Torture Hearings: FBI Agent Testifies

An FBI Agent who interrogated Abu Zubaydah before the CIA took over testified at a congressional hearing today. He said torture doesn't work. He said he got useful information from Zubaydah before the CIA took over and began using abusive techniques.

Soufan said his team had to step aside when CIA contractors took over, using simulated drowning, sleep deprivation and other harsh methods. He said those techniques caused the prisoner to "shut down."

Sen. Lindsay Graham called the hearings a "political stunt."

Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., asked whether "we would have this hearing if we were attacked this afternoon."

Sounds like something Jack Bauer would say.

< Obama Changes Mind, Won't Release Prisoner Abuse Photos | Judge Charged With Allowing Perjury Argues For Immunity From Prosecution >
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    Jesse Ventura on Waterboarding (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by ruffian on Wed May 13, 2009 at 02:43:26 PM EST
    As a Navy Seal, he took the training. From Larry King show, quoted by Greenwald:

    VENTURA:  It's drowning. It gives you the complete sensation that you are drowning. It is no good, because you -- I'll put it to you this way, you give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.

    Ventura is all for prosecuting torturers.

    When has Ventura been listened (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Wed May 13, 2009 at 02:50:20 PM EST
    to which such respect by the "hard left"?

    I listen to anyone (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by ruffian on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:16:42 PM EST
    sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. I just thought Ventrua's was the best 2 line rebuttal of the efficacy of torture I have seen.

    Read Greenwalds whole post (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by ruffian on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:28:38 PM EST
    On Ventura at Salon- sorry I am not in a position to grab the link at the moment . His main point is that the illegality of torture is something that is agreed upon from all points on the political spectrum, but the media keeps assigning that position to the 'hard left'.

    I did read Greenwald's entire piece, with (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by oculus on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:32:52 PM EST
    which I agree.  Just teasing you re Ventura.

    Sorry! (none / 0) (#69)
    by ruffian on Wed May 13, 2009 at 10:49:41 PM EST
    I was too busy this afternoon to figure that out!

    My dang job getting in the way of my blog commenting ...


    The hard left loves ANYONE with thier views (none / 0) (#11)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:11:43 PM EST
    Even Ventura.....lol

    And what is your point? (none / 0) (#70)
    by cymro on Wed May 13, 2009 at 11:59:08 PM EST
    Logically, people who hold a certain opinion about a subject agree with other people hold the same opinion about that subject, regardless of whether they agree or disagree about other subjects, and regardless of any labels applied to particular people or to particular beliefs by others.

    This is in fact a truism that follows from the definitions of the words "opinion" and "agree". So your point is what, exactly?


    water boading is not torture (none / 0) (#7)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 02:58:58 PM EST
    It scares the bad guys....big deal. It does not hurt them, they can walk away completely healthy once it's over. It works, even Obama admitted that. Who's side are you on? I bet you want to give them rights too? I say after they are done they should be lined up and shot.

    The creator gave them rights... (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by kdog on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:19:23 PM EST
    inalienable ones...unless Thomas Jefferson is on your terrorist watchlist now....I thought our once great nation was founded on this?

    no rights (none / 0) (#33)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:52:18 PM EST
    they forfeited their rights when they attacked unarmed civilians (3000 of them), who's side are you on?

    The side of Liberty... (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by kdog on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:01:43 PM EST
    and sovereign individuals and due process...how 'bout you?

    Not for nothing...the guys who killed 3000 people died with them.

    I think we're done friend...I get the feeling "in captivity = guilty" in your eyes...I like evidence and due process and err'ing on the side of justice and righteousness...so whats the point?  You're beliefs are running the show...your ideas win.  Congrats and enjoy the fruits.


    Humanity! (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:09:20 PM EST
    Get Help Now (none / 0) (#17)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:17:45 PM EST
    Why the sudden invasion of TL (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by oculus on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:08:26 PM EST
    by apologists for torture?

    Invasion of one? Perhaps? (none / 0) (#12)
    by nycstray on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:14:39 PM EST
    CFB looks pretty trollish right down to the handle . . .  just sayin'  ;)

    I Think (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:26:32 PM EST
    we can add Iamme to the list as well.

    trollish? (none / 0) (#16)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:17:34 PM EST
    u r just saying......

    Um, school's out for the day? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Anne on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:34:05 PM EST
    Seems about at that maturity level to me.

    Complete with snickering.


    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by CST on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:48:17 PM EST
    I don't think that's being very fair to school children.

    mature (none / 0) (#42)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:02:18 PM EST
    That sure does not describe the left....notice they were they only ones that disrupt speeches? Disrespectful and narcissistic to say the least.  

    I protect my freedom.... (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by kdog on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:34:43 PM EST
    not the CIA...you only have the rights you can defend my friend.

    They might be protecting my life in some regard...but I'd rather roll the dice on that with a clean conscience.

    Then again...their criminal, torturing, foreign govt. overthrowing, covert operating arses might be putting us in more danger and helped bring about 9/11....yeah, thats the ticket.  They don't call it blowback for nothing.

    9/11 (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:49:55 PM EST
    Clinton brought about 9/11......he had more than one chance to Kill Osama. But, I guess he wanted a "clean conscience" instead. Talk, talk, talk never any action until we are attacked. Lets wait and see what's coming in regards to another attack on the USA when Obama is in power. I bet when it happens Obama does nothing and may even tell us we deserved it...that would suit you and the other sicko's on this site. Were you happy when 9/11 took place, sounds like you think we had it coming?

    In the battle of the bulge in WWII, German soldiers wore US Army uniforms and went around behind our lines killing. Once catch they were lined up against a wall and shot. Do you agree with that?    


    That's Good (none / 0) (#52)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:25:28 PM EST
    Don't let a little thing called "FACTS" get in the way of your arguement.

    No they weren't (none / 0) (#68)
    by MKS on Wed May 13, 2009 at 07:14:47 PM EST
    You are repeating Bill O'Reilly's slander of U.S. troops by falsely asserting they were the prepetrators of the Malmedy massacre.  (It tells us where you get your information--that you repeat O'Reilly's error.)  

    The reality was the other way around:  The Germans shot the Americans who were in their custody. So, you back the Nazi position, here?  


    What? No homework tonight? (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Anne on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:37:38 PM EST
    Goofing off again?

    Tsk, tsk.

    Spelling and grammar could use some extra attention.

    Please stop!! (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by coast on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:31:41 PM EST
    As one of the few openly "right" posters on this sight, CFB and Iamme please stop.

    Torture, simple, straight forward (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by joze46 on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:47:54 PM EST
    Generals of America's army are guilty of

    Torture, simple, straight forward, the American electorate is asking and wants all involved to tell the who, what, where, when, why, are involved in the responsibilities to prisoners of war. The debate is open and the evidence needs to put forward other wise this election towards transparency is a joke beyond any bias that we know of.

    Not releasing these photo's will result in Obama's first great failure to America's biggest set back, more over reveal how shallow Obama is a Commander and Chief. It's going to take courage to punish a whole line up commanders but it needs to be done. Those men who blindly followed Bush as commander and chief are questionable to serve and comply with basic military justice in domestic and international trust.    

    The American army always has a target on them since this war began. Your brains have to be a box of rock to think once your in uniform there is no target on you. The whole general command could likely be complicit to crimes of torture. Too bad, it needs to happen if that is the case.

    For any General to make the claim that releasing horrible prisoner of war photo's will infuriate the world and America is correct, yet at the same time show the world and our country that, "which we did not know" because of a complicit media. Our media for about six years knew this was going on and did not report it. The media must stand trial along with Bush and Company. The integrity of the fundamentals of war time Journalism is at hand too. The media dancing around this...

    Ladies and Gentlemen of America this torture stuff already placed a target on the forhead of ""every"" American in military or ""not"" in the military.

    The understanding that these so called picture's of abuse are in collection to vindicate America is a legal solution not to condemn it as perpetrated by the media. Releasing these photo will condemn the horror of this action and the criminals that preformed it. America will only be redeemed by this action when We the people show the world how we condemn such action to address this properly swiftly and if it has to through International co-operation. Other wise it is my personal opinion forever America will never be trusted in a pre-emptive war that maybe necessary.  

    You have to know a bit about Soufan (1.00 / 1) (#2)
    by star on Wed May 13, 2009 at 02:01:26 PM EST
    Before you can accept the premise of his testimony.
    He was heavily involved with John'O' Neal of FBI in the USS cole investigation. John was a hawk and Soufan was the dove (and interpreter). He got very little information and almost inconsequential cooperation from Yemeni authorites.
    JohnOneil was taken off of the investigation because he was being too HARSH for comfort and he quit FBI and went on to work for a private firm in World trade center and was one of the casualty in 9/11.
    USS cole investigation provided very little actionable intelligence and soufan and team were NOT SUCCESFULL in preventing 9/11 from happening because of the inter agency politics.
    Most of those arrested in connection to cole have been let out or escaped from yemeni prison.
    Please read the book 'Looming Tower - Road to 9/11' by Lawrence Wright. It will show the incompetence of people like Ali Soufan.
    SO I do not have too much faith in Ali Soufan's testimony on anthing.

    Okay--I guess Cheney is the credible one (none / 0) (#3)
    by MKS on Wed May 13, 2009 at 02:13:02 PM EST
    If you say so....

    before you go hanging your hat with this guy (none / 0) (#28)
    by Iamme on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:44:39 PM EST
    "It's puzzling that someone who questioned a single high-value detainee for just a few months claims to be able to talk about the value of a program that lasted nearly seven years after he was part of it," the source said.

    Wether it works or doesnt work is another discussion.  

    But this guy.  Come on.


    maybe you should be (none / 0) (#32)
    by lilburro on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:51:06 PM EST
    a little more specific with your smears.  What are you talking about?  You wrote that Soufan couldn't prevent 9/11 because of interagency politics?  Which has exactly WHAT to do with his experience and work as an interrogator?

    Sorry, I see no reason to view the jumble of "facts" you provide as evidence of Soufan's zip credibility.


    A start (none / 0) (#1)
    by MKS on Wed May 13, 2009 at 12:56:52 PM EST
    Maybe this will lead to more hearings....

    more hearings? for what? (none / 0) (#6)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 02:53:34 PM EST
    Why do we need any hearings? I still don't understand how pouring water over a bad guys head equates to torture? All water boarding does is scare them silly and what's wrong with that? Even Obama had to admit that the process worked and we got intel from these bad guys. Sleep deprivation, playing loud music......whatever, none is torture. If your mom was a few hours away from getting killed I bet you would do more than pour water to get the info you needed to stop it if you had to. It's like you and people like you are on the bad guys side.......I really believe Obama is way over his head and the USA is going to pay for this amateur's misguided policies.    

    Great Job (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:16:03 PM EST
    of parroting all the right wing and Fox news talking points.
    Here's a suggestion, READ. The world community, including the USA, all signed a little thing called the Geneva Accord which obligates it to prosecute acts of Torture. The Red Cross, UN, and the State Department have all stated that Waterbording is Torture, and yet you proudly display your ignorance by using a variation of the well worn and ridiculous "Ticking Bomb" scenario to justify your sadistic mindset.

    the Geneva Accord (none / 0) (#25)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:38:15 PM EST
    only applies to soldiers....these are not soldiers from any country......dummy.....and I could care less what the retarded UN or the rest of the world thinks about what we have to do to protect us. Obama is bowing to world leaders like we are a second rate third world country....he's in way over his head...but what do you expect...he has zero experience and he is embarrassing everyone.  

    Good Comeback (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:43:02 PM EST
    more mindless right wing talking points.

    One More Question (none / 0) (#27)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:44:17 PM EST
    were the victims of the Holocaust soldiers?

    Dont go there (none / 0) (#36)
    by Iamme on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:56:28 PM EST
    Were the people in the towers soldiers?  Seems like being in a burning building on the 87th floor that is about to collapse on top of you would be a torture far greater than anything being done.

    I have noticed in here when we strike a nerve its always "right wing", or name calling.  Can't you handle a differing viewpoint from your own without resorting to that?


    No True "Lefty" (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:02:36 PM EST
    or "Progressive" would be advocating what you are. Time to check the mirror. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

    no (none / 0) (#37)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:56:40 PM EST
    they were unarmed civilians, like those who died on 9/11. Those responsible for the Holocaust were tried and in most cases executed. I'm all for that....thanks, that was a great point.

    key word being (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by CST on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:26:04 PM EST

    In a court of law.  Not tortured in some secret prison.


    Finally (none / 0) (#30)
    by Iamme on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:49:07 PM EST
    Some one in here who agrees.  They are terrorists they get no rights from me.  

    If they want rights and not to be treated badly.  Stop killing people.  Then we wont look for you or detain you or do bad things to you.  The end.

    Rights are for those that are righteous.  Not those that kill innocents.  And for the "god gave him rights crowd"  God also said 1.) Thou shalt not kill.  

    He gets to keep his rights while he violates those same rights vested to some innocent people.  Not on my watch.


    Of course (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by lilburro on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:52:41 PM EST
    it does not occur to you that there are some in Guantanamo and some that have been tortured that are COMPLETELY INNOCENT...I guess that would disrupt your fairytale.

    so do what then (none / 0) (#44)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:08:16 PM EST
    let them all go? What's the answer? War is messy, messy enough that pin heads like you can find fault in any military mission. Innocents die.......why just ours?

    Here's A Novel Thought (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:12:13 PM EST
    how about giving them a "TRIAL" in a court of law to determine if their innocent or guilty?

    Many Innocent Civilians Have Died... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by santarita on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:41:00 PM EST
    in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Pakistan.  If it makes you feel better, the numbers of innocent civilians that have dies in Iraq alone far exceeds the number of innocent civilians that were killed on 9/11.

    they don't count (none / 0) (#61)
    by CST on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:43:16 PM EST
    they're not Amerrrrican.

    Seriously... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:48:30 PM EST
    if were tallying innocent deaths here..we've killed far more innocents than we've lost...in a landslide, not even close.

    Whenever I start to wonder how people let a Hitler or a Stalin come to power, I'll need to read this thread.  People get so scared of the boogey-man they'll trade liberty away for a false sense of security in a heartbeat.  

    What stupid beasts we can be.


    Yeah... (5.00 / 4) (#35)
    by kdog on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:54:14 PM EST
    the thought on an innocent ending up in custody is just too far-fetched to believe...jesus h. christ man.

    If we're gonna torture as policy..it is inevitable that innocents will be tortured...inevitable.

    Maybe your conscience can live with that, not mine.  Sure...I'd be tempted to inflict some serious pain on dudes who behead people and stone women to death...but the problem is unless you witness it with your own eyes you never know if the guy you are waterboarding is who you think he is.  Innocents get swept up all the time...domestically and internationally...by law enforcement and the military and the CIA.


    No fairy tale (none / 0) (#41)
    by Iamme on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:02:00 PM EST
    yes there are innocents.  2 of 98 are innocent for sake of discussion.  Pick your own numbers.  If 10 people or 100 people are saved is this not for the greater good?

    Here is another fairy tale.  We stop and those two dont get swept up.  Neither do the 98 and several large explosions later hundreds are dead.  Not the ticking time bomb theory.  Read any current news source.  Bomb blew up here one blew up there, three went off here.  Reality in your face every day.

    I just cant wrap my head around sacrificing hundreds to protect the rights of 2.


    to quote Ben Franklin (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by CST on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:34:58 PM EST
    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

    "Better to Let Ten Guilty Men Go ... (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by santarita on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:38:20 PM EST
    free than one have one innocent die" is a core Judaeo-Christian belief and is one of the  philosophical underpinning of our constitutional protections against improper government action against individuals.

    Questions for you:

    1.  Were all detainees guilty of terrorism?  Or were some innocents swept up and guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
    2.  Does torture of innocents bother you?
    3.  Does torture produce false testimony sometimes?  What is the percentage?
    4.  Is torture the only way of achieving actionable intelligence in a timely fashion?

    No... (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by kdog on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:38:42 PM EST
    the end does not justify the means in my book...better to let 1 million guilty men go free of torture than to torture one innocent man.  Otherwise you have a way of life that isn't even worth saving.

    And we haven't even gotten into the argument of whether torture is effective..I'm with Jesse Ventura there...lock me in a room with a bound man and I'll get him to confess to whatever you want...it not only stains the soul of a nation, it doesn't even work.


    Well, how about wrapping your head (5.00 / 4) (#64)
    by Anne on Wed May 13, 2009 at 05:22:39 PM EST
    around this: that our entire system of justice is built around the concept that it is better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man be wrongly convicted.

    You are arguing that turning the principles of our system of justice on its head - such that  those we have detained in the name of "the global war on terror" are automatically assumed to be guilty, allowing us to bypass every other element of the process and granting us permission to treat these detainees however we deem appropriate, even if that treatment is in violation of domestic and international law - is fully justified.

    What people like you never seem to consider is that eroding that system with regard to detainees weakens that system right here in the good ol' US of A.  Do you not read any of the posts here that have to do with domestic crime and justice?

    Look around you, for crying out loud: it is yeoman's work trying to keep this system of justice honest in the best of times, but the Bush administration has made serious inroads into the integrity of the system in the last eight years, and they used the attacks of 9/11 for much of their justification.

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but understand that you are arguing with people who consider that opinion to be an affront to what we are supposed to stand for, and are not likely to ever come over to the dark side.


    Reality Check Time (none / 0) (#38)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:57:13 PM EST
    They are terrorists they get no rights from me.
    And they would be different from our country how???
    Oh right, we wear uniforms when we invade countries, capture innocent citizens, torture and kill them so that makes us good and them bad.
    We create a psuedo justification for our acts of Terrorism before we perform them.
    Obviously God wasn't thinking about our military, that rains down death indiscriminately upon thousands when he said, "Thou Shall Not Kill". And surely he wasn't thinking of the CIA or Private Contractors either.

    Clarrification (none / 0) (#39)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:59:20 PM EST
    "They are terrorists they get no rights from me."  
    should have been in quotes.

    right (none / 0) (#46)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:11:39 PM EST
    and what is your solution? Don't ever defend our selves because we may hurt an innocent? This should be good.......

    So Your Acknowledging (none / 0) (#49)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:13:57 PM EST
    and excusing that we are Terrorists?
    BTW, how was Iraq defending ourselves?

    So now we are the terrorists? (none / 0) (#48)
    by Iamme on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:12:37 PM EST
    Ok. I get it.  Lets invoke sharia law here.  Your wife or daughter cannot leave the house with out you.  lets destroy all womens schools.  Threaten the mayors and governors of all cities in the US to quit their job or we will kill you and your whole family.  Yep thats us.  Clearly thats the life I was looking for when I was born.

    Can you not distinguish the good guys from the bad guys anymore?  Freedom is what this country is about.  I dont see those same freedoms or anything remotely related coming from the Taliban or terrorist organizations so maybe your view is different from mine but I am very clear on whose side I am on.

    Pre 9/11 we were not in Iraq nor were we in Afghanistan.  Think about that for a minute and let it sink in.  Had they left us alone.......


    Remarkable! (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:23:02 PM EST
    You really still believe that Iraq attacked us don't you. Well then, that explains your other comments. No use having a discourse with someone who refuses to embrace the facts.
    Run along now, no one else is buying what you're selling.

    I'm surprised you can identify what (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Anne on Wed May 13, 2009 at 05:26:30 PM EST
    side you are on, given how dark it is where your head seems to be located.

    Had we left those regions alone... (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by kdog on Wed May 13, 2009 at 05:47:49 PM EST
    coup d'etat, supporting tyrants, setting up bases...if we only left them alone, who knows what might have been.

    We're at where we're at brother...its never too late to spawn some principles, at least as far as the law and formal policy are concerned.  And if that million to one shot hits and giving some dirtbag the business is absolutely necessary, its not like any jury in the nation is gonna convict the agent or soldier who gave the guy the business.



    perfectly said (none / 0) (#50)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 04:16:47 PM EST
    Distinguishing the good guys from bad guys (none / 0) (#67)
    by MKS on Wed May 13, 2009 at 07:09:56 PM EST
    The good guys don't torture.

    What is it with all the torture apologists coming out of the woodwork now?

    The best medicine is show that innocent people have been tortured or murdered in U.S. cusotdy.  It really helps  the fight--fire-with-fire 24 enthusiasts come back to reality.

    There has been no such thing as a ticking time bomb scenario--except on teevee.  How long did we torture the "high value" targets?  Months....


    Lindsey Graham... (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:01:58 PM EST
    somebody check his drawers...I think he's pissing himself, and only the torture of captives can stop the flow.

    really? (none / 0) (#10)
    by capitalistfloridaboy on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:09:09 PM EST
    Were they pulling out their finger nails? Electric shock? Breaking their knee caps? Pulling teeth with pliers? Burning them with cigars? No......just pouring water over their heads and scaring the bad guys. Water boarding is no where near torture....it just scares them. Deal with it......stop feeling sorry for these jackasses.....or better yet, chop their heads off like they do to their captives. .

    Funny guy... (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by kdog on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:17:01 PM EST
    if you've seen the evidence against these captives, please share it.  For all I know they could be bloodthirsty terrorist scum, or innocent sheep-herders.  Regardless...captives should never be tortured.

    I'll tell you this...I will err on the side of sovereign individuals over any state in the world...even my state.  States have no face and no soul.

    fwiw...The CIA has been pulling out fingernails and electro-shocking for over 50 years...it is what we pay them to do, much to my dismay.  If it was up to me I'd disband that criminal enterprise alltogether.


    Amen Brother (none / 0) (#19)
    by CDN Ctzn on Wed May 13, 2009 at 03:19:48 PM EST
    They have been a pariah on the American soul since their inception.