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Lines You Would Not Have Read In The Left Blogs During the 2008 Primaries

Markos:

Of course Obama and Clinton had similar platforms. They're both mainstream Democrats!

They'll say that now. During the primaries? Not a chance.

Speaking for me only

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    It's (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:47:58 PM EST
    the beginning of the Obamaplogia tour. I took a tour over there yesterday for the first time in quite a while and the continual excuses for Obama were quite funny. Anyone who said that they were sitting home on election day was threatened with is the GOP better? I guess the Roe v. Wade threat has obviously expired with the recent addition of the Stupak Amendment.

    The Beginning? (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by The Maven on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:28:17 PM EST
    Hardly -- the Obamapologia tour over at Orangeville began well back during the campaign and was in full swing by the time of his FISA/telecom immunity votes.  While I don't demand 100% consistency from people (there's something to be said for allowing a position to evolve due to new information or significantly changed circumstances), but the degree of willful blindness, cognitive dissonance and selective rewriting of history is one I previously only associated with the extreme right, and it's been distressing to see it become so pervasive among so-called progressives.

    Parent
    Of course (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:55:38 PM EST
    you're right on a lot of things here but it guess it's "official" now because there's really no he's got to get elected or he hasnt' been in office that long etc....etc...all that has expired and now they are having to look the situation squarely in the face or twist themselves into even bigger pretzels. And yeah, there are some pretty big pretzel twisters over there but when the best of the excuse makers can only come up with the "GOP is worse" as motivation to vote then they've hit rock bottom.

    Parent
    And, John Kerry has just (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:36:53 PM EST
    sent out refrigerator magnets to all Democrats on the DSCC mailing list that say, "SILENCE GOP LIES" to give those excuse makers credibility. I returned mine in their "prepaid postage" envelope :)


    Parent
    and, as i predicted, way back when (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Turkana on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:52:26 PM EST
    a lot of people in the blogs defend him for pursuing policies they would have excoriated her for pursuing. to their credit, though, i don't see that from markos and his current fpers.

    Not so much a lot of their diarists/commenters (5.00 / 5) (#7)
    by magster on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:58:02 PM EST
    The schism at Kos between defenders of Obama v. defenders of Jane Hamsher (and slinkerwink, NYCeve etc.) is especially depressing even as the public option is fading right before our very eyes.

    Parent
    heh (5.00 / 5) (#10)
    by Turkana on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:03:20 PM EST
    as one who sometimes posts diaries critical of obama, believe me- i know. and yesterday, a popular diarist who apparently thinks obama can do no wrong posted a rec list diary using iraq war hawk beinart as a source of "refreshing" perspective on the afghan escalation. even some escalation supporters were scoffing...

    Parent
    I enjoy your diaries. (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by magster on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:14:23 PM EST
    hahaha (none / 0) (#18)
    by lilburro on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:14:30 PM EST
    great sig over there:

    Palin/Beck 2012. Keep criticizing the President and withholding donations and this is what you'll get.


    Parent
    Glad to hear it.... (none / 0) (#90)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:38:42 PM EST
    The withholding of donations must be really hurting them....

    Parent
    A-HA-HA-HA-HAH!!! (5.00 / 7) (#5)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:54:40 PM EST
    <wheeze!>

    I'm SO glad you go over there once in a while and report back so we can enjoy the humor without contributing any clicks.

    never went back (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by noholib on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:34:30 PM EST
    I too have not looked at that site since then and for the same reason. I'm really sickened by those "progressives" who had been Republicans in the 90s but then seemed to see the light but they managed to bring some "darkness" with them. IMO, they did not bring a true-blue Democratic perspective to the 2008 primary, and I haven't trusted them since that became apparent.  

    Parent
    Just curious (none / 0) (#50)
    by prittfumes on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:45:48 PM EST
    including HP?

    Parent
    Seriously? (none / 0) (#81)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:23:40 PM EST
    That's why she divorced.  (note to self, must google Arianna's divorce.)

    Parent
    Can't make this stuff up! (none / 0) (#95)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:46:04 PM EST
    Yes.  Really.

    Parent
    Michael Huffington came (none / 0) (#114)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 05:41:45 PM EST
    within an eyelash of beating DiFi for her Senate seat in 1994.....Ariana was his best asset during the campaign.

    Parent
    Actually, to put it in finer focus (none / 0) (#91)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:41:51 PM EST
    It was the Republicans shunning of her gay husband that sent her to the other side, not that he came out and went to SF.


    Parent
    DK and HP (none / 0) (#98)
    by noholib on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:49:38 PM EST
    I admit that I do glance at HuffPo occasionally, partly for the lively graphics and the links to some news stories; also I am both amused and appalled at the ridiculousness of the right-hand side of the page, with the celebrity news garbage - which a journalism told me is what pays the bills!
    Yes, AH herself was viciously anti-HRC, for which I don't forgive her, but she is more intelligent than Markos.

    Parent
    Huffington (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by ZtoA on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 04:05:56 PM EST
    is the most visually biased site out there. It is actually fascinating as a study in visual communication that asserts and assumes bias. It is not very sophisticated but that is one reason it is effective. Recently they had a story about some man who injected his wife with HIV (his own blood). The photo for the story was of a woman's manicured hand holding a needle preparing to inject. Arianne's site is so visually sexist it is amazing.

    Parent
    Markos' insanity on women's issues (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:53:55 PM EST
    surfaced long before 2008, years earlier when he led the way into turning it into a Neanderthal cybercave of subhumans clubbing down women and screaming at the terrifying thought of their power.  I stopped reading him or even allowing his face on my teevee years ago.

    I've gone back to DKos recently for McJoan.  A look around didn't show much evidence there of evolution.

    Parent

    He's right there with Andrew Sullivan (none / 0) (#110)
    by christinep on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 03:30:11 PM EST
    Yeah I had the same reaction to Corrente (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Socraticsilence on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:17:35 PM EST
    when they went way off the deep end about Obama.

    Parent
    Markos is a terrific guy (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:31:12 PM EST
    who went insane during the primaries.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:58:20 PM EST
    but to his everlasting detriment his behavior is sticking with a lot of people. You've known me a long time but I feel just like Donald above. It was just too much. He went over the line of decency and when you go over that there's really no going back.

    Parent
    Over the line of decency is (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:43:38 PM EST
    exactly right.  Well put.

    If I keep typing as I'm inclined to, it'll end up in a howling, raging, obscenity-laden rant, so I'll stop now.

    Over the line of decency says it perfectly.

    Parent

    You know what they say (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by NYShooter on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 03:36:54 PM EST
    about opinions: they're like x#$&x, everybody's got one.

    BTD is entitled to his opinion (being an "insider does make a difference) but my opinion matches yours exactly (although, I must say, the "toad" part was pleasantly original)

    And that way before the primaries. I went there just to see what the big deal was about the #1 Blog site everyone was quoting. I left thinking, "what a smarmy, intolerant, egotistical, little twit!  

    Parent

    good timing then. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Salo on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 03:25:28 PM EST
    steady hand on the tiller.  lol.

    That was an absolutely brilliant bit of humour BTD.

    Parent

    Happened to a lot of folks (none / 0) (#119)
    by Socraticsilence on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:19:32 PM EST
    see: Corrente- basically the entire community lost it, or MYDD where both a frontpager and the majority of rec list basically devolved to insane gibbering.

    Parent
    Ten years from now ... (none / 0) (#75)
    by prittfumes on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:10:29 PM EST
    Who knows? Depends on whether he's saving for a rainy day. Meantime he's probably making tons of money and doesn't give a rat's class about what folks say about him on blogs.

    Parent
    If Dailykos and it's ilk had any level of honesty (5.00 / 5) (#6)
    by tigercourse on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:56:58 PM EST
    they would be calling for Obama's resignation at this point, such is the level of difference between his actions and THEIR rhetoric.

    As I recall (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Steve M on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:10:29 PM EST
    Markos used to say things like that quite a lot, before the site got co-opted and he decided to start playing to the audience.

    Hmmm (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:30:28 PM EST
    That's you defending Markos?

    He needs a new lawyer.

    Parent

    Shrug (none / 0) (#38)
    by Steve M on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:35:25 PM EST
    Just the facts as I remember them.

    In fact, back when Clinton's nomination was considered inevitable, it seemed to me that Markos was taking great pains to condition his anti-Clinton readers for the eventuality, to repeatedly observe how any of our candidates would be great, and so forth.

    Just like Jeralyn didn't want this site to become some kind of pro-McCain refuge during the general election, I think Markos didn't want to see his highly-popular blog marginalized by having it end up as a place where the Democratic nominee got bashed non-stop.

    Parent

    Wellll (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:37:20 PM EST
    I think your attribution of a cynical motive to Markos' statements is both damning of him and wrong.

    He went insane, that's all.

    Happens to the best of us.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#53)
    by Steve M on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:49:00 PM EST
    Not really weighing in on that issue.  You know the guy better than I do.

    Parent
    All I can say is (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:50:38 PM EST
    Like I said (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:55:58 PM EST
    insane.

    Parent
    Apart from moments of crisis (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Salo on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 03:26:25 PM EST
    he's sane.

    classic.

    Parent

    Edwards (none / 0) (#120)
    by Socraticsilence on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:20:48 PM EST
    was the DailyKos canidate at the beginning I wouldn't doubt that's what Markos said.

    Parent
    One Question (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by lilburro on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:12:39 PM EST
    I want answered in the next primary debate:  would you be willing to use reconciliation to pass major bills through Congress?

    Not a dimes worth of (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by oculus on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:24:54 PM EST
    Difference on issues I care about.  Guess the anti Iraq war distinctiom was not all that important afterall. Ezasperating.  

    Not important to me (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:38:27 PM EST
    at that point in time.

    Parent
    Not toe yoy @ that time But (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by oculus on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:42:53 PM EST
    the prome trumpeted distinction by so many supporting Obama during the primaries. .  

    Parent
    "toe yoy." Is that Yiddish? (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by oculus on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:47:48 PM EST
    Was A week in Manhattan too long?

    Parent
    Are you on some kind of Flowers for Algernon ... (none / 0) (#102)
    by Ellie on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:57:30 PM EST
    ... regimen?

    Parent
    Hm. Maybe so. Lots more culture in (none / 0) (#112)
    by oculus on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 03:39:36 PM EST
    Manhattan than here.

    Parent
    How about? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:26:24 PM EST
    Correction (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:28:12 PM EST
    he HAS beaten Bush, but not by much.  

    Tell me about about he's for women again?

    Parent

    It's depressing about how little anybody (none / 0) (#35)
    by tigercourse on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:31:19 PM EST
    cares about that. 4 women and 11 men on his cabinet. Speaking of which, why haven't we heard abything from the Labor sec in the last 10 months?

    Parent
    Agree generally (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:55:06 PM EST
    but you would think we'd see more of the secretary of freakin' labor in a 10 percent unemployment recession.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#101)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:56:52 PM EST
    Have we seen the Secretary of HHS out lately?  The news for 6 months has been "all health care -  all the time," right?

    Parent
    Yes, actually (none / 0) (#103)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:58:05 PM EST
    She's on my TV pretty regularly.  Not on yours?

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#131)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 08, 2009 at 09:20:58 AM EST
    And I know her Deputy scheduler, who confirmed, she really hasn't been out that much in the last 6 months.

    Parent
    She was just on (none / 0) (#72)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:09:08 PM EST
    "The Today Show" on Saturday talking about the jobs numbers

    Parent
    DoL (none / 0) (#76)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:11:25 PM EST
    News, if you're interested.

    Solis seems to do more stuff that would be covered locally, rather than on the cable programs.  As Donald said - it's not sexy.

    Parent

    As a Bible Clingy Typical Racist White Lady Person (4.25 / 4) (#13)
    by Ellie on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:11:01 PM EST
    ... or b@tsh!t insane PUMAesque maenad [/Obama and supporters' pigeonhole]

    ... rather than a Liberal critic of Obama's Hopey Changey fluff which is what his cheerleading squad refused to acknowledge, I'm astonished by revisionist stuff like this:

    liberal "validators" were corralled early and easily by the White House early on, and were silent when Obama started breaking his progressive campaign promises (FDL)

    and this

    Two weeks ago gay activist John Aravosis asked the readers of his popular AmericaBlog to stop giving to the Democratic Party:

    "Until the Democratic Congress passes, and President Obama signs, legislation enacting [the Employment Non-Discrimination Act], repealing [don't ask, don't tell], and [recognizing gay marriages], we ask you to join us in pledging to postpone contributions to the Democratic National Committee, Organizing for America, and the Obama campaign."

    Within hours a host of gay or liberal activists endorsed the move -- Daily Kos, Jane Hamsher of FireDogLake, Dan Savage, Michelangelo Signorile, David Mixner, Andy Towle and Michael Goff of Towleroad, Paul Sousa of Boston's Equal Rep, Pam Spaulding, Robin Tyler of the Equality Campaign, Bil Browning of the Bilerico Project. Even the more conservative forces among gay politicos, like the establishment Human Rights Campaign, responded not by distancing itself from the activists' effort but by saying that donors should always think carefully when spending scarce resources.

    Right around the time the gays took their hands out of their wallets, 64 Democratic representatives amended the House healthcare bill to ban women from obtaining abortion coverage in the new health insurance market, a provision known as the Stupak amendment. Women are supposedly "furious" about what the House Democrats did. But no one with money is on record as striking back. Can you imagine the response from gay political activists if the House voted to strip all money for AIDS treatment from the healthcare bill? Maybe rich women Democratic donors are reconsidering their giving strategies. But they're being awfully quiet about it. ... (What women can learn from the Gay Rights movement / Salon)

    Riiight, that's how it's done!

    Oh, the pesky women! Racist if we do; uncooperative Dem-majority sabotaging spoilsports when we don't.

    It strikes me as disengenuous, at best, that many of the same self-congratulating finger-waggers were loudly screaming Racism when critics were alarmed -- and said so -- about "Non"-partisan Obama was gratuitously tossing campaign sops to the hard right.

    Whatever, they bought him he owns them for the duration.

    Personally (4.00 / 2) (#117)
    by Socraticsilence on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:16:06 PM EST
    I always stated the major difference to me were the AUMF vote and some of the other foriegn policy positions as well as persona/campaign, not domestic policy where Clinton and Obama were largely interchangable (neither was a far left as Edwards)

    "The Left Blogs" (none / 0) (#1)
    by Andreas on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:41:24 PM EST
    While the WSWS is not a "blog" it consistently opposed these "mainstream Democrats" (or any other Democrat).

    True Left (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:58:14 PM EST
    as in Socialist, is another question.

    Parent
    What did he say...? (none / 0) (#3)
    by magster on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:49:25 PM EST
    I can't find Kos' post where he announced he was voting for Obama in the CA primary.  Is someone out there better at searching DK archives?

    Mmmmph (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:05:30 PM EST
    What most people tend to forget about Markos is that he started out as a Republican, before switching to the Democratic Party.  In fact, he was a Republican precinct captain, and worked for the re-election of Henry Hyde.  He has always been (or, at least, he used to be) very upfront about getting Democrats elected, regardless of how liberal or conservative they were.  I'm not surprised about anything that comes out of Dailykos (and I will allow that there is disagreement among his diarists and commenters).

    Parent
    So is Markos author of Hyde Amendment (none / 0) (#60)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:56:52 PM EST
    hmmmm?  Know more about the timing of his work for Hyde and the infamous amendment that bears his name?  Or if Markos signed on with Hyde after tha amendment, even more evidence this his insanity surfaced early.

    Parent
    Actually, (none / 0) (#83)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:27:23 PM EST
    I'll give Markos a pass on this one, since the Hyde Amendment was passed in 1976, and Markos was only about five years old at the time- LOL!  This does not, however, say very much that is good about his judgment regarding working for Hyde later.  I'll give anyone credit for a sincere conversion in later life, though.  I won't, however, give Markos credit for working for some of the Democrats we are stuck with now (who are Democrats in name only).  

    Parent
    Thanks, I keep forgetting that our country (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:36:18 PM EST
    is in the hands of baby pundits now.  

    Parent
    "Baby pundits"!!!! (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:56:13 PM EST
    I love that, Cream City!  Maybe that just means that I'm too old!

    Parent
    Btw, he worked his blog hard (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:37:33 PM EST
    for Casey and his anti-choice ilk (and against pro-choice women candidates), so go ahead and give him credit for giving us a lot of these DINOs -- and giving others cover with the librul blogs.

    Parent
    You got that right, (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:58:33 PM EST
    C.C.!

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#9)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:59:27 PM EST
    I read some of the comments.  (Had to add one.)  Politico = Drudge; DKos = Nirvana.
    HAHAHAHAHA!

    I would actually like to see a poll of (none / 0) (#14)
    by tigercourse on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:11:31 PM EST
    Democrats to see if their is actually a level of buyers remorse. Are all the Obama voters still happy they picked him over Clinton?

    I wouldn't say that (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by magster on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:26:07 PM EST
    just because who the hell knows?

    I will say that Obama has been a major disappointment to me and I harbor fantasies of a credible progressive candidate in 2012. (I was a state level Obama delegate, FYI)

    Parent

    If I knew then what I know now (none / 0) (#40)
    by magster on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:36:50 PM EST
    I'd be very tempted to vote for Clinton to see if anything turned out differently, although I'd still probably vote for Obama because he beat McCain/Palin and I'd hate to have to have that ticket get another crack at an election.

    Parent
    After the collapse of Lehman, Kucinich/Gravel (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by tigercourse on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:37:50 PM EST
    could have beaten McCain/Palin.

    Parent
    exactly (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by kempis on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:02:07 PM EST
    McCain/Palin were frighteningly competitive with Obama/Biden until the bottom fell out of the economy--and until Palin repeatedly made an ass out of herself. But prior to that, Obama never held the sort of commanding lead he was supposed to enjoy over McCain. And he sure as hell didn't unite the country, unlike "the polarizing Hillary Clinton." I honestly think the right hates Obama even more than they hate the Clintons. People who argued that Obama was somehow capable of healing the partisan divide in this country were insane. In that respect, I agree with BTD: Markos and others went insane.

    Parent
    You would not have been allowed to vote (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Cream City on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:57:42 PM EST
    at the convention, then, as a delegate. . .

    Parent
    If (none / 0) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:06:19 PM EST
    you believe the exit polls Hillary would have had and additional 3 to 5 points over what Obama got last year. Obama overall never polled as well as Hillary did IIRC.

    Parent
    It would have varied regionally (none / 0) (#74)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:10:11 PM EST
    There would have been a wash in the deep south (more whites, fewer blacks), an improvement in south central (MO, AR, KY, TN, WV) and in a few isolated other states (OH, FL), and a worse performance in the pacific northwest and parts of the midwest.

    Parent
    Where (none / 0) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:13:56 PM EST
    in the midwest?  Maybe like MN?

    Anyway carrying AR might have mattered more in the end than anything else considering that she would have had the support of the two D. Senators.

    Parent

    Yes, MN, WI, IL, IA (none / 0) (#84)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:28:42 PM EST
    And you can't be so narrowly focused as to think that carrying AR would have made the difference in healthcare. IN all probability, Gordon Smith would have been reelected, as would have Norm Coleman.

    Parent
    Surely (none / 0) (#116)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:10:20 PM EST
    you jest? I don't think either of those would have been reelected no matter who was at the top of the ticket. And while I can see WI being perhaps closer I don't think there would have been much of a difference in IL.

    Parent
    Al Franken (none / 0) (#121)
    by Steve M on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:21:18 PM EST
    defeated Coleman by 225 votes, out of more than 1.2 million cast, following a lengthy and hotly-contested recount.

    Surely you don't think that Coleman's defeat was a foreordained conclusion when he only lost by .02% of the vote.

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 10:12:39 PM EST
    you could make the case that Hillary would have helped Franken because so many of Obama's voters jsut filled in Obama and left whereas Hillary's voters tended to vote downticket D too.

    Parent
    Sure you could (none / 0) (#132)
    by Steve M on Tue Dec 08, 2009 at 10:51:42 AM EST
    but the case you can't make is the case that Franken would have surely won no matter who was at the top of the ticket, when he only won by .02%.

    Parent
    Okay. (none / 0) (#134)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 08, 2009 at 12:24:02 PM EST
    I get your point. I thought you were trying to make another one.

    Parent
    VA, NC and IN almost (none / 0) (#122)
    by Socraticsilence on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:25:58 PM EST
    certainly don't go Dem- VA and NC were basically wins driven by massive increases in AA turnout.

    Parent
    And to what end? (none / 0) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 10:14:10 PM EST
    Is Bayh listening or helping Obama? Obama's approval rating in VA is now in the toilet. Those kinds of wins rarely produce long term change.

    Parent
    And? (none / 0) (#135)
    by Socraticsilence on Tue Dec 08, 2009 at 09:20:17 PM EST
    What a Clinton win in Arkansas would have pushed Blanche Lincoln to champion the public option?

    Parent
    I suspect (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by Steve M on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:28:09 PM EST
    that the number of people who are disappointed, full stop, is quite a bit larger than the number of people who wish they had voted for a different candidate.  It's very easy to say "well, still, I don't think Hillary would have done any better."

    Personally, I've been disappointed so many times that I no longer find disappointment to be that disappointing.

    Parent

    I always expected to be disappointed by either (5.00 / 3) (#31)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:29:42 PM EST
    But I do still think that Hillary's political style is superior.

    Parent
    better? (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by noholib on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:41:30 PM EST
    I think HRC would have made the same foreign policy choices that BO is making.  However, where I think she would have been different is in domestic policy.  She clearly had other ideas about solving the mortgage mess - remember HOLC anyone? - and I doubt that she would have waited so many months to name JOBS as a priority.  I am absolutely convinced that she would have championed a stronger health care bill in a more robust fashion.  And she would not have played the post-partisan unity schtick which I think fudges so many issues.  Whether she would know how to twist conservative Dems arms in the requisite LBJ-fashion, well, that I do not know. But I think her own legislative experience and her years in politics --going back to Watergate committees and at WJC's side -- would have helped her with that too.

    Parent
    It's impossible to know exactly what she (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:43:18 PM EST
    would have done. I agree that she probably would have been more aggressive on the domestic front, but probably not as much as I would have liked.

    What I do think is that even if she pursued the same policies, she would have been more effective at getting them implemented. Of course, that is also unprovable.

    Parent

    All just feelings... (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by huzzlewhat on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 03:22:08 PM EST
    I know, but I agree with you. I do think Clinton would have been more aggressive -- after 20 years of being one of the more popular political punching bags around, I don't think she has the slightest bit of investment in being liked. I think she would have been on the same page as B. Clinton in terms of margins -- she would have been willing to go for the narrowest of partisan wins, rather than chasing a post-partisan illusion that had the Democrats frantically chasing after Olympia Snowe's vote for the sake of optics. And I think a Clinton administration would have taken a leadership role on the healthcare front, sort of a second stab at 1992-3, rather than leaving it up to Congress to develop a plan. It still would have been a mess, and open to all sorts of political infighting and compromises, no question, and I don't have any illusion that she would have made the socialist in me happy. But I think there would have been a strong position from the White House, at least.

    Parent
    Not to mention (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Politalkix on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 09:27:11 PM EST
    that Nelson, Conrad, Lieberman, Baucus and others would have taken her 3.00 AM phone calls on health care reform :-)

    Parent
    Has there in recent memory been (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Socraticsilence on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:28:51 PM EST
    a President who didn't leave his supporters disappointed- the only ones I can think of are Bush in 2004 (before he turned on his base with the borders stuff) and Reagan in 1984 (this is a caveat as he actually raised taxes in 1982)- maybe Nixon in 1972 (Got us out of 'nam- not cleanly and was a war criminal but just in tine to reap the electoral benefits).

    Parent
    That's disappointing (none / 0) (#36)
    by hookfan on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:31:44 PM EST
    There is an Obama quote (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Steve M on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:36:45 PM EST
    that goes something like this: "Leadership is the process of disappointing people at a pace they can handle."

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:38:04 PM EST
    That's gotta be apocryphal.

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#51)
    by Steve M on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:47:09 PM EST
    It's not a widely reported quote.  Someone claimed it was something he used to say around the campaign office.

    Parent
    A couple of weeks ago, NPR Radio (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:48:50 PM EST
    said that a poll (sorry, don't know which one) conducted showed 46% of those who voted for Obama last election would not do it again.

    Parent
    Do you mean (2.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Steve M on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:59:47 PM EST
    I bet (none / 0) (#16)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:13:54 PM EST
    Most will never admit to it if true.

    Parent
    He has something like 80% approval w/ Dems (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:21:29 PM EST
    How accurate is that? (none / 0) (#21)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:24:07 PM EST
    Or are they just intimdated about answering the polls to reflect badly on Obama.  Or are the polls more urban centered?

    What we do know is that many Independents are not happy with him and possibly regret their votes.

    Parent

    Why (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:09:38 PM EST
    wouldn't you bleieve that he has an 80% approval among Dems? I mean Bush the disaster had a 70% approval rating among Republicans until the bitter end.

    Parent
    When you start questioning the almost (none / 0) (#26)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:27:28 PM EST
    universal findings of polls, you're on pretty shaky ground, it seems to me. What you might argue is that the universe of people willing to take a poll is very different now than it was 18 months ago.

    Parent
    Maybe (none / 0) (#34)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:31:14 PM EST
    But we could also say that 90% of AA's are still happy with him, while under 50% of whites are.  Now, I've read some newpaper opinion writers try to take those statistics,along with the "80% of Dems" out to mean that dumb, racist white Republicans don't approve him, and only those who are more enlightened continue to approve of him.

    Duh - I would expect 80% of Dems to approve of him - the Independent number is the important one (especially as it includes lots of former Dems from last year).

    Parent

    Where to even begin. . .? (none / 0) (#45)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:40:02 PM EST
    Obama has hovered at about 50% white support for a year, at least. He did not come close to winning the white vote in 2008, and nobody expected him to. I don't have a cite, but getting almost half of overall whites means that you're getting almost all white Democrats. As for the "independents," well, there are lots of people who call themselves that. And for the last two years, the group has been republican-leaning. Why? Because Republicans stopped identifying themselves as such.

    Your "former Dems" (presumably you mean PUMAs and such) could fit into a broom closet, I am sorry to say.

    Parent

    re: the mighty "former Dems" (none / 0) (#49)
    by lilburro on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:44:39 PM EST
    Democratic registration massively increased in 2008 anyway did it not?  That should more than compensate for the defections.

    Parent
    Hardly (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:59:56 PM EST
    Many of those "new" registrations were to vote in closed primaries.  You won't know how many "new" Dems there are for a couple of election cycles and if they actually vote.

    You can look to the 2009 elections in NJ and Virginia as examples.  Yes, voter turnout among Dems was depressed, but you have to ask yourself, if the same folks who supported Obama in those states would have come out to vote, then you could better say they supported the "Democratic" platform.  Many of those voters who supported Obama, only did so because of the personality - so were they really  "Dems" to begin with?

    Parent

    Registration isn't what you look at, party ID is (none / 0) (#54)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:49:31 PM EST
    And yes, Dem party ID did go up between 2004 and 2008.

    Parent
    According to Gallup (none / 0) (#69)
    by The Maven on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:02:56 PM EST
    in their weekly job approval polls, Obama's approval ratings among whites started out at just over 60% at the beginning of his administration (click on the download link for their full demographic breakdown), remained in a range slightly below that through early May, and then began a steady decline down toward the current 40% figure.  If I had to guess, this was probably the result of a fair number of folks who hadn't voted for him initially giving him the benfit of the doubt and then drifting back to their former views, putting him back to about where he was 13 months ago on election day.

    Parent
    That sounds about right (none / 0) (#71)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:07:25 PM EST
    If you believe R2k, he's still closer to 45% with whites. In any case, whites are very conservative, and if only they had been allowed to vote in 2008, McCain would have won an overwhelming majority of states.

    Parent
    This comment (none / 0) (#85)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:31:09 PM EST
    In any case, whites are very conservative, and if only they had been allowed to vote in 2008, McCain would have won an overwhelming majority of states.
    makes absolutely no sense.

    "Whites are very conservative"

    "Had they been allowed to vote...."

    ???

    Parent

    Read again (none / 0) (#86)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:35:32 PM EST
    If the 2008 election had been conducted only among whites, McCain would have swept.

    Parent
    But (none / 0) (#93)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:45:36 PM EST
    "Whites are very conservative" - wrong.

    Parent
    No, RIGHT (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:59:01 PM EST
    Every piece of available evidence confirms this.

    Parent
    WRONG (none / 0) (#129)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 08, 2009 at 09:18:56 AM EST
    Your statement is way too broad and a sweeping generalization which says all white people are racist. With that kind of logic, you could argue after last year's election black people are racist against whites. I am white and know plenty of white people who are not racist.

    Need to get better arguing style if you're going to go to court someday. No judge will let you get away with statements like that.

    Parent

    dude (none / 0) (#133)
    by lilburro on Tue Dec 08, 2009 at 10:54:28 AM EST
    "conservative" does not mean "racist."  God.  And andgarden is right by the numbers.  

    Parent
    I think 41% of the white vote (none / 0) (#115)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 05:54:14 PM EST
    is what it takes for a Democrat to win.  Gore got about 41% and Kerry about 39% iirc.

    The white votes is decreasing; hence, the Republicans' demographic problem.

    Parent

    And Obama (none / 0) (#130)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 08, 2009 at 09:20:09 AM EST
    got 43-44%

    Parent
    Wow what a suprise (none / 0) (#125)
    by Socraticsilence on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:32:30 PM EST
    No Dem has won 50% +1 of the white vote since LBJ in 1964.

    Parent
    Maybe we should weight the polls (none / 0) (#124)
    by Socraticsilence on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 06:30:42 PM EST
    so African-American support is worth only 3/5ths of white support.

    Parent
    Sure, but that's not the same thing. I'm (none / 0) (#23)
    by tigercourse on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:25:15 PM EST
    sure there are plenty of people who can say they largely approve of him, but now think Clinton might have been better.

    Parent
    Psychologically, I think that's a difficult (none / 0) (#30)
    by andgarden on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:28:28 PM EST
    position for many people to hold. I doubt you would get many to admit to it.

    Parent
    The diehard Obama (none / 0) (#109)
    by jen on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 03:28:20 PM EST
    supporters I know mostly have a bad, bad base of CDS. They would never, ever say or feel Clinton would have been better.

    Parent
    A friend of mine, a true believer and (none / 0) (#62)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 01:58:02 PM EST
    an untiring supporter of Obama, is definitely disillusioned. Yet, when push comes to shove in 2012, I firmly believe he will once again pull the lever for Obama since he will feel there is no alternative.

    Parent