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2005 Fineman: Dems Can't Score Politically

In his skewering of Howard Fineman, who has been getting blasted all over, the part I really liked was Jamison Foser's "Cramering" of Fineman, pulling out Fineman's past political pronouncements like this one in 2005:

[I]n a roomful of well-connected Democrats the other night, I was struck by how gloomy they were. They can’t stand Bush, but didn’t have much faith in their own party’s prospects. Why? Well, some of the reasons they articulated are short-term and tactical; some are purely personal; others more philosophical; and I have a few myself . . .

Two Democratic landslides wins later, that column looks pretty stupid. Even better, as Foser notes, one of the most laughable Fineman assertions was that the GOP had an insurmountable advantage in political "star power," ticking off "Rudy, Arnold, Condi and Colin." Heh. Fineman's lucky there is no tape. It could be his "buy Bear Stearns" moment.

Speaking for me only

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    Howard the Duck has it wrong (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 03:18:43 PM EST
    (like, what else is new)
    it is my belief that many people -like me- who did not like or trust Obama are coming around.

    around to TL? (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by CST on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 03:57:40 PM EST
    Welcome back.

    [ Parent ]
    Hey Capt! (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:10:00 PM EST
    Nice to see you!

    [ Parent ]
    thanks (both of you) (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:20:14 PM EST
    been laying low but reading from time to time.
    I am very pleased to think that it may be someone else and not me who got hosed by trusting a politician for once.  I sure thought we were in for Bush III.  it looks like I was very wrong.
    and happily so.

    [ Parent ]
    Nice to see ... (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by Robot Porter on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 05:41:20 PM EST
    you back Cap'n!

    Hope you hang around.

    [ Parent ]

    I have gotten so much more work done (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 05:51:36 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    So nice to see Capt Howdy (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dr Molly on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 05:15:28 PM EST
    Have missed your humor.

    [ Parent ]
    I ahve missed you guys (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Capt Howdy on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 05:51:10 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Cramer as a verb (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by joanneleon on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 03:51:51 PM EST
    That is precious.  Did you coin that one?

    In any case, let's make that one stick, like "Friedman unit" et al.  It becomes a daily reminder of what these guys are really like.

    As for Fineman, I think he is going to get away with his metamorphosis.

    I see your Fineman, BTD, and raise you. (5.00 / 5) (#15)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:16:30 PM EST
    BTD: "Speaking for me only."

    Not on this one, you aren't. You speak for me, too.

    Howard Fineman, to put it bluntly, is a political weathervane, as was (is?) most of his colleagues at MSNBC. Such people will always err on the side of whomever they currently perceive as the powers-that-be.

    Look at MSNBC's Chris Matthews, who for years on Hardball couldn't praise the GOP enough when they held the reins of power, and who on May 3, 2003 practically stained his drawers on the air when President George W. Bush alighted from that jet onto the deck of the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln to proclaim "Mission Accomplished" to a "grateful" nation:

    "And that's the president looking very much like a jet, you know, a high-flying jet star. A guy who is a jet pilot. Has been in the past when he was younger, obviously. What does that image mean to the American people, a guy who can actually get into a supersonic plane and actually fly in an unpressurized cabin like an actual jet pilot?" ...

    "He looks for real. What is it about the commander in chief role, the hat that he does wear, that makes him -- I mean, he seems like -- he didn't fight in a war, but he looks like he does." ...

    "He looks great in a military uniform. He looks great in that cowboy costume he wears when he goes West. We're proud of our President. Americans love having a guy as President, a guy who has a little swagger, who's physical, who's not a complicated guy like Clinton or even like Dukakis or Mondale, all those guys, McGovern. They want a guy who's president. Women like a guy who's president. Check it out. The women like this war. I think we like having a hero as our president. It's simple. We're not like the Brits. We don't want an indoor prime minister type, or the Danes or the Dutch or the Italians, or a Putin. Can you imagine Putin getting elected here? We want a guy as president." ... (Emphasis mine.)

    "You know, it's funny. I shouldn't talk about ratings. I don't always pay attention to them, but last night was a riot because, at the very time Henry Waxman was on -- and I do respect him on legislative issues -- he was on blasting away, and these pictures were showing last night, and everybody's tuning in to see these pictures again."

    Contrast Matthews' fawning and drooling back then to the vitriole he belched at us only two short months ago, on the same day Bush delivered his valedictory to an "ungrateful" nation that collectively could not care any less about the guy, except as a sorry punchline to some very black humor:

    "He was a rich kid driving his father's car. He got to be President because of his father, let's face it, the same way he got into school and everything else, the same way he got his car probably. But the scary thing about Bush is somewhere he came to meet people like Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby and Paul Wolfowitz and Feith and the rest of them." ...

    "The scary thing about Bush is he picked up on --- almost in the way that a hermit crab does --- another identity in becoming President. ... He became this new scholar of freedom, and he's going to spend the rest of his life selling this stuff. This stuff cost the lives of 100,000 Iraqis, it cost the lives of 4,000 U.S. service people." ...

    "The idea that we have some brand new neo-conservative ideology of freedom that's going to bring peace over in that part of the world is not true, and he's still selling it, and that's the tragedy of the last eight years." ...

    There needs to be a reckoning with these ki$$-a$$, finger-wagging denizens of the Beltway's media establishment, of which the good Mr. Fineman and Mr. Matthews are clearly a part, and also their corporate owners / benefactors.

    When you compare their median income with their resultant work product, and toss in all those numbers strongly suggesting that more people now trust cable TV's Comedy Central for actual news than the mainstream news media, and it is eminently clear that something is very, very wrong here. We should not tolerate being repeatedly misled so badly by the Beltway elite of the Fourth Estate.

    Aloha.

    Thank you (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Jjc2008 on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:29:20 PM EST
    for reminding all about what a sanctimonious hypocrite Chris Matthews is....along with Fineman and the rest of the pundit class of gated community boys who love them some power and money.

    I was so disheartened when some progressive blogs were loving on Matthews.....(mostly because of his hatred of the Clintons).  Many tried reminding them of Matthews drooling over W, especially the day you described above....but somehow some people bought and still buy the myth that Matthews was always against the war, always a dem......the man drools over manly men of the right wing; trashes women any and every chance he gets and yet he was a darling as long as he hated Hillary.

    Matthews is such a freaking liar and phony and he brings on Fineman because both can lie and spin and the other will swear to it.

    [ Parent ]

    Problem with your diatribe (none / 0) (#43)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 11:41:01 PM EST
    is that Matthews always was against the war, actually way ahead, way ahead of anybody else in the MSM in being outspoken about it.  But you guys don't like to acknowledge that because it spoils your narrative.

    Matthews is turned on by -- "gets a tingle up his leg" from -- good political theater, whether that's GWBush or Barack Obama.  He's a schmuck, but his schmuckitude is a good deal more complicated than your storyline.

    [ Parent ]

    I wasn't talking about the Iraq War. (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 04:37:58 AM EST
    I was clearly illustrating his finger-to-the-wind political hypocrisy, his love of good political theatre notwithstanding. Take your red herring and fish someplace else, will ya?

    P.S.: Chris Matthews was never "outspoken" in his opposition to the Iraq War until it became increasingly acceptable a couple of years into the American occupation. His then-colleague at MSNBC, Phil Donahue, was outspoken, and it got him fired.

    To be fair, prior to the war's outbreak, Matthews referenced his opposition exactly one time, on September 1, 2002 at the tail end of his final column for the San Francisco Chronicle:

    "So I'll say it: I hate this war that's coming in Iraq. I don't think we'll be proud of it. Oppose this war because it will create a millennium of hatred and the suicidal terrorism that comes with it. You talk about Bush trying to avenge his father. What about the tens of millions of Arab sons who will want to finish a fight we start next spring in Baghdad?"

    Now, how do you reconcile Matthews' statement -- offered in a non-syndicated column for a newspaper with a circulation of perhaps 300,000 -- with his gushing praise for George W. Bush on national TV a mere nine months later? You can't. That sort of obsequious on-air behavior can hardly be characterized as outspoken opposition, by any reasonable definition of the term.

    Matthews' opposition during this period amounted to polite parlor talk in the private company of his friends and peers. Bur when it counted, when he had the national bully pulpit of MSNBC and Hardball, he instead made a calculated business decision. He would say and do nothing to lead anyone to believe that he was ever opposed to the war, until poll numbers suggested that it was finally politically correct to do so.

    [ Parent ]

    I also thank you, Don from Hawaii (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by S on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 10:44:10 PM EST
    extremely well said...

    most of them, so-called reporters and/or pundits are a bunch of phonies that go with the corporate line, at MSNBC, it's GE...the other day they were actually pimping GE stock on Morning Joe...they are a bunch of hacks with all their coordinated talking points...that includes Mitchell, Alter, Olberman, yes, Maddow...the whole crew and their guests...people i used to think i respected until i saw how absolutely subjective and dishonest they were...how they created the day's story line and pushed it all day nonstop...

    remember when they force fed us the stories about Hillary wanting Obama to meet JFK's fate, or that Hillary was calling Obama a muslim...Hillary and Bill, the racists...

    [ Parent ]

    correction RFK (none / 0) (#40)
    by S on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 10:46:16 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    "Political stars"... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 05:49:16 PM EST
    ... are both made and unmade by circumstances. Which Fineman should have foreseen then, and which anyone overly excited by the Democrats current situation ought to forsee now.

    Fineman (none / 0) (#45)
    by cal1942 on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 11:57:33 PM EST
    and his crowd only see personalities.  Matters like policy and circumstances are far too complex for them to contemplate, it's not on their radar.

    IMO these people really aren't terribly bright.  Compare these people to the pundits from several decades back and they can't stack up more than ankle high.

    But they do fit in with the news media's emphasis on entertainment.

    [ Parent ]

    Hugh Hewitt (none / 0) (#1)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 02:57:10 PM EST
    had Fineman on his radio show and is touting Fineman as proof that even Democrats are abandoning Obama....

    What an odd view of reality.....

    And, Fineman blasted Obama over Citibank--just before Citi announces it is profitable....Not that there aren't problmes with the banks still, but still Fineman is off the mark on one of his key criticims....

    Weird (none / 0) (#13)
    by joanneleon on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:12:38 PM EST
    because Fineman doesn't seem to show that sentiment when he's on Olbermann's show nearly every night.  It's also strange that Olbermann would use someone who goes on Hewitt's show.

    [ Parent ]
    No scribe is right all the time (none / 0) (#19)
    by gtinla on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:24:37 PM EST
    nor are they wrong all the time. If you read Fineman's actual column being discussed here from Sept. 28, 2005, he was pretty accurate in his description of things at the time. Certainly neither he or anyone else had a crystal ball of what would happen in November of 2006 and 2008. I read the article and it is very descriptive of the mood at the time.

    And of course I am just talking about that one article. No scribe is right all the time nor are they wrong all the time.

    [ Parent ]

    Unless your 401 (k) is betting on InTrade (none / 0) (#2)
    by magster on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 03:08:58 PM EST
    Cramer's BS is much more directly harmful, especially as the blah-blaher's influence wanes.

    Wasn't Fineman (none / 0) (#3)
    by jbindc on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 03:10:35 PM EST
    one of the biggest Obama cheerleaders?

    Well he was a Hillary basher (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by joanneleon on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:13:58 PM EST
    big time.  I don't know if he was an Obama cheerleader, but considering the way he collaborated with Olbermann to attack Hillary, it could easily be construed that way.

    [ Parent ]
    Hatfields v McCoys (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:29:09 PM EST
    Many here saw it that way, too. Funny how each cult camp mimicked BushCo's famous "You're either with us or against us" in the name of their diety who was running against McBush.

    Deep irony about the human spirit, or something like that.

    [ Parent ]

    I think this case was pretty cut and dry (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by joanneleon on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:53:14 PM EST
    If you watched their shtik night after night, it was pretty hard to see it any other way.  No cult camp or "with us or against us" about it.  They were either on a mission, or deeply afflicted with CDS, or both.  

    [ Parent ]
    Well (none / 0) (#47)
    by Socraticsilence on Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 12:38:49 AM EST
    There were those who suffered from ODS, you can't forget them.

    [ Parent ]
    Guys like Fineman and the rest of the MSM (none / 0) (#27)
    by gtinla on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:34:04 PM EST
    were scared to death of Clinton. On the other hand they were smart enough to realize that Obama was not at all who he was saying he was. They got what they wanted and not what Hillary would have given them. The MSM wins again.

    I wonder if Olbermann feels like a total idiot for falling in line with the MSM considering that it took Obama less than 6 weeks to lose favor with objective Lefties.

    [ Parent ]

    No (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by squeaky on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:04:48 PM EST
    He was in line with your spew.

    "Obama is an arrogant SOB"

    Maybe you called him uppity, same thing, imo..


    [ Parent ]

    And (none / 0) (#5)
    by artsy on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 03:50:47 PM EST
    maybe if poor people get jobs we would not have problems either. After all, this it is just a competition in the market place.

    Because the Palestinians do not have as powerful a lobby, it is ok for Israel to confiscate their land.

    Nice thinking!!!

    Oops (none / 0) (#6)
    by artsy on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 03:51:32 PM EST
    Wrong forum

    Everything he writes (none / 0) (#9)
    by jb64 on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 03:58:00 PM EST
    Sounds like its from '98. He's trapped in amber like everybody in the MSM it seems.

    What a tool

    P.S. (none / 0) (#11)
    by joanneleon on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:08:37 PM EST
    Typo in your title.

    And another thought:  Accountability is not in vogue in America among the politicians and pundits.  Perhaps this is always so.  But it is popular with the people.  As the media continues to use the internet and the netroots as a touchstone of popular sentiment, they can't seem to resist grabbing on to hot subjects.  Politicians will definitely turn on each other, but will the pundits do it?  Might we see a changing of the guard in the media?  As more media companies decline, they are ripe for something like this.

    Thanks (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:17:58 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Rems and Dubs (none / 0) (#17)
    by lentinel on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:19:29 PM EST
    I assume the first democratic landslide you are referring to is the one in 2006. It was really a squeaker. I remember Webb's election was by a hair.

    But my real feeling is that the dems may have won the congress - but they still were completely intimidated by Bush and remained so until the end of his second term. So when Fineman said, "They can't stand Bush, but didn't have much faith in their own party's prospects", I can understand it because the dems were republican lite. They still haven't come out of it - although now and then there is a glimmer of light - but just a glimmer.

    Fineman is just another stuffed shirt with an opinion. I don't know how these people are chosen to spew their half-baked offerings. They are like someone's pompous uncle at a family gathering spouting their views on politics.

    The dems won in 2008 mainly because the economy collapsed with perfect timing. Nothing took precedence. The war faded into the background where it remains. But what did they stand for - except that they were not literally republicans?

    In aggregate (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:26:50 PM EST
    it was a Dem landslide.

    they won the national vote by 13 points.

    [ Parent ]

    His mistake is the same one you are (none / 0) (#30)
    by Slado on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 04:59:59 PM EST
    making now.  

    The only thing that is garunteed is dems will screw this up and we'll have a shift back in the other direction either in 2010 or 2012.

    Best case for everyone is we have Obama battling one or two republican congresses.  Then nothing will happen and we'll all win.  See Clinton in the 90's.


    [ Parent ]

    How is that my mistake? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 05:25:17 PM EST
     

    [ Parent ]
    "... and we'll all win"? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 11:02:43 PM EST
    Win what, pray tell?

    [ Parent ]
    Does anyone remember the heady years (none / 0) (#38)
    by Radiowalla on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 06:28:13 PM EST
    when Howie Fineman was regularly crowned "Media Whore of the Year?"

    MAN, do I miss (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 11:43:32 PM EST
    Mediawhoresonline (regularly spelled in idiot show tanscripts "Mediahorseonline."  Heh.)

    [ Parent ]
    The great (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by cal1942 on Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 12:18:53 AM EST
    Mediawhoresonline. It was like confirmation and reinforcement that you weren't crazy.

    Anyone know what happened there?

    [ Parent ]

    How Nostalgic (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by squeaky on Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 12:42:50 AM EST


    [ Parent ]
    Howie doesn't sell it. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 11, 2009 at 11:07:20 PM EST
    From Hugh Hewitt to Newsweek to Rachel Maddow to Sen.-elect Al Franken's former show on Air America, Howie gives it away to anyone who will listen to him. That makes him, for all practical purposes, a $lut.

    [ Parent ]
    Oh I miss the horse (none / 0) (#50)
    by DancingOpossum on Thu Mar 12, 2009 at 10:22:34 AM EST
    Somerby does a good job but sometimes his meandering thought processes are too hard to follow for my poor overworked brain.

    There were those who suffered from ODS

    Yes but none of them had a platform on a major newspaper or television talk show. Only a strong case of CDS could guarantee you one of those.