Late Night: Democracy

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 11:54:35 PM EST
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Leonard Cohen played Manhattan last night -- his first U.S. concert in 15 years. He's 74 years old. I love so many of his songs, particularly Democracy (clip above), Everybody Knows and Closing Time.

The New York Times gave him a great review: [More...]

Leonard Cohen kept returning to the stance of a supplicant at the Beacon Theater on Thursday night, dropping to one knee, or both, to intone his wry and ruminative songs. At the same time, he basked in the rapture of the crowd, artfully courting adulation. His mix of humility and sovereignty felt effortless, entirely true to form. And it girded the concert, his first in the United States in 15 years, with a vibrant and effective tension.

....Mr. Cohen, 74, left little room for disappointment in a show that lasted just over three hours (with an intermission) and featured more than two dozen songs.

....The rigors of performing have reinvigorated Mr. Cohen, whose trademark black suit and fedora conveyed a somber chic. He literally skipped offstage at the end of each half, and after each of his several encores. He sashayed back on, with the slyest of grins. And his voice, that grave and inflexible instrument, occasionally escaped its granitelike restraints.

Back to Democracy, I think my favorite line is:

From the homicidal bitchin'
That goes down in every kitchen
To determine who will serve
And who will eat.

The man has a way with words, that's for sure.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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Late Night: Democracy | 54 comments (54 topical)

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Arrest imminent in Chandra Levy case (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by jbindc on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:07:29 AM EST

Maybe she and her parents will finally get some justice.

Obama widens missile strikes in Pakistan (5.00 / 1) (#5)
by jbindc on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:09:23 AM EST

WASHINGTON - With two missile strikes over the past week, the Obama administration has expanded the covert war run by the Central Intelligence Agency inside Pakistan, attacking a militant network seeking to topple the Pakistani government.
The missile strikes on training camps run by Baitullah Mehsud represent a broadening of the American campaign inside Pakistan, which has been largely carried out by drone aircraft. Under President Bush, the United States frequently attacked militants from Al Qaeda and the Taliban involved in cross-border attacks into Afghanistan, but had stopped short of raids aimed at Mr. Mehsud and his followers, who have played less of a direct role in attacks on American troops.
The strikes are another sign that President Obama is continuing, and in some cases extending, Bush administration policy in using American spy agencies against terrorism suspects in Pakistan, as he had promised to do during his presidential campaign. At the same time, Mr. Obama has begun to scale back some of the Bush policies on the detention and interrogation of terrorism suspects, which he has criticized as counterproductive.

: Sanger (none / 0) (#11)
by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:33:05 AM EST

For a mission that everyone seems to know about, not sure why Sanger is characterizing it as covert. I do not trust the guy at all.
Anyway, I have a problem with these predator drones in general, although airforce bombers do not seem to have a much better record in preventing civilian death. It just creeps me out that some killing machine, a flying robot is legal. Next step will be lasers from satellites.
Seems to me if our involvement with helping Pakistan take out its enemies because they have nukes is an issue we need to have that out in the open. The logic of avenging Bhutto's murderers makes no sense to me. It will only create martyrs. You cannot kill a growing population of people that have reasons to hate the US by killing a few of them with robots.

[ Parent ]

Solar kilns! (5.00 / 2) (#6)
by Fabian on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:49:21 AM EST

Line drying clothes sounds so romantic and easy.

Been there, done that. It's not. You need to set up a sturdy line, you need time to tend to the laundry, you need good weather. (Who's going to hang out in the winter?) You also need neighbors who aren't going to complain about it and the birds not to eliminate on it.

So maybe make a solar clothes dryer? Shelter it from the elements, birds and prying eyes? Googling on that was a waste of time. Looking up "solar kilns" was more interesting. Turns out that solar kilns for drying lumber is known and tested technology. It's not really practical to make a large insulated box to dry laundry, but it was fun reading up on it and it gave me something to think about.

I was thinking of using it to dry firewood too. Again - a bit much to do for drying some firewood. On the plus side, the temps get high enough to kill bugs.

My mother used to hang clothes out (5.00 / 2) (#43)
by DFLer on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:20:34 PM EST

in the winter...hell yes...especially sheets. I remember taking them off the line as a kid. The sheets would be frozen stiff, of course. We would fold them up like sheets of cardboard. Hell yes!

[ Parent ]

Have you ever seen wet clothing (5.00 / 1) (#47)
by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 04:05:11 PM EST

flash freeze on the line - so brittle that it would break if folded? It's a remarkable sight.

[ Parent ]

Can't say I remember the clothes breaking (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by DFLer on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 05:47:19 PM EST

Of course the frozen laundry would be damp when brought inside, and just right for ironing. Damn, I ironed so much as a kid...sheets, pillow cases, linen, hankies, t-shirts even.

I gave up ironing entirely as an adult, though I still carried those years of ironing with me in the form a burn scar on my forearm, matching the triangular point of an iron, with the little holes for the steam included in the brand.

Some years ago, I decided I needed to iron something for work, and I dug my iron out of the cupboard...it had an inch of dust and dirt on it. I swear it.

Ever work a mangler? Now that machine was as scary as its name.

[ Parent ]

Here's how to never iron again... (none / 0) (#49)
by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 06:14:45 PM EST

Shake clothes thoroughly before you put them in the dryer, or hang them on a line. If they're in a dryer, dry on medium-low heat and remove before clothing is bone dry.

If there are any remaining wrinkles, put the garment on a hanger and mist with water from a spray bottle. Smooth out and let dry on hanger.

BTW, what's a "mangler"?

[ Parent ]

Thanks for the tips (5.00 / 1) (#50)
by DFLer on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 06:29:35 PM EST

however, an iron is the only way the get those facings behind the buttons and buttonholes to really lay flat, don't you think?

A mangler..... some kind of ironing machine. It had a big roller and a heated curved thingy...you would feed the (mainly) sheets or tableclothes through a narrow opening. Scared the shyte out of me.

I found these pics on the nets, not exactly, but close. (Yes, little Luella...that's me!)

here
here
here

[ Parent ]

I wet those parts down and flatten them (none / 0) (#51)
by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 06:42:23 PM EST

out by hand - anything to avoid the iron.

Re. that mangler thing: yikes!

[ Parent ]

and how scary to call it a mangler..double yikes! (none / 0) (#52)
by DFLer on Sun Feb 22, 2009 at 06:45:39 PM EST

[ Parent ]

: It IS Scary (none / 0) (#54)
by daring grace on Mon Feb 23, 2009 at 10:15:44 AM EST

So scary Stephen King wrote a story about a mangler possessed by a demon killing people...
But in looking for a reference to that I also found this cute pink toy mangler for sale on ebay. Who woulda thunk it?

[ Parent ]

1975 at Uihlein Hall, Milwaukee (5.00 / 2) (#9)
by kaleidescope on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:05:23 AM EST

This was the New Skin for the Old Ceremony tour. The audience brought him back for five encores. His last song of the night was the old IWW anthem, "Solidarity Forever". We all filed out into the night humming:

When the Union's inspiration
Through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater
Anywhere beneath the sun.
But what can be more puny
Than the tiny strength of one
It's the Union that makes us strong.

Aha, so with that sig (none / 0) (#17)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 11:36:54 AM EST

of "Kaleidoscope," did you write for the late, great alternative paper in Milwaukee, too?

[ Parent ]

Alas, No (none / 0) (#30)
by kaleidescope on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:16:26 PM EST

I was in high school, but our family subscribed since the very first issue, which my parents brought home after John Kois sold them one at the Saratoga Club. Who could forget, Jesus Christ, the Funny Judge.

[ Parent ]

My, you do go back in Mwokee (none / 0) (#36)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:37:54 PM EST

to remember Seraphim and such. And since your parents were on to the Kaleidoscope from the start, you must have grown up as an East Sider?

[ Parent ]

Nah (none / 0) (#42)
by kaleidescope on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:09:37 PM EST

I'm a son of West Allis, armpit of the Suburban Conference. Seventy-five thousand white people and the largest tractor factory in the world.

I did have a bunch of friends who lived on Kane and Farwell, though.

[ Parent ]

A West Alien! I was a Tosan (none / 0) (#46)
by Cream City on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:06:03 PM EST

until moving down to Kaleidoscope country just in time for the fun times -- including a place at Kane and Farwell. We might have crashed the same parties. :-)

[ Parent ]

: Fun Times (none / 0) (#53)
by kaleidescope on Mon Feb 23, 2009 at 01:57:25 AM EST

Loud soul destroying factory jobs.
Bon fires on the beach below the high bluffs at Sheridan Park or all nighters on the beach at the Nine Mile Farm just north of Doctor's Park.
Muddy Waters at Teddy's (on Farwell) on New Years Eve.
Catacombs Coffeehouse at 31st and Wisconsin. Bill Camplin (as Woodbine) and The Ox both there several times a month.
The early days of the Alternate Site.
The Blue River Cafe.
Larry Penn, Charles Dinzoff, Sigmund Snopek, Jim Spencer Dan Day. I was at lots of East Side parties with those folks.
Sardino's Bull Ring. Hooligans.
John Prine and Steve Goodman together at Schlitz Country at Summerfest.
Claudia Schmidt. A world with Claudia Schmidt in it is a fine world.
My scene then.

[ Parent ]

What digby said (none / 0) (#1)
by andgarden on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:10:02 AM EST

about populism.

I was glad to see her (5.00 / 2) (#27)
by Dr Molly on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:59:31 PM EST

address the elitism of the left towards rural whites, at least as one small portion of her analysis (in contrast to some of her previous stuff). My eyes were opened to this problem quite a few times during the past few years, and I no longer look at things the way I used to.

[ Parent ]

it's hard not to have feelings of (none / 0) (#40)
by of1000Kings on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:33:33 PM EST

elitism towards rural whites when rural whites feel the need to control everything about the lives of people that surround them (I grew up in a rural white county, in the 'bible belt')...

it's a circle...they treat us like poop by telling us how we can live our lives (and they are told how to live their lives on Sunday, so we are being told how to live our lives on Sunday whether we want to or not) and we in turn treat them like poop...

it's a staring competition...waiting for one side to blink...

probably just comes down to living in the right state and letting the rural whites keep as much of Missouri as they want, and just stay out of their 'moral' way...

or I guess I could just blink first and extend a hand, but there really isn't much compromise when you're dealing with a minister or preacher (which is really what you are doing when trying to live around rural whites)

[ Parent ]

: and the persecution of elites (none / 0) (#41)
by of1000Kings on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 04:43:07 PM EST

and exaltation of mediocrity has been a major part of American culture, at least in the bible belt where I'm from, for many many years now...
the repubs just seem to know the right buttons to push in order to gain from these travesties...

[ Parent ]

Digby being ... (none / 0) (#22)
by Robot Porter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:18:31 PM EST

extremely stupid.

I'm not the biggest fan of Digby, but she usually has a modicum of intelligence.

Not here.

This is just a bunch of high school debating tactics.

She confuses rhetoric with policy, and tactics with philosophy.

And she resorts to using Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot. The usual place where arguments go to die.

[ Parent ]

Don't agree (none / 0) (#25)
by andgarden on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:29:05 PM EST

Though I think what she writes is well supplemented by John Emerson's comment.

[ Parent ]

Emerson completely ... (none / 0) (#29)
by Robot Porter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:12:16 PM EST

disagrees with her.

[ Parent ]

Seems to me (none / 0) (#32)
by andgarden on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:21:37 PM EST

that there's room for legitimate discussion between the two.

[ Parent ]

Not on populism ... (none / 0) (#33)
by Robot Porter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:45:46 PM EST

which I thought was what you were referring to.

Digby is also wrong on the root of what she calls the "right wing's hatred of liberals."

The modern conservative movement borrowed its tactics from the left wing. Leftists had long attacked liberals using similar arguments. The modern conservatives then cleverly replaced the Left's attacks on the power elite with attacks on government, then latter "cultural elites."

They also used other tools of the Left, such as social science.

This all makes sense when one understands that the authors modern conservatism all began as Leftists, and understood the underlying strengths of the tactics.

As modern conservatism grew, it forced an increasing alliance between leftists and liberals which weakened both the Left's power and their strongest arguments. And, in so doing, made the conservatives arguments stand out in starker relief.

Many contemporary conservatives aren't aware of this history, but someone like Digby should be.

[ Parent ]

There is something to what you say (none / 0) (#34)
by andgarden on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:51:20 PM EST

AND to what Digby says, and to what the commenter says. A look at the 1948 Dem. platform committee fight would be revelatory IMO.

[ Parent ]

: Yes, (none / 0) (#35)
by Robot Porter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:12:11 PM EST

it would. That and earlier battles within the Truman administration make this stuff pretty clear.
I just believe it's a mistake to argue that the right wing's attacks on liberals are much more than tactics. Liberal philosophy, such as it is, isn't their primary concern.

[ Parent ]

OK (none / 0) (#37)
by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:44:48 PM EST

But what does this have to do with digby's post. She is discussing both the positive and ugly sides of populism and how it populism has been exploited by the right and the left, particularly the right. Question is how to populism to help Democrats and the left.

The origins and tactics of the neocon movement are clear to digby and most contemporary conservatives. Not sure why you would think that history obscure to anyone no less digby.

Trashing elites was not discovered by the neocons not the left from whence they came. Digby traces it to both Democrats and Republican populist appeals as well as use by people you believe shut down the argument (Hitler et al).

And the context of digby's piece is that the GOP is using age old populist tactics to pin the current economic crisis on the lowest economic tier of our society, while also blaming the elite, liberals in this case. Maxine Waters is the emblematic pointman.

Certainly, you can rail against the moneyed elites, but there is little evidence that it will work unless you provide somebody on the bottom that the good ole boys can really stomp

And her quote from Balkin describing the similarities and differences between progressivism and populism seem right on the money to me. Haven't most progressives been horrified about Faith Based Initiatives? Both Hillary and Obama go populist on this, as they see great populist appeal in FBIs.

Back to the topic:

Now, one can't deny that the boom of the 20's was instrumental in Hoover's victory, but rural America had been undergoing an economic crisis for some time. However, then, like now, rural American populists preferred to blame their problems on racial and ethnic influences than the moneyed elites who actually cause them.

That was pre 1932, kinda like now.

So, getting back to Mudcat, what he is suggesting is a tried and true method to get rural white males to sign on to a political party. Bashing immigrants and elites at the same time has a long pedigree and it is the most efficient way to bag some of those pick-up truck guys who are voting against their economic self-interest.
[snip]
--- Aliens taking over Real America --- whether liberals, immigrants, blacks, commies, whoever. And it seems that rural folk have been feeling this way forever.

But then we get to your problem with digby, possibly.

"Bubba doesn't call them illegal immigrants. He calls them illegal aliens. If the Democrats put illegal aliens in their bait can, we're going to come home with a bunch of white males in the boat."

Criticism of the big dog.. blasphemy!

Here at TL the term is undocumented workers. Not very populist, I guess.

[ Parent ]

You're misreading Digby (none / 0) (#38)
by andgarden on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:49:02 PM EST

The "Bubba" she refers to is not 42. It's a generic white southern man.

[ Parent ]

: OK (none / 0) (#39)
by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 02:59:36 PM EST

Obviously not the crux for my understanding of what digby wrote, but now I am really confused as to why Robot Porter hated the piece. I guess I was confused because the I thought the favored rural term was just illegals.
Hillary appealed to populism during her campaign, and criticized Obama for being elitist. Perhaps that is the problem for Robot Porter.
Digby's piece seems sound as usual.

[ Parent ]

What Do You Disagree With? (none / 0) (#26)
by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:46:24 PM EST

I do not understand your point because you only generalize in a superficial way about digbys piece which I think is right on the money. Are you a fan of Rick Santelli, or just an enemy of Maxine Waters?

I reread the digby piece and your characterization of it as stupid and a dead argument because she mentions populism in the same breath as movements that supported facists like Hitler, Stalin etc, seems rather superficial.

All I can imagine, from your swipe at digby, is that is must have something to do with Hillary, because that is usually where you lose the ability to reason.

[ Parent ]

: I was referring to ... (none / 0) (#31)
by Robot Porter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:16:38 PM EST

her views on populism which Andgarden was highlighting.

[ Parent ]

just tripped across your Youtube account (none / 0) (#2)
by wanderindiana on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:26:01 AM EST

Was looking to post 10KM's Candy Everbody Wants in a comment at Daily Kos and found your upload of the 1993 Inaugural Ball version with Michael Stipe (have that on an old EP CD).

My Leonard Cohen exposure was through Jennifer Warnes' Famous Blue Raincoat release in the late 1980s, with First We Take Manhattan...

Anyhow -- thanks for posting the music.

: you are welcome and (5.00 / 1) (#3)
by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:34:10 AM EST

I still have the entire 1993 MTB inauguaral ball vcr tape, now on dvd. I've uploaded several of the songs. Glad you liked it!

[ Parent ]

At the newly renovated Beacon Theater... (none / 0) (#7)
by kdog on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 08:44:16 AM EST

I've seen pictures of the renovations, the place looks great. Can't wait to see it in person.

Seen the Allman Bros. there several times, they roll through every March, so many memories...Peekin' at the Beacon baby!

I see David Byrne, Van Morrison, and Levon Helm are rolling through soon, BB and Buddy Guy are playing tonight...what the hell am I waitin' for?

Ah man, old memories my friend, (none / 0) (#13)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:52:57 AM EST

good old memories. Just a quick trip from Morristown to the Beacon.

I think the last show I saw there was the Charlie Daniels Band. Saw the Greg Allman Band on Pier 84.

Do they still do concerts there?

[ Parent ]

Yeah they still do.... (none / 0) (#15)
by kdog on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 11:25:01 AM EST

I've yet to see a show on the Pier...another what am I waiting for.

[ Parent ]

: We sat way in the back, (none / 0) (#20)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 11:46:34 AM EST

right up against the river. Warm summer night, girlfriend by me side, Greg Allman in front of us and ship's horns off in the distance behind us.
As much as I dislike Kid Rock, he gets it right when he sings "Man, I'd love to see that girl again."

[ Parent ]

So when I opened my fridge just now (none / 0) (#8)
by andgarden on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 09:14:30 AM EST

it looked like an animal had exploded inside! Turns out that a can of diet black cherry soda had exploded in the back. Apparently there's a cold spot. . .

What a mess!

C'mon, you just told us this ... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
by Robot Porter on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:21:14 PM EST

to let us know you drink diet black cherry soda.

Hmmm ...

But is that really something to brag about?

;)

[ Parent ]

: heh (none / 0) (#24)
by andgarden on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 12:26:07 PM EST

Actually, I love my Dr. Brown's. I mentioned the variety because I don't think any other soda would resemble a blood splatter!

[ Parent ]

Was it Jones? (none / 0) (#44)
by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:41:13 PM EST

That's my new favorite black cherry soda. Cool company, the inside of their 12 packs have the signatures of the employees, like an autograph book. And they constantly change the pictures on the bottles. They call themselves an alternative company.

[ Parent ]

Leonard Cohen (none / 0) (#10)
by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:10:11 AM EST

Sorry to have missed that one, he is such a great artist. Among my favorite lines of his are these..

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

"Well, maybe there's a god above (none / 0) (#12)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 10:42:05 AM EST

but all i've ever learned from love
was how to shoot somebody who outdrew you."

Just slays me.

Did you see that (none / 0) (#14)
by teachpeace on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 11:07:12 AM EST

Leonard Cohen will be at Red Rocks on June 2nd? John Prine will be there on June 13th. Two shows I'd love see, and in a beautiful venue.

Got a link? (none / 0) (#18)
by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 11:39:55 AM EST

I'm not seeing the Leonard Cohen show on the RR website.

Just got my tickets to Clapton/Winwood at the Can. Too bad that show isn't up in Morrison.

[ Parent ]

I noticed that too, but (none / 0) (#21)
by teachpeace on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 11:59:55 AM EST

it is listed as the last show on the current schedule on his wesbite . Ticketmaster doesn't have it listed either, but ticket sales haven't yet begun for many of his April shows.

Clapton/Winwood should be a great show, and you're right - It is too bad it's not at RR.

[ Parent ]

: Cool, thanks! (none / 0) (#28)
by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 01:10:31 PM EST

Eric and Steve better be a great show for what I shelled out for tickets. Since I was a little too young to see Blind Faith in '69, it should be worth it though, especially if they throw in some old Traffic and Derek and the Dominoes tunes.
You don't even want to get me started on Ticketmaster after the fun I had this morning...

[ Parent ]

Red Rocks is a beautiful concert venue (none / 0) (#45)
by Jeralyn on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 07:42:16 PM EST

Thanks for letting us know.

[ Parent ]

Legalize All Drugs Now (none / 0) (#16)
by squeaky on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 11:26:47 AM EST

Here is a really great argument for legalizing all drugs and ending the War on Drugs. I would bet that drug use/abuse in the US would either remain stable or decline.

Drug abuse should be a medical issue and not a criminal/police issue. Too many people are dying and for what, nothing, no change and lots of bad guys getting to live in mansions.

The Mexico I returned to in 2008 would end that year with a body count of more than 5,300 dead. That's almost double the death toll from the year before--and more than all the U.S. troops killed in Iraq since that war began.

The gang warfare is over a $25 billion/year business generated from US sales. The killing and kidnapping is spreading into places like Phoenix, AZ which has replaced Miami as a main drug route from Mexico to the US

Great artist (none / 0) (#19)
by SOS on Sat Feb 21, 2009 at 11:40:27 AM EST

A shame his manager ripped him off.