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The Illogic Of The Lobbyist Ban

Much discussion on Obama's lobbyist ban and the troubles caused by it (see Kagro, Yglesias and Sirota. I always thought Candidates Obama and Edwards were engaging in mindless populism with this issue and Sirota's post in particular really illustrates this point. David writes:

The idea that lobbyists are the only or the primary source of good talent to fill an administration is ridiculous . . .

I doubt anyone is saying that and it really misses the point in my opinion. The point is the lobbyist ban excludes a pool of good talent for no tangible benefit. Consider the illogic of Sirota's proposed "fix:"

I absolutely agree with Yglesias that Obama's lobbyist ban probably goes too far in preventing lobbyists who lobby for non-profit institutions, entities and campaigns from serving in government . . . If Obama is to modify the lobbying guidelines, he could easily modify them to apply only to lobbyists who lobby for for-profit entities . . .

The theory underlying the lobbyist ban is that people who lobby are "tainted" by the fact that they received compensation for advocating a certain viewpoint. This "taint" theory would apply to "non-profit" lobbyists as well as "for profit" lobbyist. What Sirota wants to establish is a system of "good" lobbyists (who advocate for things I agree with) from "bad" lobbyists (who advocate for things I disagree with.) This is, in a word, ridiculous. If getting paid to lobby is the issue, then the problem applies to anyone who got paid to lobby, no matter what they got paid to lobby for.

Finally, Sirota writes:

[T]he idea that this ban, even in a slightly flawed state, is "creating more harm than good," as Yglesias insists, only makes sense if you somehow believe (as many in D.C. do) that the primary talent pool for the best people to serve in government are lobbyists . . . Even in an imperfect construction, the ban sets an important principle, and (aside from the smarmy waivers that have been issued) Obama has shown commendable courage in enforcing it.

Sirota assumes that the "principle" is good and therefore the tangible harm in shrinking the talent pool could not possibly outweigh the benefit. I challenge him to identify the principle and the "good" it provides.

This war against lobbyists is one of the silliest of "progressive" causes. The reason is simple - there is no ban on people who work for entities that HIRE lobbyists. There is no ban on people who advocate for these entities in other capacities.

The "taint" of being a lobbyist is who you represented creating at least the appearance of a conflict of interest. A ban of the "lobbyist" does not address the situation when you allow other types of advocates who were paid by the entities, or indeed, persons from the entities themselves, into government.

The same reasoning applies to the silly "not taking money from lobbyists" policies we heard about during the campaign. If you take money from other individuals compensated by the entities (or the spouses, friends or relatives of such people) or from the entities themselves, how exactly have you upheld any principle at all?

At bottom, bans on lobbyists and contributions from lobbyists are merely a sideshow to the actual problem that this is supposed to address - the power of interested money in politics. Of course, every dollar contributed to a political campaign is "interested" (a certain policy outcome is desired), but I can accept in theory that some contributions are more pernicious than others (the individual donor acting on his own principles vs. the corporate "bundler" who acts on behalf of corporate interests), but attempting to identify which is which is virtually impossible.

There has always only been one solution to this problem, one solution that upholds the "principle" Sirota thinks he is espousing - complete public financing of political campaigns at sufficient levels to avoid "incumbent protection." Since the era of Nixon, "fix" after "fix" has been attempted and merely perpetuated the problem.

I think Obama had a good point when he said he had created a form of public financing by his unprecedented, individual, small donor non-bundling base. That idea, first forwarded by Howard Dean in 2003, certainly opens up the political process. The "ban" on lobbyists was a cheap political stunt that has done no good, was disingenuous and now does harm.

Speaking for me only

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    Bingo! (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by jbindc on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 11:16:12 AM EST
    What Sirota wants to establish is a system of "good" lobbyists (who advocate for things I agree with) from "bad" lobbyists (who advocate for things I disagree with.) This is, in a word, ridiculous.

    Exactly - how would someone do this? And because someone worked as a "good" lobbyist, they are pure and only desire to work for the common good, whereas a "bad" lobbyist represents all that is evil and would work to destroy us?

    And since Obama didn't ban just "bad" lobbyists from his administration, but made his stupid promise not to have ANY lobbyists (but then some, with caveats), it just made him look foolish and hindered him right out of the gate.  If things don't soar, this is one of those small things that will add up with others and come back to haunt him as the Republicans build a case against him.

    I don't blame the pols (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by Steve M on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 11:26:24 AM EST
    The term "lobbyists" is tremendously unpopular with the public.  I assume we all remember what happened at Yearly Kos when Hillary tried to take the nuanced position that someone who lobbies for, say, nurses might not be pure evil.  Boo!  Boo!

    If people are going to be dumb about lobbyists I can't really blame the pols for pandering to them.  But look, campaign however you want, but govern responsibly.

    If I understand BTD correctly, he's saying the problem isn't the lobbyist status, the problem is the conflict of interest.  That's exactly how I feel.

    While I'm a fan of public financing, it doesn't address the entire problem.  You still have the problem of government employees who may be more loyal to the industry they came from than to the public interest, and the companion problem of government employees favoring private interests in hopes of landing a cushy job after they leave government.  These are tricky problems, but a blanket ban on lobbyists doesn't do a whole lot to solve them.

    Who made "lobbyist" (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:11:43 PM EST
    such a filthy word?  The answer is above in BTD's post.  In the primaries, it was Obama and Edwards.

    Sometimes you reap what you sow.

    Parent

    I don't agree (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Steve M on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:15:54 PM EST
    on the cause and effect.  "Lobbyist" has polled about as well as "child molester" for many years now.

    Would that my former candidate, John Edwards, had the ability to transform public opinion that you ascribe to him!

    Parent

    Sure, but (none / 0) (#23)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 07:48:03 PM EST
    it was Edwards and particularly Obama who made a huge, huge issue out of it this time around.  They weren't responding to an existing anger, they were exploiting it and whomping it up in order to beat You Know Who around the head with it.


    Parent
    Blame US Grant (none / 0) (#9)
    by jbindc on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:23:09 PM EST
    It's all his fault we have these "scourge of the earth." ;)  Legend has it that his wife did not allow him to smoke in the White House, so
    Grant enjoyed his cigars in the lobby of the nearby Willard Hotel. Having been spotted there often, politicians and others wanting political favors began to frequent him during this time of repose, while he was in high spirits.

    Parent
    Surprise! Surprise! (none / 0) (#17)
    by Politalkix on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 04:25:20 PM EST
    Lobbyists was a "filthy" word even in 1992[link 1]

    From the linked article
    "During the presidential campaign in 1992 -- with Texas billionaire Ross Perot leading in the polls in part because of his attacks on ex-officials crowding the "revolving door" to become lobbyists -- candidate Bill Clinton volunteered that he would toughen the one-year lobbying ban.

    Clinton enshrined the five-year ban in an executive order hours after being sworn in, saying his appointees would "uphold the highest possible ethical standards." The order did not prescribe criminal penalties for violators, but required about 1,000 appointees to pledge to abide by it.

    "It was unnecessarily punitive," said Roy Neel, who left as Clinton's deputy White House chief of staff after about a year to become a telecommunications executive. "The rule barred a lot of innocent activity. I couldn't go to briefings on issues related to technology, or perhaps even take a Sunday school class on a tour of the White House. There was to be no contact with your former employer on behalf of any party."

    "I thought it was goofy at the time, but nobody could talk Clinton's people out of it," said Stanley Brand, a Washington lawyer who has defended numerous elected officials on ethics charges. "We said this would be an unfair burden, would disadvantage people who had come to serve and wouldn't prevent the evil it was designed to prevent."

    Even Wertheimer, a hard-liner on ethics matters, said an argument can be made that the five-year limit is too restrictive"

    Parent

    The greater harm is fait accompli (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by RonK Seattle on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:12:31 PM EST
    The greater harm is that Obama sold enough of this tripe to become nominee, and thus President.

    As you may recall:

    "Senator Clinton's essential argument in this campaign is you can't change how the game is played in Washington. Her basic argument is that the slash-and-burn, say-anything, do-anything special interest-driven politics is how it works.... Senator Clinton has internalized a lot of the strategies, the tactics, that have made Washington such a miserable place."

    If he believes what he says about lobbyists and earmarks and such evils of D.C., he can't deliver a New Kinda Politics -- because his idea of how the Old Kinda Politics malfunctions is laughably juvenile in its naivete.

    Obama's perpetually gauzy New Kinda Politics always was the Old Okey-Doke.  We could live with that, and an ordinary POTUS practicing the ordinary OKP.

    The more serious problem is that he never knew how the Old Kinda Politics functioned in the first place.  It's still the only kinda politics we've got, and he's now its lead actor on the world stage. Disaster looms.

    We're all along for the ride, we have to help him as much as we can, and one step in the right direction would be to ditch the Garden of Eden claptrap and get on to governing.

    Yup (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by cal1942 on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:26:54 PM EST
    A ban of the "lobbyist" does not address the situation when you allow other types of advocates who were paid by the entities, or indeed, persons from the entities themselves, into government.

    Like the group of investment bankers serving with Geithner in the Treasury Dept.


    Hey, boys and girls! (5.00 / 0) (#24)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 07:50:59 PM EST
    I have an idea!  Let's ban everybody who knows anything at all about the financial system from working for the Treasury Department!  Yayyy!  Problem solved!


    Parent
    That wasn't my point (none / 0) (#28)
    by cal1942 on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 11:05:00 PM EST
    Although I will say that I said too little and really didn't make a point. In a comment below I reference FDR's appointment of Joe Kennedy, master market manipulator to head the SEC.  Kennedy's tenure there was an unqualified success because he knew every trick in the book.

    My fear with some insider types is that they may be unable to get past the absolute preservation of what's already in place. My comment was meant to imply that potential problem.

    I believe that it's helpful to pull in outsiders to examine a given problem.  I'm don't know if that's been done but I do believe that would be useful.

    Parent

    OK. (none / 0) (#31)
    by gyrfalcon on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 08:26:06 AM EST
    I'm just hearing too many echoes on the "prog blogs" of the Bush people's attitude towards so many things  that's gotten us into such a mess-- ie, that anybody with any direct experience in a field is automatically tainted by old-fashioned thinking and that only total newbies are capable of "thinking outside the box" and "fresh ideas" and all that good stuff.  That's how we ended up with a 22-year-old in charge of inventing an Iraqi stock market from the ground up, for example.

    Joe Kennedy is a perfect counterexample, and I was very glad to see you bring him up.  He was a perfectly corrupt old bas***d, but he knew where all the bodies were buried, so to speak.

    Of course you're right that some mixture is needed, but honestly, at this point, I don't much care how they fix the financial system as long as they fix it.  If they fix it in a less than ideal way, it's possible to go back and re-fix it once it's stabilized. If it doesn't get stabilized, and soon, we're all under water and it won't matter.

    Parent

    We ended up (none / 0) (#33)
    by cal1942 on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 04:47:51 PM EST
    with a little kid setting up a stock market in Iraq because we had ideological idiots running the government. Remember that those staff positions were filled by people with resumes that included experience at right-wing "think tanks" and other right-wing type credentials.  If you weren't a right-wing fellow traveller you need not apply.

    Parent
    Here we go again (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by NYShooter on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:50:33 PM EST
    We're always reduced to a black/white, stupid talking point, simplistic way to look at things. Are we just too dumb to appreciate anything above the "widdus or aginus" paradigm?

    "Government is THE problem!" True, if the Republicans (or to be bi-partisan) Incompetents are running it.

    "Lobbyists are Baaad" True, if they represent narrow interests in opposition to the common good.

    Isn't it always a question of degrees? And shouldn't we expect our officials to have the cognitive ability to ferret out the difference between useful information and improper personal gain?

    My only experience with this phenomenon is doctors, and pharmaceutical/medical equipment salespeople. (Once called "detail" people.) Of course there are overly ambitious, unscrupulous salespeople; but, for the most part, these folks are highly educated experts regarding the latest technological advances in their specialized fields. Knowing what a doctor's work load is like, it is literally impossible for them to keep up with the huge volume of new advances simply by reading, or attending seminars. These "detail" people can, in the few minutes they have with a doctor, bring them up to speed on their particular product/process.

    Are there abuses, and attempts to "bribe" the doctors? Of course, but we just have to hope that there are enough smart, and dedicated doctors who can gain useful information, AND resist improper offers.

    The same is true with lobbyists. Can we really expect our elected leaders to be experts on all the highly complex issues and problems of our time? We just have to hope they have the moral fiber to separate information from blackmail.

    This, "I will ban all lobbyists from my administration," is political pandering to uneducated emotion, and if upheld, will cause great harm to our country.


    I think you're painting the definition of lobbyist (none / 0) (#3)
    by imhotep on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 11:53:24 AM EST
    with too broad a brush.  Many people who are heavy political donors don't fall under the definition of 'lobbyist', but can be considered to have a lot of influence with lawmakers.  And I think that is the point - undue influence with lawmakers who write legislation that is not in the interest of the common good. (Well, "common good" depends on which side of the aisle you're on.)  
    Medicare drug plan D is a good example.  The government is forbidden to negotiate lower drug costs because of pharma lobbyists influence. This is an example of where "the principle is good."

    There is as much loathing for lobbyists on the left as there is for earmarks on the right.  And hasn't he already hired some lobbyists from non-profits?  Melody Barnes comes to mind.

    Lobbyists (none / 0) (#11)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:32:13 PM EST
    can also be the source of industry information to the lawmakers who can't possibly know enough about everything. Citizen groups can be lobbyists.

    I've attended livingroom meetings with state senators and citizens to discuss the merits and flaws in issues before the state legislature. And, I know regular people who have managed to gain time with our US Senators on issues that were outside the senator's area of expertise.

    I resent the lobbyists who buy favors, and we've been led to believe there are more of them than there are the favorable.


    Parent

    Treasury (none / 0) (#4)
    by Manuel on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 12:02:47 PM EST
    By some accounts the treasury department isn't fully staffed.  I wonder if lobbying and other rules are playing a part in the slow staffing progress.  The lobbying concern is secondary.  The important thing is to get the policy right (pre privatize in the case of the insolvent banks).  Then hire people who can help implement the policy regardless of their former ties.

    "treasury department isn't (none / 0) (#7)
    by NYShooter on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:12:48 PM EST
    FULLY staffed?"

    My understanding of the Senior Treasury positions is that Geitner IS IT! Just yesterday, I read that two more of Geitner's picks for senior deputy positions pulled out of the running.

    I can't remember who the writer was, but the article was trying to explain, at least one theory, why things are going so slowly at Treasury.

    I think this is a pretty big story; can anyone here add to this?    

    Parent

    A horrible problem! (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Jacob Freeze on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 03:33:43 PM EST
    Bloomberg has a story about unfilled positions at Treasury, and it's a very horrible problem, for some people...

    Former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker late last month told a congressional committee that it was "shameful" that the Treasury hasn't filled its senior positions during a "very severe crisis." In addition, bank executives are upset over their lack of access to the department as it crafts policies that will affect their industry for decades.

    Oh no!

    The banking executives who destroyed the American economy don't have access at the Treasury Department!

    What will we ever do?

    Worse yet, Obama refuses to hire their lobbyists!

    Question: What are your qualifications for Deputy Secretary of the Treasury?

    Answer: I lobbied for the deregulation that destroyed the American economy.

    That's the guy most of the posters on this thread want to hire.

    How will we ever get along without him?

    Parent

    Treasury has a lot on its plate, and 100% ... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by RonK Seattle on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 05:58:30 PM EST
    ... of its major subcabinet positions are vacant. This is a problem.

    Parent
    The real problem (none / 0) (#21)
    by Jacob Freeze on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 06:55:30 PM EST
    Together the Treasury and Federal Reserve have given away more than $9.7 trillion in useless bailouts and assumption of toxic assets, and the money supply is still in a coma, along with the stock market and the rest of the economy.

    That is a problem, and the sad fact that Obama hasn't found a few more weasels like Larry Summers and Tim Geithner to fill a few more offices in the Treasury Department is nothing.

    Parent

    Idiot. (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by RonK Seattle on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 07:29:42 PM EST
    What is your solution? (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Manuel on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 07:56:18 PM EST
    Mine is to, as Krugamn says, pre privatize the banks.  I don't care who you get in there to do it.  Just get it done.  Sooner will be better than later.

    Parent
    Krugman/Kucinich (none / 0) (#27)
    by Jacob Freeze on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 08:41:48 PM EST
    I'll trust Krugman about this mess now, but way back in October, when the humongous, useless give-aways to the banks began, Dennis Kucinich had a much better alternative.

    "Driven by fear we are moving quickly to pass a bill, which may produce a temporary uptick for the market, but nothing for millions of homeowners whose misfortunes are at the center of our economic woes. People do not have money to pay their mortgages. After this passes, they will still not have money to pay their mortgages. People will still lose their homes while Wall Street is bailed out."

    "The central flaw of this bill is that there are NO stronger protections for homeowners and NO changes in the language to ensure that the secretary has the authority to compel mortgage servicers to modify the terms of mortgages. And there are NO stronger regulatory changes to fix the circumstances that allowed this to happen."

    "We should have created a mechanism for our government to take a controlling interest in mortgage-backed securities and use our power to work out a new deal for the homeowners. We could have done this. We should have done this. But we didn't."

    "Now millions of Americans will face the threat of foreclosure without any help."

    "It is not as though we had no choice but to pass the bill before us. We could have done this differently. We could have demanded language in the legislation that would have empowered the Treasury to compel mortgage servicers to rework the terms of mortgage loans so homeowners could avoid foreclosure. We could have put regulatory structures in place to protect investors. We could have stopped the speculators."

    "This bill represents an utter failure of the Democratic process. It represents the triumph of special interest over the triumph of the public interest."




    Parent
    Mark Patterson (none / 0) (#29)
    by cal1942 on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 11:13:54 PM EST
    who represented Goldman-Sachs is Geithner's Chief of Staff.  Are you saying that Patterson has no one to preside over?

    Parent
    Yup (none / 0) (#30)
    by NYShooter on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 04:36:33 AM EST
    "The situation was spotlighted when White House economic adviser Paul Volcker called the absence of senior Treasury officials "shameful."

    "The Secretary of the Treasury is sitting there without a deputy, without any undersecretaries, without any, as far as I know, assistant secretaries responsible in substantive areas at a time of very severe crisis," Volcker told a Joint Economic Committee hearing."


    Parent

    I really hate to ask (none / 0) (#32)
    by cal1942 on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 04:35:03 PM EST
    But it's hard to resist.

    Any idea why?

    Parent

    Only a guess, (none / 0) (#35)
    by NYShooter on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 06:00:52 PM EST
    of course......

    complete disarray.  

    More and more, a plurality of our most seasoned, and respected economists, are arguing for a much larger, and more comprehensive infusion of capital to squelch this rapidly, spinning out-of-control financial tsunami. I don't know who carries the greatest clout in Obama's economic circle, but it seems the "slow and timid" voices (of which Obama is the head) carry the day.

    Why would smart economists want to join a team vectored onto a heading to disaster......captained by politicians?

    Just my guess.


    Parent

    In some ways (none / 0) (#12)
    by cal1942 on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 01:42:51 PM EST
    the lobbyist ban thing reminds me of FDR, the new SEC and Joe Kennedy.

    FDR appointed Joe Kennedy, one of the master manipulators of the stock market, to run the new SEC.

    He was appointed, in part, because he knew all the tricks of the trade.  No one put anything by Joe Kennedy and he did a fine job at the SEC.

    I just read that Former General (none / 0) (#15)
    by hairspray on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 03:44:47 PM EST
    Wesley Clark, Jr. is a lobbyist for an ethanol group.  I guess he will never be in an Obama administration.  Pity, I think Clark is a stellar person and believe whatever lobbyist group he is with is above board.

    Clark is not currently a registered lobbyist (none / 0) (#19)
    by RonK Seattle on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 05:53:37 PM EST
    ... so his lobbying activity doesn't count for Obama screening purposes.

    Neither, for that matter, are the majority of individuals who engage in lobbying activity.

    Parent

    The problem with lobbyists (none / 0) (#16)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 04:13:09 PM EST
    isn't simply conflict of interest. It's that they advocate for one narrow interest at the expense of the rational priorities of the country as a whole. Their disproportionate access and tremendous specific knowledge when they get into government skews priorities whether they're "good" lobbyists or "bad." So corporate lobbyists for noxious industries might be worst, but nonprofit and labor lobbyists also have the same effect, though we might be more in favor of their agenda. There needs to be a way to tap their knowledge but to keep them more at armslength. And yes, proper public financing of elections would go a long way toward fixing so many of the country's problems along with this one.

    You mean SOME lobbyists (none / 0) (#18)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 05:00:51 PM EST
    There is that element that is paid extremely well to argue for particular industries that are not in the best interest of the general population. i.e., tobacco, chemical waste dumping, etc.

    There are also some people who will "lobby" at no pay because the lawmakers need to be educated on a particular topic.


    Parent

    The way to keep them (none / 0) (#25)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 07:54:41 PM EST
    at arm's length is to have good politicians.  It's up to them to weigh the competing claims and competing sources of information.  Even with public financing, the bad ones will still be vulnerable because of appeals to their particular state's interests.  If ethanol lobbyists were banned, do you really think politicians from Iowa wouldn't be in the pocket of the ethanol industry?

    Parent
    They would be (none / 0) (#34)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Mar 08, 2009 at 04:48:25 PM EST
    do you really think politicians from Iowa wouldn't be in the pocket of the ethanol industry?

    But only to the extent that that industry actually benefited the citizens/voters of that state with jobs and tax revenues. Because votes would be the overriding factor for them, not the money needed to get the votes.

    Parent