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Letterman Formally Apologizes to Sarah Palin

Thank goodness, this is over. David Letterman, losing the p.r. war over his boorish joke about Bristol Palin, the 18 year old daughter of Sarah Palin, has apologized. It will air on tonight's Late Show. Palin was milking it for all it was worth. Yes, it was her 14 year old that went to the baseball game but Letterman was clearly referring to Bristol, her 18 year old.

I thought Conan O'Brien's Paris Hilton joke was worse, yet nobody jumped on him.

Now, onto tonight's Bachelorette, Weeds and Nurse Jackie, and if there's time, "I'm a Celebrity, Get me Out of Here."

This is an open thread, all topics welcome

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    I don't know. For me, it pretty much (5.00 / 13) (#2)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 08:26:27 PM EST
    would not have mattered if Letterman had made that crack about a 60 yr old - it was in poor taste and offensive.  And he needed to apologize to both Willow and Bristol, since one was presumed to be the butt of the joke and Letterman tried to finesse it to being about the other.

    I'm not a Palin fan, but I have to tell myself that if I want this kind of thing to stop, I can't pick and choose which sexist comments I will be offended by based on whether I like or dislike, support or don't support, the people involved.

    As for Paris Hilton, there is a perfect example of why it should not have mattered that Bristol Palin is over 18 - because so is Paris.  Why was there no outcry over Conan's "joke?"  All I can figure is that Paris ignored it, so everyone else did, too.

    I only hope I live long enough to see some change on this front, but I'm not counting on it.

    AMEN!!!! (5.00 / 4) (#16)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:56:05 PM EST
    The crack about Palin's "slutty flight attendant look" was pretty da*n offensive all by itself, too.

    Parent
    But she does dress that way (2.80 / 5) (#84)
    by lilybart on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:01:21 PM EST
    Sorry, she wore a skirt so tight that when she sat on stage on Memorial DAY, it went up to her thighs. and she was wearing silly red patent strappy cork heels to an official event.

    She had hair extensions and toe decorations in those stupid shoes again at another official event in NY, where Willow was allowed to wear hillbilly short shorts on stage.

    AND Candies, is disgusting and allowing, no pushing Bristol to be associated with them is also sickening.

    She is very into being the HOT gov and she is a disaster for her children.

    Parent

    I guess yours is the "she was just (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:32:56 PM EST
    asking for it" attitude, huh?

    I guess she didn't get the memo that otherwise attractive public officials are supposed to wear whatever it takes to make them less attractive - baggy clothes, flats, no makeup, no-nonsense hair cut with a minimum of styling.

    How dare a woman in the public eye wear silly shoes!!!  Or let her teenager wear shorts.  The nerve!

    Parent

    Hillary knows how to dress (none / 0) (#90)
    by lilybart on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:09:25 PM EST
    so does Kathleen Sebelius and she always looks lovely and professional.

    Parent
    And (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:09:33 PM EST
    Michelle Obama wore grey sweat pants with ugly expensive green tennis shoes, and that ugly dress-thing while dragging her children around Europe.

    Seriously - who cares?  Didn't we hear enough of this during the primaries?

    Parent

    Oh, the old "she deserved it" (4.00 / 4) (#94)
    by Cream City on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:17:54 PM EST
    justification.  Works for rape, works for rape "jokes."  

    Parent
    MileHI (1.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Cream City on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 09:25:51 AM EST
    thinks rape jokes are funny, it seems.  Sometimes, the reactions here are just beyond belief.  Or at least beyond belief systems based in humane thought.

    Parent
    Your attempts to bully... (none / 0) (#127)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 09:38:58 AM EST
    ...won't work on me, so go ahead and put me in your little book of hate if it makes you feel better.  

    To conflate this into a joke about rape is small minded and does a real disservice to those how suffer from actual physical/sexual assault.  But you don't care about that, only serving your bloodlust for extracting your pound of flesh in the name of poor little Sarah.  

    Parent

    Paris Hilton (5.00 / 10) (#3)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 08:31:50 PM EST
    should have made a big deal of the "joke".  It was sick too.  If she had, she may have gotten an apology too.  

    Women need to stand up for themselves.  Crassly insulting one of us insults all of us.  Going after someone's daughters, I don't care if they're 14 or 18, is wrong.

    All politicians "parade" their children.  Unfortunately only some of the children face the harassment.  Children should be off-limits -- period.  18 isn't even drinking age.  Bristol is just a kid.  Bristol had a baby.  That baby was made public.  Had the baby been kept secret, Palin would have been criticized for keeping her secret.

    I don't like Palin's policies, but I'm glad she did what she did...and I'm glad that Letterman -- facing the Tuesday protest -- apologized.

    Criticize Palin's policies, make jokes about her  (and BTW, the sl*tty flight attendant joke went without comment).  Leave her kids alone.

    Are you suggesting that it is only (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 07:10:36 PM EST
    "publicity-seeking social climbers" who are the object of Letterman-style comedy?

    Good lord, do you have any idea how hard it is to co-exist in a professional sense and have to overcome and break through an environment where men find it great fun to make prurient "jokes" about women  - and not just the "publicity-seeking social climbers" - jokes that are usually related to how f--able they are?  Has it occurred to you that one of the reasons men feel entitled to keep doing it is because other men with national broadcast viewership, who call themselves "comedians," tell them it's okay?  The current president engaged in it during the campaign, the media took up the cause - and not in a good way, but as if they had been freed to show us just how ugly they could be - and then they all just stood around and blamed the objects of their sexism.

    Jokes like Letterman's and Conan's contribute to the ongoing objectification of women, which takes place at work and at school, and I find it kind of surprising that you think the answer to it is to just ignore it and move on.

    Ignoring it doesn't make it stop, doesn't make it go away - it makes those who engage in it think it's okay to keep doing it.

    What really bothers me though, is that you are perpetuating the idea that some women deserve to be treated badly - that's too close to "she was just asking for it" for comfort - which is, in my opinion, indefensible.

    Parent

    For a dad of a daughter in sports (5.00 / 0) (#124)
    by Cream City on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 09:32:24 AM EST
    this is a surprising comment.  So was Imus funny, when he called young women like your daughter whores?  Perhaps you are unaware of the decades of disgraceful societal behaviors -- including comedians' "jokes" -- about pioneering women in sports.  

    And so, perhaps you are unaware that because some of those pioneering women in sports were brave enough to speak up about such behaviors, on behalf of the many women in schools and colleges who suffered as well, but were not "names" so were not heard, there has been some change.

    On this issue of Letterman's behavior as it reflects societal behaviors toward women, Sarah Palin speaks for me, she speaks for my daughter -- and yours -- and I am glad that she spoke up.

    Parent

    Paris Hilton made sex tapes (4.00 / 4) (#85)
    by lilybart on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:02:00 PM EST
    Get a grip people.

    Parent
    I'll give Letterman props for this line (none / 0) (#8)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 09:46:54 PM EST
    And since it was a joke I told, I feel that I need to do the right thing here and apologize for having told that joke. It's not your fault that it was misunderstood, it's my fault.

    At least he didn't say he was sorry 'if we misunderstood and were offended" like it was our fault. That's gotten real old . . .

    Hopefully his writers have gotten a lesson in the treatment of women and girls.

    Parent

    Props? (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:57:47 PM EST
    In what way was it "misunderstood"?  If it hadn't been "misunderstood" to refer to Willow instead of Bristol, it would all have been just hunky-dory?

    Parent
    Meaning it was a poorly told joke (none / 0) (#21)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:21:15 PM EST
    on top of it being just plain wrong. Usually we are blamed for our lack of understanding and getting offended. He took responsibility for telling a bad joke and telling it so poorly it was misunderstood beyond it's original extremely offensive content.

    Now I have since seen the apology and it's lacking to be sure. He did think it was ok to say it about Bristol and even goes so far as to say he checked her age beforehand {headdesk}. My props were strictly for not blaming us for misunderstanding. How many times have we heard that line in the past year and a half? I do believe he would not have told the joke about Willow, BUT he's still wrong that it would have been ok to say it about Bristol. Not quite sure where he's settled on that, only the future will tell when it comes to his sexist/offensive jokes. I won't be watching . . .

    Parent

    I take your point (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:36:47 PM EST
    but I'm not sure it's worthy of props that he isn't utterly pig-headed, just somewhat pig-headed.

    I don't think he was aiming it at Willow, either, because he's right when he says that's not something he'd do.  But boy, I sure wonder where these men's spouses/partners are when these guys are sneering at and trashing prominent women in sexual terms.

    I won't be watching him to find out if he's learned any lessons, either.  The only comedy shows I've watched for years are Stewart and Colbert, neither of whom ever, ever goes there and both of whose humor manages to be cutting and hard-hitting without ever being mean somehow.

    Parent

    lol!~ ok, very good point taken here (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:10:11 AM EST
    I just got so sick of offensive men apologizing because I 'didn't understand and became offended'. As Cesar Milan would say "That's a Red Zone aggression", me in the red zone that is {grin}

    I've been hanging on the Food network and Planet Green along with some of the trashy Housewives shows later at night. I would tune into Letterman if he had a guest I wanted to see, but that's over now.

    Stewart and Colbert are smart comedians, imo. Very good in dealing with the now and the absurdity of it all.

    Parent

    Paul Krugman (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 09:12:31 PM EST
    is apparently getting the change he needs from the Obama Administration.

    For my own part, I have never felt less optimistic about this administration.

    Interesting ... (none / 0) (#24)
    by FreakyBeaky on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:35:47 PM EST
    ... (to me at least) that he's getting more optimistic just as I'm getting less so.  Also sounds like a case of lowered expectations, i.e., now that Krugman has given up hope of taking the banks into receivership and of avoiding a lost decade, he feels much better.

    (On the other hand, he says he's depressed in the same article).  

    It would be good if he were right and I were wrong.  

    Parent

    What channel are you watching? (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:00:55 PM EST
    I've been sitting at home all day waiting for vet calls about a sick pet and watching TV to pass the time.  I've seen hours and hours and hours of coverage of Iran and approximately 20 minutes cumulative on Palin-Letterman.

    Palin isn't even the issue, nor is Letterman.  The issue is the routine personal demeaning of women in the public eye as fodder for yucks.  For some of us anyway, that's hardly a trivial issue.

    Dalton, they got it from (none / 0) (#34)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:25:10 AM EST
    the fact that the Mousavi rally was, you know, canceled by order of the mullahs.  They later relented for some reason as yet unexplained.

    I would not automatically jeer at CNN's reporting on this when Christiane Amanpour, who is Iranian and actually speaks the language herself, plus has contacts all through various levels of both the government and the opposition, is on the ground there.

    Parent

    Christiane Amanpour (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:02:31 AM EST
    It didn't occur to my brain she would be reporting on this. Thanks for mentioning it. I may watch some CNN tomorrow to try and catch her reports.

    Parent
    I've generally attached my brain (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:47:59 AM EST
    when she's reporting/doing a story. Even more so since I saw her speak at (iirc) a Clinton Global mtg. I believe the subject was religion and power.

    You're right, she does have a good eye. I wish more did. Lordy, I hate sounding like my parents, but I remember when . . .  we had actual reporters/news media.

    Parent

    I don't gitcha, J (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by rghojai on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:02:54 AM EST
    Shades of past days here of feeling like there's some PDS... and I would sooner chew off my arm than vote for her or vote Republican. Still, though, Letterman's comments about an 18-year-old strike me as contemptible... and he too often struck me as a mean-spirited, er, Richard... .

    If it's fair game to go after kids when they're used as campaign props, yuk it up a minute after the eldest Obama kid turns 18, when someone launches maliaturned18.com and gets ugly.  

    I said they were boorish (4.00 / 3) (#51)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 03:39:07 AM EST
    I certainly don't approve of his comments but I disapprove more of Palin's milking them. And she did trot Bristol out on the campaign trail, and Bristol has become a spokesperson for abstinence for teens. My point is I'm sick of the Palins and glad Letterman apologized if only because it will get the story out of the news and be one less platform for Palin.

    Parent
    You may not like Palin but come on... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by ding7777 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 07:06:21 AM EST
    Candidates are expected to "showcase" the family

    Parent
    You know...it's easy enough (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 07:19:25 AM EST
    to find the irony in the Republican governor's eldest daughter getting pregnant while she was still in high school, but I am hard-pressed to understand why people can't just say it was wrong for Letterman to make the joke he did without adding the "but."

    Or why Palin is somehow wrong and should have known better than to "trot out" her family when she was running on the GOP ticket - as if "what did she expect?" is the counter to the ugly joke.  The children of candidates and public figures being off limits for this kind of "joking" does not mean that as soon as a candidate wishes to be seen in public with his or her family that all bets are off and everyone's fair game.

    As for Bristol now speaking out about abstinence, I really don't get why that is yet another reason why she should have expected ugly jokes to be made about her.  I don't understand why it isn't possible that, having found out the hard way what happens when one isn't abstinent, she might have some meaningful real-life experience to share that might help someone else.  I don't care who you are or how well-known you are, being pregnant at 17 and a mother before you graduate from high school is no picnic.

    And as much as I am not a Palin supporter, why is Palin being blamed for "milking it" when it was Letterman who just couldn't get why the joke was so offensive?  Should she have just dropped it as soon as Letterman explained that he really meant the joke to be about Bristol?

    If the comment was wrong, it was wrong, regardless of which young woman it was about, and regardless of who her mother is, and how much you like or don't like her and her family.  

    It's the principle of the thing.

    Parent

    Personally, I'm not so sure Letterman (5.00 / 0) (#68)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 09:03:18 AM EST
    isn't the one who "milked it" for his own gain. He was up against Conan's debut, and Palin is always good for ratings. Whether she appears in person or is dragged in through some controversial statement doesn't matter. He beat Conan in the ratings last week. It was the media that took this to the level it went.

    They wanted to promote the outrage, they did, and the only remorse Letterman is dealing with is how many advertisers pulled their dollars from his hour yesterday.

    BTW, I read that those women of the View did a fast 180 yesterday, as well. Last week they spewed their disdain and "she deserved it" meme, and I read that today they actually "took her side". The protests must have really worked on the advertisers. Honor is bought.

    Parent

    I like Letterman (none / 0) (#54)
    by Bemused on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:06:02 AM EST
     we were big fans of his old afternoon show back when I was in college and I share his sardonic sense of humor. I don't think he needs to be flogged endlessly but, the joke was offensive and stupid and any parent, even one you don't like, has every right and most would probably say responsibility, to stand up for their kid.

      It's  one thing if it was some asinine classmate makes a crude joke about a 14 year old but it's entirely different when a rich and powerful total stranger does it.

      You seem to miss the fact that had Palin not gone on the offensive there would not have been an apology. You also flagrantly misrepresent the context of the joke because it was the 14 year old who was at the Yankee's game so it was obviously not clear the joke was about the older daughter. In fact, no one would ever have even considered that a possibility but for the self serving  post facto "clarification." anyone saying otherwise is lying.

      Clearly Letterman (and you) has some visceral animosity toward Palin which clouds judgment and any sense of fairness or  decency.

      The tired and pathetic routine of defending bad behavior by saying other bad or worse behavior somehow lessens its wrongfulness needs to stop. Wrong is wrong. If you are in fact more outraged by some other offensive comments then criticze those other comments but don't play foolish games that only serve to display your worst nature.

    Parent

    Malia wont' work for Candies (2.00 / 1) (#87)
    by lilybart on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:04:08 PM EST
    the slutty teen shoe and clothing company, so nothing to blame her for.

    And I bet those kids know that abstinence is a nice concept, but birth control will keep their futures open for them.

    Parent

    Oh, it's not over. (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by Cream City on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:42:34 AM EST
    We have long memories.

    Very, very long. (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:51:26 AM EST
    Oh no, should Dave be scared? (2.66 / 3) (#86)
    by lilybart on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:02:51 PM EST
    Comedians tell jokes.

    get a sense of humor

    Parent

    Get a sense of reality (none / 0) (#93)
    by Cream City on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:16:36 PM EST
    yourself.  There is hope for you, if not for Letterman.  Sure, he told a joke.  But good comedians tell good jokes that work -- that is, that work with the majority of the populace that knows the difference.  Probably because we're the ones with daughters.  

    Parent
    My 7 year old daughter knows a joke. nt (none / 0) (#107)
    by lilybart on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 06:31:15 PM EST
    This (none / 0) (#125)
    by Cream City on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 09:33:22 AM EST
    is a strange comment, even for you.

    Parent
    It was not Letterman's finest moment (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by lucky leftie on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:19:08 AM EST
    but plenty of comedians have made jokes about Bristol Palin that were just as bad.  A sample-

    "In an interview with Fox News, Gov. Sarah Palin's daughter, 18-year-old Bristol Palin -- remember Bristol Palin, who had the baby? Well, she talked in the interview. She said, 'A year ago, I never would have thought I would become a mom or that my mom was going to be chosen to be a vice presidential candidate.' Oddly enough, both things happened because some guy failed to take the proper precautions." --Jay Leno

    "It's true, John McCain's running mate, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, has revealed that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant. Palin said, 'We should never have introduced her to John Edwards.'" --Conan O'Brien

    "Sarah Palin is going to drop the first puck at the Philadelphia Flyers' hockey game. Then Palin will spend the rest of the game trying to keep the hockey players out of her daughter's penalty box." --Conan O'Brien

    So why no outrage over the the other wisecracks?  And does Palin really believe Letterman is a pedophile, as her spokesperson suggested?  I suspect not but it's a very weird accusation to make.  The family always seems to be embroiled in noisy, public conflict with someone, and their feud with Letterman just feels like the latest installment.    


    So answer me this (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:27:57 AM EST
    If these are so funny, why aren't they making fun of the Obama family?  Or Biden's daughter's drug problems?

    Parent
    I suspect that if and when (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by lucky leftie on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:43:27 AM EST
    any irregularities in the Obamas' family life are revealed, comedians will be there to exploit them.  That's what comedians do.

    And let me claify, I didn't like Letterman's jokes, but the fact that Palin is making an issue of his remarks while letting the others go suggests there is an element of opportunism in her outrage.  Once again, using her kids for political gain.  

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:52:02 AM EST
    There've been plenty "irregularities" in the Obama family - from his half brother who can't get back into England because he's accused of sexual assault on a child, to the aunt who is in this country illegally, but didn't have anything done to her during the election, to the corrupt politician in Kenya, who may or may not be related to Obama, but used Barack's name in corrupt campaign over there, to well, pretty much anything about Michelle.  

    I don't like what Sarah Palin stands for, but maybe she's speaking out because she has finally had enough.  But again - it only seems appropriate to go after the children of female politicians these days.

    Parent

    Please provide a source (none / 0) (#78)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 11:00:12 AM EST
    but the fact that Palin is making an issue of his remarks while letting the others go suggests there is an element of opportunism in her outrage

    Link us, please, to how and when Palin took this to the media, rather than the way it was...the media taking it to Palin.

    This behavior is so unbecoming. The democrats have really stooped to republican tactics. Being an independent has its advantages.

    Parent

    I don't know... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:33:49 AM EST
    but if you wanna write the jokes and share, I could always use a good laugh.

    Parent
    Obama doesn't drag his kids (none / 0) (#88)
    by lilybart on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:04:40 PM EST
    everywhere he goes like human shields.

    His kids are in school.

    Parent

    You seem to conveniently forget (5.00 / 0) (#126)
    by Cream City on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 09:34:51 AM EST
    the Obamas agreeing to having their daughters, little girls, interviewed for one of those asinine entertainment shows.

    Parent
    Biden has a daughter? (none / 0) (#95)
    by denise k on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:28:05 PM EST
    I suspect that they don't joke about Biden's daughter, because 1) no one cares/is aware of her and 2) Biden never paraded her around like Palin did Bristol and her beau.  (Those two go together, by the way.)  

    Plus, I heard the joke and thought it was about A-rod -- not the kid.  Just like the John Edwards joke above was about Edwards, not Palin's family.

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#97)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:59:49 PM EST
    Biden's daughter Ashley, was arrested in 2002 outside a Chicago bar for an altercation with police.  And my bad - she wasn't arrested for drugs, but there was a video - of her all over the net allegedly snorting coke.

    But that's the point - you didn't hear about it,e ven though she campaigned for her father.

    Parent

    Imagine if that had been Chelsea Clinton, (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by caseyOR on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 06:06:17 PM EST
    instead of Ashley Biden. All three Clintons would have been publicly castigated for years. And you can bet if Hillary had still had the nerve to run for President the Chelsea story and whatever footage there was of her would have run on a never-ending loop.

    So, word of caution, if your mother is a politician you better always be on your best behavior.

    Parent

    I presume (none / 0) (#108)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 06:33:11 PM EST
    Billy Carter's mother was a politician then. I'm not sure any politician's relative got more play than Billy did, and it was prior to 24 hour a day news/gossip fan the flames television.

    Parent
    No, but (none / 0) (#129)
    by jbindc on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 02:42:48 PM EST
    Billy Carter was - he ran for mayor of Plains, GA in 1976.  He also became a registered foreign agent for Libya and had Senate hearings opened up to investigate him, so Billy, as an adult, made himself a target.

    Parent
    Palin should send Letterman... (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:31:31 AM EST
    some flowers for keeping her in the spotlight for at least another 15.

    If a comedian can't joke about a teen pregnancy in an abstinence only family in the public eye...what the hell can you joke about?  I mean this stuff is gold for a late-night talk show host....err, it was gold before the pc police hit the siren.

    Parent

    C'mon, kdog, you're brighter than that (3.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 11:07:19 AM EST
    Joking about teen parenting can actually be done tastefully, I bet.

    These jokes were way outside consentual. The themes were: Rape, Prostitution, and Sluts. Not teen pregnancy.


    Parent

    And Conan gets the gold (none / 0) (#69)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 09:09:01 AM EST
    George Mason University did a breakdown of late night hosts jokes a little while back and compared to many politicians, the Palins were actually far down the list at being the target of the jab. Only in one month (last September) did they top the list for political jokes.

    When it came to jokes about pregnancy in the Palin family, here was the breakdown.

    Number of Palin pregnancy jokes by comedian:

    Conan O'Brien 20
    Jay Leno 15
    David Letterman 8
    Jon Stewart 4

    Parent

    And maybe (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 09:41:41 AM EST
    Because Conan was on later and no one watched him, that no one noticed? My guess is Leno will last a year in prime time and I'd be surprised if Conan lasts until the first of the year.

    Letterman has always been a joke.  Now he's proving it.

    Parent

    So, JUST about pregnancy? (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 11:04:56 AM EST
    These jokes wouldn't have made it to that list.

    One about rape, one about prostitution, and one about being a slut.

    How about a breakdown of the number of jokes simply pointed at the Palin's children.


    Parent

    Is Jon Stewart... (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 09:11:56 AM EST
    feeling ok?...:)

    Parent
    Jon Stewart (none / 0) (#72)
    by CoralGables on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 09:30:59 AM EST
    gets the gold in damn near every other category to help ease his pain at losing this one.

    Parent
    I hadn't heard about those (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:31:35 AM EST
    They're just as vile, actually more vile, than Letterman's.  Shame on all of them.  What the heck is the matter with these people?

    Why no outrage?  That's easy.  Because Palin herself didn't raise a stink about them and so the wider world didn't know about them.  Which is why it was absolutely necessary for her to finally do it with this one.  Maybe those other foul goons will watch their mouths a little more carefully in the future.

    But I won't know because I won't watch them.

    Parent

    I think this publicity is good. (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Bemused on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 10:02:46 AM EST
      As a culture we've become so inundated with coarse and nasty personal attacks many people don't seem to understand that it's a bad thing to be coarse and nasty to people.

      "Oh, it's just a joke, get over it," should not be the response in this or many other contexts. Reading the litany of other examples of similar stuff should make us step back and ask where are we going and why rather than claims it's alright because everyone is doing it.

      I'm really not an old fuddy-duddy prude but I'm finding myself more and more in agreement with Grandma on stuff like this.

    Parent

    Maybe we are getting... (none / 0) (#80)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 11:06:02 AM EST
    coarser and nastier, and less prim and proper...or we're just taking ourselves way too seriously.

    Parent
    Kdog, I think there has to be some common (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by vml68 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 11:23:56 AM EST
    decency and some limits to so called "jokes".
    Let's say some one has an extremely unattractive  child (or one with a deformity), would you defend making jokes about the child's looks (deformity) by saying it's the truth or would you realise that truth or not, it is mean, offensive and hurtful to the child and his/her loved ones.

    we're just taking ourselves way too seriously.


    Parent
    Personally... (none / 0) (#92)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:13:49 PM EST
    I don't see much humor in child deformity, so I probably wouldn't be amused by such a joke, or jokes about kids in general, who may not yet understand the difference between sarcastic wisecrack humor and serious statement.

    Sh*t, I think a lot of adults can't understand the difference.

    I think its a cultural thing that makes me butt heads with my TL friends on stuff like this...I come from a ball-busting culture where the way to know if someone likes you is if they crack jokes about you.  Not being made of fun would be cause for concern.  In my world, Palin should be flattered Dave cared enough to joke about her.

    Besides, I look for common decency in eveyrday life and interactions...I look to comedians to through common decency out the window and make me laugh...that is why we go see stand-up or tune into comedy programming, no?

    Parent

    You say you would not be amused by (none / 0) (#96)
    by vml68 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 01:44:11 PM EST
    jokes about child deformity but there are people who do and they could say to you "don't take it so seriously, it is just a joke".
    I am not trying to pick on you (or maybe I am... 'cos I like you and think there's hope for you yet.. :-)!)
    I look for comedians to make me laugh by making intelligent jokes and pointing out our absurdities without being ugly. You can skewer a person or a person's opinion without demeaning that person. That to me is the hallmark of a great comedian.

    When you talk about coming from a culture where people who like you make jokes at your expense, I am sure that when they do they are not mean-spirited about it and there is a lot of good-natured back and forth going on. That is very different from what Letterman engaged in, he ridiculed someone on national TV who for all intents and purposes is a stranger to him.

    I come from a ball-busting culture where the way to know if someone likes you is if they crack jokes about you.  Not being made of fun would be cause for concern.  In my world, Palin should be flattered Dave cared enough to joke about her.


    Parent
    By all means... (none / 0) (#98)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 02:05:58 PM EST
    pick on me...I appreciate it.  And I don't mean to tell anybody not to be offended or not to pick on Dave over the jokes...I'm just more offended by the offense taken:)

    Parent
    Then you are seriously underestimating (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by vml68 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 02:17:02 PM EST
    most mothers response when their child is attacked/ridiculed/mocked, no matter whether the comments/jokes are justified or not.

    I'm just more offended by the offense taken:)

    As my mother would say...you may be an underachieving, lazy, irresponsible daughter but you are MY underachieving, lazy, irresponsible daughter!
    Well, those might not be her exact words but the sentiment is.. :-)

    Parent

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 02:23:50 PM EST
    My mother, a pretty docile peace-loving person, would always say that she was a mama bear and no one had better harm any one of her cubs or they would feel her wrath.

    Parent
    Two ways to handle it... (none / 0) (#101)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 03:00:50 PM EST
    the Palin "how dare you I'm so offended" way, or the Billy Hoyle from "White Men Can't Jump" way...

    "Your mother is an astronaut"
    "My mother is too drunk to be an astronaut"


    Parent
    I would suggest (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 11:11:47 AM EST
    Why no outrage?  That's easy.  Because Palin herself didn't raise a stink about them and so the wider world didn't know about them.

    That the reason is Palin doesn't watch these late night shows. She's a hardworking governor and mother. She is dependent upon someone telling her about these episodes, and when they do, the media goes crazy trying to get interviews with her. She is a RATINGS GETTER!!
     

    Parent

    Coincidence? (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 08:44:23 AM EST
    Letterman exploited her daughters because it would bring HIM ratings. That's also why the media grabs onto any story they can about her. Matt Lauer got lots of face time on the TV and internet from his interview of Palin.

    Parent
    Yes, it's up to the mother to object. (5.00 / 2) (#102)
    by huzzlewhat on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 04:16:55 PM EST
    Because Palin herself didn't raise a stink about them and so the wider world didn't know about them.  Which is why it was absolutely necessary for her to finally do it with this one.  Maybe those other foul goons will watch their mouths a little more carefully in the future.

    You're absolutely right that it's up to Palin to raise a stink because no one else would. Just as Hillary Clinton had to force the issue with David Schuster's remark about Chelsea being "pimped out." No one else was going to step forward. Even when it works, it's a double-edged sword -- Clinton succeeded in putting that kind of talk about Chelsea absolutely out of bounds for the rest of the campaign, even while she herself was being called every name in the book including, yes, an insincere political opportunist for raising the objection.

    Parent

    Why? As always, of course: Context (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Cream City on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 10:40:14 AM EST
    You don't date those comments.  At least one was during the campaign (I recall it, with disgust), when it was open-season on Palin from all quarters, and when a candidate is less likely to complain (or less likely to be allowed to do so by McCain's camp).

    More to the point, probably, is that media are watching more now, watching Letterman as to how he handles the new competition from Conan -- watching for signs of desperation, such as disgusting jokes.

    Above all, though, none of the lines above is about a 14-year-old girl, which took Letterman's line into the realm of joking about statutory rape.  And I think that he still doesn't get that.  So I'm glad that Sarah Palin did.

    Parent

    It gets more "Bushian" every day (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:25:51 AM EST
    But apparently it's getting traction.  This smells an awful lot like a Bush maneuver....

    President Obama swept to office on the promise of a new kind of politics, but then how do you explain last week's dismissal of federal Inspector General Gerald Walpin for the crime of trying to protect taxpayer dollars? This is a case that smells of political favoritism and Chicago rules.

    A George W. Bush appointee, Mr. Walpin has since 2007 been the inspector general for the Corporation for National and Community Service, the federal agency that oversees such subsidized volunteer programs as AmeriCorps. In April 2008 the Corporation asked Mr. Walpin to investigate reports of irregularities at St. HOPE, a California nonprofit run by former NBA star and Obama supporter Kevin Johnson. St. HOPE had received an $850,000 AmeriCorps grant, which was supposed to go for three purposes: tutoring for Sacramento-area students; the redevelopment of several buildings; and theater and art programs.

    Mr. Walpin's investigators discovered that the money had been used instead to pad staff salaries, meddle politically in a school-board election, and have AmeriCorps members perform personal services for Mr. Johnson, including washing his car.

    SNIP

    We've long disliked the position of inspectors general, on grounds that they are creatures of Congress designed to torment the executive. Yet this case appears to be one in which an IG was fired because he criticized a favorite Congressional and executive project (AmeriCorps), and refused to bend to political pressure to let the Sacramento mayor have his stimulus dollars.

    There's also the question of how Mr. Walpin was terminated. He says the phone call came from Norman Eisen, the Special Counsel to the President for Ethics and Government Reform, who said the President felt it was time for Mr. Walpin to "move on," and that it was "pure coincidence" he was asked to leave during the St. HOPE controversy. Yet the Administration has already had to walk back that claim.

    That's because last year Congress passed the Inspectors General Reform Act, which requires the President to give Congress 30 days notice, plus a reason, before firing an inspector general. A co-sponsor of that bill was none other than Senator Obama. Having failed to pressure Mr. Walpin into resigning (which in itself might violate the law), the Administration was forced to say he'd be terminated in 30 days, and to tell Congress its reasons

    SNIP

    Iowa Republican Chuck Grassley, a co-sponsor of the IG Reform Act, is now demanding that the Corporation hand over its communications on this mess. He also wants to see any contact with the office of First Lady Michelle Obama, who has taken a particular interest in AmeriCorps, and whose former chief of staff, Jackie Norris, recently arrived at the Corporation as a "senior adviser."

    ======
    Then, in an unrelated matter, there's this:

    The Obama administration is fighting to block access to names of visitors to the White House, taking up the Bush administration argument that a president doesn't have to reveal who comes calling to influence policy decisions.

    Despite President Barack Obama's pledge to introduce a new era of transparency to Washington, and despite two rulings by a federal judge that the records are public, the Secret Service has denied msnbc.com's request for the names of all White House visitors from Jan. 20 to the present. It also denied a narrower request by the nonpartisan watchdog group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, which sought logs of visits by executives of coal companies.




    It's also worth noting (none / 0) (#65)
    by Bemused on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:48:28 AM EST
     that Johnson was a campaign supporter of Obama and gave speeches on his behalf during the primary race (and maybe later but I don't know).

     

    Parent

    Yep. (none / 0) (#67)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:54:59 AM EST
    But of course, that had nothing to do with this, right?  ;)

    Parent
    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Bemused on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 09:19:31 AM EST
      Or, as Pete Townsend said, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

    Parent
    It may be over (none / 0) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 08:13:23 PM EST
    but I'm not so sure Letterman lost the PR war. Two weeks ago the Tonight Show with Conan beat the Late Show with Letterman by the biggest margin in 17 years. Last week Letterman beat Conan.

    That could also be a Conan issue (none / 0) (#7)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 09:37:50 PM EST
    Iirc, his ratings were sliding before this erupted into such a big deal. If his show was as good as his first night's ratings, I doubt folks would have been cruising over to see what Letterman was saying in droves.

    Parent
    I think you're right (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 02:36:20 AM EST
    A Conan issue.  Not in the same class as Leno, a definite degrading of the storied Tonight franchise.

    But what do I know, I still miss Carson.  Slim chance that his like will ever be seen again.

    Parent

    Speaking of humor (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:23:06 AM EST
    that isn't mean-spirited...

    I'm with you.  I really miss Carson.

    Parent

    At our house (none / 0) (#6)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 09:25:15 PM EST
    It's Rockford Files and Quincy reruns...DVRed

    I miss Rockford Files (none / 0) (#9)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:06:24 PM EST
    200 dollars a day, plus expenses.

    My favorite still being when Rocky was taking Jim for lobster on the cheap. Jim asks, "is it fresh?" and Rocky answers..."fresh frozen"

    Parent

    You don't realize (none / 0) (#10)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:19:34 PM EST
    how cheesy the shows are until you watch them in reruns -- but they certainly are quality TV compared to some things on today.

    My favorite is the gigantic answering machine on the desk "I'm Jim Rockford, at the tone...".  And the dial telephones....

    Parent

    But give them credit (none / 0) (#28)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:48:41 PM EST
    the best attorney on the show was a female. I just looked up Beth Davenport (Gretchen Corbett) and couldn't believe she was only in 32 episodes. My memory puts her in every show.

    Parent
    You're right though (none / 0) (#29)
    by CoralGables on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:57:35 PM EST
    even if I was going to miss the show I never wanted to miss the message on Jim's recorder at the start of the show. Similar to Mork and Mindy when I never wanted to miss Mork calling Orson at the end of that show.

    Parent
    Uh, (none / 0) (#11)
    by bocajeff on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:27:38 PM EST
    Paris Hilton is an 'entertainer' best known for her sex tape. The Palin's are a political family. There is somewhat of a difference. Not to mention their ages.

    Now having said all that, both jokes are out of bounds.

    Remember the trouble SNL got into for making fun of Chelsea Clinton's looks?

    Apology (none / 0) (#12)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:35:27 PM EST

    If an apology got Imus off the hook, it should for Letterman as well.

    And, since the opposite is true... (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:28:54 PM EST
    I take it you are in favor of Letterman being fired in shame just as Imus was.


    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#74)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 09:44:36 AM EST

    I could care less.  

    Parent
    Just watched The Reader (none / 0) (#13)
    by Lil on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:39:52 PM EST
    I can see why Winslet won the award. Except for it being a little too long, It is the kind of movie that stays and plays in your mind. I expect to think a lot about it for the next few days.

    If You have to explain the joke... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Lil on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:51:04 PM EST


    pretty good apology (none / 0) (#15)
    by Lil on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 10:52:11 PM EST
    Toxoplasmosis in cats? (none / 0) (#20)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:09:51 PM EST
    Anybody have any experience with this?

    One of my cats became desperately ill over the last couple of days and is now in the hospital with a very tentative diagnosis of toxoplasmosis until the test results come in sometime tomorrow.

    She was increasingly uncomfortable and out of sorts for a couple of days, then this morning was unable to walk and in very great distress.  She hasn't deteriorated further today so far in the hospital, has eaten well and is showing a bit of spunk, but can't stand on her legs and is still one very sick kitty. She doesn't have the full range of classic symptoms, which usually include loss of appetite, but TP is still the best fit of the things my vet can come up with for what's wrong.

    She says if it is TP, it's definitely treatable, but that she may not completely recover from the neurologic problems.

    If anybody's gone through this with an animal, I'd sure like to hear about the experience and the outcome.

    Sending good thoughts and best wishes (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by vml68 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 10:22:01 AM EST
    for your kitty. Let us know how she is faring.

    Parent
    Did she test? (none / 0) (#23)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:35:19 PM EST
    Or just going off symptoms/history? I went over to Cornell to read up on it.  

    Most cats that have toxoplasmosis can recover with treatment. Treatment usually involves a course of an antibiotic called Clindamycin. Other drugs that are used include pyrimethamine and sulfadiazine, which act together to inhibit T. gondii reproduction. Treatment must be started as soon as possible after diagnosis and continued for several days after signs have disappeared. In acute illness, treatment is sometimes started on the basis of a high antibody titer in the first test. If clinical improvement is not seen within two to three days, the diagnosis of toxoplasmosis should be questioned.

    Last part jumped out at me. What are you feeding her? There's some food issues out there (so what else is new?!) with Nature's Variety, Nutro and Evangers. There may be others, but those are the most recent I know of.

    Sending best wishes for a speedy and full recovery!

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#32)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:18:08 AM EST
    I'm feeding all three cats pretty much the best canned food money can buy, Welness grain-free chicken alternating daily with Innova Evo canned, so I don't see how it can be a food issue.  The other two cats are robustly healthy.  The vet is very much impressed by her general overall condition, so there's pretty clearly no long-term debilitating issue here like bad or contaminated food.

    They started her on the antibiotics for TP right away when I brought her in this AM since it seemed a reasonable possibility, and there's essentially no treatment for other possibilities (ie, poisoning of some sort from getting into chemicals left behind in obscure corners by the previous owners of the house, or feline infectious peritonitis, which comes from a mutation in a virus most cats carry without a problem).

    The problem is that she doesn't show the usual collection of symptoms for anything, which is fairly typical of cats and makes diagnosis really difficult.

    There's also a faint, God forbid, possibility of rabies since it's around here in wild animals and the immunization isn't 100 percent effective. But for a whole variety of reasons, that seems almost vanishingly unlikely with her.

    Vet said if it is TP, they can send her home right away tomorrow if I can keep her secluded for a while, which I can, while she continues the antibiotics and recovers however far she may recover.

    I'm violently, passionately opposed to letting animals suffer because we humans can't bear to part with them, so if she does have TP and doesn't  fully recover from the neurological damage, I'll have to think very carefully about her quality of life.

    If it's not TP, God help us.  She'll pretty much have to recover herself or not, and I refuse to let that go on for terribly long.

    Parent

    Nothing worse than a sick pet (none / 0) (#36)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:59:53 AM EST
    it's one of the few times I actually pray that they can talk, at least for one day so I can get some info.

    It's kinda good to have multiple cats these days, helps to rule out food. Sucks if it is the food though. I used to feed NV and Evangers along with a couple other grain free, mostly meat diets before I went raw 6yrs ago, and still fed them when I forgot to order meat in time, had 4-5 mo kitten that needed dry food out all night so I didn't have to deal with 3AM wake ups (lol!~) etc. It's a shame food processing got so messed up. With NV, it's an ingredient issue (that's all they'll say last I checked) and Evangers, a processing one which could result in Botulism (which they deny on the pet boards, but tell that to the vets and owners). In AU, there was an issue with another high end brand. Turns out they were irradiating the food on import. My lord, what the cats went through (neurological, paralysis, etc,  videos were very sad) I wouldn't wish on any cat and owner. So that's why I ask about food :(

    I'm with you on quality of life. I have seen "special needs" cats from illnesses, and while they aren't quite "normal", they are perfectly happy and not in pain etc and get along/around in their own special way. Their "special need" is just a loving home that understands them. Others, I question. My dog was a question mark because of her post abuse trauma. We weren't sure we could bring her back emotionally. It's always a huge soul search.

    After 24 hrs, you should have a better idea, tomorrow (this AM), I would think. I'm hoping she's on the road to recovery and sparing you any more worry. Kitties can be pretty darn resilient. Again, wishing you and your kitty nothing but the best :)

    Parent

    Emotional trauma (none / 0) (#55)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:15:26 AM EST
    is a whole different thing to try to deal with.  An animal with some kind of physical problem but well bonded to a caring person is one thing, but an animal that's been traumatized emotionally is so much harder to keep happy.

    This particular cat who's sick (really just half-grown, maybe 10 months old) I adopted from a shelter when she was about 5 months, and although she's been mostly well-adapted to the household, even she remains emotionally/psychologically opaque to me in a way the other two, closely hand-raised by me from 7 and 8 weeks, simply aren't.

    I figure it's my number one responsibility to do everything I can to see that any animals under my control, either the cats or the chickens I'm going to be getting, enjoy their lives to the fullest extent possible.  There's no other excuse for having them.

    My late mother had a rule of thumb for when it was time to put down an animal, which was simply whether it was having fun anymore.  That's not always an easy thing to draw a bright line on, but it's the best I can think of.  I'm horrified and disgusted by the lengths some people will go to keep a suffering animal alive.  We can't do the same service for our human loved ones, but we sure can take beloved animals out of their misery.

    Re food-- I can't even contemplate the horror of knowing you'd fed your animals every day something that killed them or made them terribly sick, like with the whole melamine thing a while ago.  I'm reasonably confident of the two brands I use, but you never know.  I'd do the raw food thing myself, but I know it's just beyond me to manage at this point in my life.

    Thank you so much for your support and sympathy.  It's really helpful to be able to share this kind of thing with people who know how you feel.

    Parent

    I am truly sorry to hear about your (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by vml68 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 10:19:54 PM EST
    little kitty. From everything you have said about your animals, it sounds like she was lucky to have found such a good home even if she only got to spend five months with you.
    Even though your decision to put her to sleep was the right one, it is still a heartbreaking one. I hope you are OK and I will keep my fingers crossed for your other cats.

    Parent
    Oh, thank you! (none / 0) (#118)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 01:21:33 AM EST
    I'm OK.  This is actually the fourth cat I've lost to one thing or another in the last five years, the second in six months, so I've got too much experience in coping with it.  Except for the last couple of days, little Mollie had a really good time in life for the short time she had.  She absolutely had fun.

    I brought her home and I'm going to bury her tomorrow morning next to the cat I lost last November.  My sister and I have already planted some joyfully colorful flowers there for his exuberant little self, and I'll put some others there for her.

    Thanks very much for the good thoughts for my other two.  If I was a believer, I'd say it was in God's hands.  All I can do is wait and watch and hope.

    Parent

    I love the fact that you can (none / 0) (#119)
    by vml68 on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 08:18:14 AM EST
    bury your pets on your property and you get to plant flowers there. I wish I had that option.
    Someday your cats will be a part of the flowers blooming there.....bringing joy in a different way.

    Parent
    Burying a loved one (none / 0) (#122)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 09:10:37 AM EST
    It's extremely painful and stressful to handle the body and experience its changes from so warm and life-like to cold and stiff, and laying it in a hole and shoveling dirt over it is very, very hard.

    But after doing this for my other cat last fall, it just felt so much more right than it does to back away from the physical fact of death and let some institution take the body away and deal with it.

    I think we've lost something important in modern society by doing it that way. Before modern medicine, when people mostly died at home, family would carry out a whole ritual of bathing and dressing the body and putting it in the ground themselves.  It's the final service to a loved one, and confronting the death so closely and intimately I think is far better emotionally for the survivors, hard as it is.

    The physical body to me has no big significance, it's just where a creature, human or animal, I loved very much used to live.  But I've also been surprised to find with little Johnny that having a burial place for his body has been a good thing because it gives me a focal point for remembering and smiling and grieving and honoring what he brought to my life while he was here.

    Not that I don't wander around the house weeping sometimes anyway, but there does seem to be for me a better ability to come to terms with the finality.  (I'm trying desperately to avoid using the word "closure," but I guess that's really what I'm talking about.)

    And also, it's something you can't put off, so it helps to keep you from putting off really grappling with the loss emotionally.

    Parent

    FIP (none / 0) (#105)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 06:18:08 PM EST
    She didn't have toxoplamosis, she had raging feline infectious peritonitis-- untreatable and invariably fatal.  So I went up to the hospital right away and held her while she was put to sleep.  It felt very right because it was the only way to put a stop to her misery, and she went extremely peacefully and comfortably, cuddled and petted and told how beautiful she was.

    Parent
    I'm so sorry... (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 06:38:22 PM EST
    it's wrenching to think about the misery something like that inflicts on a pet; she was lucky to have someone who was able to help let her go in the most humane way possible.  For all the delight and comfort and pleasure our animals give us, asking nothing more than food, shelter, care and attention, we really owe it to them to do the right thing when all they face is pain.

    Hugs to you.

    Parent

    Thank you so much for (none / 0) (#115)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 09:34:20 PM EST
    the good thoughts.  I'm with you on this, I'm passionately opposed to letting animals suffer one second longer than necessary.  I only wish we'd figured out what might be going on with her a few days earlier so we could have spared her any of this by ending it before it took her down so far-- semiparalyzed and scared to death and deteriorating.

    I was frankly appalled when my wonderful vet asked tentatively if I was intending to take her home for a few days before bringing her back for euthanasia.  She doesn't think it's right for the animals, but apparently lots of people insist on doing that.  Shame on them, I say.

    She was a sweet cat, a world-class cuddler and purr baby, only 10 months old, and racing around the yard happily only a few days ago.  She had fun in her short life.

    Parent

    Oh, gyrfalcon, I'm so sorry to hear it (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by Inspector Gadget on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 06:40:16 PM EST
    take care of yourself tonight...and know there are really sincere supportive thoughts coming your way.


    Parent
    Thanks, IG (none / 0) (#116)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 09:36:35 PM EST
    It actually does help.  Now I'm just scared to death my other two cats will come down with it, but I guess this is a case of what will be will be and all we can do is wait for it.

    I've lost four cats to four different tragedies in the last five years, the most recent one six months ago, so I'm almost getting used to it now.

    Parent

    Please let us know (none / 0) (#49)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 03:03:50 AM EST
    how this turns out.

    The diagnosis is everything.

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#57)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:20:53 AM EST
    I will.  The diagnosis is everything, you're so right, and cats particularly make that so darn difficult.  They're such darn stoics, for one thing, that you don't see there's anything wrong at all until it's gotten pretty bad. And they refuse to do the same things exactly like other cats, so the symptoms are never the same from one to another.

    I really appreciate the support and concern.

    Parent

    FIP (none / 0) (#106)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 06:19:33 PM EST
    feline infectious peritonitis, untreatable and always fatal.  We put her to sleep this afternoon.  

    Parent
    I am so terribly sorry (none / 0) (#128)
    by cal1942 on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 01:08:58 PM EST
    I know what it's like.  On June 10th last year we lost our little princess a female Chinchilla Silver Persian.

    My wife and I have had dogs and cats all our lives.  They were all wonderful but none of them captured our hearts the way our little girl did.

    For some time we were immobilized with grief.

    I know you'll grieve as well.  I hope you have pictures and other memorabilia, as time passes they'll help.

    Parent

    I need glasses! Now I see re:test! (none / 0) (#25)
    by nycstray on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:36:17 PM EST
    Meanwhile (none / 0) (#27)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 11:45:24 PM EST
    Ditto (none / 0) (#35)
    by nycstray on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:31:11 AM EST
    Thanks for the link.

    Parent
    Good, bad or indifferent... (none / 0) (#30)
    by cwolf on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:02:39 AM EST
    ...when I heard the "Knocked Up" joke I knew instantly that it was about Palin's "Knocked up" daughter, Bristol.

    So not everybody was able to misunderstand the joke,,, until it was "explained" by that splattermouth Gov. Palin.

    Yah, what a splattermouth! (5.00 / 7) (#33)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 12:20:13 AM EST
    Just imagine the total inappropriateness of a mother objecting to sex jokes being made about her daughter -- any daughter, whatever age -- on national TV.

    That's some splattermouth, all right.  Soooo glad you put her in her place for being so presumptuous.

    Parent

    In that case, what would have been (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Anne on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 08:02:09 PM EST
    fair would be to attack Bristol for her views on abstinence, not make a sick joke about her spreading her legs for A-Rod.  You think Letterman's "joke" was meant as a statement about her views on abstinence?  How can that be - so many people thought it was meant to be about A-Rod.

    I don't have to agree with anyone that abstinence works better than birth control for teens with raging hormones, but I don't have to crack on Bristol Palin as if she is now a whore because she had a baby - she had sex! - when she was 17.

    Parent

    And, yet, you have a teenage daughter (none / 0) (#121)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Jun 17, 2009 at 08:47:46 AM EST
    yourself, don't you? Does she realize she can't step outside your boundaries of decency without setting herself up for public ridicule?

    Parent
    thanks, I got him (none / 0) (#50)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jun 16, 2009 at 03:33:49 AM EST
    There are 10 TO 15 spammers a day who register to post here. I check the new users almost every day to weed them out but some get comments in before I do, so I appreciate readers pointing them out.

    Many are from India, Malaysia, Australia and England. Somehow TL must have gotten on a list. It's an extra hour or so of work every day to delete their accounts and their info, and check the IP addresses to find duplicates, but better that than they clog up the site.