home

Will the Recession Mean More Traffic Tickets?

By TChris, Section Crime Policy
Posted on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 12:42:02 PM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Local governments generally deny that they use traffic tickets to raise revenue, but two economists who reviewed tickets issued in North Carolina drew conclusions that tend to confirm a common suspicion: traffic tickets are more about generating dollars than public safety.

Traffic tickets go up significantly when local government revenue falls, they found. Their study showed for the first time evidence of how "local governments behave, in part, as though traffic tickets are a revenue tool to help offset periods of fiscal distress." ...

Controlling for other factors, a 1 percentage point drop in local government revenue leads to a roughly .32 percentage point increase in the number of traffic tickets in the following year, a statistically significant connection.

Rising unemployment rates also correlate with increased ticketing. As the recession pinches local budgets, expect more traffic citations to be issued. The lesson: drive carefully, don't roll through stop signs, and invest in a good radar detector.

< Burris Denied Seating in Senate | The 12 Person Jury Should Be Recognized As a Right >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Will the Recession Mean More Traffic Tickets? | 54 comments (54 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment

    In our state, TChris, we've seen this (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:12:53 PM EST
    for years, well-known in small towns and less populated counties between your city and mine -- especially at the end of the month to meet quotas for traffic tickets.  I was warned from the start about that timing when I used to do that drive almost daily between our cities.

    Btw, also always watch out on the freeway between us when the timing is around the start of a semester, such as Labor Day -- not just because of the holiday traffic but more so because of all the overpacked cars of students heading to Madtown.  Those drivers get pulled over by the droves then in Jefferson and Walworth Counties -- and just at a time when the college kids need every cent to afford the living costs in Madison.  

    At the same time, I would see the locals' pickup trucks sailing by at far higher speeds, since they obviously were not students who would not be able to come back to court to fight the tickets.

    Absolutely right. (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by TChris on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:50:23 PM EST
    Don't drive through Rosendale (the worst of many examples) at 2 mph over the limit or the police chief, who runs radar all day long, will ticket you. It's easy to make a deal for fewer points as long as you pay the ticket amount because all Rosendale cares about is the revenue. Jefferson County DA's won't even talk to you about traffic tickets -- pay the fine or go to trial (unless you actually go to trial, and then they suddenly get reasonable). And don't get me started on Walworth County. The routine pot busts at Alpine Valley are solely about raising revenue in Walworth County.

    Parent
    Thanks re Rosendale tip (none / 0) (#53)
    by Cream City on Wed Jan 07, 2009 at 04:48:28 PM EST
    and I'll trade you a tip to watch out near the Ixonia exit.:-)

    As for Alpine Valley, I have avoided it ever since I had to endure the mayhem there in escorting a daughter to, ahem, New Kids on the Block.  Forty thousand screaming preteens in screaming early '90s colors of neon orange, yellow, and green.  Hey, don't hold it against me; we were broke, but I had won the tickets.  

    We still laugh about my getting the phone call that I had won, with me trying to tell the caller that I just had signed up to humor my daughter, and would he please call someone else to dump the tickets?  But she was on the extension and told the caller that I was her mean older sister, so she claimed the tickets for her mom aka me.

    Anyway, it's a far different ambience at Alpine Valley between the Old Dead vs. the New Kids.  But yeh, either way, count on meeting the local cops.

    Parent

    They are going to raise the amount (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by ruffian on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:31:28 PM EST
    of the fines for speeding here in Florida (or maybe just the Orlando area. They are not hiding the fact that it is to raise additional revenues. If it cuts down on speeders that will be an additional benefit.

    tv show... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by jedimom on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 02:08:45 PM EST
    has anyone else seen that television show Parking Wars? It follows the parking enforcement authority around Philly, WOW what reactions when they are botting cars, people crying screaming fighting, that they will lose their jobs and not be able to get to work...

    then you have yuppies who are parking ON THE SIDEWALK next to a daycare ctr b/c they live next door and find it inconvenient that the daycare ctr gets all those spot in front of the brownstone or whathaveyopu..unreal...

    they seem very fair and even handed in that they listen to no one, all the cars get impounded..

    they drive around and they DEFINITELY HAVE A QUOTA the show shows it!, and they input random license plates (or maybe not so random) and find those with tickets and boot them...

    the best is they have auctions and then as people are bidding on the cars they are driving around the auction lot and BOOTING THE BIDDERS who are inside for having tickets on the cars they drove to the auction!!!!!

    Did you ever try to park in Philly? (none / 0) (#27)
    by scribe on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 02:21:43 PM EST
    It's been years, but it was horrible and I cannot imagine it got any better since then.

    Parent
    Interesting Post and Comments (1.00 / 1) (#42)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 05:36:33 PM EST
    Griping about being caught while breaking the law.

    Or, more people unemployed (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 12:49:34 PM EST
    results in more miles driven, more trips/driver?  

    The 'lesson' is to eliminate drug prohibition (none / 0) (#2)
    by SeeEmDee on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 12:55:41 PM EST
    If governments at all levels are starting to feel the financial wolf gnawing on their bones, and it can't (realistically) expect to make up the revenue by ticketing thanks to the shrinking tax revenues, then this country will be left to do to today's illegal drug cartels what our grandparents did to Al Capone and his thugs; starve them of profit by re-legalizing presently illicit substances.

    Billions in retail tax revenue await the first State that does so. Penury awaits the ones that don't. Not a very hard choice to make, considering the alternatives...

    More traffic fines in a recession... (none / 0) (#3)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:04:00 PM EST
    ...might just explain this...

    Denver has failed to enforce its red-light camera contract, collecting the $75 fines but not collecting the data necessary to determine whether the program actually is reducing red-light running.
    That isn't the only place the local govs will (none / 0) (#4)
    by scribe on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:07:17 PM EST
    be pushing.

    Expect "fees" for dog licenses and whatever to go up.

    In a town where friends live, none of the parking meters were taken out of service on the December Saturdays, contrary to the prior-shopping-enhancing/encouraging practice.

    At about 1000 parking meters (seriously - I counted, courtesy Google Maps showing parking spaces) x 12 hours/day x $1/hour, that adds up to someone's annual salary per week.

    But, then again, the clowns that run that town managed to lose hundreds of thousands of quarters only to find them when authorities came asking about it.

    Snap judgment: you have too (none / 0) (#5)
    by oculus on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:11:17 PM EST
    much time on your hands!

    Parent
    Not really. (none / 0) (#12)
    by scribe on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:29:12 PM EST
    The blocks are all pretty uniform.  Just count the cars on one block and start multiplying.

    Takes literally a minute.

    Parent

    Sh*t... (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:17:52 PM EST
    NY State is talking about starting to tax taxes...I kid you not.  A 10 dollar tax to file your taxes by mail.

    The authorities deny there are ticket quotas too...we all know that denial ain't true either.

    It's akin to extortion in my eyes...just another mafia-esque racket.  It sure as hell ain't about safety.  If they don't get it on the front end via payroll taxes, they get ya on the back end...or both ends.  Lube up everybody...and prepare to get f*cked.

    Parent

    Oh, ye gods. That's the worst yet (none / 0) (#11)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:21:59 PM EST
    and as we in my state always have followed that state in so much, I'll be watching for such idiocy here . . . where the discussion of where to find more revenue through more taxation already is heating up, with our budget woes.

    Thanks for the heads up.

    Parent

    That's just the most erroneous... (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:35:02 PM EST
    Also being proposed are the soda tax, the ipod download tax, the barbershop and beauty parlor tax, of course old standbys alcohol and tobacco, and many more.

    And the AG's office is going after the sovereign Native American nations in the state who sell tobacco to whitey tax free...un-freakin'-believable.

    Parent

    Try again (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 02:44:00 PM EST
    Kdog - You coming to Tunica?

    Parent
    No go brother... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 06:56:38 PM EST
    the bankroll is light...one of these days I'll catch ya.

    Parent
    The mid size city near where I live has (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:13:39 PM EST
    installed traffic cameras and "adjusted" (read shortened) the time lights remain yellow at selected intersections.

    The result has been longer delays due to lights not being coordinated and informed drivers stopping sooner than necessary.

    Rumor has it that the number of rear end accidents have also increased because people are making panic stops in fear of getting a ticket.

    Safety? I don't think so.

    If they wanted safety they would put more well marked police cars on the streets.

    How (none / 0) (#10)
    by CST on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:19:24 PM EST
    Does this result in uncoordinated lights?  Losing yellow time shouldn't affect coordination, especially if it happens through the network.  Although I think shortening yellows is a bad idea due to the driver habits already established, and it could cause accidents.

    I have almost been rear-ended stopping for a traffic camera.  They aren't safe, but police cost a lot more and they are cash cows.

    Parent

    OK - I worked (in college) in the highway (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by scribe on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:50:27 PM EST
    department engineering office.

    Traffic lights are supposed to be set for a predetermined amount of time on green, amber and red.  A good place to start checking these times is what's called (or used to be) the MUTCD - Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices.

    If they're varying the length of time - particularly with the amber, they could be putting themselves in a big liability problem, though that would depend upon state liability laws which vary widely from state to state.

    Installing one traffic light is no big deal - in terms of timing.  Just set the times for the colors and let it run.  What gets interesting is coordinating the many different traffic lights in any particular area.  By coordinating, I don't just mean making sure everyone is not "green" at the same time.  Rather, that includes making for what some will call a "green wave" - where traffic, particularly along a major road, will be able to flow without stopping at a certain speed.  Years ago, I hit one of those on old US 1 between Newark and Trenton and drove it without stopping the entire distance.  There might be 100 traffic lights (I never counted) along that stretch and I hit every one of them on the green.

    Creating that sort of pattern is no less art than science and engineering.  Of course, it will also have an effect on the timing of traffic lights on other roads feeding into it.  These lights are different distances and therefore times (recommended speed X distance) away, so the "distant" lights will have to be set to feed (or draw) traffic so there are not extended waits (and thus, backups) at some point.

    When I worked in the highway department, we had guys there who'd been doing this sort of thing for years, and they used charts, maps, nomographs (engineering diagrams which allow integrating many different equations to achieve a solution - sort of graphically solving many simultaneous equations), art and experience.  They might have to spend a couple days working through a new light.  I suppose they have computer programs now.

    But, messing with the settings throws that delicate balance off in a heartbeat, and is not something to be done just to plump revenue.  

    Parent

    Right (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by CST on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 02:10:18 PM EST
    I do that type of work now.  There are definitely regulations for yellow/red time, there are usually varying local standards that can be more stringent than the regulations.

    Also, most coordinated lights do not have pre-determined green times.  They have pre-determined green min/max times, but the actual time for green can vary based on whether or not there are cars who need a green light.  This is pretty irrelevant during rush hour though where there are always cars and so they will go to the max every time.

    However, if you shorten the yellow time, you are increasing the Green time (I assume - if red increases instead I am mistaken), so the "green wave" time will increase.  If you do this on every intersection it will increase through the corridor.

    We do have computer programs now to run this stuff, but while it's not always completely accurate, it has made it a lot easier to estimate offsets for coordination.  I imagine shortening yellow may affect offsets to some degree, but that can be fixed.  One thing I've noticed though, just because you analyze it and tell someone how to fix it doesn't mean it actually happens.

    Parent

    Yes, but you can only shorten the amber (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by scribe on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 02:19:11 PM EST
    so much.  

    Last I checked (a few years back I had a client who was convinced the amber at the light she was accused of running was "fast", so I called the highway department and spoke to one of the traffic engineers), the rule of thumb was no less than 1 second of amber for every 10 mph (or fraction thereof) of the speed limit on the street controlled by that light.  So, for a street with a speed limit of 25 mph, that would mean no less than a 3 second amber.  

    I went out and timed the light and it was OK by that standard, but I managed to get the ticked bargained down to a no-point, fine-only violation.

    Parent

    Definitely (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by CST on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 02:29:38 PM EST
    There are regulations.  If anything, local "rules" have to be more stringent than the regulations.  So if the MUTCD says you need 3 seconds, you can have a local rule that says you need 4, but not one that says 2 (that's certainly not to say that it doesn't happen, but it shouldn't).

    However, I believe PPJ was commenting on them shortening the yellow, so I am assuming it went from 4 to 3 or something like that, that is still within regulations.  That shouldn't adversly affect coordination, but it sure can lead to pile-ups with drivers who have been trained with 4 and now have to stop on a dime at 3 for fear of a ticket from a camera.

    Parent

    It would be worth it to go out there (none / 0) (#31)
    by scribe on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 02:50:29 PM EST
    and time every light where your clients got tagged for running it, just to see.  Because, when municipalities get hungry, they don't pay much attention to the law.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 05:52:12 PM EST
    that's my understanding... as for the lights being coordinated, that may be more "belief" than actual, but know this.  

    I often take my youngest grandson to school. I use to be able to drive right at the speed limit and make all three of the lights before I turn on to a side street. I can't do it now no matter what. I've tried under and over...nothing works.

    I confess I'm a grump about such things. Smooth driving saves gas and your nerves.

    Parent

    Ever since I heard... (none / 0) (#22)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:57:08 PM EST
    ...about this happening--in a very upscale neighborhood btw, the thought of being rear-ended has taken on a whole new fear factor.  

    Parent
    Not About Revenue (none / 0) (#8)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:17:26 PM EST
    The study concluded that parking tickets issued citywide have surged 42 percent since Mayor Bloomberg took office. During the last fiscal year, the city raked in $624 million in parking fines, which is more than the city spends to run the entire Department of Transportation. Officials, maintaining a straight face, insist the parking enforcement is not driven by revenue goals.

    link

    Also for your amusement an interactive map that allows you to check the stats for each street in NYC.

    Some time ago (none / 0) (#35)
    by eric on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 04:15:24 PM EST
    there was a lawsuit here in Minneapolis that was brought because it was unconstitutional to raise money with parking fees.  It would be a tax if it raised revenue.

    The result was basically a holding that all revenue from parking enforcement must be used for parking enforcement.  It let to - you guessed it -more parking enforcement to raise more money so they could have more parking enforcement, on and on.

    Still, I think the idea is valid.  Fees, fines, tickets, meters, should not be a source of revenue beyond the public purpose that thost fees, fines, and tickets are meant for.

    Parent

    They're scraping for money (none / 0) (#14)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:32:38 PM EST
    I'm also wondering about the I-Pass for the toll roads here. I've recieved two citations for toll violations in the last 90 days, even though I have my I-Pass mounted on the dash board.

    (I'm still fighting them on this).

    I hope you saw the stories (none / 0) (#21)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:57:01 PM EST
    in the press a couple of weeks ago about a lot of people with I-Passes being erroneously ticketed?  

    We have an I-Pass, too, and were doing some travel on Illinois toll roads, so the stories caught my eye.  If you didn't see them, I hope you can google them -- and perhaps use them to alert the law-and-order types that you're on to this, so you can make it go away.  Others succeeded in doing so.

    Parent

    Will do Thanks! (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by mmc9431 on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 02:17:14 PM EST


    Parent
    Radar detectors (none / 0) (#16)
    by roy on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:45:42 PM EST
    Please remember that radar detectors are A) sometimes illegal and B) usually going to piss off a cop who pulls you over.  I used to have one; it served mainly as a "it's too late" alarm.

    Get a good one. (none / 0) (#20)
    by TChris on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:54:55 PM EST
    Illegal in 2 or 3 states, if I recall, but invaluable everywhere else, as long as you get one that works on all bands (and laser) and has both a front and back antenna.  You're screwed if you get hit by a laser, but if the cop is lasering everybody on a busy road you might pick it up before he lasers you. And I frankly don't care if my use of a legal electronic device bothers a police officer, any more than he cares that his use of radar bothers me.

    Parent
    Curious (none / 0) (#40)
    by cal1942 on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 05:27:18 PM EST
    invest in a good radar detector.

    Instead of buying a radar detector why not just drive the posted speed limit. You know, obey the law.

    Parent

    It's 55 by me... (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by kdog on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 07:05:39 PM EST
    on the highways and no one drives 55...not a soul.  In fact, driving 55 is a hazard on the Long Island Expressway, especially in the left or center lanes...an accident waiting to happen.  72 and under you won't get pulled over, even the cops know 55 is a joke.

    Don't know about you but I just can't obey laws that defy every inkling of common sense.  Especially laws that are nothing more than ruses to raise cash.

    Blind obedience ain't my bag.

    Parent

    Or (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 05:33:12 PM EST
    Make cars that only go max 80 mph. Texas has some places you can go 80 but most max out at 70 or 75.

    Parent
    Right on, Chris. I'm like you. (none / 0) (#29)
    by easilydistracted on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 02:39:31 PM EST
    I could care less whether they see my detector. And, you're right about laser. I've been busted once by the laser. What pi**es me off with the laser (other than getting busted by it) is that its operator has to be stationery. Meaning, of course, that some cop is setting idly by, usually out of plain sight and just waiting to ambush an unsuspecting driver, rather than practicing true deterrence by moving with traffic in plain sight.

    Parent
    tickets are peanuts compared to audits (none / 0) (#19)
    by Jolsson on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 01:53:53 PM EST
    States all over the country are currently aggressively increasing the amount of sales tax and unclaimed property audits to desperately raise revenue. Most of the time, this amounts to something that is close to a highway robbery:


    http://usparliament.blogspot.com/2008/12/unclaimed-property-states-turn-to.html
    Move to a state with no income or (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 05:55:13 PM EST
    personal property tax.... (We could use the sales tax revenue!)

    Parent
    Or move to a state... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by EL seattle on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 10:05:42 PM EST
    ... with no income tax and live in a city that's just across the border from a state with no sales tax!  Live free or die!

    Parent
    FYI (none / 0) (#32)
    by CST on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 03:37:40 PM EST
    For speeding tickets in my state, the law states that they must have caught you speeding for a full 1/4 mile.  Now, cops completely ignore this law, don't tell anyone, and therefore often get away with it.  But if you know enough to contest the ticket - you can get off if they didn't get you for a 1/4 mile.  For those of us who drive in the city, it essentially means you can't get a speeding ticket on city streets since you are basically never able to speed that long.

    I don't know if this is true in other states as well, but I didn't know that law until I started working in transportation and a co-worker told me.  So it may be for other states too.

    What state? (none / 0) (#34)
    by eric on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 04:08:32 PM EST
    I am curious.  Here, MN, all it takes is one milisecond of speeding.

    Parent
    MA (none / 0) (#36)
    by CST on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 04:20:26 PM EST
    I thought that was the case here too.  They will certainly pull you over after a milisecond of speeding and give you a ticket.  But I found out from a co-worker that if you contest, the law itself states you must be speeding for a 1/4 mile, so you will win the contest.  Cops don't care though, they will still ticket you, and you still have to show up in court to get out of it, but you can get out of it.

    Parent
    I just paid an old ticket (none / 0) (#33)
    by eric on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 04:06:41 PM EST
    here in Minneapolis for expired license tabs.  The tabs were $35, the fine?  $155 plus $25 because they yanked by drivers license.  I don't have time to fight - I do have a valid defense - so I just paid.

    I walked past the place where you go to see the  "hearing officer", which is where one goes to fight tickets, plead for mercy, get a deal, etc.  It was PACKED, on a Tuesday afternoon.  Normally, that would be the best time to go.

    Also, 90% of the folks were, by my estimation, ethnic minorities.  It makes me depressed and angry at the same time.  We are a society turned against ourselves.   Ticket, ticket, fine, fine, and the urban underclass get the worst of it.

    It has huge impact on unemployment (none / 0) (#37)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 04:24:23 PM EST
    of people losing licenses because they're not able to pay up, per a series of stories in my local paper to the southeast of you in the Twin Cities.

    Parent
    Which (none / 0) (#38)
    by eric on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 04:26:37 PM EST
    local paper?

    Parent
    Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (none / 0) (#39)
    by Cream City on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 04:38:24 PM EST
    at jsonline.com.  It was a while ago, and its site's search function sucks; it can be better to google jsonline.com and some search terms to turn up stories.

    Parent
    Try calling the court clerk (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 06, 2009 at 05:57:15 PM EST


    Parent
    My Account Also Tells Me (none / 0) (#49)
    by bob h on Wed Jan 07, 2009 at 07:13:00 AM EST
    that income tax audits are on the rise.  In NJ, where I live, she tells me every return is now audited.  And contrary to what I have read elsewhere, the IRS is also stepping up audits.

    New Law Dallas County effective 1/1/09... (none / 0) (#50)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Jan 07, 2009 at 07:43:36 AM EST
    Drivers caught driving without proof of insurance -- ticketed,car immediately towed and impounded and not released until proof of insurance showen and impoundement fees paid.

    Thats f*cked up.... (4.00 / 1) (#51)
    by kdog on Wed Jan 07, 2009 at 09:39:40 AM EST
    I love how the states mandate auto insurance but don't mandate affordability...basically forcing you to do business with shady auto-insurance companies.

    More war on the poor.

    Parent

    Yep. (none / 0) (#52)
    by easilydistracted on Wed Jan 07, 2009 at 09:58:26 AM EST
    Imagine: a young mother pulled over after running a traffic light in, shall we say, a rather dubious part of Dallas County. No proof of insurance on her person. Uh oh, she and her three children are set to the curb in this shady part of town while the vehicle is towed. Hmmm. Not a pretty sight. Then what happens. Never mind that the impound lot will charge a daily fee until the car vehicle is claimed.

    You put it quite well kdog -- its f*cked.  

    Parent

    Question to Eric (none / 0) (#54)
    by catcall on Thu Jan 08, 2009 at 10:13:02 AM EST
    Hey Eric! I read your comment about fines & fees being considered a tax when they are used to generate revenue. Several states, including Texas and Virginia, have enacted Driver Responsibility Surcharges. In the case of Texas, the money is collected by the Dept. of Public Safety and goes to a Texas Mobility Fund which was created to fund an ambitious future project - the Trans Texas Corridor.
    What is your take on this take?

    Will the Recession Mean More Traffic Tickets? | 54 comments (54 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment