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Sunday Night Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:51:08 PM EST
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The U.S. Open pre-empted Big Brother 10, so I'm left with the MTV Music Video Awards, hosted by Russell Brand. Who? He's a young British stand up comedian and tv host, apparently very popular there.

I would have thought it was a re-run from a past year since Brittney Spears won the award for best female video, but Brand's opening monologue was all about Gov. Sarah Palin -- poking fun at her prospective son-in-law Levi.

Music videos must not be a big business anymore. This sure isn't the Grammy's. It seems very low budget with a high school auditorium feeling. Maybe it's the seating-- it resembles folding chairs.[More...]

Michael Phelps did a nice job of presenting an award. He seems very comfortable on stage. A rapper is on now and they are bleeping almost every other word.

Jamie Foxx and Demi Moore presented and Kobe Bryant and Paris Hilton are up soon.

Is anyone watching anything more interesting?

This is an open thread.

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    Sunday Night Open Thread | 54 comments (54 topical)

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    FWIW--new poll (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by NJDem on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:59:37 PM EST
    McCain leads Democrat Barack Obama by 50%-46% among registered voters, the Republican's biggest advantage since January and a turnaround from the USA TODAY poll taken just before the convention opened in St. Paul. Then, he lagged by 7 percentage points.

    But can this be right?:

    In the new poll, taken Friday through Sunday, McCain leads Obama by 54%-44% among those seen as most likely to vote. The survey of 1,022 adults, including 959 registered voters, has a margin of error of +/-- 3 points for both samples.

    I know it's just one poll, but the first from this weekend (non-Daily-tracking) right?  LINK

    McCain by 10 among likely voters (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by markw on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:37:44 PM EST
    Hmmm, I wonder if it's too late to get in Jeralyn's poll about when Palin will drop out of the race?

    Parent
    My first impression is to freak out. (none / 0) (#8)
    by Southsider on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:09:14 PM EST
    Ignore the "registered voters" numbers, even though McCain leads in those as well.  What is upsetting is the "likely voter" numbers.  A 10% spread in likely voters (way beyond the MOE) means either:

    a.) This poll is utterly f**ked in terms of its reliability.  Given the fact that Gallup is Gallup, I doubt this.  

    b.) The McCain/Palin effect is being felt strongly right now: the GOP base, moribund after years of near-criminal bungling and corruption, is actually fired up in a crazy way now, closing the enthusiasm gap on a candidate whose grasp on the lead was shaky to begin with.  In other words: Hurricane Palin.

    My SECOND impression is to remind myself, and others, that this is a convention bounce.  Bounces come back down to earth, by definition.  And this election has at least five or six more twists and turns in the road before it's over.  Remember when Kerry NEGA-bounced out of his convention and Bush went up 10 points?  Yet in the end we almost pulled it out.  Palin's novelty will wear off.  She's guaranteed to make at least one memorable gaffe which will be plastered all over the evening news, whether it's fair or unfair.  The rush of blood to the head that the GOP is feeling right now will subside into dizziness.

    I hope.  

    Parent

    Poll :( (none / 0) (#13)
    by WS on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:18:39 PM EST
    Any other polls coming out tomorrow?  


    Parent
    McCain up by 10 (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by mogal on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:26:48 PM EST
     USAToday/Gallup poll

    http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm


    Parent

    Same (none / 0) (#17)
    by WS on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:28:43 PM EST
    Thats the same poll listed up top.  Any new ones?

    Parent
    I noticed they buried (none / 0) (#35)
    by kenosharick on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:56:14 PM EST
    the fact that mccain was up by ten among LIKELY voters in the 7th paragraph. They're not playing favorites, are they?

    Parent
    Not favorites (none / 0) (#50)
    by Marvin42 on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 12:43:07 AM EST
    They probably don't want to be beat up with all the standard "no one knows the likely voter model" arguments and I would guess were a little stunned by that result themselves.

    Parent
    Aren't likely voters (none / 0) (#14)
    by nycstray on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:20:52 PM EST
    ones that have voting histories? If so, could it show under-performance with new voters or lapsed voters?

    Parent
    Obama on George S today (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by ap in avl on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:08:41 PM EST
    Did anyone else think that it looked like it was staged on the set of Hee Haw?

    Just now watching it (Tivo'd it from this morning).....maybe I have had too much wine.

    Palin's Former Press Secretary (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by nell on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:24:31 PM EST
    I have to say, that I am INCREDIBLY impressed with Palin's former Press Secretary, Megan Stapleton, who has been doing interviews with all of the major networks and who got picked up as a Media Coordinator by the McCain campaign today (because when I saw an interview with her yesterday, she was introduced only as the former press secretary, and they said she did not currently have any affiliation with the McCain campaign).

    For someone who doesn't really have a lot of experience with a very aggressive national media, Megan is doing a terrific and impressive job.

    I was very impressed when I saw her (5.00 / 0) (#19)
    by nycstray on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:34:07 PM EST
    the other day. I think it was CNN, she was holding her own on all questions/gotchas. She's very clear and concise.

    I'm watching the c-span debate and it's interesting listening to Alaskan points of view regarding their state. Palin is very big on the 'vote of the people" on issues (from what I've watched.

    Parent

    Thank You (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by nell on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:38:59 PM EST
    Greenwald.

    He is smart.

    This is EXACTLY what I think...you do not get to where she has gotten by being a dumb, brainless bimbo. There is no way. Anyone who doesn't believes that a politician who has risen as fast as she has (or as fast as Obama is) does not have to be smart and ruthless is just naive. Both she and Obama are smart and ruthless and that is how they have risen so fast...

    But these people keep driving expectations into the ground and so she soars above each hurdle.

    HIllary (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by WS on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:39:56 PM EST
    Any chance Biden can step down and have Hillary take his place?  Is that not possible?  What's the protocol for switching veeps after a convention?

    Eagleton (none / 0) (#32)
    by WS on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:45:45 PM EST
    Looked up Eagleton and the Dem Convention was mid July while Eagleton stepped down early August.  

    So I think replacing vps after a convention can be done.

    Parent

    On the Joe Biden gaffe front: (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Southsider on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:42:00 PM EST
    Biden: Life begins at conception.

    Whether this statement from Biden is really news (i.e. he's said it before), it's bound to generate a certain amount of comment over the next few days.  Both in terms of asking him to reconcile this belief with his pro-choice views and those of Obama, and in terms of contrasting it to Palin.

    Of course life begins at conception. (none / 0) (#31)
    by Realleft on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:41:59 PM EST
    How could it be argued otherwise?

    That's not the issue.

    Parent

    That's your opinion (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 12:14:14 AM EST
    and one that is not shared by anyone I know, so please state it as such.

    Parent
    As I hope I clarified...? (none / 0) (#51)
    by jerry on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:02:09 AM EST
    I think the issue of "when does life begin" is a muddle of an issue of biological life, vs. an issue of Human Personhood.

    Maybe I'm way wrong here, but doesn't "everyone agree" that certainly, even a zygote is living tissue?

    Some random site I googled upon seems to describe this viewpoint well and summarize the positions.  As a non-biologist and non-lawyer, I feel dumb to even post this link, but what the hey?

    Parent

    AN egg is also living tissue (none / 0) (#52)
    by tree on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:58:40 AM EST
    and so are sperm. So then were does than argument take us? Are we going to arrest every man who j@cks off for committing murder? Or every woman who uses contraception, or fails to copul@te during her fertile period?

    Parent
    I agree, it's hard to know what Biden's point was (none / 0) (#53)
    by jerry on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 02:09:48 AM EST
    If he was saying biological life begins at conception, I think that's a no brainer and not controversial.  But was that what he was asked or was he asked when did human personhood begin?

    If he thinks that's at conception, that's really problematical as to how he could be pro-choice.

    If he thinks it's later but answered with the definition of biological life then that's problematical too.  Was he being disingenuous or just unclear on the issue?  The latter sounds doubtful.

    In other news though, relevant to the point you made, Stephen Colbert's DNA is being shot to the Space Station.

    Parent

    I hope I cleared that up below. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Realleft on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 11:33:46 AM EST
    I didn't mean "personhood" or "an independent life" or "a being" - all of which are debatable.  

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#33)
    by nell on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:52:18 PM EST
    Certainly it can be argued otherwise.

    At the moment of conception, what you have is just a bunch of cells that will divide and replicate...I don't believe "life" begins until the embryo/fetus could survive without the mother, which does not happen until 24 or 25 weeks. People can disagree about this, I understand that, but I just reject the categorical statement that you make.

    Parent

    I agree... (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Realleft on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:31:50 PM EST
    with you on when individual protections should begin (though of course it's a moving target when viability begins with the youngest survivor now I think around 22 weeks).  I was thinking in the most general use of the term life (living as opposed to dead or inorganic)and I agree with your conceptualization as to when the cells comprise "a life."  

    I'm just wary of the trap being laid that there is supposedly something inconsistent with believing that "life" begins at conception and also believing that women should not be compelled to continue pregnancies prior to viability. To me, those aren't irreconcilable, and that's what I was thinking about.

    Parent

    I completely agree with you (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Southsider on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:45:22 PM EST
    And yet my analysis isn't based on what I personally think, or on objective factors, but rather on the likelihood that people will be able to make hay out of Biden's statement.  It's our responsibility to stand up for the truth around here, of course.  But it's also our responsibility (or mine, at least) to be bloodless and unsentimental about how things can and will play politically.

    In any event I don't think this is going to amount to very much.  A blip at most.  Just one of those things to toss into a Sunday Night Open Thread.

    Parent

    Are your individual cells alive? (none / 0) (#39)
    by jerry on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:23:44 PM EST
    The blastula/embryo/fetus is definitely alive in the biological sense which considers single cell and up to be the fundamental unit of life.

    People can reasonably ask if a blastula is a person, or a person deserving of rights, but I think it's weird and biologically unsound to argue that a blastula/embryo/fetus is not alive.


    Parent

    Most babies, kids, (and adults) are not alive (none / 0) (#46)
    by jerry on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:54:54 PM EST
    I don't believe "life" begins until the embryo/fetus could survive without the mother,

    Babies are born at 10 months because if they were born at 12, they'd probably kill the mother during birth.  But babies can't survive without mom until a year or so after birth.

    And if it weren't for the country's largest nuke plant, I probably couldn't survive the summer days for more than about 5 hours.  So maybe I am not alive either, or maybe the life form is {Jerry & Palo Verde Nuclear Reactor & Thane Air Conditioning Systems.}

    Cells are alive.  The question is whether personhood begins at conception, and though I am pro-choice, I tend to suspect that science will show more and more that many characteristics of personhood are present long before birth (or arguably not present until long after birth, if ever.)

    Parent

    Check out early brain development. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Fabian on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 04:47:03 AM EST
    Humans evolved to birth babies with small underdeveloped brains.  Big skulls can be a fatal trait, but big brains are an evolutionary advantage.  So the brain is the last organ to mature and babies are born with very rudimentary brain function.  Brain development in the last trimester and the fourth trimester is critical.

    The fourth trimester is what researchers call the first few postnatal months.  The brain is so immature at birth that a newborn spends the first months in a kind of post natal gestation, doing little more than eating, eliminating, and growing.

    Sometimes I think we have more in common with marsupials than mammals.

    Parent

    Tammy Bruce also says... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Realleft on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:05:11 PM EST
    During my time with the National Organization for Women, one of the (many) things that disturbed me during national board meetings was the fact that many of the women seemed to be allergic to bathing, and especially frightened of the concept of `grooming.'

    The simplest things reveal that you are in a room full of unhappy people -- many were significantly overweight, and by grooming I mean engaging in the simple act of running a brush though your hair, brushing one's teeth, visiting a dentist if need be (at least on occasion), and simply caring enough about yourself to at least attempt to appear healthy.

    So, I think I'd take her comments on Palin with a little salt.

    Source: (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Realleft on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:06:22 PM EST
    http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/7/26/113857.shtml

    Parent
    She's a comedian and was head of LA NOW (2.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jerry on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:38:11 PM EST
    I think her comments are in the context of her being:
    a) a comedian
    b) a shock talk radio host (I think)
    c) former head of LA NOW

    You may disagree with her politically incorrect language, but my guess is she is reporting her perceptions of the group she saw accurately.

    Parent

    What she said (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Fabian on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 04:35:33 AM EST
    is just a repackaging of "Feminists are ugly, unhappy old women who can't get a man.".

    I could probably point you to a recent rant by my pet right wing blogger.  She uses that screed a couple times a year.  It was infuriating the first time, but by the third time I saw her use it, it just seemed pathetic.  It's a good screed to use if you want to keep young women from joining up with feminists.

    Parent

    Also at SFGate, Tammy Bruce re: Palin and feminism (1.00 / 1) (#43)
    by jerry on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:35:16 PM EST
    Also at SFGate tonight, Tammy Bruce discusses Sarah Palin as a feminist. A feminist's argument for McCain's VP

    ...Clinton voters...they now look across the aisle and see a woman who represents everything the feminist movement claimed it stood for. Women can have a family and a career. We can be whatever we choose, on our own terms. For some, that might mean shooting a moose. For others, perhaps it's about shooting a movie or shooting for a career as a teacher. However diverse our passions, we will vote for a system that allows us to make the choices that best suit us. It's that simple.
    ...
    began to wonder if ... pro-choice women and gays to be specific - would be attracted to the McCain-Palin ticket. The answer is, of course. There is a point where all of our issues, including abortion rights, are made safer not only if the people we vote for agree with us - but when those people and our society embrace a respect for women and promote policies that increase our personal wealth, power and political influence.

    Make no mistake - the Democratic Party and its nominee have created the powerhouse that is Sarah Palin, and the party's increased attacks on her (and even on her daughter) reflect that panic.

    ...Because men and women who never before would have considered voting for a Republican have either decided, or are seriously considering, doing so.

    They are deciding women's rights must be more than a slogan and actually belong to every woman, not just the sort approved of by left-wing special interest groups.
    ...
    Many more now are realizing that it does indeed take a woman - who happens to be a Republican named Sarah Palin.

    Having experienced first hand bias in family court that stripped me of my kids (short story: 3 court psychs said give him 50/50 joint physical custody, so I was then, with courts permission, the subject of false allegations of rape and abuse and ex-parte orders that were all overturned, and finally after granting me 50/50 joint physical custody, the court itself made that moot by allowing my ex to move out of state, AND then I get to hear from feminists how they complain that courts are biased against women and yet we see NOW lobbying for sole custody and fathers lobbying for joint custody), anyway, having experienced that, along with all sorts of weird policies and statements made by self-claimed feminists (for instance, politicizing oral sex depending on whether the participants are married, single, or gay, and coming down against oral sex if the participants are married) (and for instance, demanding (rightfully so) to keep the government out of our bedrooms and off our bodies, except declaring the government must make gardasil vaccinations mandatory for prepubescent girls) (and let's not forget the Duke students), I can certainly understand the appeal of Sarah Palin to millions of women and men who largely agree with much of feminism, except hate the label, and hate the bizarro identity politics and policies rammed down our throat under threat of being called a misogynist.

    I agree with Jeralyn that McCain/Palin is a huge mistake.

    But I do think that "modern" feminists could do a great deal by examining why Palin is appealing and how they have chased women and men away from feminism.

    Palin is "safe". (none / 0) (#54)
    by Fabian on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 04:28:14 AM EST
    Hillary was considered "dangerous".

    I am not sure why this is.  I think part of it is packaging.  After all, Hillary wasn't launched from relative obscurity to national limelight over the weekend.  And Hillary wasn't campaigning to play second fiddle.

    So
    Palin - Gal Friday.
    Clinton - Meet your new boss.

    Which one seems more friendly, more benign?  The Boss' new attractive assistant or the woman who has been facing off against the media and the GOP for decades?

    As for having a beer - Hillary and I'm buying.
    I'd have a beer with Palin, only I'd bring my own bottle and pass on the glass.

    Parent

    ABC lands the first interview (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 08:59:03 PM EST
    of Gov. Palin--this week.

    MSNBC (none / 0) (#3)
    by Far Leftie on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:00:36 PM EST
    According to Drudge MSNBC is dropping Olberman and Matthews as anchors for the debates and election night...

    They both have lost their credibility (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by mogal on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:07:01 PM EST


    Parent
    Couldn't happen to a nicer couple of guys. (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Southsider on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:10:04 PM EST


    Parent
    This is great (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by mkb662 on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:13:19 PM EST
    It is great to hear that Olbermann and Matthews are being discarded.  Their coverage of sen. Clinton in the primary was toxic and the network will be better off with someone more knowledgeable about public affairsm, in my opinion, Olbermann should stick with football.

    Parent
    MSNBC is right to do this (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Realleft on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:39:22 PM EST
    Can't change the past, but they don't belong in anchor roles.

    Parent
    KO popped up on the halftime show (none / 0) (#11)
    by nycstray on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:14:40 PM EST
    HOW DARE HE!

    yes, I know he's a sports guy, but sheesh, is nothing sacred? Pick a chair and stay in it! If yer gonna do smear politics, then leave the sports free of yourself!

    Parent

    Drudge? (none / 0) (#12)
    by nycstray on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:15:41 PM EST
    what are the chances?

    Parent
    cspan (none / 0) (#4)
    by airwon on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:00:48 PM EST
    Cspan is playing a 2006 Alaskan Governor's Debate.

    The Pittsburgh Pitates have (none / 0) (#5)
    by ding7777 on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:01:13 PM EST
    clinched a 16th consecutive losing season, tying the professional sports record set by the 1933-48 Philadelphia Phillies

    No NFL, NHL or NBA team has had so many.

    .

    Go Bucs! lol

    MTV? Videos? (none / 0) (#18)
    by txpolitico67 on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:32:46 PM EST
    I don't see why they bother having video awards when they don't even play videos anymore.  MTV is pretty irrelevant to me these days, considering junk like "The Hills" and all those stupid reality shows.

    VH1 was a haven for a while but they jumped the shark too.  I remember HATING Pop Up Video.  

    Luckily when I feel the need to watch a video I just hop on YouTube.  The music is crap these days anyway so why would I want a visual to go with it?

    Long gone are the days of Friday Night Video Fights, The Basement Tapes, Duran Duran, a-ha, Culture Club, Madonna (80s boytoy Madonna) and 'til tuesday.

    He wasn't praising Palin (none / 0) (#24)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:45:07 PM EST
    He was bashing the media, saying none would challenge her. She will be smart enough and prepped enough to withstand their softball interviews. His point was anyone expecting her to fall apart during the interview would be disappointed because:

    That might (or might not) happen with real questioning, but she's not going to face that.


    He called her smart (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by tree on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:32:29 PM EST
    and politically skilled. That constitutes praise. AND he was bashing the media. One doesn't prelude the other. Is it really so terrible to admit that she is smart and politically skilled. Must we deny this? It seems counterproductive to do so.

    Parent
    Willie Brown says Palin is a game changer... (none / 0) (#25)
    by jerry on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:48:35 PM EST
    Speaking only about the game of politics, not about the policies, Brown has high praise for the choice of Sarah Palin.

    The Democrats are in trouble. Sarah Palin has totally changed the dynamics of this campaign.

    Period.

    Palin's speech to the GOP National Convention on Wednesday has set it up so that the Republicans are now on offense and Democrats are on defense. And we don't do well on defense.

    Suddenly, Palin and John McCain are the mavericks and Barack Obama and Joe Biden are the status quo, in a year when you don't want to be seen as defending the status quo.

    From taxes to oil drilling, Democrats are now going to have to start explaining their positions.

    Whenever you start having to explain things, you're on defense.

    There's a bit more at the link including speculation the press will treat her with the teflon star treatment previously given to Obama (previously to that, given to McCain.)  Ain't love fickle?

    To working class women in Uniontown (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:32:22 PM EST
    PA Palin didn't seal the deal:

    LA Times

    please repost this without quoting so much (none / 0) (#36)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:00:04 PM EST
    of the source article. We don't have space and there are copyright issues with reprinting articles. Please quote a short paragraph or two and then your comment. Thanks. I'll leave it up for a while to give you time to do it.

    You missed a great women's final, (none / 0) (#47)
    by sancho on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 12:03:13 AM EST
    Jeralyn. Two fit, powerful women expressing pure excellence. Watching these two women at the top of their game compete for the championship made me think what the Dem party decided it did not need to win. A great victory for Serena and women's sport too.

    Stuck in football shock (none / 0) (#57)
    by CST on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 09:10:08 AM EST
    Maybe we'll get lucky and Matt Cassell will turn into the next Tom Brady...

    I wish Tom.... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 10:49:47 AM EST
    a full recovery sometime around mid-February:)

    In the meantime, the eyes of all the Jets and Bills just got wider...this thing should be wide open.

    Parent

    Oh man (none / 0) (#59)
    by CST on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 11:26:39 AM EST
    I was cautiouisly optimistic until the second half started and when I saw he didn't come out I knew something seriously wrong was up.  With bad knee injuries there is always a stomach-turning shot of the leg/knee doing something it shouldn't.  You couldn't see it in any of the action shots, so I was optimistic that it wasn't too bad.  But sure enough in one of the print shots this morning there was an nausia-inducing picture of the knee doing something it shouldn't.

    Parent
    Sunday Night Open Thread | 54 comments (54 topical)

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