecture

    conjecture - an opinion or theory so formed or expressed; guess; speculation.

    lol

    Parent

    interpolation (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Oct 02, 2009 at 09:21:09 PM EST
    the process of approximating a given function by using its values at a discrete set of points.

    approximation - is an inexact representation of something that is still close enough to be useful.

    Useful, as in making scary claims based on voodoo science.

    lol


    Parent

    Hey, Jeralyn - I noticed that the (none / 0) (#5)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:04:56 PM EST
    "Advertise Liberally" blogads has this post highlighted:
    Note to elected officials: Start doing your f**king jobs
    except that the f-word is there in all its glory.

    Is this something that would cause TL to be blocked by some filters?

    I guess you have no control over what appears there - just wondered if it has caused any problems.

    thankfully bloggers rarely use those words in (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:13:19 PM EST
    their blog titles. I have no control over it. Since it's not written on TalkLeft but appears in an ad, I don't think the filters used at law firms will seize on it. (It doesn't come up in a google seearch.) Those blog titles only last a few hours or so, until another blog writes an entry, so I'm not going to worry about it. But I do wish those bloggers would not use such words in their titles.

    Parent
    Leadership, (none / 0) (#12)
    by Left of the Left on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:19:04 PM EST
    Obama style:


    The White House measure appears designed to entice moderate Democrats and perhaps even Republicans into supporting a health care overhaul if legislative efforts in Congress fail or if they move too far to the left. Sources said one possibility would be to invoke the measure if the Senate cannot rally 60 votes to break a filibuster. Another option may be to present details of what the White House wants during a conference between the House and the Senate.


    I'm getting really tired of this (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:27:36 PM EST
    thing being called an "overhaul" when it is little more than rearranging the furniture to distract people from seeing what it really is: an insurance industry windfall.

    But, since the "public" option isn't public, and isn't an option for millions of people, I guess "overhaul" is just one more word that doesn't mean what it used to.

    Parent

    Use Colbert! (none / 0) (#35)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 05:06:16 AM EST
    Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

    Parent
    "It's only been nine months..." (none / 0) (#20)
    by NealB on Wed Sep 30, 2009 at 10:52:08 PM EST
    ...said a friend of mine tonight during a commercial while we were watching Glee*. Nine months since Obama was elected so we need to wait longer before we judge him. I asked, reasonably I thought, how much longer do you need? He refused to answer. I challenged: well, if you can't say how long you're willing to give him, why does it matter whether it's only been nine months? The logic didn't click. He's just willing to hang in there as long as it takes. He doesn't want the conflict.

    * I like Glee. I wish it were less weird. They've got a few very talented actor singers in the cast. They've got an interesting premise. They've got a gay kid and a black chick and the wheel-chair kid and I like all of them. But bringing in Kristen Chenowith as a thirty-something back-to-high-school person was unbelievable. I lose my interest in irony after two or three layers, so maybe it's me; but the Chenowith character (and I give Chenowith some credit for having played the role) was disgusting all the way down.

    Padres beat the Dodgers at Petco (none / 0) (#27)
    by oculus on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 12:13:23 AM EST
    5 to zip.  Colorado beat the Brewers.  Dodgers leave San Diego w/o winning NL West.  Yeah.

    Double yeah! (none / 0) (#50)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 09:26:53 AM EST
    Thanks Padres!!!  Atlanta lost last night while the Rox won, so their magic number to clinch the WC is 1.  The Division title is within the realm of possibility too.  

    Bring on Rocktober!

    Parent

    Sweet deal for Nevada (none / 0) (#37)
    by jbindc on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 06:59:08 AM EST
    Apparently, some Senators are not happy with Harry Reid, after he moved to ensure that Nevada wouldn't be hurt by the upcoming changes to Medicaid in the health care bill moving through the Senate Finance Committee right now:

    The sweeping health care bill drafted by Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus of Montana would expand Medicaid to cover families of four with an income of roughly $29,000 per year and people with an income less than 133 percent of the poverty level.

    When Baucus first floated the bill in mid-September, Reid strongly criticized it because the federal government would pick up just 87 percent of the new costs, leaving the rest to the states. But Baucus later modified the language to ensure that the federal government paid 100 percent of the costs in Nevada. Reid's state -- along with Michigan, Oregon and Rhode Island -- has been given the added protections because it has been hit especially hard by the recession.



    How short-sighted (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 08:15:18 AM EST
    Rather than being specific about naming states, why don't they just do some blanket statistical facts that would apply to any state that experiences a sudden drop in their economics?

    Parent
    NV? OR? RI? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 08:03:34 AM EST
    Michigan I can see.  Not much sympathy for the others and definitely no sympathy for the concept of pork barreling Medicaid.

    Parent
    Goldilocks and the Three Bears (none / 0) (#38)
    by jbindc on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 07:01:10 AM EST
    Have nothing on this story:

    Over the weekend, Arlington Police arrested a man -- who turned out to be a U.S. Capitol Police officer -- who was apparently 'sleeping it off' in a woman's bed. Police say the woman didn't know him and didn't know how he got into her apartment.

    Police say it was about 1:00 a.m. Sunday, when Arlington police officers were called to the 1000 block of North Randolph Street - for what was reported as an unknown person inside the residence.

    Police say the woman came home to find an strange man asleep in her bed -- and he was not someone that the woman or her roommate knew. Police say the man was intoxicated.

    Thomas Patrick McMahon, 34, of Reston. was charged with unlawful entry.

    A spokeswoman with the U.S. Capitol Police told 9NEWS NOW that he had been placed on administrative leave pending the outcome of the criminal investigation in Arlington, and that the incident would also be the subject of a U.S. Capitol police internal affairs investigation.



    My first impulse (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Fabian on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 08:08:24 AM EST
    would be to call police dispatch.  My second impulse would be to get a camera, a permanent marker, duct tape, perfume...

    Parent
    Sounds like an honest mistake... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 08:23:40 AM EST
    who hasn't stumbled into the wrong house and slept in the wrong bed?

    Ok, I haven't either, but I have urinated in a linen closet...these kinda things happen, no need to make a federal case out of it:)

    Parent

    I use to hate those (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 10:23:22 AM EST
    bathroom signs saying...

    "Laddies" and "Ladies."

    I fixed the problem by getting too old to bar hop.

    ;-)

    Parent

    The smoking ban... (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 10:51:32 AM EST
    fixed that problem for me...now I just take my smoke to the alley and kill two birds with one stone, no worries about picking the wrong restroom, the alley is unisex:)

    Parent
    Puts a whole new meaning (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 10:21:34 AM EST
    to the old song's words....

    "oh show me the way to go home..."

    Parent

    what do we think (none / 0) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 08:59:42 AM EST
    of the Rocky/Franken amendment to force the insurance companies to spend 90% of the 490 billion in subsidies they will get on health insurance for citizens and not for pay raises, airplanes or anything else?

    I saw him talking about it last night.

    Well, it comes closer to insisting (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by andgarden on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 10:04:02 AM EST
    that we actually regulate the insurance companies a la Switzerland. But here's the question: do you trust the American regulatory regime to keep insurance companies honest? I don't.

    Parent
    heres a (none / 0) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 09:11:35 AM EST
    Good diary (none / 0) (#48)
    by Steve M on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 09:11:42 AM EST
    on that subject at the orange place.  It's a great idea IMO.

    Parent
    I was just going to put this up! (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 09:24:00 AM EST
    Dallasdoc has been lefty blogging for a long time.  Very intelligent person.  I would have never thought of approaching our healthcare horrors in such a way, but it makes PERFECT sense to me!  And it is nice to Franken's name on this!  Cuz it's sort of brainy.  And the 90% is supposed to increase over time to become 96%.  I like Dallasdoc's perspective of fighting this fight on several fronts to weaken the spouting fonts of rhetoric when we only settle on arguing over a few aspects.  I don't usually catch the DailyShow so I DVR'd it yesterday.  Watched it last night. Not fun watching how pathetic our Democratic leaders can be but funny.  John Ensign was the best though.

    Parent
    its really hard (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Capt Howdy on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 09:27:37 AM EST
    to see  how anyone votes against it and basically says 49 billion is just not enough for them to do with as they like.

    Parent
    it should be (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by CST on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 09:29:06 AM EST
    a very enlightening vote

    Parent
    Here's something we haven't talked about (none / 0) (#59)
    by jbindc on Thu Oct 01, 2009 at 11:23:27 AM EST
    Support drops for abortion rights:

    For most of the last two decades, a clear majority of Americans has supported the right to abortion. A new poll, though, shows that support for abortion appears to have declined, with the public almost evenly divided over the issue.

    The apparent shift has occurred in just the last year. In 2008, a poll conducted by the Pew Research Center found that those in favor of keeping abortion legal outnumbered opponents by 54 to 40 percent. The new poll, also conducted by Pew researchers, and released on Thursday, showed that the gap had narrowed considerably: 47 percent of those surveyed said abortion should be legal in all or most cases, and 45 percent said it should be illegal in all or most cases -- a difference within the poll's margin of sampling error.

    The new survey did not find the reasons for the shift in opinion. But Pew researchers pointed out that it has occurred since the election of President Obama, a Democrat who supports abortion rights but has often spoken about the need to reduce the number of abortions.

    The change happened among many demographic groups, to varying degrees -- among women and men; Republicans, Democrats and independents; Protestants, Catholics and Jews; whites and Hispanics. There was no change among blacks and people who have no religious affiliation.

    "The size of the shift is modest, but the consistency with which we see it occurring and the implications it has for the overall dynamics of the debate make it significant," said Gregory Smith, a senior researcher at the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, who worked on the poll.