Saturday Open Thread

What's on your mind today? I'm making my way through thousands of pages of discovery, and later, once the snow has melted, going out to do some jail visits.

I see an arrest is imminent in the Chandra Levy case.

All topics welcome here.

< Late Night: Democracy | Chandra Levy's Parents Want Life , Not Death as Penalty for Murder >
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    Did you notice? (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by jussumbody on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:37:18 PM EST
    in the account I read, they stated repeatedly that Condit was NEVER a suspect?  Seemed like he was the prime suspect, at least in the media frenzy.  I certainly doubt the claim that he was "never" a suspect, but given the way they treated him it sure sounds like revisionist history.

    You may be mistaking the (none / 0) (#152)
    by Radix on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:19:41 PM EST
    fact Condit was the medias prime suspect, with his being the authorities prime suspect.

    Glad to hear about Levy... (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by PJ70 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:39:56 PM EST
    now if we can find out about that dead girl in Joe Scarborough's office we'll have cleared all these disgraced politicians. OH, Scarborough isn't disgraced like Condit was?  That's right, he's a rising star in the Republican party again.  Maybe instead of IOKIYAR we should make it, It's OK To Kill If You Are Republican.


    Yup (none / 0) (#7)
    by cal1942 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:55:28 PM EST
    no limits, anything goes if you're a Gopper.

    Condit was targeted by the GOP (5.00 / 3) (#25)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:30:33 PM EST
    because of his work on the House Armed Services Committee IIRC. They ran with it as they say.

    And not for nothing, Levy was just one of several women who had disappeared here in DC around that time; and frankly I was outraged that people were wasting their time on Condit when there was clearly a real killer running around this city at the time.

    Her body was found very close to my house and it is a relief to hear that they may have finally identified her killer because I've always wondered if the guy was still lurking around here.


    That's stunning. (none / 0) (#96)
    by cal1942 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:30:57 PM EST
    The Village press ran with a story obscuring the fact that there was a potential serial killer/rapist at large to sell the politician/girlfriend spectacle.

    But not surprising.

    Greed is killing us.


    Condit Case was (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by cal1942 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:46:01 PM EST
    loaded with irony IMO.

    The media jumped on him at once and didn't seem to even want to consider any other explanation of the case.

    The whole politician/girlfriend thing was a chance to get a huge audience at very little expense, a story that could be covered for little money and it didn't require any of that boring fact checking stuff.

    The irony, if it indeed qualifies as irony, is that Condit was one of a small handful of House Democrats that voted to impeach Bill Clinton.

    It isn't actually ironic that the voted (5.00 / 3) (#29)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:39:30 PM EST
    to impeach Clinton.  There has been scuttlebutt around DC since they started the impeachment process that there were Congressmen who were having affairs who voted in favor of impeachment because they were afraid of being publicly exposed.

    Then Larry Flynt inserted himself just in the nick of time...  He probably did have a hand in keeping the Senate from convicting Clinton by putting up that million dollar reward for information about any members in the GOP who had been engaging in extra-marital activities.  Flynt leveled the playing field as it were.


    What goes 'round comes 'round I guess (none / 0) (#53)
    by hairspray on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:32:27 PM EST
    Now, now, Bush is already out, no (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Radix on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:03:03 PM EST
    need to continue to call him names.

    Rolling on floor (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:50:06 PM EST
    Chinese Wallboard (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by cpa1 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:09:34 PM EST
    I'm in South Florida for a few more days and the talk of the town is about Chinese Wallboard that contains sulfur.  It smells and leaches essential compounds from copper in your house or a house you are looking to buy.  Be careful!  

    The problem seemed to have started in 2006 and is obviously important when looking at new construction or new renovation.

    If you want to fin out more about this, google, "Chinese Wallboard."

    It seems like there is no end to our turning the other cheek for the Chinese.  I think it is time for equilibrating tariffs so that our own much more regulated and responsible industry has a chance to compete.  Nobody can afford to stop doing business with the US.

    I want to know (none / 0) (#121)
    by cal1942 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:52:02 PM EST
    just what in hell we're doing importing wallboard of all things?

    Can We Start With The ... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by santarita on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:46:00 PM EST
    Fraud on Wall Street?  

    Truth Is So Much Stranger Than... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by santarita on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:23:06 PM EST
    fiction and more interesting.  However, it does require more research for hard facts.  

    Even if your accusation were true, it would pale in comparison with the loss of trillions of $$$ and the concomitant destruction of hopes and dreams of millions of people.  Even if your accusation were true, the result would be what exactly?  We'd trade one fraud for another.  

    Now that you have brought the subject up at TL and people have responded to you, you won't be able to say that the subject hasn't been discussed.  Your arguments have been heard and they are not convincing.



    Well... (none / 0) (#65)
    by santarita on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:51:23 PM EST
    isn't if possible that a non-native impostor could do better things for the country as a whole than a native fraudster?  Or that the native fraudster could do more harm than the non-native impostor.  I'd bet that if you ask someone that lost their livelihood because of the native fraudsters like Madoff and Stanford which is worse, you'd get an interesting answer.  

    But keep accumulating your "evidence".  After all you will have another opportunity in less than 4 years.      


    Hmmmm... (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by santarita on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:49:45 PM EST
    you may be on to something here.  The economic meltdown didn't start in September.  It started when housing prices started to implode in 2007 and 2008.  In 2008 there were a number of critical events, Bear Stearns takeover, Freddie and Fannie implosion, AIG takeover.  What did happen in September that did pretty much insure the election of Obama was the failure of Lehman.  At the time Paul Krugman said that this handed the election to Obama.  Henry Paulson has been given credit for the demise of Lehman.  He was and is a Republican and was appointed by Bush, another Republican.  Ben Bernanke, another Republican, appointed by Bush, also played a role in the demise of Lehman.

    But Lehman was just the uncorking of the bottle.  If Paulson and Bernanke had been able to keep that cork in the bottle a little longer, then McCain might have been able to eke out a victory.  I think that it might be worthwhile for you to pursue the notion that Paulson, Bush and Bernanke were themselves impostors.  And maybe many of the CEO's and Boards of Directors of Wall Street institution might be impostors.  After all they have done more to destroy capitalism than a whole bunch of commies.


    Technical correction (none / 0) (#156)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:31:07 PM EST
    Bear wasn't taken over, it died.  Its corpse was acquired by somebody, I forget who, with an assist from the Fed.

    AIG was taken over, as were Fannie and Freddie.  Which kinda makes the current hysteria about "nationalizing" the remaining garbage banks kinda silly.

    Just saw Larry Summers on CNN, and he reacted to the question with almost identical phrasing to Robert Gibbs's highly publicized statement, refusing absolutely to say whether or not the Obama administration is considering nationalizing these guys.

    Guess if it happens-- which it NEEDS to-- they'll call it something else and avoid the "N" word for political reasons, which is just silly and a waste of energy, IMO, because nobody will be fooled.

    They better do it quick, though.  There's more damage being done by worrying about it than if  they would actually just do it and get it over with.


    Who did it? Cafferty? Blitzer? (none / 0) (#73)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:06:53 PM EST
    Who tanked the economy in Sept. to help Obama win?
    I want to know, so I can thank that person.
    I'm so glad the all powerful MSM kept us from getting McCain.

    I'll tell you what: if you (none / 0) (#95)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:30:52 PM EST
    tell me which members of the MSM tanked the economy, I won't report your continued misspelling of impostor to the FBI.

    Hank Paulson. n/t (none / 0) (#119)
    by santarita on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:50:59 PM EST
    Ben Bernanke and George Bush get honorable mentions.

    At last, sir, have you no shame (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Sweet Sue on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:10:58 PM EST
    I do wonder if Dominick Dunne-one of Lucianne Goldberg's bf's, by the way, will feel a moment of shame over the way he and others tried and convicted Condit on cable "news."

    Strange Bedfellows (none / 0) (#59)
    by daring grace on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:41:00 PM EST
    Dunne's always seemed like nothing more than a gossip peddler feeding off the scandals of the rich and famous to me--with a sad personal tragedy as part of his baggage. But your reference to his association with Goldberg made me google with amusing results as to the many, many strands of all these media blips...

    "One of Dunne's former friends thinks she understands why Dunne is rattled. Lucianne Goldberg, the former literary agent and current provocateur who became infamous in the Monica Lewinsky mess, was close to Dunne for fifteen years, speaking to him nearly every day. She introduced her client Mark Fuhrman to Dunne. The Dunne-Goldberg friendship ended nastily when Dunne sided with Bill and Hillary Clinton as the Lewinsky scandal broke."


    Like a cocktail party in Hell (5.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Sweet Sue on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:27:22 PM EST
    Like Vince Foster said, the Media destroys people for sport.

    And ratings (none / 0) (#122)
    by cal1942 on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:54:02 PM EST
    and circulation

    and fame


    i have little use for the MSM, (none / 0) (#150)
    by cpinva on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:12:23 PM EST
    but before recent memory is completely destroyed, in favor of righteous outrage, let's not forget who it was that pushed, loudly, for the FBI to investigate mr. condit: ms. levy's parents.

    it so happens they have friends in the media community, and influence. ms. levy's disappearance was a mere blip on the DC crime scene, before they started availing themselves of their media contacts. they were the ones who insisted, lack of evidence notwithstanding, that condit was either directly responsible for her disappearance, or knew who was.

    it was solely as a consequence of ms. levy's parent's constant media harping that both the local police and FBI narrowed their focus to rep. condit, wasting valuable time that could have been better spent looking for the real killer.

    while i certainly sympathize with the levys, had they actually let law enforcement do their job, without the added pressure of the constant media drumbeat, the real killer might well have been identified long before now.


    I never believe (none / 0) (#162)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:33:34 PM EST
    a word Dunne says. He was particularly horrid with his comments in the Levy case. Here's the defamation complaint (pdf)Condit filed against him. His claims were just laughable but people listened.

    Obama Against Post Conviction DNA Test Right (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by TexasYellowDog on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:01:30 PM EST
    It will be the Obama DOJ Solicitor General vs. Peter Neufeld of the Innocence Project as SCOTUS hears arguments about Alaska's appeal of the 9th Circuit holding that a prisoner has a constitutional right to post conviction DNA testing.

    What's going on here?  The DOJ has quickly jumped on the Bush anti civil rights bandwagon. State secrets. DNA testing. OLC memos.  This is outrageous because it involves first principles and not just practical compromises.  I want my money back.

    Increased U.S. military activity (none / 0) (#132)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:04:18 PM EST
    in Pakistan also.  

    He made it clear during the primaries (none / 0) (#161)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:27:13 PM EST
    that Pakistan should be on the list of those countries we would take military action against.

    I realize that, but, coupled with (none / 0) (#167)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 11:58:42 PM EST
    re-mission to Afghanistan and no reduction, so far, in U.S. military presence in Iraq:  makes me uneasy.

    The crime was so brutal, shocking and rife with the worst possible stereotypes about their faith that some U.S. Muslims thought the initial reports were a hoax.

    The harsh reality of what happened in an affluent suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. - the beheading of 37-year-old Aasiya Hassan and arrest of her estranged husband in the killing - is another crucible for American Muslims.

    Here was a couple that appeared to be the picture of assimilation and tolerance, co-founders of a television network that aspired to improve the image of Muslims in a post 9-11 world.

    Huh? (5.00 / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:03:16 PM EST
    Why is this a test for US muslims? Seems rather bigoted of you to suggest that the crime of a psychopath who happens to be Muslim, to a group of up to 8 million people in the US.

    Do you think that the crimes of Madoff are a test for Jews in America as well?


    It's not the crime... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by EL seattle on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:14:49 PM EST
    It's the public position of the (alleged) killer.

    For instance, if a Catholic man rapes a child, that's not a "Catholic" problem.  If an accepted representative of the catholic church rapes a child, I think that is a Catholic problem.  


    And (5.00 / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:54:14 PM EST
    Should Christians be responsible for Raymond "Chuck" Foster's murder of Cynthia C. Lynch?

    Was Foster publicly active in the... (none / 0) (#100)
    by EL seattle on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:34:18 PM EST
    ... Christian community?  Was he a public representative of a recognized Christian organization?  If so, then yes, I think that would be a "Christian" problem.  

    But I don't think the Klan (or a splinter group off of the Klan?) is considered to be any more of a "Christian" organization than the NRA, the DAR, or the NAACP by most folks the big-picture christian community.  You could ask around, though.



    Yes (none / 0) (#109)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:39:38 PM EST
    He was the leader of a Christian extremist group the KKK. He killed in the name of religion. The NRA, DAR and NAACP does not center its activities around CHristian ritual ceremonies.

    There may be religious extremists that belong to those orgs but the Orgs themselves are not a religious cult like the KKK.


    Couldn't agree more. (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:10:41 PM EST
    Um, squeaky, don't be a nut. (2.00 / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:08:37 PM EST
    The headline and all the words are directly as they appear in the news article.

    Yes (5.00 / 0) (#19)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:16:49 PM EST
    And obviously by repeating the bigoted headline without any complaint, you are supporting the notion that this crime has anything to do with US Muslims. That is yellow journalism and fearmongering of the worst sort, imo. Something only ppj would defend.

    Would you also uncritically repeat a headline that said

    Madoff Scandal Test for American Jews.

    Maybe you would.


    Read It Twice (5.00 / 0) (#84)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:17:44 PM EST
    Obviously honor killings in the name of Islam is about as fringe as killings by White Supremacists in the name of Christianity.

    Don't see many headlines scapegoating US Christians on the insane acts of extremists. Have you?


    Your comment doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:27:38 PM EST
    sound informed to me.
    Do you really know about the level of acceptance of honor killings in the Middle East?

    Uh (5.00 / 0) (#104)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:35:38 PM EST
    First off let me know what percentage of Muslims in the entire world are into honor killings. And then compare it historically to other Killings in the name of religion.

    Second, in case you missed the story, this is about a murder in the US and Muslims in the US. The headline reeks of bigotry and stereotyping in the interests of fearmongering.


    I'm responding to your (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:44:31 PM EST
    authoritative statement that honor killings are a fringe even in Muslim countries.
    According to this CSM article
    there are 200-300 per year in Syria alone.

    Look, I agree that's it's not helpful to blame Islam for the problem of honor killings.
    AFAIK, there is nothing in the Koran which justifies them. However, honor killing are definitely a cultural problem which is NOT endemic to this country.


    He beheaded her. (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:28:07 PM EST
    If you think that had nothing to do with him being Muslim, and that this is not another test for US Muslims, well, I don't know what to tell you.

    (Cue squeaky finding some obscure internet references to Christian/Jewish/Shinto/Kwanzaa/whoever beheadings to "prove" that this beheading had nothing to do with being Muslim.)


    OK (5.00 / 0) (#97)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:31:20 PM EST
    Then psycho murders by Christian Extremists have everything to do with all US Christians, by your logic.

    BTW- Heard of much honor killing in the US by muslims? No, thought so. Christian extremists killings are far more common.


    If by "OK" you mean "OK, (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:38:05 PM EST
    the beheading did have something to do with him being Muslim." then we're in agreement.

    please squeaky, (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by cpinva on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:27:40 PM EST
    that limb you're climbing out on is getting really thin.

    while the KKK has historically painted itself as "christian", it does not now, nor has it ever been held to be representative of christianity, as per the bible. your tortured attempts at "logic" notwithstanding.

    islam itself does not now, nor has it ever condoned this kind of behaviour among its adherents. if this guy were just another "joe sixpack" muslim, no doubt some would cry the "islam" factor, but most would just say, "there goes another nutjob".

    however, he isn't just another "joe sixpack" muslim, he and his wife extablished and ran a tv station devoted to bridging the gap between islam, christianity, judaism, etc. in this country. formally or not, he did represent islam, to a larger degree than your average schmo.

    add to that the very public atrocities in the middle-east, carried out in the name of islam, and even you should be able to see the connection.

    really, you should.


    No (5.00 / 0) (#160)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 06:22:43 PM EST
    Any attempt to conflate this grusome murder with Muslims in the US is bigoted and wrong. I don't care if the guy had ten teevee shows.

    There have been tons of scandals with Christian ministers and never is it portrayed as another test for Christians. Father Ritter, The Bakers et al were seen as freaks, extremely hypocritical freaks.

    And these white supremecists identify with christianity as much as Hassan identified with Islam. If you think that the heirs to the KKK of yore are not also touting Christianity you have not been paying attention. It is a Christian movement.

    William Regnery II, an heir to the Regnery publishing fortune who's a prime mover and shaker in white nationalism publishing, is moving into a new line of business: match-making for "heterosexual whites of Christian cultural heritage."



    it's you who are playing (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by cpinva on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 01:12:19 AM EST
    the "let's do revisionist history game" now squeaky:

    There have been tons of scandals with Christian ministers and never is it portrayed as another test for Christians. Father Ritter, The Bakers et al were seen as freaks, extremely hypocritical freaks.

    both the catholic church (with it's minor pedophelia issue) and the evangelical christians both were castigated, long and loud, over their presumptive leader's pecadillos.

    unless you were living in a cave, you had to have have seen, read or heard it.

    unfair? you betcha! common reaction? you betcha again!


    Yes (none / 0) (#170)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 01:54:52 AM EST
    The religious leaders were castigated as freaks. THeir crimes were never seen as emblematic of any of the other followers of their religion.

    Here a muslim murders his wife and all muslims are suspect. That ties right into BushCo bigotry and justifies the WOT.

    The muslim community in the US has nothing to do with Hassan's alleged murder. They do not have to be tested on their misogyny, brutality, or patriotism as the AP article's headline suggests.


    probably not a minor scandal (none / 0) (#171)
    by of1000Kings on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 03:00:51 AM EST
    to the victims involved...

    Madoff (5.00 / 0) (#141)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:46:08 PM EST
    scammed people of out money- that seems to fit into Jewish stereotypes as well. Squeaky has a point here- attributing one persons act to his religion while not doing the same for another is prejudiced.

    apples vs oranges (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by cpinva on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 01:14:44 AM EST
    attributing one persons act to his religion while not doing the same for another is prejudiced.

    madoff's religion had nothing to do with what he did for a living. had it not been for the fact that i read somewhere he was jewish, i'd never have known.


    the Jewish religion? Talk about prejudice.

    Feigned Ignorance Again? (none / 0) (#174)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 02:50:05 PM EST
    Stereotypes of Jews are just as absurd and damaging as stereotypes of Muslims. Your dumb act is not the least bit convincing.

    Ridiculous comment. (none / 0) (#175)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 05:21:25 PM EST
    A Muslim guy beheaded his Muslim wife. Your claim it had nothing to do with him being Muslim is even more ridiculous. It's absurd. Feel free to have the last word.

    Yes (none / 0) (#176)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 05:31:38 PM EST
    I have heard it is quite common for Muslims to behead their wives in America, sometimes all 12 of them, but of course that is after they stone them to death. Guess that is why you want to test all Muslims in the US over this. Bet you can't wait to hear why they skipped the stoning.

    And please feel free to keep us up to date with other secret broadcasts coming in through your teeth regarding the strange customs of American Muslims.


    very unfortunately (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by DXP on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:11:54 PM EST
    the nature of the crime IS suggestive of "honor killings". If the person was lynched from a rope from a tree in their front yard that would suggest something else. He chose to behead her.

    I also wonder why he is charged with second degree murder. Beheading seems to not be a mere crime of passion and he had a history of violence as she had a restraining order.


    The Guy Was A Freak (5.00 / 0) (#87)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:21:40 PM EST
    Not very religious as you would have us believe aka nothing to do with the teachings of Islam.  

    Honor killings have nothing to do with the vast majority, or entire population, of Muslims in AMerica, or the world for that matter.


    In which countries are there (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:29:11 PM EST
    honor killings, and in which populations is it common for men to throw acid on their wives?

    Yes (5.00 / 0) (#99)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:32:33 PM EST
    Hitler made similar generalizations too. Nice club you are in.

    Actually, Mr. Godwin, I"m (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:36:08 PM EST
    making a distinction---something you are failing to do.
    Honor killings, per se, are not common among Christians. They are relatively more common among people from certain countries. Why? It's not something prescribed by Islam, sure, but there happens to be a correlation.
    Needless to say, OTHER kinds of violence against women are universal, and common enough here, but killing a daughter or sister or wife because she is "defiled"? You don't see that much in the West.

    OK (5.00 / 0) (#110)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:43:21 PM EST
    I get it. YOu are willing to smear 8 million people because one guy went psyco.

    Any other groups in the US, or elswhere, you want to stereotype with that broad brush.


    squeaky, (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by DXP on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:47:27 PM EST
    It has been necessary to culturally stop white supremacists from lynching. Yes, you could probably say that was 'fringe' too, but the KKK and other violence advocates were/are a poisonous fringe. Honor killings are similar in the poison. The grotesqueness should be brought to light, like lynching, and seen for the godless soulless acts these are. Insisting this is merely a "freak" murder misses so much and is very regressive.

    Well (5.00 / 0) (#133)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:05:19 PM EST
    Be my guest and go to where the killings are. But please leave US Muslims out of it, and stop stereotyping them.

    Honor killings are not fringe in the US, they do not exist. White Supremacism and domestic terror is far greater a threat.

    If you do not want to go out of the US focus on those things here. US Muslims have had a hard enough time due to bigotry and lies, they do not deserve your added insults.


    Great analogy (none / 0) (#114)
    by ThatOneVoter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:48:10 PM EST
    The US (5.00 / 0) (#144)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:52:15 PM EST
    has the highest percentage of practicing christians of any major developed nation we also have a higher murder rate and a higher incarceration rate than any other developed nation (incarceration in the US exceeds China) by your logic could we conclude that chrsitianity leads to a murderous police state?

    bravo... (none / 0) (#157)
    by of1000Kings on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:31:56 PM EST
    I second your notion...

    In Egypt, according to news reports, (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:00:09 PM EST
    sometimes men throw lye in the faces of women who are "inappropiately dressed."  The men are strangers to the women.  This is out in public.

    You Too? (5.00 / 0) (#134)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:06:07 PM EST
    WTF does that have to do with americans?

    Just an observation, Squeaky. (none / 0) (#135)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:09:31 PM EST
    Note: this was a reply to (none / 0) (#136)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:11:14 PM EST
    comment by "thatonevoter."

    Happens in many places, for numerous reasons (none / 0) (#138)
    by Inspector Gadget on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:23:15 PM EST
    - none of which are acceptable.  In Afghanistan it was to keep young girls from going to school, in India it has happened to girls and boys (the boys for trying to molest), in Bangladesh over a dowry, in Saudi I recall hearing acid was thrown at the legs of women who were improperly dressed, etc.

    Here, we just see paint thrown at women because of what they might be wearing. Though, I can't say with any degree of certainty no one has ever been the victim of an acid throw. Here, we also drag people to their deaths behind vehicles and an entire demographic isn't tainted for it. Here, we murder people and call it justice served (seems something like a mercy killing, actually).

    All of these acts need to stop. But, we need to quit trying to claim only foreigners do these things and we're entitled to sit in judgment of them.

    In Papua New Guinea, some tribes have customs where a woman who shames her family must commit suicide.


    Squeaky, (5.00 / 2) (#145)
    by DXP on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:56:31 PM EST
    You might want to consider that violence/murder of women is a global issue not confined to nationality. Where ever it occurs is not acceptable. You miss an opportunity to deal with this important global issue when you reduce it to sound bites. It should be dealt with, exposed, prosecuted and punished where ever it occurs and if that means exposing cultural sub-currents then it should be accepted.

    This Is Not A Trend (5.00 / 0) (#159)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:59:08 PM EST
    In defense of women who are abused you are condoning the stereotyping 8 million American Muslims as women abusers. That seems extremely bigoted and counter productive to your stated mission.

    nonsense (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by DXP on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:44:14 PM EST
    Any and all murders should be explored deeply. Hate crimes need to be dealt with globally. Exposing the violence of the KKK is not condemning millions of Christians, and neither is this. Where Christian preachers advocate violence it should be renounced and same in this case.

    Also, this is not "abuse" of women. This was a decapitation. Murder. It deserves attention and you seem to want to brush is under the covers saying it is just a "freak" murder. Not helpful to anyone in the long run.


    Sorry (none / 0) (#164)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:50:51 PM EST
    This thread is about holding 8 million Muslims responsible for the work of a psycho. That is outright bigotry and a exemplifies a serious double standard toward Muslims in the US.

    Go save the world. I have no problem with that, but if you support bigotry, sexism or racism I will call you on it.


    Well the second (none / 0) (#143)
    by Socraticsilence on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:48:23 PM EST
    one would be hinduism- are you saying hindi's are more likely to chuck acid on women?

    I presume you meant (none / 0) (#148)
    by starsandstripes on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:04:00 PM EST
    Hindus and Hindis. Hindi is a language. Hindu is someone who practices Hinduism

    In NYS, first degree murder is reserved (none / 0) (#140)
    by scribe on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:44:40 PM EST
    for cop-killing, politician-killing and similar killings.

    The generic murder that makes the front page of the tabloids is charged as second-degree.

    It's just the way the Penal Law is set up.


    thanks (none / 0) (#146)
    by DXP on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:57:53 PM EST
    Would this be considered a hate crime?

    So would a second-degree murder in (none / 0) (#149)
    by starsandstripes on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:04:59 PM EST
    New York attract the same penalty as first-degree elsewhere?

    U.S. Muslims Are Addressing Your Kind of Concerns (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by daring grace on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:13:32 PM EST
    head on.

    The Washpo had a piece in about it.


    "Because of the slaying, a number of Muslim organizations, including the Islamic Society of North America, are calling on imams and other Islamic leaders to speak out against domestic violence in Friday's sermons. It's another example of the continuing willingness of American Muslim leaders to speak out against violence in all forms."


    "But American Muslim organizations are condemning the killing and stating that Islam forbids such domestic violence as well as honor killings. "The Muslim community unreservedly condemns domestic violence of all types," the Muslim Public Affairs Council said in a statement issued this week. "Such crimes are despicable and unequivocally prohibited in Islam . . . Regretfully, Aasiya has become another statistic in an ever-growing problem of spousal abuse in New York. Islam celebrates and protects human life. Muslims of all shades and opinions know that."

    "Shahed Amanullah, editor-in-chief of the online newsmagazine altmuslim.com, is among those who are encouraging imams to speak out against domestic violence. "It is essential that we address the problem and take steps to ensure that no one else faces the same tragic fate as Ms. Zubair," Amanullah said.

    "Contrary to popular belief, American Muslim leaders and organizations continue to speak out against violence and terrorism, both foreign and domestic. The murder of Aasiya Hassan is just the latest example."


    "US Muslims Are Addressing (none / 0) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:15:15 PM EST
    Your Kind of Concerns"

    Indeed they are. From article I linked to:

    At least nine mosques, imams and Islamic organizations also agreed to denounce domestic violence this week at the behest of a coalition of Muslims that organized on Facebook after Aasiya Hassan's death.

    "What you have is a cultural problem our communities have been silent about too long," said Wajahat Ali, a journalist and playwright who helped drive the effort. "What people with an agenda are trying to do is say this is an example of a barbaric religion. This is an example of barbaric misogyny and domestic violence."

    It is hatred of women, (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by caseyOR on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:59:09 PM EST
    and it happens everywhere. In some places it goes by the name "honor killing"; in some places it is called "domestic violence". Wherever it happens, and whatever it is called, it is always about the hatred for, and subjugation of, women.

    Beheading may seem particularly gruesome to us here in the USA, but is it really any worse than beating a woman to death, or shooting her, or setting her on fire? Those last three methods are quite popular in our country.

    And, while some religions seem to scripturally excuse violence against women, it's practice is by no means limited to any religion. In this arena, the religious and the non-religious are both represented.

    It is a horrific act no matter what it is called or where it occurs. And it is all too often excused, if not outright accepted.


    Didn't someone (none / 0) (#1)
    by scribe on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:37:09 PM EST
    have to pay Condit a lot of money for libeling him by blaming him for Levy's death?  (I recall it was Dominick Dunne, but could be wrong....)

    I feel for Levy's parents - having to go through this all again.

    Sad for everyone involved - last I remember reading about him, Condit was running an ice cream stand in California or Arizona and his wife had divorced him.

    Probably (none / 0) (#69)
    by daring grace on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:57:50 PM EST
    the only thing future historians will do when revisiting this 'controversy' is to laugh and shake their heads that the early 21st Century generated such nonsense that was still taken seriously in some quarters.

    Not at all, D. Grace (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Cream City on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:00:39 PM EST
    as this is perfect for the next chapter of a fun book on historiography, After the Fact.  Stranger things have happened in American history, and the fun is figuring it out in hindsight.

    I miss the earlier edition that, before Deep Throat outed himself, walked through how to figure out his identity.  But every edition adds more recent cases as well as classics such as the Salem witch hunt.


    When they aren't ... (none / 0) (#112)
    by Robot Porter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:45:39 PM EST
    shaking their heads in shock that in the 21st Century we didn't allow robots to vote.


    Except for me, of course.


    I hope Ms. Levy's parents have not (none / 0) (#86)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:21:22 PM EST
    jeopardized arresting a suspect in the murder of their daughter. Why, oh why, are they talking to the press prior to the arrest?

    The suspect (none / 0) (#115)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 03:49:42 PM EST
    is in jail already for other crimes.  Should be no problem in arresting him.

    If that particular man is the suspect. (none / 0) (#130)
    by oculus on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:02:42 PM EST
    Yeah, he is (none / 0) (#139)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:38:34 PM EST
    The details are being leaked out all over the place.

    Ruthy has been deleted (none / 0) (#129)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:02:16 PM EST
    and all 57 comments deleted.

    thank you (none / 0) (#131)
    by DFLer on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:04:14 PM EST
    and also deleted was my personal record of 57 one-ratings!

    That One Voter was previously banned (none / 0) (#137)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:11:42 PM EST
    as another user. He's banned for now too. He can email me if he thinks he should be reinstated.

    Oh, please don't reinstate (none / 0) (#153)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:23:33 PM EST
    If folks could resist responding to him/her, we could live and let live and let him/her get his/her rocks off by posting this hysterical garbage.  But unfortunately, there isn't quite enough self-discipline to resist, so it just ends up hijacking the thread altogether.

    I looked back at his/her comments during the primaries, and it was the same kind of nonsense and not contributing anything useful or interesting.


    Sorry, I meant that (none / 0) (#154)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:26:31 PM EST
    to apply to Ruthy.

    Thatonevoter is, IMHO, irritating, but not as completely destructive of rational discussion as Ruthy.


    Thatonevoter is no Ruthy, agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Dr Molly on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 07:20:52 AM EST
    Why banned?

    China and friends? (none / 0) (#142)
    by StevenT on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:46:34 PM EST
    If you have ever been to China or have many Chinese friends, you will find out that the human rights abuse there is minimal. The reason it being exaggerated is because China is still a Communist country. You don't see Amnesty International screaming at the Human Rights abuse here in the US. In fact there might be a lot more here in comparison to China. Gitmo, businesses evicting tenants/environmental stuffs, etc... no difference than China or any part of the world. If we truly want cooperation and global unity, then we should stop spreading lies about the massive human rights abuses. Hillary is right on this one just like she's been right on so many issues. It's just a pity that the media waged war on the Clintons for the past 16 years had tainted the minds of both conservatives and liberals alike especially the liberals of this generation.

    Amnesty International Does Criticize the U.S. (none / 0) (#151)
    by daring grace on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:13:51 PM EST
    And rightly so.

    In fact at this site they feature an alert about Troy Davis the man in Georgia facing the death penalty who is also featured in their ad on this page.


    Depends on your definition, I think (none / 0) (#158)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 05:56:19 PM EST
    You could also go to Russia and have Russian friends during at least the late Soviet era and not see evidence of human rights abuses or your friends even aware of them unless they happened to have touched their family members.  In a totalitarian society, information about this stuff is easily concealed.  I would guess we know more about it in the U.S. than any ordinary citizen does in China.

    Folks I met on a trip to Moscow less than a year after the Soviet Union fell told me they literally believed they had been living in a workers' paradise compared to the West.  One young man apologized for his terrible English by saying he'd studied it for eight years, but didn't take it seriously because when he was at university, they all believed that "in 20 years, or sooner, there would be no need for anybody to know how to speak English."

    That said, I agree with your basic point that the popular conception is a wild exagerration.  But Tiananmen Square did happen, and people are apparently still in jail without anything we'd recognize as a trial for participating in it.

    Child labor is also complicated.  It horrifies wealthy Western states, but in places like China, peasant children engage in what amounts to child labor at home anyway, and having them go work in factories is in some ways preferable and brings desperately needed cash to the families.

    I don't like it, but it's not a black-and-white situation for most families or even for the kids themselves.

    I live in a rural state right here in the enlightened Northeast of the USofA, and farm kids here work their little rear ends off starting as soon as they can walk.  Family farms simply couldn't survive if they had to hire labor to do the work the kids do as a matter of course.


    Stimulus Only First Chapter (none / 0) (#165)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:46:37 PM EST
    In a long novel.

    "You could have a 'lost decade' just like Japan did," said Simon Johnson, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund. "Anybody who says it's not possible isn't paying attention."

    The GOP heads are going to explode because the Dems are going to use the same GOP strategy for Iraq war, majority vote for so called short term spending which is exempt from the 3/5 pay as you go rule. It is simple majority vote.  

    Link (none / 0) (#166)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:47:55 PM EST