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Organized Protests Expected in Grand Junction for Obama Health Care Talk

President Obama will be in Grand Junction, CO today to talk about the health care reform bill. Right-wing activists are calling out their troops:

Organizers of what’s now known as a “Hands Off My Health Care” rally are expecting 3,500 to 4,000 people in Lincoln Park at 10 a.m., including tea-party and other activists from the Front Range and Utah, Wyoming and New Mexico.

“We are asking everyone to wear a solid red, white or blue shirt, show our patriotism and to contrast the purple shirts worn by SEIU activists,” Nancy Rumelt of Loveland said in an e-mail, referring to the Change for America campaign of the Service Employees International Union.

[More...]

Rumelt is associated with the 9-12 Project, which is an effort inspired by radio talk-show host Glenn Beck. Her group of about a dozen people will leave Loveland at 5 that morning, Rumelt said.

I wouldn't have picked conservative, Republican-dominated Grand Junction for Obama's talk. According to Colorado Governor Bill Ritter, he picked it because Mesa County (which includes Grand Junction) is home to health care programs like that of the Mayo Clinic and he wants to tout it.

As the national dialogue continues this summer, we are honored to host President Obama on Saturday in Grand Junction, which is home to one of the most successful community-based health care systems in the country.

In Grand Junction, President Obama will find best practices that have become a model for the delivery of high-quality, cost-effective care that every family deserves. He will hear about a community-based approach built on cost-savings, cooperation and innovation. He will see a template for the stable, secure and sustainable health care system we need across our nation.

Our national health care system stands in stark contrast to the successes we see in Mesa County.

Will the news coming out of the event be Obama's message or that of the protesters? Stay tuned.

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    So so sad (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by blogtopus on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 01:00:02 AM EST
    How many of those people protesting are going to lose a loved one or themselves die because of something they could have helped instead of giving in to pure, mindless hatred?

    Ironically, despite the fact that they live in a pure fantasy world, their main problem is that they don't have sufficient imagination to see things from a different point of view.

    Sad sad sad.

    Yep (1.00 / 0) (#7)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 05:39:59 AM EST
    disagreeing is hatred.  The war protesters were haters.  Hated the troops.  Knew it all along.  

    Parent
    i disagree with obama's current proposal (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Dadler on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:23:17 AM EST
    but i can tell a bunch of irrational, hateful fools when i see them.  stop being dishonest about these organized efforts to do nothing but spread lies and fear and intimidation.  or do you think barack obama wants to kill your grandmother?  do you really think that?

    what's really childish is yjr refusal to be honest about the origins and complete lack of rational discourse from these "protestors".  

    dishonest to the core.  

    let me know when your nose stops growing, pinnochio.

    Parent

    all about perspective (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by moderateman on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:03:36 AM EST
    > but i can tell a bunch of irrational, hateful fools when i see them

    What may be irrational, hateful fools to you may be rational, concerned citizens to someone else.  Come on now, let's not characterize the other side as people who all believe Obama is going to kill their grandmother.  They have a right to protest and if you believe 3000+ people are spending their Saturday protesting something they know to be dishonest, I have some conspiracy theories to sell you.  They might be selfish in doing what they're doing, but let's not make them out to be doing this as a pure powerplay.

    Parent

    Also, (none / 0) (#141)
    by NYShooter on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 03:08:57 PM EST
    watching the Obama team handing out a multi-trillion dollar check to the banksters, as a reward for almost destroying the world couldn't have helped either.

    You don't have to be Left, or Right, to have gotten the impression, "these guys don't know what they're doing."

    It's not irrational to believe this show of incompetance acted as a prelude to the Health Care debate.

    Parent

    Such hatred from you, not shocking. (none / 0) (#32)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:02:38 AM EST
    I don't think he's going to kill my grandma, she's dead.  I blame Reagan (that is when she died).  The other one died due to Carter, evidently.  Obama does need to remove Dr. Emanuel from his position on the healthcare taskforce.   I am guessing you think these are all hired and brought in by some evil corporation.  

    And you are known for rational discourse.  Point out where I wrote anything that is making my nose grow.  NOW!  I DARE YOU!

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#108)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:58:34 AM EST
    Why would Obama want an long-time oncologist who's a well-respected authority on both medical ethics and compassionate care- screw that!

    Parent
    Know What? (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by daring grace on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:02:06 AM EST
    You're almost right.

    Some Dem/left protests against Bush/Reagan etc. were just because people hated him and his ideas so much and had little or nothing to do with what might be called productive disagreement. We weren't going to agree no matter what so some of us may have headed out just to disrupt and try to derail the whole process.

    That's what this sounds like when you're basing part of your protest on the patriotic symbolism of the color of your shirt.

    Sure, there are people out there with reasoned disagreement to health care reform. This sure doesn't sound like the organizing call for them.

    Parent

    Hated the Troops? (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:05:11 AM EST
    You are stealing ppj's lines, but your inability to make a coherent metaphor is all your own.

    Parent
    Tell you what (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:56:15 AM EST
    when you explain to me how Health Care Reform is going to destroy America's Image abroad, wreck the Military, increase the threat of terrorism, kill thousands of Americans, and Hundreds of Thousands on non-Americans, then maybe the connection you draw will be a valid one-- until that point I see one issue that drew millions into the streets because it was a massive strategic mistep with tragic consequences, and another issue that will likely bring about marginal change but serves as a focal point for a radical fringe that:

    A) Can't accept any Democrat winning after being told for 8 years that they represented "Real America"

    and

    B) Especially can't accept a non-white Male in said position because it threatens their worldview- hence the "This isn't my America anymore" refrain.

    Parent

    I always doubted that Wiley (none / 0) (#92)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:07:09 AM EST
    Since about half of the protesters I was around were ex soldiers.

    Parent
    Ahh if everyone (none / 0) (#106)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:53:49 AM EST
    protesting Healthcare reform are haters then the same has to go the for the war protesters, right?

    Parent
    I see where you are coming from now (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:22:38 PM EST
    I want to hear people concerns.  Thing is, like the death panel situation....it doesn't matter if the whole argument is complete fiction - we have people reacting to it and attempting to stiffle the voices of others because no matter what anyone else says this death panel lie is an S.O.S. emergency.  If people have concerns about cost....why aren't they also protesting the military industrial complex, why didn't they protest Halliburton that completely ripped them off?  Why don't they want refunds from Halliburton?  Why is their anger and concern about how much anything costs centered completely around what a healthcare plan could cost?  If they are there protesting cuts to Medicare....I'll hold their sign for them!  But look, most of the protesters don't make sense.  After that call me very very suspicious about what their true motives are.

    Parent
    Poor Comparison (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:32:37 PM EST
    To say the least. Here are the groups behind the tea bags and the birfers and the health care protests. They all have something to gain from derailing Obama's reform.

    Certainly that was not the case with those who wanted to bring the troops home from Iraq. The hate is yours, or a rhetorical fiction of yours, not the war protesters.

    Parent

    Where Are Health Care Supporters (none / 0) (#105)
    by ChiTownMike on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:52:36 AM EST
    at these Town Halls?

    Other than on the blogs just where is the organized Left at in organizing to counter the GOP onslaught? Silent from what I see.

    How many thousands of people are at NetRoots Nation? How many of them will show up at Town Halls to support Health Care Reform and counter the GOP and get our own faces and voices in the news?

    It's pretty pathetic that the vocal Left is not turning out.

    Parent

    They aren't getting coverage (none / 0) (#111)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:00:47 PM EST
    Its just like the War Protests- The novelty of protesting RWs is such that the media ignores the presence of the Left- Yesterday for example at the Montana Town Hall- Pro-Health Care Reform Prostesters were at the very worst 50% of the crowd.

    Parent
    Slogan I'd like to see (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by NYShooter on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 04:13:49 AM EST
    Doctors + Hospitals + Other Caregivers >>>>>>= Affordable Healthcare

    Doctors + Hospitals + Other Caregivers + Wall Street>>>>>>= Rip Off!


    Actually Obama (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by ChiTownMike on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:40:13 AM EST
    did attack health insurance companies this week but it was only once, and once is not enough.

    Obama tactics are weak tea and are not going to get the job we need done. But then one has to ask what job does he 'really' want to get done. With Obama already well known for saying one thing while inside working for another I am beginning to wonder if we, as Frank Rich in the NYT suggested the other day,  are getting "Punked" by Obama.

    Parent

    U.S.A the pinnacle of healthcare ignorance (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by djw208 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 05:15:16 AM EST
    America sees itself as a Christian founded pulse of moral principles on the world stage.  However, how can you maintain a Christian position whilst damning a system wich offers healthcare for ALL?  What happened to treating others as if you would like to be treated?  What happened to the basic founding Christian principles?  Since when was selfishness a virtue?
    I am an American living in England with the NHS.  It is one of the best systems in the world and in terms of social justice, the United States is years behind most other developed countries globally.  America is a country which has some of the strongest Christian principles and yet stifles social justice in healthcare.  A paradox which the world finds tremendously amusing I can assure you.
    Please let me know how you reconcile this paradox?

    I weep (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by kmblue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 05:28:12 AM EST
    I have a pre-exiting condition and no job, which means no health insurance.

    Parent
    I meant (none / 0) (#6)
    by kmblue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 05:29:56 AM EST
    pre-existing, though pre-exiting might also be true.

    Parent
    Rep Dick Armey had to resign from his law firm (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by Saul on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 06:54:00 AM EST
    since he was one of the main guys getting the protesters organize against the Obama health care.(Freedom Works)  Too much negative attention was being received by the law firm so they asked him to resign.  He claims resigning was his idea but anyone can read through that.

    It's an intersting story (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 07:29:55 AM EST
    And I proves to me that no matter what's going on with the yappers, there's enough establishment support to get a bill through Congress.

    Parent
    *it (none / 0) (#15)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 07:30:07 AM EST
    "a bill " (none / 0) (#100)
    by ChiTownMike on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:32:29 AM EST
    Well of course "a bill" but that isn't necessarily saying much. The question is will it be a meaningful bill. Which is an important question because whatever the bill is it is likely to be the last one we see for at least another decade or so.

    We are going to get on bite at the apple. It's one and out.

    Parent

    What I want to know is (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by kenosharick on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:37:57 AM EST
    are the Dems going to be smart enough to use republican hypocrisy on some of these issues against them in their next campaign? For example, many of the repubs hyperventilating about "death panels" voted for similar provisions in the past. A commercial could ask, "Sen. Grassley says end of life counseling will lead to the government pulling the plug on grandma. Why did he vote for it 2006? Was he for killing old people before he was against it?"

    lets compare and contrast (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Jen M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:16:01 AM EST
    How these guys are treated at a Presidential town hall vs how protesters were treated when it was President Bush.

    Explain (none / 0) (#75)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:50:13 AM EST
    what you are going for 'cause it seems the crowd control for both presidents is fairly similar.

    Parent
    there were several occasions (none / 0) (#140)
    by Jen M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 03:08:35 PM EST
    when anyone giving indication of being anti-Bush were not allowed anywhere near a q&a

    Parent
    Hmmm - I get the sense that is (none / 0) (#143)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 03:30:08 PM EST
    happening with Obama, too. Enough plants in the audiences have been exposed to indicate these events are carefully staged and opposition is not allowed in.


    Parent
    that would be (none / 0) (#145)
    by Jen M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 03:45:17 PM EST
    terribly disappointing.

    If true.

    But I have seen nothing in the right wingish site I read.

    Parent

    I read about (none / 0) (#146)
    by jbindc on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 04:32:19 PM EST
    A woman at the rally held by Sheila Jackson-Lee identified herself as a doctor and asked a question.  Turns out she's not a doctor AND she was Obama delegate and OFA organizer.

    Found on Hot Air (and before I get any crap, this blog lists it as one of the "Best of the Other Side"

    Parent

    both sides have ringers (none / 0) (#149)
    by Jen M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 04:57:16 PM EST
    but I remember people being pulled out of the crowd where Bush was going to speak, even a story about men impersonating secret service to turn away ticket holders with democratic t-shirts.

    Pulled out, turned away and some even arrested. There was some brouhaha about a guy being accosted by secret service for yelling wirty dirds at VP Cheney in a destroyed neighborhood in New Orleans.

    Not to mention fenced in free speech areas well away from the main action.

    And didn't Denver have those warehouses converted to fenced cells a while back?

    Parent

    the bill is NOT a disaster to Americans (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by djw208 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:19:07 AM EST
    How can you actually belive that an NHS service for ALL is a bad thing???

    Any pro NHS bill is SENSIBLE guys.  Forget your socialist rubbish.  It makes me furious as a U.S born British citizen to watch Sarah Palin and other fools making such foolish statements about a service she has no knowledge about whatsoever.  These disgraceful excuses for human existance infest the minds of what would otherwise be rational people.

    How can you call yourself a good person and not WANT health support for ALL.  Whoever disagrees with this is crzy.  PERIOD.  

    I got a migraine night before last (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:23:56 AM EST
    probably from pulling up carpet and the dust from it.  I get allergy triggered migraines.  I'm out of any medication that is really effective too and I can't get an appointment for another two weeks.  So I take two Benadryl and climb into bed and Sicko is on cable.  I watch again and I lay there and fume listening to Brits and French talk about their quality of life.....and doctors that make house calls even.  I could have used one of those.

    Parent
    Oh man have I ever been there (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Jen M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:35:52 AM EST
    I can get 9 doses a month. Which gets wiped out in a week if I get a bad one.

    Fortunately since they went to generic it has been much much easier to get a refill early.

    Parent

    If you are "out" I would assume (none / 0) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 02:21:00 PM EST
    it has been prescribed before???

    When that happens to me I can call the Doc for a fax/phone refill to Walmart or go to the walk in clinic she is associated with.

    You might want to think about that.

    Parent

    some of these drugs (none / 0) (#142)
    by Jen M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 03:13:31 PM EST
    come with severe limits on how many you can take in a month.

    In my case there have been three reasons:

    1. it wasn't in their formulary (I switched to one that was)

    2. Risks (I have also switched because of that my current one is ok to take 4/wk in that sense)

    3. Cost. (which is why their going to generic seemed to have mysteriously eased up the 9 doses/month limit)


    Parent
    it happens a lot (none / 0) (#150)
    by Jen M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 04:58:45 PM EST
    people who never suffer migraines think it is so simple.

    Parent
    If mine weren't covered (none / 0) (#155)
    by Jen M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 06:54:03 PM EST
    I wouldn't be able to afford any at all!

    Parent
    If the current proposal were (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:50:03 AM EST
    anywhere close to NHS I would agree.

    None of the current proposal provide universal coverage and none are anywhere close to the NHS you enjoy. Many of us are not supporting it because of that.

    Think about it a minute. Would you be willing to support a proposal in England to replace your current NHS and use a trillion of your tax dollars to fund private insurance. Keep in mind you know that these insurance companies will raise your rates by about 87% over a short period of time, with each rate increase they will reduce there coverage so that you will be required to pay larger out of pocket expenses and that they are notorious for denying coverage when you need it the most.  

    Parent

    what's wrong with "organized" protests? (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Bemused on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:51:44 AM EST
      First, with the exceptions of extreme loners with very narrow grievances has there ever been an "unorganized" (as opposed to disorganized)protest?

      Second, when government officials and allied interest groups and persons ORGANIZE public fora to address issues of public concern what is the basis for using the fact opponents are organized as a criticism?

       

    What criticism (none / 0) (#102)
    by Steve M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:40:50 AM EST
    are you responding to?

    Parent
    Are you joking? (none / 0) (#112)
    by Bemused on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:02:03 PM EST
      Even if you fail to grasp the purpose of the headline using the adjective, surely you would have understood the unmistakable tenor of comments on many threads here and throughout which suggests protests are somehow illegitimate if they are organized by forces opposed to this legislation.

      This strikes me as ridiculous. Supportive people and groups organize events and activities to support and opponebts obviously do so for counter purposes.

       If people want to criticize the merits of  what the protestors say or object to the manner in which they express themselves that is fine.

    Parent

    Thread cleaned of comments (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:08:28 AM EST
    about Ward Churchill who has nothing to do with health care or Obama's talk.

    Neither (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:13:35 AM EST
    is your lack of understanding of the real issues helping.

    Insulting me doesn't change that.  You keep making assumptions based on the plan you wish was being proposed, instead of the one that is actually being proposed.

    You also "hand wave" off the working poor, they'll get subisides, etc, etc.  You base that on vaporware.

    I'm telling you what history has shown, not what your pie in the sky, and I'm going to say it, young and inexperienced, ideals show.  Because the truth is, you're making yourself look pretty naive about a very serious issue that our Congress isn't really addressing.

    Face facts, not fluff.

    I deleted the insult (none / 0) (#123)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:30:16 PM EST
    Please no personal attacks.

    Parent
    Great (none / 0) (#3)
    by kmblue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 04:58:54 AM EST
    Obama picks a conservative city, thinking that people will actually listen when he talks about nearby health plans.  Epic fail.  This guy is tone deaf.  And patronizing.  And a lecturer.
    Ain't gonna get no health care, thanks to this man.

    The problem with Obama's (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by Cards In 4 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:23:17 AM EST
    townhalls and all the other townhalls is that they are all trying to sell vaporware.  

    Every software company in the world would be laughed out of the room if they tried to sell a new program that is supposed to do all these magical things but they can't tell you how much it costs or what type of computer it will run on.  They can't tell you how it will interact with other programs or if it will make your computer crash.

    All they are selling is that it will improve our health care, not cost us more, cover millions more without rationing etc. All benefits and no cost.  After admitting they don't read the bills they expect people to trust them forgetting that people know they are politicians.

    Parent

    phooey phooey (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:26:42 AM EST
    We waste billions and billions and billions in the military industrial complex.  It completely evaporates and doesn't return anything tangible to any of us.  The sum that this program will cost us is paltry by comparison and the quality of life and limb it will provide to our population as a whole will be priceless.  It is the best investment out there right now!  The only one with real returns.

    Parent
    Then you agree that the only (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:05:15 AM EST
    way that we can get this with NO increase in taxes on everyone is by taking money from the military.

    Parent
    Did someone balance the budget? (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:45:09 AM EST
    The sum that the current proposals (none / 0) (#49)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:13:28 AM EST
    will cost us is basically a trillion dollar giveaway to the insurance industry and Big Pharma etc.

    There should be two objectives to any real health care reform legislation. it needs to provide good quality care for everyone and it needs to make health care affordable now and in the future.

    As it is now, the insurance industry continues to drastically increase rates each and every year and at the same time they increase the out of pocket expense of the insured and deny coverage when needed.

    None of the bills being considered by Congress provide universal coverage. Millions will still be uninsured and even more will remain underinsured. The CBO has stated that the House bill (the best of the lot) which contains a restricted public option will do nothing to contain costs.

    So basically our tax dollars will only enrich the insurance industry, making them even stronger to oppose, so they can continue their current practices.

    Parent

    If Obama or Congress (none / 0) (#61)
    by Cards In 4 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:25:23 AM EST
    were talking about paying for health care reform by cutting the military you might have a point. But that's not happening so I'm not sure what your point is.

    One of the first town halls was held by Russ Carnahan where he stated the bill would create a 6 billion surplus and people started laughing.  Politicians have no credibility when they talk about fiscal issues.

    If Obama had done what he said in the campaign where he ran as a responsible fiscal candidate (go through budget line by line) it might be different.  But he blew it with the Omnibus loaded with earmarks instead of showing some spine.

    Now he says he can overhaul 1/6 of the economy and it will not cost anyone making less than 250k. And he'll save money by eliminating waste.  And no one will get worse care.

    The government either does something effectively or efficiently with the military as a prime example.  It's effective but even the most pro-military congressman would agree it's not efficient.  Why is health care different?

    Parent

    Whether or not the military is efficient (5.00 / 3) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:32:13 AM EST
    has everything to do with leadership.  The military was very efficient under Clinton because there was no other option.  Good Lord....during the reign of Bush though money was literally thrown at the military, it hit the ground in huge bundles and bills exploded skyward and wafted in the wind.  How can any Republican say that solving our healthcare crisis is too expensive at this point?  The military is efficient when they are made so....the military industrial complex though is not simply the military....it is all the contractors as well.  How can all of our Republican voices constantly vote for heavy military spending but tell the very taxpayers to go eff themselves?

    Parent
    Puts one in mind (none / 0) (#71)
    by Spamlet on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:47:01 AM EST
    of the six-month pre-rollout PR campaign for the "secret" product later revealed to be the Segway.

    Parent
    I think you are underestimating the (none / 0) (#98)
    by Bemused on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:23:57 AM EST
     ability to create a desire for something without substance. software companies might not be able to sell their product to consumers without providing that information, but they can definitely sell more expensive and less useful ones to people by having good marketing when better products don't sell.

       And, as we learned in the 90s you might not be able to make consumer sales without that but you damn sure can get people to invest by making pie in the sky forecasts about things that don't exist.

    Parent

    Yep. (none / 0) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 06:15:16 AM EST
    It's too bad that he's completely botched the job.

    Parent
    Out of curiousity how would you have sold it? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:04:18 PM EST
    We've seen that both the Clinton method and the Obama method are failures- now that the two most charismatic and politically gifted Democratic Politicians of my lifetime have messed it up whats the Ga6th Dem method?

    Parent
    The main (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:20:24 PM EST
    problem with Clinton is that they didnt realize how fierce the opposition would be. The sad thing is that Obama and the same advisors didnt learn the right lesson: KISS. This is the lesson that Hillary learned because when she laid out her plan it was very simple during the primaries. Easy to explain and easy to understand. Obama undercut his own message and gave the GOP a huge opening with his Harry and Louise ads and lack of leadership. I'm not seeing Obama as much of a gifted politician. Being gifted in campaigning doesnt translate to being gifted in governance. It's odd that we just had 8 years of proof of that and didnt learn anything from it.

    Parent
    Honestly (none / 0) (#120)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:25:23 PM EST
    it seems like your making excuses for the Clinton Healthcare debacle that you would ridicule if they were extended to Obama- they didn't think it would be hard- that's hilarious considering the opposition Clinton faced when he raised taxes.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#130)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 01:17:22 PM EST
    I'm not making excuses. They made a lot of mistakes one of the main ones being they made it overly complicated. Obama is making the same mistake and he cant' explain the plan clearly. He can only give broad outlines.

    Excuse me but was anyone running ads against him when he raised taxes? No, that wasnt happening.

    Why do you continue to make excuses for Obama when he has many advantages that Clinton didnt have? Why can't he sell the program to the public? Why is he losing support?

    Parent

    Maybe because (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 01:30:15 PM EST
    Why can't he sell the program to the public? Why is he losing support?

    The plan is so confusing with how much it seems to be catering to the status quo that getting support from the millions of people who really don't like the current system just see it as a windfall for the private insurance companies.

    Support will show itself in great numbers when the plan puts a Canadian system in place and puts the private insurance companies in the background as supplementals.


    Parent

    I mostly agree with you...., (none / 0) (#144)
    by NYShooter on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 03:39:57 PM EST
    The Clintons realized (unfortunately too late) that the complexity of their plan was a low hanging target for the Right. They tried to recover by rolling out a nice, shiney, blue card (looked just like a Credit-Card) with the voice-over, "go to the doctor, flip out your card; go to the hospital, flip out your card."

    Of course any health plan, by definition, has to be complicated. What rightly belonged in the back room was brought out front by the Republicans who knew the public only understands sound bites.

    But, in any case, the total volume of obstacles Clinton faced: Blitzkrieg-like opposition from the Right, unhelpful media, Hillary Hatred, and luke-warm Democratic "support" was just too much to overcome.

    Obama has to face some of these things, but not all. I'd be surprised if the Clintons aren't privately thinking, "Man, with everything Barack had going for him, he should have a gold-plated bill on his desk to sign by now."

    Parent

    well, (none / 0) (#10)
    by bocajeff on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 06:18:11 AM EST
    why don't you have health care?

    Parent
    It is someone (none / 0) (#13)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 07:26:37 AM EST
    else's fault?  

    Parent
    It sure is someone else's fault (none / 0) (#54)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:17:37 AM EST
    She/he has a pre-existing condition and is unemployed. Try getting coverage under those conditions. Unless you have unlimited funds, there is no way you can do it.

    Parent
    Not true at all, (none / 0) (#85)
    by bocajeff on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:58:14 AM EST
    there are state programs, federal programs (medicare, medicaid, etc...) private trusts, public hospitals, etc... Not to mention things like private charities...

    Parent
    No, I'm sorry, there are not (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:02:55 AM EST
    I'm dealing with this with my daughter right now and there are not such programs available.  List your evidence please.

    Parent
    Ah, the private charities canard (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:03:29 AM EST
    The tax burden is at historically low levels.  Something like 19% of GDP. Why aren't all you charity folks taking care of all our social needs?

    The churches have never been able to do it all.  

    The fictions--without any data or evidentiary support--that conservatives will toss off in knee jerk fashion to try and get rid of FDR's New Deal.....  

    Parent

    Have you ever really looked into those (5.00 / 4) (#95)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:10:09 AM EST
    other options?

    In my state, if you are uninsured for any period of time, once you achieve being insured again, anything that has been diagnosed or was treated previously becomes a pre-existing condition that can be denied coverage for the first six months under the new insurance. Of course, the new employment would make you no longer eligible for those other options to get you through those 6 months, as well.

    People should not have to run to substandard options just because they are unemployed. Universal HealthCARE needs to be part of our society NOW.


    Parent

    Yeah, I'm enrolled in one of those (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by easilydistracted on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:16:44 AM EST
    state-sponsored programs many folks talk about. Its expensive. After COBRA elapsed, private insurers refused me coverage because of diabetes. I ultimately enrolled in the state sponsored "high-risk" pool. My monthly premium is 600.00 and change. For that I get a 7500.00 annual deductible and three doctor's visits annually at the negotiated rate. 1500.00 annual deductible before prescription benefits kick-in with a maximum annual payment of 1500.00 until the 7500.00 annual deductible is met. The monthly premium increased 10% effective August 1.      

    Parent
    Good God (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:47:23 AM EST
    Do you feel demoralized?

    Parent
    I suppose that's one way to put it, MT (none / 0) (#113)
    by easilydistracted on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:03:12 PM EST
    I can think of many more -- and some that would undoubtedly cause Jeralyn to issue me a life-time ban.

    Parent
    I'm very very sorry (none / 0) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:38:38 PM EST
    for your current state of living....which seems to encourage a whole lot more dying than living.  This is my country.  This is not how I intend for anyone to have to live!  I do what I can for that to be the reality.  We all deserve healthcare that doesn't destroy our lives.

    Parent
    OCULUS, come here and read this.... (none / 0) (#131)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 01:19:10 PM EST
    now can you see why I'm going to remain naive enough to continue wanting private companies to build in some compassionate concern for the people whether it dings their bottom line or not?

    easilydistracted, I'm so sorry to hear what you're up against. Have you written to your Rep and Senators to explain how the current system impacts you and your family?

    $600 a month premiums +$7,500 deductible is an awfully high price to then find yourself under such restrictive control.

    The prescription limits are even more infuriating. I have a bunch of test strips and meters from my mom who was a mild type 2 diabetic. When she died recently, we had to properly dispose of her prescription medications because we couldn't find a legal way to get them to others who needed them (we filled to bulging a 1 gallon ziploc).


    Parent

    And that's just my coverage... (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by easilydistracted on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 01:50:51 PM EST
    my wife is under another plan with a private insurer, which costs 325.00 monthly. Oh, I've written and complained plenty.

    I've noticed that many people that enjoy employer-sponsored insurance are totally oblivious to the problems surrounding private insurance. In fact, some just flat refuse to believe that a person will be denied coverage on the basis of some sort of preexisting condition (like mine). These issues are not always manifested in employer-sponsored programs. Those folks will never understand or even admit a problem, until they are faced with it.    

    Parent

    Expensive is an understatement (none / 0) (#147)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 04:46:53 PM EST
    There are quite a lot of people who can not afford a $7,200 a year premium let alone pay for treatment until the deductible is satisfied. For them, there are no good options. Not that this is a good option for you either.

    Unfortunately, many people are not destitute enough to qualify for any type of assistance and too poor to get insurance coverage.

    Parent

    It's not (none / 0) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 06:14:29 AM EST
    the location that's the problem. If he went to NYC to sell this he would be accused of "hiding out" with his base. The problem is that he's completely botched the job so far. He's doing a townhall to sell a package that isnt even finished and nobody is really sure what's going to be in it? And then he starts lecturing people in these town halls too and that really turns people off.

    The final bill will be writtnen (none / 0) (#65)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:38:57 AM EST
    in Conference.  

    Before you get there, you need to pass something.  I think Obama and a couple of Senators already have a good idea what the final bill will look like.

    Parent

    have (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:29:17 PM EST
    a good idea isnt good enough for most people. They want to know exactly what it's going to be and all Obama gives is vague outlines and platitudes.

    Parent
    Unions (none / 0) (#11)
    by koshembos on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 06:33:38 AM EST
    I am relieved to hear that union members will be in the audience hopefully to deal with disturbances. It should have happened much earlier. In Bush days, when someone happen to stage a quite demonstration inside a hall with a Bush speaker, the police would carry them out and even charge them with something. It's time for us to watch real staged disturbances stopped by the disturbing people carried out the hall by union members.

    Obama should have done the job long ago, but I guess he spent his fight on swiftboating Hillary in the primaries and hasn't recovered yet.

    What you are calling for is violent actions (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:10:02 AM EST
    carried out by people who agree with your political position.

    It's time for us to watch real staged disturbances stopped by the disturbing people carried out the hall by union members.


    Parent
    The conservatives have already crossed (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:45:43 AM EST
    that threshold....The protestors are not all that numerous--but they are sure are obedient-they follow the "yell and shout" memo to a "T."

    But let the conservatives think they are "winning" by sending out a few hundred to a few rallies.  It really is pathetic.  These protestors have no idea what they are saying but they sure are angry the Democrats are in power.  They sure do take direction well from their corporate big money Republicans.

    Deathers and Birthers--this is the best of conservative thought?  

    Parent

    The only violent act that I am (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:58:39 AM EST
    aware of was committed by the pro health care people in Tampa and St. Louis beating two men up.

    Perhaps you can show otherwise.

    BTW - Screaming at your Congresscritter or the President is not an act of violence.

    Parent

    I agree screaming at (5.00 / 0) (#129)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 01:15:57 PM EST
    a member of Congress is not illegal.  So, you would agree that Crowley was wrong to arrest Gates?  If you don't say yes, then you would have to agree that the screamers at the townhalls should be subject to arrest.

    Screaming at the townhalls shows how pathetic and impotent conservatives are that all they can do is shout slogans.

    During the 2008 campaign, Obama drew crowds in excess of 100,000.   Wingers have a couple hundred of nuts, who scream and yell slogans, and they think they are "winning."

    As to violence, where have you been.  Dr. Tiller.  And, the Obama has received twice the threats the Bush did.  You guys are stoking inarticulate hatred based on lies.

    Parent

    Non-sequitors by the dozens (none / 0) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 04:53:44 PM EST
    ill logic by the score..

    Everyday reform support

    gets closer to the floor...

    With apologies to Buck Owens and Guy Mitchell...

    Twice the number of threats? Link please.

    BTW - Seeing as how I am a social liberal who is an Independent you'll have to snark at someone else...

    Parent

    lol (none / 0) (#94)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:08:40 AM EST
    A far cry from your calling for shooting looters, no?

    Parent
    Screaming at your (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:00:24 PM EST
    elected representatives is the same as shooting looters by the police AFTER they have refused to quit looting?

    Who knew?

    Parent

    The person(s) doing these despicable acts may (none / 0) (#151)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 04:59:45 PM EST
    or may not be (gasp) a Conservative. Both sides have seen tricks pulled.

    And if I had to chose between being beaten so badly as to need to go the ER or having a swastika painted on the sign to my office I'll take the paint job.....

    Parent

    Yes, I know.... to you eveyone is lying except (none / 0) (#156)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:34:38 PM EST
    Obama.

    Parent
    But andgarden (none / 0) (#17)
    by kmblue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:06:48 AM EST
    will the bill be any good?  I believe without a public option, they might as well not bother.

    Honestly, I think it is worth doing (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:39:06 AM EST
    even without the public option, even though having one would be vastly preferable. The individual mandate solves a multitude of problems, especially because of the regulations that accompany it.

    Parent
    I'm fine with insurance companies (none / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:38:28 AM EST
    having to be accountable.  Obama keeps talking about insurance companies not being able to deny anyone coverage for pre-existing conditions or dropping people.  I haven't heard anything about  all the denials they throw at all of us though at this point.  Legislation that prevented the insurance companies from denying and dropping and capping all of us though is a start for me.  It won't get our huge class of working poor coverage though.  And that is an issue that will not go away until we make it go away.  Sadly though.....our poor have become so demoralized that if they shut up the middle class (who is totally losing it because having a family member with serious health issues ends up bankrupting us no matter how long or how much we paid in insurance premiums), it will be a harder road for the poor to get what they must have.  And in this economy how many of us can continue to afford our enormous insurance premiums?

    Parent
    The subsidies they're talking about (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:40:36 AM EST
    ought to be enough to get the working poor insured.  I would be very much against a plan that didn't.

    Parent
    I think you have bought into the (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:20:07 AM EST
    myth that as long as you have insurance, you have care, and that simply is not the case.  There are a lot of people now who have insurance, but between co-pays and deductibles, still cannot afford to get the care they need.

    The subsidies will go right into the coffers of the insurance industry, guaranteeing them a possible trillion dollar bonanza, with no guarantee to those it is insuring that the coverage under these subsidized policies will provide much benefit.

    What if, for example, you make too much to qualify for subsidy, and the only policies you can afford have a $10,000 deductible?  If you have to shell out $10,000 before the first dollar of service is covered, what are the chances that you can actually afford the care you need?  What are the chances you will get the care you need?  The insurance company is the only one in this arrangement that derives a benefit from that policy.  And that is their business plan, that is what their stockholders and Wall Street expect of them - that they will make tons more money than they ever pay out.

    I wish you could outline your thinking on why "something is better than nothing," why even without any kind of "public option," it is better to push this particular reform plan, and how you envision the current proposals actually (1) improving access to care, (2) reducing the drag on the economy and (3) not putting us right where we are now in relatively short order.

    Oh, and I would love to know what you think the benefit to the people is to delay implementation for another 3+ years, and what you think the political fallout from that delay will be.

    Parent

    Based on your objections (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:24:02 AM EST
    all insured people should cancel their coverage because it's completely worthless.

    Parent
    It's pretty close to that (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:49:00 AM EST
    when the only affordable coverage is catastrophic coverage.

    My deductible is $3000.  I pay a monthly premium of about $300/mo for it, knowing that unless something really drastic happens, I'll get absolutely no money out of my insurance company at all...other than the fact that I'll get the rate of cost for doctor's visits that the insurance companies have negotiated.

    This is a Blue Cross plan, the best price/deductible compromise I can get on the individual market.

    I hate to say it, but you're making assumptions about things for which you have no experience and no factual basis.  And you're basically getting it all wrong.

    Parent

    Somehow the group plans (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:52:50 AM EST
    that most employed people get are good enough. If reform moves most people in that direction, that's a good thing.

     I have a feeling that nothing short of closing down insurance companies by fiat would be good enough for you.

    Parent

    Have you ever (5.00 / 3) (#91)
    by Spamlet on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:05:35 AM EST
    been unemployed, or self-employed, and tried to get insurance coverage, even without a so-called pre-existing condition (insurance company euphemism for "We'll take your premiums as long as you stay healthy--not that we'll cover preventive services in any real way--but watch out if you ever actually get sick").

    I'm not speaking for anyone else, but--yes, I would be very happy to see health insurance companies closed down by fiat, and all their employees invited to work in a national health service providing universal health care coverage.

    I don't expect that to happen, and like you I think something is better than nothing. But that doesn't mean I think it will be good.

    Parent

    LOL (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:25:38 AM EST
    What would be good for me is premium and coverage control.  That's what we need and what isn't being addressed hardly at all, if at all.

    We don't need to put more people on bad insurance.  What we need is to get more people HEALTH CARE, not just health insurance.  What they're proposing now, is nothing short of the status quo on steroids if the idea is HEALTH CARE.

    The people who are on good employer sponsored programs aren't really at the heart of the problem. The people who aren't insured, aren't so, because they're underemployed, unemployed, or uninsurable.  Or, they're people, like me who are on individual insurance plans.  Or they're people who have JUNK insurance through their employers.

    That's the whole point of this health insurance "reform".  It's not about people who have great group insurance.  The problem lies in the fact that many people DON'T have access to great group insurance.

    Parent

    Actually, the deep rooted problem (none / 0) (#128)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:59:40 PM EST
    That's the whole point of this health insurance "reform".  It's not about people who have great group insurance.  The problem lies in the fact that many people DON'T have access to great group insurance.

    has a lot to do with people who have great group insurance. No one goes without a deductible that I'm aware of. But, the people with great insurance coverage who can afford the side costs of the deductible, co-pays (if they have them), and 20% share of costs often abuse the system to the point where they spend the equivalent of 6 people's premiums on their over-use of doctors.

    I can't tell you how many people I've heard exclaim how great their insurance is...and they know that because they run to the doctor for everything to squeeze as much as they can from it.


    Parent

    I'm on both sides on this (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:29:17 PM EST
    I switched to a high deductible/health savings account plan with Anthem (BCBS) last year that has a  $1500 deductible. The premium was $475. Because Colorado has passed a law preventing the insurance companies from increasing premiums to unhealthy groups, Anthem said it had to eliminate the discount for healthy groups. My premium for the same policy went up to $685 a month this year. And next year, when my age bracket changes, it will be $1,000 a month. It's a good policy, there's no co-pay and it covers 100% of everything, including brand name and generic drugs, hospital stays, doctor visits, preventive care, etc. after the deductible is satisfied, but the premium increases are huge.

    Parent
    That problem (none / 0) (#135)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 01:52:18 PM EST
    is exactly why there has to be an individual mandate.

    Parent
    You know, I'd actually love to see that happen (5.00 / 0) (#87)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:01:49 AM EST
    I wonder how many health insurance companies would collapse if all their insureds who could not afford to use the insurance just dropped their policies. I think the country would be shocked to find out how many there are.

    And, when you think about it...those people who are getting insurance from their employers, but are unable to use it for the surrounding costs being too high, are actually the ones who are providing for the people who run themselves and their kids to the doctor for every sniffle.

    Parent

    False and hyperbolic (none / 0) (#76)
    by Spamlet on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:50:22 AM EST
    I think you're directing your objections (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:53:25 AM EST
    to the wrong person.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Spamlet on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 11:00:19 AM EST
    Directed to you, and you're much better than that response.

    Anne made good points, imo, and asked good questions. You didn't address them--maybe because you objected to being told that you had bought into a myth?

    But you are both intelligent commenters, and I was disappointed not to see a real exchange there.

    Parent

    Per Michael Brenner (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:42:37 AM EST
    Some small subsidies for the working poor. These last are minimal. Someone earning $20,000 a year will get no subsidy unless insurance premiums reach $2,400 -- according to the Finance Committee bill. Good luck all you folks who work for $10 an hour -- you'll need it.

    And the finance committee bill is the one everyone presumes will be mostly the final bill.

    Subsidies, LOL.  Don't get fooled by buzz words, Andgarden.

    Link

    Parent

    The finance committee isn't good enough (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:45:11 AM EST
    for me. And honestly, with a mandate, there will soon be political pressure to either increase subsidies or bring costs down.

    Some initial pain will be required.

    Parent

    That is just what poor people need (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:57:12 AM EST
    more financial pain.

    These same people also have the very least amount of political leverage.

    Parent

    Once again (none / 0) (#82)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:55:14 AM EST
    you're making assumptions with no factual basis.

    About Medicare Part D, Democrats on blogs were sure that when Democrats took control, the ability to negotiate prices with drug companies would become part of Part D.  

    Obama once again gave that store away.

    The end result of this health care reform will likely be the same as Medicare Part D was with pharma.  We'll give the store away to insurance and pharma, and that's the way it will stay.  The reality is these industries, not us, own Congress and we have no power against them.

    This legislation will be BAD for the working poor.  And the "at least it's a start" notion is not workable.

    Parent

    I haven't looked at the subsidy (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:43:35 AM EST
    portion of it.  There are single moms here working for $7 an hour.  Will the subsidy cover the entire expense for them because they aren't even eating properly right now, there is no extra money of any kind for to pay out to an insurance premium.

    Parent
    I don't know the details (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:45:59 AM EST
    But the truth is that people who are so poor should probably already be eligible for Medicaid.

    Parent
    They aren't (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:52:27 AM EST
    This is one of the issues my daughter faces as soon as her divorce is final.  She has Tricare for six months after that and then she is on her own.  The kids can get Medicaid, but they don't need it....they will both be currently covered under Tricare.  She does not qualify for Medicaid.  She will be going back to school.  When I was in school Blue Cross Blue Shield was available to all of us but that was sort of a long time ago and a different part of the country.  Don't know what student insurance is available here.

    Parent
    Absolutely talk to the school (none / 0) (#29)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:57:11 AM EST
    There's probably a group rate available.

    I don't see why she can't get Medicaid, but depending on the state she might be eligible for SCHIP.

    Parent

    I don't poke her too much about (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:03:54 AM EST
    details right now, because divorce isn't fun to go through and she is expecting the second child around the first of November.  She's living with us.  We are very fortunate that this house has a sort of grandmother's suite at one end with its own entrance...so she can have some privacy.  Zoe sleeps in her room right now.  After the new one gets here, Zoe will move to my end of the house.  And that's fine because we are going to be short one person down there when my husband leaves for Afghanistan around the middle of September.  I try to give her some space.  She made an appointment to begin to figure out how she will take care of things in her near future and came home very upset, said she qualified for no health insurance help.....isn't SCHIP run out of family services as well?

    Parent
    You live in Alabama, yes? (none / 0) (#35)
    by andgarden on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:08:15 AM EST
    This chart may be of some help.

    It seems that Alabama doesn't give SCHIP coverage to adults with children, which is too bad.

    Parent

    Yes, we are in Alabama (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:13:38 AM EST
    Can you believe how red this state is too?  The martyr syndrome really depressed me when we first moved here.  It is literally a cultural dynamic.  My husband equates the mentality to some of that that he has experienced in the Middle East....sort of an "it's God's will" for us to suffer approach to life.

    Parent
    I don't know about your school (none / 0) (#63)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:35:07 AM EST
    But student insurance at University of Washington is awful.

    Not a good option at all.  And expensive for what little you get.

    Parent

    We aren't sure which college she'll go to (none / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:41:19 AM EST
    as she has two very good options for the nursing program she desires that would allow me to help with the kids.  A lot of my family is in the field too.  I'm glad to have discussed this here because I suppose available insurance should also be a consideration for her.

    Parent
    If her ex-husband to be is military (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:14:55 AM EST
    have TriCare as part of the settlement.

    Parent
    He is military (5.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:21:40 AM EST
    After her divorce is final she is covered under Tricare for six months then she is not covered unless she marries the West Point guy.  But she isn't talking to him now that he told her that it is more important to look pretty and take care of your man than it is to go to school so I'm not seeing insurance coverage there either :)  Just because you marry a soldier doesn't mean you are covered forever after that Jim.  Well, I think I might be, still not sure about that, but it took twenty years to get here.  He probably needs to officially retire before I can move into the Tricare for life program and not lose it in a divorce.  I could be wrong though.  I have never checked.

    Parent
    My bad (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:07:53 AM EST
    I was referring to the children, not her.

    Parent
    They're covered (none / 0) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:16:26 AM EST
    as long as he's serving they have coverage.  I don't know how much longer he'll serve though.

    Parent
    If he retires (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:06:39 PM EST
    the courts can make him provide TriCare.

    If he doesn't the courts can make him provide insurance although this is not as easy when you can have the DOD take it out of his pension.

    Parent

    Have you looked at the guidelines (none / 0) (#57)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:20:52 AM EST
    for receiving Medicaid. You do have to be destitute not just poor.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:24:49 AM EST
    You have to be living on the streets to get medical coverage.  It's crazy...it is completely crazy!

    Parent
    OMG! The Purple Shirts Are Coming! (none / 0) (#28)
    by daring grace on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:55:49 AM EST
    "We are asking everyone to wear a solid red, white or blue shirt, show our patriotism and to contrast the purple shirts worn by SEIU activists," Nancy Rumelt of Loveland said in an e-mail, referring to the Change for America campaign of the Service Employees International Union.

    As a big, big fan of purple clothes, I take umbrage at this slight to my patriotism.

    Red and blue (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Steve M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:09:30 AM EST
    are quite a contrast to purple, that's for sure.

    Parent
    Heh, me too (none / 0) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 08:57:18 AM EST
    Purple is my fave color.

    Parent
    GREEN! (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Jen M on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:40:27 AM EST
    (sorry, had to)

    Parent
    You know, I think, gasp, (5.00 / 0) (#72)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:48:10 AM EST
    that purple is the color of "those" people....

    Parent
    Royalty? :) (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:50:49 AM EST
    Tort Reform and Fee Regulation (none / 0) (#44)
    by samsguy18 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 09:55:09 AM EST
    This administration artfully tries to avoid both of these basic interventions. Instead they write an 1100 page bill that they can't read without legal interpretation. I've worked in healthcare for almost 35 years in the USA and Canada. A large portion of that time spent at public hospitals. Obama says as much as one third of medical spending is wasted on sevices providing little benefit. Hog wash !!!! His comment regarding a hip replacement vs medication to control pain for an elderly person who is terminally ill was disturbing. Mortality vs Quality of life.....In the 70's I worked in the Transplant areas where we had to consider the patients age. It was heart wrenching. Obama's insensitive remarks should make us all pay more attention to what he's saying and doing. The bill proceeding as is will be a disaster for all Americans.  

    Tort reform is not a problem (5.00 / 0) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:01:42 AM EST
    it is only a created talking point used to derail this discussion of the actual facts.  If you have actual stats showing how lawsuits have brought us to this I'll take a look.  As Steve M has pointed out many times before though most states have systems in place that weed out frivolous lawsuits now. Fee regulation for who?

    Parent
    Tort reform is not being (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:10:41 AM EST
    sold as how we got here or as a solution. But it is obviously part of the problem and must be part of any solution.

    Parent
    Oh Bull (5.00 / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:14:51 AM EST
    Not really (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 10:54:52 AM EST
    What do you mean by tort reform?  It is just another conservative biolerplate slogan--most who throw it out have no idea what it means or what they want.

    If anything, the defense side in civil cases has way too many advantages.....Poor people have no real chance against a large company in litigation.  None.

    We have had one form of "tort" reform in California for a generation.

    Claire McCaskill noted at her townhall that Missouri passed tort reform and asked her audience did their insurance premiums go down?  No, of course not.

    Tort reform= conservative slogan--nothing more than a canard.

    Parent

    I didn't say it was the (none / 0) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:03:57 PM EST
    solution for ALL the problems, just one of the cost elements that need to be addressed.

    As an Independent who wants a single payer plan I am smart enough to know that even Repubs have SOME good ideas.

    Parent

    You still don't say what "tort" reform (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 01:19:20 PM EST
    is.  It is just a slogan.....

    It is used as a rhetorical device as a hypothetical device to oppose progressive ideas.  There is no real there there.  

    Parent

    Yes I understand it is a talking point for (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 02:14:37 PM EST
    the Repubs just as the Demos have the evileee insurance companies denying coverage...

    Like most talking points there is an element of truth in both.

    Parent

    Fee regulation for Insurance companies (none / 0) (#124)
    by samsguy18 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:30:53 PM EST
       Medicare and medicaid.....The fee structure is procedure driven. An overhaul of the reimbursement schedules would make a difference as well. They are too complicated. The Canadian reimbursement schedule for an office visit has four simple options.
    1)minor assessment 2) major assessment 3) general Assessment and 4) specific assessment.
       Tort reform is part of the problem.Ob/Gyn malpractice insurance fees 20yrs ago were $5000 to $10000.Today in some states they hover around $200000. Healthcare workers and hospitals are forced to do more to protect themselves because of lawsuits. Here in Illinois 20 million dollar awards are common. Keep in mind the majority of malpractice suits are settled before they get to court. Many of the physicians I know believe quality healthcare is a right and are open to being salaried. The escalating malpractice insurance premiums is a huge deterrent.  

    Parent
    I'm in hospitals with my son at least (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 12:48:32 PM EST
    twice a year right now for surgeries.  I've witnessed obvious negligence when we first had to deal with MRSA.  My own family members who are nurses have spoken openly about other nurses they work with being too lazy to observe "the rules" that prevent MRSA infections.  I'm sorry but no part of any system can be without checks and balances and lawsuits are not a problem otherwise you would have a link to a study.  If they were such a problem the insurance companies would be taking full advantage of that.

    Parent
    Hope this is helpful (none / 0) (#138)
    by samsguy18 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 02:24:08 PM EST
    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2049169/tort_reform_and_health_care.html?cat=62
    This is recent with some helpful links. Sorry to hear about your son and his experience with MRSA.
    Sadly the over use of antibiotics coupled with bad sanitary habits have created a monster. Please don't misunderstand my comment.....patients need to be protected where there is negligence and malpractice