Where Have You Gone Arnold Palmer?

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Off Topic
Posted on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:30:16 AM EST
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From Bill Simmons' Mailbag:

Q: With the Woods mess in the news, I am reminded of how I feel about him -- amazed at his skill, but not a fan. He has modeled his life and career after his hero, Michael Jordan, and I felt the same way about him. It got me to thinking about what Jordan has created, the mega-sports star with huge endorsement clout that we marvel at but don't necessarily like. At the very least we are indifferent to many of sports' biggest stars. Think about this list: Jordan, Woods, Kobe, Federer, Jimmie Johnson, Beckham. All worldwide money machines, but how do we really feel about them? Indifferent. Arnold Palmer was the first modern-day mega-star and paved the way in the endorsement business for an athlete who was real AND likeable. Who is today's Arnie? Do we have one? -- Matt, Phoenix

SG: Well, LeBron isn't quite ready yet. I think it will be him soon. But for now … right now … I mean … this kills me to say it … but isn't it Peyton Manning?

(Emphasis supplied.) Simmons is wrong about LeBron. He is the newest version of Jordan. Manning is likeable but Arnold Palmer "root for him" likeable? Nah. Palmer was from Latrobe, Pennsylvania and projected a working class image that made him a natural to root for against the "country club" types. Derek Jeter is our version of Joe DiMaggio. The closest we came to a Palmer type was Brett Favre -- before he left the Packers. He was our Arnold Palmer - projecting "realness" and "every guyness" and people all over rooted for him. More . . .

The funny thing is the POPULAR playboy athlete of all time, imo, was Joe Namath. People forget how big Namath was. He was much bigger than Joe Montana (and while Montana may have been a playboy he was not famous for being one.)

In a way, I think Tiger's mess gives Phil Mickleson, already as Palmeresque a character as there is in golf, a chance to become really like Palmer. But he has to beat Tiger in some majors.

As Simmons writes, the 2010 Masters will be huge. but what would make it the biggest sports event of the year would be a duel down the stretch between Tiger and Mickleson. It would be interesting if Woods embraced the black hat. Obviously, Mickleson, who took time off from golf to be with his breast cancer stricken wife (as opposed to why Tiger is taking time off) would be the white hat.

In the final analysis though, I do not know if it is possible for a "new Arnold Palmer" to emerge in American sports. We know too much about them now. And the NFL, our biggest sport, paradoxically makes the players too anonymous (it's the warrior gear.) The rest of the sports, or even celebrity, world, is just too diffuse. There are no more real instances of nationally shared cultural experiences.

Speaking for me only

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Where Have You Gone Arnold Palmer? | 63 comments (63 topical)

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"Brian's Song." (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:21:28 PM EST

: OK, now I'm gonna cry (5.00 / 2) (#32)
by ruffian on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:26:26 PM EST

Pavlov's response to mention of that movie.

Ideally (none / 0) (#1)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:34:26 AM EST

This would be a Sports Left post.

Realness and every-guyness (none / 0) (#2)
by jondee on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:47:39 AM EST

can be just as illusory as any other image that is projected back and forth in the celebrity-media-audience complex.

Let's not forget that Bush carried an election due to his "realness" and "he's one of us" appeal in a lot of quarters in the country.

Reality and illusion, where's the dividing line?


It's all illusion (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:53:54 AM EST

My alternate title for this piece was "Our Famous 'Friends.'"


Yes, but that's the point (none / 0) (#31)
by gyrfalcon on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:23:25 PM EST

isn't it? Doesn't matter if the guy is real or not, only whether he (or she!) projects realness. And fwiw, it's usually a good deal easier to project an image of "realness" if you are. Goes for politics, too, as well as sports.

I don't care whether athletes are "really real" or not, but if they seem real, it's a heck of a lot easier to root for them.


: Seem being the key word (none / 0) (#33)
by jondee on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:29:12 PM EST

and then, different people have different criterions
of realness.

Great title. I vote for Tim Tebow, and (none / 0) (#3)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:48:17 AM EST

I don't even care about football.

Or David Eckstein. (none / 0) (#8)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:52:06 AM EST

If he played for the Yankees maybe (none / 0) (#11)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:53:17 AM EST

I take it you know Eckstein was a Gator.


Awfully self-effacing. Never would have (none / 0) (#13)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:54:41 AM EST

guessed he was a Gator.


Heh (none / 0) (#17)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:01:50 PM EST

for the record (none / 0) (#19)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:03:48 PM EST

College

At the University of Florida in Gainesville, Florida, Eckstein was a walk-on player to the Gators baseball team in season of 1994, later earning a scholarship. A standout in the Southeastern Conference, he was a two-time All-SEC (1995-1996) first team sports in 1996 and a three-time SEC Academic Honor Roll selection (1995-1997). Eckstein was the first two-time corporation Academic All-American in Gator history. He was also a member of the 1996 baseball team that finished third in the country.


: WS rings as Giant and Cardinal. But (none / 0) (#21)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:10:49 PM EST

too small to play baseball. What a scrapper.

Tebow is too religious (none / 0) (#10)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:52:48 AM EST

People like their heroes religious, but not too religious.

Besides, Tebow is not gonna be a big star in the NFL. If he plays 5 years, it will be a lot.


: Like Kurt Warner. (none / 0) (#56)
by MileHi Hawkeye on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 03:58:05 PM EST

An all-American rags to riches backstory that Hollywood could have written and an NFL champion, but way too religious for most.

: I think Tebow gets a bigger pass than most (none / 0) (#57)
by Socraticsilence on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 06:43:57 PM EST

because of the whole "actually does it" stuff- when a guy like Ray Lewis talks about God its funny.

Clearly (none / 0) (#4)
by Steve M on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:48:53 AM EST

the most likeable athlete of the last 20 years was Steve Yzerman.

If hockey was bigger (none / 0) (#6)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:51:54 AM EST

and Yzerman was American, he could have been huge in the US.


: It's Too Bad (none / 0) (#59)
by CDN Ctzn on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 07:13:58 PM EST

that Hockey isn't more popular because MANY of the players are very decent guys. I've had opportunity to meet several current and former NHL players and in spite of their fame they are generous and kind guys. The example Steve gives of Yzerman is more the rule rather than the exception when it comes to Hockey players.
What other sport allows their major trophy to be placed in the hands of it's players so they can parade it around their small towns? The majority of NHL players are kids who grew up in small towns playing Hockey on frozen "ponds" as kids and they have never forgotten their roots.

Not Bob Probert? (none / 0) (#7)
by jondee on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:51:55 AM EST

Life being the way it often (none / 0) (#23)
by jondee on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:12:40 PM EST

is, Proby's probably a great guy "in real life" and Yzerman's a d*ck.

Or maybe it just depends on what day of the week it is.


: A story (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by Steve M on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:41:07 PM EST

I once had a chat with a local judge who moved next door to Steve Yzerman.
One day, a knock on the door. Oh hey, it's Steve Yzerman. He was holding some pictures in his hand.
Yzerman explained that he was planning on fencing in his backyard, and he wanted his neighbors to look at the fence styles they were considering. Because he didn't want to subject his neighbors to anything they found unpleasant to look at, considering the fence borders their backyards too.
Can't say as I've ever had a neighbor that considerate, famous or nonfamous.

In the Tennis US Open there was some (none / 0) (#5)
by tigercourse on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:50:25 AM EST

guy who mostly played in College, looked a little "stocky" and managed to pull a Oudin on the Men's side. Now, if he could just become actually consistently good, that would be the guy you're looking for.

It has to be a guy? (none / 0) (#37)
by oldpro on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:38:06 PM EST

Billie Jean sure filled the bill for me.


Love Billie Jean (none / 0) (#49)
by Grey on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 01:58:09 PM EST

Been wondering why no women were being mentioned.

I think July Foudy qualifies, too, but might be too obscure a name for most.


: Our sports don't get the consistant (none / 0) (#50)
by nycstray on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 02:15:11 PM EST

exposures. We only rate mainstream coverage on big events. Championships where men have a stake also, the Olympics, etc.

Arnie (none / 0) (#9)
by Dadler on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:52:15 AM EST

Great documentary on HBO this year, BACK NINE AT CHERRY HILLS, about the 1960 US Open, which featured aging Ben Hogan, Palmer in his prime, and baby-faced Nicklaus.

Here's a Palmer clip.

Dan Jenkins on the 60 Open is a classic (none / 0) (#14)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:55:07 AM EST

Arnie drove the green . . . .

Hogan saying about Nicklaus "he plays a game I am not familiar with" and "if he knew how to play he would have won by 6."


: Jenkins on Hogan (none / 0) (#15)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:56:18 AM EST

link.

NACAR drivers make a point (none / 0) (#16)
by jeffinalabama on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 11:58:46 AM EST

of being likeable and real to their fans. For people who don't like NASCAR, this may not be widely noticed, but within the nascar subculture, it is important.

Even those known as intimidating or rough drivers on the track aren't seen as mean or offputting out of the race car. With NASCAR's popularity, even though it's far from universal, drivers are held up as role models. When one gets arrested for DWI (Can't remember the name, but happened a couple of months ago) the repercussions are severe among the fans.

folks who like Tony Stewart don't mind that he trades paint on Sunday on the track, because he's a good fellow off of the track, or at least he's seen that way.

Maybe it's the relatively minor (in terms of media coverage) time given to drivers that makes them invisible in the larger public's eye, I don't know. but for afficionados, the good and bad points are known and talked about.

I'd mention, instead of Jimmie Johnson, some of the other drivers, Smoke, Juan Pablo Montoya, JJ Yeley, just to name a few, who could have such an image. Maybe it's a NASCAR-centric or specific phenomenon, and outside observers don't get much exposure to it.

: Religious but not "too" religious? (none / 0) (#18)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:03:01 PM EST

Palmer was before "trial by media" (none / 0) (#20)
by 1980Ford on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:06:03 PM EST

To the degree it is now. Would he be pristine today? Maybe, unless he made a mistake that brought out the vultures. "Kick 'em when their up, kick 'em when their down" because they got "Dirty Laundry."

We had Walter Payton for a while (none / 0) (#22)
by ruffian on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:12:02 PM EST

No one more real and likable than that guy, and for my money the best pro athlete of his day. Still miss him every Sunday.

Magic Johnson too. He is widely loved in L.A. for his charitable enterprises, much as Arnold Palmer is here in FL.

I don't know much about modern athletes, and I think that is a sign of what you are speaking of - I used to love sports until the money and commercial endorsement culture overshadowed the sports, for me anyway. And 'money machine' aspect makes it all so fake for me. I will never be able to really be a fan of an athlete again - I can't see through all the hype anymore.

And we had Warren Spahn, Hank Aaron (5.00 / 1) (#35)
by Cream City on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:36:39 PM EST

and so many others -- in football, too, but baseball ruled my town even in the Packers' Lombardi era -- who not only came from the working class but still lived with us in middle-class neighborhoods. My older brother had Spahn for a Little League coach; can you imagine?! as Spahn's son was on my brother's team. Hammerin' Hank did so much quiet good in the civil rights movement here and still comes back to town often. From the Packers, Bart Starr still puts in time on one of his great projects here, taking in wrecked cars and training teens how to rebuild them to sell them to pay for many other programs for them. From the Bucks, Johnny Mac aka John McLoughlin started a project for child victims of cancer, with a center here that brings them in from afar, and that has grown to amazing support for them and a tradition in the town of taking in their families and those of other victims and fundraising for them, to the point that many of the families have opted to move here and put down roots and pass it forward. . . .

But today, our pro sports athletes here live in exclusive gated subdivisions and such, rarely are seen even on boards of nonprofits much less in the trenches working with the needy, and the pros get in the news mainly for arrests for drugs and other misbehavior. The American Dream for them, maybe, but pro sports has become the American Nightmare. And I'm not even getting into how they have subverted campuses.


I remember Spahn (5.00 / 1) (#52)
by jondee on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 02:48:07 PM EST

who, I believe was decorated at the Battle of the Bulge, chuckling about a manager giving hum grief because he "didnt have the guts" to throw at batters heads.

As if he needed to.


: Spahnn was awarded, I think, (5.00 / 1) (#54)
by jeffinalabama on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 03:01:01 PM EST

the Bronze Star for leading his company of combat engineers over the Remagen Bridge over the Rhine. His company was the first US unit on the bridge. Yes, I'd say he had nothing to prove in the courage department.

You cant go wrong with (none / 0) (#28)
by jondee on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:21:54 PM EST

Walter Payton.

And Bernie Williams was-is nothing but class. And I say that as a Yankee hater.


Arnold Palmer aside (none / 0) (#24)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:15:33 PM EST

My teenage daughter love Arnold Palmer tea.

Has no idea who he is though.

: Love that stuff (none / 0) (#29)
by ruffian on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:22:12 PM EST

And when I was a kid my siblings and I loved the local Arnold Palmer mini-putt course. Had no idea he was a real guy!

To what extent does (none / 0) (#25)
by Maryb2004 on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:17:57 PM EST

playing a team sport make it harder to be seen as the "real and likeable" one? I think a lot. Not just because people may love to hate your team but also because this day and age where team loyalty doesn't exist and every athlete will move for money takes off a layer of the "likeable" gloss.

That's why Favre was the closest to Palmer for so long - and why he isn't Palmer.

But Palmer never had to move teams for money because golf isn't set up that way.

Good points (none / 0) (#26)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:19:49 PM EST

Well, some of them get moved for (none / 0) (#30)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:22:21 PM EST

owner's money benefit. Jake Peavy.


Being traded (none / 0) (#34)
by Maryb2004 on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:32:27 PM EST

has never been seen as reflecting a negative about an athlete's character. In fact, being traded and being a good sport about it and working your behind off for your new team is seen as a positive.

It's the free agents who get the bad rap.


: As the athlete inevitably says: it's a business. (5.00 / 1) (#36)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:36:43 PM EST

I like what Wally Joyner sd. when he re-signed with Padres. Believe it or not, my family can actually live on $Xmillion.

That's why I don't even (none / 0) (#42)
by gyrfalcon on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:53:56 PM EST

follow sports anymore. As a near "old codger," I grew up with the Bob Cousy/Bill Russell Boston Celtics, which was pretty much the epitome of team, and most of the players spent their entire careers with the team. I never liked baseball all that much even back then because the players kept getting traded away. Now it's free agency that causes a lot of the turnover, but the constant trades had the same effect. I never could get used to last year's hero being traded away and becoming this year's villain. Feh.


About Latrobe, PA (none / 0) (#39)
by andgarden on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:45:24 PM EST

They don't make Rolling Rock there anymore.

When I think (none / 0) (#40)
by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:46:31 PM EST

about the likeable-ness or not, of Tiger Woods, I think of Augusta....talk about the antithesis of likeable...

Dateline: MIYAZAKI, Japan. Tiger Woods said Tuesday he hasn't changed his mind about playing at the all-male Augusta National Golf Club despite a New York Times editorial calling on him to skip the Masters as a gesture against sexism.
"As I've said before, everyone is entitled to their own opinion," said Woods, who is Japan for this week's Dunlop Phoenix golf tournament.
"I think there should be women members," said Woods. "But it's not up to me. I don't have voting rights, I'm just an honorary member."
The New York Times suggested in an editorial Monday that Woods skip the Masters next year because of the all-male membership at Augusta ...

Nothing Tiger could do, he was just an honorary member! LOL. Reminds me of one president and how his hands are also tied in certain areas.

Who is likeable? Errr, the guy who won Dancing with the Stars a few years ago...football player....Emmitt Smith....but maybe I'm mistaking adorable for likeable....

Also a Gator! (5.00 / 1) (#43)
by Steve M on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 01:00:29 PM EST

One wonders if there are any famous athletes who didn't go to Florida.


Emmitt (none / 0) (#45)
by nycstray on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 01:13:38 PM EST

adorable AND likable. That's what was so fun about him on the show. He even had my mom calling me from the west coast after the show every Mon night, lol!~


: I think the opinion (none / 0) (#48)
by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 01:47:35 PM EST

of likeability is widespread...judging by all of Emmitt's announcer deals.

In Seattle they just call him Junior. (none / 0) (#41)
by oldpro on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 12:48:51 PM EST

peyton (none / 0) (#44)
by jharp on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 01:07:29 PM EST

"this kills me to say it ... but isn't it Peyton Manning?"

I beg your pardon?

Peyton Manning is a good dude and a fantastic quarterback. My son and I have had wonderful times following the Colts.

And Peyton always takes the time to sign autographs. Which, for the kids, is a very big deal

Though Peyton is a conservative, and that does pain me. He donated the max to of all people, Fred Thompson? Ugh!

Tony Gwynn Sr. always signed (none / 0) (#47)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 01:39:33 PM EST

autographs. But I later learned he is not all that pleasant a person and neither is his wife.


: You never, never, never (none / 0) (#53)
by gyrfalcon on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 02:59:27 PM EST

want to really find out what these people are like.
I was offered a chance to meet John Havlicek once, and after some thought, I turned it down. I idolized the guy, and I didn't want to find out he had bad breath or used ugly language or leered at women or any of that kind of thing. I didn't even want to find out he was plain vanilla boring as heck in person.
We're better off not knowing a thing!

im always reminded (none / 0) (#46)
by pitachips on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 01:35:10 PM EST

of btd's "pols are pols" post when someone brings up the issue of athletes and likability. peel back enough layers and everyone, even the most "likeable" athlete, will eventually disappoint you.

why not just enjoy the game/sport? a big part of me wishes tiger comes back and tells everyone to "F*$k off" and wins 8 out of the next 10 majors.

At some point in the past, many of (none / 0) (#51)
by oculus on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 02:20:18 PM EST

my female friends and relatives thought very highly of Lance Armstrong. Some still do. Not sure why, when, how he fell from grace though.

We are all selfish (none / 0) (#55)
by Slado on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 03:28:53 PM EST

We the people who follow these stars and the stars themselves.

We hold on to a selfish illusion that no person could possibly live up to and then have teh gaul to act offended when they don't.

The stars use our adoration and money to become famous and then forget who actually got them there.

Its a fact of life that we build up these people only to enjoy tearing them down and they use our worship of them to become rich.

Tiger will rise again and another famous person will let us down.

Such is life

Arnold seems like a great guy but to hold him up as a standard when that standard is a media creation is misguided.

We can hope these people live up to our standards but we shouldn't be upset when they don't.

I think Phil Mikelson... (none / 0) (#58)
by Jerrymcl89 on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 06:52:35 PM EST

... is the closest to being a modern Arnold Palmer. His flaws as a player actually make people like him more. Of course, athletes today are, under the best of circumstances, pretty far from being regular people, so whereas Arnie or his contemporaries still may have felt like "one of us" (such as the people of Brooklyn famously praying for Gil Hodges as he struggled in a World Series), the best any athlete of today can do is feel like he started out as one of us.

It's Drew Brees (none / 0) (#60)
by Nathan In Nola on Sun Dec 13, 2009 at 09:43:32 PM EST

On the field, he's an incredible quarterback, but off the field, he's even better -- just a blessing to the city of New Orleans. I couldn't imagine a more all-around likeable athlete.

Drew Brees... (none / 0) (#61)
by DancingOpossum on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 09:03:42 AM EST

My SO happens to be in a job where he occasionally gets to meet celebrities. He's also a very good judge of character, a thousand times better than me. Anyhooo, he says Drew Brees was one of the nicest people, celeb or not, he ever met, totally likable and laid-back. He said when he asked for Brees's autograph, for a friend of ours who's a big fan, Brees actually wanted to know a little about the person so he could add a more personal greeting to the autograph. That was a nice touch...

I second the comment about hockey players above, btw -- compared to hockey and football players, hockey players are choir boys! And as jeffinalabama says, NASCAR drivers tend to be the same way. I'm not a NASCAR fan but it's big where I live so I hear a lot of chatter about the various drivers.

As for Peyton Manning, heh -- I can't square his conservative nice-guy image with his appearance on the "Girls Next Door" show, with seminaked girls draped all over him, but hey. Image vs. reality, right?

And for my money (none / 0) (#62)
by DancingOpossum on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 09:05:19 AM EST

I think my Ravens' QB Joe Flacco comes across as truly a nice, down-home, guy-next-door type. Again, could just be image but I haven't seen anything to disabuse me of that...I say the same about Ray Rice but that could well be because I am nuts about him.

Charles Barkley gets my vote. (none / 0) (#63)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Dec 14, 2009 at 12:21:29 PM EST

Some qutoes:

On the goal of the '92 Olympic Dream Team when playing Panama in the Tournament of the Americas: "To get the Canal back."

"It's kinda great to see the Celtics doin well again cuz that was so much fun in my day to go to the Boston Garden and they spit at you and throw things at you and talk about your mom. It sounds like dinner at ("Inside the NBA" co-host) Kenny Smith's house."

On his 17-year old daughter not dating yet: "Thank goodness. I just hope she doesn't start before I go in the Hall of Fame. That way, I won't have to kill anybody before I get inducted."

"We better not be covering (as a host on "Inside the NBA") the Bulls this year. Man, they suck! Bunch of high school kids with $70 million contracts. Damn! I hate my mother for having me too soon."