Friday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:03:30 PM EST
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This Greenberg poll of Hondurans is pretty funny to me:

Nearly four months after Honduran President Mel Zelaya was forced from office, he retains considerable public support, according to a new survey by Greenberg Quinlan Rosner. [. . .] Two-thirds approve of Zelaya’s performance as president. Nineteen percent rated his performance as “excellent” and another 48 percent as “good.”

(Emphasis supplied.) Zelaya has not been acting as President for the past 4 months and his performance ratings are high. Ironic. He clearly is a beneficiary of revulsion at the coup. Yet, Hondurans also want the scheduled November elections to go forward (Zelaya is opposed to them.) And get this finding - "The survey also found that [. . .] 83 percent have a negative impression of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez."

Zelaya is popular, but can not run. The election he opposes is popular. And one of his main international supporters, Hugo Chavez, is loathed. A positive endgame for Zelaya is not clear to me here. There will be an election and then it will be over.

In any event, this is an Open Thread.

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Friday Morning Open Thread | 42 comments (42 topical)

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Is Zelaya still at the Brazilian embassy? (none / 0) (#1)
by oculus on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:08:04 PM EST

Heh (none / 0) (#2)
by Steve M on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:12:39 PM EST

Before the so-called coup Zelaya's approval rating was around 30%. This may be the best thing that ever happened to him!

The best barometer (none / 0) (#3)
by MKS on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:16:14 PM EST

is the what the other Central American countries believe is appropriate.

The coup was wrong but Zelaya will not be President for much longer.

Politics in modern Central America can be very confused and confusing....A mystery wrapped in an enigma, etc.

And, Chavez fouled up the last Presidential Election in Mexico. The very liberal Mayor of Mexico City, Lopez Obrador (AMLO), was ahead of PAN's conservative Calderon until Chavez threw his support to AMLO....Bye, bye AMLO. Chavez is not the darling of the Left in Latin America that many think he is.

The PAN may actually be better for Mexico now.

The U.S. policy should be simple: Voice opposition to coups of any stripe, stay out militarily and do not try to oust any government.

Well, I read recently the Obama WH (none / 0) (#4)
by oculus on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:18:11 PM EST

is considering revising the Bush Doctrine Sarah Palin was supposed to be able to describe in detail.


You still have the problem (none / 0) (#17)
by Steve M on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:02:39 PM EST

of defining what is a coup and what is not.

Some people take the position that even a removal justified by the text of the constitution and approved by a co-equal branch of government constitutes a "coup" provided that it carries the outward trappings of a coup. Others disagree.

The "simple rule" I would propose is that we should leave the interpretation of a country's laws to its own domestic institutions, and not act as though we understand the Honduran constitution better than the Honduran Supreme Court.


That is why I said (none / 0) (#35)
by MKS on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 04:03:47 PM EST

that looking to the other Central American countries is important. They know what the true facts are--or are in a better position than we are. They are unanimous in condemning the coup--aided by the Supreme Court or not.

Courts do exceed their jurisdiction--and that has been known to happen in Central America. I think Hillary and the Department of State have made the right call.

We do need to give an opinion here. We should not, must not, use any non-diplomatic efforts to re-install anyone to power.

Your solution does have the advantage of avoiding any interference at all--a vast improvement over Reagan era policies that led to genocide.


I disagree (none / 0) (#36)
by Steve M on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 04:11:47 PM EST

that we ought to be drawing our own conclusions about whether the Supreme Court of Honduras followed Honduran law. And I don't agree that the neighboring countries have any special expertise either, any more than I agree Sarah Palin is an expert on Russia because you can see it from Alaska.

Bush v. Gore may have been a terrible decision, but it would have been ridiculous for other countries to say "that was a bad decision, so we choose to recognize President Gore instead." Sometimes a country is going to have a constitutional crisis, and their legitimate institutions like the legislature and the supreme court should be allowed to work through them, without foreign countries weighing in with their own interpretations of domestic law.

I think the State Department has acted appropriately because it would be very ugly for us to stand alone against the remainder of the hemisphere on this issue. But that doesn't mean they're right about Honduran law and the Honduran Supreme Court is wrong. It means that we're being prudent in trying to facilitate a negotiated resolution.


If you take things at face value (none / 0) (#37)
by MKS on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 04:29:43 PM EST

and read the documents and the Supreme Court's opinion and asume that is all that is really happening....

You asume a certain level of uprightness--that we accept whatever is written on the documents. I think a broader perspective is appropriate.

Something is going on when all the surrounding neighbors have a problem with ousting a democratically-elected President before the expiration of his term under very odd circumstances....

I understand the perils of intervention in Central America from extensive first hand experience....so I do not discount what your inclination is here.....

But there is a role to play in opposing coups....


What's going on (none / 0) (#39)
by Steve M on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 04:54:26 PM EST

is that the governments of neighboring countries are understandably protective of their own prerogatives. They want to condemn anything that even looks like a coup because of the history of coups in the region. But that doesn't make them right. My money says that when the Honduran history textbooks are published 100 years from now, they won't call it a coup.

I don't claim to know anything about Honduran law, but I can read their constitution and understand that the argument for his removal was at least plausible, and Zelaya's behavior was clearly way way out of line. The other institutions of government certainly could have handled the removal better, but this is how things work in a nascent democracy. It's still no more a "coup" in my book than Bush's 2000 election was a coup.


: Perhaps so (none / 0) (#41)
by MKS on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 05:27:00 PM EST

The same right wingers of old in Central America and their American apologists are the ones supporting the current ouster. That carries a lot of weight. Something's definitely up.....
The right wingers in Central America could always waive a piece of paper in your face....a judge's signature and bromides about the law. Color me jaundiced on that score.

And the problem is that saying (none / 0) (#38)
by MKS on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 04:32:43 PM EST

nothing here is in effect an endorsement of the coup.....


Culture alert: (none / 0) (#5)
by oculus on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:25:08 PM EST

Jewelry by Alexander Calder

New subjects:

(1) How about those Angels? Deafening silence.

(2) How about MLB adding more experience umps to WS roster?

(3) How about SEC putting football referees on inactive roster?

(4) Steve M, do you have any thoughts on the death of Soupy Sales, or are you too young?

Soupy Sales (5.00 / 1) (#10)
by Steve M on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:49:29 PM EST

beloved icon of my youth in Detroit! I used to watch him every day.

They really should televise his funeral because I think it is very likely someone will get a pie in the face.


The Calder jewelry (none / 0) (#7)
by Zorba on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:42:31 PM EST

looks interesting, oculus, but it doesn't look particularly "wearable." Maybe, whether birthday present or not, they weren't really meant to be worn. As for the Angels- that game last night certainly was, shall we say, interesting. I'm not really a fan of any of the teams in the American League, but any time anyone beats the Yankees is a good day, as far as I'm concerned, even if the game see-sawed.


Lets hope... (none / 0) (#8)
by kdog on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:46:36 PM EST

the Angels can take Game 6 and it gets really interesting.

Imagine if the hated Yanks blew a 3-1 a few short years after blowing a 3-0? How sweet would that be?


About as sweet as a (none / 0) (#9)
by nycstray on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:49:11 PM EST

season of the Mets?


I need something... (none / 0) (#12)
by kdog on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:52:11 PM EST

to throw back at chop-bustin' Yankee fans, and the Mutts sure as hell ain't providing a damn thing...its up to them Angels.


Some of us Yankee fans (none / 0) (#15)
by nycstray on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:58:04 PM EST

also support the Mutts ya know. I just love it when both teams are playing well . . .


I forgot you're an odd-ball... (none / 0) (#16)
by kdog on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:01:39 PM EST

who roots for both...probably because you didn't grow up here (if I'm not mistaken)...as a kid on the playground you're forced to choose one and despise the other:)


You picked the crappy side (none / 0) (#19)
by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:02:52 PM EST

Are there any libertarian Yankee fans? (none / 0) (#21)
by oculus on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:10:02 PM EST

why not (none / 0) (#22)
by CST on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:12:37 PM EST

free market, survival of the richest, no rules or regulations. Sounds like a Yankees fan to me.


Taken a close look at Johnny Damon (none / 0) (#23)
by oculus on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:13:58 PM EST

lately? Hardly recognize him.


Baseball season is over (none / 0) (#25)
by CST on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:16:30 PM EST

but yea, point taken. However, I will note he wasn't traded, he went of his own free will. Guess the hair was not worth millions of dollars.


: That hair was awful! (none / 0) (#29)
by nycstray on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:20:39 PM EST

I understood it and all, but it was such a no go on him, imo.
I remember when Giambi had to shave. Dude had dimples!! Who knew?!

No playground bullies (none / 0) (#24)
by nycstray on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:16:22 PM EST

got to me :) I did annoy my Dad when I was both a Raider and Niner fan, until he crossed into both {grin} It was a bit easier in No Cal, but I was def in Raider land part of the time wearing Niner colors. Same with A's and Giants.

And for the record, I do look better in Yankee blue vs Met blue, lol!~ ;)


I find that hard to believe... (none / 0) (#30)
by kdog on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:28:56 PM EST

our Brooklyn Dodger blue is so much brighter...and that fetching NY Giant orange mixed in:) The Yankees unis are boring...remind me of authority figures like cops or prison guards.


It's tradition (none / 0) (#33)
by Zorba on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:59:02 PM EST

The Yankee pinstripes and logo have been around a lo-o-o-ng time.


: The pinstripes since 1912.... (none / 0) (#40)
by desertswine on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 05:26:49 PM EST

according to Snopes, although it mentions the Cubs wearing pinstripes before that.

And what is that blue and white lanyard (none / 0) (#43)
by oculus on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 09:10:06 PM EST

type thingee the Yankees pitchers are wearing around their necks?


As an A's fan, I'm rooting for Philly ... (none / 0) (#34)
by cymro on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 03:01:32 PM EST

... as the least objectionable winner this year, so I'd like to see two more long extra innings games this weekend.

I don't much care who wins game 7, but maybe I'd prefer to see the Yankees lose, for the reason you give, kdog. But not until the Angels have worn out their pitching staff.


Is there anything this plant... (none / 0) (#6)
by kdog on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:39:56 PM EST

can't do? New study says smoking reefer regularly can make you a marathon man instead of a 2 minute turkey.

Study also found that we get more action...no surprise based on these findings:)

yeah, but you don't remember (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by Stellaaa on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:50:03 PM EST

: Not true... (none / 0) (#13)
by kdog on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:54:30 PM EST

You don't forget good stuff like that...where I put my car keys that I just had in my hand 2 minutes ago is another matter:)

: sounds more (none / 0) (#14)
by CST on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 01:56:36 PM EST

like alchohol to me.

Oh, kdog, you crack me up. (5.00 / 2) (#20)
by Anne on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:03:42 PM EST

I guess I don't consider a man having trouble climaxing to be a plus; maybe there are more partners because too many of them remember the pot smoker as "the guy who just wouldn't get off of me."

And just because it takes forever for a guy to have the Big O doesn't mean he's a better lover, either.


lol!~ (5.00 / 2) (#26)
by nycstray on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:17:53 PM EST

I was so tempted to go "there". Thank you!!


Could be, could be... (none / 0) (#27)
by kdog on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:18:45 PM EST

I was thinking the way you ladies can get to talking the pot smoker guys were the beneficiaries of positive word of mouth around the sewing circle:)

Could be another medical use though...as treatment for premature climaxers. I'll add to the list of phony ailment choices should my state ever legalize for medical use:)


I can see the ads now. (none / 0) (#28)
by oculus on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:20:32 PM EST

: LOL... (none / 0) (#31)
by kdog on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:32:00 PM EST

I'll bet Pfizer just gave a big chunk a change to the Partnership for a Drug Free America:)

Get more action? (none / 0) (#18)
by nycstray on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:02:43 PM EST

Not clear. Could be partners don't stick around long so you need more partners vs actually getting more sex ;)

While many pot smoking men may be having sexual problems, the study also found they have more partners then non-pot smokers.

: True, not clear... (none / 0) (#32)
by kdog on Fri Oct 23, 2009 at 02:47:14 PM EST

could be as simple as...well, I'll leave it to Marvin:)....

We're all sensitive people
With so much to give
Understand me, sugar