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Monday Morning Open Thread: "I Don't Like Mondays"

He can see no reasons
There can be no reasons
What reasons do you need to be shown

...I don't like Mondays,

I want to shoot the whole day down.

How's your Monday going? This is an open thread, all topics welcomes.

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    If you enjoy meta on Mondays, be sure (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:19:36 AM EST
    to read Bondad's GBCW diary at DK and the comments.  

    First time I've intentionally clicked (none / 0) (#70)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:43:38 AM EST
    on DKos in over a year. Bondad put a lot of time and effort into the site. I can't believe how few user names I recognized.

    Really grateful for a site like TL where you can agree to disagree without the discussion turning nasty.

    [ Parent ]

    I'd say mostly re your last paragraph. (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:46:37 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Nothing on TL has ever descended to (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:00:02 AM EST
    the level of DKos' form of pure hate filled attacks. The only exceptions I've seen have been from regulars on that site coming here to try the same tactics. Luckily they soon were dispatched back to their origins.

    [ Parent ]
    As I understand it (none / 0) (#94)
    by The Last Whimzy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:16:35 AM EST
    If anything here did sink to that level it would be deleted.


    [ Parent ]
    Not always. (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:07:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I go there (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:00:42 AM EST
    when I want to hear people complain and whine without ever pinpointing who is actually to blame!

    One example:  Hunter's "Power Dry" post.  Who is to blame for the insurance debacle?  Lieberman!  Who knew that he controls Obama.

    Yes, the gang of 6 also holds some responsibility, but of course the hands of the Powder Dryer in Chief are clean.

    [ Parent ]

    D-I-Y Question (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:28:44 AM EST
    So, I'm replacing the light fixture in my kitchen.  Taking out an old fluorescent one which was mounted to the concrete ceiling by two large bolts.

    Before I take a hammer to them, does anyone know of a way to remove the bolts without doing a lot of damage?  

    I thought about cutting them, but couldn't do that below the ceiling level so I could patch and paint.

    will they not (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:31:16 AM EST
    unscrew?

    [ Parent ]
    Couldn't get them to... (none / 0) (#59)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:33:54 AM EST
    ...with the visegrips.  Unless there is some kind of bit I can use with the drill, I don't think they will unscrew.

    [ Parent ]
    somtimes (none / 0) (#60)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:37:09 AM EST
    a bigger wrench, more leverage, will work.

    if they wont unscrew you are screwed and its probably hammer time. good luck

    [ Parent ]

    there are (none / 0) (#61)
    by CST on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:38:28 AM EST
    bits you can put onto the end of a drill.  Also, a regular ratchet may work better than vice grips just because of the added leverage.

    [ Parent ]
    Thanks guys. (none / 0) (#72)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:45:07 AM EST
    Just to be clear, I got the nuts off no problem--its the bolts I need to get out of the ceiling.  

    I think a visit to the helpful hardware guy is called for.

    [ Parent ]

    ah (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:47:10 AM EST
    sorry
    I completely misunderstood the question.

    hacksaw time.  they are probably embedded if you cant access them from the other side.


    [ Parent ]

    Mile, what did you say in the first sentence, (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by easilydistracted on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:47:31 AM EST
    before the hyphen?

    [ Parent ]
    You lost me, Easy D. (none / 0) (#88)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:01:41 AM EST
    But then, that's a pretty common occurance--especially on a Monday morning.  :)

    [ Parent ]
    Something caught my eye and (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by easilydistracted on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:09:50 AM EST
    caused a chuckle. Its just my warped mind. Good luck with the project.

    [ Parent ]
    Ah! I get it now... (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:20:44 AM EST
    ...nuts, off.  If only it were as easy as that!

    Not quite awake yet.  It was a rough weekend to say the least.  Think I forgot my meds on Saturday morning and I'm still recovering.  At least I have the day off.  

    [ Parent ]

    Its all in fun, Dude. (none / 0) (#96)
    by easilydistracted on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:34:44 AM EST
    Enjoy your day off, and, be safe while you work on that electrical project.

    [ Parent ]
    Sadly, not much enjoyment... (none / 0) (#109)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:56:48 AM EST
    ...to be had.  Have a blood draw and a trip to the dentist in store for today.  At least it helps to be somewhat out of it for those two things!

    OTOH, playing with electricity gets my full attention.  Certainly adds an element of danger to the project though!

    [ Parent ]

    Why indeed? (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:33:01 AM EST
    Via Digby, Robert Reich on the Gang of Six.

    Just in case anyone was starting out their week thinking the WH was going to overrride what they came up with. Sorry to harsh your mellow.

    Taibbi on health care (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by lambert on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:57:27 AM EST
    Susie excerpts Taibbi's newest, this time on health care. She concludes that the sausage really is sh*t:

    I just got done reading Matt Taibbi's "Sick and Wrong," and I find myself saying, "Yes, John McCain and Joe Lieberman are right. (choke) Rip this health care bill up and start over." I'm calling my congresswoman today and telling her the same thing.

    I'm shocked.

    The story isn't online, so post by post, I'll give you the highlights in which Taibbi provides the answers to questions I couldn't find anywhere else.

    Excellent reading for anybody who still believes that the bills on offer do anything more than (a) bail out the insurance companies with the mandate and (b) force millions of us to buy junk insurance.


    Mr. Praline: 'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!


    I read (none / 0) (#93)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:09:51 AM EST
    on the Seattle Times web site that for an $80,000 hospital bill, Medicare pays $12,000.  (no I don't have a link).

    Medicare reimbursements are way too low. It's true that doctors charge too much, but Medicare +5% is just going to ensure that doctors refuse "public option" patients just as they do Medicare patients.

    The ideal situation would be if all fees for service were regulated (with regional fee adjustments).  No doctor could charge more and no insurance company could reimburse less than the regulated fee.  Of course something like that will never pass.

    Here in reality, doctors will only become  widely available to Medicare/Medicaid and "public option" patients if it's financially wise to take the patients.  Medicare+5% does not make it financially wise.  

    [ Parent ]

    Well if Medical Tourism becomes (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:46:58 AM EST
    even more popular due to affordability, the medical providers may soon be begging for more Medicare patients.

    [ Parent ]
    I find medical tourism (none / 0) (#111)
    by Fabian on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:01:04 PM EST
    gruesome in terms of social justice.  Poor people abound in those countries, yet their doctors and their hospitals are treating wealthy Americans.

    The smart thing to do would be to set up a medical tourism center in Mexico or Canada.   That way people don't have to travel so far and we can keep our dollars relatively local.  

    [ Parent ]

    The smart thing to do IMO (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by MO Blue on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:18:29 PM EST
    is to establish affordable health care here at home. That way people would not have to travel outside of the states and we can keep all of our dollars.

    [ Parent ]
    A secondary problem (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 06:33:33 PM EST
    is that the bill is inflated to pick additional dollars from Medicare... Of course if you have no insurance you pay the full amount.. and though your HMO may get a reduction your insurance premiums will keep going up...

    Speaking of this, I just opened a medical bill. Total billed was $1073, Medicare paid 262., and the supplemental insurance was billed $65.53. That's 31%.

    Either the bill is grossly high or the discount is grossly high. It can't be otherwise.

    [ Parent ]

    Bill is grossly high because the... (none / 0) (#143)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:16:54 PM EST
    discount is grossly high, or the discount is grossly high since the bill is grossly high...take your pick, like the chicken or the egg:)

    Some of the plumbing supply manufacturers my outfit sells play that game...an exorbitant not of this universe list price with a .15 multiplier (85% off) to the distributor who sells it to the plumber list less 50% who sells it to the end user for list less 25%.  That way everybody along the line thinks they're getting a great deal (85/50/25% off!), when in actuality they are working off a list price that has no basis in reality.  When end users call in for list prices for budget purposes, I have to tell them to breath and not to worry because no one pays list.  But I can tell them what they will actually pay because I don't know how bad the dist. or plumber is gonna try and hose them.

    Not all roll that way, I much prefer the more honest manufacturers...list less 40% to the dist., less 10% to the plumber, end user pays list.  But the obvious rub there is less wiggle room for the snakes to hustle each other...so most of 'em roll the shady way.

    Point of my rant being it's all an illusion, if your healthcare provider got paid $327.73 that is what the healthcare was worth...the $1073 number is total bullsh*t, either created by the medicare/insurance co discount or to make medicare/insurance co think they are getting a steep discount.

    Now if we can figure out a way for the doc to charge $327.73 and get paid $327.73, I think we're halfway to solving this problem...by getting rid of the illusion that creates the fog that enables the hustle.

    [ Parent ]

    WARS (none / 0) (#1)
    by lentinel on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 07:29:51 AM EST
    Robert Baer, former CIA field operative in the Middle East and the author of "See No Evil," says: "The notion that we are are in Afghanistan to make our country safer is complete bullshit."

    And Graham Fuller, former CIA station chief in Kabul, emphasizes: "Both wars have made the world much more dangerous for Americans and for any American presence overseas."

    Link

    I particularly like Baer's simple and direct evaluation.

    I hope that plain-speaking language of the people can be integrated into public dialogue.

    There is absolutely no substitution for the words "complete bullshit".

    No wonder the government has forbidden us to say it.

    Make that... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 08:53:47 AM EST
    a big steaming pile of utter and total bullsh*t...for the sake of accuracy:)

    And mind your cuss words lentinel...asterisks are a plain speakers friend on Talkleft:)

    [ Parent ]

    or be phucking creative... (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:00:51 AM EST
    ...with whatever bullsheet you are calling out or the aceholes you are criticizing.

    [ Parent ]
    John Conyers (none / 0) (#2)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 07:58:32 AM EST
    Along with Carolyn Cheeks-Kilpatrick may be in for the electoral challenge of their careers:

    House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers (D-Mich.) could face a tough reelection race in 2010, according to a new, independent poll released this weekend.

    40 percent of Conyers's constituents said he deserved reelection, according to a poll conducted earlier this month by the Lansing, Mich.-based Deno Noor Polling, in conjunction with the Rossman Group and Perricone Group.

    44 percent of Detroiters represented by Conyers said they would prefer to elect someone else. 15 percent were unsure or didn't know.

    The 80-year-old Conyers has served in Congress since 1965, making him one of the longest-serving members of Congress still in office. He could face a challenging reelection, though, due to the conviction of his wife, Monica Conyers, for bribery charges incurred while she served as President Pro Tempore of the Detroit City Council.

    Rep. Conyers has dodged questions about his wife's conviction, and it isn't clear whether the couple has maintained a close relationship in recent years.

    Still, 76 percent of those surveyed said the conduct of Monica Conyers wouldn't affect how they would vote for her powerful husband.

    Another Detroit lawmaker's political future could be imperiled by a family member's illicit political conduct, as well.

    27 percent of Detroiters said Rep. Carolyn Cheek Kilpatrick (D-Mich.) deserves reelection almost a year after she was almost unseated in a Democratic primary challenge.

    58 percent said that someone else should replace Kilpatrick, with 14 percent undecided.



    And Harry Reid (none / 0) (#3)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 08:02:34 AM EST
    Seems to be in some trouble as well...

    Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is trailing a top Republican challenger by 11 points ahead of next year's election, according to a new poll.

    The Mason-Dixon Polling and Research survey, reported Sunday in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, showed GOP candidate Danny Tarkanian leading Reid by 49 percent to 38 percent in Nevada.

    Tarkanian is a former basketball player for the University of Nevada-Las Vegas and recently announced his candidacy.

    The new poll also showed Sue Lowden, chairwoman of the Nevada Republican Party and a possible candidate, leading Reid by 45 percent to 40 percent.



    I assume Danny Tarkanian is related to (none / 0) (#11)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:27:36 AM EST
    ex-Coach Jerry Tarkanian?

    Cannot say it would break my heart for Dems to lose a Senate seat if it meant Reid was no longer leader.

    [ Parent ]

    Danny is Tark's son (none / 0) (#43)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:22:48 AM EST
    Played at UNLV for him.

    [ Parent ]
    Much of BBC Radio (none / 0) (#5)
    by bob h on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 08:54:01 AM EST
    this morning is taken up with this Libyan agent freed by Scotland.  There is talk of the Scottish government going down.

    Several kids from my hometown were killed in the Lockerbie bombing, and I have always been outraged by the deed.

    His Tripoli welcome was tasteless. But this man is terminally ill. Letting him expire with his family is just a gesture of decency. I just don't understand the furor.

    You don't understand the furor (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Radiowalla on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:09:58 AM EST
    and I don't understand the support for freeing a man who committed such a heinous crime.   So he is terminal?  Then, as I said on another thread, show him mercy by giving him excellent hospice care in the prison hospital.  Let his family come to say their good byes.   As it stands now, he has gone home to a hero's welcome and the victims' families are once more aggrieved.  

    I don't get it and I don't like it.

    [ Parent ]

    and (2.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:11:10 AM EST
    as I said above, do we start releasing every terminal serial killer and nutcase like Manson.

    and if not why not.

    [ Parent ]

    instead of giving me a 2 (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:41:25 AM EST
    try answering the question

    [ Parent ]
    I've been consistent in my stand (none / 0) (#79)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:49:53 AM EST
    in the case of Susan Atkins, and others with a terminal disease getting early release, otherwise, I'm for LWOP, as I consider that a worse penalty than removing someone from this vale of tears.

    Of course, you take it to the absurd extreme, not surprising, but hardly a way to engage in dialog if that is your goal in posting here rather than letting off a little steam.

    Let me quote Bugliosi again, since you seem to have missed it the first time:

    Others, including former Manson prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi, said it was a question of mercy. He told The Times it was wrong to say "just because Susan Atkins showed no mercy to her victims, we therefore are duty-bound to follow her inhumanity and show no mercy to her."


    Mandatory Link

    Counselor, your witness.

    [ Parent ]

    and Manson (none / 0) (#83)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:57:16 AM EST
    him too.  how about Dennis Rader the BTK killer?


    [ Parent ]
    If either were stricken with (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:01:58 AM EST
    terminal cancer, or another terminal disease, I would feel the same way.

    I've had experience with terminal cancer in my family, having been at my brother's deathbed when he passed away, I visited my mother before she died in hospice, and having two siblings die of cancer at the ages of 20 and 43, respectively, leaving me with no brothers and sisters at all.

    I would suggest you visit a hospice or spend some time around someone with terminal cancer before you judge me or opinions similar to mine so harshly.  

    [ Parent ]

    Radiowalla, do you want to join in as well (none / 0) (#90)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:02:59 AM EST
    or will you limit yourself to rating comments this time as well?

    [ Parent ]
    A couple of points for you (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Radiowalla on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 05:15:12 PM EST
    since you invited me to respond:

    (1) Since I have spent the better part of my professional life in the hospice field, I fully understand what it means to care for patients at the end of life.  Furthermore, I spent one and half years caring for my sister who died of lung cancer at a far too early age.  

    (2) You make a habit of drive-by downrating posters, tossing out twos and ones whenever it suits you and rarely responding to the substance of the posts.  You have been doing it for a long time and, frankly, it has been annoying me.  I recently made the mistake of downrating you when you attacked another poster.  I won't do that again since it is juvenile and scarcely worth the effort.

    (3) You would do well to take your own advice about mercy when you interact with others on this board.  It's not just for the dying, you know.  Maybe you can find that in the Bible that you are so quick to quote.

    (4) Good day.

    [ Parent ]

    Thanks for responding (none / 0) (#130)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 06:07:27 PM EST
    I'll take your points one by one:

    (1) Since I have spent the better part of my professional life in the hospice field, I fully understand what it means to care for patients at the end of life.  Furthermore, I spent one and half years caring for my sister who died of lung cancer at a far too early age.  

    Then you should be aware that there is little difference in the punishment aspect of prison if one has terminal cancer.

    I've already expressed my POV, if you respond to the substance of what I've written about mercy, that would be interesting.

    (2) You make a habit of drive-by downrating posters, tossing out twos and ones whenever it suits you and rarely responding to the substance of the posts.  You have been doing it for a long time and, frankly, it has been annoying me.  I recently made the mistake of downrating you when you attacked another poster.  I won't do that again since it is juvenile and scarcely worth the effort.

    I have responded to the substance of all the posts here today, so I've rendered your observation moot, at least for the present.

    There are other who match the description you've cited for me, are you as concerned with them when they don't annoy you as you say I have?

    If you have any problems here with what I write, I can tell you that JM responds to any concerns that are e-mailed to her at talkleft@aol.com. You therefore have that avenue open to you if you choose to use it.

    (3) You would do well to take your own advice about mercy when you interact with others on this board.  It's not just for the dying, you know.  Maybe you can find that in the Bible that you are so quick to quote.

    As I wrote here:

    Actually (none / 0) (#135)
    by Dark Avenger on Fri Aug 21, 2009 at 03:29:09 PM PDT
    I haven't stated anything against empathy for the victims here or anywhere else.

        Your judgmentalism throughout this thread suggests that you simply cannot relate.  Odd for a "Christian"

    My mother was a guest of the Japanese Imperial Army for 18 months until the end of WW II as a civilian POW while still a small child.

    ...........................

    I was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church, but I haven't claimed here or anywhere else to be a Christian.

    Any concerns that a Christian has with my comments can be best handled by consulting his/her spiritual adviser, as I'm only an amateur theologian.  :-0



    Mandatory Link

    TTFN

    [ Parent ]

    get a grip pal (none / 0) (#91)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:09:22 AM EST
    my mother died of cancer.  my father died of cancer.
    squawk all you want but keep your personal attacks to yourself.

    [ Parent ]
    I'm not attacking you personally (none / 0) (#100)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:44:40 AM EST
    but then, you could profit from this:

    "Detach yourself, Archie, personal resentment of a general statement is a barbarous remnant of a fetish-superstition."

        "If a man constructs a dummy, clothes and paints it in exact outward resemblance of yourself, and proceeds to strike it in the face, does your nose bleed?

    Fer-de-Lance
    Rex Stout

    Again, from the KJV, the Gospel According to Matthew:

    25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    Consider this:

    RICHARD (with suppressed impatience, to Brudenell). Look here, sir: this is no place for a man of your profession. Hadn't you better go away?

    SWINDON. I appeal to you, prisoner, if you have any sense of decency left, to listen to the ministrations of the chaplain, and pay due heed to the solemnity of the occasion.

    THE CHAPLAIN (gently reproving Richard). Try to control yourself, and submit to the divine will. (He lifts his book to proceed with the service.)

    RICHARD. Answer for your own will, sir, and those of your accomplices here (indicating Burgoyne and Swindon): I see little divinity about them or you. You talk to me of Christianity when you are in the act of hanging your enemies. Was there ever such blasphemous nonsense! (To Swindon, more rudely) You've got up the solemnity of the occasion, as you call it, to impress the people with your own dignity--Handel's music and a clergyman to make murder look like piety! Do you suppose I am going to help you? You've asked me to choose the rope because you don't know your own trade well enough to shoot me properly. Well, hang away and have done with it.

    SWINDON (to the chaplain). Can you do nothing with him, Mr. Brudenell?

    CHAPLAIN. I will try, sir. (Beginning to read) Man that is born of woman hath--

    RICHARD (fixing his eyes on him). "Thou shalt not kill."

        The book drops in Brudenell's hands.

    CHAPLAIN (confessing his embarrassment). What am I to say, Mr. Dudgeon?

    RICHARD. Let me alone, man, can't you?

    The Devils Disciple, Act III
    Bernard Shaw

    Mercy isn't merely for the sake of the killer, it is for our sake in that it defines us as a society.

    Are you're comfortable with demonstrating that you're incapable of rising above the level of someone like the BTK killer or Charles Manson?

    They would perhaps share the same sentiments as you if the tables were turned.

    I'm sorry that you lost both your parents to cancer, and that your hate and rage blinds you to the fact that there is no substantial difference to such suffering in or out of prison.

    [ Parent ]

    Have to ask (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by coast on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:04:15 PM EST
    You say that we should be merciful, yet you also stated that you are for LWOP.  How does that reconcile?  For those who don't get sick, you don't mind leaving them in a box till the end of their days.

    Mercy was shown to the prisoner in the fact that was not put to death.

    [ Parent ]

    I treasure mercy (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:19:09 PM EST
    but I believe that the best deterrent is the prospect of LWOP.

    I believe it's more merciful to impose a sentence that can be reversed if an innocent is imprisoned, than a death penalty which, by it's very nature, is irreversable.

    [ Parent ]

    hate and rage - pfft - (none / 0) (#103)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:47:20 AM EST
    you are a riot.


    [ Parent ]
    Those who treasure (none / 0) (#106)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:50:51 AM EST
    mercy over vengeance shall end up with neither.

    [ Parent ]
    oooo (none / 0) (#108)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:54:34 AM EST
    that'll keep me awake worring

    [ Parent ]
    That's all right (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:11:31 PM EST
    keep demonstrating your maturity level with your comments here, it lends so much credibility to your POV.

    [ Parent ]
    If they are on death's door... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:41:36 AM EST
    I say why the hell not?  Even Manson.

    Blessed are the merciful.  Lord knows we could use the good karma.

    [ Parent ]

    I expected you to be consistent (none / 0) (#71)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:45:07 AM EST
    but I assume you oppose the death penalty.  are you not at all worried that this has given the death penalty supporters their best argument in years?

    [ Parent ]
    How Do You Figure? (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by daring grace on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:50:51 AM EST
    We release them to die in 2 months. They stay in prison to die in 2 months.

    With al-Megrahi only in prison 8 years if he'd been sentenced to death over here, I doubt his appeals would have run out by the time the cancer takes him.

    So he still wouldn't have been executed.

    [ Parent ]

    It probably will... (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:54:12 AM EST
    give death penalty fans some ammo...but I'm big on doing what is right and come what may...I'm not gonna criticize mercy and compassion just because it gives death penalty advocates ammo in a debate....you do what your conscience deems correct, and come what may.  

    [ Parent ]
    I don't understand either Bob... (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:01:09 AM EST
    Chalk it up to the dark side human nature...the old "us vs. them" is a tough nut to crack...some people confuse true strength with weakness and defeat.

    [ Parent ]
    Perhaps some of it is (4.25 / 4) (#7)
    by nycstray on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:19:38 AM EST
    a sense of injustice. They could not be there with their family members when they were killed, yet the man that killed them gets compassion and to be with his family. That's a lot of hurt for some people to overcome. Not being able to say Goodbye and I love you . . . .

    [ Parent ]
    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:30:15 AM EST
    They were innocents who were brutally murdered who got no compassion.

    He is an evil being who gets unwarranted compassion.

    [ Parent ]

    Compassion... (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:38:28 AM EST
    is in such short supply in this world...we need more, not less.


    [ Parent ]
    I Can't Help It (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by daring grace on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:46:13 AM EST
    I favor a governing principle that is better than the indecency of our enemies.

    [ Parent ]
    Well (none / 0) (#21)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:53:37 AM EST
    We should never have a governing principle where mass murderers get slaps on the wrist.

    [ Parent ]
    Yeah... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:08:04 AM EST
    terminal cancer is barely punishment at all...a real slap on the wrist...its so unfair, damn you cancer!:)

    Or is the problem that karma took care of this guy, denying us our chance to make him pay to the satisfaction of the mob?

    [ Parent ]

    Nope (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by daring grace on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:09:24 AM EST
    and from where I sit being released to go home to be terminally ill and die in a few months is no slap on any wrist.

    Having lost my sister to cancer recently, I know the last 2-3 months are no picnic.

    Anyway, this is Scotland. I doubt he would have been released from a U.S. prison--military or civilian, which says so much about American civilization.

    [ Parent ]

    I wouldn't say 8 years (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:10:40 AM EST
    in prison is exactly a "slap on the wrist."  I would hate to get such a slap.  Is it sufficient?  Under ordinary circumstances, no way.  But to call it a "slap on the wrist" is absurd.

    However, the Lords of Karma or God or fate or whatever you want to call it have given him an early, and very unpleasant death sentence.  It's honestly not clear to me why that isn't enough for the vengeance-seekers.

    [ Parent ]

    because they ARE... (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:24:26 AM EST
    ...vengeance seekers.

    [ Parent ]
    As others have pointed out (4.00 / 1) (#104)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:47:24 AM EST
    That equals about 12 days in prison for every person he killed.

    Some justice.  Personally, I wish he could live 270 lifteimes so he could serve them all in prison.  And no, I cannot feel sorry for him because he has cancer.  Maybe that's karma and he will have an extremely painful and unpleasant death.  But it still wouldn't be enough for what he did.

    [ Parent ]

    Hope on a plane to Libya... (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:58:46 AM EST
    and stab him 500 times if it means that much to ya jb, hook electrodes up to his nuts and torture him...I prefer you (or any individual) do that, rather than petition the state to no longer be merciful towards dying prisoners.

    The state must be better, or else lets juts do away with the state and get on with the anarchy...be cruel and free instead of just cruel.

    [ Parent ]

    Which Speaks to The Inanity (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by daring grace on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:43:02 PM EST
    of equating mere penal law punishments with  'justice' for the victims since he can't serve 270 lifetimes in prison or be executed 270 times.

    So by that measurement, it's already beyond the means of mankind to effectively punish him, and afford the survivors that kind of relief or satisfaction.

    [ Parent ]

    Family members and loved ones... (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:30:53 AM EST
    of the victims I can understand, its everybody else I can't...the haters dancing in Tripoli and the haters stomping their feet in the UK/US...its like they're all in a big rush to finish the race to the bottom.

    [ Parent ]
    Dog (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by jbindc on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:40:07 AM EST
    Why can't others (besides family members) be outraged at what appears to be a huge injustice? By that logic, people here shouldn't be outraged at the actions at GITMO - I mean, hey, it doesn't affect me or anyone I know, so who cares what happens to them?

    [ Parent ]
    They can be outraged... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:05:55 AM EST
    if it floats their boat...I just ain't getting down with it.  Free speech rocks both ways.

    I do see a big difference between b*tchin' about government mercy and compassion and b*tchin' about government torture and human rights abuses...and I know what I'm gonna keep b*tchin' about.

    [ Parent ]

    but there IS NO JUSTICE for murder (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:28:02 AM EST
    never has been, never will be.  

    [ Parent ]
    There is closure. The families (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Cream City on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:59:34 AM EST
    had some sense of closure, if not for a long decade afterward until the conviction -- a conviction already tempered with mercy, because it was for a life sentence.  So the families could get on with their lives (look up and read what they said then).

    That sense of closure was ripped open for them last week, and they are taken backward to a terrible time.

    It's understandable.  And it's not for us or anyone to judge how they feel.  (It never is for any of us to judge how anyone feels, and it's fairly useless, anyway.)

    [ Parent ]

    Dancers in Tripoli (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:18:06 AM EST
    as far as I've read, are dancing because they fervently believe he did not do this and that Libya did not do this.  They may or may not be deluded (there does seem to be something less than an airtight case against this man), but they are celebrating the release and homecoming of what they believe to be an innocent man.

    That's a very different thing, obviously, than the widespread implication in the U.S. that they're celebrating the release of someone they believe committed mass murder of innocents.

    [ Parent ]

    Excellent point g... (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:49:19 AM EST
    Like when we hold a parade for our returning soldiers from Iraq or Afghanistan...how does that look to some Iraqi or Afghani who lost a loved one to a cluster bomb?

    [ Parent ]
    When was the last time (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by coast on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:38:13 AM EST
    you saw coverage of a parade for a returning vet other than by a local outlet?

    [ Parent ]
    Veterans Day... (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:01:24 PM EST
    every year it gets national play, but other than yeah its usually just local.

    [ Parent ]
    Can't relate to the dancers (none / 0) (#18)
    by nycstray on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:43:24 AM EST
    but I could see people who object to the release being able to empathize with those that lost loved ones and their passion steaming for there . . .  I wouldn't call it a race to the bottom though. And is it really hate if it is based in empathy?

    [ Parent ]
    Huff Post says Madoff has terminal (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:54:10 AM EST
    cancer.  Bet he doesn't obtain compassionate release anytime soon.

    [ Parent ]
    If His Crimes (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by daring grace on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:23:08 AM EST
    were committed 21 years ago, I'd say he had a shot. Also if he'd been in prison for the last eight years.

    Not to mention if an appeals court had ruled he had a strong case for revisiting his conviction.

    [ Parent ]

    its simple (3.50 / 2) (#25)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:02:45 AM EST
    what does LIFE in prison mean.  do we start releasing everyone who is about to die?  manson serial killers?

    if not why not.

    [ Parent ]

    in other words (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:04:03 AM EST
    the Scottish government just gave death penalty supporters their best argument in years.

    it gave them a valid point which have have not had for years.


    [ Parent ]

    Seems to me the guy did (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:11:56 AM EST
    get the death penalty.  It just wasn't the Scottish government that gave it to him.

    [ Parent ]
    completely misses the point (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:14:39 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    put it another way (none / 0) (#37)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:16:20 AM EST
    suppose Manson got cancer.  would you send him home?

    he didnt even kill anyone personally.


    [ Parent ]

    Yes, I'd send him "home" (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:31:20 AM EST
    Of course, Manson has no home or family who would take him in, which is an entirely different scenario.  

    [ Parent ]
    thank you for being consistent (2.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:33:17 AM EST
    if misguided.

    [ Parent ]
    I suspect charlie has an "extended" (none / 0) (#69)
    by easilydistracted on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:43:09 AM EST
    family that's just as wicked as he and one that would undoubtedly be more than happy to throw open their doors for him.

    [ Parent ]
    I MIght Not Release Manson (Myself) (none / 0) (#49)
    by daring grace on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:29:08 AM EST
    Just like I might not have ordered the release of al-Megrahi.

    But I'm glad to see that compassion reflected in the actions in Scotland. And I would like to see it more over here.

    But your point is well taken. In the U.S., our designated high profile 'monsters' face a higher hurdle before they merit any societal compassion.

    [ Parent ]

    Release Manson? (none / 0) (#101)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:45:17 AM EST
    If he had terminal cancer and three months to live?  Yes, I would.  He'd be no harm to anyone and he's already spent most of his life in prison.

    [ Parent ]
    Those who support the death penalty (5.00 / 2) (#68)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:41:46 AM EST
    would say, "He's no better than us, he deserves to die."

    And they prove the former by the advocacy of the latter.

    [ Parent ]

    Robin Williams to portray Susan Boyle (none / 0) (#8)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:20:52 AM EST
    It was fine (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:32:08 AM EST
    when he played Mrs Doubtfire, a fictional character.  But this sounds like a Saturday Night Live parody gone movie and it's just nasty.

    [ Parent ]
    I agree (none / 0) (#50)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:30:49 AM EST
    Can't even fathom the reason for this

    [ Parent ]
    Im sure you mean (none / 0) (#63)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:39:05 AM EST
    besides the ton of money it will probably make.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, there is that (none / 0) (#124)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 01:24:02 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    its monday (none / 0) (#9)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:22:11 AM EST
    Jeralyn, that song still frays nerves here. (none / 0) (#10)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:24:04 AM EST


    the third man (none / 0) (#20)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:52:37 AM EST
    In "The Third Man Factor," John Geiger, a fellow at the University of Toronto, presents many accounts of such experiences, and not only from climbers. Among those who have felt a ghostly companionship he cites Charles Lindbergh on his solo flight across the ­Atlantic in 1927 and the last man to walk out of the South Tower of the World Trade ­Center before it ­collapsed on 9/11. "Over the years," Mr. Geiger writes, "the ­experience has ­occurred again and again, not only to 9/11 survivors, mountaineers, and ­divers, but also to ­polar explorers, ­prisoners of war, solo sailors, shipwreck ­survivors, aviators, and ­astronauts. All have ­escaped ­traumatic events only to tell strikingly similar stories of having experienced the close presence of a companion and helper." Mr. ­Geiger's book is a highly readable, often gripping, ­collection of survival stories, alongside a survey of theories that attempt to explain the third-man phenomenon.

    the human brain is unfathomably complex (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:38:33 AM EST
    think about phantom limb syndrom in amputees.  or seriously abused kids who "lose track of their bodies" sometimes.  or hypnosis.  or on and on and on.

    hell, i've has psychic experiences in my life a few times that completely defy explanation.

    [ Parent ]

    maybe its (none / 0) (#64)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:39:51 AM EST
    Jesus

    [ Parent ]
    Orange sunshine was the culprit in my case (none / 0) (#73)
    by easilydistracted on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:45:34 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    pfft (none / 0) (#77)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:47:39 AM EST
    same here

    [ Parent ]
    John Muir (none / 0) (#105)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:48:21 AM EST
    experienced a similar phenomenon when he was climbing and found himself in a hard place, only he reported it as if some mind previously unknown to him had taken over his body and helped him to safety  without any idea of where that "intelligence" came from or how it worked.

    [ Parent ]
    yettie (none / 0) (#107)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:52:23 AM EST
    ?

    [ Parent ]
    He was climbing (none / 0) (#116)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:13:57 PM EST
    and in a tight spot, and then he was able to scramble his way to a safe spot, during which he said it was if there were another being had taken control of his limbs and his conciousness was reduced to the role of an onlooker.

    [ Parent ]
    telekinetic (none / 0) (#121)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 01:02:56 PM EST
    yettie?

    [ Parent ]
    Here's the quote from Muir himself (none / 0) (#126)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 01:29:03 PM EST
    and a link following that to Google Books from the original source:

    At length, after attaining an elevation of about 12,800 feet, I found myself at the foot of a sheer drop in the bed of the avalanche channel I was tracing, which seemed absolutely to bar further progress. It was only about forty-five or fifty feet high, and somewhat roughened by fissures and projections; but these seemed so slight and insecure, as footholds, that I tried hard to avoid the precipice altogether, by scaling the wall of the channel on either side. But, though less steep, the walls were smoother than the obstructing rock, and repeated efforts only showed that I must either go right ahead or turn back. The tried dangers beneath seemed even greater than that of the cliff in front; therefore, after scanning its face again and again, began to scale it, picking my holds with intense caution. After gaining a point about halfway to the top, I was suddenly brought to a dead stop, with arms outspread, clinging close to the face of the rock, unable to move hand or foot either up or down. My doom appeared fixed. I must fall. There would be a moment of bewilderment, and then a lifeless rumble down the one general precipice to the glacier below.

    When this final danger flashed upon me, I became nerve-shaken for the first time since setting foot on the mountains, and my mind seemed to fill with a stifling smoke. But this terrible eclipse lasted only a moment, when life blazed forth again with preternatural clearness. I seemed suddenly to become possessed of a new sense. The other self, bygone experiences, Instinct, or Guardian Angel,-- call it what you will,-- came forward and assumed control. Then my trembling muscles became firm again, every rift and flaw in the rock was seen as through a microscope, and my limbs moved with a positiveness and precision with which I seemed to have nothing at all to do. Had I been borne aloft upon wings, my deliverance could not have been more complete.

    Pages 64-65

    The Mountains of California, by John Muir


    [ Parent ]

    Well, that might explain (none / 0) (#97)
    by brodie on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:38:08 AM EST
    how Lucky Lindy could stay awake for however long it was (24 hrs or more) with minimal stimulants (maybe some early morning coffee before takeoff?) and not fall asleep even after getting only a few hours of fitful sleep the night before.

    Might also explain why he entitled his memoir, "We".

    I don't know about some of these mystical things, however.  

    Though I do know I suspect the official story about the Lindbergh kidnapping, and how it might have been a bogus cover story to protect probably the most popular man on the planet at the time.

    [ Parent ]

    Brunlett turns 2nd unassisted (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:57:12 AM EST
    triple play in MLB history.  MLB

    Or... (none / 0) (#28)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:07:17 AM EST
    ...the second unassisted triple play to end a ballgame in MLB history.

    A walk-off triple play.

    [ Parent ]

    That's right: (none / 0) (#42)
    by scribe on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:21:19 AM EST
    the 15th unassisted TP, and only the 2d walk-off unassisted TP.

    [ Parent ]
    Yep. (none / 0) (#81)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:50:54 AM EST
    And Troy Tulowitzki has one of those fifteen unassisted TP's.  He's also just the second player in baseball history to both turn an unassisted TP and hit for the cycle.  

    [ Parent ]
    Let's get specific here. How many (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:41:36 AM EST
    unassisted triple plays during day/night/away/home/astroturf/natural grass/dome/open games?  

    [ Parent ]
    Obviously my dream to write sports (none / 0) (#131)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 06:08:40 PM EST
    headlines is now shattered.

    [ Parent ]
    BTW, oculus... (none / 0) (#36)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:14:39 AM EST
    ...did you hear ESPN saying that Smoltz's start against the Padres yesterday was like making a minor league rehab start?  Ouch.

    Meanwhile, at Coors, a showdown of two of the best young pitchers in the Majors.  Rematch Friday at SF.  Should be a good one.

    [ Parent ]

    I am listening to Derek Jacobi read (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:18:57 AM EST
    Homer's "The Illiad."  Turns out Zeus, Hera, and Apollo are manipulating the outcome of the Trojan Wars.  That's what I think happened to the Padres yesterday.  Why us?  Why John Smoltz?  

    [ Parent ]
    Those of us over 40... (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:31:44 AM EST
    ...need all of the help we can get sometimes--even from the Gods of old!

    [ Parent ]
    As the Mutts' annoucer said (none / 0) (#41)
    by scribe on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:20:17 AM EST
    "The mets have found innumerable ways to lose this year."

    This, however, was one not tried since 1925.  

    My only question:  with two on, nobody out, and winning run at the plate, what were they thinking having both runners going?  The manon second, I can kinda see, to avoid a 5-4-3 TP, but, still....

    [ Parent ]

    The batter seemed to be personally (none / 0) (#45)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:24:21 AM EST
    offended by the triple play.

    [ Parent ]
    He shouldn't be (none / 0) (#56)
    by scribe on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:32:35 AM EST
    He's the guy who swung at the pitch, and who hit the soft little liner to 2d when a few feet more likely would have yielded a Texas Leaguer and tied the game.

    I blame the coaches, who had the runners going with nobody out.

    [ Parent ]

    Eric Holder (none / 0) (#51)
    by CST on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:31:02 AM EST
    Seems to be holding down the fort at the justice department pretty well.  He may pursue the prisoner-abuse cases after all.

    I read this weekend (none / 0) (#55)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:32:11 AM EST
    that its coming for sure.  I think he may be waiting until be release of the documents that are supposed to be released today.


    [ Parent ]
    from stinque.com (none / 0) (#99)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:41:49 AM EST
    With the Birther Sitcom on hiatus, WorldNetDaily has turned its attention to the next authoritarian cabal that will provide a pretext for enslaving (reality-dodging) God-fearing Americans: Swine Flu.

    The Pig Dawn scenario, in case you've been distracted by Project Runway, is that the Nazis subverting our Republic will use an H1N1 outbreak to declare martial law and put those reconstituted FEMA camps back into service

    I'm not surprised. (none / 0) (#123)
    by easilydistracted on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 01:08:42 PM EST
    My sister-in-law is of the same ilk. Her mindset is to see a closed door and say hello conspiracy. She gets quite a bit of her gobbledygook from the 700 Club, where for at least a decade probably longer viewers have been hearing that the religious persecution of God-fearing Americans and the second-coming, are imminent. One would think that sooner or later these followers would give pause and ponder,"Hey, wait a minute, none of this stuff ever happens. Hmm..."  

    [ Parent ]
    At my evangelical chrisitan h.s. in 1984 (none / 0) (#128)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 04:48:53 PM EST
    I remember an assembly/chapel service, where the principal of the school told the student body that the board of directors had just approved a 20 year plan for the school.  He then added that he personally didn't think the plan necessary since he truly believed we were in the end times and it would all be over way before that 20 year plan expired.

    But study hard kids, your future beckons.

    [ Parent ]

    All promise and no happen.. (none / 0) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 06:17:46 PM EST
    Reminds me of Global Warming.

    [ Parent ]
    Really? (none / 0) (#135)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 06:34:58 PM EST

    Steve Kramer spent an hour and a half swimming in the ocean Sunday - in Maine.

    The water temperature was 72 degrees - more like Ocean City, Md., this time of year. And Ocean City's water temperature hit 88 degrees this week, toasty even by Miami Beach standards.

    Kramer, 26, who lives in the seaside town of Scarborough, said it was the first time he's ever swum so long in Maine's coastal waters. "Usually, you're in five minutes and you're out," he said.

    It's not just the ocean off the Northeast coast that is super-warm this summer. July was the hottest the world's oceans have been in almost 130 years of record-keeping.

    The average water temperature worldwide was 62.6 degrees, according to the National Climatic Data Center, the branch of the U.S. government that keeps world weather records. That was 1.1 degree higher than the 20th century average, and beat the previous high set in 1998 by a couple hundredths of a degree. The lowest recorded ocean temperature was 59.3 degrees in December 1909.

    Meteorologists said there's a combination of forces at work: a natural El Niño system just getting started on top of worsening man-made global warming, and a dash of random weather variations. The resulting ocean heat is already harming threatened coral reefs. It could also hasten the melting of Arctic sea ice and help hurricanes strengthen.

    The Gulf of Mexico, where warm water fuels hurricanes, has temperatures dancing around 90. Most of the water in the Northern Hemisphere has been considerably warmer than normal. The Mediterranean is about 3 degrees warmer than normal. Higher temperatures rule in the Pacific and Indian oceans.

    Mandatory Link

    [ Parent ]

    Global warming is like (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 07:51:23 PM EST
    Here's the right (none / 0) (#139)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 07:55:16 PM EST
    Link

    Sorry about that.

    [ Parent ]

    Sorry to burst your bubble but (none / 0) (#141)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 08:58:50 PM EST

    Recent observed surface air temperature changes over the Arctic region are the largest in the world. Winter (DJF) rates of warming exceed 4 degrees C. over portions of the Arctic land areas (shown left). We provide Arctic temperature trends and changes of other primary surface variables (e.g., sea level pressure, precipitation, sea ice cover) archived in this climate summary, portions of which are published each year in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society.

    Mandatory Link

    and about that Daily Tech article you like to cite?:

    On January 1, 2009, an article by Michael Asher entitled "Sea Ice
    Ends Year at Same Level as 1979" appeared on the Daily Tech website. We have received many requests for confirmation and clarification on this article from media outlets and interested individuals regarding the current state of the cryosphere as it relates to climate change and/or global warming.

    .........................................

    Global climate model projections suggest that the
    most significant response of the cryosphere to increasing
    atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations will be seen in Northern Hemisphere summer sea ice extent. Recent decreases of N. Hemisphere summer sea ice extent (green line at right) are consistent with such projections.

    Arctic summer sea ice is only one potential indicator of climate
    change, however, and we urge interested parties to consider the many variables and resources available when considering observed and model-projected climate change. For example, the ice that is
    presently in the Arctic Ocean is younger and thinner than the ice of the 1980s and 1990s. So Arctic ice volume is now below its long-term average by an even greater amount than is ice extent or area.



    Mandatory Link


    [ Parent ]
    I translate (none / 0) (#142)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 09:54:49 PM EST
    colder is warmer.

    [ Parent ]
    If you look at the graph (none / 0) (#144)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 10:37:34 PM EST
    in the second link, you can see the downward trend for all seasons and the annual trend as well from 1900 for arctic sea ice levels.

    Of course, it's up to you whether you want to click the link or not, you can choose not to do so and be no wiser than you are now, or risk learning that the data doesn't support your POV.

    TTFN


    [ Parent ]

    I do wish (none / 0) (#145)
    by shoephone on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:50:39 PM EST
    the two of you would just get a room.

    [ Parent ]
    As Confucius said in the Analects (none / 0) (#146)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 11:56:28 PM EST

    Virtue (or the man of virtue) is not left to stand alone. He who practices it will have neighbors.



    [ Parent ]
    Scoping Bill's waves... (none / 0) (#119)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 12:39:22 PM EST
    marveling at Mother Nature at the beach was fun yesterday, but if I knew there was a national topless day celebration going down at Central Park at I would have much preferred to marvel at those creations of M.N.  

    Day late and a nickel short...what else is new:)  

    very cute (none / 0) (#122)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 01:04:04 PM EST
    dog commercial.

    I have been seeing this and I think its great.  but I couldnt remember who the commercial was for.

    Love that one too (none / 0) (#125)
    by ruffian on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 01:28:35 PM EST
    The Golden looks and acts so much like my old Ruffian that recently passed, and the Jack Russell reminds me of his buddy Sparky from the dog park who just worshiped him. Ruffy knew how to keep us all hopping to make him happy. Very cute.

    [ Parent ]
    Ghost has been (none / 0) (#127)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 01:38:27 PM EST
    playing the part of the Jack Russel for a week now.

    [ Parent ]
    Socraticsilence as you asked...... (none / 0) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 06:15:12 PM EST
    Socraticsilence - Re the Vietnam war and some of the problems caused by the activities of the Left.

    Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?
    A:  It was essential to our strategy.  Support of the war from our rear was completely secure  while the American rear was vulnerable.  Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m.  to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement.  Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence  that we should hold on  in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.

    Q: Did the Politburo pay attention to these visits?
    A: Keenly.

    Q: Why?
    A: Those people represented the conscience of America. The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win.

    Q: How could the Americans have won the war?
    A: Cut the Ho Chi Minh trail inside Laos. If Johnson had granted [Gen. William] Westmoreland's requests to enter Laos and block the Ho Chi Minh trail, Hanoi could not have won the war.

    I would disagree with one thing. It wasn't the conscience of America but rather the weakness of the Left and the politicians that came to carry their water. Mostly Democratic but some Repubs.

    WSJ interview with Bui Tin


    But, until we have a look at the archives (none / 0) (#136)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 06:45:28 PM EST
    Of the governing Politburo of Vietnam from that time, there is no independent verification of what he said, and as the Snopes.com page on this subject remarks:

    (The article notes that this interview was conducted after Bui Tin became "disillusioned with the fruits of Vietnamese communism" and left Vietnam to live in Paris, so it's possible that his comments may have been influenced by his changed outlook.)

    Mandatory Link

    [ Parent ]

    Yes, all critics of the Left's Vietnam war (none / 0) (#138)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 07:52:55 PM EST
    activities lie.

    (Sarcasm akert)

    [ Parent ]

    I'll be akert next time you post. (none / 0) (#140)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Aug 24, 2009 at 08:43:17 PM EST


    [ Parent ]