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Smoking Tax Begins Today

Are any of you quitting today?

How are you going to do it? A spa would be nice. Click through the photos here. Here's another, program here and photos here -- although $1,200. a night for the room on top of the cost of the 14 day program and airfare to the Maldives puts it out of most people's reach. But it does make the tax look cheap by comparison.

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    Quitters never win.... (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 11:58:40 AM EST
    and I resent trying to be extorted into stopping a behavior I enjoy.  A 159% increase, f*ck you too Uncle Sam.

    Black market and Native American reservation purchases it is...I guess I should be grateful, the state finally priced me out of being lazy and just paying the obscene vig.  They slayed their golden goose, at least in regards to this sucker.

    And greed always slays the golden goose...will we ever learn?

    Man...Kdog...from the tone of this post (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:02:49 PM EST
    I could swear that you are somewhere around day number two in an effort to quit!

    Parent
    LOL.... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:19:07 PM EST
    Not even nicotine withdrawals could spark the kind of ire I'm feeling right now.

    Parent
    Surprised you haven't quit to (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:01:00 PM EST
    benefit your ability to play softball.

    Parent
    You kidding... (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:13:14 PM EST
    it's softball, the sport of slobs who can't hack baseball...I smoke while manning second base and can turn a double-play pivot while taking a drag, then take a swig of my Pabst waiting at the edge of the outfield grass:)

    The best is basketball...running a slob into the ground, and then seeing the look on his face as I light up a post-game Red...it's priceless:)

    Parent

    Then when softball is no longer an option... (none / 0) (#11)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:16:06 PM EST
    given your habits, you're already pretty much good to go with bowling.

    Parent
    But I bowl like... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:25:45 PM EST
    congress legislates....bloody awful.

    Parent
    I think I resent that! n/t (none / 0) (#15)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:25:56 PM EST
     

    Parent
    Former Iowan still bowls? (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:27:50 PM EST
    It's in the blood... (none / 0) (#33)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:48:26 PM EST
    ...you can take the boy out of Iowa, but you can never get the Polack out.  

    Heck, I grew up in the bowling alley as Mom was (is) in just about every league there was.  As soon as I could walk, I had a ball in my hands.  

    Parent

    There is a new bowling (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:13:23 PM EST
    venue in East Village here near Petco Park.  3 lanes, a bar, billiards, outside bar tables.  Only downside:  permit requires all liquor be off the outside tables by 10:00 p.m.  Why?  denizens of downtown (presumably not the young, single condo folks) grab the glasses off the table!

    Parent
    Sorry Mile. Didn't mean to offend. (none / 0) (#19)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:30:03 PM EST
    I've spent a lot of time around the bowling alley myself. I bowled a lot of leagues. Just was never any good at it.

    Parent
    Not to worry... (none / 0) (#36)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:51:59 PM EST
    ...its all good.  

    I can work-up a pretty good sweat when I'm bowling games by myself, so there must be some sort of athleticism involved somewhere...

    Parent

    You sure all that sweat isn't... (none / 0) (#42)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:59:46 PM EST
    from all the beer?  Darn it -- there I go again. Sorry. I enjoyed bowling the leagues, especially during beer frames.

    Parent
    Pretty sure... (none / 0) (#44)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:03:22 PM EST
    ...since I don't drink :).  If only smokes were as easy to give up as the demon alcohol was.

    Parent
    As a footnote here, they are hard to give up. (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:23:00 PM EST
    Motivations to quit can be surprising, however. Several years ago my wife and I decided to quit. We decided it best for one to go first and the other to follow six months or so later. Otherwise we would have been at each other's throats and a divorce would have undoubtedly ensued. She went first and was successful. Well I didn't keep my end of the deal. Six months, a year and then two years elapsed and I was still smoking. I just didn't want to give it up -- I enjoyed it. That was until one day when we got into a heated discussion over something (I don't recall what, probably something trivial)and out of nowhere came her voice of displeasure about me reneging on our deal. She remarked, "well, your failure there is just another good example that you are are so much weaker than me on so many fronts." Ooh, that stung: it was on from that point. I wanted to prove her wrong so, I quit that same evening and haven't had another. Its been eight months now. I later realized that she had sort of leveraged me into quitting. You know what, it worked.      

    Parent
    For me... (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:59:40 PM EST
    ...being colon deficient, a lot of it is self-medicating as nicotine does have properties that help those with digestive issues such as mine.  

    Plus, living alone, I don't have anyone to shame me into quitting.  I do remember trying to quit with the SO, and it does tend to make life difficult!

    Parent

    Wow, To heck with the smokes (none / 0) (#72)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:03:09 PM EST
    -- how's that marriage going?!

    Parent
    Couldn't be greater... (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:13:51 PM EST
    I just wasn't about to let her get another one up on me. She's already got enough as it is, dammit. She has a masters degree, I have a bachelors; She drives a Mustang, I drive an Escort; She's a few years younger, etc. You see where this is going? I had to draw a line in the sand and say "no more." All kidding aside, we've had 25 good years of marriage.  

    Parent
    In college (none / 0) (#126)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 06:36:16 PM EST
    I was on the Ultimate Frisbee team (really!) with the biggest bunch of stoners you ever saw, although I personally did not partake.  These guys were great athletes, but they didn't put a big premium on showing up to practice in a substance-free state, if you follow me.  Every once in a while a perfectly-thrown disc would just sail by someone and they'd just kind of shrug, like oh, was I supposed to catch that?

    Parent
    Especially if they get hit (none / 0) (#8)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:12:01 PM EST
    with the side effects of so many prescriptions and other "aids."  Even the over-the-counter ones can cause interactions and other problems.  There is need for all these exorbitant taxes to be put into research for really safe quitting aids.  

    Parent
    Hey, one of my off-spring (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:28:39 PM EST
    as quit cold turkey numerous times!

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:31:43 PM EST
    From what I have observed quitting is easy, several of my friends have done it thousands of times.

    Parent
    Technically doesn't one quit every time (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:33:28 PM EST
    they snub one out?

    Parent
    Yeh. But every time quitting (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:32:30 PM EST
    is good -- or as they say, "good practice."


    Parent
    Mulitiple quits? (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by ding7777 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:38:51 PM EST
    Probably as beneficial to the body as the yo-yo diet

    Parent
    Yes, studies also show that (none / 0) (#74)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:05:18 PM EST
    just like the bounce effect of bad dieting, the cold-turkey quitting of smoking can mean (i.e., for some) that when smoking is resumed, as it usually is, it means smoking more than before.

    Parent
    I Knoooowwwww! (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:17:45 PM EST
    Let's sell an addictive substance.....get people addicted to it, then tax them on it....

    YAYYY!

    For that rationale alone, I'm not sure why they don't legalize heroin.

    I don't smoke, but I bite my nails.  I've bitten my nails since I can remember.  I think I came out of the womb biting my nails.  It's not a nervous habit, it's just a habit.  If I were taxed on it, I couldn't quit.

    Our freaking nanny state.

    But again (none / 0) (#21)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:32:16 PM EST
    States are not paying out hundreds of millions of dollars in health care for people who bite their nails or for people who work near where lots of people bite their nails. This is a case where personal freedom takes a back seat to public health (and public coffers).

    According to the CDC, costs associated with tobacco include:

       
    •  Annually, cigarette smoking costs more than $193 billion ($97 billion in lost productivity and $96 billion in health care expenditures).

    • Health care costs associated with exposure to secondhand smoke average $10 billion annually.

    • In 2005, the latest year with available data, the cigarette industry spent almost $13.4 billion, or more than $36 million per day, on advertising and promotional expenses.

    • States spend less than 3% of the $24.9 billion available to them from tobacco excise taxes and tobacco industry legal settlements on preventing and controlling tobacco use. Investing only 17% of these funds would allow every state tobacco control program to be funded at CDC-recommended minimum levels.


    Parent
    Haven't you heard? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:44:28 PM EST
    Cigarette smoking is every bit as harmless as chewing your fingernails!

    Parent
    Not to mention... (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 08:19:43 PM EST
    equally as harmful to human health as perfume!

    Parent
    How much money do states and Feds (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by bocajeff on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:45:13 PM EST
    save on decreased spending on Social Security, Medicare, etc... due to those who smoke, you know, dying early and not collecting funds that would be due to them? Somehow that figure always gets lost in this debate...

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#32)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:47:44 PM EST
    There are also people who are paying INTO SS and paying taxes who die from tobacco-related diseases, and that figure is not counted either.

    Parent
    Fine... (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:48:54 PM EST
    then tax at .50 a pack...not over a buck.

    It's called being reasonable....in no universe can the tax on tobacco be considered reasonable...especially in tax happy blue states who add their own obscene vig.

    Not that I buy that 10 billion number for a second...how do they differntiate between second-hand smoke and all the other unhealthy crap in the air we breathe?  It's junk science with an agenda.

    Parent

    I think (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:04:39 PM EST
    they look at people who work or live in areas with heavy smoking and compare them to people who don't work or live with smokers (such as bartenders).

    And no - I don't like all taxes, but I think when innocent people directly suffer because other people choose to exercise their right to smoke or drink or ride a motorcycle without a helmet or take drugs or whatever, then those people should have to pay more. Think of it as a cover charge.  I don't disagree with your right to pursue your vices, but when others have to pay for it directly (in the form of their own compromised health if they worked in a bar, for instance), or indirectly because doctor's fees and insurance rates are higher because some people engage in pursuit of their vices, then, yes, I think you should pay some of the costs up front. What's the old saying?  "Your rights only extend to the end of your nose."

    People also argue about fast foods and fatty foods.  Fair point.  But the difference is, you can tell a fat person to go on a diet, but they still have to eat (and fruit and vegetables are way more expensive than processed foods).  There is no reason anyone needs to start smoking, or take drugs, or ride without a helmet or seatbelt.

    I'm not trying to argue with you, but I don't think it's as black and white as saying "My smoking doesn't hurt you."

    Parent

    But it doesn't hurt you... (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:17:42 PM EST
    anymore than your car hurts me at least.  I can't smoke anywhere besides outdoors, my car, and my house.

    I mean you have to accept some enviromental danger on planet earth, otherwise go live in a bubble.

    I'll grant you the need for some tax, at least grant me that the taxes have become excessive.

    Parent

    Denial is a river in Egypt (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by shoephone on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:36:04 PM EST
    Kdog - you continue to theorize that your smoking doesn't cause anyone else harm. But this has been covered ad nauseum. Second-hand smoke is not a figment of the imagination. It is dangerous for children and anyone with respiratory conditions, like asthma.

    So even when you are smoking outside, if you are within five feet of me and the wind is blowing my way, I'm getting hit with your smoke.

    We all get that you love your cigarettes and that you think the government is playing fascist with you. Your stubborness is your right. But I've watched loved ones die of lung cancer, heart disease and kidney disease -- more horrible than I care to describe. I sincerely hope you do not get any of the numerous diseases associated with cigarette smoking because, regardless of your vows to the contrary, your life won't feel like much at that point. But in the meantime, face the fact: your second-hand smoke is a danger to the health of others.

    Parent

    You face facts... (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:56:24 PM EST
    your car exhaust is a danger to others, your breath can be dangerous to others, your perfume could cause an allergic reaction, your peanuts the same, your farts are dangerous to the ozone layer, and your attitude is dangerous to a free society.

    Life is dangerous...try to legislate it all away through excessive taxes and prohibitions and I don't think any of us will be happy.

    Parent

    Let's make it simple: (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:07:04 PM EST
    I want you to pay directly for making my life more dangerous. I ask the same of other polluters.

    Parent
    What about your car?...n/t (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:08:33 PM EST
    I don't have one (none / 0) (#78)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:10:12 PM EST
    If I did, I would expect to have to insure against the damage I might, and to pay gas taxes.

    Parent
    Do you ride a bus?.... (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:14:23 PM EST
    Buses really kill...guess which part of NYC has the highest rate of childhood asthma...the area in the Bronx by the big bus depot.  

    Where is the 50% or more tax rate on a bus ride?  Don't we care about the kids?

    Parent

    You better believe (none / 0) (#85)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:19:22 PM EST
    that the MTA pays gas taxes and is insured, and that those costs are routinely passed on to riders.

    I think it would be interesting to see if the MTA had a tort duty in that regard.

    Parent

    Many Run on Natural Gas (none / 0) (#90)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:22:45 PM EST
    Zero pollution. More to come. In fact if Bloomberg wanted to win my vote, I am no fan, he would make every city and state owned vehicle run on either electricity or natural gas.

    Parent
    Asthma (none / 0) (#99)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 03:00:56 PM EST
    is really big in the Pacific Northwest. We don't have a disproportinate number of smokers to blame, we have flowers and beautiful trees attacking those with sensitive lungs. Deadly. My BIL's father died from a spring pollen asthma attack.


    Parent
    We better tax ourselves out of this... (none / 0) (#102)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 03:16:36 PM EST
    pollen problem asap.

    Not to make light of your family's loss Inspector...my condolences.  

    Parent

    It simply gets to a level where (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 05:11:06 PM EST
    one has to realize that everything in the world is deadly to a certain number of people. Balloons are a choking hazard, but who wouldn't make sure there were tons of them at their child's birthday party?

    All the studies in the world won't convince me that second hand smoke has enough of anything left in it to hurt anyone within range. All that is in the lungs of the person who took the 1st hand drag.

    I quit many years ago and sympathize greatly with anyone who wants to quit but is having a horrible time doing so, and understand completely those who enjoy the habit and have no interest in ending their pleasure.

    Parent

    Really? (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 05:19:03 PM EST
    Service people who never smoked in bars and restaurants were taking on over a pack a day from second hand smoke. And then there are the children:

    While adults can try to avoid smoky areas, children and infants cannot and are therefore especially vulnerable. Studies show that babies whose parents smoke are admitted twice as often to the hospital for conditions such as bronchitis and pneumonia. Children under age 2 are particularly susceptible because their lungs and immune systems are not yet fully developed and being exposed to second-hand smoke can hinder lung development.

    Children exposed to second-hand smoke have more symptoms of respiratory irritation like cough, excess phlegm and wheezing. Every year second-hand smoke is responsible for between 150,000 and 300,000 lower-respiratory-tract infections in infants and children under the age of 18 months, resulting in between 7,500 and 15,000 hospitalizations.

    link


    Parent

    Probably a good thing you don't (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:22:17 PM EST
    have a car if you are really worried about air pollution.  Filling up your gas tank is far more dangerous and carcinogenic than a passing waft of cigarette smoke is.  And don't get me started on diesel fumes a good portion of which in my urban area comes from public transportation buses.  The interesting thing is that the incidence of lung cancer is going up not down even though the number of people smoking is declining.  If we put a fraction of the energy we put into tobacco polllution into other areas, we'd be doing a whole lot more good for more people.  But DuPont et al, the big three and big oil are all very happy that it was RJ Reynolds that became the sacrificial lamb instead of any of them.

    Parent
    If RJ Reynolds is a "sacrificial lamb" (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:24:08 PM EST
    I don't feel very sorry for it.

    Parent
    No one is asking you to feel sorry (5.00 / 4) (#97)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:42:51 PM EST
    for it.

    But the point is that the focus on tobacco to the exclusion of all else is basically folly.

    I was driving up to NYC a couple of summers ago right around the time the New Jersey legislature had passed some smoking ban or another - on the Turnpike right around Cherry Hill - and the air was so thick with that acrid chemical smell that poor Jersey eliminated for a while and then re-instated under the Bush EPA's lax oversight - and all I could think was how ironic it was that the people of New Jersey thought they were cutting down on their chances of getting lung cancer because someone else that they were rarely if ever exposed to anymore was smoking - meanwhile they were inhaling and absorbing the most foul tasting and eye stinging air I'd had the displeasure of encountering in years.

    So if it makes you feel better - okay - but it probably isn't going to actually ensure that you are physically better given how much really carcinogenic stuff you're exposed to on a daily basis.

    Parent

    Thanks for making sense inclusiveheart... (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 03:32:05 PM EST
    I was beginning to think I was crazy...this has nothing to do with the "public health".

    Parent
    I think this whole anti-smoking (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:21:05 PM EST
    thing is a classic bait and switch.

    Given the extent to which prohibitions on smoking in public have been enacted at this point, I fail to see how this debate can legitimately continue to proceed as a public health argument - unless of course we all want to be prohibitionists because there are an awful lot of things we can tell other people not to do.

    Meanwhile DuPont et al, the big three and big oil among others get a free pass on poisoning an entire nation - and there is simply NO WAY that we can avoid their toxins - hell with acid rain we can't even count on retreating into the wilderness as a way of protecting ourselves.  So they're killing me and the vast majority of public health initiatives coming out in this country in this era are discussions about preventing people from having the choice to smoke tobacco, eat sugar, eat meat, ride a bike without a helmet etc. as if they're the only ones who get to decide how you live and die.  I have a problem with that.

    Of course, I am an anti-prohibitionist and I don't believe that laws addressing individual personal behaviors are efficacious.  I think broader policy changes like giving people access to healthcare and giving people an environment that is trully free of carcinegenic toxins that they can't see, smell or taste like they could a cigarette or a nearby smoker would be a far more effective health policy.  At least with cigarettes you have a choice.  There is a whole world of pollutants that are just as if not more dangerous that you simply cannot avoid in our environment.  And the reality is that all the major stakeholders will try to keep it that way - they've done a fabulous job of making sure that the studies of the effects of their products could fit into my back pocket while the studies on cigarettes pile up in warehouse upon warehouse.

    My Grandfather died of liver cancer.  His was not metasticized which is a form of liver cancer that less than 1% of liver cancer patients have.  He grew roses in the south.  He had 300 rose bushes that I did my best to tend to during the time I cared for him when he was dying.  He used a chemical on those bushes once a week for 10-15 years that killed a certain kind of mold.  I went out with all the gear and followed all the procedures in using that chemical to treat the bushes so that they wouldn't die before him.  

    After only getting part way through the treatment, I had to stop.  I was nauseated, my skin was crawling/itching, I felt awful.  I got into the shower and spent over an hour trying to catch my breat and get the chemical off of me.  I suspect that had he been in California it would have been a carcinogen.  But as this was in Florida it was not.  I talked to his doctor who didn't want a thing to do with investigating my theory.  As this was the pre-internet age there were few ways for me to investigate and contact people.  I met one of the reps at the garden store too and the minute I asked about the danger of the chemical he went ashen white and changed the subject.  That is when I really started to look at and think about the "safe" chemicals that are all around us.

    I'd have a lot more respect for the anti-tobacco lobby if they broadened their scope, but they haven't and probably have no intention of doing so even either - that would mean they'd have to admit that there are a whole host of things far more deadly than a person smoking in their own house away from anyone else.

    Parent

    So, (none / 0) (#104)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 03:56:13 PM EST
    you honestly believe, in your heart of hearts, that breathing in and exhaling things (which others then breathe in) like arsenic, benzene (a chemical found in gasoline), beryllium (a toxic metal), nickel, polonium-210 (a chemical element that gives off radiation), cadmium (a metal used in batteries), to name a few of the 4000 chemicals found in cigarette smoke, does not in any way affect public health?

    Parent
    I don't have a problem (none / 0) (#107)
    by Bemused on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:11:26 PM EST
      with taxes premised on social utility. Many things pollute (or cause other harms)  but for at least most of them you can also argue substantial social utility.

      Smoking, if you want to be creative, might have the social utility of calming the nerves of people who otherwise might be more annoying. Beyond that it's hard to argue much of anyting good tobacco contributes to society.

      I say tax the hell out of it. I have more of a problem with laws that forbid owners of private establishments from allowing smoking. Some like offices and retail stores I can accept because some people who don't want to be exposed might have to enter. No one has to enter a particular bar or a restaurant and those who don't like it can go to a different bar or restaurant. If employees don't want to work in a smoky environment, work elsewhere. If delivery people and the like don't like it tell the owner they won't deliver.

       I smoked for years. From colege when I took it up in self-defense because all the smoky hovels were more bearable if I was smoking too, until my wife got pregnant and forbid me from smoking in my house or car because she didn't want to be exposed to second-hand smoke,  and shamed me into not  only not setting a bad example for our children but not even exposing them to residue on my clothes and hair, etc.

      I know how difficult it is to quit and it is regressive. It will fall more heavily on the less well to do both relative to income and because stats show a higher proportion of the less affluent smoke. Despite that, I find it among the least objectionable taxes.

    Parent

    well actually (none / 0) (#158)
    by Bemused on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 12:14:01 PM EST
     this makes them pay indirectly and in a manner not at all certain to actually ameliorate the dangerousness of your life resulting from them smoking.

      How about every smoker who comes with 15 feet of a non-smoker has to pay that person a quarter. That would be direct and you could use your share for a gas mask.

    Parent

    well, actually (none / 0) (#159)
    by Bemused on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 12:15:19 PM EST
    this makes them pay indirectly and in a manner not at all certain to actually ameliorate the dangerousness of your life resulting from them smoking.
      How about every smoker who comes with 15 feet of a non-smoker has to pay that person a quarter. That would be direct and you could use your share for a gas mask.

    Parent
    Perfume (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by Jen M on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 03:01:28 PM EST
    AAAUGGH

    Worst then bright lights when I have a migraine. I can barely breathe and the PAIN.

    I hate perfume.

    Parent

    So let me ask you this (none / 0) (#73)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:04:31 PM EST
    In all honesty and curiosity....

    Say we get rid of all "sin taxes" and legalize drugs. Great for individual freedoms (except of course for the non-smokers injured by second-hand smoke).  God forbid, sometime in the future, you get some horrible disease from the smoking and/or mj. As a person who wants government out of these personal decisions, would you then be ok if you are 65 years old and the government said, "We will not cover any health-related issues that can be tied to smoking tobacco or smoking mj," (and that includes Medicare or any future government health initiative)?

    Parent

    I'll sign a waiver.... (none / 0) (#79)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:12:11 PM EST
    if it will get the taxman off my back, hell yeah.  I value liberty.

    But to be clear I'm not against a resonable rate of taxation on tobacco...10% of the retail price, heck even 20%....not 50% or more.  It's not the taxes, everything has taxed tacked on it...it is the rate I have a problem with.

    I don't know about the fed, but right now NY State is making more per pack than the producer...that's just wrong anyway you slice it.

    Parent

    Not if the public policy goals behind it (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:14:56 PM EST
    are valid. Do you think that gas tax rates in Europe are too high?

    Parent
    What public policy goals? (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:22:10 PM EST
    Getting people to quit?  I don't think that is a concern of government.  Keeping young people from starting?  That's the job of parents, again not the place of government.  Paying for healthcare?  The most valid of the 3, but better and more just to spread it out amongst anything that adversely effects healthcare costs...junk food (50% Big Mac Tax), lack of excercise (1 dollar every day you don't excercise), living too long (5 bucks a day for everyday over 75), the list goes on.

    And yeah, of course gas taxes are too high in Europe...taxes are too high pretty much everywhere in the Western world, with the out of control governemt spending the excessive taxation enables....and still they run debts.

    Why is it always "need more taxes" and never "need less spending"?...thats what I'd really like to know.

    Parent

    One you don't name (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:26:43 PM EST
    is to get smokers to pay for the foreseeable damage that they cause.

    But clearly you have a different (I would say Republican) philosophy of government--one that I don't share.

    Parent

    Republican? (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:35:59 PM EST
    More like libertarian bordering on anarchy...Republicans love big govt., crazy debt, and tyranny just as much as D's, despite their claims to the contrary.

    And yeah, I don't think I'd be happy in your utopia, and you wouldn't be happy in mine...but fear not, we're closer to yours, you win:)

    Parent

    Definitely (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 08:04:20 PM EST
    I see little difference behind the core philosophies of republicans and libertarians.

    Libertarianism, in particular, seems to me to be based fundamentally on selfishness - just let me do whatever the heck I want regardless of its effect on others, the planet, whatever. There is simply no concept of common good - much like republicans with there disdain for regulation.

    Parent

    The greatest common good... (none / 0) (#148)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 09:40:36 AM EST
    is individual liberty, free people are happier people, free people are less violent...big government nanny state people always leave out that common good.

    Parent
    It's easier (none / 0) (#151)
    by Bemused on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 10:02:21 AM EST
     to recognize the virtues of liberty when you are speaking from a vantage point atop a centuries old society whose collective efforts have built an environment in which you can easily obtain the necessities of life and some non-essentials.

      Living in any society necessarily requires some sacrifice of individual autonomy. I think most people, even you, would agree that some degree of relinquishment of autonomy is beneficial to not just society generally but you as an individual within society.

      Do you really think  you would be happier being totally free AND totally self-reliant?

    Parent

    Sure... (none / 0) (#155)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 11:46:34 AM EST
    I realize my libertarian utopia may well be a disaster in practice, and that a balance must be struck between individual liberty and  restrictions essential to a functioning society, I just think we've gone to far with the restrictions...the state needs to lay off for awhile...maybe we need a legislation tax or something to slow them down:)

    We're over-legislated, over-taxed, and under served from my vantage point.  We're surrendering autonomy to a bloated bueracracy for too little benefit, imo.  The state has gotta show a little more need for the restrictions on individual liberty and self-determination, and the high taxes, before they go restricting and taxing up the wazoo.  

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#157)
    by Bemused on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 12:10:20 PM EST
      " a balance must be struck...." I actually believe almost everyone in western civilization agrees in the abstract. There is just vast differences in opinion as to both the weights assigned various liberties vs. restrictions and even where the fulcrum should be located.

      I think we are over-regulated in some areas and under-regulated in others. On the whole, I agree we have a greater number of and more extensive restrictions with which I take issue than instances of under-gegulation or too much freedom.

      I do think that some of the areas of "under-regulation" though are very serious (e.g. environmental issues, financial markets...)

    Parent

    So you say (none / 0) (#153)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 11:22:46 AM EST
    free people are happier people, free people are less violent...

    I'm sure you have plenty of 'junk science' to back up that assertion.

    Parent

    So you're saying... (none / 0) (#154)
    by kdog on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 11:32:55 AM EST
    people are happier when they are less free...ok Molly.

    Parent
    No, I'm saying the obvious. (none / 0) (#156)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 12:06:24 PM EST
    Your unfettered 'freedom' can be defined differently by different people, and does not necessarily simplistically equate to 'free people are happier people'. Your freedom to smoke makes others unhappy and potentially ill. One person's freedom to ride their polluting destructive ATV's through the wilderness makes them happy, but someone else who values wilderness and the preservation of the planet becomes unhappy. One person's 'god-given right' to drive while under the influence of drugs or alcohol is a tad inconvenient to the person they may kill or injure while doing so.

    Please stop pretending the centuries-old debate about where individual rights intersect with the common good is a simplistic, black-and-white equation.

    Parent

    Look to the science (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by jeniferea on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:44:03 PM EST
    They can differentiate the effects of second hand smoke from all the other toxic substances in the air by measuring the levels of cotinine, a nicotine metabolite, in blood, saliva or urine of people. So, yeah, it's actually super easy to do if you, use, you know, science.  

    The fact of the matter is that there are respected studies that support significant taxes on exposures like smoking as valid and effective public health measures.  And the magnitude of the tax increase will have less impact on current smokers, but will significantly deter teens from starting to smoke.

    Parent

    This is far too rational for most (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 08:05:21 PM EST
    They'll just call it 'junk science' and go on making sh!t up that conforms to their opinions.

    Parent
    So I'll employ the slippery slope argument (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:21:52 PM EST
    We need to tax potato chips too, then.

    I'm sure I don't need to expand on that thought.

    People do harmful things every day and somebody else often pays for it.

    We're talking about an ADDICTIVE substance here.  If you want people to stop, maybe it should be illegalized.  Not taxed.

    Of course, they'd never make this addictive substance illegal.  Think of all the revenue they'd lose.

    Parent

    Most of us who support higher cig taxes (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:24:23 PM EST
    do not think that cigarettes either can or should be banned.

    Parent
    Ah, but we are paying (none / 0) (#25)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:35:42 PM EST
    for all those colds and their complications that come, so other studies say, from putting fingers into or even near their mouths after touching nasty stuff that is everywhere around us.

    We need a tax on every #@@#$! cough in my face, too.  And a tax deduction for those of us who at least get flu and pneumonia shots to help stop them spread.

    Parent

    I'm ok with that! (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:41:07 PM EST
    I love winter here in DC - I ride the Metro, so it's an excuse to wear gloves when I have to touch the "hold-on" bars!  :)

    Parent
    I don't think there is a tax... (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:50:42 PM EST
    you and andgarden met that you didn't like jb.

    Maybe I've got the wrong impression, but you two seem to think the answer for everything is more taxes, more central planning, and more nanny-state government.  You guys scare me:)

    Parent

    What scares me is the (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:56:24 PM EST
    reaction this thread is getting over the level of attention being given to the post on the Patriot Act.


    Parent
    I am fine with the government (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:59:18 PM EST
    using tax policy to protect the public from others' harmful emissions.  If it's too expensive for you, stop causing the damage.

    Parent
    I still don't understand why Soda companies (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by of1000Kings on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:12:22 PM EST
    and fast food joints get a free pass on this...

    I can't imagine how much extra stress is put on the system by people GIVING THEMSELVES heart disease and diabetes...

    why the free pass?

    and don't say it's about second-hand smoke...b/c this tax doesn't address that, all the regulations about where one can smoke already address that issue...

    Parent

    Two responses (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:20:02 PM EST
    First, you probably could do a junk food tax. The problem is that while you have to eat to live, you do not have to smoke (indeed, you should not smoke), and it can be difficult to classify exactly what junk food is. Peanut butter is probably the best example: it is the classic inferior good; it is very high in fat, protein, and calories, which means that it's a double-edged sword.

    And you have not successfully eliminated second hand smoke as a reason for increasing tobacco taxes. It is possible to have more than one law or regulation intended to fox a social problem at the same time.

    Parent

    All your precious tax policy did... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:20:08 PM EST
    was drive me to the black market and the native american market.

    You had a good thing going...ya blew it by getting greedy.

    Parent

    If you are evading taxes, then there are other (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:22:48 PM EST
    penalties. It's not about greed, it's about discouraging smoking, and if that's not possible, insuring against the damage that smoking inevitably causes to society.

    Parent
    So What's The Problem (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:25:57 PM EST
    Supporting your local tribe seems a good thing. About time you made the switch.

    Parent
    Amen... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:27:44 PM EST
    probably for the best....it's just the principle, ya know?  And the nerve.

    Parent
    My last one was (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Jen M on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:26:28 PM EST
    20 Dec 1996

    But who's counting.

    The price of cigarettes these days is frightening!  The ever expanding no smoking areas is bsd. Pretty soon people will ignore ALL no smoking signs, and I can't blame them.

    I quit almost 8 years ago (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by scribe on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:34:41 PM EST
    after having been a pack-a-day smoker for a large chunk of the preceding almost-20 years.

    I'd smoked Marlboro Reds (sometimes with the filter cut down), Luckies, Camels (yuck), Gauloises and then went to Marlboro Lights.

    The last time I quit, I went cold turkey.  I was hell on wheels for about 3 days  and then ... that was it.  It takes about a year for the crap to work its way out of your lungs and nasal passages, and about 5 years until the chemical influence has finally worked its way out of your system.

    Last night was poker night and some of the players worked their way through a couple cigars each in the course of the evening.  Didn't bother me a bit.

    The point is:  you won't quit until you're done with them and a world's worth of preaching, cajoling, yelling, hypnosis, Nicorette (TM) and whatever else won't change that.

    Ugh, Cigars. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:40:07 PM EST
    Yeh, I've been around the people who say they quit smoking but still are puffing on stinky cigars, pipes, etc.

    An uncle of mine was a longtime cigar smoker -- and died of ugly jaw cancer, when we saw the stats on the connection.  But the anti-tobacco lobby's focus on cigarettes and lung cancer is uber alles and well-funded (and, medicos suggest, to the detriment of research needed on all of the other reasons why nonsmokers die of lung cancer -- all the other carcinogens around us that we don't want to moralize or legislate against).

    Parent

    I don't see this as "nanny state" (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:53:07 PM EST
    tactics; if the government wanted to control whether people smoked or not, it would just ban the blasted things, and take them out of the stores and machines.  Yes, I know you all think that it's headed in that direction - what with the ban on smoking in buldings and the workplace, in bars and restaurants and possibly even in one's own car.  Hey, I don't care if you have a cigarette permanently affixed to you lips, just don't make me have to breathe the fumes, or go home smelling like I rolled in an ashtray.

    The tobacco companies make plenty of money selling to the overseas markets, so no great loss there.

    Taxes are all about plugging the gaps in revenue, as are increased fees to register a car, get all varieties of licenses - animal, boating, fishing, contracting, driver's - hey, in MD we even have a "flush tax" - a surcharge on sewer bills and on septic system owners; do you think the state was trying to get us to stop, um, eliminating?  No, this was about protecting the Chesapeake Bay from runoff.  And then, there's property tax, always a convenient place to find money - am I supposed to take that as a sign that I should not own property?

    Honestly, smoke or don't smoke - just stop whining about it; you're not the only victims of falling revenue, you know?

    Whining... (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:11:02 PM EST
    I love it...reaction to a 159% increase is whining.  You'd say nothing if the tax on something you enjoy jumped 159% in one day?  I doubt it.

    You're right its all about budget gaps, not kids or healthcare or benevolent concern....its about money. "Hit up the smokers", no one likes them.

    Parent

    How about the roll-your-own folks? (none / 0) (#70)
    by ding7777 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:58:55 PM EST
    they got hit with a 2173% tax increase

    Parent
    To my POV... (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:12:15 PM EST
    ...the only people "whining" here are the anti's.

    Parent
    Anne, (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by ding7777 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:06:04 PM EST
    thank goodness you weren't in Boston in 1773 where they were whining about the Tea Stamp Act.

    (tea is addictive and King George needed money to fight the French)  

    Parent

    Well, maybe it's time for the smokers (none / 0) (#83)
    by Anne on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:15:58 PM EST
    to revolt...

    Hey, if they decided to impose a special tax on chocolate, I could definitely get into some whining, and I'm sure I would feel put upon and singled out for some kind of punishment.  I would resent being forced to choose between my pocketbook and my bliss.

    And, as I have said before, taxes that purport to discourage the behavior that is being taxed suffer from the law of diminishing returns: as more people are discouraged from smoking, less revenue is collected, and as revenue goes down, the taxes go up - again and again and again.

    But darned if I know what the answer is.

    Parent

    Bad budgeting is not the answer (none / 0) (#88)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:22:16 PM EST
    for the reasons you note here -- and counting on revenue from soaring cig taxes in my state is one reason for the budgeting mess that we are in now.

    When the tax is for good public policy reasons, like more research on good ways to quite smoking or good ventilation systems for public places, etc., it can be worthwhile.

    When the tax is for bad public policy reasons, no amount of legislating or moralizing or demonizing can convince me that it somehow becomes good policy.

    Parent

    Yes Revolt (none / 0) (#91)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:23:59 PM EST
    If everyone quit smoking then the tax plan would fail, that would show them to mess with smokers.

    Parent
    And childrend would be without (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 03:15:14 PM EST
    healthcare.  This particular tax is pretty freakin' stupid in my opinion.

    Parent
    No cigs here, (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:59:28 PM EST
    but a decades-long infatuation with chewing tobaccy. Yep, the nasty stuff that you spit out. Except that it ain't so nasty.

    I can feel that rough texture between my cheek and gum right now...taste the Redman sweetness and spice...feel the little focus-sharpening wake-me-up buzz.

    It's been over 15 years now since I quit, albeit with a few days here and there of falling off the wagon.

    Odd that when I did fall off those few times, the satisfaction I expected to get from chewing again was always way higher than what I actually ended up getting.

    I miss it still. But hey, I miss dating too. And neither activity would be prudent for me now...

    Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. (none / 0) (#49)
    by scribe on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:12:09 PM EST
    Good old Day's Work. (none / 0) (#54)
    by scribe on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:18:57 PM EST
    A long-lost friend - most of those brands look like they stepped out of the late 19th Century.

    Cut plug will keep you up all night.  And most of the next day, too.

    Just don't knock over the spitoon.

    Parent

    Glad I never knew about all those brands (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:32:42 PM EST
    until now, I might never have quit!

    I was a Red Man guy. Plug sometimes, but mostly loose in the bag. Man, the smell, that sweet moist tobacco smell. I used to put my nose in the bag and just inhale.

    A friend used to sprinkle it on his dashboard, he liked the smell so much.

    In beer-drinking situations we used to use empty beer bottles to spit into. Forgetting which bottle was which was always a big faux pax...

    Parent

    Oh yeah (none / 0) (#114)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:58:23 PM EST
    That's a big party foul.  Especially if somone innocent gets the spitoon!  

    Parent
    I chewed plug once (none / 0) (#144)
    by Bemused on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 07:10:16 AM EST
     I was about 16 and one of my friends decided to buy some on our way to a weekend party at his farm (getting "authentic" I guess).

      We did not understand the difference between loose chew and plug and all loaded up with huge chaws. Never been so sick in my life and never tried any oral tobacco even snuff since.

    Parent

    Why do so many pot smokers (5.00 / 5) (#47)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:07:50 PM EST
    want cigarette smokers to stop smoking?

    And why would anyone who supports the legalization of pot cheer Obama on as he moves to make tobacco a controlled substance?

    Analogy (2.00 / 1) (#57)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:20:21 PM EST
    Is much like the repulsion many vegetarians have for eating steak tartare. Not sure why you would even be asking the question, the two products have nothing in common.

    Parent
    Heh. Funny n/t (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by inclusiveheart on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:31:34 PM EST
    Tobacco and MJ have (4.00 / 1) (#84)
    by ding7777 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:16:39 PM EST
    second hand smoke and carcinogens in common

     

    Parent

    Prove it. n/t (none / 0) (#86)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:20:33 PM EST
    Here's one (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by jbindc on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:33:38 PM EST
    What evidence is there about the link between second-hand marijuana smoke and cancer?

    In June 2002, a panel of experts brought together by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (an agency of the World Health Organization) determined that second-hand smoke causes cancer. And we know that marijuana and cigarette smoke contain as many as 50 of the same cancer causing substances. For these reasons, experts believe that exposure to second-hand marijuana smoke is at least as harmful as second-hand tobacco smoke.

    Link

    Parent

    Newer Study (4.00 / 1) (#98)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:46:02 PM EST
    In this study, the mystery in sorting out the effect of Tobacco and MJ because many smoke both, was sorted out. Seems like a no brainer to me.

    Four groups: non smokers, MJ smokers, MJ & tobacco smokers, tobacco smokers.

    The lowest cancer group was the MJ smokers.

    Parent

    Well, to be fair, (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:08:27 PM EST
    mj does does have a lot of carcinogens - more than cigs, in fact:
    The study also suggests that marijuana contains more than 50% more of the chemicals related to lung cancer than cigarettes
    however, mj may help prevent those carcinogens from initiating cancer:
    a chemical inside marijuana called THC may prevent cancer from developing.


    Parent
    "Suggests"... (2.00 / 1) (#109)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:24:10 PM EST
    ...does not constitute proof in any way, shape or form.  Also interesting that there is no listing of these chemicals--and that there is no link to the actual study itself.  But, not surprising since the article is from ask.com by an uncredentialed author.

    Simply put, MJ does not contain the additives that tobacco does and the burning of anything releases chemicals that can be harmful.  From a campfire to petrochemicals...    

    Parent

    OK, (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:56:27 PM EST
    from the National Institutes of Health
    Effects on the Lungs
    Numerous studies have shown marijuana smoke to contain carcinogens and to be an irritant to the lungs. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke. Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which further increases the lungs' exposure to carcinogenic smoke. Marijuana smokers show dysregulated growth of epithelial cells in their lung tissue, which could lead to cancer;8 however, a recent case-controlled study found no positive associations between marijuana use and lung, upper respiratory, or upper digestive tract cancers.9 Thus, the link between marijuana smoking and these cancers remains unsubstantiated at this time.

    Nonetheless, marijuana smokers can have many of the same respiratory problems as tobacco smokers, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illness, a heightened risk of lung infections, and a greater tendency toward obstructed airways. A study of 450 individuals found that people who smoke marijuana frequently but do not smoke tobacco have more health problems and miss more days of work than nonsmokers.10 Many of the extra sick days among the marijuana smokers in the study were for respiratory illnesses.

    WebMD:
    Oct. 17, 2005 -- Although tobacco smoke and marijuana smoke are chemically very similar, a new report argues that their cancer-causing effects may be very different.

    Both tobacco and cannabis smoke contain the same cancer-causing compounds (carcinogens). Depending on what part of the plant is smoked, marijuana can contain more of these harmful ingredients.

    But a recent review of studies on the effects of marijuana and tobacco smoke suggests that the cancer-promoting effects of these ingredients is increased by the tobacco in nicotine and reduced by the tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) found in cannabis.

    Medscape:
    We know that there are as many or more carcinogens and co-carcinogens in marijuana smoke as in cigarettes, researcher Donald Tashkin, MD, of UCLAs David Geffen School of Medicine tells WebMD. But we did not find any evidence for an increase in cancer risk for even heavy marijuana smoking. Carcinogens are substances that cause cancer.

    Tashkin presented the findings today at The American Thoracic Societys 102nd International Conference, held in San Diego.

    Plenty more available by google...

    Parent
    I don't know many (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Patrick on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 05:01:41 PM EST
    people who are smoking 20 joints a day, while I know many people who smoke that many cigarettes or more per day.  Perhaps that's the missing link.  Could you imagine how baked you would be?  Even 20 pinners.....  

    Parent
    When you enter in to a study... (2.00 / 1) (#128)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 07:40:16 PM EST
    ...with one of your over-all guiding principles being "drugs are bad, mmmkay", its hard to keep that bias out of the research.  

    Was the a control group for each type of ingestion (pipe v. water pipe v. vaporizor)?  

    Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which further increases the lungs' exposure to carcinogenic smoke.
     

    Hardly sounds like proven scientific fact to me.  Not to mention the fact it doesn't address the quantity smoked in comparision to cigarettes.

    Lots of speculation and presumption in each of these studies, IMO.  

    Parent

    And you do not think there is any (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by inclusiveheart on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 08:42:51 AM EST
    bias at all in tobacco studies?

    The depth and breadth (and redundancy frankly) of tobacco studies is amazing when more people on average are exposed to emissions from PET bottles that water, "nutritonal" drinks and sodas are sold in.  Very few studies have been done on the effects of those emissions.  So technically they are "safe" and yet there are people who claim that they really may not be.

    Anyhow, a prohibitionist attitude towards tobacco and an insistence on denying that there are any negative effects of pot smoking undermines many of the good arguments in favor of pot legalization.

    Parent

    Please do... (none / 0) (#149)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 09:49:21 AM EST
    ...point me to anything that indicates "an insistence on denying that there are negative effects of pot smoking".  

    Like I said upthread, burning (and inhaling) of any substance is harmful.  

    Parent

    Flailing wildly, IMO. (none / 0) (#142)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 12:41:53 AM EST
    From stash.norml.org
    Smoke from tobacco and cannabis contains many of the same carcinogens and tumor promoters [20,21]. However, cannabis and tobacco have additional pharmacological activities... that result in different biological endpoints. ...[D]espite potentially higher levels of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons found in cannabis smoke compared to tobacco smoke (dependent on what part of the plant is smoked), the THC present in cannabis smoke should exert a protective effect against pro-carcinogens that require activation.


    Parent
    is your problem in (none / 0) (#160)
    by Bemused on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 12:20:47 PM EST
    "Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which further increases the lungs' exposure to carcinogenic smoke."

    with the assertion marijuana smokers usually inhale more deeply and hold it longer or with the non-scientific fact that holding smoke in your lungs  for a longer period of time will increase absoorption?

    Parent

    It would seem to be (none / 0) (#118)
    by Bemused on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 05:18:37 PM EST
    simple common sense that inhaling the byproducts of combustion ain't good for you. Whehter it's pretochemical, wood, tobacco, marijuana or whatever it's a matter of degress as to which is worse for you.

    Here is a study which should disabuse anyne of the notion marijuana is harmless

    link

       That's a lot of chemicals you know can't be good for you in marijuana smoke.

      That said, smoking tobacco is obviously worse for your lungs than smoking marijuana. It is correlated with lung cancer and the lack of a correlation with lung cancer and marijuana is significant, thugh it may be correlated with other cancers.

     While people might inhale marijuana deeper and hold it  longer, very few people who smoke marijuana consume the quantities that many cigarette smokers consume. That study also was comparing inhaled smoke composition from cigarettes, and a lot of marijuana smokers use water pipes which obviously trap something if you've ever seen a bong that isn't regularly cleaned.

       

    Parent

    It would seem to be simple common sense (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 05:22:51 PM EST
    It would seem to be simple common sense that inhaling the byproducts of combustion ain't good for you.
    You'd think.

    Parent
    and yet we all do it everyday (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by of1000Kings on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 10:25:21 PM EST
    and then when Obama tries to do something about it with the cap-and-trade everyone (mostly Republicans) get into an uproar...

    ...or says that windmills are too ugly to put up, I'd rather just inhale combusted particles all day...

    Parent

    well, cap and trade (2.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Bemused on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 10:34:33 AM EST
     sounds a bit like bait and switch. "Commoditizing" pollution doesn't do anything actually reducing pollution. "Capping" doesn't actually reduce it either. At best, if --- and this an if many find hard to swallow--- the caps are not subject to the prevailing political winds they might prevent as rapid an increase in pollution as in their absence.

      That's really not much for people who really care about the environment rather than appealing to the more trusting of those people to rally around.

    Parent

    Not True (none / 0) (#94)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 02:30:23 PM EST
    In fact MJ has been shown to be a cancer prophylactic.

    Parent
    Quit smoking (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by SOS on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 05:45:08 PM EST
    now and a child won't get the health care this tax is going to cover.

    I mean you want a child to suffer or something?

    Reading Harper's Index (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by samtaylor2 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 06:10:37 PM EST
    And an interesting fact about MI cigarette tax is that it is one of the highest, but none of the tax goes to stopping people quitting or research.

    tax (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by chinspin2 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 08:53:23 PM EST
    So smoking is the biggest killer in the US? I think not! How about high blood pressure and diabetes and all the twinkies, doughnuts, chocolate, etc. that are the leading causes of illness, death and high medical expenses. Aren't we going to tax them as well?

    Nope, while I know it's not the best of habits (4.75 / 4) (#124)
    by vicndabx on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 05:56:12 PM EST
    it is my choice and is quite enjoyable.  Regarding all those opposed to smoking on public health policy grounds, why no tax on beach-goers?  I mean, skin cancer is much more prevalent than lung cancer.  Maybe these folks should go stand by the entrance to beach this summer w/a bucket and a bell like the salvation army people in the winter?  Let's ensure we all use strong enough sun-tan lotion!  Better yet, if you're too pale, like the soup nazi, no beach for you!

    A Drug (none / 0) (#1)
    by squeaky on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 11:54:48 AM EST
    WASHINGTON, April 1 (Reuters) - President Barack Obama strongly supports legislation that would give the U.S. Food and Drug Administration the power to regulate cigarettes, the White House said on Wednesday.

    The U.S. House of Representatives is scheduled to vote later Wednesday on the bill, which would authorize the FDA to oversee the multibillion-dollar tobacco industry, including its advertisements and product designs.

    Reuters

    Next stop MJ

    Pfft. No I'm not quitting (none / 0) (#5)
    by lilburro on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:08:15 PM EST
    I'll quit the day it's 10 dollars a pack - and even then, I'll probably just roll my own.  I don't think the (financial) cost of cigarettes will ever be the reason I quit.  On the upside, it's nice to know, hey, my habit will be helping kids.  I mean, if the extra tax has to go somewhere...

    Also that graphic is cute.

    Extremely windy in Manhattan (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by oculus on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:10:53 PM EST
    Monday.  As I was walking I saw a man huddled against a blg. trying to roll his cigarette.  Losing battle!

    Parent
    You're dreaming... (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:15:05 PM EST
    if you think this has anything to do with helping kids...it's all about the benjamins baby, and getting them from a sub-group people love to hate.

    I remember when my state said Lotto would save the schools...Ha!

    Parent

    That $1200 a night... (none / 0) (#6)
    by desertswine on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:09:02 PM EST
    could help pay for a poor Maldivian to move somewhere else.

    I've said my bit (none / 0) (#26)
    by andgarden on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:35:43 PM EST


    everyone is entited to a wrong opinion... (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by bocajeff on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:45:46 PM EST
    Opinions are fine (none / 0) (#38)
    by Inspector Gadget on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 12:53:33 PM EST
    judgments are not. The addiction to nicotine is something no one would purposely impose on themselves, and the hold it has is ferocious. It doesn't take too many cigarettes to establish the addiction.

    Parent
    Beg to differ Inspector... (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:01:57 PM EST
    I was well aware of the addictive nature of cigarettes and made a concious decision to smoke...so yes, I imposed addiction to nicotine on myself.

    No one is powerless to quit, some people just have willpower issues.  My mom quit cold-turkey after 30+ years.  My dad quit cold-turkey 6 months before he died in the midst of a suicidal acohol binge...which tells me anybody can quit once they commit fully to quitting...ya just need a little willpower to get through the first couple days of physical withdrawals.

    Shorter version, you just have to want to quit.

    Parent

    True enough (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:26:26 PM EST
    I want to quit TL but I can't.

    Tax me.

    Parent

    Your problem (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 08:06:35 PM EST
    is that your arguments are based on logic and reasons, andgarden!

    Parent
    Higher taxes won't work (none / 0) (#45)
    by KoolJeffrey on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 01:04:12 PM EST
    Even walking by nicotine addicts (and yes they are addicts in every sense of the word) in the smoking areas is an assault not only on my sense of smell, but on my health. There isn't a reason in the world that I should be exposed to that poisonous air at any time.

    For example, store workers who hang right outside the door are offensive to customers, and I tend not to buy from those retailers.

    The tax on cigarettes can't be high enough. Unfortunately it won't keep people from smoking one bit. If they are willing to sacrifice the health of themselves and others, then I am sure they won't mind paying more for their addiction.

    you must also agree that the taxes (none / 0) (#140)
    by of1000Kings on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 10:27:12 PM EST
    on energy companies can't be high enough...

    I know I agree with your sentiment...

    Parent

    So, antis, what about e-cigarettes? (none / 0) (#105)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 03:59:42 PM EST
    The electronic cigarettes that have nicotine for the addict (although it's the additives by the tobacco companies that are really addictive) but no smoke . . . so -- no secondhand smoke.

    What -- who -- is the real aim of the public policy here?  

    Hmm, interesting to extrapolate (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Cream City on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 06:42:01 PM EST
    the meaning of no replies. . . .

    Parent
    No smoke (none / 0) (#147)
    by jbindc on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 09:27:21 AM EST
    No stink - fine with me. Folks can go ahead and smoke away and kill themselves.

    Parent
    Uh, there's no smoke (none / 0) (#150)
    by Cream City on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 10:01:47 AM EST
    but antis, airlines, our government regulators, etc., still ban them.

    So I wonder if those who argue on the basis of  secondhand effects to be either obscuring their real basis -- or just are closed to information.  (Btw, it appears to be another peculiarly American and puritanical thing, as these are accepted in Europe.)  Being closed to considering alternatives could end this in the way that another such crusade did in 1932, when people are just pushed too far.  Pushback is the result.

    Parent

    I'm enjoying watching (none / 0) (#110)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:25:11 PM EST
    liberals bend their minds to support this reckless governemnt.

    Obama is running up deficits he can't pay for.

    Today it's ciggarettes tomorrow it will be something else.  He and his buddies in congress will have to get creative in how they plan to tax us into submission to pay for all the votes they'll need to stay in power.

    Ciggaretess, Cap and Tax etc...

    Gas is going to get more expensive, ciggarettes, energy etc...  All done with the idea that it's for the common good and anyone who opposes it just doesn't know whats good for them.

    Welcome to the club Kdog.  This is just the start of the Nanny (taxation) state.

    Obama (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:51:35 PM EST
    is the Tax Man

    "I won't raise taxes unless you make $250,000 or more."

    Unless you also happen to smoke, drink, use energy or drive a car.

    Parent

    For your sake Slado... (none / 0) (#115)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 04:58:29 PM EST
    ...better hope he doesn't slap a tax on people who can't spell "cigarette".

    So, did you want to tell us how much the cap and trade is going to cost each one of us?  

    Parent

    Don't give him any ideas (none / 0) (#135)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 08:33:05 PM EST
    Whenever someone goes after spelling it means I've hit a nerve.

    Who knows how much it will cost us.  But if you think for a moment energy companies won't pass the extra costs on to the consumer you're kidding yourself.

    Hows 2 trillion sound?

    And for what?  A bogus theory no real scientist even believes in.

    Parent

    Ah... (none / 0) (#138)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 08:57:42 PM EST
    Who knows how much it will cost us

    ...sounds just like the GOP budget "plan".  Lots of bluster and very short on specifics.  

    I'll go with the guys at MIT over the GOP staffers.  

    It has come to my attention that an analysis we conducted examining proposals to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, Report No., 146, Assessment of U.S. Cap-and-Trade Proposals, has been misrepresented in recent press releases distributed by the National Republican Congressional Committee. The press release claims our report estimates an average cost per family of a carbon cap and trade program that would meet targets now being discussed in Congress to be over $3,000, but that is nearly 10 times the correct estimate which is approximately $340. [...] Our Report 160 shows that the costs on lower and middle income households can be completely offset by returning allowance revenue to these households.

    PS--You haven't "hit a nerve", but rather provided amusement.  Thanks for the chuckle.

    Parent

    Experts (none / 0) (#145)
    by Slado on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 08:21:14 AM EST
    Disagree on its effects

    But simple commons sense says in the short term during a recession burdening energy producers with extra costs will cost us immediately.   The price of energy will go up.

    Maybe there is a long term solution but the plan better be more thought out then the one in Europe because that hasn't worked.

    Parent

    Bwahahaha (none / 0) (#141)
    by Steve M on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 10:29:22 PM EST
    "No real scientist" believes in anthropogenic climate change, you say?  Stop it, you're killing me.

    Energy companies will pass costs on to the consumer but, here's the thing, the companies that are more energy efficient will pay less in taxes and have fewer costs to pass on, meaning they'll get the business of more consumers.  That's how the market is supposed to function.  It's not like pollution is cost-free right now, you know.

    Parent

    And here's a perfect illustration (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 08:07:20 PM EST
    of andgarden's link between republicanism and libertarianism.

    Parent
    or you could (3.50 / 2) (#136)
    by Slado on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 08:34:23 PM EST
    simply call it common sense.

    Is there any level of taxation a liberal opposes?

    Parent

    You may think it's common sense (none / 0) (#143)
    by Dr Molly on Thu Apr 02, 2009 at 06:04:05 AM EST
    ...which would not preclude my point that you've demonstrated above the link between republicanism and libertarianism.

    I do not think it is common sense - however that is still a non-sequitor to my comment.

    Parent

    Whats truly ironic is the same people (none / 0) (#122)
    by SOS on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 05:46:26 PM EST
    who say QUIT SMOKING it's bad for you typically have some of the worst habits you could ever desire.

    Tax everyone who uses Meds (none / 0) (#123)
    by SOS on Wed Apr 01, 2009 at 05:47:34 PM EST
    Call it a Pfizer Tax or something.