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The "Stale Debate" On The Financial Crisis

E.J. Dionne quotes President Obama at the G-20 Summit:

"We can't fall back on the stale debates and old divides," Obama said at his Wednesday news conference in London with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

As applied to the financial crisis, this is simply nonsense from President Obama. He is applying a solution that has been tested and failed. In Japan in the 1990s. Dionne acknowledges this by citing Krugman and Stiglitz:

Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner believes that the toxic assets in their portfolios are temporarily undervalued in a bad economy. This means they will be worth more when the economy improves, which in turn means that the banks aren't really broke.

Krugman, the New York Times columnist who has emerged as Geithner's most prominent critic, thinks the banks [Krugman thinks SOME banks are insolvent actually] are insolvent. He believes that the economy will improve more slowly than Geithner does and sees many of the toxic assets as "trash." Therefore, Krugman thinks a temporary government takeover of some of the banks is inevitable and will ultimately get the economy moving more quickly. Geithner thinks a takeover will be more difficult than its supporters allow and might slow economic recovery. He prefers the more cautious approach of having government and private investors buy up the toxic assets before considering more radical steps.

The other two disagreements follow from the first. Critics of the administration plan (notably Stiglitz) believe it involves government subsidies for private investors that are much too large and will leave taxpayers far too exposed.

The Dionne upshot:

If Geithner is correct, he will move us to recovery with less disruption. If he's wrong, he will waste a lot of taxpayer money before eventually reaching the Krugman solution. My heart is with the Nobel critics, but my head hopes that Geithner is making the right bet.

That's the Obama enigma: boldness wrapped in caution rooted in an ambivalent relationship to the status quo. This is why Obama will, by turns, challenge not only his entrenched adversaries but also his natural allies.

This is horsesh*t. If you think Geithner and Obama are wrong, you say that. Natural allies? Your natural allies support you when they think you are right and criticize you when they think you are wrong. Right now, Obama's wave of the "stale debate" rhetoric will not make his policy right.

Speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    He's scr!wed (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Salo on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 08:38:01 AM EST
    Realy out of his depth.  

    Dionne never said this... (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Salo on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:35:40 AM EST
    That's the Obama enigma: boldness wrapped in caution rooted in an ambivalent relationship to the status quo. This is why Obama will, by turns, challenge not only his entrenched adversaries but also his natural allies.

    ...back in 2008.

    What is really stale (5.00 / 9) (#10)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:46:45 AM EST
    is Obama trotting out his old "stale debate" line when he is asked to debate a real issue. Obviously this debate about the Krugman approach vs the Geithner plan is not at all stale. I'd like to see him address it honestly head-on for once.

    You can't address it head on... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by BigElephant on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:04:38 AM EST
    Not in today's media.  Addressing it head on would require going DEEP into the books of the banks.  There is simply no way to do this to get most journalists to follow (even most financial journalists) and you'd certainly lose almost every reader.  

    For example I was trying to show a recent college grad the role of discounted cash flow in company valuation.  I thought it would be a five minute discussion, but it turned into an hour.  How are you going to get basic economic concepts as well as simple accounting concepts, and then tie it all together in a way to see who's right in this debate -- especially when the data certainly won't be conclusive.  In talking about insolvency there are so many different ways to count assets and liabilities and cash flow, etc...  This is something real economists like Summers and Krugman will have real disagreement about.  And you think JT Plumber will be more enlightened as a result of it?  While I love openness, I'm also skeptical.

    And while I think Krugman is a great economist I'm not sure I have the data to support his basic thesis, and he certainly hasn't presented it (and in fairness to him, I don't think he could do it in the NY Times -- it would probably need to be a seminar series at Princeton).

    Parent

    Go around the media filter then (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by ruffian on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:46:08 PM EST
    I thought that was part of his plan. Make a video on the web site laying out the real pros and cons of the approaches, and how and why he made the decision he did. I want to know his thinking on this - why he thinks Krugman, Stiglitz, Galbraith, Reich, etc are wrong. I'm willing to believe they are wrong if he explains it to me. We all want Obama to be right on this and would like to get some confidence that he is doing the right thing.  

    Parent
    Not so easy... (none / 0) (#105)
    by BigElephant on Sat Apr 04, 2009 at 08:00:28 AM EST
    For example, the crux of one of their issues is the toxicity of certain assets.  How do you prove is right?  It's almost impossible.  People have different opinions on their value and almost certainly different opinions on their future values.  And even worse, the MOST fundamental mechanism we have for valuing assets is currently deemed to be questionable.  This mechanism is free market pricing of said assets.  Now if that doesn't work you may try to price other assets and establish some type of historical correlation, or maybe even a pseudo-futures market.  But now once you start going down this path, things getting somewhat complicated.  Arguments and counter-arguments start looking equally good or bad, largely depending on who you liked to begin with.

    And note, Krugman, Stiglitz, etc... haven't proven their case either.  They've asserted their correct, but haven't presented evidence of it.  But their reputation precedes them.  Remove Krugman's name from his argument and say it came from David Brooks and you'd suddenly say that this is just not so interesting.  Note, I'm not saying he's at all wrong.  I'm just saying he hasn't proven his case.

    Parent

    Krugman has Wolfowitz's certitude (2.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 11:22:40 AM EST
    Democracy in Iraq and the entire Middle East through "bold action" also sounded very good in theory, the devil of course was in the details.
    Since I believe in details, I did not trust Wolfowitz about Iraq, nor will buy into Krugman's simplistic panacea regarding the economy till he provides line details of balance sheet data to support his columns.


    Parent
    Krugman = Wolfowitz (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:05:20 PM EST
    Jesus Christ

    Parent
    Everytime I hear "Jesus Christ"... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by JoeCHI on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:39:29 PM EST
    ...I can't help but think of Mr. Slave from Southpark saying it!

    Jezuz Chrisz!

    Parent

    I needed that (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:52:32 PM EST
    I'm going to go play it all day.  I'm currently a pain3.

    Parent
    "Long grunting"... (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by JoeCHI on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    ...is quite the show-stopper!

    Parent
    Geithner is the gov;t official here (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:15:35 PM EST
    you have it backwards.

    Parent
    It's stale to him because he's made (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Anne on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:25:43 PM EST
    up his mind; in order for it to be a debate, he would have to be engaging those with differing opinions, and he's really not - I'm waiting for him to say "talk to the hand" next, that's how closed off he and the Geithner Gang are.

    Parent
    Inconvenient debate (none / 0) (#14)
    by Salo on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:52:20 AM EST
    embarrassing debate etc.

    Parent
    he loves stale rhetoric however (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by JoanAllenNow on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:56:42 AM EST
    wah wah wah, once more nothing said that is not defensive and self serving.

    I hope someone at G20 (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:26:24 PM EST
    will ask Obama, "does it bother you that some of your country's most famous economists disagree with your approach?"  The answer is obvious from his attitude, but still galling.  

    If someone asks this (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 03:40:22 PM EST
    It will be scrubbed from video available through the White House.

    Parent
    The Obots LOVE their Word-Fogs... (4.33 / 3) (#3)
    by JoeCHI on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:18:27 AM EST
    ...because they enable their insatiable appetite for indulging in "WORM-ing" (What Obama Really Meant) as well as their "Eleven-Demensional-Chess" memes.

    In the end, BTD's right.  It's nothing but "horsesh*t", and there's nothing audacious about it.

    People feel sorry for you. (2.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:34:57 AM EST
    That may be true (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:38:11 AM EST
    But that is pretty pathetic from Dionne.

    If he thinks Obama/Geithner is right, then say so.

    If he thinks Obama/Geithner is wrong, then say so.

    If he has no opinion, then say so.

    This is some horsesh*t from Dionne.

    Parent

    I agree... (3.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:48:43 AM EST
    ...with what you said, although I sort of disagree with your rhetorical framing, as I note in a comment below.

    Regardless of whether I agree with you or not, though, people who talk about "Obots" aren't helping your case and so I'm not sure why you respond to my (factual) statement that people feel sorry for these folks who are still in that mindset with arguments for your own case.

    The two have nothing to do with each other. People still fighting the primary season's propaganda war have nothing to do with actual arguments or normal debate; because they will say the same exact thing -- Obots, word-fog, etc. -- regardless of the facts. So they have nothing to do with your point.

    Parent

    You don't have to be still fighting (5.00 / 10) (#12)
    by tigercourse on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:51:05 AM EST
    the primary war to recognize that a sizable portion of Obama supporters (all of Dailykos, all of Huffingtion, etc.) will support anything and everything Obama does, without question.

    Parent
    Yep (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by lambert on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:30:47 AM EST
    Authoritarian followers aren't only Republicans. Who knew?

    Parent
    Untrue. (3.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:53:17 AM EST
    Oh please (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:54:20 AM EST
    Absolutely true. How can you deny that?

    Parent
    Oh please indeed... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 11:47:40 AM EST
    ...you know perfectly well that "all of Dailykos" and "all of Huffington Post" don't think anything.

    There has been loads of criticism of Geithner's financial plan on Dailykos.

    So that's how I can deny that.

    It isn't true.

    It makes denials a simple, simple thing.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:09:16 PM EST
    if you are gonna misquote tigercourse, then what's the effing point?

    the actual words written were these "the primary war to recognize that a sizable portion of Obama supporters (all of Dailykos, all of Huffingtion, etc.) will support anything and everything Obama does, without question."

    This is undeniably true and it is what you denied. Ridiculous.


    Parent

    To be clear (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:11:00 PM EST
    there has been SOME criticism of Geithner and Obama at Daily Kos but NONE from the FP and very little from the community.

    My gawd, the STFU mentality is absolutely dominant there and led by FPers. And you know it. Why deny the obvious.

    Parent

    very true (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by JoanAllenNow on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:02:36 AM EST
    and the same actions by anyone else would be wildly condemned. It's just the other end of the Bush lovers spectrum

    Parent
    there's practically no criticism... (4.75 / 4) (#20)
    by Salo on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:58:15 AM EST
    ...for Obama from the black community for example.  Nothing that's made it into the press anyway.  With 8 % unemployment, and the impending bankruptcy of state and municipal governments that silence is a bit perplexing.  Krugman is doing all the heavy lifting here...it's a sad spectacle.

    Parent
    Of Course from (none / 0) (#37)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:57:21 AM EST
    some parties here, its just the opposite Obama can do nothing right, I mean sure the man just pushed through the most progressive budget in more than 30 years, but let's not even credit him for that.

    Parent
    So what? (none / 0) (#76)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:07:51 PM EST
    Let's ignore all of it.

    Parent
    I love the fiction (3.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:55:10 AM EST
    that this was somehow a new thing for a Dem- Both Bill Clinton and JFK and had their followers- see those who try to justify 'Nam, DADT, Rwanda, etc. and even in the primary Hillary had a similarily hard core of supporters- see the whackadoo PUMAs, or the formerly respectable people like Larry Johnson and Lambert (less so Lambert who while he irrationally hated everything Obama ever did and even violated Godwin's probably only pretended to like Hillary). The notion that Obama was somehow alone in his less rational backers is just wrong- you still have commenters here who believe the equivalent of "Hillary Killed Vince Foster" about Obama, and trade in long disproven lies (see random "99 Problems" stuff- Its like people are willing to believe anything about a man they don't like).

    Parent
    Thank you for the roundup (none / 0) (#43)
    by Cream City on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 11:45:14 AM EST
    of stale debates, et al.

    Parent
    Sorry, guess I forgot (none / 0) (#102)
    by Cream City on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 06:26:27 PM EST
    the <snark> tag. . . .

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#75)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:07:21 PM EST
    So let's all stop pretending shall we?

    and let's actually debate the issues.

    Parent

    I responded (4.50 / 2) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:53:52 AM EST
    because you had not yet made a substantive comment and I was disappointed that you chose to engage OBot rhetoric instead of my point.

    BTW, there are OBots, just as there are people who think Hillary would not being doing the exact same thing (I am not one of those people) and people who think Krugman's analysis is based on his animus for Obama and that he hates black folks (including apparently his African American wife.)

    And there are people who can only talk about PUMAs. I do not bother with them either.

    At this point, I ignore all that stuff and just write about the issues.

    I do not even chide these people anymore, outside of my snark line  whenever I quote someone critical of the Geithner Plan - "but Krugman always hated Obama so he must be wrong."

    Parent

    I was thinking about Krugman here too. lol (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Salo on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:02:39 AM EST
    maybe he's the conduit for criticism that Black people feel they cannot make in public about Obama? when we hit 12% unemployment I hope someone important breaks ranks and points out that Obama in an economic orthodox dressed up as a radical and he's selling the working class down the river.

    Parent
    I agree with Krugman (none / 0) (#38)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:58:57 AM EST
    but at the same time let's not pretend the guy hasn't taken shot after shot at Obama pretty much since the man declared his canidacy, and many times over things he let others get away with.

    Parent
    "Let others get away with" (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:06:28 PM EST
    like what for instance?

    Let's not pretend you can provide an actual example.

    Parent

    Finally... (2.00 / 1) (#104)
    by BigElephant on Sat Apr 04, 2009 at 07:50:30 AM EST
    Finally someone who can actually prove to me and the American people that our banks are insolvent.  

    Since this is so easy, prove that Citigroup is insolvent.  

    And BTW, explain the current banking crisis.  You'll realize that it is a LOT more difficult than you think.  You'll realize that part of it is about the housing bubble, and directly subprime mortgages. And then you'll tie in CDS and CDOs.  Then you'll realize that the GDP to debt ratio may play a role. Then you'll see the potential effects of currency.  Then you'll have to consider confidence after the money market shakeup and liquidity freeze.  Throw in some of the Black Swan effect.  The role of the Gaussian Copula.  Then you'll look at the widening of the wealth distribution.  Then the demographic change.  Then the effects of deregulation. What about interest rate mismanagement.  

    All this to say that we still really don't understand what exactly happened, which is why despite claims that some people may make, no one really knew this was coming (sure some people saw a housing bubble, which was obvious, but they weren't talking about a global economic collapse).  

    Again, simplification is the enemy of knowledge.  People here keep talking about taking this head on.  As if there is some uberforce that needs to be taken on.  It's intricately complex, so much so that the general public would get lost in the details.  And frankly they shouldn't have to know about them.  Obama needs to just get it fixed, and I think that's what he's trying to do.  Maybe not the approach that I agree with, but they spend 12 hours a day thinking about this and have a LOT more data at their disposal.

    Every cloud has a silver lining (none / 0) (#2)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 08:38:43 AM EST
    Please click on [link]

    Would the analog to that... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Romberry on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 11:24:00 AM EST
    ...silver lining be the Dust Bowl Days when farmers/Okies lost their farms in droves and banks sold 'em off for pennies on the dollar to the ancestors of modern industrial agricultural conglomerates?

    I don't see the silver in some people getting a house for cheap through the misery discount...and that's what this is.

    Parent

    You should remember (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 11:32:19 AM EST
    that these first time buyers from the working class (nurses and construction workers) were priced out of the market all these years by speculators because they tried to live within their means.  

    Parent
    Then at best it's a wash, (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Romberry on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:14:22 PM EST
    One working class family loses their home and has the credit ruined after following the advice/exhortations/tax code incentives to become a homeowner and getting wiped out. Someone else gets to come in and pick up the pieces. Taxpayers get to bail out the banks. And the first homeowner...well...who cares about those deadbeats, right?

    Sorry, I don't see any silver here unless it's the light reflected from pools of tears.

    Sure, it's better that the people getting these properties at something close to actual value are not getting (rhymes with ducked.) But the people on the street? Quack, quack, quack. They're getting...ducked...hard.

    Parent

    But the peeps on the street (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by hookfan on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:34:14 PM EST
    are irresponsible. They are because they got sick, or lost their job, or divorced, or one partner died. Things we all should be able to predict, or be rich enough to weather, don't ya know?
       I wonder what will happen to that nurse quoted in the Times article if she loses her job, gets a catastrophic illness? Since she struggled working two jobs to make enough for a down payment, doesn't look like she's independently wealthy. I predict she would lose her house and get inducted into the glorious category of the irresponsible, no accounts like the rest of us sleazy, working class homeowners who are struggling to make ends meet. Yeah, there must be some silver lining when the urine trickles down from on high. . .

    Parent
    I'm with Romberry on this (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 03:35:57 PM EST
    unless the article says the first time buyers are scoring a house that was lost by one of the investors who caused all this, I'm missing the silver lining part.

    That's a pretty nice house for a first time buyer, don'tcha think?

    Parent

    What position does his pancreas take? (none / 0) (#7)
    by tigercourse on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:42:50 AM EST


    Well... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:43:16 AM EST
    ...while I agree with you that the current response to the economic downturn is hardly fresh, Obama was not referencing that debate on what to do about the financial crisis.

    So we have a choice: We can shape our future, or let events shape it for us. And if we want to succeed, we can't fall back on the stale debates and old divides that won't move us forward. Every single nation who's here has a stake in the other.

    He was saying -- echoing his major theme of the press conference -- that the EU, Russia, China, the USA, and other nations shouldn't let the past 8 years of strained relations block a unified effort to recover from the financial crisis.

    He was not talking about the "stale debate" of nationalization of banks or not. He was talking about the "stale debate" of international diplomacy as it applies to solving global problems; a theme that was repeated in his comments on most all the issues addressed at the news conference.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:45:11 AM EST
    Dionne brought the comment to the financial crisis, which is the big debate today.

    And his column was horsesh*t on that issue.

    Parent

    The comment was about the financial issue... (3.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:52:11 AM EST
    ...just a separate aspect that was more diplomacy-oriented than policy-oriented.

    I agree with your general points. And I certainly agree that Dionne should stop trying to have it both ways in a sad attempt to be "serious," or whatever we're calling faux moderation these days.

    I just don't think that particular Obama quote can really be held against him, in this particular way, when it's viewed in context.
    Especially when it's clear that on many issues -- some financial and some not -- the rhetoric of "getting past old divides" IS, in fact, turning into real action and policy and garnering results with nuclear non-proliferation, tax haven status (sort of), and other issues.

    Parent

    Honestly (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:55:22 AM EST
    At this point, I think the line has run its course and it is time to jettison it.

    It was a schtick during the campaign. Now it is just annoying.

    Parent

    yeah (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by JoanAllenNow on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 09:58:50 AM EST
    it was annoying during the campaign too

    Parent
    Meh (4.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:00:04 AM EST
    Politics is annoying. More annoying to me was the folsk who took it seriously.

    Parent
    The schtick (2.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:09:56 AM EST
    that so and so is a "fighter" and Obama is not was annoying during the primaries, GE and doubly annoying and stale now.

    Parent
    A lot of people made that claim (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:17:35 AM EST
    adoringly and admiringly about Obama though.  In fact, the first I heard of it was from supporters who were in the process of eliminating the threat that Edwards posed early on.  Then again in their fight against the Clintons.

    Parent
    Feh (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by lambert on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:33:19 AM EST
    How about fighting to make sure single payer gets on the table, instead of censoring it?

    Parent
    Oh God (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:22:06 PM EST
    I'm so outraged at those representing me right now that I have to use selective memory to even have access to using my words.  After so much BushCo White House website scrubbing and thinking I was getting CHANGE, I'm so livid about this and why am I so alone in my lividity?

    Parent
    You (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:47:32 PM EST
    aren't alone. There's a lot of people who are mad or disappointed but you probably aren't going to find many of them blogging.

    Parent
    Listening to people on the bus (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by hookfan on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:52:23 PM EST
     there's alot of angry outrage. but the working class are often overlooked-- until election time. Watch out! Chris Dodd!

    Parent
    I don't give a flip who was labeled (5.00 / 2) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:11:55 PM EST
    a fighter and not a fighter in the primary or the election.  We are in serious serious trouble here and I care about today, and what we must accomplish today....i don't give a caca about a straw fight. The foundation of this financial fiasco is an untended mess from hell.

    Parent
    Hope and change! (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by Romberry on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:16:39 PM EST
    Man, are you telling me that you don't wanna fight the primary fights again? Come on! Hope and change is even better the second time 'round.

    (I think I just threw up a little...)

    Parent

    If someone self consciously... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Salo on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:16:03 AM EST
    ...takes on the mantle of working class hero, I tend to find that a good starting point.  If they trade off on old school connections and  being bipartisan I think it's a poor starting point.  Hope I didn't miss you point.

    Parent
    Class in America (2.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Politalkix on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:38:36 AM EST
    is a lot more fluid and hence complicated to define than some in TL think.

    Parent
    The truth (none / 0) (#32)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:27:58 AM EST
    can be annoying at times....

    Parent
    Well... (4.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:00:22 PM EST
    ...a couple of points. Obviously the rhetoric needs a backbone, and said backbone needs to provide good reults.

    I think Obama genuinely does view transcendence of existing battles as a good method of governance and policy making. So your comment that it's "schtick" is a little unfair in that it seems to cast Obama as a huckster when I think it's pretty clear he believes in it.

    The effectiveness of the strategy is variable. Clearly we've made progress with Russia, however long that might last. We seem on the verge of a new level of relationship with China. Foreign Policy wise Obama's role as "post-Bush president" and general desire to move on from the past eight years of division has already reaped rewards, I imagine it will continue to do so.

    Domestically it is closer to schtick, merely because the GOP has shown they have no desire to move on (it doesn't benefit them to do so in the way it benefits other nations), and compromises are often unnecessary and make the policies worse. Here, in America, it is much more of a tool to keep approval ratings and political capital levels up.

    Again, I think Obama has shown through his career that he believes it. It has worked in the past. It hardly ever works for good policymaking domestically, especially with the national GOP in the cowering, cornered, teeth-baring state they are in.

    Parent

    Geez, I hope not (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:16:46 PM EST
    "I think Obama genuinely does view transcendence of existing battles as a good method of governance and policy making. So your comment that it's "schtick" is a little unfair in that it seems to cast Obama as a huckster when I think it's pretty clear he believes in it."

    If Obama believes it, then we are really up sh*t's creek.

    Parent

    Transcendence of existing battles... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:24:55 PM EST
    ...does not have to mean capitulation and compromise.

    It just means not fighting some battle that's been unproductive and finding a new, hopefully more beneficial, way to discuss the issue/policy.

    It is, ideally, a reformulation of the debate, not merely moderation of the same debate.

    Obviously, however, where Obama has been successful with the strategy he has employed the former interpretation, and where he has failed he has employed the latter.

    Parent

    It means nothing (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:05:20 PM EST
    Transcending the debate means WINNING the debate.

    It is useless political schtick. It always has been. It always will be.

    It is utterly meaningless.

    Parent

    If the debate is inane... (none / 0) (#90)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:53:15 PM EST
    ...has become about superficialities and partisan entrenchment, and has been stalled for decades it's not meaningless to try to reformulate the debate rather than try -- for another few decades -- to win it.

    I think you vastly overestimate the number of political debates that are actually about policy or reality these days.

    Trying to get past dead end terms to deal with the real situations behind a debate is a good idea, not one that should be dismissed as schtick, regardless of one's opinion of Obama.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:59:31 PM EST
    Maybe he can walk on water too.

    Politics is what it is and Obama ain't gonna change it.

    Parent

    Oh, geez... (none / 0) (#98)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 03:25:01 PM EST
    ..."walk on water?"

    An "Obamessiah" reference?

    Talk about tired rhetoric that began as vapidity and has become annoying.

    I don't disagree with most of what you're saying on this issue, particularly as regards the financial crisis and the need for Obama to harness favorable public opinion and ride it somewhere as opposed to putting it in the stable.

    But you act as if I haven't qualified what I've said by defining situations in which "transcending" the debate is useless (or worse), ie: when it's really just moderating the position. You act like reformulating a debate's terms along new lines is something airy and abstract, something impossible, when it's done all the time (though usually by Republicans). You act like I disagree with all you say or am one of the fabled Obots, another hive-mind fresh in from Dailykos, where apparently "all" of the posters have never said a bad thing about Obama/Geithner's plan.  

    I disagreed with your decontextualization of one of Obama's remark. Most of the other stuff I agreed with. You disregard that. Who even knows why.

    Parent

    Does he or doesn't he (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:31:56 PM EST
    believe it?  I think your comment suggests he actually doesn't.  In FP areas it might work (and seems like a more natural fit).  Iran and his policy there is a good example.

    But if you acknowledge that domestically the rhetoric is just a tool then what?  It has no value beyond that and hardly ever works.  So when will he switch his rhetoric to something more substantial that could put in place better policies?  Obviously FDR comes to mind - and nothing about the Geithner plan cries bold experimentation.

    Parent

    I made myself clear. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:39:11 PM EST
    You are right to note, as I did, that in FP is seems a better fit.

    Occasionally it will be useful domestically, but often -- given the current (and usual, actually) state of things it will not be useful most of the time. However, I think Obama believes it's a good starting point regardless of the end point because it changes the debate terms to something more beneficial to him and gives him the high ground in this idiotic age where "bipartisanship" is crowed about by the media.

    And, as I said, when he's successfully using the strategy he's reformulating the terms of the debate, not just moderating the terms of a compromise. I believe that reformulation is always useful, therefore I don't get annoyed by the rhetoric, I just wish it was implemented by reformulating and not moderating.

    Regardless of the policy implications it appears to be useful as rhetoric, too. That's separate from the occasionally good, occasionally bad policy implications.

    Parent

    I just don't see (5.00 / 4) (#64)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:52:36 PM EST
    how the rhetoric has worked all that well on issues.  Yes it's worked for him and his political fortunes.  But as you say sometimes it reformulates the debate, other times moderates and in these times "moderation" means "takes the debate right."  Ex. Abortion, Rick Warren, certain stimulus arguments.  

    Polls show support of "preprivatizing" or "temporarily taking over" banks for instance.  In some ways the people are way far ahead of Obama.  So...

    Domestically the Obama rhetoric is to me a Beltway game.  It may have some success, but I don't think it's the best possible strategy.  Obama now has a really loud left flank on the finanicial crisis.  The Obama team's response to them?  Belittle or ignore.  That's a total waste of a left flank.  Hating on Krugman is not a politically smart thing to do for Obama.  The centrists eating the left is an old battle I would like to see transcended.

    Parent

    I don't disagree with what you've said... (none / 0) (#70)
    by Addison on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:02:41 PM EST
    ...I just also agree with what I've said, and I don't feel the two are mutually exclusive. When Obama moderates it's not a good use of his "transcendant debate" worldview, when he reformulates it is. I'll note that Obama has only been in office for two months, and there hasn't been much time or policy material to evaluate the actual implementation of policies besides the fairly opaque and uninspiring bank bailout policy. So far I'd say he's not reformulating the debate enough, even though that should be pretty easy to do given his popularity and the national situation.

    Parent
    I am not so sure given the fact (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:00:31 AM EST
    that the central focus of the G20 summit was the economic crisis - and Obama's team was there to defend deregulation and our "sovereignty" in being able to choose to screw up the world economy by keeping our markets as free of regulation as possible if we feel like it.  Much of his rhetoric was his boiler plate stuff about "moving on together" by ignoring the past bad acts and the destructive people who got us to the place where we are now.

    It is becoming more obvious, at least to me, that the Obama Administration really does not want a full accounting that stress tests, new regulation or nationalization would bring.  I think it is pretty bad news that they will do anything to avoid having to disclose.

    As was pointed out in the mark to market post, investors aren't likely to be fooled by this stuff though - not for long anyway - and if they are going to get away with it they're going to need a huge economic boom to come quickly and explode quickly.  

    Parent

    if 5% are fooled (none / 0) (#26)
    by Salo on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:04:18 AM EST
    there will be a new boom.

    Parent
    The people who control the money (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 10:14:07 AM EST
    are going to dip in and out betting on market reactions to various news and shifts, which is how they make their profits.  But they are pretty tuned in and now that there are a lot of people who have lost millions, billions etc., there are a whole lot more reality-based investors roaming Wall Street.  Yesterday's uptick was essentially a strategic re-positioning based on the change in the rule.  There isn't really any more value or less risk there though and the professional investors understand that.

    Parent
    Yuppers! (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:17:16 PM EST
    Well said

    Parent
    If 5% are fooled there will be (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:15:29 PM EST
    another Kaboom :)  What am I talking about?  We are getting another Kaboom anyhow.

    Parent
    Defending deregulation?... (none / 0) (#39)
    by santarita on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 11:21:43 AM EST
    I guess I didn't hear that part.

    As to defending US "sovereignty" that part is more than likely politically expedient.  On the other hand as Simon Johnson points out in today's NYT, Obama has paved the way for more emerging market participation in the IMF and has made it possible that the future head of the IMF will be neither American or European - perhaps Chinese.  Given that the G-20 has strengthened the IMF and has made it the de facto Superregulator, that is a rather revolutionary step.

    Are Americans ready to become subject to international financial regulation?  Sometime the goal must be reached with incremental steps.

    Parent

    Sarkozy signaled before the (5.00 / 4) (#54)
    by inclusiveheart on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:22:03 PM EST
    conference began that he would leave the G20 if they did not come to an agreement about regulation.  The Obama Administration made it clear that they wanted the focus to be on more stimulus spending in the EU as opposed to regulation - both France and Germany are opposed to more stimulus spending because they fear runaway inflation and they argue that with their social safety net being far superior and more comprehensive than ours, their stimulus is already in place through those programs.

    What this international body will do and whether or not their agreements will ultimately become a reality remains to be seen and I think that is exactly the best outcome the Obama Administration could have hoped for under the circumstances.  I really do think that they are trying to avoid a full accounting of what is going on inside the too big to fail banks.

    Parent

    Sigh (none / 0) (#65)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:55:45 PM EST
    That statement followed his comments on domestic and international regulatory reform of the financial system, avoiding protectionism, aiding emerging markets, strategy in Afghanistan and Pakistan, defeating al Qaeda by strengthening international cooperation, efforts to promote international diplomacy to broker peace between Israel and the Palestinians, ending the war in Iraq, getting Iran to abandon its nuclear weapons ambitions, global action to deal with climate change, pursuing nuclear nonproliferation, and dealing with the economic crisis. Obviously he's speaking of increasing reliance on international cooperation in order to deal with the world's many problems:

    So we have a choice: We can shape our future, or let events shape it for us. And if we want to succeed, we can't fall back on the stale debates and old divides that won't move us forward. Every single nation who's here has a stake in the other. We won't solve all our problems in the next few days, but we can make real and unprecedented progress.

    Whatever the merits of the Geithner plan, that isn't what he's talking about even in the narrowest reading of this statement. He's talking about not falling into old habits of protectionism internationally, something that's usually applauded, even here.

    Tell it to Dionne (none / 0) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 12:57:05 PM EST
    BTW, I am sick of the line in any context.

    He needs to stop saying it.

    Parent

    Yes, the misuse of the quote is (none / 0) (#67)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:00:54 PM EST
    initially Dionne's. That doesn't mean it should be further promulgated once what he was actually talking about is pointed out and backed up with a link to the transcript. I'll be looking for an update on your story now that you're aware of the facts.

    Parent
    Facts are facts (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:03:51 PM EST
    but it's also the truth that Obama brings that attitude and framing to domestic debates...for better or worse.  

    It really isn't like this is the first time he has said anything like that.  

    Parent

    Except ... (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Lacey on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 03:33:14 PM EST
    It's in reference to Republican criticism. I actually haven't heard him even try to debate Krugman or Stiglitz on this, which I think is a mistake. If he thinks their wrong then he should come out forcefully to explain why. He hasn't done that. He's almost acting as if it doesn't even exist.

    Parent
    An obvious point (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:14:44 PM EST
    Well... (none / 0) (#83)
    by lilburro on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:18:47 PM EST
    No update (none / 0) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:02:14 PM EST
    This was my use of Dionne's application of the phrase.

    Your objection is beyond silly.

    Parent

    Sheesh (none / 0) (#78)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:09:28 PM EST
    You recognize what Dionne said is inaccurate but you're willing to continue to promote it without acknowledging the inaccuracy. Wow.

    Parent
    Inaccurate? (4.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:14:20 PM EST
    Dionne took an example of Obama using his stale line about stale arguments and applied it to the financial crisis debate.

    Your whine is completely absurd. Neither Dionne nor I are arguing that he used that quote in the financial crisis but rather has exhibited that MENTALITY in discussing it.

    Seriously, is this all you have to say about the subject? Really? Then I have no idea why you are even participating in this thread, hell, at this site. That is the kind of BS they pull at DKos. We talk issues here.

    Parent

    Pointing out the facts (none / 0) (#84)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:21:02 PM EST
    certainly does seem pointless here. Sorry I bothered you with them. Carry on.

    Parent
    Pffft (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:26:35 PM EST
    you pointed out no facts.

    The facts were apparent to anyone who actually read the post and Dionne's article.

    Your attempted hijack is a fail.

    And stop the BS. Or leave. I do not need the nonsense.

    There are serious issues to be discussed. You apparently have no interest in discussing them. Do this little act at dkos where it will be appreciated.

    Parent

    Yes there are serious issues to be discussed (none / 0) (#91)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:53:36 PM EST
    And when a discussion is premised on a starting point that's wrong, what follows is just going to be useless or worse. What if in fact the Geithner plan actually won't cost taxpayers more than outright nationalization like Krugman assumes, as this post argues? I think Krugman's point yesterday was quite cogent, that the banking sector will have to shrink and therefore it's more a matter of selecting which banks to save to protect taxpayer funds. The Geithner plan may well be designed to accomplish the same thing, just from a more cautious political direction.

    But arguing that Obama must be intending to do something because he said something in a completely different context about a completely different topic isn't likely to lead to useful or honest discussion. It just promotes stale old kneejerk Obama bashing and doesn't further actual understanding of the situation or advocacy of anything reality based.

    Parent

    More nonsense (none / 0) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:58:25 PM EST
    Please, when you have something to say about issues, let me know.

    Parent
    My comments and (none / 0) (#94)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 02:11:26 PM EST
    the points I've made here are all completely substantive and meant to put discussion of the actual issues on a more accurate track. Your responses on the other hand - "It's Dionne's fault not mine," "You're silly," and "Go away" - hm, well, issues is not the first word that comes to mind...

    Parent
    Substantive? (none / 0) (#95)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 02:14:50 PM EST
    If you think so, then what is left to say? you have uttered not one word about the Geithner Plan other than "you are still weighing it."

    When you have something to say about the Geithner Plan, let me know.

    Parent

    My thoughts on the (none / 0) (#96)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 02:46:19 PM EST
    Geithner plan itself haven't shifted from what I've said here and here for example. I don't think what it's really designed to do can be resolved until we see how the administration acts over the next few months, i.e., whether the banks participate in the plan, price discovery reveals which banks are insolvent, and if they then use that information to nationalize those banks.

    They need cooperation and acknowlegment of their insolvency from the banks themselves to be able to deal with such huge institutions in that case. If they don't then nationalize the insolvent ones and just let them unload all the toxic stuff at 100% it's a bad plan. If they do nationalize at that point it was a good plan because it will have unfrozen the system against the best interests of the individual insolvent banks (but to the benefit of the system as a whole).

    And in any case, recapitalization will have to be done anyway, and it isn't going to be enough coming just from private sources. So the taxpayers are going to have to do some bailing out no matter what if they want a banking system.

    But since this particular post was premised on an inaccurate use of a quote I don't see why you should be able to fairly say objecting to that inaccuracy is threadjacking or BS or nonsense. That's just your defense for choosing to not correct when the inaccuracy is pointed out, because it forwards your pressure against the Geithner plan, which you obviously have made your mind up is wrong-headed and bad, and anyone who doesn't agree with that is a mindless obot, etc. etc. etc.

    Parent

    Unless of course (none / 0) (#71)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:03:19 PM EST
    you want to pretend Obama is not acting as if debate about the Geithner Plan is stale. If so, you are revealing yourself to be an uncritical acceptor of the Obama talking points, imo.

    Parent
    I'm still weighing the merits (none / 0) (#82)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:17:10 PM EST
    of the Geithner plan. There are arguments on both sides that are convincing and I don't have the knowledge to weigh them all properly. I still think it's a means to lead the insolvent banks to deal with their insolvency instead of freezing up the system with their inaction.

    So no good trying to pin the "mindless obot" label on me to try to shift the point of what I'm saying. You know now that what Dionne wrote is inaccurate. Will you acknowledge that in your post or not? You say you won't.

    Parent

    So weigh them (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 01:25:05 PM EST
    Do not come to my posts and derail them with nonsense.

    Parent
    Do you guys ever plan on discussing Obamas budget (none / 0) (#97)
    by ai002h on Fri Apr 03, 2009 at 02:56:19 PM EST
    on this site? You're wasting a great opportunity for activism and pushing congress to not water this thing down to death. They'll be meeting in conference pretty soon so you guys should spend less time regurgitating the same thoughts of Obama's bank bailout plan. Trust me guys, I agree with you. His plan is half-measured and not the best he can do. But lets have some variety with the posts here, for the sake of Obama's agenda.