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Tuesday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 12:40:32 PM EST
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At the Vuelta today, the peloton did an imitation of the Dems on health care reform:

[Sorry, You Tube pulled the video. Update -- Inspector Gadget found a new video. The crash starts at the 3:25 mark.]

This is an Open Thread.

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    Tuesday Morning Open Thread | 94 comments (94 topical)

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    Video no longer available. (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 12:55:55 PM EST


    I'll see if I can find another one (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 12:57:36 PM EST


    Parent
    No luck sorry (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:51:03 PM EST


    Parent
    It's on YouTube (none / 0) (#37)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:59:31 PM EST
    You can still go there to see video of it. The crash begins just about the 3 min 25 sec mark.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:15:37 PM EST


    Parent
    I suppose we could have a big discussion (none / 0) (#57)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:20:43 PM EST
    about why people post videos of other people crashing and getting hurt.

    Parent
    Why do my husband and son watch (none / 0) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:24:42 PM EST
    those shows on that one guy channel that is nothing but film clip after film clip of mostly guys crashing themselves, things, things and self?  They can go into a trance and watch them back to back all afternoon too.

    Parent
    I am a cycling fan (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:29:52 PM EST
    Wrote about the Vuelta yesterday.

    So I was probably going to write about it today too.

    The crash was handy for my disdain for the Dems.

    Horner is out BTW. Broke his wrist.

    Parent

    My pleasure (none / 0) (#66)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:45:48 PM EST
    It's quite the spectacular crash.

    Parent
    repost from the other open thread (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by CST on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:05:19 PM EST
    idiodic ruling of the week:

    lactating is not "a condition relating to pregnancy" according to the Ohio supreme court.

    That's depressingly stupid.

    lol (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:14:40 PM EST
    not a condition related to pregnancy! Not much biology knowledge there, I guess!

    Funny how you don't lactate unless you've been pregnant...  yet they are unrelated.

    Parent

    I can just imagine (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:18:54 PM EST
    what would happen if a righteously PO'd lactator decided to go to work wearing a thin, clinging top and an unpadded bra.  Do you know what happens if you don't pump your breasts while you are lactating?

    I think most employers would prefer that you pump rather than deal with the alternative.

    Parent

    A good friend of mine (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:05:11 PM EST
    who specializes in discrimination cases tells me that the ruling is most likely correct, but also serves to demonstrate why more states need to pass proactive legislation in this area.

    The claim is that the plaintiff was fired because she took unscheduled breaks at work in order to pump.  The company's argument was basically: "Look, we fire everyone who takes unscheduled breaks, and since we weren't picking on her because of the reason for her break, it's not pregnancy discrimination."  That may be factually true or false, but it's not a ridiculous argument.

    Parent

    Exactly. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:15:25 PM EST


    Parent
    Is lactation something that (none / 0) (#74)
    by coast on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:18:02 PM EST
    can be scheduled?  I don't know the answer to that one.  if not, how can you be expected to schedule a break to pump?

    BTW, my wife would kick my a$% for asking this question: 1) for simply asking and 2) for not knowing the answer after having two kids.

    Parent

    Optimally (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 05:45:36 PM EST
    You would nurse/pump every 2-3 hours.  At work, you might be able to go up to five hours without pumping, might be able.  A pumping session (prep, pumping, storage) would take about twenty minutes, ten if you were very good and pumped both breasts at the same time.

    For an average nine hour shift, you might be able to use just one lactation break, but probably would want two.  And for pity's sake, clear it with your boss/supervisor first.  Most bosses are willing to work something out, as long as you make the effort minimize the impact on your performance.

    Parent

    I'm not sure "un-scheduled" (none / 0) (#84)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:37:33 PM EST
    is the right word here. I think "un-authorized" is. Big difference between the two.

    However, to answer your question, "lactation" is producing milk and that starts soon after childbirth. So you don't schedule that any more than you schedule growing your fingernails.

    Expressing that milk (whether through nursing a child, by a breast pump, etc.) however, is a different thing all together. Can you schedule that? Well, yes and no.

    The boobs get full, just like a bladder. And the more you hold it, the more uncomfortable it is. For various reasons sometimes it just starts leaking out.

    She took breaks to express with a breast pump w/o getting authorization. It's not clear whether she tried to obtain authorization or not.

    Parent

    Are you sure that's what it says? (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:16:48 PM EST
    Ergo, the court decided not to bother addressing the thornier question of whether lactation counts as a pregnancy-related condition, which would be protected under the state's anti-discrimination laws.
    My bolds.

    Parent
    not my area of expertise (none / 0) (#17)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:19:56 PM EST
    but are there instances where normal people lactate outside of a "pregnancy-related condition"

    its a serious question since I do not know.

    Parent

    fwiw... (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:21:45 PM EST
    Greg Focker said you can milk anything with nipples.

    Parent
    Not a normal condition (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:36:15 PM EST
    but can be caused by a pituitary tumor and by certain drugs.  It can also be stimulated in other ways.  Link

    And yes, males can breastfeed if similar stimulatory mechanisms are used.  It can cause breast enlargement and it's not very well accepted socially, but it can be done.

    Parent

    heh (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:09:04 PM EST
    you know what
    Im sorry I asked.

    Parent
    Well, women lactate after they've given birth, (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:36:26 PM EST
    ie., it would seem to be a mother-with-infant-child-related condition.

    Parent
    Very, very rarely. (none / 0) (#40)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:03:20 PM EST
    You can attempt to induce lactation with a combination of hormones and physical methods - but few women would try this unless they were trying to lactate for their own child.

    Parent
    Or (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:20:08 PM EST
    an adopted child.

    Parent
    Depends on which opinion you read (none / 0) (#18)
    by CST on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:20:02 PM EST
    From another link:

    "The trial court ruled against Allen by finding that lactation was not covered by Ohio's pregnancy anti-discrimination laws.  It held:

    "Allen gave birth over five months prior to her termination from [Isotoner]. Pregnant [women] who give birth and chose not to breastfeed or pump their breasts do not continue to lactate for five months. Thus, Allen's condition of lactating was not a condition relating to pregnancy but rather a condition related to breastfeeding. Breastfeeding discrimination does not constitute gender discrimination. "

    emphasis mine.  That's what it says.


    Parent

    Since when did men . . . (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:26:23 PM EST
    start breastfeeding?

    Breastfeeding discrimination does not constitute gender discrimination


    Parent
    heh (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by CST on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:28:16 PM EST
    beat me to it

    Parent
    Honestly (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CST on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:27:40 PM EST
    in some ways this is the worst part:

    "Breastfeeding discrimination does not constitute gender discrimination"

    If that's not gender related than I don't know what is.  I've yet to see a man who could breastfeed.

    Parent

    And to think the "brains" that wrote (none / 0) (#25)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:33:36 PM EST
    that, made it to the OSC!

    Parent
    I have seen some that (none / 0) (#32)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:49:36 PM EST
    look like they can. Get a mansier dude!

    Parent
    Fair enough, I was quoting from your first link. (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:42:58 PM EST
    I'll let the attorneys here decide which of your links is correct.

    Parent
    the quote I posted (none / 0) (#31)
    by CST on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:46:02 PM EST
    was actually in both links.  I just included the other one for back-up since it has a better context.

    Parent
    Your article, then, contradicts itself. (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:08:16 PM EST
    How about this article that does not:
    When the Ohio Supreme Court agreed to hear the appeal in Allen v. Totes/Isotoner, it was widely expected that the Court would address the question of whether Ohio's pregnancy discrimination laws required employers to allow a woman who is breastfeeding to take unscheduled lactation breaks. [ie., if lactating is a pregnancy-related condition.]

    Instead, a fractured court rendering five separate opinions (as well as the conclusion of Justice Lanzinger that she would have dismissed the appeal as having been improvidently accepted) dodged the question.

    The per curium opinion, which was joined in only by Justices Lundberg Stratton, O'Donnell and Cupp, upheld summary judgment in favor of Isotoner on the ground that Isotoner terminated Ms. Allen for what she agreed were unauthorized breaks from her work station. [THAT's what the court held.]

    As a result, the per curium decision stated that it was unnecessary for the Court to address the issue of whether discrimination due to lactation was prohibited by Ohio's discrimination laws.

    My []s, italics and bolds.

    The court held that she took unauthorized breaks and did not, as a court, address whether lactating is a pregnancy-related condition - although a couple of the judges gave their personal opinions on the subject.

    Parent

    Sound of (none / 0) (#46)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:06:36 PM EST
    jaw hitting the floor here.  "Breast-feeding discrimination does not constitute gender discrimination"-- I'm literally speechless.

    Any women on this court, just curiously?

    Parent

    For MilitaryTracy and Josh (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:11:53 PM EST
    and Veterans!
    Creative Mobility out of Chicago creates and adapts bikes for children and adults with handicaps.  I hope to be able to fly out with my son by next year sometime to fit him with a tricycle.  

    This picture is from the 2008 Soldier's Ride.  The recumbent tricycle in the back is the Versa Trike - the one I hope to get for my son.

    We got a chance to look at one (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:45:51 PM EST
    a few months back.  The bummer thing is we have no place to use one.  There are no bike paths in rural Alabama, there isn't even a shoulder on almost all of the roadways.  I'm told it is the price paid for some Governor who ran promising to pave every road.  And he did, just not very well.....there was a lot of work....too much to include shoulders too :)

    Parent
    No shoulders here (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:09:35 PM EST
    in VT on most roads, either, just big ditches...

    Don't suppose you could get him a pony?

    Parent

    We're fresh out of ponies in MTland :) (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:20:47 PM EST
    We had a pony on the ranch when I was little.  Do you how mean that thing was?  He was always trying to brush you off on a barbwire fence, so my six foot something cousin would get on him first.  He would stick his leg and foot out long enough to brace against the fence posts and pony got no joy while this six foot evil kid rode the snot out of him.  Finally he'd be too tired and was safe for the rest of us to ride :)  He would bite me every time he had the chance too when I was crawling over the fence doing chores.  Ponies are overrated in all spheres :)

    Parent
    Reminds me of Maid Marion... (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:29:49 PM EST
    a real ornery filly I worked with as a teen at sleepaway summer camp...too mean to let the kids ride, but I was determined to break her.  Took her out on the trails, she gets to trying to buck me off, I stay on but smash my face against her mane but good, bloodying my nose and making me dizzy. I walked her back to the barn and Maid Marion got the rest of the summer off eating her hay while the more docile horses picked up the slack for the riding lessons.

    Of course she was my favorite of all the horses:)

    Parent

    True of Shetland ponies (none / 0) (#89)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 06:28:23 PM EST
    particularly males, even geldings, almost universally.  But there are other kinds of ponies not so mean!

    Parent
    He was a gelded male Shetland named (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 02, 2009 at 09:45:49 AM EST
    Rusty.  He came to the ranch through some sort of trading with another rancher.  Some extra cash was owed so Rusty was thrown in to even out the deal and at that time Shetlands brought a good sum when sold.  He was never resold, he seemingly lived forever, died of old age.  We also had a Welsh cross and he was sweet, he wasn't "worth" as much cashwise but he was taller and often was used to bring cows in and sadly because he found actual work on the ranch was not considered a kid item :(

    Parent
    tht would go back (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by jeffinalabama on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:44:50 PM EST
    to "Big Jim" Folsom and the farm-to-market paving and bridge building initiatives of the  47-51 term or the '55-'59 terms. He was much better than you'd think. Roads and bridges in the 40s and 50s helped end the isolation of rural Alabama.

    the problem has been since folsom, not a lot of improvement in the infrastructure.

    Parent

    I didn't mean to overly dog the man (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:49:28 PM EST
    Ummmm, that was an enormous promise and guess what....he kept it.  So old school.  I don't know what his problem was.

    Parent
    He was liberal in race relations (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jeffinalabama on Wed Sep 02, 2009 at 09:03:44 AM EST
    He said, trying to write from memory here (not of him saying it, my memory of reading it) that as long as the negro was kept in low social and economic positions, poor whites would be held in  low social and economic positions as well.

    He said this in the 1940s. Still offering white privilege, but explaining his desire to pull back from the crushing segregation laws.

    Here's the quote, from his 1949 christmas speech ( I decided to try to do better than Joe Klein: "As long as the Negroes are held down by deprivation and lack of opportunity, the other poor people will be held down alongside them."

    Of course, being followed by the likes of Persons in '51 (whose first act was to replace Auburn's football coach, and who encouraged and signed both anti-union and anti-civil righs legislation)and Patterson in '59 (Patterson defeated George Wallace, who, in the '58 campaign actually had the endorsement of ALabama's NAACP), Folsom's civil rights agenda wasn't particularly embraced in the state.

    He faced corruption innuendo... to which he responded, ore or less, that if anybody was stealing in state government, it was him.

    He was called Big Jim because he was tall, but also 'kissing Jim' because he would get the state troopers to take him and some drinking buddies to the state line (after consuming significant amounts), set up road blocks, and greet the people coming to the state, kissing the ladies. My mom got one of those kisses when the family moved here.

    A character.

    Parent

    I sure thought (none / 0) (#78)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:27:45 PM EST
    that it was all thanks to George Wallace!

    Parent
    Town Hall (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by waldenpond on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:54:44 PM EST
    I'm going to a town hall tomorrow.  My Blue Dog supports the public option so I figured I would go for support if nothing else.  I have a couple of tough questions I hope I get to ask.

    take pictures (none / 0) (#70)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:01:51 PM EST


    Parent
    Good idea (none / 0) (#85)
    by waldenpond on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:38:39 PM EST


    Parent
    Mine's having one as well, but it's only (none / 0) (#90)
    by allimom99 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 09:57:54 PM EST
    scheduled to last for an hour. Our local tea partiers had their own meeting last week and invited an insurance agent and a rep of the local branch of St Joseph's Health System. No alternate opinions need apply.

    Local Blue Dog turned down that invitation, but really, ONE HOUR? He'd need that much time just to respond to MY questions (he also supports the public option, but I'm not sure wheter he'd fight for it or not). You're not in CA 1 by any chance?

    Parent

    Mike Thompson (none / 0) (#94)
    by waldenpond on Wed Sep 02, 2009 at 11:24:47 AM EST
    I worked for St Joe and my spouse still does.  Will be interesting to see who they send.

    Parent
    I had thought that once he returned (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by tigercourse on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:03:18 PM EST
    from vacation Obama would jump out their with some attempts to inflate his sagging approval ratings, fight for some policies he believes in (if those exist), just look alive in general. Outside of reducing government pay raises and taking an easy swipe at Cheney, he hasn't done much.

    You've got 3 or 7 more years of this Obama, get in the game.

    Just curious.... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:08:31 PM EST
    what made you think that?

    Parent
    Because I assume he wants to at least (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by tigercourse on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:12:48 PM EST
    save his own skin. And sitting around while his numbers and his party's numbers drop in a pretty steady line doesn't seem like a good idea.

    Parent
    He operates differently (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:30:40 PM EST
    He possibly believes his numbers will rebound as a matter of course. If you recall, he did nothing to encourage the demographic that left the party because he was certain they would come back on their own to support the D. That worked out for him, so I'm assuming he thinks the media will take care of this, too.

    He may even think he would do better at getting things passed if he was dealing with a republican congress.

    Parent

    He may get that wish. (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:36:39 PM EST
    I dread that because it would mean that the D's were such monumental failures that even the disorganized GOP could take them.

    Parent
    it seems weird (none / 0) (#76)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:22:41 PM EST
    every time Bush went on vacation his numbers went up because most people did not expect or even want him to "do" anything.
    Obama goes away for a few days and his numbers drop 20 points.

    I think coming out with a HCR plan, pretty much any HCR plan, is a step in the right direction.

    Parent

    Obama's numbers were dropping in the (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by tigercourse on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:28:29 PM EST
    weeks before he went on vacation as well. Healthcare is killing him and the only reason he isn't lower is the fact that the stock market has been humming along on a strong winning streak. As I understand it, he's weaker now then Bush was at the same time 8 years ago. That's bad news.

    Parent
    I heard this morning on the news (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:31:57 PM EST
    that his numbers have dropped faster than any previous POTUS. I have absolutely zero knowledge if that is true, though.


    Parent
    From the department of (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by CST on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:35:14 PM EST
    Maybe it's not such a good idea after all...

    Alberto Gonzales defending Eric Holder on CIA investigations.

    I hate it when people like this agree with me.  Oh well, Dick Cheney is pro gay marriage and George Bush is pro immigration reform.  Even a stopped clock...

    Well . . . (none / 0) (#1)
    by nycstray on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 12:44:26 PM EST
    here's hoping it was the Blue Dogs that crashed and the "left of the left" that kept riding' on forward . . .

    Ouch! (none / 0) (#2)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 12:52:22 PM EST
    At the end of the clip, you can see they weren't riding on the narrow, slick racing tires but heavier wider ones.  

    Ladies First (none / 0) (#5)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:03:29 PM EST
    BOSTON - Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley appears to be the first candidate in a special election for the Senate seat left open by the death of Edward Kennedy. link
    She had to jump in early (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by andgarden on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:05:41 PM EST
    because, presumably, she has no Federal accounts to transfer.

    Parent
    She loses nothing (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:04:02 PM EST
    by being the first out of the gate and everything to gain.  She wasn't going to take a pass if Joe got in anyway, so she might as well make it clear now.  I kinda like the idea of skipping the traditional coy little guessing game, actually.

    This is one tough lady.  A little too tough as a prosecutor for my comfort, but anybody even slightly to the left of a Blue Dog with her "take no prisoners" direct style is potentially a terrific asset to all of us in the Senate, I think.

    Parent

    Though I wonder what the rule is (none / 0) (#8)
    by andgarden on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:06:32 PM EST
    on her spending down her state accounts on ads talking about what a wonderful job she's doing as AG?

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#39)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:59:57 PM EST
    I would think executive offices would have something analogous to the franking rules, but perhaps not.

    Parent
    You misunderstand (none / 0) (#41)
    by andgarden on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:03:21 PM EST
    I mean the money that she's raised for her statewide runs.

    Parent
    Oh (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Steve M on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:05:41 PM EST
    Good question!

    Parent
    VA race (none / 0) (#9)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:06:56 PM EST
    WP had interesting editorial on VA governor race. If Republican's continue to put up whacko right wing Regency grads like McDonnell, Democrat's shouldn't have to worry about running blue dogs!

    I can't do the link but it was in today's e-mail

    McDonnell is a really scary candidate (none / 0) (#11)
    by andgarden on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:10:52 PM EST
    It says something about the cyclical nature of politics that he is favored for election in an Obama state.

    Parent
    Double scary (none / 0) (#19)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:20:20 PM EST
    It also says something about the people of VA if they vote for him.

    Parent
    WWJD? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:07:26 PM EST
    TEMPE, Ariz. - The sermons at this east valley church are stirring controversy and for some, causing alarm. Pastor Steven Anderson says he's a man of God, but some are horrified at what he's preaching.

    Anderson is standing by his controversial sermon, entitled "Why I Hate Barack Obama." Video of the sermon has hit YouTube, and he's taped explaining why he hates the President and praying for his death.

    theres video

    wow (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:39:44 PM EST
    I am listening to this.  not sure why.  but just wow.
    its more than an hour long and I am about half way through.  I may not make it to the end but I would really most like to know, among other things, is why anyone would attend a church in a strip mall.


    Parent
    This should make you feel better (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:51:20 PM EST
    that pastor makes problems for himself wherever he goes, apparently.

    Parent
    This gets better by the minute (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:57:40 PM EST
    the pastor refused to get out of his car at a border patrol checkpoint.  Became a 45 minute standoff that he filmed and posted to youtube.  And he was tased.  And he's suing :)  He fits right in around here :)  I can't invite him to dinner though.  I just can't do haters.

    Parent
    Double standards (none / 0) (#52)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:15:02 PM EST
    Always upset me. If this was a Muslem cleric spouting this hate and violence he'd be in jail in a matter of minutes and the right wingers would be cheering the action on. They'd even encourage water boarding to make sure he had no confederates.

    Parent
    Consistency (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by waldenpond on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:22:58 PM EST
    I'm the opposite....I think the right wingers would be consistent in protecting the free speech of anyone who hates Obama, muslim or not.

    Parent
    But this dude hates George W Bush too (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:27:25 PM EST
    He even says so.  And he hates Ted Kennedy.  He's an equal opportunity hater.

    Parent
    In Ohio (none / 0) (#64)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:31:59 PM EST
    A seventeen year old converted from Islam to Christianity and ran away to Florida from Ohio.

    The story     is a bit strange and I really want to know more - but....

    What would the narrative be if a she converted from Christianity to Islam and ran away from home?  The same?  Right now there's talk of "terrorist ties" to a local mosque.  Might be - but where is the proof?

    Look for this to be picked up by the usual right wing media outlets.  

    Parent

    At least... (none / 0) (#55)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:19:32 PM EST
    he's not all bad...refusing the orders of border patrol agents?  I can dig that, and would invite him to dinner on that info alone!

    And who knows, after the after-dinner smoke I might just be able to teach him the path of love is a much better ride than the hate train:)

    Parent

    you know (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:59:41 PM EST
    I know its marginal and fringe and all that but I honestly think this is symptomatic of something profoundly scary going on in our country.

    take a step back and try to remember a time when it has ever been acceptable for a preacher, however marginal, to pray for the death of a president from the pulpit.  seriously.

    why is this ok? at all.  period.

    I seem to remember an eight year old kid who happened to wear a t-shirt with something like "death to Bush" on it who got a visit from the secret service.  I definitely remember reading about a guy working out at his gym who just questioned Bushes sanity and got a visit from the secret service.  why is this being allowed without screams of protest?

    this is making me angry and giving me heartburn.
     

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    You want my armchair sociologist opinion? (none / 0) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:11:25 PM EST
    It's free :)  This country is so conflicted, we all believe in the golden rule or so we say but the actual economic mechanics of our society are dog eat dog and I'm not sure when they were more so than they are right now.  It's creating a lot of rage in citizens who then act out.  We all want to know who has done this to our meritocracy :)  People are very confused.  We were raised on the American work ethic but it doesn't work any more.  It never was perfect, but it's really broken now.  When it doesn't work we have no other form of action handed down to us in the cradle. Then we must rely on mysticism to figure out what is wrong, God must be mad at us or our leaders...something.  As more people become enraged, the crazy fringe gets even crazier because the social norm for anger and rage has increased.

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    I guess (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:25:04 PM EST
    but there have been other frightening and trying times in our countrys history even in my life - forget going back to the depression or WWII - and I dont remember the crazies getting this crazy.

    at least not openly.


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    Snipers in towers and on grassy knolls (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 04:57:19 PM EST
    Oklahoma City bombing....we've had some difficulties.  But we didn't have Fox News and we really didn't have the internet yet with all these camcorders and cell phones that can record clips.  I don't remember a lot of guns at political events.  I wasn't around in the 60's much outside of a stroller though.

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    I was around for all of the '60s (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by caseyOR on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 05:08:01 PM EST
    The only people I ever saw with guns were either police or National Guard. Except in the south. And that, I think, was due to the civil rights struggle. Lots of baseball bats, though.

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    Whenever I see film footage (none / 0) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 02, 2009 at 09:37:08 AM EST
    I can't help but connect with the spirit of the times.  It isn't until I read an activists story of the struggle that I realize a lot of violence was implied if not applied.

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    tased (none / 0) (#45)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:06:27 PM EST
    unfortunately this will only add to his allure for the full mooners.


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    Isn't that precious? (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:52:10 PM EST
    30 parishioners in a storefront last used to sell secondhand clothing. And a Fox News affiliate couldn't wait to share this with us.  I guess the gun toting AZ dude did inspire futher investigation :)

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    when you add this stuff (none / 0) (#47)
    by Capt Howdy on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:08:06 PM EST
    to the resurgence of right wing militia groups that is finally starting to be reported even by the MSM and stir well you get a pretty foul and frightening stew.

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    WWJD? (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 02:53:19 PM EST
    Well in LA he would use state funds to ride to church in style. :)

    In May, June and July, there was rarely a Sunday when the governor didn't board a taxpayer-funded helicopter to attend church services in far-flung parts of the state. He traveled by helicopter to churches less frequently in March and April. Over five months, Jindal took more than three dozen helicopter trips. Fourteen were to attend church services, according to state records.
    [...]
    The helicopter that the governor uses the most costs $1,200 an hour to operate -- about $45,000 for five months of church visits.
    link

    Maybe Jindal needs to take separation of church and state more seriously.

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    Maybe (none / 0) (#75)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 03:20:02 PM EST
    one of the parishioners could pick him up from the closest bus station.  He could really rub shoulders with his constituents!

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    Obama's science advisor, John Holdren, (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dr Molly on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:13:52 PM EST
    will be on David Letterman tomorrow night.

    Someone post the YouTube! (none / 0) (#20)
    by Fabian on Tue Sep 01, 2009 at 01:20:22 PM EST
    I have no TV.

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    Tuesday Morning Open Thread | 94 comments (94 topical)

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