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Saudi King Cancels Lashes For Female Journalist

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has intervened and canceled the 60 lashes for female journalist Rozanna al-Yami.

She had worked for a network that produced a show called "Red Lines, examining taboos in the Arab world, including extra-marital sex in Saudi Arabia." She wasn't directly involved with the show itself.

The Saudi man who was on the show discussing his adventures was sentenced to 5 years and 1,000 lashes. Three of his friends who appeared with him on the show got two year sentences, and lashes. The cameraman was jailed for two months, but no lashes. LBC, the Lebanon-based Arabic channel which broadcast the show has been shut down.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Still trying to imagine... (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 01:53:53 PM EST
    what it is like in the mind of a person or persons who thinks talking about sex is obscene, but lashes across the back isn't.

    On second thought is is too scary to even imagine.

    Maybe they need some burkha (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 03:25:55 PM EST
    wearing dominitrixes over there.

    Madame Fatima's House of Rendition or something.

    [ Parent ]

    These people are our "friends." (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:11:12 PM EST
    Why else, then, would we be willing to strike repeated blows on behalf of 21st century feudalism?

    The Saudis' behavior has almost nothing to do with Islam, per se, and most everything to do with using said religion as a means to exercise continued political control over an increasingly restless population. We'd be well-advised to plan our military disengagement from the Persian Gulf / South Asia region, and leave the populace to figure out such things for themselves.

    Power for whom? (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by CST on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:21:25 PM EST
    Ironically, I think the Saudi royal family is in general slightly more progressive than the country as a whole.  The local religious leaders are much stricter, and the cultural sentiment as a whole is very conservative.

    At least, that's what I hear from those I consider "in the know" (from the region) about such things, fwiw.

    [ Parent ]

    The House of Saud runs Arabia ... (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 03:11:15 PM EST
    ... as its own personal fiefdom. All political and economic control rests with the Saudi dynasty's family members. Political and economic favor in Saudi Arabia is both granted and removed at personal whim od said family members.

    Further, any political dissent - even that expressed by members of the politically influential families or even the royal family itself - is dealt with in a most severe manner, with means that include capital punishment.

    Where on this earth and by what measure is such an absolute monarchy considered "more progressive"? If anything, the House of Saud's continued repression of the Arabian people can only inevitably drive a desperate populace to the insidious embraces of Islam's most radical elements, since there is no secular political opposition allowed in the country.

    Now, I won't deny that the House of Saud is doubtless far more amenable to our country's own immediate national interests than we could ever hope any Wahhabi mullah would be - but that's not what you said.

    We should remember that Osama bin Laden himself was a son of a politically influential intimate to the House of Saud, and he was neverthless banished from his own country for daring to speak out against the presence of U.S. troops on Arabian soil during the Operation Desert Shield and the Persian Gulf War (1990-1991). How'd that subsequently work out for us?

    Aloha.

    [ Parent ]

    It's all relative (none / 0) (#39)
    by CST on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:39:36 PM EST
    I'm not saying they are progressive by any means.  My point was, the country of Saudi Arabia and it's citizens are more religiously conservative than the royal family.  In ways that have nothing to do with our own national military interests.  You could make the case that as westerners, we have more influence over the actions/opinions of the royal family than the opinions of the Saudi populace.  Not just when it comes to oil, but also when it comes to Human Rights.

    There is a reason this woman was spared.  I seriously doubt it had anything to do with outrage from the Saudi populace.

    [ Parent ]

    You used the term ... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 07:19:56 PM EST
    ... "slightly more progressive" in describing the House of Saud vis a vis the general population. If you don't mean to imply that they are in any way progressive, then I'd suggest that you refrain from using the word.

    And I never implied that the woman was spared a lashing because of fear of a backlash from an outraged populace. She was spared by a king's whim, nothing more and nothing less. And if King Abdullah decided instead to have her publicly executed in a town square tomorrow, it would be done.

    That's the inherent mercurial nature of the House of Saud. The present king's older brother, the late King Khalid bin Abdul Aziz, in 1977 ordered the execution of his own 19-year-old great-niece, Princess Mishaal bint Fahd al Saud, for adultery.

    [ Parent ]

    sure (none / 0) (#83)
    by CST on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 08:20:16 AM EST
    I meant it the way Nixon was "slightly more progressive" than Cheney.  That is to say, not progressive, just not as conservative as the other.

    [ Parent ]
    Could you name your sources? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:39:52 PM EST
    What you say doesn't resemble the Saudi I enjoyed living in for 2 years.

    I believe the US was told to remove its military bases from Saudi after 9/11. So, what are you trying to say about Osama bin Laden being banished for his opposition to the US troops? Work out for us?

    You really confused me with that whole comment.

    [ Parent ]

    Osama bin Laden moved ... (none / 0) (#68)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 07:35:42 PM EST
    ... to Sudan (via Pakistan) in 1992, after King Fahd's goverment repeatedly attempted to suppress his criticism of the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, even at one point resorting to house arrest.

    When bin Laden continued that criticism from Khartoum, the King sent a personal emissary to demand that he hand over his passport, which effectively exiled him and stripped him of his citizenship. The House of Saud also froze his financial assets in that country, and declared him an enemy of the state.

    [ Parent ]

    Rest assured, you're not the only one I've known to say that. I'd just like to hear your personal thoughts about the place.

    My cousin's husband was an engineer working for Fluor in the mid-'90s, and he totally loved living in Saudi Arabia when he was assigned there.

    At the same time, my cousin was quite the opposite, and absolutely, positively, completely  loathed the country - particularly after she was arrested for the offense of being a female driving the family car to the grocery store, on the very same day she first arrived. Once her legal case was fully adjudicated, she split the scene of the crime and returned home to Southern California. Woman-friendly, it ain't.

    [ Parent ]

    Many American women love it there (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 09:37:36 PM EST
    and, there are many reasons why. The pace is so unhurried and relaxing. The people are incredibly warm and trusting. They take care of their children and their elderly with love and respect. They have access to the best of everything in the world.

    Because our primary form of entertainment was dining with friends, the food choices were important...produce you'll never find here, spices that are fresh and so full of aroma, incredible fish (mostly caught spearfishing in the Arab Gulf), giant scallops shipped in from Norway, and on and on.

    The women may be wearing black abayah, but they are wearing huge smiles, designer duds from Paris, and more 18k gold jewelry than you can imagine underneath them.

    People shared with each other. The culture really did provide a sense of security because you never saw anything that made you feel at risk.

    So, so, so much more.
       

    [ Parent ]

    Thank you. (none / 0) (#79)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 11:14:32 PM EST
    It's always interesting to get someone else's perspective on a subject - particularly your description of the food (I love the cuisine from that part of the world). To listen to my cousin, you'd think that Saudi Arabia was the setting for The Kite Runner.

    [ Parent ]
    The food sounds great (none / 0) (#81)
    by otherlisa on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 02:28:15 AM EST
    but as a woman, I'm sorry, no way. It's one of the few countries on this planet that I don't even want to visit.

    [ Parent ]
    Totally agree (none / 0) (#7)
    by mmc9431 on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:15:32 PM EST
    Get off the oil fix and leave them to figure out exactly how they want to live. Right now, there's so much money involved, there's no way any of the leaders want any form of change.

    [ Parent ]
    Wonderful idea and I completely agree (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:07:42 PM EST
    in the meantime we have a whole world running on oil...

    Do you have a actual workable affordable solution to not doing so??

    [ Parent ]

    please don't change the subject (none / 0) (#51)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:13:48 PM EST
    it is not oil.

    [ Parent ]
    the deal (none / 0) (#12)
    by Illiope on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:33:20 PM EST
    a deal was cut in the mid-18th century between a local emir, al Saud, and the leader of the wahhabi sect, al-wahhab. the saudis and the wahhabis needed each other back then, and they need each other now. the saudis needed and still need the religio-politico legitmacy of the ultraconservative wahhabis and the tithe money, and the wahhabis needed the endorsement of the saudis in order to grow their sect and become the "official" brand of islam on the peninsula.  

    [ Parent ]
    Triangulation (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:39:36 PM EST
    forming coalitions with the most reactionary elements in order to consolidate a power base.

    Mullahs do it, Netanyahus do it, yahoos in Texas do it. Let's all fall in love.

    [ Parent ]

    Do you fell the same way about (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:05:49 PM EST
    evangelicals?? Willing to let them slide?

    The Saudis' behavior has almost nothing to do with Islam,


    [ Parent ]
    What do the evangelicals ... (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 08:34:47 PM EST
    ... have to do with the House of Saud? Please don't change the subject.

    And for the record, my personal belief system can be described as two-fold:

    (1) True faith is inherently reflective by nature, endowing one with a personal capacity for critical thought and self-improvement, based upon a core belief that one can always be a better person tomorrow than one is today.

    (2) Blind faith is, in turn, aggressively projective by design; it seduces its adherents with a false sense of personal superiority, denies to them the innate humanity of their fellow man, and provides them with a rationale for their own bigotry and intolerance.

    I'll leave it to you to determine for yourself the category into which I'd place most religious fundamentalists.

    [ Parent ]

    King Hypocrisy-ullah of Saudi Arabia (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Illiope on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:22:25 PM EST
    extra-marital sex in Saudi Arabia: you will be whipped like it is 1529.

    saudi-prince extra-marital sex in america: name your fetish, your pious countrymen will never be the wiser. (wink, wink)

    and the cameraman gets jail time? nice 'justice' system you guys have there.
     

    I sense Hillary's hand in this. (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Sweet Sue on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:57:28 PM EST
     I don't know if she pressured the King but this is the kind of thing that Clinton, as Secretary of State, would know about and pay attention too.
    Oh and Happy Birtday, Madame Secretary.

    In all seriousness (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by shoephone on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 03:42:57 PM EST
    Is it even possible to survive 1,000 lashes? Because it sounds like certain death by torture to me.

    And for what? Talking about sex toys?

    Sheesh.

    they also just issued (none / 0) (#1)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 01:44:14 PM EST
    a rather interesting travel advisory for their citizens traveling abroad. they include:

    • Do not treat your children harshly or kiss them on the mouth in public places in order to avoid having legal action taken against you on grounds of mistreatment.

    • Avoid talking with children or adolescents over the Internet, inviting them to your house alone, or being alone with them.

    • # If a domestic dispute reaches the security authorities, the one who caused it will be punished (imagine that)


    That's rich... (none / 0) (#10)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:28:39 PM EST
    the tyranny all-stars over in Saudi A think we've gone overboard with the sexual predator hysteria..."don't talk to any kids!".

    [ Parent ]
    I not clear (none / 0) (#16)
    by Capt Howdy on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 03:00:59 PM EST
    on why you would invite a child to your house alone.

    [ Parent ]
    Not these days... (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 03:21:02 PM EST
    for the reasons the Saudis are warning their people about...but when I was a kid I used to go door to door asking if anyone had chores that needed doing for extra cash.  And then there is babysitting.

    Different time though...now I go to my niece's soccer games and get the suspicious look from the parents since I don't have a kid on the team. I thought of that when I saw your post about the warning to Saudis in the USA...we're as paranoid about sexual predators as the Saudis are about seeing cleavage.

    [ Parent ]

    Teachers have to worry about (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 03:50:38 PM EST
    patting a kid on the back these days in this country. Sick.

    And who are we to bitch about the Saudis? That pos Bush Texacuted 150 people and all it was was a career boost for him.

    [ Parent ]

    Sick indeed... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:51:31 PM EST
    Our house is far from in order and has our own brand of authoritarian ailment, no doubt...but I don't see the harm of calling the Saudis out on their whackness...in some respects they make the USofA look like a god damn Utopia...we don't lash Dr. Ruth.

    [ Parent ]
    What century are we in! (none / 0) (#2)
    by mmc9431 on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 01:47:41 PM EST
    When I read stuff like this I have to pinch myself to remember exactly what century I'm living in.

    It's sad to think that their are still so many people in power that use religion as a whip to control the people. Equally sad is that the  people are willing to go along with it.

    I guess there is (none / 0) (#3)
    by Wile ECoyote on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 01:48:43 PM EST
    another way to go after the media.  Obama may take note.

    [ Parent ]
    Well, it's their way of life (none / 0) (#11)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:31:17 PM EST
    They detest the way we live, too.

    [ Parent ]
    When we start chopping heads and hands off (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:03:05 PM EST
    stoning females for cheating on their husbands, hanging gays and allow fathers to kill their daughters because she embarrassed him....

    let me know.

    Until then I will think our ways right and their ways are not acceptable.

    [ Parent ]

    No, we just have people shoot people in (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:06:21 PM EST
    churches for being liberal or an abortion provider, the latter probably okay with Muslims of the type PPJ is writing about.................

    [ Parent ]
    Since that isn't state (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:08:19 PM EST
    sponsored, why do you try and make it equivalent?

    Trying to be disagreeable with me, or western culture in general?

    [ Parent ]

    Honor killings aren't state sponsored (none / 0) (#34)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:18:36 PM EST
    even if they aren't prosecuted afterwards.

    Trying to be disagreeable with me, or western culture in general?

    Nope, pointing out that we have Dominionists in our Western culture(which should be capitalized as a sign of respect) who have a similar POV, albeit they don't talk about amputation as much as a punishment, and if it's disagreeable to remind you of their existence, then that's a burden I will gladly bear:

    Rousas John Rushdoony (1916-2001) was the intellectual founder of Christian Reconstructionism, a postmillennial form of Theocratic Dominion Theology. Most mainstream Christians reject Rushdoony's views and other forms of Dominion theology as quite radical.[8]

    According to Rushdoony and other Reconstructionists including Gary North and Greg Bahnsen, the idea of dominion drawn from Genesis 1:28 implied a theonomy ("rule of the law of God"), in which observation of their own strict form of Christianity would be required of all citizens, and moral sins ranging from blasphemy to homosexuality would be punishable by death. Rushdoony wrote that "[m]an is summoned to create the society God requires,"[50] "bringing all things under the dominion of Christ the King."[51] A significant influence on Rushdoony and the theonomists came from Calvinist philosophers and theologians, including the presuppositionalism of Cornelius Van Til (1895-1987), though Van Til himself disavowed any entanglement of his work with political movements.

    In regard to the influence of Reconstructionism upon the broader Christian Right, sociologist and professor of religion William Martin wrote,

        It is difficult to assess the influence of Reconstructionist thought with any accuracy. Because it is so genuinely radical, most leaders of the Religious Right are careful to distance themselves from it. At the same time, it clearly holds some appeal for many of them. One undoubtedly spoke for others when he confessed, 'Though we hide their books under the bed, we read them just the same.' In addition, several key leaders have acknowledged an intellectual debt to the theonomists. Jerry Falwell and D. James Kennedy have endorsed Reconstructionist books. Rushdoony has appeared on Kennedy's television program and the 700 Club several times. Pat Robertson makes frequent use of 'dominion' language; his book, The Secret Kingdom, has often been cited for its theonomy elements; and pluralists were made uncomfortable when, during his presidential campaign, he said he 'would only bring Christians and Jews into the government,' as well as when he later wrote, 'There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world.' And Jay Grimstead, who leads the Coalition on Revival, which brings Reconstructionists together with more mainstream evangelicals, has said, 'I don't call myself [a Reconstructionist],' but 'A lot of us are coming to realize that the Bible is God's standard of morality . . . in all points of history . . . and for all societies, Christian and non-Christian alike. . . . It so happens that Rushdoony, Bahnsen, and North understood that sooner.' He added, 'There are a lot of us floating around in Christian leadership James Kennedy is one of them-who don't go all the way with the theonomy thing, but who want to rebuild America based on the Bible.'[8](p. 354)

     Link

    That's 510 words, I hope it isn't a strain on your eyes this time.......

    [ Parent ]

    What it is useless... (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:01:05 PM EST
    Honor killings are part of a culture that is state sponsored. Go on and give us a laugh by denying that and defending it.

    [ Parent ]
    Characterizing Islam by honor killings (none / 0) (#57)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:02:17 PM EST
    is like characterizing Christianity by the folks I just  talked about, and your response is a good example of a non-sequitur, but I realize you're perhaps not feeling yourself today, nothing wrong with that.

    Go on and give us a laugh by denying that and defending it.

    I've never defended honor killings, but then I'm not looking under my bed every night for an Islamicist jihadi ready to cut my head off, something I always remind myself when I respond to your comments here

    FWIW, if you are able to, google someone like Mavis Leno who was talking about such stuff in Afghanistan long before 9/11, about honor killings and womens' rights, before they were the concerns of social liberals and the like.

    It's not rib-tickling material, but thankfully we will always have you in case there is ever a shortage of something to have a laugh about.

    153 words, FYI.

    [ Parent ]

    Your defense (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:08:47 PM EST
    of honor killings by claiming they are not part of a state sponsored culture is risible.

    See if you can find a few thousand words to fling out and try to cover up your statement.

    And while you may not find a radical Muslim under your bed it is quite possible that there may be one down the street.

    [ Parent ]

    Again, you spin and attempt to reframe (none / 0) (#63)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:36:40 PM EST
    my explanation as a defense, or perhaps you're a touch grouchy today.

    I'll restate it again in plain English, as someone once said:

    And during the few moments that we have left, . . . We want to talk right down to earth in a language that everybody here can easily understand."

    I am against honor killings, period.  Here in this country they are usually termed in flagrante delico laws, but since those are historical and not a problem at the time, I don't waste much energy, even when they were state-sanctioned, Texas being an example that comes to mind.

    I do not believe that the Islamic countries where honor killing take place are state-sponsored until the aftermath, and unless you have evidence that the Saudis, etc., have some sort of government program to encourage such things beforehand, which doesn't seem likely to me.

    I wouldn't be surprised to learn that post-killing honor killings are upheld by the state, one would have to be a throwback to the hippie era to think otherwise of the states under discussion.

    Does it disgust me?  Yes, but we have an ongoing problem with domestic violence that may not fall under the rubric of "honor killings".

    Therefore our hands aren't completely clean until we live in a society where domestic violence is treated with the same disdain and punishment as the perpetrators of honor killing themselves deserve wherever they are.

    But of course, you'll stripe my comment of nuance and claim that I hate America.  

    Fair enough.

    I'm sorry if that muddies your flip-flops, as we say here in California.

    And while you may not find a radical Muslim under your bed it is quite possible that there may be one down the street.

    Actually, it's funny you should say it, because down the street from me is a meeting place for Nizari Muslims, a very scary bunch, if the Wiki entry is correct:

    The Shī`a Imami Ismā`īlī Tariqah also referred to as the Ismā`īlī or Nizārī (Arabic: النزاريون‎ an-Nizāriyyūn), are a path (tariqah) of Shī`a Islām, emphasizing social justice, pluralism, and human reason within the framework of the mystical tradition of Islam. The Nizari are the second largest branch of Shia Islam and form the majority of the Ismā`īlī (Arabic: اسماعیلیه‎). There are an estimated 12 to 15 million Nizari Ismā`īlī residing in more than 25 countries and territories.

    Nizari teachings affirm the Islamic tenet that there is "No god but the One God, and Muhammad is the final Prophet of God". Along with other Shī`a, Nizari believe that following the Prophet's death his relative Ali Ibn Talib was selected by divine decree to succeed the Prophet as Imam in the institution of Imamate (Imama) which continues in an unbroken hereditary chain through Ali Ibn Talib, and Fatimah Az Zahra (the Prophet Muhammad's daughter) to the present day, under the aegis of His Highness Prince Shah Karim Al-Husayni, the Aga Khan IV, their forty ninth Imam.

    Human society is believed to be in a state of continuous flux, the role of the Imam is to find permanent solutions to issues, and challenges raised by increasingly rapid changes in the world; to care for the spiritual and material well being of their followers as well as humanity at large, and to safeguard the rights of the individual to spiritual, social, and scientific enquiry.

    Optional Link

    As it happens, I knew one of them who was a prosperous mini-mart owner, the most radical thing I can imagine him doing is insisting that everyone drive a Mercedes-Benz.

    Now, PPJ, you've brought up the subject, how sure are you that there isn't a radical Islamicist living down the street from you?  Do you actually know any of your neighbors enough that you could trust them in case your area was the target of a terrorist attack?

    I'm reminded of the public announcement common on weekday nights:

    "It's 10:00 PM.  Do you know where your children are?"

    Now, I'm not paranoid, but..........

    Six hundredsomething words, I hope you're keeping clear of eye strain.......

    [ Parent ]

    So you aren't for them (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:43:21 PM EST
    but you aren't against them.....???

    You'll have to answer for your own neighborhood.

    [ Parent ]

    I've been living with them on my street for (none / 0) (#65)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:53:35 PM EST
    13 years onward, PPJ, and they aren't Sunni like our friends in the KSA or bin Lauden, they are Shia', so it would be to your benefit to read, absorb and think instead of read and reply.  

    If I detected suspicious activity I'd contact the right authorities, you'd probably advise me to go through their trash at night to see if they throw away anything suspicious, like banners reading "Death to America", etc.

    I think you'd even enjoy doing that in the name of patriotism, FWIW.

    Anyway, you haven't told us your secret to make sure there isn't one down the street you live, or are you just hoping there isn't one to worry about?

    [ Parent ]

    Well, I'm gald to know you (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 07:31:58 PM EST
    know the two main branches  of Islam...

    What I really find funny is your attacks on any comment that calls into question the cultural activities of many Muslims.

    Came to bury Caesar, eh?

    [ Parent ]

    Heh (none / 0) (#70)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 08:02:45 PM EST
    What I really find funny is your attacks on any comment that calls into question the cultural activities of many Muslims.

    But what is funnier is that I clearly stated that I'm against the kind of cultural activity under discussion, along with your need to characterize anything than less 100% agreement as some sort of attack upon you.  

    I wouldn't play the martyr card the next time, PPJ, you're too thin-skinned for it to be a winning hand for you.  Just some friendly advice, same as always.

    and what you find funny is your business,  not mine.

     Well, I'm gald to know you (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:31:58 PM PDT
    know the two main branches  of Islam...

    I'm gald as well, PPJ.

    Came to bury Caesar, eh?

    Some buried Caesar, I hope to bury bullsh*t.

    [ Parent ]

    Well, it is hard to say what you (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 10:10:00 PM EST
    say... first you do, then you don't and then you provide a history lesson excusing such minor cultural activities as stoning females, hanging gays and honor killings..

    [ Parent ]
    No, I just open my mouth and the words come out (none / 0) (#78)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 10:36:20 PM EST
    first you do, then you don't

    In your mind, and other imaginary places

    then you provide a history lesson excusing such minor cultural activities as stoning females

    Except stoning females hasn't been mentioned in this thread until now, so how can I have provided a history lesson on a subject neither of us mentioned until now?

    I'm absolutely against stoning females and males, I'd be against stoning you because of all the damage to the stones if they were thrown at your head, even inanimate objects deserve a better fate than to be broken against an impenetrable barrier........

    I thought I was either trying to be disagreeable with you or Western culture, that was your original charge.

    Can't you make up your mind about these things?

    hanging gays and honor killings..

    Matthew Shepard, gay-bashing(as if unorganized killing by violence is far better than state-organized hanging for the same "offense"); domestic abuse leading to death, yes, we have our own problems, funny how you don't like to mention them in your inventory of what's wrong with the world.

    You still haven't told you deal with the possibility of a terrorist living down the street. or should we just curl up in a ball and shiver in fear once a week?

    Again, google "Maevis Leno" and get back to us.

    You're seeming interested in promoting division, not unity, almost like you're a Soviet spy left over from Stalinist times, and you can't break your training.............

    [ Parent ]

    Try reading the thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 09:44:40 AM EST
    before making claims.

    [ Parent ]
    Funny, I was about to tell you the same thing. (none / 0) (#89)
    by Dark Avenger on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 10:02:25 AM EST
    You haven't denied being a former Soviet agent, so it must be true, eh?

    [ Parent ]
    Dont be a dumbas* (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:24:55 PM EST
    our ways may be "righter", but they're far from right alot of the time.

    What is this, my country right or wrong, again?

    [ Parent ]

    That they detest our secular (none / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:15:47 PM EST
    culture, freedom, rights, etc., doesn't mean that their culture is anywhere near the 21st century.

    Why can't you just say they are wrong without having to add that (in too many cases)gays here can't marry but aren't hung.

    Our shortfalls, indeed western civilization's shortfalls, have been working themselves out.

    You cannot say the same for Islam. It has not been reformed.

    [ Parent ]

    Oh, good grief! (none / 0) (#38)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:33:09 PM EST
    You ever been there?

    As a very independent American woman, I loved every minute of my two years living in Jubail. Our project was mixed housing with the Saudi's occupying as many houses as the ex-pats, so we had to follow the rules. We socialized constantly with the Saudi families. They are happy people.

    If another country were to pick a few really bad episodes in our culture (Manson killings, Nicole Simpson murder, Susan Smith, Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy) and judge us entirely on those events as though it was the heart of who all of us are, we'd look so much worse.

    I enjoyed those two years so much, and found my acceptance of their culture in the genuinely decent people I knew.

    [ Parent ]

    Have I ever lived in ex-pat housing (2.00 / 1) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:20:29 PM EST
    in SA? No. Are you claiming this makes you an expert on Islam? On SA?

    That they are happy people may be true. Do you say happiness should be traded for women's rights? Gay's not hung? Thieves not having their hands chopped off? Honor killings tolerated?

    Your attempt at finding the two cultures equal is laughable, to say the very least.

    [ Parent ]

    No one claimed equal (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 09:41:18 PM EST
    But, it appears I know a heck of a lot more about their real world than you do.

    You should research more.

    [ Parent ]

    One gay hanging (none / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 06:05:47 PM EST
    One stoning

    One honor killing

    is too much for me.

    [ Parent ]

    But (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by NYShooter on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 08:40:49 PM EST
    2,000,000 fellow citizens living as guests of The State under conditions that would make HE*L seem like the Bellagio is not only condoned by us, but applauded. Each "guest," I'm sure, having had the wherewithal in intellect and funds to fairly argue his case vs. the endless might and wealth of The State, are unquestionably guilty-as-charged.

    For that there can be no doubt. After all, We all are "equal" under the law. We even have a statue at the crossroad of L.I Sound & The Hudson.....in case there was any doubt.

    G*d bless America.  


    [ Parent ]

    Your counterpoint... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:01:36 PM EST
    is appreciated, as always...it should go without saying the vast majority of people are genuinely decent, no matter what f*cked up system you're living in and under...easy to forget the good that goes with the bad when the bad draws all the attention.

    [ Parent ]
    Maybe it's just me (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:07:37 PM EST
    but Im more than a little mistrustful of the emphasis on the way media reports atrocities in Muslim countries as opposed to the way it gives minimal coverage to the atrocious treatment of people in other "trading partner" countries like India and China.

    Is the treatment of women in Afghanistan and SA worse than the way Untouchable men, women and children treated in India, for instance?

    Or the way citizens in Gaza were recently dealt with?

    There's definatly a propagandistic element to all of this, IMO.

    [ Parent ]

    The difference, among other things, (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:57:02 PM EST
    is that Islam is an expansionist religion with radicals killing other Islamic sects and attacking the west both physically and culturally.

    [ Parent ]
    I was recently in Egypt. (none / 0) (#5)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 01:59:00 PM EST
    I was both unnerved and in awe.  I thought this part of the Muslim world was more "Western-centric".  I was wrong (that's not a judgement).  I found women in burkas and hajibs throughout.  Once again, I'm not judging, but it does make one think about the influence of religion in a state and in a society.  
     

    All things being relative, of course. (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 02:34:06 PM EST
    While our women don't wear burkas, it wasn't all that long ago, historically speaking, that it was considered vulgar for a man to appear in public without a hat, or a woman to show her ankles in public.

    We need only recall the ludicrous "death panel" discussions of last August to remind ourselves that we're not all that different from secular Middle Eastern countries like Egypt, Lebanon, Israel or Turkey, in that we also struggle daily with thorny issues involving separation of state and church.  

    Further, let's also remember that we're really only one generation or two removed from "blue laws," which greatly inhibited the formal conduct of commerce on Sundays - or even prohibited it outright in certain sections of the country - and which were rigorously enforced by local authorities. After all, by such reasoning, Sunday was to be the Lord's day and not yours. I think that you and I would agree that as a country, we need not ever go back there.

    (Speaking for myself, the demise of blue laws is another reason to give thanks to the NFL.)

    Aloha.

    [ Parent ]

    Yup. (none / 0) (#18)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 03:14:58 PM EST
    My comment about my experience in Egypt is as much an observation about religion in Muslim countries, as well as in Western countries.  Although I admit to the misconception of believing Egypt was Western-centric.

    [ Parent ]
    Lucky Hawaii (none / 0) (#21)
    by sj on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 03:26:00 PM EST
    Blue laws are alive and well  throughout  the US.

    But Colorado recently eliminated the liquor-store-closed-on-Sunday blue law.

    Naturally, I'm not living there right now...

    [ Parent ]

    Do you really want to compare (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:03:18 PM EST
    not being able to by 6% beer with 60 lashes?

    [ Parent ]
    Okay, so I got distracted with a change (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by sj on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:28:37 PM EST
    in my home state heretofore unknown to me.  And no, that wasn't my intention.

    But Don's larger point (I think) is that we're not really in a position to feel too smug about our way of life.  All things being relative, of course.

    [ Parent ]

    My point is that it makes no sense to (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:01:04 PM EST
    bring up our much, much, much, much, much, much smaller problems every time someone points out the much, much, much, much, much, much larger problems associated with many aspects of Islam.

    And no. All things are not relative. A stoning is not just another divorce.


    [ Parent ]

    You just tell yourself that (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by sj on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 08:26:42 PM EST
    Let yourself ignore that Matthew Shepard happened here. Jack Price happened here.  David Johnson happened here.  Joseph Rocha happened in our military.

    But you just go on feeling smug and superior.  It's what you're going to do anyway.

    [ Parent ]

    Look for ice in hell (none / 0) (#82)
    by otherlisa on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 02:37:38 AM EST
    Because I have to agree with JimakkaPPJ at least partly.

    Yes, all of the things you mention (Matthew Shepard, et al) are terrible things. Yes, homophobia is a serious problem. Yes, America does a lot of very bad things. But in this particular area, no, I'm not going to go with cultural relativism here. Saudi Arabia engages in systematic and severe discrimination against women. It's enshrined in the legal system. Women are second class citizens by law.

    If you wanted to make a comparison to say, Jim Crow laws, I'd buy that, but in spite of the pernicious and ingrained racism (and sexism) here, it is not legal to practice discrimination against protected groups. In spite of abuses and peoples' personal prejudices, we have a legal system that protects us against these things as opposed to one that is a deliberate mechanism of oppression.

    [ Parent ]

    it is not legal to practice discrimination (none / 0) (#84)
    by Dark Avenger on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 08:25:29 AM EST
    Tell that to the Justice of the Peace in Louisiana who refuses to marry couples who are of two different race.

    (AP) NEW ORLEANS A Louisiana justice of the peace said he refused to issue a marriage license to an interracial couple out of concern for any children the couple might have. Keith Bardwell, justice of the peace in Tangipahoa Parish, says it is his experience that most interracial marriages do not last long.

    "I'm not a racist. I just don't believe in mixing the races that way," Bardwell told the Associated Press on Thursday. "I have piles and piles of black friends. They come to my home, I marry them, they use my bathroom. I treat them just like everyone else."

    Optional Link.

    Despite PPJs' best efforts to convince himself otherwise, I believe we have a better culture than that of the KSA.

    At the same time, I believe in standing up to the problems we have here, not sweeping them under the rug in our rush to claim the mantel of American exceptionalism.


    [ Parent ]

    I was going to mention that case (none / 0) (#93)
    by otherlisa on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 01:52:10 PM EST
    But it is an anomaly, not established law across the country. The tide of justifiable outrage (and yeah, I signed those petitions too) is indicative of how far out of the legal mainstream this is. It's a big story BECAUSE it's rare.

    This doesn't speak to peoples' attitudes or actions -- obviously racism exists, homophobia and sexism exist, and people do terrible things based on those belief systems. But they are thankfully no longer embedded in our system of law. At least not for the most part. You have to reach for things like disparity in crack versus powder cocaine to find laws that have racial implications, but it's still one step removed from out-and-out Jim Crow laws. Women still make 77 cents on the dollar but this isn't enshrined in our legal system. It simply isn't the same.

    [ Parent ]

    Jim Crow laws afre long gone (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 09:57:49 AM EST
    Shari law is still in effect.

    [ Parent ]
    Yes our culture is superior in all (none / 0) (#87)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 09:56:14 AM EST
    respects to the Islamic theocracies.

    And I have never claimed it is perfect.

    But why can't you, and many others on what I call the "Left" discuss and condemn the problems within the Islamic theocracies without always bringing our problems in?

    Look, Baptists aren't driving car bombs to Methodist Churches. Killing a daughter for dating a Yankee is not a Southern thing. And no matter how nasty, a divorce courtroom is not the same as a stoning on the edge of town.

    It is past time for the world to stand up and tell the Islamic theocracies, and I include Turkey, Egypt and Indonesia in these, "It is time for you to reform yourselves. Some of your actions are not acceptable anywhere, anyplace or anytime."

    I was hopeful that Obama would use his bully pulpit to do that. Instead he has pandered for more approval from the Muslim leaders.

    [ Parent ]

    But this JP from LA seems to believe (none / 0) (#90)
    by Dark Avenger on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 10:21:43 AM EST
    he can act like they're still in force.

    Look, Baptists aren't driving car bombs to Methodist Churches.

    No, we only have fanatics who shoot people up in a church in Knoxville because he assumes(perhaps rightly) that they're liberals, we have people doing fund-raising for a alleged murderer in Kansas who shot an abortion provider in a church.

    And no matter how nasty, a divorce courtroom is not the same as a stoning on the edge of town.

    A divorce courtroom isn't what I had in mind when I talked about domestic violence that is still a problem in this country, and isn't any better because unlike the stoning you cite, isn't based in any cultural beliefs linked to the dominant religion here, Christianity.

    It is past time for the world to stand up and tell the Islamic theocracies, and I include Turkey, Egypt and Indonesia in these, "It is time for you to reform yourselves. Some of your actions are not acceptable anywhere, anyplace or anytime."

    Funny how you lump Turkey in with the other two countries, because Turkey was founded as a non-secular Turkish republic, in fact much of the political tension there is that the mullahs and imams have no official role in the government, unlike the two other countries you mention, which aren't theocracies the way Iran is.

    Again, google Maevis Leno, and you'd see that there is pressure on the Left for these countries to give up their shameful treatment of women and their barbaric customs that you mention.

    I was hopeful that Obama would use his bully pulpit to do that. Instead he has pandered for more approval from the Muslim leaders.

    Yes, he was telling them what they wanted to hear:

    "We are inspired by the fact that America has elected a man worthy of the values it represents and above all a human being capable of understanding that a nation, like each of us, is never perfect. Where and when a nation finds that it has deviated from its values, it is the duty of its leaders (and in a democracy, also its citizens) to bring the ship of State back to its intended course. By acknowledging past mistakes in US policy, you not only answer your people's call for change and accountability, you ultimately serve your nation's and people's security for by addressing the legitimate grievances our nations and peoples have suffered as a result of such mistakes, you ultimately defeat the terrorists who purport to manipulate such grievances as a means towards their vicious ends. I wish you every success in promoting peace within and among our civilizations."

    Unmandatory Link

    Here's what some non-Muslims thought about it:

    Archbishop Jeanbart said it was good that Obama spoke in defense of Christian minorities in the Middle East, saying they must have a minimum amount of freedom and dignity.

    The archbishop also expressed optimism after the Obama administration decided to open more direct talks with Syria.

    "I think the United States will realize that Syria, if it is well-treated, may be an element of pacification and equilibrium in the Middle East," he said.

    Jesuit Father Samir Khalil Samir, who directs a Christian research center in Lebanon, said Obama's speech was generally a good one, aimed at making friends in the region and opening up possibilities of dialogue.

    "Certainly it was very positive, and the image of the United States was improved in the eyes of Muslims," he said.

    But Father Samir also faulted the president for failing to make a critique of Islam, and said it was equally important for Muslims to be challenged on some issues. He said Obama's passing references to the situation of Christian minorities were too brief to be significant.

    In Nigeria, which has one of the largest Muslim populations in the world, Archbishop John Olorunfemi Onaiyekan of Abuja said Christian and Muslim leaders were invited by the U.S. embassy to watch Obama deliver his speech on live TV and discuss it afterward.

    Their reaction was generally positive, although some said they wanted to "wait and see what really happens," he said.

    "I read the speech twice. It was definitely miles and miles away from Bush. Obama understands there are problems, and I hope and pray he will extend that attitude to other problems that America has with the rest of the world, not just Muslims," he said.

    The archbishop added: "And when I hear him speak so well about the value of human life, I want to ask Obama: Is an unborn baby human life? And if he is, how does it affect his position?"

    Optional Link

    It's not 2000 words, FWIW.

    [ Parent ]

    However many words... (none / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 11:10:06 AM EST
    they don't relate..

    Our culture is not state supported to do the things you write about. The Islamic Theocracies have a culture that is state supported that tolerates these things.

    But keep arguing...you prove my point about you.

    [ Parent ]

    Of course not, any answer I make to your post (none / 0) (#92)
    by Dark Avenger on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 12:04:43 PM EST
    isn't related, otherwise you'd have to do something different, like respond to them.

    Our culture is not state supported to do the things you write about. The Islamic Theocracies have a culture that is state supported that tolerates these things.

    Really, a JP in Louisiana isn't state-supported?

    All I'm saying is that we aren't some paradise when women suffer assault at the hands or feet of their domestic partner more frequently than you'd like to think occurs.

    We do have a much higher rate of violence and murder than many other countries around the world, etc. We do have some examples of homophobic violence like Matthew Shepard, racist violence like James Byrd, domestic terrorism as in the Tyler, TX. gas plot, and the nihilistic carnage wrought at Columbine High that are rare in other civilized countries.  We even have a region of the country where many violent offenses occur at a higher rate than America as a whole.  Care to take a guess as to which region I'm referring to?

    Just because the activities I wrote about aren't state supported doesn't mean that the victims suffer any the less because it didn't happened at a state-sanctioned stoning, or that there aren't problems worth working on because the state doesn't encourage them as it did in the past<subliminal tag>lynchings, race riots.</subliminal tag>

    Besides, being on a moral high horse has worked so well in as a tactic in convincing to switch others to our way of thinking........

    But keep arguing...you prove my point about you.

    Which is why you feel compelled to put your two cents in after every comment I make.

    That certainly makes sense, as just leaving my words uninterpreted might allow some to be fooled as to what I'm all about, without you giving your invaluable input.

    If you dance to the tune, don't complain about the piper.

    [ Parent ]

    I will be happy to cut you a deal (none / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 06:00:28 PM EST
    You don't comment on my comments and I won't comment on yours.

    [ Parent ]
    Really, that's generous of you (none / 0) (#96)
    by Dark Avenger on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 06:25:32 PM EST
    but I would be taking advantage of an old man's frailty, and that's not what I'm about.

    [ Parent ]
    Okay (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 07:57:13 PM EST
    But don't complain when I answer your comments.

    And your concern over my health is touching, unneeded and unbelieved.

    [ Parent ]

    With the material you've given me to work (none / 0) (#98)
    by Dark Avenger on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 08:04:50 PM EST
    with lately, your answers are worth their weight in gold, if you know what I mean.

    And your concern over my health is touching, unneeded and unbelieved.

    As were your concerns that I was "obsessed" about you and should seek professional help.

    Touche!

    [ Parent ]

    The point is that (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:02:13 PM EST
    we are removed....

    [ Parent ]
    Why are you afraid to judge?? (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:03:48 PM EST


    [ Parent ]
    I respect the right of all people (none / 0) (#32)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:16:22 PM EST
    to practice faith in the manner they find best for themselves.  This includes my respect for Christians, Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, Hindus, etc.  

    [ Parent ]
    Does that include (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:17:59 PM EST
    the right for them breaking the law in the US?? Say, stoning for cheating wives????

    [ Parent ]
    You won't find (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Inspector Gadget on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 09:47:52 PM EST
    events like James Byrd, Jr. happening in Saudi.  

    You go right ahead and judge while ignoring how little right this culture has to judge anyone else.

    [ Parent ]

    Now you're being an (none / 0) (#35)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:24:46 PM EST
    AxxHxxx (word deleted out of respect for Jeralyn).  

    [ Parent ]
    It was an easy question (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:04:41 PM EST
    Your lack of an answer is the answer.

    [ Parent ]
    You're brilliant! (none / 0) (#53)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:24:27 PM EST
    And an AxxHxxx!
    eom.

    [ Parent ]
    Thank you (1.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:03:30 PM EST
    And your lack of an answer and the personal insult defines you quite well.

    Sadly though, brilliant doesn't come to my mind.

    [ Parent ]

    Meanwhile (none / 0) (#37)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:29:58 PM EST
    you and red America foist on the country an eejit who cant even be bothered to insure that the people he 'an Karl 'an Alberto Texacute get a fair trial with adequate representation.

    Cast the mote out of your own eye.

    [ Parent ]

    Bush served 8 years (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:06:14 PM EST
    and your point is.....that is forever?

    When is the King up for reelection?

    [ Parent ]

    Go ahead and regime change (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 05:23:35 PM EST
    him. That is, if the GOP major contributers havnt sold SA ownership rights to pur armed forces.

    [ Parent ]
    One more time (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 06:25:15 PM EST
    Bush is gone.

    Let me know when the King has an election.


    [ Parent ]

    And you have evidence that elections will (none / 0) (#71)
    by Dark Avenger on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 08:12:31 PM EST
    be cancelled because of what?

    [ Parent ]
    ah, it's good to be the king! (none / 0) (#24)
    by cpinva on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 03:45:31 PM EST
    realistically speaking, 60 and 1,000 lashes would effectively be a death sentence, if actually carried out. had they done so, inevitably, pictures would have been taken and sneaked out, probably via the internet, creating a huge PR problem for the country.

    possibly, even a fair percentage of the population would have found it repellent enough to get upset, as opposed to only the usual western suspects.

    if they'd just sentenced them to waterboarding, everything would've been fine.

    That King - a real Prince (none / 0) (#31)
    by lentinel on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 04:11:56 PM EST
    I don't want no trouble - but isn't this the actual spot  where the s.o.b.s who attacked the trade center formulated and launched the whole plot?

    Our good good buddies, our brothers in oil, the Saudis.

    why yes, yes it is. (none / 0) (#80)
    by cpinva on Mon Oct 26, 2009 at 11:15:09 PM EST
    don't want no trouble - but isn't this the actual spot  where the s.o.b.s who attacked the trade center formulated and launched the whole plot?

    then of course, we attacked afghanistan because, um, well.............we could! oddly enough, no one actually directly involved in the planning of the 9/11 operation was ever in afghanistan.

    i minor detail.

    [ Parent ]

    I agree with jondee (none / 0) (#85)
    by DancingOpossum on Tue Oct 27, 2009 at 09:34:53 AM EST
    I'm more than a little mistrustful of the emphasis on the way media reports atrocities in Muslim countries as opposed to the way it gives minimal coverage to the atrocious treatment of people in other "trading partner" countries like India and China.

    Or better yet, Israel, which commits atrocities on a daily basis that make a public lashing look like child's play, but somehow these events never make it to the front page of any U.S. newspaper. I looked in vain for U.S. media coverage of the Goldstone report, for instance.

    I really enjoyed Inspector Gadget's insights into Saudi Arabia, thank you for those. It's a nice counterpoint to the hysterical screaming about crazed sword-wielding jihadists we hear far too much about.

    There's a definite propagandistic bent here. It's also why no U.S. newspaper can bring itself to call the Honduran coup what it is.