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Watch Those Bagels: U.S. Insists Poppy Seeds Are Narcotics

War on Drug news: The U.S. has declared poppy seeds to be narcotics. In a recent raid in Afghanistan, the U.S. trumpeted its success. The raid took place in the Marja district of Helmand province:

.... U.S. forces, after a four-day military offensive, proudly announced the biggest-ever drug bust in Afghanistan: more than 101 tons of “narcotics,” whose seizure “severely disrupted one of the key militant and criminal operations and narcotics hubs in southern Afghanistan,” according to U.S. military spokesperson Col. Greg Julian.

What he failed to highlight was that more than 80 percent of it — 82.5 tons — was bagel topping, although most of this cache was probably destined for planting, rather than eating. “We cannot really say that poppyseeds are narcotics,” acknowledged a U.S. official, speaking on background. “They are potential narcotics.”

[More...]

Yes, they also seized some real drugs:

Smaller amounts of actual drugs were seized — 18.5 tons of opium, 0.04 tons of morphine, 0.22 tons of heroin and 0.2 tons of hashish. To put the numbers in perspective, the opium represents three-tenths of 1 percent of the nearly 6,000 tons that Helmand produced in 2008. “It was not hugely substantial,” admitted the U.S. official.

I don't think the policy of considering poppy seeds as narcotics is new. I will always remember a case of the client of a close lawyer friend in the early 90's. The client was at a half-way house serving his final months of a prison term for a money laundering offense involving marijuana when he stopped for a bagel on the way back after work. At his next drug test, he tested positive for narcotics. He insisted it could only be the bagel. He was a businessman with no history of drug use. (He had sold something to a pot dealer and the government alleged he should have known the item was purchased with drug proceeds.)

Even though his lawyer tracked down the bagel manufacturer (in Australia, if I remember correctly) and obtained an affidavit about the poppy seeds, the client was sent back to jail and did many more months in because of it.

Moral of the story: If you are on probation, supervised release or at a half-way house, choose another kind of bagel. Eating poppy seeds can land you in prison. What a ridiculous policy.

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    They can false-positive ya... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:13:20 PM EST
    without the poppy seeds...what the lab says goes and good luck fighting it if they f*cked up for any reason...be it bagel or human error.

    It's ridiculous in a sea of ridiculousness...ladies and germs your war on drugs.

    They'd better leave.... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by desertswine on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:28:20 PM EST
    my Grandma Swine alone. She makes a killer poppyseed cake.

    My mom (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by jbindc on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:36:05 PM EST
    makes a poppy seed chicken to die for.

    Hands off, bucko.

    Parent

    An easy and yummy recipe (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:37:20 PM EST
    that I have too.

    Parent
    On a related subject (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by Peter G on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:14:40 PM EST
    There is a crying need (and I mean that literally as well as figuratively) for morphine for pain control for the sick and injured poor in hospitals throughout the world.  Instead of trying to eradicate the poppy crop in Afghanistan, we should be supporting the creation of a medicinal industry to employ people there and use the opium crop for positive rather than negative ends, that is, to make morphine instead of heroin, for international export.  (Oh, sorry, I forgot for a moment, that might cut into the profits of big Pharma and its control of this "industry.")

    The extreme sensibility of your thought (none / 0) (#25)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:27:53 PM EST
    is precisely why it will never happen, I fear.

    I want to know how in the world our military fits into this scenario. If North Korea escalates are we going to wait until all the poppies are collected before we react?


    Parent

    And what a... (3.00 / 1) (#13)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:20:33 PM EST
    terrible shame to see .2 tons of Afghani hashsish go to waste...there is so little of it in the US market, though it was probably headed to Europe anyway.

    At the leastI hope a little makes its way around the base...our men and women serving in that occupation could use some r&r, I'm sure.

    Heh (none / 0) (#1)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 01:46:25 PM EST


    Obviously not heh (none / 0) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 01:48:12 PM EST
    for the fellow sent to jail for eating a bagel.

    Parent
    This was a Seinfeld episode (none / 0) (#18)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 03:16:27 PM EST
    Last I heard (none / 0) (#3)
    by eric on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 01:59:47 PM EST
    several years ago from local probation people is that the drug tests are more sophisticated now, and that poppy seeds in food will not trigger a positive.  I have no idea if this is true, but it is what I was told.

    I visit to Snopes says that there are quite a few stories about poppies showing up in drug tests.  Apparently, the way to avoid these false positives is to simply raise the positive cut-off level.

    I do like poppy seed muffins.

    I think you just have to eat more (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:15:40 PM EST
    that is insane (none / 0) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:11:50 PM EST
    completely insane

    Oh noes! (none / 0) (#5)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:12:26 PM EST
    My favorite cafe bakes the absolutely best lemon poppy seed muffins.  Is the government going to confiscate my muffin?  

    The poppy seeds used (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:14:27 PM EST
    for cooking have been treated so that the seeds won't germinate.  But you will test positive when tested if you eat them.

    Parent
    For what, heroine? (none / 0) (#10)
    by masslib on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:15:52 PM EST
    Heh.  Well, i don't expect to be tested anytime soon.

    Parent
    Well, it starts out as opium (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:18:19 PM EST
    Not the seed though that I'm aware of.  What a decent chemist can do with it after that I don't know.

    Parent
    Morphine (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ben Masel on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 09:25:12 PM EST
    I love Danish Flag poppies too (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:12:44 PM EST
    and they are evil....just plain evil.  Sometimes you can find seed and sometimes you can't.  This year I found some sold by a prominent organic seed company.  Now we'll probably go back to not being able to find them any place.  One of these days I'll probably go to jail for growing some in my flower border and by God I'm going to be pissed.

    Wasn't this (none / 0) (#12)
    by kmblue on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:18:32 PM EST
    a Seinfeld episode?

    Yes (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 03:16:43 PM EST
    And to think (none / 0) (#14)
    by eric on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:26:41 PM EST
    that I saw a military veteran selling these evil poppies right out in the open on Memorial day!

    82.5 TONS of poppy seeds?! (none / 0) (#17)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 02:37:12 PM EST
    I've got some Cali poppies growing right outside my office door. Each flower produces like 10 seeds, max, for a total of, say, 1/100 oz.

    82.5 tons is an almost unimaginable amount.

    If it really was going to be used as seed for planting, that must put a big dent in next year's production, no?

    Different species of poppy (none / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:59:46 PM EST
    Indeed (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:17:06 PM EST
    A single poppy seed roll (0.76 grams of seeds) usually did not produce a positive drug test, but a positive result was observed from eating two rolls. A slice of poppy seed cake containing nearly five grams of seeds per slice produced positive results for 24 hours. Such results are viewed as false positive indications of drug abuse and were the basis of a legal defense.[64][65]

    So at 32,000 oz/Ton, 82.5 tons of seeds at 0.76 grams per bagel is enough seeds for 98,559,994 bagels.

    Or, to look at it another way, according to wiki there are approximately 140,000 poppy seeds/oz,  

    Close up of white poppy seeds. There are about 140 000 poppy seeds to the ounce[9]
    so they confiscated about 367,360,000,000 seeds.

    That's 367 BILLION seeds.

    That's a lot of bagels.

    Parent

    That's a whole bunch of that delicious (none / 0) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:22:31 PM EST
    Makowiec, and I'm not much good at making it but I sure like to eat it.  That stuff though would send your test off the charts :)

    Parent
    Did the Afghan gov't ask our military (none / 0) (#20)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:00:25 PM EST
    to control their drug distribution?

    Just out of curiosity....anyone know the usage rates and addiction problems in Afghanistan? Among their citizens, not our troops.

    What are we doing over there?

    ANA (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by AlkalineDave on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:29:49 PM EST
    Afghan National Army led the Marjah raids.  U.S. only helps ANA led raids in regards to disruption of the drug trade.  ISAF doesn't help unless their parent countries have decided to.  This isn't only drug trade targeting though.  We're actually trying to help them plant and harvest wheat to deal with food shortages and to give farmers a legitimate trade.

    Parent
    anyone know the usage rates (4.00 / 1) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:15:16 PM EST
    anyone know the usage rates and addiction problems in Afghanistan?
    Interesting question:
    Introduction
    Afghanistan is at a cross-roads; the country is emerging from more than twenty years of political and social unrest as the leading global producer of opium in a geographic region widely affected by drug use, particularly injection drug use, and blood-borne infections, including human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). Countries bordering Afghanistan (with the exception of Turkmenistan, for which there is no available data) are experiencing concentrated epidemics of HIV and hepatitis C in IDU populations [1-4]. Afghanistan is currently at risk for these potentially destabilizing events. Historically, countries slow to respond or instituting only punitive measures for ascending rates of drug use have experienced dramatic outbreaks of HIV and hepatitis among injection drug users (IDU), often with diffusion into the general population [5-7]. The rationale for this paper is to examine the current situation and policy of Afghanistan, as little is known about substance abuse in this country.[...]

    Recreational opium use appears to be common in Kabul, based on data from a recent study conducted by UNODC, interviewing 100 key informants and 200 drug users [25]. There are estimated to be at least 6,026 heroin users, 10,257 opium users, 26,415 hashish users, 15,526 pharmaceutical drugs addicts and 8,128 alcohol addicts within Kabul. However, due to the small numbers of drug users interviewed and inherent biases introduced from interview of key informants, these numbers are believed to represent conservative estimates. There are no reports for the number of drug users in other urban areas.

    Although heroin is predominately used by men, multiple sources document opiate use starting in childhood and affecting both genders [24,25]. Based on these studies, the Counter Narcotic Department (CND), the highest drug control authority under the presidential office, estimates that there are approximately 500,000 people within Afghanistan addicted to different psychoactive substances (Personal Communication, Dr. M. Zafar, Drug Demand Reduction Officer, CND, October 29, 2004).



    Parent
    What, you ask? (3.00 / 1) (#28)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:32:10 PM EST
    We are spending 500,000 dollars a minute on the war in Iraq.

    That leaves a little left over, apparently.

    What better way to spend it than in Afghanistan - vacation paradise of the Middle East.

    Parent

    Afghanistan (4.00 / 1) (#29)
    by AlkalineDave on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:35:46 PM EST
    is not considered the middle east.  It is very much southwest Asia.  As a demographic, it is very different from the middle east and shouldn't be considered as such.  I know I'm nitpicking, but it matters to some.

    Parent
    This is bad (none / 0) (#23)
    by AlkalineDave on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:26:07 PM EST
    reporting.  The reporter obviously doesn't know the difference between seeds destined for planting and for bagels.  These were untreated seeds meant for planning.  Marjah is currently the hub for most TB activities in Helmand.  This was not a disruption of the bagel trade.  The idea is laughable.

    Reassuring. (none / 0) (#24)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:27:14 PM EST
    It is comforting to know that our tax dollars are being spent so wisely.

    Out with poppy-seed bagels.

    Now let's go after cream soda and dill pickles.

    You all (none / 0) (#27)
    by AlkalineDave on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:30:56 PM EST
    can't really believe we're out there disrupting legitmate poppy seed toppings for bagels can you?  This is incorrect reporting.

    Parent
    No laughing matter. (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:56:15 PM EST
    Poppy seeds are definitely a narcotic. Especially on a bagel.
    People have been known to take extended naps after consuming these potentially somnorific  substances. Sometimes these are consumed in ritual settings known as "brunches".

    Once ingested, the consumer often reacts in a crazed fashion. They will bang their hands on the table demanding "cream cheese" - a known stimulant that is said to enhance the bagel experience. Placing this substance on the poppy-seed bagel is particularly devastating if the offending bagel has been pre-treated in a manner which is called "toasting" by aficionados.

    This is often followed by the wanton ingestion of coffee - which has been known to cause delirium in a particularly intelligent strain of Brazilian mice.

    Parent

    You could work... (none / 0) (#48)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:30:20 PM EST
    on Madison Ave. handling the ONDCP or Partnership for a Drug Free America account spinning yarn like that lentinel...well played sir.

    I hear they pay really well for bullsh*t too.

    "wanton ingestion of coffee"...you're killin' me!

    Dave...we're just laughing instead of crying man, poking fun at the insanity of trying to stop people from growing, selling, and using the crop...when we could be sane and deal with the reality that people will always grow, sell, and use crop as long as there are people and poppys.

    I can't help but laugh at the Taliban...their brutal brand of tyranny brought poppy production to historic lows...now they're into the trade big time.  Money and power talks and Allah walks I guess.

    Parent

    Man from Mars (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by lentinel on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:36:46 PM EST
    A Martian lands in Central Park.
    His space ship took a bad bounce and his landing gear has been damaged.
    The Martian spots a vendor selling bagels.
    He asks the vendor if he could have one of those "wheels".

    The vendor replies: "These aren't wheels. They're bagels. You eat them. Try one."

    The Martian takes a bite, looks at the vendor and says, "You know... This would go good with Lox."

    Parent

    I've got no problem admitting the ills (none / 0) (#49)
    by AlkalineDave on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:36:24 PM EST
    that is the war on drugs.  However, poppy is bad for Afghanistan for a myriad of reasons.  The more we can legitimately switch to growing wheat the better.  The farmers will make more, they'll be more self sustaining on food production, and they Taliban will grow poorer.  These are just a few reasons to hope opium production in Afghanistan goes way down.  

    Parent
    I won't pretend to know... (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 08:57:09 AM EST
    what is best for Afghan farmers, having never been an Afghan or a farmer:)...but I will say that it should be up to Afghan farmers to decide...not the new government authorities, not the Taliban, and certainly not us.  I would think there is more money in the poppy crop than the wheat, but agree it is a good idea for a country to produce most of their own food, it is something too important to outsource.

    Assuming all those seeds were for planting...that was peoples livelyhood right there.  What will they do next year?

    Parent

    Wheat? (none / 0) (#66)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 10:15:45 AM EST
    Think coffee growers plight (none / 0) (#67)
    by AlkalineDave on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 10:27:08 AM EST
    and you get a lot of what happens to the poppy farmers.  If we can loosen TB control and get them on something sustainable.  They will actually make more.  The local farmers don't make much at all on the poppy product.  The real funds get dispensed up the chain.

    Parent
    I see... (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 10:31:42 AM EST
    can't farmers demand a bigger slice of the poppy action?  Or does that require negotiation with a gun with the Taliban?

    Parent
    Is it that easy? (none / 0) (#68)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 10:29:32 AM EST
    Same skill-set, same equipment, same cultivation techniques, same profit per acre?

    Dave said they can make more on wheat, and seems to know the score there better than I....but I just can't fathom how that is possible looking at world markets.  Sounds to me like the doomed idea to switch Columbian farmers to coffee from coca...it just don't make sense for the farmer, unless you're gonna pay artificially inflated prices for the coffe/wheat/what have you.

    Parent

    Oh (none / 0) (#71)
    by AlkalineDave on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 10:41:55 AM EST
    what I meant was how coffee growers in some countries are subject to coyotes, unfair prices, etc.  It's the same with poppy in Afghanistan.  The farmers pay protection to the Taliban, the Taliban facilitates and refines the crop, and in turn, the Taliban make the most cash.

    Targeting of poppy product is actually kinda smart.  Once the poppy is harvested, no targeting takes place of the local farmers.  The government waits till it's being refined or stored at an insurgent or Taliban storehouse and then raids.  That way the already poor farmers still have income and we disrupt the Taliban's source of income.

    As far as switching to wheat, the U.S. Department of Agriculture has funds set aside for this purpose.  We offer training, equipment, and other services to help out the switch.  This is one area where subsidies actually make sense :-P  We tried this in the 80s with a very limited push.  It will take non-military members and a concerted commitment to actually make it happen instead of this being another example of throwing money in the wind.

    Parent

    Wouldn't the bad guys... (none / 0) (#72)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 10:45:41 AM EST
    just turn around and start paying the farmers more to keep 'em growing poppy?  I mean the Taliban ain't just gonna lie down and watch their cash cow disappear.

    Parent
    Oh yeah (none / 0) (#74)
    by AlkalineDave on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 11:22:09 AM EST
    it's never as easy as down on paper.  However with global warming and the growing population I truly believe wheat will be the next oil in a way.

    Parent
    this is a great (none / 0) (#76)
    by AlkalineDave on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 11:29:33 AM EST
    article on land grabs for foodstuffs.  Really explains the global food situation into the future http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13697274

    Parent
    No, of course it's not so easy. (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 12:20:46 PM EST
    If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

    I seem to remember a discussion here on TL a while back regarding the push for Afghanis to grow some kind of rare flower for its use in the perfume industry.

    I don't remember considering it the golden ticket for Afghanistan either.


    Parent

    I don't know... (4.00 / 1) (#31)
    by desertswine on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:37:20 PM EST
    today its bagels, tomorrow its Cel-Ray soda.

    Parent
    Dr. Brown's! (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Peter G on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:24:16 PM EST
    Cel-Ray is the greatest!

    Parent
    I think everyone is wondering where the (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:40:11 PM EST
    legal line is.  How can a poppy seed in Afghanistan be illegal by American standards but a poppy seed in the United States not be?

    Parent
    It's not our standards (none / 0) (#33)
    by AlkalineDave on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:46:02 PM EST
    We aren't the decision makers on this. The ANA and Helmand Provincial Government is.  We are not the lead on drug raids we only lend assistance.  Marjah is the current hub for the Taliban in Helmand since the 22nd MEU helped uproot their last command and control.  Marjah was were the harvested poppy was being processed and is why the Helmand Provincial Government probably saw to confiscating the seeds.  This is not a call on the U.S. part or a reflection on our view of legality.

    Parent
    If we give aid to making this (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:57:17 PM EST
    raid possible, and we do.....we are complicit in the "reality" that poppy seeds are illegal.

    Parent
    so the alternative being (none / 0) (#41)
    by AlkalineDave on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:01:12 PM EST
    we decline to help requested assistance on Taliban raids because they are seizing seeds meant for planning?  How is this a better option?

    Parent
    I'm not saying anything is a better option (none / 0) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:08:12 PM EST
    at this time and juncture.  I've alway been against the depoppying of Afghanistan though as a first tier solution. But we'd better think about being enormous hypocrites before we are, or before we have to take away the rights of Americans to avoid becoming.

    Parent
    Well, (none / 0) (#34)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:48:05 PM EST
    maybe 82.5 TONS of poppy seeds stored in a facility in Afghanistan in the middle of one of the biggest opiate-growing and processing regions in Afghanistan along with a bunch of processed opiate drugs suggests the seeds are there to provide the next opiate crop cycle and thus are on one side of the legal line, while cooked, non-viable, poppy seeds on US bagels are to provide for flavor and perhaps increased sales of toothpicks and are thus on the other side of the legal line?

    Parent
    Okay, but what about a gardener like me (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:55:14 PM EST
    Because I've thought about this a lot since I do plant and grow poppy somniferum.  So I can't grow my poppies in my garden?  My gardening rights are going to be sensored now?

    Parent
    Well, from wiki (none / 0) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:59:41 PM EST
    Legality
    Opium poppy cultivation in the United Kingdom does not need a license, however, a license is required for those wishing to extract opium for medicinal products.[3]

    In the United States, opium is listed as a Schedule II controlled substance by the Drug Enforcement Administration. In addition, "Opium poppy and poppy straw" are also prohibited.[4] However, this is not typically enforced for poppies grown or sold for ornamental or food purposes.[1] There is a common misconception that there is a clear distinction between poppies useful for opium extraction and ornamental or food poppies. It is not difficult to manufacture opium tea with a high morphine content from opium flowers readily available at flower shops.[5][6][7]



    Parent
    We could go all sorts of places with this (none / 0) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:04:09 PM EST
    though.  See, I've been all around this issue cuz I live this tighta$$ military officer who will not live in a home environment that breaks any law.  I have had to be accountable for my poppies.  If I wanted to get a little high though on my poppies all I need is a little hot water and preferably a cup because I don't like drinking out of the pan :)  It isn't rocket science getting stoned on garden poppies.  It is legal to grow them now but if we are going to be a part of "poppy seeds are evil" and anyone wants to look up the facts on getting high on my garden poppies then what happens?

    Parent
    We could go all sorts of places, (none / 0) (#47)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:25:49 PM EST
    but I'm not sure why.

    82.5 tons/367 Billion poppy seeds in Afghanistan is illegal, according the Afghan gvt. Your garden poppies in Alabama, or wherever, are also illegal, according to the US gvt.

    The 82.5 tons/367 Billion seeds in Afghan were confiscated, the 27 in your backyard haven't been.

    Now if you go around telling people you're drinking poppy tea, the 27 in your backyard might end up being confiscated.

    Your choice I guess.


    Parent

    My poppies aren't illegal to grow (none / 0) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 05:59:31 PM EST
    right now unless I'm using them for other purposes outside of ornamental.  At least for now that is.  But if poppy seeds are going to be illegal then what happens?  Because right now poppy seeds aren't illegal.

    Parent
    Just to be clear that I feel safe growing (none / 0) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 06:12:19 PM EST
    them, for now that is.  Part of my past winter garden poppy seeds came from a gardener family that includes one person very versed in the law.  Do most people know what sort of flowers they are seeing in their winter garden?  Probably not.

    Parent
    google sez...you should stop reading about (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 11:02:27 PM EST
    poppies. Right now!
    My poppies were, or became, felonious; another gardener's might or might not be. The legality of growing opium poppies (whose seeds are sold under many names, including the breadseed poppy, Papaver paeoniflorum, and, most significantly, Papaver somniferum) is a tangled issue, turning on questions of nomenclature and epistemology that it took me the better part of the summer to sort out. But before I try to explain, let me offer a friendly warning to any gardeners who might wish to continue growing this spectacular annual: the less you know about it, the better off you are, in legal if not horticultural terms. Because whether or not the opium poppies in your garden are illicit depends not on what you do, or even intend to do, with them but very simply on what you know about them. Hence my warning: if you have any desire to grow opium poppies, you would be wise to stop reading right now.
    It's against the law to grow opium poppies in the United States, although enforcement has been inconsistent in the case of small-time gardeners who grow them as ornamental flowers. According to the Controlled Substances Act, every part of the opium poppy except the seed is illegal, including the seed pods, but some companies do import dried seed pods for decorative purposes
    >Anyway, I read an article in Harper's last year about how the writer (one
    >of the contributing editors? - I don't recall exactly) decided to grow
    >some and then found himself in the legal grey zone, which he tried to come
    >to some understanding about.  What he found was that yes indeed it is
    >illegal, a federal offense no less, to be growing opium poppies if you
    >were aware of what they actually were.  If the poppies were scored for
    >collecting opium that would be a dead giveaway to the authorities of
    >course, but otherwise there was some onus on the law's part (at least
    >in the courts) to prove that you knew you were growing opium poppies.
    >So, if a stranger asks a `merican what those lovely flowers are then
    >saying "poppies" (which could easily be any number of species) should
    >keep them in the clear.  At least this was the writer's take on it,
    >and he admitted that it wasn't absolutely certain as there was so much
    >official confusion on the subject.  Of course this doens't stop over
    >zealous local law officers from stomping through a US garden and ripping
    >them out.  There isn't much recourse for the gardener at that point.

    Section 841 of the act reads, "[I]t shall be unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally . . . to manufacture, distribute, or dispense, or possess with intent to manufacture, distribute, or dispense" opium poppies. The definition of "manufacturing" includes propagating--i.e., growing. Three things struck me as noteworthy about the language of the statute. The first was that it goes out of its way to state that opium poppy seeds are, in fact, legal, presumably because of their legitimate culinary uses. There seems to be a chicken-and-egg paradox here, however, in which illegal poppy plants produce legal poppy seeds from which grow illegal poppy plants.

    The second thing that struck me about the statute's language was the fact that, in order for growing opium poppies to be a crime, it must be done "knowingly or intentionally." Opium poppies are commonly sold under more than one botanical name, only one of which--Papaver somniferum--is specifically mentioned in the law, so it is entirely possible that a gardener could be growing opium poppies without knowing it. There would therefore appear to be an "innocent gardener" defense. Not that it would do me any good: at least some of the poppies I'd planted had been clearly labeled Papaver somniferum, a fact that I have--perhaps foolishly--confessed in these very pages to knowing. The third thing that struck me was the most stunning of all: the penalty for knowingly growing Papaver somniferum is a prison term of five to twenty years and a maximum fine of $1 million.

    I tolja' to stop reading...

    Parent
    Different flowers of the same species (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 11:28:46 PM EST
    have varying degrees of narcotic in them and are also often impossible to tell from other non narcotic poppies, and because the evil poppies are commercially grown it is very difficult to prosecute anyone for simply growing them.  I know what the google says in different places but the google isn't always the most accurate thing.

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    This discussion seems to give new meaning (none / 0) (#59)
    by Peter G on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 11:46:28 PM EST
    to Pete Seeger's classic anti-war song, "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?".  Perhaps our Afghanistan-based drug warriors were unduly influenced in childhood by the Wicked Witch of the West.

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    Ding ding ding ding! (none / 0) (#63)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 09:22:59 AM EST
    Bonus points for being able to reference an anti-war song and "Poppies, poppies!" from the most famous green lady ever!

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    Another problem (none / 0) (#35)
    by AlkalineDave on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 04:53:16 PM EST
    I have with this article is trying to suggest this raid was meaningless.  In the totality of poppy production in a whole province, of course one raid is a drop in the bucket.  However, the strategic importance of Marjah in financing Taliban Helmand operations does make it important.  None of ANA led raids does much to disrupt the already harvested poppy.  The Afghan Poppy Eradication Forces have had a much larger effect.  The idea isn't to completely destroy their crops.  It's to switch them to growing wheat and create a legitimate source of income for the farmers.

    So we dictate... (3.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Dadler on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 07:02:42 PM EST
    ...what they can grow?  how about we actually use our free american minds and votes to end the useless and violent prohibition of narcotics entirely.  prohibition is the problem, not flowers or the people who profit from flowers.  the root, no pun intended, of the problem is our puritanical hypocrisy.  the war on drugs will never be anything but the dismal, idiotic, anti-logical travesty it is.  we piss into the wind and then wonder why our eyes are burning.

    legalize, regulate, educate.

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    No (4.00 / 1) (#54)
    by AlkalineDave on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 07:39:30 PM EST
    As, I've pointed out repeatedly (comments above), the Provincial Governments, Helmand respectively, are the lead.  We help with requested assistance, but we are not the decision makers in regards to how to handle the poppy trade.

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    Not entirely true when you have Gates (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 22, 2009 at 11:30:13 PM EST
    having gone on the record that he desires to make war on poppies in Afghanistan.

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    Where is this comment? (none / 0) (#60)
    by AlkalineDave on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 01:26:11 AM EST
    I would love to see it.

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    Fine smarty britches (none / 0) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 06:57:07 AM EST
    I'm sure you have the google too but whatever, I'll just use mine.  Here tis.

    That deteriorating situation impelled US Defense Secretary Robert Gates to head to Europe to try to bring reluctant NATO members on board for a more aggressive anti-drug strategy last week. European countries have been reluctant to step into the morass of anti-drug efforts there, citing the risk of alienating the population and arguing that law enforcement is the responsibility of the Afghan government.


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    Yeah (none / 0) (#64)
    by AlkalineDave on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 09:25:43 AM EST
    that's a little different then declaring war on poppy.  He was trying to get ISAF countries to help, and seeing most of our NATO supporters are ISAF, it's not surprising.

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    No, he is very clear that (none / 0) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 09:54:23 AM EST
    ISAF countries needed to join his version of the Afghan drug wars.  His goals are very clear here and considering that he is the Sec of Def of the most powerful nation on earth I'm highly skeptical that the Afghans shoved their hand up his arse and began moving his mouth.

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    The war on drugs (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by AlkalineDave on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 10:30:40 AM EST
    is failing.  However, getting the population so heavily off of poppy would be a plus.  Even if the drug war ended today, it would take time for the reverberations to be felt in distant Afghanistan.  Ending the poppy trade is not a militaristic checkmate for us.  Counterinsurgency strategy is much more nuanced.  It's more about creating a stable, sustainable economy for the people of Afghanistan, and yes, I know it's easier said than done.

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    Completely agree with you here (none / 0) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 11:04:19 AM EST
    and I think that the ISAF countries view battling poppies as the least effective strategy.  I'm very much about giving the farmers other crop options but I hope to God we aren't trying to set them up with agri giants like Monsanto who are counter productive to small farmers being able to make a living.  I like to grow things and my family still ranches and does some growing in the dryland of Eastern Colorado.  Poppies are perennial in Afghanistan.  Once the plant is set and begins to produce you just keep showing up every year to harvest.  From a farmers perspective I'm going to have to tell you that that's a pretty sweet deal for a crop that sells itself.  These people obvious need reliable crop replacements that will truly benefit their families like growing poppies does, otherwise we won't change a thing and it won't be just the Taliban shooting at us.

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    Yes (none / 0) (#75)
    by AlkalineDave on Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 11:25:57 AM EST
    making the wrong move on this issue could turn some of the populace against us.

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