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Obama Considering Preventive Detention for Terrorists

President Obama told human rights activists today he's considering preventive detention for suspected terrorists for whom there is insufficient evidence to charge with a crime.

Translation: Just like Bush. Lock 'em up indefinitely without bringing criminal charges. A disturbing but emerging pattern: Every time Obama takes a step forward, he moves two steps back.

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    I'm just wondering.... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by EL seattle on Wed May 20, 2009 at 10:46:16 PM EST
    ... how many news stories these days could wrap up with a cut-and-paste addition of the following two paragraphs:

    But Mr. Obama will not use the speech to provide the details lawmakers want.

    "What it's not going to be is a prescriptive speech," said David Axelrod, Mr. Obama's senior adviser. "The president wants to take some time and put this whole issue in perspective to identify what the challenges are and how he will approach dealing with them."


    It was the end of the world (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed May 20, 2009 at 10:52:27 PM EST
    when Bush did it.  Now it's just a centrist policy....

    The more things "change" the more they stay the same.

    It's okay. Obama's a con. law prof. (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Mitch Guthman on Wed May 20, 2009 at 10:58:42 PM EST
    I wonder how Laurence Tribe is feeling tonight.   The money quote from Tribe's campaign speech in support of Obama:  " `The next president won't be in a position to make this a liberal court, but he can prevent it from becoming reactionary and moving to unreviewable executive power,' Tribe said, adding that Obama shares his views on Constitutional law." TPM: Tribe campaigns for Obama

    I've often wondered that also. (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by oculus on Wed May 20, 2009 at 11:01:44 PM EST
    Will somebody please send me into (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Radiowalla on Wed May 20, 2009 at 11:11:05 PM EST
    preventive detention?

    I'm about ready to set my hair on fire.

    That's okay (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Zorba on Thu May 21, 2009 at 07:46:02 AM EST
    Once your head explodes, as mine just did, you won't have any hair left to set on fire.

    Parent
    Is the operative phrase here (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Spamlet on Wed May 20, 2009 at 11:13:40 PM EST
    "he's considering"? Trial balloon? Disgraceful even if it is, of course.

    I'd say trial balloon, which GOP will (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by oculus on Wed May 20, 2009 at 11:20:52 PM EST
    laud and Dems won't be far behind.

    Parent
    Wait for it (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Spamlet on Wed May 20, 2009 at 11:34:14 PM EST
    A little trial balloon (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by ruffian on Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:01:52 AM EST
    should be his symbol in Doonesbury. I have not read it for awhile - I wonder what Trudeau did come up with?

    Parent
    Preventive detention?! (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by nycstray on Thu May 21, 2009 at 12:22:54 AM EST
    They do something similar with animals in some shelters. Preventive euthing. If it's a pit bull (and a few other breeds) it must be bad .  . .  . death and a trash heap.

    Nice comparison... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by kdog on Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:47:04 AM EST
    brown breeds, better lock 'em up indefinitely...just in case.

    Since we are shreddding the constitution and all...can we preventively detain the pres, the cabinet, senate, and house before they destroy what little redeeming qualities we have left?

    Parent

    I'll never join you... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Thu May 21, 2009 at 12:24:46 PM EST
    Darth Vader!...:)

    Parent
    You're absolutely right... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Thu May 21, 2009 at 12:35:54 PM EST
    about the monetary support...no escape from that outside chains and cages I'm afraid...you do the best you can and dodge every tax you can:)

    Parent
    One wrongful imprisonment.... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Thu May 21, 2009 at 12:49:33 PM EST
    is too many narius, I can't just shrug off humans in cages like I can other things...just because the terrorists who run our country say the men in the cages are terrorists doesn't magically make it so.

    It is customary for the state to provide some proof.

    Parent

    Hope And Change, Baby (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by dualdiagnosis on Thu May 21, 2009 at 03:32:46 AM EST
    Smile And Wave, Just Smile And Wave.

    The guy is amazing (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Dadler on Thu May 21, 2009 at 04:31:36 AM EST
    Coward, panderer, pathological equivocator.  I get the distinct feeling Obama has never really had to fight for anything.  Not once.  That all of his talk and backsliding is nothing but an attempt to keep the bullies from pummeling him, same as he did, I suspect, when he was younger.

    Hey, we're getting a MAJOR SPEECH (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Anne on Thu May 21, 2009 at 06:59:57 AM EST
    today on National Security...that should make it all better, don't ya think?

    From EJ Dionne today:

    Characteristically, Obama will try to cut through all this with a speech today explaining his decisions, including plans to close the Guantanamo Bay prison, and proposing, again, that the country move on.

    If anyone can work magic with a speech, it's Obama. And he's making his case to a public that already wants to focus on the current domestic crisis and not on leftover issues from a Bush administration many would prefer to forget.

    But the fact that Obama is giving the speech reflects the administration's realization that its initial efforts to put these issues to bed have fallen short. Why?

    Led by Dick Cheney, many Republicans believe that national security is still the Democrats' greatest vulnerability, and they will try to keep this front open even if it means defending torture. Obama is right to pause before releasing those abuse photographs, and there may be no alternative but to use military commissions in some of the terrorism cases. But in making these decisions, the president has looked more reactive than principled.

    [snip]

    (Axelrod says,) "What we're trying to do is urge everyone to move forward."

    An excellent idea, but even Obama can't simply wish the past away. He needs to be more forthcoming about why he has changed his mind on some issues.

    The administration regularly talks about protecting American values and American security. Even a verbal magician such as Obama can't get around the fact that doing both involves hard trade-offs. To get back to the economy, health care, energy and education, Obama has to answer his civil libertarian critics and Dick Cheney at the same time.

    It may be Bush and Cheney's fault, but on national security issues, the words "trust me" don't work anymore.

    It will be interesting to see where this speech takes the debate; I am not hopeful about what we will hear.


    He has a better chance of (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by ruffian on Thu May 21, 2009 at 07:54:21 AM EST
    convincing me that these are the right policies than Dick Cneney ever had. But that just moves the odds from none to slim.

    And what does Dionne not understand here:

    But the fact that Obama is giving the speech reflects the administration's realization that its initial efforts to put these issues to bed have fallen short. Why?

    Well, you can't put the issue to bed when it is an ongoing issue, for pete's sake! We've got 250 prisoners at Gitmo that have to be resolved somehow. You can't just 'put that to bed' without resolution. good god.

    Parent

    I guess this is where you and I disagree: (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Anne on Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:43:10 AM EST
    if the policies are wrong, it doesn't matter to me who utters them, and a better sales job doesn't make the policies palatable/acceptable.

    But I think that's what Obama is counting on - he's very used to using speeches to make things go away; the question for me is, will people let that happen?

    Parent

    Maybe we don't really disagree (none / 0) (#51)
    by ruffian on Thu May 21, 2009 at 03:40:52 PM EST
    I don't mean I would be convinced by a sales job from him any more than Cheney, only that I will give him the benefit of the doubt of starting at an honest intention, whereas I assume no such thing with Cheney. chance is still very slim I would buy any argument for unlkimited preventive detention.

    Still waiting for a reasoned argument for a policy from Obama though. I sure did not get that today - only all the reasons it is hard.

    Parent

    Pay less attention to what he says, (none / 0) (#55)
    by Anne on Thu May 21, 2009 at 06:01:07 PM EST
    and more to what he does - that's where the disconnect is; it bothers me that people are still so easily seduced by his rhetoric that they are missing how much it differs from his actions.

    Parent
    I know, I'm such a worrier (none / 0) (#50)
    by ruffian on Thu May 21, 2009 at 03:36:00 PM EST
    Just can't leave the loose ends out there and enjoy a good flick.

    Parent
    No news here (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Cream City on Thu May 21, 2009 at 09:23:17 AM EST
    but just the same thing that some of us were capable of seeing in the campaign -- and that some of us were capable of being concerned about, while others just wanted to win.

    Well, winning at any cost has its costs.  

    next up: (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jen M on Thu May 21, 2009 at 06:41:08 AM EST
    redefining terrorist to include gang members, drug dealers, pedophiles...

    Yup (none / 0) (#18)
    by ruffian on Thu May 21, 2009 at 07:48:50 AM EST
    How about drivers and people that neglect children? Any number of types of people cause more death in this country than terrorists do.

    Parent
    I am so (none / 0) (#16)
    by kmblue on Thu May 21, 2009 at 07:31:49 AM EST
    disappointed in this man.  And I voted for him reluctantly.  He's exceeding all my negative expectations.

    Well (none / 0) (#47)
    by kmblue on Thu May 21, 2009 at 01:20:40 PM EST
    it was Obama or McCain in my view.
    I just hoped Obama would be better than I thought he was.  Wrong!

    Parent
    I'm not defending (none / 0) (#20)
    by Bemused on Thu May 21, 2009 at 07:59:04 AM EST
     "preventive detention" but it is a "change" that Obama meets with human rights advocates and informs of measures he is considering and discusses their concerns about them.

      It may just be "talk" but there is someting to be said for the open exchange of ideas in formulating policy and there is more of that now.

    What would that be? (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:31:05 AM EST
    It may just be "talk" but there is someting to be said for the open exchange of ideas in formulating policy and there is more of that now.

    The benefits of open exchange is that at some point the ideas of others actually cause the decision maker to rethink and change his/her position. Can you name a time when Obama has done that?

    If it is just "talk" what is there to be said about that you can call positive?


    Parent

    Bingo (none / 0) (#24)
    by jbindc on Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:37:00 AM EST
    Something tells me that this, like so many other things of Obama, is just window dressing.

    Parent
    I don't think (none / 0) (#26)
    by Bemused on Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:45:34 AM EST
      dialogue is important only if it results in a changed position. Obviously, I would prefer it if one not only listened to my views but also at least in part adopted them, but the process of reaching decisions is important and it's better to have open communications.

    Parent
    Actually, I would be happy if those who (none / 0) (#53)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu May 21, 2009 at 03:55:20 PM EST
    held opposing views would just respect my reasoning for not agreeing with them enough to consider the chance they were not making a good decision by not at least compromising.

    I don't think you read my comment well enough to answer it. I said I knew of no time that Obama actually adjusted or changed his position after one of his meetings with those of opposing ideas to his.

    Obama needs to be dependent upon others with how little experience he has in matters of national policy and positions of leadership. He would gain so much more support if he could just once not run for a teleprompter every time he learned the country was criticizing his choices, and instead take the time to meet with a broad range of true experts on the subject before declaring "I won".


    Parent

    Is that really true? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Bemused on Thu May 28, 2009 at 09:05:44 AM EST
     or would it be more accurate to suggest that so far Obama has only changed positions in directions you disapprove after meeting with people whose ideas were opposed to his original position?

    Parent
    I am all for an open exchange of ideas, (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Anne on Thu May 21, 2009 at 09:03:55 AM EST
    but it isn't just important to have ideas, but to have convictions upon which those ideas are based - without that, it's just intellect engaging in exercise.

    Having core beliefs does not, for many people, close off the discussion of issues related to those core beliefs; speaking for myself, discussing my ideas and thoughts with those who may not share my opinions is not about me looking for something better or for a reason to change my mind.  Sometimes it's about thinking I have something to offer others to think about, and sometimes it's about seeing how well I can express what I think and whether it makes sense even to me.  And I want to know what other people think, too - I want to understand why and how people come to the opinions they have.

    Open discussion gives me things to think about, for sure, and I like to think that what I think evolves and expands - but it does so around a center, a core - and I often have the feeling that that is something Obama lacks.


    Parent

    I share (none / 0) (#30)
    by Bemused on Thu May 21, 2009 at 09:32:07 AM EST
      the suspicion  about Obama lacking much in the way of deeply rooted political  beliefs. I'm not, however, as inclined to view that as much of a negative as are most people here --or their mirror images on the right.

     I really don't see where either the lefties who complain about Obama betraying them have any better of a case than the righties who compain he is a socialist and out to undermine national security.

      Persoanlly, I'd be a lot more worried about someone who did no reevaluate his stances upon becoming President and not only assuming responsibility but learning information that he did not have when describing his positions in more general terms during a campaign.

      I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more scared by a person whose core beliefs are so deeply rooted as to foreclose adaptation than I am by a person who reconsiders his positions despite offending some of his supporters.

    Of course (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by jbindc on Thu May 21, 2009 at 09:38:06 AM EST
    But you are assuming here that garnering others' opinions and "listening to a broad range of ideas" is not just for show.  He can have all the meetings he wants, with lots of press attention, and make grand speeches, but at the end of the day, what will result is what will help Obama - not the people.

    AS BTD says, pols are pols.  It stopped being about us a long time ago.

    Parent

    You are focused on process (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by Steve M on Thu May 21, 2009 at 09:47:36 AM EST
    while the complainers are focused on substance.

    The issue is not that "Obama changed his position" and that is a bad thing, full stop.  The issue is that, in the eyes of people here, he had a good position previously and now he has a bad one.  Pointing out that at least he's open-minded is a purely process-based observation.

    For my part, I want someone who will stick to their good positions and reevaluate their bad positions.  I don't find that so unusual.

    Parent

    It's not unusual. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Bemused on Thu May 21, 2009 at 11:25:01 AM EST
      In fact it's distressingly prevalent because most people here like most other people always start from the conclusion that the "good" positions are their positions and the "bad" positions anything else.

      I prefer someone who is open minded enough to believe that his positions are not necessarily "good" let alone the only good ones.

      This narrow-minded nature of most people's approach to politics is one of the worst problems we face, in my opinion.

      Would I on any particular issue probably prefer a "bad" process leading to the position I prefer (which is equivalent to your "good") over a "good" process leading to a position with which i disagree (your "bad")? Yeah, the majooity of the time that might be true on an issue by issue basis. I believe, however, that broadly over time and a panoply of issues a "good" process is more likely to lead to mre good outcomes than a bad process.

      As for the prior post asking whether i'm convinced it's not just for show, the answer is no, i'm not but I'm also not convinced it is just for show. I remain an Obama agnostic at this point.

    Parent

    I agree with Obama on preventative detention (none / 0) (#34)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu May 21, 2009 at 11:54:21 AM EST
    because we certainly need a new legal framework to prevent terroristic attacks. What good is the current system of punishment after the fact when we're dealing with people who are completely willing to kill themselves in an attempt to kill us? These attacks are a culmination of a lifetime of political/religious brainwashing, and may be a criminal's one and only terrorist act. You can't put an attacker in jail if they're one of the thousands of dead at ground zero. And yes, I know prosecuting people before they commit a crime is currently not part of our legal framework. But it is part of our war philosophies, and even part of our concepts of self defense. If a military combatants intend to shoot you, you can shoot them first. In this case the enemy may not be a military combatant, but the concept should still apply. If someone comes into your home with a weapon, you're justified in shooting them before they shoot you (albeit you may have to show that they intended you harm.) So I don't think it's a stretch to apply that concept to potential terrorists. The problem is, a good legal framework doesn't exist yet, and what the Bush Admin has put in place is indefensible. I expect that Congress will create new law to handle this situation, and when that happens we should ensure that individual protections are in place.

    Where I disagree with Obama is his decision to move forward instead of investigating what happened that allowed our government to torture in our name.  Cheney said a very important sentence in his blowhard speech after the Prez spoke.  Cheney said that given the same circumstances, he would make the same decisions again. That is exactly why we need to prevent future administrators from doing what Bush and Cheney did. The laws that mandate Congressional notification of covert or potentially illegal actions were created to deal with widespread abuses by our intelligence agencies. The House and Senate intelligence committees are entrusted with the faith of the American people to oversee aggressive intelligence operations done in our name, and to ensure that they are necessary, effective and consistent with American laws and values. If Cheney et. al. were able to get the individual CIA staff who briefed the House Select Committee on Intelligence to report that torture was deemed legal but wasn't in use yet, to in effect, lie to Pelosi et. al., then they've easily bypassed the checks and balances meant to prevent illegal government actions.

    Using torture is the biggest military policy reversal in our lifetimes, a change that not only endangers our military and taints our great country but is also clearly against signed treaties and international law, and today no one can say for sure if it actually was properly reported to Congress' Intelligence Committees, the final watchdogs on the CIA and military.

    To "move forward," we need to fix the process so it can't be subverted again. For that very reason, we need a Truth Commission to figure out exactly where the congressional reporting system broke down.


    Exactly what legal framework (none / 0) (#41)
    by coast on Thu May 21, 2009 at 12:27:33 PM EST
    would support locking people up without proof of guilt?

    "If a military combatants intend to shoot you, you can shoot them first."

    For what its worth, intent of non-uniformed combatants is fairly hard to distinguish when fighting in civilian populated areas, as is called for in Iraq.  As such, the typical MO is to not engage until engaged upon.

    Parent

    We need to create a new legal framework (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by MyLeftMind on Thu May 21, 2009 at 05:37:16 PM EST
    because terrorists aren't necessarily criminals we can catch and prosecute for a crime, nor are they uniformed enemy combatants.  They can train and plan their whole lives for that one big shot at killing Americans (or Europeans, or whoever their distorted religion teaches is the enemy). In order to stop them, we need to establish legal mechanisms that are similar to current laws, but that allow detainment/imprisonment of potential terrorists.  In short, we can't use current legal structures because they aren't recognizable as soldiers and we can't wait until after they attack us.

    BTW, we certainly do engage the enemy before they attack us. In fact, we even bomb houses (and innocent people) when intelligence indicates a meeting is taking place on that property.  

    Parent

    Can there be POW's in the (none / 0) (#52)
    by Inspector Gadget on Thu May 21, 2009 at 03:42:34 PM EST
    "War" on terror?

    Parent
    Why not? (none / 0) (#58)
    by DancingOpossum on Fri May 22, 2009 at 09:41:31 AM EST
    terrorists aren't necessarily criminals we can catch and prosecute for a crime

    Why not? What was that "TERRARIST PLOT IN NYC" all about but a criminal matter? What was the Oklahoma City bombing but a criminal matter that was handled through our criminal justice system?

    Oh but you meant terrorists with a "distorted religion" that "teaches" them we are the enemy? Actually it's our own extremely distorted policies in the Middle East (and for that matter the rest of the damn world) that certainly teach large numbers of people that we are far, far from being their friends.


    Anyway what it really comes down to (none / 0) (#59)
    by DancingOpossum on Fri May 22, 2009 at 09:43:04 AM EST
    is, would you agree with preventive detention if Bush were doing it?