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Wednesday Afternoon Open Thread

I'm busy writing motions and haven't been able to catch much news today. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    I put this in another thread (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:45:43 PM EST
    seen this (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:47:52 PM EST
    about the Lewin Group 'Research'?

    Backlash: Democratic dangers mount (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:28:27 PM EST
    Democrats giddy with possibilities only six months ago now confront a perilous 2010 landscape signaled by troublesome signs of President Barack Obama's political mortality, the plunging popularity of many governors and rising disquiet among many vulnerable House Democrats.

    The issue advantage has shifted as well, with Democrats facing the brunt of criticism about the pace of stimulus package spending, anxiety over rising unemployment rates and widespread uneasiness over the twin pillars of Obama's legislative agenda: his cap-and-trade approach to climate change and the emerging health care bill.

    Bolstered by historical trends that work in the GOP's favor -- midterm elections are typically hostile to the party in power -- and the prospect of the first election in a decade without former President George W. Bush either on the ballot or in office, Republicans find themselves on the offensive for the first time since 2004.

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/

    So, my daughter just stopped by (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:59:46 PM EST
    and innocently inquired if there were arguments on "my blog" about Crowley and Gates.  

    Top Chef Masters the Final (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:13:24 PM EST
    is on now east coast for those of you interested. (not sure how the times work in the other zones)

    Fun watching the pros compete for charity :)

    The masters are actually more fun to watch (5.00 / 0) (#110)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:28:35 PM EST
    than the regular competition.

    Parent
    It is/they are (none / 0) (#118)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:41:31 PM EST
    the atmosphere is so much better and they got skills :)

    Parent
    And there are no jerks (5.00 / 0) (#120)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:42:30 PM EST
    Seriously (none / 0) (#124)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:52:12 PM EST
    they all have a respectful attitude to more than the food, and to their competition.

    Parent
    OMG! I didn't realize it went on (none / 0) (#127)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:01:25 PM EST
    past tonight! I thought tonight was the final!

    Parent
    Me too (none / 0) (#129)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:07:33 PM EST
    I guess this is going to run until the new season starts. Fine with me!

    Parent
    Nice surprise, eh? (none / 0) (#134)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:26:03 PM EST
    I was thinking all we got after tonight was the winning recipe, lol!~ I'm on for more of this :)

    Parent
    I was all prepared for a winner to (5.00 / 0) (#137)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:31:45 PM EST
    be announced, and was shocked - well, surprised - to find out it wasn't over tonight.

    Good for us, I say - I like watching these people cook and create!

    But am I the only one who thinks host Kelly Choi only eats at critics' table? - that woman needs some meat on her bones.

    Parent

    As a naturally skinny chick (none / 0) (#142)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:57:43 PM EST
    I can't comment too much on skinny chicks. I can say if I see a larger boned person too skinny, but she actually looks to be on the smaller boned side. It's actually a B!tch to keep your weight up if you eat healthy and are born skinny.  And I will say, I prefer seeing chefs on the slim side.

    Can you believe we get more?! Oh my. I was not expecting this one :) Bravo to Bravo for more cooking fun!

    Parent

    NYCstray, I was wondering how (none / 0) (#122)
    by vml68 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:48:59 PM EST
    Ms Dot is doing after the crazy weather we had today.

    Parent
    She's resting on the couch (none / 0) (#126)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:58:17 PM EST
    Thanks for asking!! It was so not a calm afternoon, got to me also!, so she's acting a bit punkie, as are my felines.

    There was some seriously crazy weather going on! How's your guy doing?

    Parent

    Poor baby, I can just imagine how rough (none / 0) (#138)
    by vml68 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:38:40 PM EST
    it must have been for her.
    My boy was a little nervous initially but then he must have decided that he'd had enough of it because everytime there was a crack of thunder, he would run to the window and bark like crazy and then he would pick up one of his toys and strut around the room. So he managed fine this afternoon.
    This evening when it got really wild between 6-7 he had to go potty but he did not want to be out in that weather and neither did I, quite frankly. I was soaked to the skin in less than a minute! so we came back home and he pooped in the house for the first time in his life!
    Atleast it was not on the carpet... :-)

    There was some seriously crazy weather going on!

    No Kidding!
    I heard on the news that they think that a tornado might have hit a few miles from here. It would explain the incredible force of the wind. It was like the rain was coming down sideways! I weigh about the same as you and I really thought I was going to be airborne.... :-0!

    Parent
    I so wish Dot would loosen up (none / 0) (#147)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:12:29 PM EST
    enough to bark at the windows and grab a toy! She has on occasion with smaller storms, but not the big ones. She at least knows if potty time is needed, we aren't coming in until she's done. Took a bit of work (she wants to go out,then we get out! lol!~), but there is that "special" tree! She will get rewarded by big puddles on our next outing as they're still fairly safe.

    Remember the tornado in Bay Ridge? My friend was on the next street over, literally. We had a good laugh because she and her dogs slept though it!! {after staying up from a thunder storm!} Dot and I have been blown around before, her more than me, and it's scary. I'll never forget the time a wind blew her into a fence as we were trying to get home. The weather alerts on my computer are respected now ;)

    Parent

    Yikes, that must have been scary! (none / 0) (#149)
    by vml68 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:44:37 PM EST
     
    I'll never forget the time a wind blew her into a fence as we were trying to get home.

    I have switched my boy over completely to raw food and one of the first changes I noticed was his potty habits. This stuff moves through his system in 4-5 hours and it's like clockwork. On the old diet he could wait a day with no problem. Now, when he's gotta go, he's gotta go!

    Parent

    Oh, and she has (none / 0) (#135)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:28:50 PM EST
    a case of gas. Unusual for her unless she's stressed. I was just reminded . . . . .

    Parent
    BLUE ANGELS ARE HERE AND GETTING (5.00 / 0) (#167)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:00:13 AM EST
    Ready to take to the sky for their first practice!!  Seafair weekend....the Angels will be up there practicing today and tomorrow and I've got a front row seat from my office!!!

    LOVE IT!!!!

    Enjoy. The windows rattle in my (none / 0) (#168)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:06:10 AM EST
    neighbor hood when they practice and perform nearby.  People sit out in the street on lawnchairs to watch.

    Parent
    Oh, for sure.... (none / 0) (#170)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:27:31 AM EST
    they rattle everything :)  The only thing about being at work today that's better than the Angel's is the air conditioning!

    My son not too many years ago was asleep the first day of their practice...they flew over, he flew out of his room absolutely positive the Iraqi's were attacking back!

    We did have a Blue Angel crash into a string of houses just north of Seattle on opening day of the World's Fair back in 1962.

    Parent

    he best place to watch the Blue Angels (none / 0) (#173)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:56:58 AM EST
    for me was in San Francisco on year during Fleet Week.  We were sitting high up in a building and the planes seemed to be flying between the high rises.  

    Parent
    That would be great to see.... (none / 0) (#174)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:15:49 PM EST
    first time I saw the Angels I was just a little kid in northern Minnesota. My uncle was in the Navy, so I thought he owned them.

    Then, I also thought my dad owned the roads and could never figure out how people had the nerve to pass him.


    Parent

    Ha. The kids I show stuff to in (none / 0) (#175)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 12:18:38 PM EST
    my area had never heard of the Blue Angels when we saw the exhibit this week at the Air and Space Museum here.  I've never been a fan of the air show so I may have to leave that particular void for their relatives to fill.

    Parent
    this would be funny (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:19:14 PM EST
    if we were not talking about my money:

    Government Discovers That Paper Has Two Sides

    Three months ago, President Barack Obama ordered his cabinet secretaries to find $100 million in budget cuts

    The Justice Department estimates it can save $573,000 through fiscal 2010 by setting up its printers and copiers to use both sides of the paper. By emailing some documents instead of printing them out, the Department of Homeland Security will save $318,000.

    Working with double-sided docs can be a pain (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:22:43 PM EST
    I'm all for email, though.

    Parent
    It's because people don't do it enough (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:31:29 PM EST
    if they had to do it often, it would be more second nature.

    I prefer email. Easy for record keeping etc without all that paper cluttering up my life :)

    Parent

    Ever tried to edit really bad writing (none / 0) (#8)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:38:22 PM EST
    on double-sided paper? Double spaced and single-sided thanks!

    (Good for other uses, though).

    Parent

    Scan it in (none / 0) (#12)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:40:15 PM EST
    and edit with the computer.

    They must have the technology by now, yes?

    Parent

    Still a bit of a pain (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:44:50 PM EST
    Better to get the electronic version in the first place!

    Parent
    Edit on the computer, before printing (none / 0) (#40)
    by esmense on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:12:48 PM EST
    Not a good idea (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:18:43 PM EST
    actually, as studies show we proofread far better when our eyes are not having to constantly adjust to those infinitesimally vibrating pixels.  

    Parent
    Works fine for me (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:22:44 PM EST
    And it's probably less of a problem on an LCD.

    Parent
    I edit better onscreen. I can make (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:42:14 PM EST
    the type as big as I want {grin}

    Parent
    I like your research (none / 0) (#86)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:31:30 PM EST
    as I find I can draft etc on screen, but in proofreading, I do far better work on a hard copy; also need a time pause in between drafting and proofing.  So when I can, I proofread papers on the subway!

    Parent
    Not mine, but interesting studies (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:02:50 PM EST
    by others on word production show that editing on the screen is a major reason -- well, along with staff cutbacks, but even before that -- for the increase in typos we see in print media today.  And the increase in "tired eye" syndrome in newsrooms.  I saw a demo once that displayed better just how much screen pixels are constantly moving, and it was migraine-inducing.

    Parent
    As long as the paper (none / 0) (#5)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:30:55 PM EST
    isn't so cheap that the printing shows through, it's fine by me.

    Parent
    Just as long as they ... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:30:37 PM EST
    don't make them reuse coffee filters.

    We don't need a Justice Department fueled on bad, bitter coffee.

    ;)

    Parent

    there is some crazy stuff (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:41:57 PM EST
    in that article:

    The Forest Service will no longer repaint its new, white vehicles green immediately upon purchase.

    The Coast Guard realized that maintenance schedules for its 1,800 small boats assumed they were for recreational use such as water-skiing or bass-fishing. By adjusting maintenance schedules to reflect what the Coast Guard actually does, the agency discovered it can save $2 million a year.

    The Federal Emergency Management Agency is going to save $3.8 million by refurbishing and reusing or selling its emergency trailers -- like the ones provided to people displaced by hurricanes -- instead of ditching them.

    Parent

    That would be grounds (5.00 / 0) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:48:52 PM EST
    for dismissal.

    Parent
    "grounds" ... (none / 0) (#140)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:48:39 PM EST
    was that a pun?

    Parent
    Yes, but a poor one, I guess-- (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 09:27:54 AM EST
    big regrets.

    Parent
    Just filled out a Homeland Sec'y form (none / 0) (#16)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:42:15 PM EST
    of many pages, one side only, as financial sponsor for an immigrant's visa.  The long process has shown me so many ways that it is make-work, with forms repeating the same info and requesting the same attachments over and over and over.   And the costs! are in the many thousands of dollars of fees, much of it going to waste forests full of trees. . . .

    The HS Dept already does use email at several points in the process, though, to inform of various approvals done -- so it's welcome to get the info days sooner than via snailmail.  But every such email message does get duplicated via snailmail -- and often in letters and packets printed on one side only.  Of course, that may be on purpose to hike the postage costs at both ends, boosting the declining revenue of another fed agency, the postal service.

    Parent

    How to privatise health care and fix it (none / 0) (#3)
    by JDM in NYC on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:26:12 PM EST
    at the same time:

    Take the money that would be used to set up Obama's eventual plan, and contract the health care service out to Canada or France or whichever. The US could take bids from each country that has a national or single-payer system, and the winning bidder could set up free clinics throughout the US. Mothballed Federal properties could be used where available. Since this would simply be an expansion of an existing system (whichever one is chosen), it would probably cost significantly less than trying to start a new one.


    Outsourcing too! (none / 0) (#9)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:39:11 PM EST
    They could use remote clinics run from China, India, Poland or Ireland. Free trade, bay-bee!

    Parent
    We already have (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:45:20 PM EST
    most of the Doctors from India... And outside of trying to talk to them over the phone they do a fine job...

    Parent
    Mine is Indian, and lovely English (none / 0) (#26)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:48:46 PM EST
    he speaks, no doubt better than mine with the Midwestern accent.:-)  One of the best internists around my town, too.  And now that my spouse has taught in India, we know why -- those that can get an education there get a darn good one.

    Parent
    Oh, yes. (none / 0) (#34)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:59:45 PM EST
    India strongly believes in quality education.  It's not accessible to everyone though.

    Parent
    We would do well to do as well as India (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:05:36 PM EST
    when education is concerned.

    Parent
    I agree, mostly...... (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by vml68 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:18:41 PM EST
    We would do well to do as well as India when education is concerned.

    I attended high school in India and one of the things I noticed when I came here to go to college is that I had already covered most of the math and sciences taught in the freshman and sophomore years here, in high school. I am not very familiar with what is taught in high school here but I got the impression that students can pick and choose the subjects they want to focus on. In India at the high school level you don't get to choose anything. You have to study math, biology, chemistry, physics, history, geography, civics, art, and a second language (and in some schools like the one I attended a third language!) every year starting from the 7th or 8th grade.
    So really what ends up happening is that you end up memorizing vast quantities of information but don't get much oportunity for critical thinking or exploring ideas. And the culture is such that there is extreme pressure on kids to excel. It is not unheard of for kids to attempt suicide because they did not rank in the top few.

    Parent

    That would have been a terrible system for me (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:29:33 PM EST
    The percentile gap between my quantitative and verbal abilities would make your jaw drop.

    Parent
    You would have hated it. (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by vml68 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:55:36 PM EST
    That would have been a terrible system for me

    I have heard that things are different now but when I was there, the only two professions to aspire to were medicine and engineering.
    You pretty much had to rank at the top to get into those two programs.
    If you were a C student then your only option would be to get into an "Arts" program, languages, history, psychology, etc. And dog forbid if you were an A student and wanted to study one the "Arts" subjects, you would be considered certifiable!

    Parent

    Educational systems (none / 0) (#143)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:03:28 PM EST
    that require people to be good at everything in order to advance just don't make sense to many. I know some very smart people who are good at everything, but I know more smart people who are ok at most things and really good at other things.

    Parent
    I agree and it was harder (none / 0) (#148)
    by vml68 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:34:00 PM EST
    Educational systems that require people to be good at everything in order to advance just don't make sense to many.

    for lower income students whose future depended on them excelling in high school. That was a lot of pressure on a kid.
    I am talking of the pre-outsourcing, call center days. I hear it is a whole different world now.

    It always makes me smile when I watch spelling bees and see the disproportionate number of indian american kids (that memorizing gene is strong!) and almost all of them claim to want to grow up to be brain surgeons or neuroscientists!

    Parent

    OK everyone can throw rocks (none / 0) (#153)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 07:43:48 AM EST
    There is too much fluff in high school in the US and a terrible lack of science, math and language. Teaching students to "think" is fine, but first they should be taught "facts." The basics.

    We are producing lawyers and journalists while the the rest of the world is producing engineers, scientists and doctors.

    Parent

    I understand you don't agree (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by vml68 on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 08:35:45 AM EST
    with his views but why the need for personal insults?

    Parent
    The result of a half-decade, at least, (none / 0) (#171)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:39:52 AM EST
    of personal sniping back and forth between the two here on TL.

    Parent
    And those that do get it (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:16:47 PM EST
    are so grateful for it, with such good manners.  I told my students that my spouse's students in India were so ashamed when occasionally late for class that their custom is to stand at the door and apologize and ask the prof's permission to be allowed the honor to enter and attend. . . .

    Of course, those of my students who most needed to hear that were . . . late and not there yet.  These days, at many campuses, colleagues agree that if half of the class is there at the start, it's a good day.  At least I've learned how to crack down and otherwise communicate on how the rest will enter so as to lessen disruption.  And after the first test, they find out that a lot of answers are given in the first ten minutes of each class. :-)

    Parent

    When we traveled the Southern tip of India (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:23:39 PM EST
    I was continually impressed by the english the children who were begging from us spoke. They spoke as clear as we did.

    Parent
    Sounds like me when I first came to (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by vml68 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:53:38 PM EST
    I told my students that my spouse's students in India were so ashamed when occasionally late for class that their custom is to stand at the door and apologize and ask the prof's permission to be allowed the honor to enter and attend.

    this country!

    Parent

    My experience is that the phone (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:04:51 PM EST
    is the barrier....

    Of course I speak Southern... ;-)

    in person no problem..... and the professional side has been perfect..

    BTW - I use to work for a huge Japanese corp. Same thing there. No problems in person, problems over the phone. I finally figured out that is why so many Japanese attend meetings in person you wouldn't think their management level would.

    Parent

    Man charged in death (none / 0) (#7)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:37:03 PM EST
    [LINK]
    An Ohio University student has been charged with involuntary manslaughter in the death of another student who fell from a fourth-floor dormitory window.

    James Tyler Wagers, 20, is accused of providing hallucinogenic mushrooms to 20-year-old Eric Hansen, who died in an April 28 fall at Weld House, Athens County Prosecutor C. David Warren said this afternoon.

    Interesting.  Wonder what the final outcome will be?

    Palsgraf. (none / 0) (#10)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:39:31 PM EST
    Criminal application? (none / 0) (#11)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:40:06 PM EST
    Good catch. I don't think this charge (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:41:06 PM EST
    will stick.  DA must be running for higher office.

    Parent
    Is consuming psychedelic mushrooms (none / 0) (#15)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:42:12 PM EST
    an intervening culpable action?

    Parent
    The supplier and the victim (none / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:45:47 PM EST
    were the same age and both students and there is no indication in the link the victim was duped plus passage of time.  

    Parent
    I don't know ... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:46:12 PM EST
    but I bet it would make you think "culpable" was a very funny word.

    ;)

    Parent

    thats funny (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:49:03 PM EST
    and true

    Parent
    if they are going to prosecute (none / 0) (#17)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:44:00 PM EST
    Jacksons doctor, why not?

    Parent
    No physician/patient relationship here and (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:47:06 PM EST
    supplier apparently wasn't present at time of ingestion.  Drug the MD administered to Jackson purportedly could only be administered by a physician.  

    Parent
    "should be" (none / 0) (#28)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:50:20 PM EST
    Any injectable drug can be self administered, whether or not it is contraindicated.

    Parent
    as I understand it (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:52:17 PM EST
    the doctor would start the drip to allow him to "sleep" and then turn it off to wake him up.

    if you put that in a screenplay no one would believe it.


    Parent

    Uh..... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:56:50 PM EST
    Everything I've read about propofol says that it is a single dose drug - not continuous administration.  

    If what you say is correct, WTH was that doctor doing?

    Parent

    maybe the drip (none / 0) (#39)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:08:21 PM EST
    was a different drug.  not following that closely.

    Parent
    actually (none / 0) (#43)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:21:34 PM EST
    just found this in another story.

    It has emerged Jackson was given a powerful, surgical anaesthetic called properol through a drip-feed to help him sleep.

    the headline of the story:

    Michael Jackson 'slept with child-sized porcelain doll in dress'

    Parent

    Good grief. (none / 0) (#83)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:22:01 PM EST
    check out this:
    Adverse drugs reactions
    Cold extremities, insomnia, fatigue, dizziness, vivid dreams, lassitude, nausea, constipation or diarrhoea, vomiting, anorexia, stomach discomfort, impotence. Weakness, paraesthesia, wheezing, pharyngitis, bronchospasm. CNS disturbances at higher doses and mood alterations. Thrombocytopenic purpura, agranulocytosis, nonthrombocytopenic purpura, thrombocytopenia. Depression, confusion, cognitive dysfunction, emotional lability, fatigue, hallucinations.
    Potentially Fatal: Heart failure, heart block and bronchospasm.

    The article you linked said that the room MJ was found in was stifling hot because he complained about being cold.  First on the list: cold extremities.  It goes downhill from there - insomnia, mood alterations, hallucinations.  Oh, and heart failure.  

    That toxicology report is going to be interesting reading.

    Parent

    Malpractice and criminal negligence? (none / 0) (#77)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:10:52 PM EST
    Capt Howdy (none / 0) (#88)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:35:13 PM EST
    had the drugs confused.

    He was talking about a different one.  It actually fits better with the reports of MJ's condition before his death.  

    Propofol's big selling point is almost no side effects at all.  Instant unconsciousness, then wake up in about an hour with no grogginess or impaired function.

    Propanolol is a different drug(beta blocker), used originally to treat hypertension.  It is used to treat a variety of conditions and like most beta blockers has a list of drugs it can interact with.  The biggest risk of propanolol is lowering blood pressure too much and causing serious or fatal cardiac dysfunction.

    Parent

    The doctor who was with him is a (none / 0) (#111)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:32:33 PM EST
    cardiologist who also practices internal medicine. Really have to wonder WTH he was thinking.

    Parent
    I have no idea. (none / 0) (#151)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 04:08:03 AM EST
    It's just strange to me.  What's worse is realizing that there are other people out there who can find compliant doctors who tell them what they want to hear and write them prescriptions even though there's a good chance the drugs are being abused.  

    Serious drugs have serious side effects.  The hypertensive drug has a long list of adverse effects for which you should seek immediate medical attention.  If you can't imagine life without that drug, how motivated would you to be to go to the emergency room?  

    Parent

    No, it's not single-dose! (none / 0) (#114)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:35:11 PM EST
    It's IV and does require continuous administration.  That's the whole point of this MJ issue.

    Parent
    I've read or heard this particular drug (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:52:01 PM EST
    requires supervision so the "patient" doesn't check out for the long sleep.  

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#25)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:48:28 PM EST
    It would be ever so nice if doctors were more active at disciplining their own.  I wonder why we haven't heard any news about a medical ethics investigation.  There are a lot of questions in my mind about the care that Jackson was receiving.

    Due to medical privacy laws, it takes an official investigation to open up medical records.  Without an investigation, I don't know if anyone is allowed access to the medical records, even for deceased persons.

    Parent

    Wasn't Deepak Chopra (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by BackFromOhio on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:38:05 PM EST
    calling for medical investigation into the actions of the many Drs. in the L.A. area, Deepak claims, do what the rich & famous patients want and check their medical ethics at the door?

    Parent
    As far as I know, Chopra is a charlatan (none / 0) (#92)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:51:47 PM EST
    No, not a charlatan (none / 0) (#112)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:33:57 PM EST
    He's a publicity seeker and clearly quite vain, but no charlatan.

    Parent
    Based on? (none / 0) (#113)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:34:08 PM EST
    Has he practiced medicine since he became a spiritual advisor, author and inspirational speaker?

    Parent
    People who merge medicine and flim flam (none / 0) (#117)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:39:37 PM EST
    make me nauseous, especially when they should know better.

    Parent
    Ah, funny...they're the ones (none / 0) (#146)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:11:32 PM EST
    I like most....the ones who should know better.

    :)

    Parent

    Ad hominem (none / 0) (#158)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 09:00:55 AM EST
    attack?  My comment was about the fact that he called for an investigation by the authorities of the many physicians who cater to Hollywood types, giving them what they want, in lieu of exercising independent medical judgment.... Chopra himself refused to give MJ sleep medication when requested.

    PS:  I don't think anyone who talks about spirituality is by definition flim-flam.

    Parent

    Looked it up. (none / 0) (#31)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:53:03 PM EST
    Never heard of it.  Of course I've never studied law.  

    Parent
    Cardozo (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 04:59:33 PM EST
    One of the most important common law decisions of the last century.

    Parent
    Big deal in torts (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by andgarden on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:00:01 PM EST
    Good god... (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:46:59 PM EST
    this makes the arrest of Gates look downright smart by comparison.  

    And Mr. Wagers is being held in one of our cages pending a court appearance...this young man is in a cage right now!  Arrrggh!  

    I'm surprised the authorities haven't started interrogating the local cows to find out which one took the dump that spawned the 'shrooms...there is the real menace.  Or maybe they'll charge Mother Nature.

    A manslaughter charge for sharing 'shrooms...say it ain't so Joe cuz I can't believe it.

    Parent

    I knew you'd like it. (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:11:37 PM EST
    I posted this just for you, kdog.

    At least we aren't talking about MJackson's doctor anymore! :)

    Parent

    Thanks Fabian... (none / 0) (#162)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 09:51:45 AM EST
    you're allright kid:)

    I'm waiting on the day when we ain't talking about stupid arrests anymore, period...but that day ain't ever comin' I'm afraid.  

    Parent

    Israeli Ecstasy Kingpins Extradited to US (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:04:16 PM EST
    In another indication of the increasingly ambitious and global nature of Israeli organized crime, a trend I've been covering in a Tablet Magazine series this week, an Israeli court ruled yesterday that the brothers Meir and Yitzhak Abergil, two of Israel's most notorious gangsters, and a few of their associates will be extradited to the United States.There, they will face the music for allegedly running one of the world's largest Ecstasy rings in cooperation with the Vineland Boyz, a Los Angeles-based Latino gang. (The partnership had landed the brothers on the U.S. State Department's list of the top 40 drug importers.)

    Headquartered in Israel's northern coastal city of Netanya, the Abergils were arrested last August following a sweeping FBI investigation that spanned six years and involved law enforcement from more than ten countries across North America, Europe, East Asia, and the Middle East.

    Douglas Century via laura rozen

    The Tablet Magazine is a blog that offers a "read on Jewish life". Had never seen it but it looks quite interesting as a daily bookmark.

    Tablet is a daily online magazine of Jewish news, ideas, and culture. Launched in June 2009, it's a project of the not-for-profit Nextbook Inc. and the sister organization of Nextbook Press, which publishes a line of Jewish-themed books. Our archive holds all the articles and features that originally appeared on the website Nextbook.org.  



    Heh, Reading Your Title (none / 0) (#155)
    by daring grace on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 08:19:23 AM EST
    I thought Israeli Ecstasy Kingpins was a band.

    Parent
    911 caller, Whalen, was Gatesed. (none / 0) (#47)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:33:11 PM EST
    CAMBRIDGE, Mass. - The woman who dialed 911 to report a possible break-in at the home of black Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. said Wednesday she was wrongly labeled a racist


    Saw her presser on teevee (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:03:03 PM EST
    and it's just awful to see her level of hurt.

    Someone else at the presser spoke and said that the three guys who acted so badly are getting together at the White House for a beer, while the woman who did the right thing -- which law-and-orderites from local cops to presidents keep asking the public to do -- and the one in this scenario who did not raise race -- will be back at work . . . after days of enduring terrible harassment.

    CNN has a call in to the White House to ask if it might consider invite her for a brewski, too.

    Parent

    Since when... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by kdog on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:17:10 PM EST
    do law and orderites, the local police, and the president know what the right thing to do is?

    I think the moral here is not to refuse to identify race to a 911 operator, the moral here is to think twice before dialing 911.  It might be a toll free call, but it ain't always free, sometimes it comes with a bill full of grief and regret to pay.

    Parent

    Thinking twice might get someone dead (5.00 / 0) (#58)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:28:28 PM EST
    and then you have to live with that. What if that had been a type of push in robbery and Gates was home? What if I had written off the guy on the sidewalk as a drunk, mind my own business, and he had a potential fatal head injury?* There's plenty of situations that could go either way where you would say leave the people alone and don't "drop a dime", but you can't always know that in the moment. As much of a hassle as this Gates incident turned out to be, what if the scenario turned out different and something worse happened to Gates?

    *My friend's mom fell and hit her head a couple weeks ago. She was dead a few hrs later . . .

    Parent

    What Ifs, AKA Hypotheticals (5.00 / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:30:44 PM EST
    What if you called the cops and they shot Gates, What if you called the cops and they shot you, What if you called the cops and they shot the neighbor. What if you called the cops and they shot your lover..

    So much for what ifs..

    Parent

    I guess when I walk by you out cold (none / 0) (#69)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:55:20 PM EST
    on the street I should just keep on walking?

    Parent
    You Should Do What You Think Is Right (5.00 / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:57:09 PM EST
    All I am saying is that engaging in what ifs does not necessarily involve a happy ending to the story.

    Parent
    No, it doesn't (none / 0) (#94)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:06:55 PM EST
    but when you think of the many calls 911 gets, how many end with a cop shooting someone? I wonder . . .  what are the chances that Gates would have been shot vs someone actually robbing his home?

    And if I saw you out cold on the street, you might just find yourself surrounded by paramedics . . .

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#96)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:15:08 PM EST
    Well I will try to pass out in the privacy of my own home, thank you for your concern though...  

    Parent
    Just don't hit your head. (none / 0) (#97)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:22:44 PM EST
    Oh (none / 0) (#99)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:28:08 PM EST
    Well anyway you are quite sweet, no doubt about that.

    Parent
    I was thinking the same thing. (none / 0) (#61)
    by lentinel on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:40:46 PM EST
    The next time, instead of calling the police, a neighbor or passerby might just ignore it... the way people stroll past car alarms.

    Parent
    Seems to me (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:49:35 PM EST
    that we are a little too worried about the possibility that people might refrain from calling the cops in the future, based upon the fallout from a situation where, in fact, the cops should not have been called!  The evidence suggests that maybe people do need to call the cops a little bit less.

    Parent
    Oh really. (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:14:22 PM EST
    The cops should not have been (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:19:52 PM EST
    called?  Good lord, I hope my neighbors don't think so.

    That is far, far different from: the cop should not have arrested Gates.

    Parent

    Nope (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:48:45 PM EST
    I don't think the cops should have been called on a guy entering his own house.

    If your thought process is "the cops should be called when someone thinks there's a robbery," well sure, but in this case no one should have thought there was a robbery.

    From where I sit, this entire situation seems to have been instigated by a confused elderly person.

    Parent

    he wasn't just entering his house (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:38:18 PM EST
    he was struggling to open a jammed door.


    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 0) (#109)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:15:46 PM EST
    I think we can assume after all these days of discussions that I am quite familiar with the basic facts of the case.

    I am frankly quite sick of people trying to play gotcha with the minutiae of this storyline.

    My point was simply, with the benefit of hindsight, we know this is not a case where the cops should have been called.  Therefore I'm not particularly concerned about the suggestion that people might be more reluctant to call the cops in the future.  Period.

    Parent

    without the benefit of hindsight (none / 0) (#115)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:35:26 PM EST
    i appreciate the call being made if it was my home.


    Parent
    A guy entering his house (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:05:42 PM EST
    would not have been cause for concern.  Really, you must have read enough on this to know that it was a guy trying to push open a door.  That would look like a guy without a key, i.e., a guy not at his own house.  

    Parent
    Or (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:38:27 PM EST
    A guy who just got back from a trip (luggage) and whose front door is jammed stuck.

    Front door, Cambridge at noon. Maybe you would think it a burglar, but most burglars I would imagine would break in at night, or if desperate enough at least break in through the back of the house.

    Parent

    Guy on my fire escape (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:47:21 PM EST
    broad daylight trying to open the window.  Happens . . . .

    Parent
    Guy at my glass patio doors (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Cream City on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:24:49 AM EST
    jiggling the doorknob.  First floor looked empty, but because one of my kids was lying on the sofa watching teevee.  All we heard upstairs was a scared "Mom? Help. Can you come here?" in a voice I never heard from her before.  Got down there in seconds -- to see the guy saunter up the side of the house and wave at us, then break for it down the street. . . .

    It was daytime.  

    We now have a security system.  Just in time for the latest series of break-ins, burglaries, etc., in the neighborhood -- many of them in daytime -- that mean I see email alerts daily, like the one this morning about a burglary yesterday two blocks from us.  Like the ones about the shtick being used this time, nicely dressed guy -- perhaps a polo shirt? -- coming to doors supposedly canvassing for the YMCA but actually casing us.  Some other neighbor will be getting a security system soon, too.  I hope.

    Oh, and I haven't mentioned the race of the guy who tried to break in to our house.  I haven't mentioned the race of the guy apparently casing the neighborhood.  I haven't mentioned the race of the guys who shot and killed two students in the neighborhood in recent weeks. . . .  But I know.

    Parent

    Non Sequitur (none / 0) (#176)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 01:34:03 PM EST
    Yeah, people have been murdered in broad daylight with crowds watching, so what?

    Besides the non relevance to the Gates story, in your story the guy
    breaks for it down the street when observed.

    But it is nice to exchange stories about robbers and burglars just to lend a bit of fear so that we can all silently nod in approval when the Police abuse their authority. Hope you feel safe knowing that there are lots of Crowleys around to keep all those baaaad guys away.

    Parent

    Hey (none / 0) (#132)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:12:28 PM EST
    I never said burglaries do not happen in broad daylight, especially where there is little traffic or when it is a less obvious spot like a fire escape. My apt was broken into several times via fire escape.

    What I am saying is that if I saw what was described on a Cambridge Street at noon, I would not think it a burglary.

    Parent

    I seem to recall Jeralyn's house was (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by vml68 on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:51:14 PM EST
    broken into in the daytime when she was at work.

    Parent
    Don't Know Jeralyn's Neighborhood (5.00 / 0) (#130)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:09:34 PM EST
    But I do know Cambridge. Not likely that Gates and his driver, who was wearing a suit, luggage on the porch, obviously shouldering in the front door in broad daylight, were burglars.

    As I said I would have asked them if they needed a hand, or something like that.

    Parent

    Daytime B&E's common now (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:40:15 PM EST
    in my neighborhood and many others, because people are more often at work then, rather than at night.

    Btw, a common modus operandi we're also warned about in my neighborhood watch network in a campus neighborhood is, the cops tell us, for criminals to wear backpacks to look like they belong and use them to cart away loot.  But also not uncommon is for criminals to bring or look for luggage in a house to use for loot, too, because someone coming in or out of a house with luggage is not unusual, and the luggage can be sold on the street, too.

    Apparently ye olde black-bag burglary is consigned to fiction now.

    Parent

    My brother was robbed (5.00 / 3) (#152)
    by Fabian on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 04:15:47 AM EST
    During the day, while he was at work, they broke in his front door, loaded his luggage up, had a leisurely snack and left.

    A suitcase?  Perfect!

    Parent

    That's pretty silly. Best time burgle my (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:04:06 PM EST
    neighborhood is when most people are away at work during the daytime.  And, in fact, that is what happens.

    Parent
    Has your home ever been robbed? (none / 0) (#128)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:04:57 PM EST
    Mine has... (none / 0) (#161)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 09:44:29 AM EST
    and in the daytime...not as big a deal as chaining and caging a human being without cause.

    If only we were as afraid of caging and chaining human beings like we're afraid of getting our sh*t jacked...then we'd be getting somewhere.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:43:43 PM EST
    According to Whalen, she was going to just walk by the incident, and really did not notice anything amiss. It was an elderly neighbor who stopped Whalen and asked her to call the cops. All, or most of Whalen's 911 call is her speaking for the elderly neighbor.

    Parent
    The mischaracterization (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by lentinel on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:47:10 PM EST
    was about the nature of the call.

    The fact is that the motivation for calling - whether instigated by the neighbor or the passerby - was concern for Gates' property.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#68)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:54:31 PM EST
    I understand that, my point is that in the context of this particular sub thread discussion, it is somewhat ironic that Whalen may be the type to walk away and not call 911. All we can say about Whalen is that she is someone who will come to the aid of an elderly lady.

    Parent
    And the elderly lady thought she (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:56:10 PM EST
    was coming to the aid of a neighbor.

    Parent
    WHo Knows? (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:01:06 PM EST
    But that is a good guess. Thing is that she was wrong. Obviously Whalen thought she was wrong, to some extent, suitcases, I don't know the person may live there...

    Clearly, imo, if I were walking by Gates house at noon on a  bright sunny day and saw suitcases on the walkway or porch and saw an older man with a guy trying to shoulder the door, I would not imagine it a break in.

    I would ask if they needed some help, as a first instinct.

    Parent

    Hindsight. (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:13:37 PM EST
    Not Hindsight (none / 0) (#89)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:36:23 PM EST
    But based on my personal experience and the various descriptions of the scene.

    I know the neighborhood (Cambridge), have been there many times day and night. If I saw a man in a suit and an elderly man in a polo shirt with a cane trying to get into the front door of a house in Cambridge during the middle of the day, I most certainly would ask if they needed any help.

    No hindsight needed there.

    Parent

    A 58 year old man is NOT elderly... (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:58:18 PM EST
    Small in stature and uses a cane does not make someone elderly, for crying out loud!

    Why, it's actually kind of...ageist...to describe him that way.

    Those of us cresting 55, 56 arriving next month, must seriously object to the whole "elderly" thing.

    It's worse than the first time someone called me "ma'am."  Ugh.

    Parent

    Gates looks quite fit (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:12:17 PM EST
    to me, but then I'm actually older than he, so I guess I'm seeing him with an "elderly" eye.  

    However, I'm in a neighborhood with lots of very Orthodox Jews -- earlocks, long beards, etc., women in wigs -- and there are lots of times that I find I have guessed quite incorrectly on neighbors' ages.  A passerby not familiar with the distortion from "old-fashioned" hairdos, facial hair, and fashions probably would put them -- and me on some days -- among the "aged."  Aaarrgghh.

    Parent

    I Know His Age (none / 0) (#95)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:12:48 PM EST
    Had I been walking by the house and not knowing that it was Gates, yes I would have though him a elderly or somewhat elderly man, Looking at his picture and particularly that he has a cane, regardless of the fact that his injury was as a child, would lead me to believe that Gates was elderly, somewhat elderly or frail.

    Call me ageist. What a crock. Because I decide someone looks old, elderly or in the grave, means I am ageist? Does that mean if I mistake someone who is 50 for a twenty year old I am prejudiced against young people. lol that takes the cake.

    Sounds to me that you are ageist. Identifying someone, according to you as elderly, is somehow a slur? lol

    Even if I assumed that they were college students, an assumtion based on how they looked, I would help them. But according to your logic that would , studentism? Or some kind of bigotry against students.

    You are off the wall this time.

    Parent

    That would imply that you were able (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:26:33 PM EST
    to see more than the actual witnesses. Anyone can have a cane, but Gates's {how do you do a possessive on his name?!} age might not have been as apparent from the distance of the witnesses. His picture gives everyone a decent close up they didn't have.

    Parent
    Irrelevant (none / 0) (#100)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:30:06 PM EST
    If I saw what was described in the Police report, I would ask if they needed help. It was noon in a very nice neighborhood, one that I know.

    Parent
    Oh, for the love of God, squeaky... (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:31:24 PM EST
    I'm off the wall?

    I guess you just didn't quite get the point that, at almost-56, I just don't think of 58 as elderly.

    And neither, apparently, did the person who saw him, as I don't recall the 911 operator being told an "elderly" man appeared to be breaking into a house.

    Get a grip, will you?

    Parent

    I Agree (none / 0) (#105)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:05:41 PM EST
    That a 58-59 year old man is not elderly. That has little to do with what I said. I said, and I maintain that if I saw Gates on his porch I would think him elderly, IOW, to me Gates looks closer to 70.

    And argue all you want about what constitutes elderly, it is irrelevant.

    What is relevant is that you accused me of being ageist, because I said that if I saw Gates without knowing who he is I would think of him as elderly.  Your claim is without merit and off the wall.

    Please tell me how I am discriminating against Gates. Would asking someone if they needed a hand, because they had a cane and grey hair,  and I assumed that they were elderly be agist?

    How about this, would it be agist to ask someone out on a date because they looked elderly and had a cane be agist, if that was your sexual preference?

    How bout this, would it be agist to ask someone standing on the bus with a cane and grey hair if they wanted a seat?

    Please, Anne you are off the wall with your allegations that I am a bigot who discriminates against any one based on their age. It is hardly agist if I perceive someone as elderly, old, middle age, young or a child, and their actual age puts them in a different category that the one I believed them to be in.

    Parent

    But you didn't see Gates on his porch. (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 10:10:25 PM EST
    And the person who did, did not describe him that way, so I'm not quite sure I understand why you felt you needed to characterize him as elderly, in the context of the entire situation.  In fact, the woman who saw the two men shouldering their way into the house obviously did not recognize her neighbor, and had she perceived at least one of the men as elderly, perhaps she would not have been concerned enough to think there was something untoward going on.

    My feeling is that describing Gates as elderly is more of a way to support your view of what transpired.  That doesn't make you an ageist, squeaky, it just makes you more than a little disingenuous in shaping the story.  You cannot take what you know about Gates' age and physical condition and inject it into someone else's perceptions as a way of dismissing the original concern.

    If it makes you feel any better, you are not the only one who has done this - much mention has been made of Gates' use of a cane, as well as of his professional and social stature - to cast as ludicrous anyone's opinion that Gates could have possibly contributed to the outcome of the entire situation.

    Parent

    And, the elderly do get very concerned (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 09:41:34 PM EST
    about these things. There had been break-ins in the neighborhood recently. So, Whalen was actually doing a kindness for an elderly lady who seemed upset. Yep, I do think the cops should have been called.

    Parent
    How in the world (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by lentinel on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:06:30 PM EST
    can you speculate on what type of person Whalen might be?

    If she saw nothing amiss as she was walking along, as you say, what would you expect her to do?

    When she was informed that something was amiss, she did the right thing. That's a good person in my book.

    Parent

    Easily (none / 0) (#87)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:33:01 PM EST
    My point exactly. No speculation necessary, She is someone who would help an elderly lady in distress. That is all we know about her.

    It is clear that we no nothing else about what type of person Whalen may or may not be. The irony here is everyone is assuming that Whalen is the type to call 911 if she saw a break in, there is no evidence that is true or not true.  

    Parent

    If she didn't notice anything amiss (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by nycstray on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:54:05 PM EST
    she wouldn't have willfully been "just walking by it" right? Big dif from seeing something and going "oh well".

    Parent
    Fake (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by lentinel on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:38:30 PM EST
    All of the reports I saw in the beginning of this mishigas said that the call had come into the police from someone seeing two black men pushing open a door in a predominantly white neighborhood. As if the rationale for the call was racist. Everybody ran with that.

    I know I would have felt lucky that someone cared enough about my property to call the cops. And I would have been very grateful that the cops showed up.

    Forget the beer. Has anyone thanked the lady who called?

    The reporting on this incident is on the same level of the reporting on the WMD. Hysteria. Prejudice. Agendas. And a total disinterest in investigative reporting.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Steve M on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:50:19 PM EST
    Gates said he was going to send the lady some flowers.

    Parent
    Nice (none / 0) (#71)
    by lentinel on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:56:18 PM EST
    Yeah (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:06:53 PM EST
    Well blame the Cambridge Police. They should have never released her name. Perhaps she can sue them.

    Parent
    The court released the arrest (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:12:15 PM EST
    reports to the media.

    Parent
    Thanks, I'm so weary of trying (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:24:27 PM EST
    to correct erroneous statements; I thought I had read here that it was the courts, not the cops, that released her name.  

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#85)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:28:59 PM EST
    Well then the courts should not have released Whalen's name. She can sue the city of cambridge, same thing, imo.

    Parent
    Not the same thing at all. No one has (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 11:09:41 PM EST
    excoriated the court but plenty are dissing the PD.

    Parent
    Same Plaintif (none / 0) (#150)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 03:53:34 AM EST
    The state

    Parent
    Oh brother. (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 09:10:27 AM EST
    Btw, Gates said she did (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:06:56 PM EST
    the right thing, so she wasn't "Gatesed."

    Aside from the question, of course, of whether Gates was "Gatesed."

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 10:33:38 AM EST
    She's been "Crowley-ed" - accused of being a racist by people with little or no facts.

    Parent
    Makes sense... (none / 0) (#164)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 10:43:53 AM EST
    to be Gatesed is too be put into temporary bondage and captivity for no legit reason, to be Crowleyed is to be labelled a racist for no legit reason.

    Neither is a prize, but I'd rather be called names than placed in chains if forced to choose between the two.

    Parent

    Kdog (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 10:55:20 AM EST
    some people like that stuff, you know?  ;)

    Parent
    If Gates consented... (5.00 / 0) (#166)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 10:58:19 AM EST
    I'd have no problem jb...get your freak on:)

    Parent
    See, I was thinking that (none / 0) (#172)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 30, 2009 at 11:54:26 AM EST
    Gates Gatesed Crowely, but you may be right, it may more correctly be described as Gates Crowleyed Crowley.

    Dunno, I think I still lean toward the former...

    Parent

    Good Point! (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:24:53 PM EST
    Why are we surprised? (5.00 / 4) (#76)
    by Fabian on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 07:07:33 PM EST
    There were racists everywhere during the 2008 elections!   It didn't take much.  Use an inartful phrase, have a comment taken out of context and you were a racist!

    Now all you have to do is call the police to report suspicious activity and you are a racist.

    Post racial America is looking awfully racist.  I think the difference is who the term applies to.

    Parent

    if i'm ever in the position of witnessing (none / 0) (#51)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 05:52:53 PM EST
    a potential crime in progress i will take great care to tell people i could not determine the suspect's race.

    of course, if the suspect is actually guilty and it goes to court, that might make it impossible for me to be a credible witness for the prosecution, but it's either that or get branded a racist.

    Parent

    You can bet (none / 0) (#53)
    by Cream City on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:03:59 PM EST
    that I learned from this, too.  From now on, all I'm going to see casing my street and pulling on car doors are people of indeterminate race, gender, age. . . .

    Parent
    in a post racial society (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by The Last Whimzy on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 08:42:53 PM EST
    all the lineups look like benneton ads.


    Parent
    This Is Great (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 29, 2009 at 06:40:50 PM EST
    It's a sign of the times when the Orthodox Union starts taking its cues from the Certified Organic crowd. After 2000 years of formalized Jewish dietary law, Israel's top Rabbi has threatened to revoke the kosher status of vegetables deemed excessively sprayed.

    Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger, the country's top religious authority, said he would yank veggies' blanket kosher seal of approval over "insane quantities" of insecticides. Although even the man with the plan acknowledged that there is no precedent for decertifying fruits and vegetables, he said that health hazards alone make spraying a religious concern. (Kashrut, the body of law dictating what is and isn't kosher, forbids eating any known poison.) dictating what is and isn't kosher, forbids eating any known poison.)

    tristero